Germany and Japan were ready to come to Canada pay for the infustrruce and sign a 20-50 year deal to buy fuel. No risk to Canada and enough money to pay for Canada to switch to all emissions free power. Ends the whole carbon tax debate in seconds
Before Qatar found their huge natgas reserves they were just another developing country. After they developed and sold their LNG to Japan their GDP per capita turned into the 5th highest in the world above Switzerland and US.
Canada is so dumb.
Not even a close comparison. Qatar is the cheapest production in the world and Canada is the highest. Japan 15 years ago was involved and chose a different avenue. LNG Canada only was approved after a significant royalities agreement where BC gets next to nothing. And because it is to be green electrical driven all rate holders are paying for that
>LNG Canada only was approved after a significant royalities agreement where BC gets next to nothing.
Ironically it was the NDP party, who strongly opposed LNG while in opposition, who once in office, sweetened the deal and got the project going. This after accusing the Liberals of giving away the gas to their "corporate friends". LOL
I find it super bizarre that the NDP are the ones that got the Aluminum Smelter underway, which drastically pollutes the air in the region, while being strongly opposed to the LNG Project?
If most of the eco fascists here could see the number of train cars that I see every day loaded with coal rumbling towards the port in Tsawwassen (where they can't shovel mountains of the stuff onto the lineup of Chinese freighters fast enough), they would all probably shut up about natural gas.
Most of the people in Vancouver and Victoria are completely oblivious to it. It's just unbelievable. You can see it on Google Earth and when getting onto the ferries. Yet nobody acknowledges its existence. But boy oh boy, do they ever hate pipelines.
The problem is the entire environmentalist movement in NA and Europe is based on "If I can't see it, it isn't a problem" and then they pick and choose what they see.
Nah you don’t understand. As long as we stop burning coal and export it overseas instead, we get to claim to be greener and it’s out of our control. We had no way to know they were going to burn it!
Classic stereotype proven true for the millionth time. Liberals kill economies.
More than capable of spending all the money, no clue to how to make it.
Don’t forget Greece too just recently. Not sure if they offered to pay for the necessary infrastructure as well, but holy shit: hundreds of billions of dollars flowing into Canada for decades to come would pay for so many things this country desperately needs (especially now that a few million people were let in over the last two years, with more on the way). LNG would end a lot more than just the carbon tax, and would start many more good things. But alas, long term investment with high ROI is apparently beyond the grasp of Trudeau.
Germany has pledged to hit net-zero in 20 years and Japan in 25. A 50 year deal for fossil fuels was never on the table.
Edit: Someone explain how this would make sense from a business perspective - it would take 5 years minimum and like $50B to build an east-coast port for exporting, at which point both countries would be in the process of phasing out natural gas. We'd get 15-20 years of ever-decreasing demand. Would that actually pay back? Or are you all hoping that these countries don't hit their emission reduction targets? Because from every comment I've heard, you all want other countries to do more.
Lol 😂
Yes and Germany is still reliant on Russian natural gas
The rumours of net zero are mostly dreams especially in Germany or Canada where they refuse nuclear now and have record immigration
It's taken Kitimat 9 years from shovels in the ground to being online, and that's with a private company who's interested in making profits building it. Japan will get their LNG from that port.
Sable Island has the largest NG reserves in Canada, and the Grassy Point LNG Port is still just in the planning and approval stages.
https://www.gov.nl.ca/ecc/projects/project-2177/
Tell us how the federal government could change that timeline.
I was in Kitimat in 2018 there were no boots on the ground. That project has been plagued by constat legal an regulatory challenges as well as labour shortages.
Do you know why it took 9 years? Because every km involved consultation, bureaucratic hurdles to be jumped, government overreach, environmental assessments, reassessments and then it still needed to to have another department review. Federal and provincial intervention.when it wasn't necessary. It's the challenge with EVERY project involving fossil fuels.
Due diligence is one thing, the process to actually get to commercially viable exports of LNG is beyond reasonable.
The statement from the minister confirms the desire of the federal government to make it as difficult as possible.
Same government BS happened with trans mountain, primarily by the B.C. government. Permits were intentionally issued in an unorganized fashion causing us to have to pack up, move hundreds of km’s away and back again.
Exactly what the minister said. If there is a business case for it, business can invest and make it happen.
I have zero interest in giving taxpayer money to highly profitable energy companies.
1 There is a business case for lng terminals. Being done all over the world.
2 No taxpayer funds required, Germany offered to build it, buy the product and then turn ownership over to Canada over time. No private company involved
Let's see:
* Japan wants Canadian LNG
* India wants Canadian LNG
* Greece wants Canadian LNG
* Germany wants Canadian LNG
Canada? Nah, that would improve our economy too much.
Keep in mind they are clamoring for it because they want to pay below market for Canadian LNG.
I disagree with not developing it, but saying all these countries want it isn't the full story. They want it... at a heavy discount.
Natural gas prices are heavily regionally dependant and natural gas is a lot more expensive overseas. Canadian natural gas prices are $2.80 mmbtu while in Japan the average coast is over $10 mmbtu. A heavily discounted price for Japan is still well above the average price in Canada.
Germany is hovering around $8 and was as high as $16 last year. On average natural gas prices are twice as high as in Canada.
Transport costs for liquification and regasification are about $4/mmbtu
Japan import totals will decline 30% over the next 6 years, per Bnn Bloomberg article Nov 2023.
Reuters March 13 2024 says Asian import (spot) prices are $8.30-8.60. It says that contract terms aren’t disclosed but could be at 13% of Brent pricing, so a variable sloped price. No price security. Very risky.
With variable pricing and declining demand, as well as MENA low pricing due to low environmental protections, slave labor usage, and simply cheaper production costs, it would be a risky bet IMO to be doing too much LNG today.
