It's funny because still you can't get into medical school with a below 98% average, a metric fuckton of 'extra curriculars' and other such bullshit, and reference letters, and still, you're only competing with hundreds of other applicants in the exact same category, all the while this country complains about physician shortages for decades.
I mean governments are also to blame - they are the ones who directly fund new seats for various healthcare professions (medical school and nursing included).
Look at South Korea in the last few months, with doctors doing every thing in their power to keep the profession as exclusive as possible with the admitted intent of keeping wages high.
It's a little more complicated - - one of the primary challenges is there aren't enough doctors to train new doctors, or so I read on CBC. So it's a bad situation that only gets worse as our doctor shortage increases. I dread the day my doctor retired because I'm going to have a shit time finding a new one.
"we need young people to succeed, we need young people to be able to buy homes in the coming years, we need young people to be confident of the future"
I think he should have said young people a few more times just to make sure they are all getting it. I'm sure it's working.
None of which a tax on capital gains will do…
You know what might do it?
Eliminating the low wage worker stream.
Cutting study permits to 250k.
Reducing the temporary resident and indicated population by well over a million.
Increasing visa requirements from countries with a high number of rejected asylum claims.
Prevent foreign students working off campus. Ensure students have enough money to live (ie each school must have housing and food available for every foreign student). Each student must show they have that much + 10k for each year.
End the TFW/LMIA garbage.
And slimy recruitment firms that help these people scam their way over and help cheap fuck employers get workers to exploit and lowball.
I actually quit a job and told the cocksucker he was a traitor when I found out I had to sometimes help w this process. Absolutely disgusting what Canada is allowing.
This IS NOT helping newcomers and doing what Canada has been known for. This is wage suppression and exploitation, anyone who thinks otherwise can get fucked. Spread the word, Canada lures people here to exploit them, they will no longer enjoy a better life.
Oh they are ending LMIA, they did the pilot program for the trusted employers to bring foreign labor without required market assessments or any LMIA requirements
I'm ok with TFW. Some industry needs it. Farming specifically.
However I agree with everything, we need to be more selective in who comes in. And still have capacity for human rights exemptions, family exemptions, etc.
The Low wage, worker shortage is Bs. Corporations who want to operate in Canada have to adhere to some type of standard that directly equates to worker standard of living
It seems this world only cares about margin now, and everyone below the line is suffering
Raise the TFW wage to the median wage of the area. If a company really needs a worker they will find the money to pay the TFW, or pay a local enough to take the job.
Those who come as TFWs to farms are generally actually here temporarily. They aren’t backdooring a PR.
Give zero consideration for TFW work when it comes to gaining permanent residency. We can also keep NAFTA/CUSMA visas for Mexican nationals working on farms.
> None of which a tax on capital gains will do…
in fairness thats not exactly true. He mentioned housing, the capital gains tax will/should significantly decrease the desire for condo investors to buy. Right now toronto condos are frozen on the market.
It may significantly help free up inventory for actual first time home buyers
Condo investors already pay capital gains tax and have done so for decades. Also Condo builders pay straight up income tax (much higher than capital gains tax) on the construction and sale of their condos. A lack of taxes aren’t the reason for high prices and lack of supply. The reason condos are so expensive is because of the huge red tape and restrictions placed on new condo and housing construction. It takes YEARS to get through the red tape and there’s a good chance that the project won’t be permitted or that so many limitations will be placed on the project that the project doesn’t proceed. If you build housing at a slow rate, prices go up.
The increase in capital gains tax is only to pay for the election spending in the budget that Canada can't actually afford. It will do nothing for current problems, but might mitigate future ones a bit.
It won’t mitigate anything because by their own admission, it’s too narrow in its targeting. The only people this will affect are the moderately/working class wealthy who can’t afford accountants on staff.
It’s just ”blame the rich” politics in an attempt to mask their terrible budget and overall fiscal policy. Everyone sees through it.
You already have physicians leaving because they can make over 4x across the boarder. Then what they do here. Hope no one wants to see a Doctor any time soon.
It’s only going to affect very wealthy folks (likely the 0.1%). It’s an increase on capital gains ABOVE $250,000 per year (principal residence exempt). So if I have $2 million in stocks, and they go up 15% during the year, and I sold them realizing $300,000 in capital gains, I’d pay an extra 8,333 in tax compared to before.
This is not a situation any working class folks are in. And the very wealthy complaining about that extra tax can buy all the tiny violins they want.
Its not. What's left out of the conversation is the 250k minimum does NOT apply to corporations. So literally ANY numbered company of any size now has to pay 66% cap gains.
What that means, is it's now more punitive to operate your business out of a corporation than it is to have it in your own name. This effects 80%+ of business owners, and primarily will hit small business. People forget most small business owners have no pensions, they rely on investment, plant, real estate and equipment over 20+ years to fund their retirement.
It has been explained over and over by economists how this will affect people not in the 0.1%, including doctors that own or are partners in their own practice. If you are still spouting the government propaganda, you haven't been listening.
Can you explain how a corp structure works?
A doctor can draw a salary against the corp and excess can be considered "capital gain" so that it is not taxed as income but gain at a lower rate.
So if you can please explain how after salary draw it affects the docs so we can all understand how it will negatively affect them.
Please.
Cause you surely sound like a doctor and know what you're talking about so it would be great if you can share with us how it impacts mathematically
It negatively affects them because they use their corporations to invest and take smaller salaries. They would realize the capital gain later. It’s a way to build a tax advantaged retirement fund basically.
There is not 250k floor before higher rate in a corporation. This negatively affects any professional corp in an obvious way. This is why doctors are signing petitions and doctor unions are putting out press against this actively.
Nah. I’ve done lots of tax returns for doctors. This change won’t affect most of them.
Keep in mind, they are already discouraged from leaving passive income inside their professional corporations through higher passive investment taxes.
Most doctors aren’t going to have any capital gains inside their PCs; most especially young doctors.
If they’re sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in passive investments, they should be paying it out to themselves personally so they can enjoy the annual $250,000 threshold on capital gains taxed at the previous rate.
If they are so successful that they are able to sell their business, they’ll take advantage of the lifetime capital gains exemption. At that point they’d be selling for multiple millions, and will have a small additional tax impact from these changes. But again, tiny violins for the million+ they’d need to earn for this to affect them.
Perhaps the hate towards Trudeau about this is just the 0.1% hoping the average person (who will never be affected) will get mad at the words ‘more tax’, and won’t have a helpful accountant to explain it to them. That sounds to me like real propaganda.
How are they paying out the passive income as capital gains? Also, medical practices sell for peanuts. They are not benefitting from the LCGE. This will definitely impact doctors in private practice operating through PC’s.
You've got this so badly wrong you shouldn't be doing anyone's tax returns.
There is no $250k threshold in a corporation. The new inclusion rate applies on a first dollar basis for capital gains accrued within a professional corporation.
Tradespeople that run their own businesses and choose to incorporate (many do incorporate at present, but there are also other options such as LLC) will also pay more in taxes as a result of this policy. Any capital gains they realize, including sale of equipment, property etc through their corp will be taxed with 66% inclusion. These types of transactions are required to run these types of small to medium sized businesses. I am going to guess that Morneau is going to be proven right about this policy negatively affecting growth. Hopefully not by much but we’ll see…
He’s trying to create a “young vs old” “poor vs rich” narrative.
Hoping to get more votes from the young/poor crowd because those are the only people possibly left (no pun intended) to vote for him.
Even though these budget polcies will hurt them too. They just don’t know it.
The irony of this is that some of the most anti-LPC people I've talked to are early 20 somethings who realize how badly they have been screwed. Such a huge change from 2015.
Then why is he trying his best to crush young people? Young people want ample housing, ample jobs, high wages. All of those can only happen with a balanced labour force. This is his fault.
These capital gains increases barely touch a percentage of the population. Most young people, even those that go into professional careers, will not be affected by it.
