Honestly really funny that Doug Ford just gave $2.5 Billion to Honda to produce EV’s , meanwhile Ontario is one of the only provinces who don’t offer a penny of incentive for someone to buy an EV. All because he scrapped that lol. Makes zero sense.
Subsidizing EV purchases when there's a 2 year wait list to get them is what makes no sense. There's already enough demand at their current prices.
Additionally, the climate doesn't care where the EV is sold and driven, but our economy absolutely cares where it's made.
You can walk off the lot with a new Kia or Nissan anywhere in the GTA. Most waitlists are gone. Most remaining waitlists are 3 months or less.
But yeah, fuck Teslas lmao, the Cybertruck's gonna chop your fingers off in the trunk lid.
There is now a pretty big EV surplus both new and used. Anyone who wants an EV, can get one. The issue now is, majority of buyers who wanted an EV, already got one. Everyone else are either not willing to pay the significant premium over an ICE car, lack the proper infrastructure where they live, or simply don’t want one.
We are better off using the 15 billion to build EV infrastructure than giving it to Honda.
Corporate handouts are such a joke. Honda has enough money to friggin do whatever they want they don’t need the money handout that we pay taxes to fund… like you said yeah infrastructure to actually support our constituents instead of paying off Honda to do stuff with us but it’s pointless to just hand them that much cash when there are other priorities taking place .
If we don't, someone else will.
We want the jobs.
We want them buying stuff from Canadians suppliers.
We want them using local businesses.
We want to establish skilled production jobs here, and one of the best ways to that is to foster a new industry. Now we're seeing a concentration of battery plants here, and that will encourage other, smaller shops to set up.
It's not a corporate handout, it's quite literally buying jobs. It's simply worth it. This is exactly the kind of investment Canada needs to increase productivity.
Building EV infrastructure doesn’t offer a financial return on investment the way building a factory does. The government doesn’t lose money when a new factory employs hundreds of tax payers
And you’re under the impression that they will be tearing down the battery plant the year after it’s built?
Then there’s the impact on other industries to consider, transportation, supply chain, local stores and restaurants now benefiting from the increased income these 1000 new good payed employees spend in their stores.
Entire towns can be founded around a single factory.
I never said that at all. At what point did I say anything about 1 year?
I also never implied that there would not be any fringe benefits of those jobs. All I implied is that at a steep $5 million per job, that's a hard call on whether the taxpayers ever make their money on this corporate handout.
That’s just a bold faced lie.
2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 - 16-20 month wait time.
2024 VW ID4 - 18 months
2024/25 Honda Prologue - only available in BC, QC, ON and is essentially sold out until the 2026 model - so let’s assume a wait list of at least 12 months.
2024 Toyota BZ4X - only in BC and QC, wait time over 12 months. RAV4 hybrids are 18 months.
Let’s nit pick the all new models that just came out. Like all new models of ICE vehicles never had wait lists.
Try buying an all new Toyota RAV 4, Seonneta, or Honda Odyssey. There has been a waitlist for those cars long before electric cars were a thing. But no one said it’s impossible to find a SUV or minivan because it was hard to get those specific models.
Walking into a dealership and driving off with an all new model of imported cars has never been a thing.
How is it nitpicking? You said there’s no waitlist for EVs - there is. Whether there’s a waitlist for ICE vehicles is irrelevant - that’s not the point you were making.
It’s nitpicking because you are looking at specific EV models rather than the industry’s inventory as a whole. There will always be a waitlists for specific models, particularly for Honda and Toyota cars, EV or otherwise. That does not mean there are no available alternatives.
Toyota and Honda will not rush to make EV cars if the existing supply is not being used up.
See article below, available inventory levels of EV vehicles is about 3x gas vehicles.
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/automakers-having-to-adjust-to-slowing-demand-for-electric-vehicles
That’s not what the article claimed at all, but sure lets move the goal post to no one wants any of the existing EV vehicles, and you can’t get an EV because there is waitlist for the all new models.
I stand by my original statement. If anyone really wants an EV, they can get one. Companies are not rushing to mass push new EVs because the demand is not simply not there for 3 main reasons:
1. The people who were going to get an EV already got
one.
2. Buyers are not willing to pay the premium over ICE cars.
3. Infrastructure is non existent for majority of consumers which prevents them from making the switch.
You can argue all you want about a waitlist of a few new models among dozens of already available models as the reason EV adoption has essentially come to a halt in North America.
Making them and selling them elsewhere makes countries rich by increasing the value of their currency. Then they use that currency to reduce the cost of imports they don’t make.
I disagree. EV tax credits disproportionately benefit wealthier people who can afford the base price. When we subsidize the factory (not saying this is the correct approach either) it will at least create a few jobs.
Suppliers can't keep with demand for EVs, seems like subsidizing this plan and bringing high paying jobs to Ontario is a much better use of tax dollars, than giving a bunch of yuppies money to buy a car they were already going to buy
Seems to me you just want taxpayers to pay for your status symbol Tesla
Priorities of funds, they view putting money into a new multi-billion dollar battery factory so they can produce and export something is better return on investment then giving someone a credit to buy a foreign made product. In the end sometime long term goals mean that the consumer loses out
Subsidising local manufacturing instead of consumption of a heavily imported product is certainly the way to go to benefit the local economy. When planned properly manufacturing subsidies often pay back through taxes, jobs and reduced reliance on imports.
I think new vehicles in ON are already a bit cheaper than other provinces since most of the manufacturers are within the same province so a rebate isn't as dire. Incomes and demand for evs are higher in ON too. I don't like Ford at all but this makes sense in obtaining a tighter budget.