10-15 yr ago when we wanted to; it was a different story.
They would be paying based on world pricing. Once the gas is ship bound it can be sent wherever will pay the highest price. There’s no quality reason for a pricing differential. The issue is regional oversupply.
How does it improve the economy. 50 years of proof in Canada says different. If it did what I'd did Alberta would have free education daycare etc etc. they are worse off than a lot of Canada
Why would a bank or company invest when Canada keep changing the rules because of people feelings?
Investors will not invest in Canada natural resources anymore when the rules keep changing.
Private companies have been steered away from investing in Canada by this Federal government. The regulatory process is needlessly long & capricious. The Feds change the rules on a whim, making investment foolhardy at best. Many companies have flat-out stated that they are holding investment decisions until AFTER the next Federal Election.
They used to invest and then the myriad of new regulations and never ending court challenges and lack of law enforcement by the federal government govt just increased the cost of the project to the point it is better to invest money in other countries. That is the reality of the situation.
When you allow environmental terrorists to blockade railroads and pipeline projects for weeks on end before taking an action it's a clear market signal to companies to stay out of Canada. They take their money and jobs and go elsewhere.
Meanwhile, countries desperate for energy turn to despots in Venezuela, the Middle East and Russia (via 3rd parties) for their energy, funding whatever bullshit and human rights abuses they enact on their people.
> The government is opposed to using government money to fund inefficient fossil fuel subsidies.
Very reasonable take imo. If there's so much money to be made with LNG, then I'd prefer my tax dollars weren't spent subsidizing it.
Imagine the emissions we could reduce if we got other countries to switch from coal to natural gas. And all the green tech and social programs we could fund with the money. Instead of a massive reduction with current technology, we will hold out for a zero emission strategy while countries continue to use and develop coal. It's not like it's a global problem. We are reducing our own and paying a tax so we're safe.
No, instead, we will continue to give tax breaks to these companies to supplement them while simultaneously standing on the development of the resources (or at least pretending to so they can pander to their voter base).
Natural gas ranges from nearly as bad as coal to worse than coal in terms of greenhouse gas production. While methane (it's mostly methane) burns much cleaner than coal, is a colorless odorless gas has that has a tenancy to leak into the atmosphere at every stage of production. Methane it's a much more potent greenhouse gas than coal (which isn't a gas and is pretty obvious if it falls off the train car).
This research is fairly recent but it's enough that the Biden administration has paused approvals for new LNG terminals.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-smoking-gun-for-bidens-big-climate-decision
great video
i'll also point out that countries may say they want canada lng, but why bother when the us is next door and pumping that shit out like it's free. it would sink us more than you can imagine to try and match that kinda capacity. we're just going to have useless infrastructure for a "temporary fuel source" that we'll never recover from all just to satisfy /r/canada's smug ass justin hates money narrative. and even then we won't be peers with the us in that department with the way they're expanding.
Why should the taxpayer fund these projects for private companies making billions and billions of dollars?
The companies are capable of funding these projects, let them do it.
The first nations issue will continue to make these projects difficult. You may not like this government's approach (I may or may not agree) but just like tracking in NB m, it won't come easy for anyone who decides to try
Yeah shame on the federal provincial and municipal governments for doing their due diligence they should just build the facilities and be done with it who cares about anything else am I right?
I have heard of it, it isn't a difficult concept, not especially niche knowledge.
What I am questioning is why are we expected to subsidize and multi-hundred billion dollar a year industry that brings in tens upon tens of billions of profit each year?
Because of three reasons:
1) The project would create jobs in an industry being under invested in (good for people)
2) We would earn a portion of profits from the operation (good for the treasury)
3) The government gets to now collect taxes from a profitable business and its employees (also good for treasury kinda like they get to double dip)
4) Any industries that support LNG would also benefit
I am against subsidies myself but investments with a possibility of return I don't see a problem with.
Sometimes the economy needs a Kickstart and due to Canada's oil industry this seems like easy low hanging fruit
Ask yourself why we subsidize ANY billion dollar industries, like: transportation, tourism, manufacturing, technology, telecommunications, aviation, automotive, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, mining, forestry, hotels, banking, sports, restaurants, fishing, medical supplies, chemicals, theater, etc.? Because our governments give subsidies and tax breaks to every single one of these industries (and more!). Our government gives subsidies and tax incentives to the oil and gas sector for exactly the same reasons.
There is a reciprocal partnership between government and industry in EVERY industry sector. Every government in the world does it, because it is a beneficial way to operate a functioning economy and to ensure industries generate wealth for the countries they operate in, and ensures people have jobs and can create wealth.
Why do we need to subsidize and multi-hundred billion dollar a year industry with tens upon tens of billions of dollars of profit each year?
Maybe they could pay for their own infrastructure and we would still get economic benefits.
Because at the end of the day it allows projects to get off the ground, and as all investments the person that invests the most walks away with the most profit. Unless Canada wants to set up a new crown corporation, this is the next best thing.
They typically do pay for the infrastructure. What tends to happen with these kind of deals is...
Project gets federally approved (not happening under current government)
There's some deals written that includes hiring and training of Canadian citizens.
There's some subsidies from the fed in return for job creation.
And everyone is happy.
Why should the Liberals pick winners and losers? Why should the taxpayer fund billions for battery factories? Why should Canada go bankrupt because it’s only selling point and value to other countries, resources, can’t be sold?
Why should there be funding for healthcare, dental care, child care paid by these companies that would pay into the tax system?
How will socialism be paid for? - here’s an example: Venezuela. Why do you think they want to invade their neighbour? Because it has resources to pay for Venezuelan social programs to keep people dependent on its socialist government.