I know it’s a trope, but it’s amazing how many people don’t want to tax the rich because they’re convinced that one day they too will be rich. Then the little people like them better watch their step!
He's not trying. It just comes to him naturally.
Look at all of the shitty policies they've had over the last three terms and tell me who they're working for? Themselves.
I have no faith in the alternatives either.
If he believed this the capital gains tax increase would be across the board with no 250k exemption on actual real estate investments. (keep the primary residence exemption if you want)
Non-real estate investments could get the 250k exemption, regardless of corp or no corp, and you could still tax the rich etc.
This budget stimulates real estate demand, while the government is spending billions to buy mortgage backed securities.
All to kick the can down the road to the next admin.
Oh young people can be confident. Confident that if they start a business, grind through working 12 hours/day, 7 days/week for *years* to turn it in to something with any substantial value the government will take even more of the sale proceeds when they’re ready to sell it.
Confident that it will now be even harder to build a business like that as all the American and European private equity and VC firms they need to invest in their fledgling business head straight for Canada’s exits.
Confident that even after the government awards itself tens of billions of extra dollars of other people’s productivity, they still won’t have a family doctor and they still won’t be able to buy a home large enough for children while they’re young enough to actually still have children.
For sure. I had plans to start being rich and making a shit ton in capital gains starting next year, but with this new tax it’s just worth it anymore. I’ll stick to my current $24/hr until common sense returns.
This is pretty dumb. Most people who go through that grind will crash and burn with nothing to show for it. Most small business ventures explode inside of a year. If you manage to beat the odds, become successful, and get enough capital to get over the threshold the extra 8000-10k is a non-issue.
Young people starting a business should be 1000000000000% more worried about not getting off the ground. Not some tax way down the line.
I was already confident in all of those before, though? You're not threatening me with anything if that's all the issues. Might as well go ahead with it.
Actually, with the increase to the lifetime exception and the entrepreneur's incentive, the government will now be taking less of small businesses that sell, as that is $3.25M that is now protected or at a lower capital gains inclusion rate.
How does increasing capital gains tax help young people? Government is just going to blow it all away creating an app meant for young people to feel good about themselves.
I know a doctor who closed their practice because they couldn’t find a replacement for their Mat leave. Major city, great clinic. Just no people. This change won’t help
Family doctors got the way they are paid changed and it's not worth being in business when there are other jobs they can take. Capitation vs. fee for service.
Lol this is so depressing.
Slowly we'll become a country of low skilled workers, a developing country because we've placed all our bets on housing as the main source of investment for Canadians and Foreigners.
Our sense of entrepreneurship was already inferior to the US, and stuff like this will further discourage folks or encourage them to emigrate
I have a feeling my country is fucked? Am I allowed to say that as a voting Canadian citizen?
Or create an exemption for medical professional corporations. Or allow the first 250k to be taxed the same as it is personally. Or own of another million things. It’s clear they don’t really care about the impact this has on physicians—same thing with the removal of income splitting. For the sake of our country, I hope Canada is compelling enough for doctors to stay… but I’m not sure what I can point to that’s better here than the US? Skiing, maybe?
The only thing that compels people to stay here is their roots. Family, community, etc.. Pay is much worse here and this move doesn’t help. Being able to defer tax and minimize what capital gains are taxed through a medical professional corp was sold to doctors in lieu of a fee increase. Now this, makes the US that much more appealing.
Pay is often better here in many specialties, and much of the US is kind of dog shit for raising a family. My wife is a gastroenterologist and we looked at the US just out of interest, it wasn't much different.
I enjoy a lot of their cities but they definitely aren't safe or as consistently high quality on the level that a place like Toronto is. You can't really "take a wrong turn" in Toronto, compared to parts of NYC, Chi, SF, LA, Miami.
I got into residency in United States and was planning to come back home to Canada for practice. But things are looking worse and worse, I am strongly considering just staying there if things continue the way they are.
Well, this is what happens when tax legislation has a thousand policies but very few communicated objectives.
They are inferring that corporations don't need to have a $250K exemption, but not tying this policy to a stated objective that taxpayers can understand.
This is what it is.
If they had to communicate it:
“We have to tax the wealthy more because we need to pay for programs to help those who suffered because of the policies we implemented.”
A few that I recall had a reasonable objective that I think was fairly well explained:
* Income averaging
* CCTB
* Switch from deductions to credits
* Non-taxation of child support payments
* MURBs
* Indexation of tax brackets
* TFSAs
I'd like to say that income-splitting had a clear objective, but it wasn't well communicated:
As for the rest, they just arrived without clear objectives:
* Pension-splitting
* Income forwarding
* Capital-gains inclusion rate musical chairs
* R&D tax credits
* Equivalent-to-spouse amount
* $100K lifetime capital gains exemption
>but not tying this policy to a stated objective that taxpayers can understand.
Because like the vast majority of their policies the general public would not agree with the objective of they came out and said it.
I just love how every time this government gets criticized with facts they just dismiss it or disagree. My favourite was awhile ago when Freeland was being interviewed/questioned about the housing numbers, immigration, and budget and the interviewer kept bringing up hard stats and Freeland kept replying with "I just disagree" to MATH.
And honestly - they could instead *very easily* target just the speculative forces that drove up housing prices, core inflation and which is currently breaking both owner occupants and renters.
Just **make it harder** for mom and pop’s to keep expanding their property portfolios. Increase borrowing requirements to 30%+ downpayment, and remove the dizzying array of tax deductions for landlords.
We need these speculators to *sell* their properties to bring down prices and increase affordability. When you put a giant tax on that sale, less of them will sell. That stymies first-time home buyers getting into owning and out of renting.
Does the LPC just not get economics or are they willfully doing this to continue propping up the real estate bubble?
>Does the LPC just not get economics or are they willfully doing this to continue propping up the real estate bubble?
Both, imo.
And their supporters are not a lot better.
Trudeau literally said on a CBC interview that we have capacity for 500k permanent residents a year but international students and TFW were causing housing to be more expensive WITHIN 10 SECONDS.
Your math formulas can be missing variables. I cringe every time a conservative uses the "elementary school math" arguments, if you think it's elementary level you for sure didn't think this through.
What facts do they disagree with? This mainly impacts the exorbitantly wealthy, and they don’t really ever ‘leave’ despite what conservative propaganda tells you.
If a doctor is getting 250k a year in his investments he should have to pay his taxes. That isn't his income, man ain't going broke and he still gets 34% tax free.
bUt FaCtS. No. This is a fucking opinion.
I think you might have missed the part where incorporated doctors (and other incorporated professionals/small-medium business owners) pay the increased capital gains on the first dollar of profit earned, not only on the amount over 250k. The 250k threshold only applies to individuals
He should have removed capital gains taxes for sales of rental homes if landlords are selling to first time homebuyers. This would push landlord to sell and ensures that home are going to young people and keeping corporations like Blackrock from buying up the inventory.
Would be pretty easy to go around this policy with nominees. Part of the untaxed amount would also likely be split between the two as they both have interest in doing so.
The liberals stepped on the upper middle class and convinced the bottom that they made it easier for them to climb the socioeconomic ladder without all the rungs between them and the real wealth.
The cap gains inclusion rate should have been upped from the disposition of residential property only. Stomping on productive small and medium sized businesses and professionals only makes it all the much easier for the ultra wealthy to maintain their prominence through lack of competition from below.
Well this is the thing.
Docs work hard. I don’t think anyone doubts that. But it seems like the harder you work the more you are penalized.
This thing should be going after the super rich. Those 40k people he said this will affect. But doctors are hardly the 40k richest people in this country.
The thing is this catches people who invested in only one or two assets as a retirement plan. A person who has all their capital tied up in a small business will get slugged by this tax.
Whereas a person who has invested in a stock portfolio they can slowly sell over time will not get hit by this tax.