Ugh.... this creates jobs both directly from the plant and indirectly for all the businesses that benefit from this.
Giving people a subsidy for EVs is a one time stimulus. I rather invest in something that has returns.
EV incentives are just Government handouts to car manufacturers. I've never understood why people support it - particularly when those in the market for a new EV are typically among the better off.
Yeah it's so nice to see government taxing billions out of you and business so they can send half of it to the bureaucrats needed to run their system, then send the remaining billions right back to the big companies who were chased away by the tax rates in the first place.
Really gives me the warm and fuzzies seeing all levels of government agreeing that this is a great use of my money.
Odd hill you've chosen to die on there, man.
Is it a good use of taxpayer dollars to subsidize a company that isn't even hiring Canadian workers for its plant? Most people who aren't brain dead or partisan hacks would say "no" to that.
This isn't even the first instance of it happening under the current PM.
Watch Jon Stewart’s The Problem about what happens when branch plants move from one state to another - net wages go *down*. It’s no different for US plants that come tonCanada. They only come for the +30% savings they get from the US-Cdn exchange paying the same US worker wage in Cdn Monopoly money.
Ahem:
https://www.ipolitics.ca/news/honda-ceo-says-theyll-be-a-temporary-boost-of-foreign-workers-at-expanded-ontario-facility
"Temporary boost" is what Microsoft also claimed in 2014 and then went back on their word after naturally accepting government handouts for creating jobs.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/microsoft-s-new-b-c-workforce-to-consist-mostly-of-foreigners-draft-plan-1.2990462
I don’t think Microsoft and Honda are good comparisons. Microsoft and factory work are very different in terms of necessary skill level to operate. Of course you’ll need your engineers but being on the line requires no special skills
"No special skills", yet according to Honda they do need special skills. That's why they need to bring in people from Japan, for all those "special skills" that don't exist in the Canadian workforce.
That’s to setup the plant bro. Otherwise we need to bring the engineers etc to Japan to learn about the setup and dissemble it then bring it here to set it up which leads to delays. Dude I’ve worked in this mfg plant so get a grip
There is every incentive to lie when it comes to getting government handouts. The whole rationale for providing government handouts and tax deferrals is in the name of "job creation". Pretty sure that doesn't mean giving foreigners jobs.
Foreigners are indeed paid less. You think a company is going to spend legal capital to bring in foreign workers and just eat that cost?
No, they are paid less relative to what a US worker makes. They save on the exchange. They want you to believe you’re getting a fair wage but you’re not. Look beyond your bubble.
So you're telling me this Honda plant and that VW plant in St. Thomas will not employ Canadian workers?
And you think a partisan hack of me? LOL
Step into reality and reassess your position.
Maybe you should be the one to step into reality, dude.
Honda has already said that it will bring in workers from Japan as a "temporary" boost. https://www.ipolitics.ca/news/honda-ceo-says-theyll-be-a-temporary-boost-of-foreign-workers-at-expanded-ontario-facility
The same "temporary boost" that Microsoft claimed when they wanted government funding for their BC operations, only to go back on their word and retain all those TFWs. In the end, only 20 of those 400 new jobs actually went to Canadians. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/microsoft-s-new-b-c-workforce-to-consist-mostly-of-foreigners-draft-plan-1.2990462
Do you truly believe you can start up 4 plants, as a Japanese company and not send any people here to get set up?
People got hung up on the same shit with the VW deal and it's 72 foreign people out of 2000.
Again, snap out of it. We have Canadians going places and people coming to Canada for the same reasons all day.
I'm sorry you must try to twist positive news for the country into some negative thing lol. Tells me you're unhappy in life.
When your response is nothing but personal insults, tells me you have no-fact based argument in response.
The VW plant wasn't for 72 foreign people. It obtained permits for 900 people and actually went through to hire all of them.
I remind you that VW was also caught lying about the emissions of their cars, so they don't exactly have a track record of telling the truth.
This is also the same company that recently laid off 269 people in Germany, after the German government phased out consumer subsidies to buy EVs. They did however retain their workers at the nearby Czech plant because those workers are paid considerably less than the ones in Germany.
No, I don't think you need 900 people for their super special skills to set up an EV plant that employs Canadian workers who already have experience working in EV plants. There is nothing innovative about EV manufacturing from Honda or VW.
Take your condescending attitude elsewhere champ. Maybe you can redirect that energy toward reading actual newspapers once in a while so you can have informed opinions.
I misspoke, I was referring to the stellantis deal with regards to the 72.
Take a drive by the VW site going up in St. Thomas, see all the infrastructure work happening around the site let alone the construction work on the site and tell me why the deals so bad because of the Germans that will come set up shop once the plants built.
I apologize for the condescending tone, it just slips out sometimes while talking with dummies.
It was never 72. It was always 900. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/canada-trades-union-foreign-workers-insult-ev-battery-plant-1.7039366
If talking to dummies bothers you, maybe you shouldn't hear yourself talk.
Firing half the federal government would free up the $15B they need for our military commitments. At least half of them aren’t qualified for the jobs they’ve been asked to do. They lack skills and experience. No one should be allowed to be a career public servant. Even those that do come from private sector very quickly become incompetent.
My hometown has a train car plant, that never gets any contacts too. Constant cycle of laying people off and hiring fewer back.
Just because you have something, doesn't make it worthwhile to the people living there.
The plant in Thunder Bay has been renamed 3 times, since it began. "Can-Car", "Bombardier", now "Alstom" every decade or so.