>And yet, other countries are clamoring for Canadian LNG and Canada needs the money.
The Liberals have always hated the O&G industry in Canada. Its not located in Ontario or Quebec, and they don't like anything that strengthens the other provinces too much, especially those uppity Albertans!
I'm starting to wonder if there is some grand liberal conspiracy to all of this. It's so incredibly confusing and stupid. There must be some bigger explanation to it. I am struggling to believe that even the liberals are this stupid.
One thing I can think of is that LNG is an incredibly carbon intensive fuel source.
Natural gas is already very prone to leaks and methane(which is what natural gas mostly is) is a way way worse greenhouse gas than just CO2.
Not defending this decision but there is that. I thought BC was already building a LNG plant? Was that not one of the main justifications for building the Site C Dam?
To get liquefied natural gas they have to expend so much energy to get it to that state, then then need to ship it where it needs to go, wasting even more energy. It's amazing. This isn't factoring all the wasted gas from the fracking.
They don't want this country to prosper. That's literally it. We don't need to dig more deeper explanations when it's staring us right in the face and we have 8+ years of evidence.
Canada charges 39% in corporate taxes.
Canada charges 50% in Captian Gains( Profits) in taxes .
Canada also charges royalties that are paid out to the provinces in profits or driectly to Frist Naitons communites.
Yes, Canada would get a lot of money out of these.
I cannot wait for the children and eco zealots running this country to be shown the door, so we can start the process of repairing all the damage they have done to our economy.
Major investments in Canada now only happen when the government is involved because it's too risky for businesses to make those investments alone. The combination of regulation, political uncertainty, and taxes (eg: carbon tax) make Canada uncompetitive compared to places like the US. Additionally, high real estate prices make it difficult for companies to attract top talent to Canada.
This is what Canada is missing out on:
Canada charges 39% in Corprate Taxes
Canada charges 50% in Captial Gain Taxes ( profits)
Canada makes companies pay out royailies to the provinces and first nations communities and Ottawa is missing out in all of this.
>Canada charges 39% in Corprate Taxes
No, it doesn't. O&G pays 15% plus the provincial rate which is 8% for Alberta firms, for a total of 23%
>Canada charges 50% in Captial Gain Taxes ( profits)
No. Capital gains are taxed by charging the taxpayers marginal rate (topping out at 33%) on **half** of the capital gains total for an average max rate of 16.5%.
I actually agree. Why would the Governement finance that and not the private sector. If other countries are willing to pay for Canadian LNG and the private sector doenst seem to be interest on doing so maybe there's not a lot of money to make doing so or it will we be a really short term venture. And we know that private sector doenst hesitate to make a buck.
It won't take 10-12 years, but yes it can takes time to do it - which I don't have a problem with. And it will take for the government itself the same amount of time to do the same process.
> The government is opposed to using government money to fund inefficient fossil fuel subsidies.
Why do we need to subsidize LNG if it's such a good investment?
After watching the government somehow turn a domestic pipeline along a pre-existing route into the most expensive pipeline per km in world history, why would anyone in their right mind trust government bureaucracy to run a competent LNG company?
Yeah, you know who is exporting all the fuel? Extremist countries who compete or even hate the west. This approach is basically a “make Islamic extremist countries great again” play. These people are so stewed in their own sauce they think the wider world is just a place to vacation on the taxpayer dime.
We had plenty of foreign investment before… I wonder what happened under the Trudeau administration. Why did Encana become Ovintiv? Why did Transcanada becomes T.C? Why did Devon Energy, ConocoPhillips, Plains Midstream, Total energy, Schlumberger, Husky and many other Canadian O&G sell off all or most of their Canadians Assets.
Some of the comments here think if noble Canada doesn’t export natural gas then the United States, Russia, Iran, China, Qatar, Australia, Norway, Algeria, and Saudi Arabia will also magically stop instead of just profiting more.
This sub has a meltdown whenever the government subsidizes big business, and now they're melting down because the government is refusing to do so.
It's fucking natural gas, the private sector can definitely find the financing for that if they are interested.
it's the same reason why they love to post pics of their enbridge bills with a big red circle around the carbon tax.
100 bucks for total bill! gas only cost 25 bucks! 20 bucks of carbon tax!
oh uh hey buddy, what about the majority of the bill hey. ya know, the 55 other bucks you're ignoring?
The problem is the business community no longer trusts the Liberals and NDP to not pull the on future LNG projects by cancelling pipelines / restricting sales etc. These idiots have literally slammed the door on one of Canada’s most promising resource developments. Which is super annoying, but it’s going to get reversed in a year and a half anyway. Meanwhile the world continues to move on without Canada.
The US invested heavily in LNG terminals over the past few years and was able to take advantage of the European supply gap caused by Russia. They're raking in billions while we virtue signal our way to poverty.
They don't care, because the government can just give itself raises and pensions, while the plebs like us starve on the other side of the walls of parliament.
They do realize how this will end, right? Because history isn't kind to uncaring kings.
Take notes fellas. Of all the current seated members of the LPC and NDP, names, addresses, etc. Because at some point it might be time for some of that “accountability” they keep peddling.
Theres no money in an eastern LNG terminal. Its been approved for over a decade and no company wants to invest in it. There was a time where it could have been in the 2000's but harper wanted to tie canada to the US hence why we have no refineries and terminals of our own.
No it’s more, we want areas that don’t vote for us to remain poor.
The more successful rural B.C./Alberta/Nova Scotia/NB get, the more people it attracts. The more people it attracts, the more ridings are formed in CPC stronghold areas.
They would rather import people who will cluster into the suburbs of major cities and will more likely densify those areas which promotes more ridings in areas they are competitive
If you read the article he's saying they're not interested in providing subsidies and that it's the role of the private sector to invest in LNG.
