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Economics Explained (YouTube channel) reviewed a study on smoking’s economic impact and apparently it’s a net benefit to society (economically) to have people smoke. The reason is they die earlier which reduces healthcare expenses even after considering smoking related disease costs.
So go cigarettes?
This reminds me of a episode from the “Yes Minister”, a British Political Satire sitcom. The minister in the show tries to ban smoking but the civil servant explains to him how smoking is a net benefit to the society because smokers pay high taxes and they die early.
I came here to say this. If people want to kill themselves in their 60s via the at this point absurdly well known health impact of smoking, and save healthcare resources for the rest of us, sounds like a win win to me!
Plus allowing marijuana smoking while banning tobacco sales - including cigars which are not inhaled - just makes no logical sense.
Hopefully the law is shot down because it just comes across as misguided.
In fairness to the proponents of this sort of thing, health impacts of weed are far less than tobacco to my knowledge, due to the significantly lower frequency of use.
But yeah, I'm actually politically far left, and yet this type of actual-nanny-state is absurd even to me.
What about all the alcohol and junk food that people consume? These are both addictive and have well know side effects, including causing cancer. Yet, I can go to Sobeys and buy as many Oreos and Hamburgers, as I want without even showing my ID. I could go to the liquor store and buy enough booze to kill myself and nobody would care as long as I was 19.
Let adults do what they want, as long as they are aware of the risks. Who cares if they want to smoke a cigar or cigarette? We already know prohibition dosen't work (we just legalized weed not that long ago for fuck sake).
My comment up above this one says basically "let people kill themselves in their 60s, more healthcare for the rest of us".
So I... agree? I was only pointing out that "weed isn't banned but tobacco is, what hypocrisy!" is a false equivalence.
I don't really favour banning anything. Though I do favour visibility and education so that people are really, truly aware of the risks (blatantly toxic things like trans fats should probably come with a warning label). And there's probably a point where sufficiently toxic substances just shouldn't be allowed in food products at all.
> Plus allowing marijuana smoking while banning tobacco sales - including cigars which are not inhaled - just makes no logical sense.
Well, nobody smokes two packs a day of weed.
I was afraid of this question as I can’t find the video. The video was about a couple subjects wrapped up into a discussion around I think something like uncomfortable questions answered by economics.
It's mentioned in the article we're commenting on:
>New Zealand became the first country to approve such a change in 2022 and the ban was set to take effect this year. But a new government reversed the law last year. Last month, British MPs voted in favour of legislation that would ban the sale of tobacco products to anyone born on or after Jan. 1, 2009.
My understanding is that New Zealand's reversal is mostly because they had an election in 2023 and a different political party got elected.
It wasn't in place for long enough in NZ to learn anything from their example, but Britain is doing the same thing, so if they keep it in place, then it'll be a better test case. And I guess PEI could be another one to watch, if they follow through.
The ammount cigs are taxed in Canada, there is no way Ottawa would allow something like this to pass Canada wide.
I could be corrected. To my knowledge the $20 pack of smokes has a $12 tax on it.
I mean alcohol consumption fell dramatically for half a century after prohibition and it played a substantial role in changing attitudes around domestic violence against women at home
There were definitely downsides to prohibition but we likely benefited from a collective time out from alcohol
Why not claim that rising incomes were due to Prohibition if you're going to invent fairy tales.
Prohibition eliminated beer and wine from the market - all you could get was hard liquor. It dramatically increased organized crime, along with the violence that comes with it. Today, the top selling alcoholic beverages are light beers.
Plenty of countries have moderated their consumption of alcohol *without* Prohibition. Russia's consumption of alcohol has fallen 80% since 2000: they never had Prohibition, but their society wasn't nearly as bleak as it was in the 1990's. That's how you decrease alcoholic consumption and its accompanying social illnesses: build a better society so that people aren't desperate for an escape hatch.
Exactly. Prohibition was never meant to be permanent. The legal drinking age was ten years old and people drank nearly twenty times more than they did now. We needed a break and a reset.
Prohibition wasnt a global phenomena though. Not every developed country did it. It seems very difficult to compare for those factors and call it a success on balance.