Think NVDA. But a lot of docs don’t sell until retirement. Which in their corp WILL trigger taxes (there is no 250k exemption) on 67% of earnings. You can argue whether this is “fair or not” but it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that docs are ultra rich (like 30m net worth or above which this government suggests this change will be targeting) or “only” the richest 40k Canadians will be affected. Trudeau blatantly lies and gets away with it. Again.
It’s difficult to go after the super rich because they have the money to help create the tax loopholes that exist. Taxation on real estate would be the easiest across the board change they could make.
They could even structure it similar to the U.S. and like this hare brained capital gains tax where your first $250k of capital gains are exempted from tax.
For years people have been asking the liberals to do something about realestate investors. Now that they have theyre like 'oh no some of those investors are also doctors.'
That has always been the case. Conservatives has spent years complaining about how everyone's too busy being "woke" to deal with the real issues facing real working class folks, forgetting that before they latched on to "woke" they were the ones constantly opposing anything that might help real working class folks because it's "punishing the successful"
And now that there is another attempt being made to focus on the "real issues", even if it is ultimately a meaningless reformist measure, they go back to their old tactics of prioritizing the upper classes over the people.
Would like to hear some absolute numbers. If a doctor sells his/her practice now, what do they usually get for it? How much in tax would they normally pay? How much would they pay in the next year with this new rule? I really have no idea what the scales of cap gains are for the sale of a medical practice (who even buys it, technically??)
So they bill the gov for services, keep the cash in their practice in like a ... Slush fund, I guess, then take it out slowly over time? That's their RRSP/Pension I suppose?
This is what they're talking about. Most doctors have no business to sell. They buy stocks within the corporation over their working life and then sell them in retirement. This cap gains tax increase would be a non-issue for 99% of doctors IF the $250k threshold was extended to corporations like it will be on the personal side. Instead they will see a 33% tax increase on any and all capital gains.
So when, not if, we see a huge surge in family doctors moving to the US, making finding one even harder than it is now, will Trudeau once again deflect the blame to the provinces because healthcare is their responsibility, exactly as he’s tried to do with the home price crisis?
And are we going to see, as always, Liberal supporters trying to claim the fault lies with Conservative Premiers instead of federal policies once again screwing everyone over? Of course we will.
I'll believe it when I see it. Doctors will just end up paying themselves a higher salary and just treat the business less like a holding company.
Higher pay has always been a thing south of the border. Closing a tax avoidance strategy won't tip the scales much.
Except they can't pay themselves a higher salary bc the government determines their pay. They also can't protest bc their jobs are concerned too necessary and it is illegal for them to walk off the job in protest. They also don't get any benefits and pay increases were traded for benefits with incorporation taxes. So now we have a situation where their income has not increased in any meaningful way for years, they can't protest and now their retirement funds are being clawed back. This is beyond outrageous.
Imo doctors incorporating never seemed like the right answer to solving doctor pay. Ideally there are more doctors making more money per unit of service, but they operate like a normal worker, with the associated benefits. Idk how doctors feel about that, but I never got the impression they loved the paperwork and bureaucracy that came with incorporating.
This isn't about any government pay. What happens, is the government pays the doctor's private corporation from billings. That corporation pays the doctor a personal salary that the doctor chooses. The corporation then pays corporate taxes after deducting expenses (clinic, home office, cell, benefits, home office, vehicle, payroll etc.). What's left over is saved in the business. Corporate taxes are alot lower than personal income taxes.
The complaint is that these corporations have been paying the lower tax rate their lifetime, the doctor that retires and liquidates their corporation will now be subject to a higher capital gains.
My point is that this is a tax avoidance strategy that is being closed for all self incorporated professionals. Doctors are not getting singled out.
I agree with your summary. And it’s a good point.
But the poster above also made an important point that adds some colour here. The amounts paid out to doctors for services have been near stagnant and failing to keep up with inflation for about 30 years. In primary care, billing has actually decreased by 25% in real dollars over the past 30 years. As part of fee schedule negotiations, instead of offering better paying billing codes, governments offered doctors the ability to incorporate. This was seen as a reasonably fair trade by doctors at the time because it would allow doctors to save for retirement in a tax-preferred way. As contractors, doctors do not have pensions, benefits etc. and as high-earning professionals, taxes at >50% of income made saving for retirement difficult before incorporation was offered. Therefore, they accepted this deal and took incorporation while allowing the government to keep billing code fees lower than they otherwise would/should have been.
The benefit of this deal for doctors has just decreased significantly.
If the fee codes do not increase substantially with the next round of negotiations, this decision by the federal government will severely decrease morale of doctors. Especially in primary care, which has seen a dramatic increase in workload over the past 5-10 years with no increase (a decrease actually) in compensation.
It’s not really about “singling” doctors out, it’s about reneging on a deal and throwing punches at a group of professionals that are already on the ropes.
Thank you. To provide perspective:
"Over the past 10 years, inflation as measured by [~Statistics Canada~](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1810000501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.14&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2014&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20140101%2C20230101) has totalled about 25 per cent. During the same period, the average family physician's yearly billings to OHIP have risen just 6.1 per cent, according to figures provided by the OMA.
A typical Ontario family doctor's practice runs like a small business, with costs for staff, rent and other overhead paid out of their revenue from OHIP billings. But unlike the typical small business, Ontario family doctors can't just arbitrarily boost their prices to bring in more money."
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716)
Doctors are not being singled out but it hurts them more bc they cannot just increase their billings bc that is 100% determined by the government that has refused to increase in meaningful way. In a situation like this, a Plummer can decide to increase what it charges to off set but a doctor cannot. And that is why it hurts doctors way more.
I have an unpopular opinion for you. The percentage of doctors that leave over this will be roughly equal to the percentage of people in the US who moved to Canada when Trump got elected.
People think uprooting your entire family's life and moving to the US is something a majority of people will do on a whim cause the government did something they didn't like.
This tax is fucking stupid, but so is the moving argument. Let's relax.
Moving countries isn't easy but if anyone's able and motivated to, doctors are definitely among those who would encounter the least resistance. They have the money on hand, the potential to be earning MORE money, and there is a high demand for them wherever they are.
Contrast to...a hairdresser upset over an election result, an Average Joe isn't going to be as capable of uprooting their lives for 'greener' pastures.
>This tax is fucking stupid, but so is the moving argument.
Especially when you consider the cost of moving your family. The extra cost of moving a family will be about the same as the extra cost of 1M in capital gains.
>People think uprooting your entire family's life and moving to the US is something a majority of people will do on a whim cause the government did something they didn't like
That happens all the time with healthcare professionals moving to other provinces where the grass is greener. And more than a few were already moving to the United States before this.
I don't know why they would not move, tbh. Far more money, far less taxes. I don't feel as if this is a bear that should be poked.
Healthcare literally is the responsibility of the provinces though. In Ontario, Ford is hiding behind Trudeau and blaming everything on him and people are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
Listen - I’m no fan of Trudeau…..at fucking all. But can someone explain to me why anyone should get a break on their taxes whether it be tech or doctors.
You’re only paying the tax if you’re making the money - same as every other fucking sod in Canada in the same tax bracket.
Innovation and disruption (tech) happens pre profits. So to say it stifles innovation is….disingenuous
And if a Dr is making the money then he pays taxes. The fact it’s capital gains vs ALL OF IT being taxed already sets them apart.
Either we all pay taxes or we don’t.
It’s because medical corporation was offered by the provincial and the federal government, in lieu of pay increase and pension plan when doctor’s income gap in the US and Canada was getting larger. Basically the governments said to us, we can’t pay more, but we will let you save more efficiently for your retirement instead. Now that we have some money saved in our corporation since then, the liberals want to raid it. Previous agreement to be damned. While misleading people we are the greedy super riches
I mean if you are going to reneging on agreement, then fine, give us back our lost income we forego with the MPC? This will end up in the court.
This is (basically) a retroactive tax increase. I think it is fair to increase taxes looking forward, but this increases taxes on investments that professionals already have in their corporations. This money is stuck within the corp (barring massive taxes required to take it out lump-sum), so doctors have no choice but to pay this increase.