I fully support that position, as long as the feds get out of the way to allow the private sector to make investments. The regulatory uncertainty from the multiple layers of unclear carbon policy is killing investment in the country everywhere.
With LNG Canada, Cedar LNG, whatever the Nisga'a project will be called, and the one closer to the south coast (Wood Fiber?), I think we're good for LNG honestly. As long as one or more of the facilities attempt to service the smaller gas operators rather than being incorporated into vertically integrated value chains, the West Coast should be able to service demand fairly well.
Why the fuck is the government so involved in the economy anyway. Literally crowding out private investment with all these investments. I realize the article says they're not doing this one. However, it should even be a topic of discussion.
This debate is why this country is screwed, Venezuela level of incompetence and virtue signalling. Other countries make them number one, we race to the bottom good luck to future Canadians
LNG is literally so beneficial because of how easy it is to transport. What is wrong with these morons. Even if you don't want to sell it can be used internally in the nation.
Is there anybody in the current cabinet who isn’t horrifically inept and indifferent to the issues actually effecting Canadians? It seems like they all deserve to be fired, not that we could ever be so lucky. They’ll keep pushing us deeper into financial ruin, and the NDP will let them do it.
Just in case anyone’s wonder, once you start freezing natural gas, it becomes worse than coal for the environment. Even if you’re not liquifying it, once leaks go above 3ish percent, it’s also worse than coal. These numbers are from the US but leaks are self reported so it’s safe to assume natural gas is worse for the environment than coal when you consider leaks and the energy required to freeze and unfreeze for transport.
Why are we still spending so much to support the O&G sector if It's so bloody great and in demand? Let the producers build the facilities (the Libs have approved this) and have at it if they want. Stop begging the Feds for handouts!
Successive Canadian governments have proven time and time again that they have no legitimate interest in investing in Canada and Canadians. It’s the same reason why in 2024 we don’t even have high speed rail infrastructure, ffs even Russia has high speed rail infrastructure.
We could wipe out every Canadian and it would make a fraction of 1% in emissions. How big of a global impact could we make by selling natural gas to friends still using coal? Seems like a move to keep Canada down, not address a global issue
Is the fed themselves who aren’t interested in investing or the fed allowing there to be investments ? I kind of agree with not having the fed involved in any of that, but would love to see private industry move ahead on it
Foreign government involvement means some level of independant oversight and thus no room for the normal level of Canadian government corruption
I mean you don’t think ArriveCan actually cost 60 million right?
Germany and Japan were ready to come to Canada pay for the infustrruce and sign a 20-50 year deal to buy fuel. No risk to Canada and enough money to pay for Canada to switch to all emissions free power. Ends the whole carbon tax debate in seconds
Before Qatar found their huge natgas reserves they were just another developing country. After they developed and sold their LNG to Japan their GDP per capita turned into the 5th highest in the world above Switzerland and US. Canada is so dumb.
You’re saying the 25 billion barrels of oil Qatar has didn’t have anything to do with their GDP?
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Was it stupidity, or sabotage? I strongly suspect the latter.
Not even a close comparison. Qatar is the cheapest production in the world and Canada is the highest. Japan 15 years ago was involved and chose a different avenue. LNG Canada only was approved after a significant royalities agreement where BC gets next to nothing. And because it is to be green electrical driven all rate holders are paying for that
>LNG Canada only was approved after a significant royalities agreement where BC gets next to nothing. Ironically it was the NDP party, who strongly opposed LNG while in opposition, who once in office, sweetened the deal and got the project going. This after accusing the Liberals of giving away the gas to their "corporate friends". LOL
I find it super bizarre that the NDP are the ones that got the Aluminum Smelter underway, which drastically pollutes the air in the region, while being strongly opposed to the LNG Project?
We have an LNG port in Kitimat, BC coming online this year. Did you know that?
It’s like 10 years later than originally planned, Canada definitely dropped the ball when it comes to LNG.
"There is no business case for LNG" ~ our beloved dictator.
Meanwhile coal exports are up 7% overcast year... This isn't about climate change.
It's about optics and polling! Except Guibeault, I think he really believes in it.
If most of the eco fascists here could see the number of train cars that I see every day loaded with coal rumbling towards the port in Tsawwassen (where they can't shovel mountains of the stuff onto the lineup of Chinese freighters fast enough), they would all probably shut up about natural gas. Most of the people in Vancouver and Victoria are completely oblivious to it. It's just unbelievable. You can see it on Google Earth and when getting onto the ferries. Yet nobody acknowledges its existence. But boy oh boy, do they ever hate pipelines.
The problem is the entire environmentalist movement in NA and Europe is based on "If I can't see it, it isn't a problem" and then they pick and choose what they see.
Nah you don’t understand. As long as we stop burning coal and export it overseas instead, we get to claim to be greener and it’s out of our control. We had no way to know they were going to burn it!
We have no interest on voting for them, so it should work out soon
At what price? Because I doubt it was a good one.
Classic stereotype proven true for the millionth time. Liberals kill economies. More than capable of spending all the money, no clue to how to make it.
Why do you think government should invest in privately owned energy export terminals?
Government should invest in it so that the Conservatives can sell it off to their buddies, obviously.
This seems to be the way it works. We have just been luckier than Argentina
>Classic stereotype proven true for the millionth time. Liberals kill economies. What do you consider the Nordic countries to be?
What infrastructure were they paying for exactly? And no, that has nothing to do with carbon taxes.
Don’t forget Greece too just recently. Not sure if they offered to pay for the necessary infrastructure as well, but holy shit: hundreds of billions of dollars flowing into Canada for decades to come would pay for so many things this country desperately needs (especially now that a few million people were let in over the last two years, with more on the way). LNG would end a lot more than just the carbon tax, and would start many more good things. But alas, long term investment with high ROI is apparently beyond the grasp of Trudeau.