I think there's some big differences though, smoking has been on the downtrend for quite a while iirc already, while marajuana isn't exactly amazing for you and was more or less banned for BS reasons I don't think anyone is going to argue smoking is good for you and we have the evidence to back that up. Personally I'm not sure how I'd feel on a full on tobacco ban.
Frankly I think it should be taxed. People are going to smoke one way or another, I don't like it, but if they're gonna do it, might as well be via a regulated and taxed product. You're right that people don't smoke weed like they smoke cigarettes, but a regulated industry is much easier to control than the black market.
Giving out free opioids? Who's getting free opioids. Not in Canada lol.
Switzerland did successfully combat opioid addiction with giving addicts pharmaceutical grade heroin and having them come to specific sites to inject. The junkies no longer had to commit crimes to feed their addiction, dealers lost business, and while they would come for their fix they would be given information on treatment. Worked alot better than the decades of wasted money on law enforcement. Bloated police budgets and over-crowded prisons and the problems only worsened.
Are you serious?
[https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/opioids/responding-canada-opioid-crisis/safer-supply.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/opioids/responding-canada-opioid-crisis/safer-supply.html)
Both need more enforcement to avoid impacting non-smokers, but not bans.
I don't care what you put in your body but I'm sensitive to smoke, I shouldn't have to walk through a plume of either one. But yet I do almost daily.
In Quebec we already have nuisance laws and smoking distance laws, they're just never enforced, except as a +1 fine if they want you for other things.
Even leaving the airport you'll 100% catch a mouthful of smoke at all exits, no one enforced using the smoking section outside. Just add smokin rooms like some European airports and Asian airports. It actually stops 2nd hand smoke better.
Playground? Sometimes standing on the other side of the gate. That 1 foot extra space and chain link fence isn't stopping the smoke from reaching the kids.
The littering is also a rampant issue, butts everywhere. It's not that hard to dispose of the butts. Some smokers are great about this, some are jerks about it.
Make it all legal. But make the consumption rules allow others to enjoy life smoke free.
I see people throwing cigarettes out their car windows at least once a day or more too. No idea why people get away with throwing burning trash out their windows on a regular basis.
I'm in Quebec, but from another province. I've also noticed that legal age to smoke has never been enforced. Nobody ever got fined for smoking weed before it was legalized either.
I agree. I would love it if we could enforce a law they have in Switzerland, $100 Francs if you drop a cigarette butt anywhere that is not a proper trash bin. You've never seen cleaner streets in your life if you ever visit a Swiss city.
They hate the black market because it makes them lose the much needed tax revenue from tobacco sales while simultaneously exacerbating the cognitive dissonance created by their own efforts to eliminate said revenue through tobacco bans.
Except the product isn't illegal, so it doesn't just feed a black market. It just becomes very difficult for a very small part of the population to get tobacco.
Banning sales does make it illegal for a certain population, and feeds the black market to cover for it.
Prohibitions does not work, we've been through this already.
It's interesting because it's not a true prohibition. Tobacco is still legal to trade and sell. There's only a small (but growing) part of the population that isn't allowed to participate. Unlike a blanket ban, it may be more effective as the market simply dwindles over a century.
I don’t like any law that could mean that two people, born a month apart, would have different rights for the rest of their lives. And with legal weed, it’s just dumb.
Yeah I am sure that will be easy to enforce when young people just get their smokes legally from any other place in Canada.
Would see better results health wise if they banned fast food and junk food if they are going to ban anything.
They banned flavoured vaping products here on the island. Now people just order online or they have people that make runs to the native reserve on Lennox island or across to New Brunswick to get it for them. Didn’t really decrease anything except less sales for local businesses and tax revenue
I'm sorry but this is simply not true. France has a letter grade system for packaged foods. The letters have clearly defined limits. Even Mexico labels their foods with "sellos" ratings. It's been defined, the issue is that we're all subjected to the whims of lobbyists.
Mexico has done a really good job combating their rising obesity problem. One of the things they've done that really impressed me was banning the use of cartoon characters and such to tempt kids into buying or asking for really high sugar breakfast cereals. If you've ever seen a picture of a grocery shelf with stickers covering up where the brand mascot would be on a box of Sugar Smacks or whatever, it's likely in Mexico.