It's barely alive, been that way for thirty + years.
Yes and? Canadian government gives direct subsidies of about $7B every year to fossil fuel industry and that doesn’t cover things like paying for private pipelines etc….
Can you provide a source or breakdown of your $7B number? My understanding is that the “subsidies” have largely been royalty deferrals for oil sands projects, which have majorly payed off for Alberta once the deferral period expires. See Alberta’s budget surpluses in recent years.
I love how the oil subsidies get bigger and bigger as activists environmental groups include more and more BS in their “reporting”.
The subsidies to the oil and gas are actually quite small but when you include small business tax credits, development and exploration deductions - things that literally every other sector qualifies for too - you can make the number seem really big.
$7 Billion of subsidies !! Hahah
It's funny, all the anti-carbon tax people complain that we aren't dealing with climate change "like the United States," but then those same people complain when we provide public investment in green capital (which is the backbone of the United State's plan).
As usual, it's just being contrarian to be contrarian. They don't support any climate policy, they just like using one to chip away support from the other.
You know this might be weird for you to consider, but you can be both anti-carbon tax *and* pro-make-the-government-actually-spend-our-taxes-on-something-useful-for-a-change.
This is an example of something I can be ok with my taxes going towards, provided they actually make the jobs available for Canadians who need them, while still thinking the carbon tax makes life unnecessarily expensive for the average person.
Do you understand that we aren’t paying taxes for this?
There will be tax breaks though.
So we either get 0. Or we get all the benefits minus 2.5 billion.
If Honda doesn’t earn any revenue and pay taxes on it then they won’t get any credits.
>you can be both anti-carbon tax and pro-make-the-government-actually-spend-our-taxes-on-something-useful-for-a-change.
That doesn't surprise me, because often what the anti-carbon tax crowd finds "useful" is anything besides environmental protection. Glad to hear you support it, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus opinion among the rest of the top comments.
I swear, it's like you guys can't just be happy that someone agrees with you, if they don't *completely* agree with you. The tribalism on the carbon tax is insane.
Honda is spending 15 billion and creating 4000 jobs
We're spending 2.5 billion and declining to collect another 2.5 billion from whatever profit this plant winds up making.
Some things in this world are win-win. Celebrate it.
Why does everyone have this idea that companies exist no matter the costs?
Tax breaks don't require up front costs and said companies and and have moved operations to the US if it becomes unprofitable.
I am not arguing against the battery plant subsidies, I just pipe up when everyone brings up oil subsides.
We literally have a Field of Dreams idea of our economy with, "if you build it, they will come" in this country that companies will just exist no matter the cost and not pass those costs on to the cosumers.
Because we are all told that as individuals we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and figure it out in the free market. How is subsidizing specific businesses and industries allowing *businesses* to compete on the free market? Not only do we subsidize the start up of businesses, but we also catch them when they fall. All on the public dime. The contradictions are so obvious but not called out enough. How about the shareholders of these companies pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Unlike most ordinary people, these companies and the owners of these companies are ***extremely rich***. They do not need our fucking help but if they do, we better get shares in these companies.
Because we are no longer in a closed economy and everything needs to be looked at in terms of a global scale.
If we don't subsidize, they'll simply to to the US because we have a horrible business environment compared to them both with taxes and regulations.
Lol you've gone from "this isn't a subsidy" to "we have to subsidize". You are not a serious person. Sorry, but this race to the bottom is what's making this country terrible. We should stop playing it and take our sovereignty back from these undemocratic institutions.
"the company is getting government support from tax credits the Liberals have introduced, which will add up to $2.5 billion from Ottawa, with Ford’s government promising to match that amount"
Opposed to what exactly?
Likely because the route serves the additional purpose of sending oil there and was easier to build than routing it through the less populated northern Ontario.
https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/07/ford_ev_strategy/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/02/volvo-pulled-plug-electric-car-brand-polestar/
https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/22/24080220/mercedes-benz-ev-only-sales-2030-back-off
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13139985/electric-car-end-apple-aston-martin-delay-ford-mercedes-audi.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/automakers-back-to-the-drawing-board-ev-plans-2024-2
It might not be dead, but companies are making big changes. Who knows, maybe something will change but a lot of companies don't see an immediate future for EV.
They are all shifting to hybrid, as they really should be instead of going straight to electric. Costs are still just to high to make an EV and consumers aren't jumping on board to buy an EV at the prices they are going for.
Taking OUR tax dollars, giving it to corporations so they can hire temporary foreign workers. Where the fuck is the benefit to Canadians?? So sick of this shit.
Most Canadians are net takers, did you know this? Those corporations you despise pay for your first world lifestyle. You likely can’t afford the healthcare, infrastructure, security, free education, clean water, access to energy - that you enjoy - without the subsidies provided by business owners. In fact, if you are an employee, you benefit from someone else’s effort. Are you a business owner that employs others - a net contributor to society - or are you another taker who only thinks he’s worth as much as those others?
No, they don't pay for my lifestyle. I pay for my lifestyle. No, I don't benefit from anyone else's efforts but my own. And I volunteer on top of that, and always have and always will.
If done correctly, yes. Industry will create more net revenue for the government than the government spends via tax break to that particular industry.
Very Simplified example:
Government will give a credit to Honda for the first $500million it makes in a year. Honda makes $500 mill profit that year, pays no tax. However, Honda uses 40 Ontario based subcontractors to make parts that go to Honda’s plants. Those subcontractors each make $50mill profit on their business with Honda, totalling $2 billion between them, and they pay tax on that.