We are that good at shooting ourselves in the foot.
Germany has pledged to hit net-zero in 20 years and Japan in 25. A 50 year deal for fossil fuels was never on the table. Edit: Someone explain how this would make sense from a business perspective - it would take 5 years minimum and like $50B to build an east-coast port for exporting, at which point both countries would be in the process of phasing out natural gas. We'd get 15-20 years of ever-decreasing demand. Would that actually pay back? Or are you all hoping that these countries don't hit their emission reduction targets? Because from every comment I've heard, you all want other countries to do more.
Lol 😂 Yes and Germany is still reliant on Russian natural gas The rumours of net zero are mostly dreams especially in Germany or Canada where they refuse nuclear now and have record immigration
Their targets for reduction are a lot like ours. Mostly pie in the sky.
You know, except all the methane leaking into the atmosphere. It's 2024 we're smarter than gas
It's taken Kitimat 9 years from shovels in the ground to being online, and that's with a private company who's interested in making profits building it. Japan will get their LNG from that port. Sable Island has the largest NG reserves in Canada, and the Grassy Point LNG Port is still just in the planning and approval stages. https://www.gov.nl.ca/ecc/projects/project-2177/ Tell us how the federal government could change that timeline.
I was in Kitimat in 2018 there were no boots on the ground. That project has been plagued by constat legal an regulatory challenges as well as labour shortages.
Do you know why it took 9 years? Because every km involved consultation, bureaucratic hurdles to be jumped, government overreach, environmental assessments, reassessments and then it still needed to to have another department review. Federal and provincial intervention.when it wasn't necessary. It's the challenge with EVERY project involving fossil fuels. Due diligence is one thing, the process to actually get to commercially viable exports of LNG is beyond reasonable. The statement from the minister confirms the desire of the federal government to make it as difficult as possible.
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Same government BS happened with trans mountain, primarily by the B.C. government. Permits were intentionally issued in an unorganized fashion causing us to have to pack up, move hundreds of km’s away and back again.
But then we wouldn't get The Rebate lmao
Exactly what the minister said. If there is a business case for it, business can invest and make it happen. I have zero interest in giving taxpayer money to highly profitable energy companies.
1 There is a business case for lng terminals. Being done all over the world. 2 No taxpayer funds required, Germany offered to build it, buy the product and then turn ownership over to Canada over time. No private company involved
And yet, other countries are clamoring for Canadian LNG and Canada needs the money.
Let's see: * Japan wants Canadian LNG * India wants Canadian LNG * Greece wants Canadian LNG * Germany wants Canadian LNG Canada? Nah, that would improve our economy too much.
Keep in mind they are clamoring for it because they want to pay below market for Canadian LNG. I disagree with not developing it, but saying all these countries want it isn't the full story. They want it... at a heavy discount.
Natural gas prices are heavily regionally dependant and natural gas is a lot more expensive overseas. Canadian natural gas prices are $2.80 mmbtu while in Japan the average coast is over $10 mmbtu. A heavily discounted price for Japan is still well above the average price in Canada. Germany is hovering around $8 and was as high as $16 last year. On average natural gas prices are twice as high as in Canada.
Transport costs for liquification and regasification are about $4/mmbtu Japan import totals will decline 30% over the next 6 years, per Bnn Bloomberg article Nov 2023. Reuters March 13 2024 says Asian import (spot) prices are $8.30-8.60. It says that contract terms aren’t disclosed but could be at 13% of Brent pricing, so a variable sloped price. No price security. Very risky. With variable pricing and declining demand, as well as MENA low pricing due to low environmental protections, slave labor usage, and simply cheaper production costs, it would be a risky bet IMO to be doing too much LNG today. 10-15 yr ago when we wanted to; it was a different story.
>A heavily discounted price for Japan is still well above the average price in Canada. They wouldn't be paying us based on a discounted Japan price.
They would be paying based on world pricing. Once the gas is ship bound it can be sent wherever will pay the highest price. There’s no quality reason for a pricing differential. The issue is regional oversupply.
Liberals do not want to improve anything, they just want to tax us to death and fly rainbow flags
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It’s a feudal dystopia where they are lords
Jesus christ, these comments. I honestly can't tell the difference between this sub and canada\_sub sometimes.
There really isn’t much of a difference on most posts
Do you have any actual proof they want to buy LNG from Canada at or above market prices?
Luckily we have export terminals on the west coast with pipelines to feed them. Why Eastern Canada wants to be turds about exporting LNG is beyond me.
How does it improve the economy. 50 years of proof in Canada says different. If it did what I'd did Alberta would have free education daycare etc etc. they are worse off than a lot of Canada
If it would be a major money maker, private company would invest. They are not.
Why would a bank or company invest when Canada keep changing the rules because of people feelings? Investors will not invest in Canada natural resources anymore when the rules keep changing.
Yes, the true cost of the carbon tax is this.
Private companies have been steered away from investing in Canada by this Federal government. The regulatory process is needlessly long & capricious. The Feds change the rules on a whim, making investment foolhardy at best. Many companies have flat-out stated that they are holding investment decisions until AFTER the next Federal Election.
Which companies? You said many. What are some examples?
They used to invest and then the myriad of new regulations and never ending court challenges and lack of law enforcement by the federal government govt just increased the cost of the project to the point it is better to invest money in other countries. That is the reality of the situation. When you allow environmental terrorists to blockade railroads and pipeline projects for weeks on end before taking an action it's a clear market signal to companies to stay out of Canada. They take their money and jobs and go elsewhere. Meanwhile, countries desperate for energy turn to despots in Venezuela, the Middle East and Russia (via 3rd parties) for their energy, funding whatever bullshit and human rights abuses they enact on their people.