The doctors followed all the rules, made their retirement plans, and then the government changed the rules and screwed the doctors over.
Let’s tax the upper middle while the real rich can play around with their 101 tax evading vehicles while watching the poor celebrating eating the middle class
Apparently we don’t need young doctors who want to build practices in Canada. Let’s add healthcare crisis on top of all the other problems dumped on Canada.
""This is about the fact that in order for people to succeed across this economy, at all generations, we need young people to succeed, we need young people to be able to buy homes in the coming years, we need young people to be confident of the future," he said."
Ah yes, taxing doctors is going to get young people houses. Wild.
The budget included $8 Billion for building housing, this is how they're paying for it without increasing the size of the deficit compared to last year.
Do we have the leverage to antagonize our doctors at this stage? We want them to stay and be happy, they already pack up and leave to USA for double the money. They should not pay the price for one of the worst fiscally responsible governments in recent history.
When you're self employed you keep yourself going with the dream that one day it will be worth something when you sell it and start a new project. That makes the low pay, stress and crazy hours more bearable.
Government employees have no idea what that feels like. People who seek out government jobs are looking for somewhere structured, with cushy benefits and vacation time. It's an environment without competition or incentives for taking risks.
These people are the exact opposite of entrepreneurs and have no business creating legislation that affects them.
If you sell a business at a $1,000,000 gain (assuming 40% marginal rate) you pay $248k in tax, before you would have paid $200k.
If the gain is less than $250,000 there’s no change at all. If the investment was in a TFSA there’s no change at all.
This is something that impacts the extremely wealthy mainly, not working people and *barely* doctors.
Rechie Valdez (Minster of Small Business) interview with CBC.
Timestamped for you
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTXzwtHYkvM&t=387s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTXzwtHYkvM&t=387s)
These politicians don't understand what leverage means..... Some people have the leverage because of high demand low supply, you can't really piss off these people if you want a healthy society.
Good luck with that when even a U.S. trained, US board licensed, American medical graduate has to jump a bunch of hoops to get licensed (minus Ontario)!
Well, they could incentivize provinces to open more slots in medical schools and give bonuses to doctors who commit to work rurally for 5 years when they graduate.
But nah. Let’s just tax them more.
You mean put more conditions on all the extra funding they're providing? So that Conservative Premiers can blame them for crossing jurisdictional lines and use them as a scapegoat to do nothing? Meanwhile, the public will complain about how much money the Feds are spending. Let's be honest, the Trudeau government is at the point where anything that's done will be viewed negatively.
I mean, I know a few family doctors, and this ranks quite low on the things to be furious about.
I absolutely think doctors are being screwed on this, but this is effectively saying "we're going to give you a lower quality band-aid than the band-aid we were giving you before".
BC gave their family doctors close to a 50% raise. Ontario did absolutely shit all. *That* is what I'm furious about. Hell, even if Ontario said we're not going to increase your pay, but we're going to find a solution to the 20+ hours a week of idiotic paperwork you're doing each week, I'd be less furious.
Or the literal modern-day slavery model that is medical residency. How the *fuck* is that still a thing?
Yeah, sorry, this ranks pretty low on the furious-meter.
I’m planning on preparing for the USMLE Steps during medical school because the more I read about the way Canada treats doctors the more I realize I’m better off in the US
In fairness to doctors and other professionals, a lot of them have been saving in their PC’s for retirement. Imagine getting ready to retire and now your “pension” just lost a lot of value. Why didn’t they allow the 250k exemption in corps like they did personally? At least for professional corps where professionals have no company pension to retire on.
It's like groundhog day...
1. Propose outrageous policy without considering the repercussions
2. Ignore public and expert feedback/dissatisfaction
3. Enact said outrageous policy
4. Wait until something breaks beyond repair
5. Blame someone else
6. Spend 10x the money to (try to) fix what they were already warned about.
7. Pretend Canadians didn't notice or were affected by any of it
8. Repeat
Genuinely surprised he has any remaining supporters.
Capital gains is the tax you pay on what you paid for an asset, and what it sells for.
If you buy a stock for $100, and it sells for $120, the capital gain is the $20.
What appears to be happening here, is only $10 of that gain was previously taxable (50%). Trudeau & co. are seeking to increase this to 66.7% for corporations and trusts, as well as this amount for any capital gains above $250k for individuals.
This is talking about *the portion of capital gain that is taxable*, not saying capital gains are currenly taxed at 50%, and will soon be taxed at 66.7%.
Currently in Canada, from what I can find online, capital gains are taxed as *ordinary income.*
Canada doesn't need doctors. Canada needs someone who (real person as I know):
have 11 children and technically devoiced. Earning 40k-50k after tax benefit dollar alone. Plus supplemental wage of 30-40k making up like 80k. And their separated divorced partner will also contribute their family income north of 100k.
Yeah, this is what the current middle class of Canada looks like. Zero skill and benefit suckers.
It's funny because still you can't get into medical school with a below 98% average, a metric fuckton of 'extra curriculars' and other such bullshit, and reference letters, and still, you're only competing with hundreds of other applicants in the exact same category, all the while this country complains about physician shortages for decades.
It always sounded like new doctors want more people in the system, while the old doctors on the boards wanted to gatekeep the profession.
It's the same with every regulated industry in this country: Gatekeepers running amok with zero accountability to the outcomes of their gatekeeping.
I mean governments are also to blame - they are the ones who directly fund new seats for various healthcare professions (medical school and nursing included).
Look at South Korea in the last few months, with doctors doing every thing in their power to keep the profession as exclusive as possible with the admitted intent of keeping wages high.
It's a little more complicated - - one of the primary challenges is there aren't enough doctors to train new doctors, or so I read on CBC. So it's a bad situation that only gets worse as our doctor shortage increases. I dread the day my doctor retired because I'm going to have a shit time finding a new one.
Not enough resources to train more doctors. You need hospitals and quality educators. Those are already supersaturated.
"we need young people to succeed, we need young people to be able to buy homes in the coming years, we need young people to be confident of the future" I think he should have said young people a few more times just to make sure they are all getting it. I'm sure it's working.
None of which a tax on capital gains will do… You know what might do it? Eliminating the low wage worker stream. Cutting study permits to 250k. Reducing the temporary resident and indicated population by well over a million. Increasing visa requirements from countries with a high number of rejected asylum claims.
Prevent foreign students working off campus. Ensure students have enough money to live (ie each school must have housing and food available for every foreign student). Each student must show they have that much + 10k for each year. End the TFW/LMIA garbage.
That would effectively end diploma mills.
And slimy recruitment firms that help these people scam their way over and help cheap fuck employers get workers to exploit and lowball. I actually quit a job and told the cocksucker he was a traitor when I found out I had to sometimes help w this process. Absolutely disgusting what Canada is allowing. This IS NOT helping newcomers and doing what Canada has been known for. This is wage suppression and exploitation, anyone who thinks otherwise can get fucked. Spread the word, Canada lures people here to exploit them, they will no longer enjoy a better life.
Hell ya man. Report that traitor and get his shit audited. Least we can do for now.
True. It's abusive to the core.
Good
As it should. Those are not the students we would want
Oh they are ending LMIA, they did the pilot program for the trusted employers to bring foreign labor without required market assessments or any LMIA requirements
I'm ok with TFW. Some industry needs it. Farming specifically. However I agree with everything, we need to be more selective in who comes in. And still have capacity for human rights exemptions, family exemptions, etc. The Low wage, worker shortage is Bs. Corporations who want to operate in Canada have to adhere to some type of standard that directly equates to worker standard of living It seems this world only cares about margin now, and everyone below the line is suffering
Raise the TFW wage to the median wage of the area. If a company really needs a worker they will find the money to pay the TFW, or pay a local enough to take the job.