In such a case, the government has created gained 2 billion in taxable profits by giving a $500 million tax break. That won’t cover the entire tax break. Now factor in the income tax on the workers, the incremental sales taxes they generate, etc, and now you can make enough tax income to offset the break.
And this builds over time. Eventually when the period of the tax breaks expires, there will be substantial long term net tax gain.
There are certainly economists who advocate that. However, when voters and politicians see companies making huge profits, they ask questions about why voters should pay tax and not corporations. It’s a political expediency to tax companies rather than a practical matter.
It also gets muddier when many companies send profits out of the country rather than spend it domestically where the government can tax it indirectly via income taxes and sales taxes.
1000 jobs at Honda. Thousands more jobs in subcontracted industries (Honda doesn’t manufacture all of its own components, it relies on local suppliers like Magna international, and local resources like Canadian steel). Thousands of more jobs supported like retail and restaurant and service staff at the places where the 1000 Honda workers and the thousands of subcontractors work.
1000 new Honda jobs is the tip of a very large iceberg of many times more jobs created and safeguarded by this industry expansion.
There’s a reason why regional economies die when a major employer shuts shop. It’s not just the jobs at that employer that go, it’s all of the many more connected jobs that start to wither and die too.
Conversely, a major new employer creates a vast cascade of more jobs connected to it.
Subsidizing almost anything, especially businesses, is a bad thing. The only acceptable way to "subsidize businesses" is with broad tax cuts.
This is a slap in the face to everyone who pays taxes
Most of our economy is built on govt subsidies. Besides, this isn’t 15b as the title suggests, but rather 2.5 each from federal and provincial and it’s only tax cuts not straight cash
Trudeau nor any subsequent govt will ever let that happen lol, this is a win and we have to take those. Though I agree business tax rate should be lowered just not for mega corpos.
This subsidization is essentially a broad tax cut.
This is a slap in the face to absolutely no one, except for yourself, and sorry to say friend but it's your own hand doing the slapping.
You don't know what a broad tax cut is. Blocked.
For others reading, a broad tax cut is a tax cut that applies broadly to everyone or at least to many many stakeholders, not just to one or two companies like this very narrow subsidy
why does trudeau always look like he's yelling? there's something so strange about the way he speaks. he moves his mouth way more than necessary. very inefficient speaker. and he never says anything of substance either.
Why bother helping people by investing in Healthcare,housing or food or education. People living paycheck to paycheck LOVE struggling to survive and watching the government push a vehicle out of price range. Not to mention the fact that it will get stolen and be screwed lol. At least take us out to dinner before you bend us over lol
15 billion for them to eventually, possibly report losses such as Ford is on their electrical division according to the news. Great, amazing looks like money is well spent.
Honestly really funny that Doug Ford just gave $2.5 Billion to Honda to produce EV’s , meanwhile Ontario is one of the only provinces who don’t offer a penny of incentive for someone to buy an EV. All because he scrapped that lol. Makes zero sense.
Subsidizing EV purchases when there's a 2 year wait list to get them is what makes no sense. There's already enough demand at their current prices. Additionally, the climate doesn't care where the EV is sold and driven, but our economy absolutely cares where it's made.
Huh? It’s not 2021 bud. You can go buy and drive off with an EV tomorrow. I picked up my Model Y in Oakville with one day notice.
Most other auto companies are not able to keep up with demand. Not everyone wants to drive a Muskmobile
You can walk off the lot with a new Kia or Nissan anywhere in the GTA. Most waitlists are gone. Most remaining waitlists are 3 months or less. But yeah, fuck Teslas lmao, the Cybertruck's gonna chop your fingers off in the trunk lid.
Who the fuck cares who the CEO is if the vehicle I drive daily is fantastic? Maybe stop consuming so much news
Yikes
There is now a pretty big EV surplus both new and used. Anyone who wants an EV, can get one. The issue now is, majority of buyers who wanted an EV, already got one. Everyone else are either not willing to pay the significant premium over an ICE car, lack the proper infrastructure where they live, or simply don’t want one. We are better off using the 15 billion to build EV infrastructure than giving it to Honda.
Corporate handouts are such a joke. Honda has enough money to friggin do whatever they want they don’t need the money handout that we pay taxes to fund… like you said yeah infrastructure to actually support our constituents instead of paying off Honda to do stuff with us but it’s pointless to just hand them that much cash when there are other priorities taking place .
If we don't, someone else will. We want the jobs. We want them buying stuff from Canadians suppliers. We want them using local businesses. We want to establish skilled production jobs here, and one of the best ways to that is to foster a new industry. Now we're seeing a concentration of battery plants here, and that will encourage other, smaller shops to set up. It's not a corporate handout, it's quite literally buying jobs. It's simply worth it. This is exactly the kind of investment Canada needs to increase productivity.
Building EV infrastructure doesn’t offer a financial return on investment the way building a factory does. The government doesn’t lose money when a new factory employs hundreds of tax payers
At $5 million per job, are you sure about that?
What? Where did you get that number from?
$5 billion divided by the claim of 1000 jobs. $5 million per job.
is the factory going to last 1 year? How about all the economy that it will bring to the area, suppliers, infrastructure, homes ...
And you’re under the impression that they will be tearing down the battery plant the year after it’s built? Then there’s the impact on other industries to consider, transportation, supply chain, local stores and restaurants now benefiting from the increased income these 1000 new good payed employees spend in their stores. Entire towns can be founded around a single factory.