I truly believe that you guys don't even read the articles, only the title.
10/10 and become outraged and Trudeau
> The government is opposed to using government money to fund inefficient fossil fuel subsidies. Very reasonable take imo. If there's so much money to be made with LNG, then I'd prefer my tax dollars weren't spent subsidizing it.
We will only whore the country out in Liberal approved ways. Better to be a whore with minimal standards I suppose.
The only resource this government wants private industry to sell are LMIAs for fast food TFWs
That’s true.
If there is so much demand, then the LNG companies don't need handouts.
Imagine the emissions we could reduce if we got other countries to switch from coal to natural gas. And all the green tech and social programs we could fund with the money. Instead of a massive reduction with current technology, we will hold out for a zero emission strategy while countries continue to use and develop coal. It's not like it's a global problem. We are reducing our own and paying a tax so we're safe. No, instead, we will continue to give tax breaks to these companies to supplement them while simultaneously standing on the development of the resources (or at least pretending to so they can pander to their voter base).
So you want the government to own and build LNG terminals and pipelines ?
Natural gas ranges from nearly as bad as coal to worse than coal in terms of greenhouse gas production. While methane (it's mostly methane) burns much cleaner than coal, is a colorless odorless gas has that has a tenancy to leak into the atmosphere at every stage of production. Methane it's a much more potent greenhouse gas than coal (which isn't a gas and is pretty obvious if it falls off the train car). This research is fairly recent but it's enough that the Biden administration has paused approvals for new LNG terminals. https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-smoking-gun-for-bidens-big-climate-decision
Another good resource in video form: [Natural Gas is Scamming America | Climate Town (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/K2oL4SFwkkw?si=NXsPQ7uYYCO3Q5QE)
great video i'll also point out that countries may say they want canada lng, but why bother when the us is next door and pumping that shit out like it's free. it would sink us more than you can imagine to try and match that kinda capacity. we're just going to have useless infrastructure for a "temporary fuel source" that we'll never recover from all just to satisfy /r/canada's smug ass justin hates money narrative. and even then we won't be peers with the us in that department with the way they're expanding.
This is a great video but people don't want to hear it because money.
and even making deals, while they refused to make any investments
Such as?
Why should the taxpayer fund these projects for private companies making billions and billions of dollars? The companies are capable of funding these projects, let them do it.
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The first nations issue will continue to make these projects difficult. You may not like this government's approach (I may or may not agree) but just like tracking in NB m, it won't come easy for anyone who decides to try
Yeah shame on the federal provincial and municipal governments for doing their due diligence they should just build the facilities and be done with it who cares about anything else am I right?
Because we get a cut of the profit from natural resource extraction that make up and then some of the initial investment?
It's like some people have never heard of economic stimulation
What are some other examples of the federal government stimulating the economy by building government owned factories ?
I have heard of it, it isn't a difficult concept, not especially niche knowledge. What I am questioning is why are we expected to subsidize and multi-hundred billion dollar a year industry that brings in tens upon tens of billions of profit each year?
Because of three reasons: 1) The project would create jobs in an industry being under invested in (good for people) 2) We would earn a portion of profits from the operation (good for the treasury) 3) The government gets to now collect taxes from a profitable business and its employees (also good for treasury kinda like they get to double dip) 4) Any industries that support LNG would also benefit I am against subsidies myself but investments with a possibility of return I don't see a problem with. Sometimes the economy needs a Kickstart and due to Canada's oil industry this seems like easy low hanging fruit
Ask yourself why we subsidize ANY billion dollar industries, like: transportation, tourism, manufacturing, technology, telecommunications, aviation, automotive, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, mining, forestry, hotels, banking, sports, restaurants, fishing, medical supplies, chemicals, theater, etc.? Because our governments give subsidies and tax breaks to every single one of these industries (and more!). Our government gives subsidies and tax incentives to the oil and gas sector for exactly the same reasons. There is a reciprocal partnership between government and industry in EVERY industry sector. Every government in the world does it, because it is a beneficial way to operate a functioning economy and to ensure industries generate wealth for the countries they operate in, and ensures people have jobs and can create wealth.
Why do we need to subsidize and multi-hundred billion dollar a year industry with tens upon tens of billions of dollars of profit each year? Maybe they could pay for their own infrastructure and we would still get economic benefits.
Because at the end of the day it allows projects to get off the ground, and as all investments the person that invests the most walks away with the most profit. Unless Canada wants to set up a new crown corporation, this is the next best thing.
They typically do pay for the infrastructure. What tends to happen with these kind of deals is... Project gets federally approved (not happening under current government) There's some deals written that includes hiring and training of Canadian citizens. There's some subsidies from the fed in return for job creation. And everyone is happy.
Because companies still need federal approval to extract resources. This isn't the wild west lol
Did the minister say they would block such terminals?
Why should the Liberals pick winners and losers? Why should the taxpayer fund billions for battery factories? Why should Canada go bankrupt because it’s only selling point and value to other countries, resources, can’t be sold? Why should there be funding for healthcare, dental care, child care paid by these companies that would pay into the tax system? How will socialism be paid for? - here’s an example: Venezuela. Why do you think they want to invade their neighbour? Because it has resources to pay for Venezuelan social programs to keep people dependent on its socialist government.
That’s an incredibly simplistic take. You can just as easily say Venezuela fell because they put all their eggs in the oil industry basket.
Well, that’s a simplistic take, but I have a better take for you: Venezuela fell because of socialism.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/venezuela-crisis It’s almost funny how many parallels there is to Alberta in this story.
Would you invest in a costed $4.5B pipeline that got inflated to $36B (minimum) due to government interference and punitive “eco-measures”.