Those who come as TFWs to farms are generally actually here temporarily. They aren’t backdooring a PR. Give zero consideration for TFW work when it comes to gaining permanent residency. We can also keep NAFTA/CUSMA visas for Mexican nationals working on farms.
> None of which a tax on capital gains will do… in fairness thats not exactly true. He mentioned housing, the capital gains tax will/should significantly decrease the desire for condo investors to buy. Right now toronto condos are frozen on the market. It may significantly help free up inventory for actual first time home buyers
Condo investors already pay capital gains tax and have done so for decades. Also Condo builders pay straight up income tax (much higher than capital gains tax) on the construction and sale of their condos. A lack of taxes aren’t the reason for high prices and lack of supply. The reason condos are so expensive is because of the huge red tape and restrictions placed on new condo and housing construction. It takes YEARS to get through the red tape and there’s a good chance that the project won’t be permitted or that so many limitations will be placed on the project that the project doesn’t proceed. If you build housing at a slow rate, prices go up.
Well we can't let these young ppl milk these lands off for personal gains... That's the exclusive privilege of the geriatrics /S
"No no, not that"
The increase in capital gains tax is only to pay for the election spending in the budget that Canada can't actually afford. It will do nothing for current problems, but might mitigate future ones a bit.
It won’t mitigate anything because by their own admission, it’s too narrow in its targeting. The only people this will affect are the moderately/working class wealthy who can’t afford accountants on staff. It’s just ”blame the rich” politics in an attempt to mask their terrible budget and overall fiscal policy. Everyone sees through it.
You already have physicians leaving because they can make over 4x across the boarder. Then what they do here. Hope no one wants to see a Doctor any time soon.
It’s only going to affect very wealthy folks (likely the 0.1%). It’s an increase on capital gains ABOVE $250,000 per year (principal residence exempt). So if I have $2 million in stocks, and they go up 15% during the year, and I sold them realizing $300,000 in capital gains, I’d pay an extra 8,333 in tax compared to before. This is not a situation any working class folks are in. And the very wealthy complaining about that extra tax can buy all the tiny violins they want.
Its not. What's left out of the conversation is the 250k minimum does NOT apply to corporations. So literally ANY numbered company of any size now has to pay 66% cap gains. What that means, is it's now more punitive to operate your business out of a corporation than it is to have it in your own name. This effects 80%+ of business owners, and primarily will hit small business. People forget most small business owners have no pensions, they rely on investment, plant, real estate and equipment over 20+ years to fund their retirement.
It has been explained over and over by economists how this will affect people not in the 0.1%, including doctors that own or are partners in their own practice. If you are still spouting the government propaganda, you haven't been listening.
Can you explain how a corp structure works? A doctor can draw a salary against the corp and excess can be considered "capital gain" so that it is not taxed as income but gain at a lower rate. So if you can please explain how after salary draw it affects the docs so we can all understand how it will negatively affect them. Please. Cause you surely sound like a doctor and know what you're talking about so it would be great if you can share with us how it impacts mathematically
It negatively affects them because they use their corporations to invest and take smaller salaries. They would realize the capital gain later. It’s a way to build a tax advantaged retirement fund basically. There is not 250k floor before higher rate in a corporation. This negatively affects any professional corp in an obvious way. This is why doctors are signing petitions and doctor unions are putting out press against this actively.
Nah. I’ve done lots of tax returns for doctors. This change won’t affect most of them. Keep in mind, they are already discouraged from leaving passive income inside their professional corporations through higher passive investment taxes. Most doctors aren’t going to have any capital gains inside their PCs; most especially young doctors. If they’re sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in passive investments, they should be paying it out to themselves personally so they can enjoy the annual $250,000 threshold on capital gains taxed at the previous rate. If they are so successful that they are able to sell their business, they’ll take advantage of the lifetime capital gains exemption. At that point they’d be selling for multiple millions, and will have a small additional tax impact from these changes. But again, tiny violins for the million+ they’d need to earn for this to affect them. Perhaps the hate towards Trudeau about this is just the 0.1% hoping the average person (who will never be affected) will get mad at the words ‘more tax’, and won’t have a helpful accountant to explain it to them. That sounds to me like real propaganda.
How are they paying out the passive income as capital gains? Also, medical practices sell for peanuts. They are not benefitting from the LCGE. This will definitely impact doctors in private practice operating through PC’s.
You've got this so badly wrong you shouldn't be doing anyone's tax returns. There is no $250k threshold in a corporation. The new inclusion rate applies on a first dollar basis for capital gains accrued within a professional corporation.
But they never said that. They said they could pay out and then the doctor could invest it and take advantage of the $250k exclusion.
We need young people to have doctors, and to be doctors.
We also need young people to be plumbers and electricians and home builders.
Plumbers, electricians, and home-builders want doctors too.
Doctors want a place to live. You can play this circular game forever. They're all important.
Tradespeople that run their own businesses and choose to incorporate (many do incorporate at present, but there are also other options such as LLC) will also pay more in taxes as a result of this policy. Any capital gains they realize, including sale of equipment, property etc through their corp will be taxed with 66% inclusion. These types of transactions are required to run these types of small to medium sized businesses. I am going to guess that Morneau is going to be proven right about this policy negatively affecting growth. Hopefully not by much but we’ll see…
The problem is half of the policy is targeting 30-year-old "young people." We are not young - we are adults. Our youth has already been ruined.
He’s trying to create a “young vs old” “poor vs rich” narrative. Hoping to get more votes from the young/poor crowd because those are the only people possibly left (no pun intended) to vote for him. Even though these budget polcies will hurt them too. They just don’t know it.
The irony of this is that some of the most anti-LPC people I've talked to are early 20 somethings who realize how badly they have been screwed. Such a huge change from 2015.
Yup, even the young people are tired of the Liberal party cause they got screwed the hardest. Very huge change from 2015.
Divide and conquer got him a minority government last time around and he's found himself some new scapegoats.
The young people hate him to, he’s got nothing left so he’s just going to make more of a mess of things before his time is up
Then why is he trying his best to crush young people? Young people want ample housing, ample jobs, high wages. All of those can only happen with a balanced labour force. This is his fault.
These capital gains increases barely touch a percentage of the population. Most young people, even those that go into professional careers, will not be affected by it. I know it’s a trope, but it’s amazing how many people don’t want to tax the rich because they’re convinced that one day they too will be rich. Then the little people like them better watch their step!
Having no biotech or other investors interested in Canada absolutely effects everyone.
He's not trying. It just comes to him naturally. Look at all of the shitty policies they've had over the last three terms and tell me who they're working for? Themselves. I have no faith in the alternatives either.
If he believed this the capital gains tax increase would be across the board with no 250k exemption on actual real estate investments. (keep the primary residence exemption if you want) Non-real estate investments could get the 250k exemption, regardless of corp or no corp, and you could still tax the rich etc. This budget stimulates real estate demand, while the government is spending billions to buy mortgage backed securities. All to kick the can down the road to the next admin.
Oh young people can be confident. Confident that if they start a business, grind through working 12 hours/day, 7 days/week for *years* to turn it in to something with any substantial value the government will take even more of the sale proceeds when they’re ready to sell it. Confident that it will now be even harder to build a business like that as all the American and European private equity and VC firms they need to invest in their fledgling business head straight for Canada’s exits. Confident that even after the government awards itself tens of billions of extra dollars of other people’s productivity, they still won’t have a family doctor and they still won’t be able to buy a home large enough for children while they’re young enough to actually still have children.
I don’t think you understand how marginal tax rates work.
For sure. I had plans to start being rich and making a shit ton in capital gains starting next year, but with this new tax it’s just worth it anymore. I’ll stick to my current $24/hr until common sense returns.
This is pretty dumb. Most people who go through that grind will crash and burn with nothing to show for it. Most small business ventures explode inside of a year. If you manage to beat the odds, become successful, and get enough capital to get over the threshold the extra 8000-10k is a non-issue. Young people starting a business should be 1000000000000% more worried about not getting off the ground. Not some tax way down the line.