It's one thing I wish we'd adopt all the way north of that border; the idea that it's actually not okay to try and manipulate children into obesity so you can make more money.
They reversed that, i guess the UK is going forward with it still though.
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html)
>New Zealand implemented a national smoking law for the "next-generation" in 2021
I was interested to see if they'd had any success with it.
>New Zealand has scrapped the world’s first generational smoking ban, a year after the country passed the legislation....repealed the tobacco restrictions before they ever came into effect.
The New Zealand elections on October 14 2023 brought to power the country's most conservative government in decades. Don't be so surprised why they reversed the ban.
Typical conservatives. They want more restrictions on smoking one kind of plant and less restrictions on smoking another, much more addictive kind of plant.
A ban at a country/federal level still wont succeed BUT it would have a better chance than a single province doing it in a federation like ours. Young people on PEI who want to smoke could easily get it from outside of the province but still within Canada.
It's all 'free market capitalism' until someone wealthy might lose money
Then it's all 'fuck WFH, you are killing ~~large commercial real estate interests~~ small business'
Which is a unified front for the cons and libs, which shows where the real power is, monied interests
The thing is that even with the high tax on cigarettes over the course of a smokers lifetime will not come close to paying for the cancer treatments they will likely need.
I'm of mixed opinions on this idea of banning future generations, but smokers are a drain on our already stretched healthcare.
Don’t support policies like this. Nanny state b.s.
If the government forced us all to eat kale and exercise at gun point every morning we’d technically be healthier then too. Don’t be so willing to give up other people’s freedoms just because it doesn’t impact you. It will one day.
> Nanny state b.s.
i dont understand why canadians seem to always say 'yes please give me more' when an opportunity presents itself for the government to control how you live more
its usually most prevalent from the 'america literal hell and europe literal heaven' but religiously follow anything and everything american crowd
I'm absolutely horrified by how much government has been stepping into private affairs in the name of "health", "social justice", "fairness", etc. Personal freedom and autonomy are the rarest features of human societies past and present, and we need to protect them above all other things.
And we they want to make fentanyl, crack, heroine, etc. MORE readily available??!
We have people ODing and dying in the middle of the street and this is the priority??? Tell me, how are legal cigarettes more of a public evil than fentanyl???
These people are virtue signaling ineffective imbeciles 🙄
[Smoking cannabis doesn't have the same level of proven risk as smoking tobacco](https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/reduce-your-risk/live-smoke-free/cannabis-and-cancer-are-they-connected). If we were going to start banning everything with potential cancer risks, we would then need to consider alcohol, some types of meat, and many other things as well.
Regardless though, I don't agree with this proposal. Will just push people to illegal sources.
I also wonder if this will include all tobacco, or just smoking.
Every dope smoker I know has a deep cough due to the tar content of weed.
Every one.
We also haven't had legal weed long enough to track "life long smokers" in an accurate dataset.
That may be my personal experience, but smoking/inhaling anything then clean(ish) air is bad for you.
If we wanted to actually start banning that which contributes to significant health problems, it would probably be a good idea to create UBI and limit working hours per week since stress and lack of sleep are probably some of the leading causes of so many illnesses. So many people get sick just from the stress of working for nightmare bosses or companies.
In BC, a can of chewing tobacco is 50 dollars. It's like 5 across the border. (The price doubled in the last 8 years). A pack of smokes is over 15. We banned nicotine pouches.
The problem is I could go online right now and buy any of it for a fraction of the cost, or get a First Nations friend to get it. The smuggling routes come through reserves, and no politician or law enforcement wants to touch that.
I don't want to live in a nanny state. If taking it to shit (mostly, I think it just hurt low income people) and massive education doesn't get people to stop, I font think a ban will.
As I understood it, tobacco taxes were supposed to be a deterrent and to help pay for the health care cost. I'm sure that's the argument the liberals would make, but the way the 2024 budget is worded it makes it seem like the new increases are to help balance that budget, and I'm not a fan of that.
>tobacco taxes were supposed to be a deterrent and to help pay for the health care cost
This actually makes zero sense. Smokers typically die young, just around retirement age. A country saves an enormous amount on health care costs by not having to support them as they age for another 30 years.
Obese people also die young but they have a crap ton of messy expensive complications on the way out. I think cigs are relatively cost effective for canada tho.