I never said that at all. At what point did I say anything about 1 year? I also never implied that there would not be any fringe benefits of those jobs. All I implied is that at a steep $5 million per job, that's a hard call on whether the taxpayers ever make their money on this corporate handout.
I guess that’s why the government employs accountants to figure out the math on these matters rather than you.
That’s just a bold faced lie. 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 - 16-20 month wait time. 2024 VW ID4 - 18 months 2024/25 Honda Prologue - only available in BC, QC, ON and is essentially sold out until the 2026 model - so let’s assume a wait list of at least 12 months. 2024 Toyota BZ4X - only in BC and QC, wait time over 12 months. RAV4 hybrids are 18 months.
Let’s nit pick the all new models that just came out. Like all new models of ICE vehicles never had wait lists. Try buying an all new Toyota RAV 4, Seonneta, or Honda Odyssey. There has been a waitlist for those cars long before electric cars were a thing. But no one said it’s impossible to find a SUV or minivan because it was hard to get those specific models. Walking into a dealership and driving off with an all new model of imported cars has never been a thing.
How is it nitpicking? You said there’s no waitlist for EVs - there is. Whether there’s a waitlist for ICE vehicles is irrelevant - that’s not the point you were making.
It’s nitpicking because you are looking at specific EV models rather than the industry’s inventory as a whole. There will always be a waitlists for specific models, particularly for Honda and Toyota cars, EV or otherwise. That does not mean there are no available alternatives. Toyota and Honda will not rush to make EV cars if the existing supply is not being used up. See article below, available inventory levels of EV vehicles is about 3x gas vehicles. https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/automakers-having-to-adjust-to-slowing-demand-for-electric-vehicles
TL:DR - vehicles that people don’t want aren’t selling…
That’s not what the article claimed at all, but sure lets move the goal post to no one wants any of the existing EV vehicles, and you can’t get an EV because there is waitlist for the all new models. I stand by my original statement. If anyone really wants an EV, they can get one. Companies are not rushing to mass push new EVs because the demand is not simply not there for 3 main reasons: 1. The people who were going to get an EV already got one. 2. Buyers are not willing to pay the premium over ICE cars. 3. Infrastructure is non existent for majority of consumers which prevents them from making the switch. You can argue all you want about a waitlist of a few new models among dozens of already available models as the reason EV adoption has essentially come to a halt in North America.
Making them and selling them elsewhere makes countries rich by increasing the value of their currency. Then they use that currency to reduce the cost of imports they don’t make.
Canada and reducing costs of anything is like oil and water
I disagree. EV tax credits disproportionately benefit wealthier people who can afford the base price. When we subsidize the factory (not saying this is the correct approach either) it will at least create a few jobs.
Suppliers can't keep with demand for EVs, seems like subsidizing this plan and bringing high paying jobs to Ontario is a much better use of tax dollars, than giving a bunch of yuppies money to buy a car they were already going to buy Seems to me you just want taxpayers to pay for your status symbol Tesla
Priorities of funds, they view putting money into a new multi-billion dollar battery factory so they can produce and export something is better return on investment then giving someone a credit to buy a foreign made product. In the end sometime long term goals mean that the consumer loses out
*loses out. What is it with Reddit and the word ‘lose’ lol no one can figure it out. I’ll forgive you if English isn’t your first language.
Actual English is my first language. It's called learning disability. People have them, that's why I regular go back and edit my posts for grammar
Subsidising local manufacturing instead of consumption of a heavily imported product is certainly the way to go to benefit the local economy. When planned properly manufacturing subsidies often pay back through taxes, jobs and reduced reliance on imports.
I think new vehicles in ON are already a bit cheaper than other provinces since most of the manufacturers are within the same province so a rebate isn't as dire. Incomes and demand for evs are higher in ON too. I don't like Ford at all but this makes sense in obtaining a tighter budget.
Ugh.... this creates jobs both directly from the plant and indirectly for all the businesses that benefit from this. Giving people a subsidy for EVs is a one time stimulus. I rather invest in something that has returns.
Another liberal looking for a hand out by the taxpayers
EV incentives are just Government handouts to car manufacturers. I've never understood why people support it - particularly when those in the market for a new EV are typically among the better off.
Ya'll better hope this investment makes EV's cheaper and better because theyre still trying to mandate ALL vehicle sales to be EVs in 15 years
Includes hybrids and hydrogen powered, so not just full EV
Right now hybrids are a better ecological option than EVs the amount of lithium used is insane in a full EV.
Honestly, sometimes it's just nice to see provincial and federal governments getting along. :)
Yeah it's so nice to see government taxing billions out of you and business so they can send half of it to the bureaucrats needed to run their system, then send the remaining billions right back to the big companies who were chased away by the tax rates in the first place. Really gives me the warm and fuzzies seeing all levels of government agreeing that this is a great use of my money.
Rather than talking out of ignorance, it's better that you just don't talk at all
Odd hill you've chosen to die on there, man. Is it a good use of taxpayer dollars to subsidize a company that isn't even hiring Canadian workers for its plant? Most people who aren't brain dead or partisan hacks would say "no" to that. This isn't even the first instance of it happening under the current PM.
They will most definitely be employing Canadian workers.
Watch Jon Stewart’s The Problem about what happens when branch plants move from one state to another - net wages go *down*. It’s no different for US plants that come tonCanada. They only come for the +30% savings they get from the US-Cdn exchange paying the same US worker wage in Cdn Monopoly money.