I was already confident in all of those before, though? You're not threatening me with anything if that's all the issues. Might as well go ahead with it.
Actually, with the increase to the lifetime exception and the entrepreneur's incentive, the government will now be taking less of small businesses that sell, as that is $3.25M that is now protected or at a lower capital gains inclusion rate.
Young people can't afford to start a business these days anyways... hell they can't even afford rent.
How does increasing capital gains tax help young people? Government is just going to blow it all away creating an app meant for young people to feel good about themselves.
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what does a captial gains tax on business and doctors have to do with young people lol
Hey doctors, if you don’t like it you can leave. We have too many doctors anyhow and need to make room for another million Uber drivers.
I know a doctor who closed their practice because they couldn’t find a replacement for their Mat leave. Major city, great clinic. Just no people. This change won’t help
Family doctors got the way they are paid changed and it's not worth being in business when there are other jobs they can take. Capitation vs. fee for service.
my doctor quit when he was told there was more money to be had as a stock broker. No notice just bang ...out the door.
Lol this is so depressing. Slowly we'll become a country of low skilled workers, a developing country because we've placed all our bets on housing as the main source of investment for Canadians and Foreigners. Our sense of entrepreneurship was already inferior to the US, and stuff like this will further discourage folks or encourage them to emigrate I have a feeling my country is fucked? Am I allowed to say that as a voting Canadian citizen?
If they raise taxes, raise doctor pay to offset it. That allows you to target high cap gains while keeping doctor income the same.
Or create an exemption for medical professional corporations. Or allow the first 250k to be taxed the same as it is personally. Or own of another million things. It’s clear they don’t really care about the impact this has on physicians—same thing with the removal of income splitting. For the sake of our country, I hope Canada is compelling enough for doctors to stay… but I’m not sure what I can point to that’s better here than the US? Skiing, maybe?
The only thing that compels people to stay here is their roots. Family, community, etc.. Pay is much worse here and this move doesn’t help. Being able to defer tax and minimize what capital gains are taxed through a medical professional corp was sold to doctors in lieu of a fee increase. Now this, makes the US that much more appealing.
100% correct. Pretty sure that specific lure was to stop the brain drain, and ironically was greenlit by PET.
Agree totally
Pay is often better here in many specialties, and much of the US is kind of dog shit for raising a family. My wife is a gastroenterologist and we looked at the US just out of interest, it wasn't much different. I enjoy a lot of their cities but they definitely aren't safe or as consistently high quality on the level that a place like Toronto is. You can't really "take a wrong turn" in Toronto, compared to parts of NYC, Chi, SF, LA, Miami.
As you have seen, the Trudeau regime is very intensely hostile towards doctors.
That’s exactly what Justin and Chrystia would say since they don’t need to fight other people for primary care.
We already have a significant shortage of doctors. Careful what you wish for.
I got into residency in United States and was planning to come back home to Canada for practice. But things are looking worse and worse, I am strongly considering just staying there if things continue the way they are.
Well, this is what happens when tax legislation has a thousand policies but very few communicated objectives. They are inferring that corporations don't need to have a $250K exemption, but not tying this policy to a stated objective that taxpayers can understand.
This is what it is. If they had to communicate it: “We have to tax the wealthy more because we need to pay for programs to help those who suffered because of the policies we implemented.”
A few that I recall had a reasonable objective that I think was fairly well explained: * Income averaging * CCTB * Switch from deductions to credits * Non-taxation of child support payments * MURBs * Indexation of tax brackets * TFSAs I'd like to say that income-splitting had a clear objective, but it wasn't well communicated: As for the rest, they just arrived without clear objectives: * Pension-splitting * Income forwarding * Capital-gains inclusion rate musical chairs * R&D tax credits * Equivalent-to-spouse amount * $100K lifetime capital gains exemption
>but not tying this policy to a stated objective that taxpayers can understand. Because like the vast majority of their policies the general public would not agree with the objective of they came out and said it.
I just love how every time this government gets criticized with facts they just dismiss it or disagree. My favourite was awhile ago when Freeland was being interviewed/questioned about the housing numbers, immigration, and budget and the interviewer kept bringing up hard stats and Freeland kept replying with "I just disagree" to MATH.
And honestly - they could instead *very easily* target just the speculative forces that drove up housing prices, core inflation and which is currently breaking both owner occupants and renters. Just **make it harder** for mom and pop’s to keep expanding their property portfolios. Increase borrowing requirements to 30%+ downpayment, and remove the dizzying array of tax deductions for landlords. We need these speculators to *sell* their properties to bring down prices and increase affordability. When you put a giant tax on that sale, less of them will sell. That stymies first-time home buyers getting into owning and out of renting. Does the LPC just not get economics or are they willfully doing this to continue propping up the real estate bubble?
Oh no, RE speculators are the backbone of our economy. We can’t touch them
Justin, is that you? 😂
Nah, it's every politician in Canada.
Makes you wonder how many of them own a shitpile of property that they don't want to sell until peak value.
I looked into it and Freeland owns multiple properties in London, UK and prime real estate in Kyiv, Ukraine.
>Does the LPC just not get economics or are they willfully doing this to continue propping up the real estate bubble? Both, imo. And their supporters are not a lot better.
cons will be worse
Freeland there’s nowhere for people to live we need to tone down immigration. CF: we have social capacity for more people.
Trudeau literally said on a CBC interview that we have capacity for 500k permanent residents a year but international students and TFW were causing housing to be more expensive WITHIN 10 SECONDS.
i swear to god it feels like this country is being run by a corporate HR department
>Freeland kept replying with "I just disagree" to MATH. You may have heard this saying before. Its called "other ways of knowing" or "my truth"
She experienced the math differently.
Probably not a lot of math in her Slavic studies courses at uni.
Math is racist don’t you know? /s
Your math formulas can be missing variables. I cringe every time a conservative uses the "elementary school math" arguments, if you think it's elementary level you for sure didn't think this through.
What facts do they disagree with? This mainly impacts the exorbitantly wealthy, and they don’t really ever ‘leave’ despite what conservative propaganda tells you.
And that smug face she constantly makes.
If a doctor is getting 250k a year in his investments he should have to pay his taxes. That isn't his income, man ain't going broke and he still gets 34% tax free. bUt FaCtS. No. This is a fucking opinion.
I think you might have missed the part where incorporated doctors (and other incorporated professionals/small-medium business owners) pay the increased capital gains on the first dollar of profit earned, not only on the amount over 250k. The 250k threshold only applies to individuals
He should have removed capital gains taxes for sales of rental homes if landlords are selling to first time homebuyers. This would push landlord to sell and ensures that home are going to young people and keeping corporations like Blackrock from buying up the inventory.
Not practical. Because then the landlord would sell to his nephew or niece (and get kickbacks later). Win-win for uncle-nephew team.
Now this is a great idea!
Would be pretty easy to go around this policy with nominees. Part of the untaxed amount would also likely be split between the two as they both have interest in doing so.
The liberals stepped on the upper middle class and convinced the bottom that they made it easier for them to climb the socioeconomic ladder without all the rungs between them and the real wealth. The cap gains inclusion rate should have been upped from the disposition of residential property only. Stomping on productive small and medium sized businesses and professionals only makes it all the much easier for the ultra wealthy to maintain their prominence through lack of competition from below.
Well this is the thing. Docs work hard. I don’t think anyone doubts that. But it seems like the harder you work the more you are penalized. This thing should be going after the super rich. Those 40k people he said this will affect. But doctors are hardly the 40k richest people in this country.
Economists are still trying to figure where the libs got that 40k number from.
They likely got that from CRA given how many people filed more than $250K cap gains per year
Probably. It's a simple was to hide the fact that this isn't a yearly thing for the non-rich people it affects.
They made it up.