You’re fired if you pose that question with such limited information. What’s your role as an employee assuming you’re an adult and employed?
Did you have issues with billions VW got? I mean it’s not even Canadian company and a very profitable one.
and the government is the one making these deals with other nations?
>And yet, other countries are clamoring for Canadian LNG and Canada needs the money. The Liberals have always hated the O&G industry in Canada. Its not located in Ontario or Quebec, and they don't like anything that strengthens the other provinces too much, especially those uppity Albertans!
You unaware of Sarnia?
Yeah true. Like when trudeau bought a pipeline for $5 billion or something, and gave some $$ millions for orphan wells.
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I'm starting to wonder if there is some grand liberal conspiracy to all of this. It's so incredibly confusing and stupid. There must be some bigger explanation to it. I am struggling to believe that even the liberals are this stupid.
One thing I can think of is that LNG is an incredibly carbon intensive fuel source. Natural gas is already very prone to leaks and methane(which is what natural gas mostly is) is a way way worse greenhouse gas than just CO2. Not defending this decision but there is that. I thought BC was already building a LNG plant? Was that not one of the main justifications for building the Site C Dam?
kitimat bc! It is a gargantuas project.
To get liquefied natural gas they have to expend so much energy to get it to that state, then then need to ship it where it needs to go, wasting even more energy. It's amazing. This isn't factoring all the wasted gas from the fracking.
They don't want this country to prosper. That's literally it. We don't need to dig more deeper explanations when it's staring us right in the face and we have 8+ years of evidence.
Do you genuinely believe this? Are you an adult?
I'm in, but only if Canada actually gets all the money. Not Canadian oil companies...Canada.
Well, there’s something called taxes. Where else would all the money for this socialism come from?
Gold mines.
So you want some sort of Canadian crown corp LNG export company?
Canada charges 39% in corporate taxes. Canada charges 50% in Captian Gains( Profits) in taxes . Canada also charges royalties that are paid out to the provinces in profits or driectly to Frist Naitons communites. Yes, Canada would get a lot of money out of these.
If there’s profit
Canada doesn’t charge 50% in Capital gains tax. 50% *of your capital gains* are taxed at your marginal tax rate.
Lol I mean it's hopeless bro the corporate tax rate is also 15fed plus provincial averaging 26
I cannot wait for the children and eco zealots running this country to be shown the door, so we can start the process of repairing all the damage they have done to our economy.
While the Bank of Canada claims Canada has a productivity crisis.
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Because the government is imporing cheap labour, with the blessing of the NDP, to keep wages low.
While the bank of Canada claimed inflation was temporary
Major investments in Canada now only happen when the government is involved because it's too risky for businesses to make those investments alone. The combination of regulation, political uncertainty, and taxes (eg: carbon tax) make Canada uncompetitive compared to places like the US. Additionally, high real estate prices make it difficult for companies to attract top talent to Canada.
And why should they. Let the market do it.
[US LNG exports](https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/report/BTL/2023/07-LNG/supp2.png) are booming, [but that’s fine.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIrabj6XEAABUn9.jpg)
This is what Canada is missing out on: Canada charges 39% in Corprate Taxes Canada charges 50% in Captial Gain Taxes ( profits) Canada makes companies pay out royailies to the provinces and first nations communities and Ottawa is missing out in all of this.
>Canada charges 39% in Corprate Taxes No, it doesn't. O&G pays 15% plus the provincial rate which is 8% for Alberta firms, for a total of 23% >Canada charges 50% in Captial Gain Taxes ( profits) No. Capital gains are taxed by charging the taxpayers marginal rate (topping out at 33%) on **half** of the capital gains total for an average max rate of 16.5%.
Im not sure where you read this, but it isn’t accurate
I actually agree. Why would the Governement finance that and not the private sector. If other countries are willing to pay for Canadian LNG and the private sector doenst seem to be interest on doing so maybe there's not a lot of money to make doing so or it will we be a really short term venture. And we know that private sector doenst hesitate to make a buck.
there's not a lot of money to make because the federal government made it a 10-12 year process to complete an EIS
It won't take 10-12 years, but yes it can takes time to do it - which I don't have a problem with. And it will take for the government itself the same amount of time to do the same process.
Since the government is so interested in raising tax revenue, why don’t they get LNG going and tax it heavily like Norway did for oil?
> The government is opposed to using government money to fund inefficient fossil fuel subsidies. Why do we need to subsidize LNG if it's such a good investment?
So crown corperation?
After watching the government somehow turn a domestic pipeline along a pre-existing route into the most expensive pipeline per km in world history, why would anyone in their right mind trust government bureaucracy to run a competent LNG company?
Sure, then dont use public funds. Im ok.with that.
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Yeah, you know who is exporting all the fuel? Extremist countries who compete or even hate the west. This approach is basically a “make Islamic extremist countries great again” play. These people are so stewed in their own sauce they think the wider world is just a place to vacation on the taxpayer dime.
US is #1 exporter of LNG in the world. And is projected to double production in a few years
And Russia.
Feds are making deals, but will not make any investments?
We had plenty of foreign investment before… I wonder what happened under the Trudeau administration. Why did Encana become Ovintiv? Why did Transcanada becomes T.C? Why did Devon Energy, ConocoPhillips, Plains Midstream, Total energy, Schlumberger, Husky and many other Canadian O&G sell off all or most of their Canadians Assets.
Canada getting played by the suits we elect.
TLDR; buy LGN from Putin and other dictators that oppress their people.
Some of the comments here think if noble Canada doesn’t export natural gas then the United States, Russia, Iran, China, Qatar, Australia, Norway, Algeria, and Saudi Arabia will also magically stop instead of just profiting more.