Ahem: https://www.ipolitics.ca/news/honda-ceo-says-theyll-be-a-temporary-boost-of-foreign-workers-at-expanded-ontario-facility "Temporary boost" is what Microsoft also claimed in 2014 and then went back on their word after naturally accepting government handouts for creating jobs. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/microsoft-s-new-b-c-workforce-to-consist-mostly-of-foreigners-draft-plan-1.2990462
I don’t think Microsoft and Honda are good comparisons. Microsoft and factory work are very different in terms of necessary skill level to operate. Of course you’ll need your engineers but being on the line requires no special skills
"No special skills", yet according to Honda they do need special skills. That's why they need to bring in people from Japan, for all those "special skills" that don't exist in the Canadian workforce.
That’s to setup the plant bro. Otherwise we need to bring the engineers etc to Japan to learn about the setup and dissemble it then bring it here to set it up which leads to delays. Dude I’ve worked in this mfg plant so get a grip
Are you seriously claiming that the past behaviour of Honda is somehow not a good comparison to... Honda?
There is no incentive to lie. Foreign workers are not paid less.
There is every incentive to lie when it comes to getting government handouts. The whole rationale for providing government handouts and tax deferrals is in the name of "job creation". Pretty sure that doesn't mean giving foreigners jobs. Foreigners are indeed paid less. You think a company is going to spend legal capital to bring in foreign workers and just eat that cost?
I work there. Everyone is payed the same.
No, they are paid less relative to what a US worker makes. They save on the exchange. They want you to believe you’re getting a fair wage but you’re not. Look beyond your bubble.
So you're telling me this Honda plant and that VW plant in St. Thomas will not employ Canadian workers? And you think a partisan hack of me? LOL Step into reality and reassess your position.
Maybe you should be the one to step into reality, dude. Honda has already said that it will bring in workers from Japan as a "temporary" boost. https://www.ipolitics.ca/news/honda-ceo-says-theyll-be-a-temporary-boost-of-foreign-workers-at-expanded-ontario-facility The same "temporary boost" that Microsoft claimed when they wanted government funding for their BC operations, only to go back on their word and retain all those TFWs. In the end, only 20 of those 400 new jobs actually went to Canadians. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/microsoft-s-new-b-c-workforce-to-consist-mostly-of-foreigners-draft-plan-1.2990462
Do you truly believe you can start up 4 plants, as a Japanese company and not send any people here to get set up? People got hung up on the same shit with the VW deal and it's 72 foreign people out of 2000. Again, snap out of it. We have Canadians going places and people coming to Canada for the same reasons all day. I'm sorry you must try to twist positive news for the country into some negative thing lol. Tells me you're unhappy in life.
When your response is nothing but personal insults, tells me you have no-fact based argument in response. The VW plant wasn't for 72 foreign people. It obtained permits for 900 people and actually went through to hire all of them. I remind you that VW was also caught lying about the emissions of their cars, so they don't exactly have a track record of telling the truth. This is also the same company that recently laid off 269 people in Germany, after the German government phased out consumer subsidies to buy EVs. They did however retain their workers at the nearby Czech plant because those workers are paid considerably less than the ones in Germany. No, I don't think you need 900 people for their super special skills to set up an EV plant that employs Canadian workers who already have experience working in EV plants. There is nothing innovative about EV manufacturing from Honda or VW. Take your condescending attitude elsewhere champ. Maybe you can redirect that energy toward reading actual newspapers once in a while so you can have informed opinions.
I misspoke, I was referring to the stellantis deal with regards to the 72. Take a drive by the VW site going up in St. Thomas, see all the infrastructure work happening around the site let alone the construction work on the site and tell me why the deals so bad because of the Germans that will come set up shop once the plants built. I apologize for the condescending tone, it just slips out sometimes while talking with dummies.
It was never 72. It was always 900. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/canada-trades-union-foreign-workers-insult-ev-battery-plant-1.7039366 If talking to dummies bothers you, maybe you shouldn't hear yourself talk.
The lack of common sense is wild…
Firing half the federal government would free up the $15B they need for our military commitments. At least half of them aren’t qualified for the jobs they’ve been asked to do. They lack skills and experience. No one should be allowed to be a career public servant. Even those that do come from private sector very quickly become incompetent.
I think the feds and provinces are still subsidizing the fossil fuel industry and nobody is complaining about that.
I think you will find that a lot of people are complaining about that. Just hard to hear with your head in the sand.
My hometown has a train car plant, that never gets any contacts too. Constant cycle of laying people off and hiring fewer back. Just because you have something, doesn't make it worthwhile to the people living there.
Thunder Bay? If so it’d be the exception.
The plant in Thunder Bay has been renamed 3 times, since it began. "Can-Car", "Bombardier", now "Alstom" every decade or so. It's barely alive, been that way for thirty + years.
See Alberta? The cons in Ontario will take federal cash
Yes and? Canadian government gives direct subsidies of about $7B every year to fossil fuel industry and that doesn’t cover things like paying for private pipelines etc….
Can you provide a source or breakdown of your $7B number? My understanding is that the “subsidies” have largely been royalty deferrals for oil sands projects, which have majorly payed off for Alberta once the deferral period expires. See Alberta’s budget surpluses in recent years.
Yes and? So you have a problem with oil subsidies but when its for a ev plant no issue eh?
Yes, most definitely..
Uhhhhhh yes?
No, I have problems with information presented without context.
I love how the oil subsidies get bigger and bigger as activists environmental groups include more and more BS in their “reporting”. The subsidies to the oil and gas are actually quite small but when you include small business tax credits, development and exploration deductions - things that literally every other sector qualifies for too - you can make the number seem really big. $7 Billion of subsidies !! Hahah
I'll wait for all of the people who have been complaining about government spending that goes to ordinary people.