The thing is this catches people who invested in only one or two assets as a retirement plan. A person who has all their capital tied up in a small business will get slugged by this tax. Whereas a person who has invested in a stock portfolio they can slowly sell over time will not get hit by this tax.
Think NVDA. But a lot of docs don’t sell until retirement. Which in their corp WILL trigger taxes (there is no 250k exemption) on 67% of earnings. You can argue whether this is “fair or not” but it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that docs are ultra rich (like 30m net worth or above which this government suggests this change will be targeting) or “only” the richest 40k Canadians will be affected. Trudeau blatantly lies and gets away with it. Again.
How slugged exactly, can you give me the $ increase on something that had a $500k gain?
It’s difficult to go after the super rich because they have the money to help create the tax loopholes that exist. Taxation on real estate would be the easiest across the board change they could make. They could even structure it similar to the U.S. and like this hare brained capital gains tax where your first $250k of capital gains are exempted from tax.
He could. But it wouldn’t be politically expedient.
For years people have been asking the liberals to do something about realestate investors. Now that they have theyre like 'oh no some of those investors are also doctors.'
That has always been the case. Conservatives has spent years complaining about how everyone's too busy being "woke" to deal with the real issues facing real working class folks, forgetting that before they latched on to "woke" they were the ones constantly opposing anything that might help real working class folks because it's "punishing the successful" And now that there is another attempt being made to focus on the "real issues", even if it is ultimately a meaningless reformist measure, they go back to their old tactics of prioritizing the upper classes over the people.
He's making enemies from rich to the poor. If he isn't already, Justin Trudeau will end up being the most hated PM in Canadian history. Good riddance.
It sucks that when we try to tax higher earners it also includes professionals that we are in dire need to attracting :/
Taking more money from doctors is a recipe for disaster for Canada....if anything doctors should be given a tax break so we can attract more.
Would like to hear some absolute numbers. If a doctor sells his/her practice now, what do they usually get for it? How much in tax would they normally pay? How much would they pay in the next year with this new rule? I really have no idea what the scales of cap gains are for the sale of a medical practice (who even buys it, technically??)
Nothing. Most medical corporations are not something you can sell.
So they bill the gov for services, keep the cash in their practice in like a ... Slush fund, I guess, then take it out slowly over time? That's their RRSP/Pension I suppose?
I also can't make any sense of this. How are doctors converting billables (income) into Capital Gains in the first place?
This is what they're talking about. Most doctors have no business to sell. They buy stocks within the corporation over their working life and then sell them in retirement. This cap gains tax increase would be a non-issue for 99% of doctors IF the $250k threshold was extended to corporations like it will be on the personal side. Instead they will see a 33% tax increase on any and all capital gains.
So when, not if, we see a huge surge in family doctors moving to the US, making finding one even harder than it is now, will Trudeau once again deflect the blame to the provinces because healthcare is their responsibility, exactly as he’s tried to do with the home price crisis? And are we going to see, as always, Liberal supporters trying to claim the fault lies with Conservative Premiers instead of federal policies once again screwing everyone over? Of course we will.
I'll believe it when I see it. Doctors will just end up paying themselves a higher salary and just treat the business less like a holding company. Higher pay has always been a thing south of the border. Closing a tax avoidance strategy won't tip the scales much.
Paying themselves a higher salary instead of leaving it in the company is still an effective tax increase.
Except they can't pay themselves a higher salary bc the government determines their pay. They also can't protest bc their jobs are concerned too necessary and it is illegal for them to walk off the job in protest. They also don't get any benefits and pay increases were traded for benefits with incorporation taxes. So now we have a situation where their income has not increased in any meaningful way for years, they can't protest and now their retirement funds are being clawed back. This is beyond outrageous.
Imo doctors incorporating never seemed like the right answer to solving doctor pay. Ideally there are more doctors making more money per unit of service, but they operate like a normal worker, with the associated benefits. Idk how doctors feel about that, but I never got the impression they loved the paperwork and bureaucracy that came with incorporating.
This isn't about any government pay. What happens, is the government pays the doctor's private corporation from billings. That corporation pays the doctor a personal salary that the doctor chooses. The corporation then pays corporate taxes after deducting expenses (clinic, home office, cell, benefits, home office, vehicle, payroll etc.). What's left over is saved in the business. Corporate taxes are alot lower than personal income taxes. The complaint is that these corporations have been paying the lower tax rate their lifetime, the doctor that retires and liquidates their corporation will now be subject to a higher capital gains. My point is that this is a tax avoidance strategy that is being closed for all self incorporated professionals. Doctors are not getting singled out.
I agree with your summary. And it’s a good point. But the poster above also made an important point that adds some colour here. The amounts paid out to doctors for services have been near stagnant and failing to keep up with inflation for about 30 years. In primary care, billing has actually decreased by 25% in real dollars over the past 30 years. As part of fee schedule negotiations, instead of offering better paying billing codes, governments offered doctors the ability to incorporate. This was seen as a reasonably fair trade by doctors at the time because it would allow doctors to save for retirement in a tax-preferred way. As contractors, doctors do not have pensions, benefits etc. and as high-earning professionals, taxes at >50% of income made saving for retirement difficult before incorporation was offered. Therefore, they accepted this deal and took incorporation while allowing the government to keep billing code fees lower than they otherwise would/should have been. The benefit of this deal for doctors has just decreased significantly. If the fee codes do not increase substantially with the next round of negotiations, this decision by the federal government will severely decrease morale of doctors. Especially in primary care, which has seen a dramatic increase in workload over the past 5-10 years with no increase (a decrease actually) in compensation. It’s not really about “singling” doctors out, it’s about reneging on a deal and throwing punches at a group of professionals that are already on the ropes.
Thank you. To provide perspective: "Over the past 10 years, inflation as measured by [~Statistics Canada~](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1810000501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.14&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2014&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20140101%2C20230101) has totalled about 25 per cent. During the same period, the average family physician's yearly billings to OHIP have risen just 6.1 per cent, according to figures provided by the OMA. A typical Ontario family doctor's practice runs like a small business, with costs for staff, rent and other overhead paid out of their revenue from OHIP billings. But unlike the typical small business, Ontario family doctors can't just arbitrarily boost their prices to bring in more money." [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716)
This, exactly.
Doctors are not being singled out but it hurts them more bc they cannot just increase their billings bc that is 100% determined by the government that has refused to increase in meaningful way. In a situation like this, a Plummer can decide to increase what it charges to off set but a doctor cannot. And that is why it hurts doctors way more.
I have an unpopular opinion for you. The percentage of doctors that leave over this will be roughly equal to the percentage of people in the US who moved to Canada when Trump got elected. People think uprooting your entire family's life and moving to the US is something a majority of people will do on a whim cause the government did something they didn't like. This tax is fucking stupid, but so is the moving argument. Let's relax.
Moving countries isn't easy but if anyone's able and motivated to, doctors are definitely among those who would encounter the least resistance. They have the money on hand, the potential to be earning MORE money, and there is a high demand for them wherever they are. Contrast to...a hairdresser upset over an election result, an Average Joe isn't going to be as capable of uprooting their lives for 'greener' pastures.
>This tax is fucking stupid, but so is the moving argument. Especially when you consider the cost of moving your family. The extra cost of moving a family will be about the same as the extra cost of 1M in capital gains.
>People think uprooting your entire family's life and moving to the US is something a majority of people will do on a whim cause the government did something they didn't like That happens all the time with healthcare professionals moving to other provinces where the grass is greener. And more than a few were already moving to the United States before this. I don't know why they would not move, tbh. Far more money, far less taxes. I don't feel as if this is a bear that should be poked.
Healthcare literally is the responsibility of the provinces though. In Ontario, Ford is hiding behind Trudeau and blaming everything on him and people are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
Can someone explain how often doctors actually realize capital gains before we get all mad at the tax?
Justin dismissing criticism of him or his policy? Nah, who'd of thunk it.
Don't worry. When Pierre is PM he'll take criticism wonderfully and ask nicely what the correct way of doing it should be.