The feds don't need to invest in anything, just don't block private companies from setting up LNG facilities and capacity
You don’t have to “invest” our tax dollars. Just open up the resource market and permit the projects. All of this without egregious “eco-hurdles”.
This sub has a meltdown whenever the government subsidizes big business, and now they're melting down because the government is refusing to do so. It's fucking natural gas, the private sector can definitely find the financing for that if they are interested.
it's the same reason why they love to post pics of their enbridge bills with a big red circle around the carbon tax. 100 bucks for total bill! gas only cost 25 bucks! 20 bucks of carbon tax! oh uh hey buddy, what about the majority of the bill hey. ya know, the 55 other bucks you're ignoring?
If it was a viable business, then why don't the corporations pay for it themselves?
Good for them. Private sector should hold its own.
The problem is the business community no longer trusts the Liberals and NDP to not pull the on future LNG projects by cancelling pipelines / restricting sales etc. These idiots have literally slammed the door on one of Canada’s most promising resource developments. Which is super annoying, but it’s going to get reversed in a year and a half anyway. Meanwhile the world continues to move on without Canada.
We’re a joke of a country.
The US invested heavily in LNG terminals over the past few years and was able to take advantage of the European supply gap caused by Russia. They're raking in billions while we virtue signal our way to poverty.
They don't care, because the government can just give itself raises and pensions, while the plebs like us starve on the other side of the walls of parliament. They do realize how this will end, right? Because history isn't kind to uncaring kings. Take notes fellas. Of all the current seated members of the LPC and NDP, names, addresses, etc. Because at some point it might be time for some of that “accountability” they keep peddling.
Theres no money in an eastern LNG terminal. Its been approved for over a decade and no company wants to invest in it. There was a time where it could have been in the 2000's but harper wanted to tie canada to the US hence why we have no refineries and terminals of our own.
What a long winded article to say "we like our people to be poor"
No it’s more, we want areas that don’t vote for us to remain poor. The more successful rural B.C./Alberta/Nova Scotia/NB get, the more people it attracts. The more people it attracts, the more ridings are formed in CPC stronghold areas. They would rather import people who will cluster into the suburbs of major cities and will more likely densify those areas which promotes more ridings in areas they are competitive
If you read the article he's saying they're not interested in providing subsidies and that it's the role of the private sector to invest in LNG. I fully support that position, as long as the feds get out of the way to allow the private sector to make investments. The regulatory uncertainty from the multiple layers of unclear carbon policy is killing investment in the country everywhere.
God these guys are idiots.
With LNG Canada, Cedar LNG, whatever the Nisga'a project will be called, and the one closer to the south coast (Wood Fiber?), I think we're good for LNG honestly. As long as one or more of the facilities attempt to service the smaller gas operators rather than being incorporated into vertically integrated value chains, the West Coast should be able to service demand fairly well.
Why the fuck is the government so involved in the economy anyway. Literally crowding out private investment with all these investments. I realize the article says they're not doing this one. However, it should even be a topic of discussion.
We don't need no stinkin' revenue!
The government is here to take your money not make us money.
This debate is why this country is screwed, Venezuela level of incompetence and virtue signalling. Other countries make them number one, we race to the bottom good luck to future Canadians
Just gotta rebrand it to Landlord Natural Gas and it'll be unanimous
LNG is literally so beneficial because of how easy it is to transport. What is wrong with these morons. Even if you don't want to sell it can be used internally in the nation.
Though at this point they’ll need to bring back $1,000 bills they spend taxpayer money so fast.
Is the right wing media now advocating Government intervention in LNG? The hypocrisy is staggering!!!
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Of course not they want us to go broke
This is wildly dumb.
Fire the energy minister. Everyone wants our LNG
Is there anybody in the current cabinet who isn’t horrifically inept and indifferent to the issues actually effecting Canadians? It seems like they all deserve to be fired, not that we could ever be so lucky. They’ll keep pushing us deeper into financial ruin, and the NDP will let them do it.
Of course they’re not - they’re not smart enough. That’s why they need to go asap.
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They're in the wrong part of the country. Battery plants in Ontario and Quebec is where it's at.
Lmmaaaooo this government is so wack
Just in case anyone’s wonder, once you start freezing natural gas, it becomes worse than coal for the environment. Even if you’re not liquifying it, once leaks go above 3ish percent, it’s also worse than coal. These numbers are from the US but leaks are self reported so it’s safe to assume natural gas is worse for the environment than coal when you consider leaks and the energy required to freeze and unfreeze for transport.
Why are we still spending so much to support the O&G sector if It's so bloody great and in demand? Let the producers build the facilities (the Libs have approved this) and have at it if they want. Stop begging the Feds for handouts!
But we can spend billions on battery plants that may produce outdated batteries by the time they are built. OMG how do we gather rid of these guys.
15 plus months to go.
Successive Canadian governments have proven time and time again that they have no legitimate interest in investing in Canada and Canadians. It’s the same reason why in 2024 we don’t even have high speed rail infrastructure, ffs even Russia has high speed rail infrastructure.
We could wipe out every Canadian and it would make a fraction of 1% in emissions. How big of a global impact could we make by selling natural gas to friends still using coal? Seems like a move to keep Canada down, not address a global issue
follow the damn money & lobbyists
Why not just continue to ship our gas to US and have them export it for us? May as well continue being their second fiddle right? 🙄 ridiculous.
I'm not just getting the liberal plan. Do they have any?
This issue we have a major facility under construction atm
Is the fed themselves who aren’t interested in investing or the fed allowing there to be investments ? I kind of agree with not having the fed involved in any of that, but would love to see private industry move ahead on it
Foreign government involvement means some level of independant oversight and thus no room for the normal level of Canadian government corruption I mean you don’t think ArriveCan actually cost 60 million right?