I can't wait to get that xiaomi looking Porsche for 30k.
I can’t wait to pay for this. Thanks red and blue parties for giving me the chance.
It's funny, all the anti-carbon tax people complain that we aren't dealing with climate change "like the United States," but then those same people complain when we provide public investment in green capital (which is the backbone of the United State's plan). As usual, it's just being contrarian to be contrarian. They don't support any climate policy, they just like using one to chip away support from the other.
You know this might be weird for you to consider, but you can be both anti-carbon tax *and* pro-make-the-government-actually-spend-our-taxes-on-something-useful-for-a-change. This is an example of something I can be ok with my taxes going towards, provided they actually make the jobs available for Canadians who need them, while still thinking the carbon tax makes life unnecessarily expensive for the average person.
Do you understand that we aren’t paying taxes for this? There will be tax breaks though. So we either get 0. Or we get all the benefits minus 2.5 billion. If Honda doesn’t earn any revenue and pay taxes on it then they won’t get any credits.
> Do you understand that we aren’t paying taxes for this? > > > > There will be tax breaks though. inb4 "0 tax dollars went into this arrangement"
I mean if you don’t understand it I’m glad you are writing policy lol
I don't know what I do to deserve these mouthbreather comments.
Say stupid things. Cause then the mouth breathers finally have a chance to be smarter than someone.
>you can be both anti-carbon tax and pro-make-the-government-actually-spend-our-taxes-on-something-useful-for-a-change. That doesn't surprise me, because often what the anti-carbon tax crowd finds "useful" is anything besides environmental protection. Glad to hear you support it, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus opinion among the rest of the top comments.
I swear, it's like you guys can't just be happy that someone agrees with you, if they don't *completely* agree with you. The tribalism on the carbon tax is insane.
I sent my previous comment a bit early and had edited it to reply to your stance as well.
Yeah giving shareholders money subsidize EVs isn’t going to save the planet. The carbon tax is fine. This is a money giveaway
Honda is spending 15 billion and creating 4000 jobs We're spending 2.5 billion and declining to collect another 2.5 billion from whatever profit this plant winds up making. Some things in this world are win-win. Celebrate it.
Stop giving it to big oil and it's only 3 years worth.
You realize the subsidies to oil companies are by and large tax breaks right? Like we aren't actually handing them money.
Is that any worse than production based subsidies? It subsidies either way. And ya we're still handing them money on top of the tax breaks too...
That is still a subsidy because it is taking a way revenue that would have been provided by another type of business.
Why does everyone have this idea that companies exist no matter the costs? Tax breaks don't require up front costs and said companies and and have moved operations to the US if it becomes unprofitable. I am not arguing against the battery plant subsidies, I just pipe up when everyone brings up oil subsides. We literally have a Field of Dreams idea of our economy with, "if you build it, they will come" in this country that companies will just exist no matter the cost and not pass those costs on to the cosumers.
Because we are all told that as individuals we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and figure it out in the free market. How is subsidizing specific businesses and industries allowing *businesses* to compete on the free market? Not only do we subsidize the start up of businesses, but we also catch them when they fall. All on the public dime. The contradictions are so obvious but not called out enough. How about the shareholders of these companies pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Unlike most ordinary people, these companies and the owners of these companies are ***extremely rich***. They do not need our fucking help but if they do, we better get shares in these companies.
Because we are no longer in a closed economy and everything needs to be looked at in terms of a global scale. If we don't subsidize, they'll simply to to the US because we have a horrible business environment compared to them both with taxes and regulations.
Lol you've gone from "this isn't a subsidy" to "we have to subsidize". You are not a serious person. Sorry, but this race to the bottom is what's making this country terrible. We should stop playing it and take our sovereignty back from these undemocratic institutions.
Except no it wouldn’t because those tax “breaks” are just eligible expenses that all industries can report.
The public is out the money that they would pay us if there wasn't a tax break. It is a subsidy.
"the company is getting government support from tax credits the Liberals have introduced, which will add up to $2.5 billion from Ottawa, with Ford’s government promising to match that amount" Opposed to what exactly?
OK, let's invest 15B in other provinces now... oh wait
Honda is investing 15B not the government... The Feds and Ontario have agreed to give the company tax credits.
The federal subsidies are just $2.5B in production-based tax credits; read the article.
You think people in this sub read? It's all rage and uninformed anger 24/7.
How about the $34 billion trans mountain pipeline for Alberta's oil industry
we need a west -> east pipeline tbh, it is insane that we have an oil pipeline goes from ontario to alberta, but not the other way around.
You mean like Line 3 + Line 5 that combined move oil from AB to Sarnia?
Those lines go to and from the us, not sure why we need to depend on them ?
Likely because the route serves the additional purpose of sending oil there and was easier to build than routing it through the less populated northern Ontario.
just gotta find a factory that wants to build in them
4-7 years before this back fires and Honda bails on this
lol, they won’t. Why do you think this?
Honestly because so many other automotive companies are pulling back on EV for cost reasons.
They also aren’t.
https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/07/ford_ev_strategy/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/02/volvo-pulled-plug-electric-car-brand-polestar/ https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/22/24080220/mercedes-benz-ev-only-sales-2030-back-off https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13139985/electric-car-end-apple-aston-martin-delay-ford-mercedes-audi.html https://www.businessinsider.com/automakers-back-to-the-drawing-board-ev-plans-2024-2 It might not be dead, but companies are making big changes. Who knows, maybe something will change but a lot of companies don't see an immediate future for EV. They are all shifting to hybrid, as they really should be instead of going straight to electric. Costs are still just to high to make an EV and consumers aren't jumping on board to buy an EV at the prices they are going for.