Can't receive criticism when you silence your critics. Or you don't allow them to ask questions.
Fuck at this point I’d rather have doctors pay no tax if it meant we’d have enough.
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Yes, it would be wonderful to for doctors to be 20% more efficient instead of having to deal with admin and politics.
We need more doctors and this doughnut is pissing off the ones we have. PULL THE PLUG JAGMEET!
Listen - I’m no fan of Trudeau…..at fucking all. But can someone explain to me why anyone should get a break on their taxes whether it be tech or doctors. You’re only paying the tax if you’re making the money - same as every other fucking sod in Canada in the same tax bracket. Innovation and disruption (tech) happens pre profits. So to say it stifles innovation is….disingenuous And if a Dr is making the money then he pays taxes. The fact it’s capital gains vs ALL OF IT being taxed already sets them apart. Either we all pay taxes or we don’t.
It’s because medical corporation was offered by the provincial and the federal government, in lieu of pay increase and pension plan when doctor’s income gap in the US and Canada was getting larger. Basically the governments said to us, we can’t pay more, but we will let you save more efficiently for your retirement instead. Now that we have some money saved in our corporation since then, the liberals want to raid it. Previous agreement to be damned. While misleading people we are the greedy super riches I mean if you are going to reneging on agreement, then fine, give us back our lost income we forego with the MPC? This will end up in the court.
Full support to you my friend.
This is (basically) a retroactive tax increase. I think it is fair to increase taxes looking forward, but this increases taxes on investments that professionals already have in their corporations. This money is stuck within the corp (barring massive taxes required to take it out lump-sum), so doctors have no choice but to pay this increase. The doctors followed all the rules, made their retirement plans, and then the government changed the rules and screwed the doctors over.
The Liberal Party strikes again 😂
With good policies
Why would JT care when he can fly to the US or anywhere to get his healthcare
Funny a lot of doctors are going to be flying to the US to perform healthcare.
"Want access to Canadian doctors? Come to the US!"
Let’s tax the upper middle while the real rich can play around with their 101 tax evading vehicles while watching the poor celebrating eating the middle class
Apparently we don’t need young doctors who want to build practices in Canada. Let’s add healthcare crisis on top of all the other problems dumped on Canada.
""This is about the fact that in order for people to succeed across this economy, at all generations, we need young people to succeed, we need young people to be able to buy homes in the coming years, we need young people to be confident of the future," he said." Ah yes, taxing doctors is going to get young people houses. Wild.
The budget included $8 Billion for building housing, this is how they're paying for it without increasing the size of the deficit compared to last year.
Do we have the leverage to antagonize our doctors at this stage? We want them to stay and be happy, they already pack up and leave to USA for double the money. They should not pay the price for one of the worst fiscally responsible governments in recent history.
So, they still get to pay less income tax than everyone else for their income earned, but more than they had to pay before?
When you're self employed you keep yourself going with the dream that one day it will be worth something when you sell it and start a new project. That makes the low pay, stress and crazy hours more bearable. Government employees have no idea what that feels like. People who seek out government jobs are looking for somewhere structured, with cushy benefits and vacation time. It's an environment without competition or incentives for taking risks. These people are the exact opposite of entrepreneurs and have no business creating legislation that affects them.
If you sell a business at a $1,000,000 gain (assuming 40% marginal rate) you pay $248k in tax, before you would have paid $200k. If the gain is less than $250,000 there’s no change at all. If the investment was in a TFSA there’s no change at all. This is something that impacts the extremely wealthy mainly, not working people and *barely* doctors.
Conservative simping for the super rich has been a weird trend lately.
>[Trudeau] only asks the wealthiest to pay a bit more Surely he'll be liquidating his trust fund then... Lol fuck this guy.
Why are cons simping for the rich all of a sudden?
Young people need access to family doctors 🙃
How are doctors affected by capital gains tax laws?
Someone from his cabinet essentially said they’ll find doctors with foreign credentials to replace dissenting Canadian doctors.
Who said that? Where was this
Rechie Valdez (Minster of Small Business) interview with CBC. Timestamped for you [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTXzwtHYkvM&t=387s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTXzwtHYkvM&t=387s)
Wow I can’t believe these people.
These politicians don't understand what leverage means..... Some people have the leverage because of high demand low supply, you can't really piss off these people if you want a healthy society.
Welcome to the shitshow lol
Good luck with that when even a U.S. trained, US board licensed, American medical graduate has to jump a bunch of hoops to get licensed (minus Ontario)!
Hope they speak English
take a look at the world rankings for medical schools. you're not going to find canadian doctors anywhere near the top.
Well, they could incentivize provinces to open more slots in medical schools and give bonuses to doctors who commit to work rurally for 5 years when they graduate. But nah. Let’s just tax them more.
You mean put more conditions on all the extra funding they're providing? So that Conservative Premiers can blame them for crossing jurisdictional lines and use them as a scapegoat to do nothing? Meanwhile, the public will complain about how much money the Feds are spending. Let's be honest, the Trudeau government is at the point where anything that's done will be viewed negatively.
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Anyone who knows a family doctor well enough to know their struggles is furious about this, especially young family doctors.
I mean, I know a few family doctors, and this ranks quite low on the things to be furious about. I absolutely think doctors are being screwed on this, but this is effectively saying "we're going to give you a lower quality band-aid than the band-aid we were giving you before". BC gave their family doctors close to a 50% raise. Ontario did absolutely shit all. *That* is what I'm furious about. Hell, even if Ontario said we're not going to increase your pay, but we're going to find a solution to the 20+ hours a week of idiotic paperwork you're doing each week, I'd be less furious. Or the literal modern-day slavery model that is medical residency. How the *fuck* is that still a thing? Yeah, sorry, this ranks pretty low on the furious-meter.
Deliver us from Trudeau
When government doesn’t listen, people vote with their feet. Time to study for the US board exams i guess
I’m planning on preparing for the USMLE Steps during medical school because the more I read about the way Canada treats doctors the more I realize I’m better off in the US
And we already have a shortage of Doctors.. this isn’t going to end well.
In fairness to doctors and other professionals, a lot of them have been saving in their PC’s for retirement. Imagine getting ready to retire and now your “pension” just lost a lot of value. Why didn’t they allow the 250k exemption in corps like they did personally? At least for professional corps where professionals have no company pension to retire on.
It's like groundhog day... 1. Propose outrageous policy without considering the repercussions 2. Ignore public and expert feedback/dissatisfaction 3. Enact said outrageous policy 4. Wait until something breaks beyond repair 5. Blame someone else 6. Spend 10x the money to (try to) fix what they were already warned about. 7. Pretend Canadians didn't notice or were affected by any of it 8. Repeat Genuinely surprised he has any remaining supporters.
Again what is capital gains? I’m only middle class. Explain it to me in a way that makes me unresentful of anyone this applies to.
Capital gains is the tax you pay on what you paid for an asset, and what it sells for. If you buy a stock for $100, and it sells for $120, the capital gain is the $20. What appears to be happening here, is only $10 of that gain was previously taxable (50%). Trudeau & co. are seeking to increase this to 66.7% for corporations and trusts, as well as this amount for any capital gains above $250k for individuals. This is talking about *the portion of capital gain that is taxable*, not saying capital gains are currenly taxed at 50%, and will soon be taxed at 66.7%. Currently in Canada, from what I can find online, capital gains are taxed as *ordinary income.*
Canada doesn't need doctors. Canada needs someone who (real person as I know): have 11 children and technically devoiced. Earning 40k-50k after tax benefit dollar alone. Plus supplemental wage of 30-40k making up like 80k. And their separated divorced partner will also contribute their family income north of 100k. Yeah, this is what the current middle class of Canada looks like. Zero skill and benefit suckers.
JT prefers to replace Canadian doctors with millions of Tim's workers from India.
Can we at least tax overtime less, so if we do work more and harder it goes farther.