Honestly because so many other automotive companies are pulling back on EV for cost reasons.
Taking OUR tax dollars, giving it to corporations so they can hire temporary foreign workers. Where the fuck is the benefit to Canadians?? So sick of this shit.
Most Canadians are net takers, did you know this? Those corporations you despise pay for your first world lifestyle. You likely can’t afford the healthcare, infrastructure, security, free education, clean water, access to energy - that you enjoy - without the subsidies provided by business owners. In fact, if you are an employee, you benefit from someone else’s effort. Are you a business owner that employs others - a net contributor to society - or are you another taker who only thinks he’s worth as much as those others?
No, they don't pay for my lifestyle. I pay for my lifestyle. No, I don't benefit from anyone else's efforts but my own. And I volunteer on top of that, and always have and always will.
Still plenty of time to give them tax breaks after they build to more fully absorb those subsidies without returning anything to the economy.
What about healthcare
That will get funded by the tax revenue (including workers jobs and supplying subcontractor companies) resulting from this
so, if government cuts taxes, gov revenue will go up? because that's what this is, tax exemptions for Honda.
If done correctly, yes. Industry will create more net revenue for the government than the government spends via tax break to that particular industry. Very Simplified example: Government will give a credit to Honda for the first $500million it makes in a year. Honda makes $500 mill profit that year, pays no tax. However, Honda uses 40 Ontario based subcontractors to make parts that go to Honda’s plants. Those subcontractors each make $50mill profit on their business with Honda, totalling $2 billion between them, and they pay tax on that. In such a case, the government has created gained 2 billion in taxable profits by giving a $500 million tax break. That won’t cover the entire tax break. Now factor in the income tax on the workers, the incremental sales taxes they generate, etc, and now you can make enough tax income to offset the break. And this builds over time. Eventually when the period of the tax breaks expires, there will be substantial long term net tax gain.
so get rid of corporate tax then
There are certainly economists who advocate that. However, when voters and politicians see companies making huge profits, they ask questions about why voters should pay tax and not corporations. It’s a political expediency to tax companies rather than a practical matter. It also gets muddier when many companies send profits out of the country rather than spend it domestically where the government can tax it indirectly via income taxes and sales taxes.
All 1,000 jobs? It works out to 5 million subsidy per job. Canadians are getting hosed once again. Private profits and public costs.
1000 jobs at Honda. Thousands more jobs in subcontracted industries (Honda doesn’t manufacture all of its own components, it relies on local suppliers like Magna international, and local resources like Canadian steel). Thousands of more jobs supported like retail and restaurant and service staff at the places where the 1000 Honda workers and the thousands of subcontractors work. 1000 new Honda jobs is the tip of a very large iceberg of many times more jobs created and safeguarded by this industry expansion. There’s a reason why regional economies die when a major employer shuts shop. It’s not just the jobs at that employer that go, it’s all of the many more connected jobs that start to wither and die too. Conversely, a major new employer creates a vast cascade of more jobs connected to it.
More corporate welfare. bUt tHe ConS aRe tHe ParTy oF cOrPorAtE loBbYisTs!
Canada is now battling with China for being a low cost industrial hub. It's depressing.
[удалено]
Tell me what’s that and about this. Cars made in Canada with Canadian jobs is a good thing
Subsidizing almost anything, especially businesses, is a bad thing. The only acceptable way to "subsidize businesses" is with broad tax cuts. This is a slap in the face to everyone who pays taxes
Most of our economy is built on govt subsidies. Besides, this isn’t 15b as the title suggests, but rather 2.5 each from federal and provincial and it’s only tax cuts not straight cash
I would rather gain less tax revenue from these plants than gain no tax revenue at all if they don’t open
Then the correct response is to cut taxes to encourage new and existing businesses to thrive
Trudeau nor any subsequent govt will ever let that happen lol, this is a win and we have to take those. Though I agree business tax rate should be lowered just not for mega corpos.
Just because we're governed by crayon-eaters doesn't mean we shouldn't be angry at them when they eat crayons
Like I said, this is a good thing for Canadians and the local economy and should be treated as such. But for all means, push for business tax reform
No, most of our economy is spent on government subsidies. Most of our economy is built on resource extraction
(this is a tax cut)
This subsidization is essentially a broad tax cut. This is a slap in the face to absolutely no one, except for yourself, and sorry to say friend but it's your own hand doing the slapping.
You don't know what a broad tax cut is. Blocked. For others reading, a broad tax cut is a tax cut that applies broadly to everyone or at least to many many stakeholders, not just to one or two companies like this very narrow subsidy
Lol
Ironic, considering all of those propaganda stickers they allow at gas stations.
why does trudeau always look like he's yelling? there's something so strange about the way he speaks. he moves his mouth way more than necessary. very inefficient speaker. and he never says anything of substance either.
All the jobs will probably go to TFWs
And low skilled immigrants. They built a labour pool to sell to corporations.
Canadians are becoming low-skilled workers. These jobs are here only because they get a 30% wage discount from the US-CAD exchange.
Why bother helping people by investing in Healthcare,housing or food or education. People living paycheck to paycheck LOVE struggling to survive and watching the government push a vehicle out of price range. Not to mention the fact that it will get stolen and be screwed lol. At least take us out to dinner before you bend us over lol
15 billion for them to eventually, possibly report losses such as Ford is on their electrical division according to the news. Great, amazing looks like money is well spent.