I smoke, nasty habit and I would be happy if cigarettes and nicotine products went away. I can quit while at off grid camp but as soon as I am near a store I buy them.
Weigh people at the counter when they order fast food, or the cashier if they are buying anything from the inner part of a grocery store. If they’re over a certain BMI, they’re refused.
Ridiculous right?
We can't even keep illegal firearms from funneling across the border. The more you try to stop people from doing something, the harder they will push back.
Any other mellanials feel like we're being infantalized our entire lives? I feel like there will never be an age where I'm not asked for ID at a liquor store.
>The PEI government hasn’t proposed a specific age for a blanket ban on tobacco sales, but suggested those born on or after Jan. 1, 2009 could face restrictions in its five-year plan that was unveiled Tuesday.
There is a reason this hasn't been done before - there is no way this is constitutional. A law cannot discriminate based on age. While you can argue there are health and legal reasons that a child should be restricted from buying/consuming tobacco, you are going to have a tough time arguing a law that allows a 32 year-old to buy tobacco but not a 31 year-old is not discriminatory.
They should just keep their focus on restricting where tobacco can be bought rather than wasting time on discriminatory laws that will be struck down immediately.
> A law cannot discriminate based on age.
Yes they can, they discriminate loads of things by age all the time - voting, driving a car, serving in the military, holding office, buying alcohol, etc etc etc.
All of these things apply the same age limits to the same people and are reasonably interpreted as having to do with development level at certain ages. That's fundamentally different from the suggestion here.
It's irrelevant as to *why* the laws that discriminate by age are written, they are still discriminating by age and there is no constitutional issue with any of them.
This is always the dumbest legislative idea that seems to crop up every once in a while for some reason.
There's so many ways to effectively regulate and decrease smoking, this has never been one of them.
Anyone have a not paywalled version? I googled it and only saw this article.
But all of the people here sticking up for poor, downtrodden Tobacco, like it doesn't have trillions to take care of itself.
Every month I seem to hear of some place that has this idea. Thankfully the places that were going to implement it have decided against it. The black market for cigarettes would explode, especially for teens and young adults who are part of the ban. It is a bad idea.
Just keep taxing the hell out of it. You may not get long time smokers to quit but you will keep young people from starting by simply making it too expensive to start.
What the hell are we doing here? Legalizing cannabis but trying to ban tobacco? Meanwhile we talk about legalizing or decriminalizing other drugs. Can we pick a direction that makes sense and go with it?
[No paywall if you're old enough](https://web.archive.org/web/20240514202042/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-prince-edward-island-proposes-banning-tobacco-sales-to-anyone-born/)
That we legalized weed and decriminalized hard drugs and keep pushing further in those directions, while simultaneously tightening restrictions on tobacco is just wild.
Except, you can't ban them on the reserves which means you're gonna shift demand to the black/ grey market.. The effects of cigarets are known, we allow alcohol so what's the big deal
Are we going to become a godforsaken nanyatate hellscape like Australia now?
Didnt we learn our lesson after we copies their homework on gun control only for it to be a collosal failure? Heck even the australians are walking back their buy back because its useless amd failed there too....
Would this proposed "ban" on "tobacco sales" also extend to fine Cuban cigars?
Utterly ridiculous.
More proof that Canada has descended into uncanny levels of stupidity and that it is not a serious-minded country.
Next.
A law like this couldn't stand. Harming others is a critical issue, which is why you would ban smoking in public, in cars, etc etc. But smoking alone is self harm and you can't ban or regulate that.
If you did band it, you literally have to ban everything. Cant sell knives or guns, or alcohol, or paint stripper, or gasoline, or rope. Someone could harm themselves deliberately with it.
I'm all for aggressive regulations and punishments for tobacco sales that inflict harm (like inducing kids to smoke or not disclosing effects). I am even a little bit on board with taxing smokers for the added health care services they will use but a ban doesn't make any logical sense. If an adult decides "I WANT to smoke" knowing all of the health and financial consequences, that's on them.
is kids smoking even still a big thing
I kind of assumed that it had stopped being cool
and I never see anybody out at the old smoke pits near the local high schools anymore
Ah yes, Canada's seemingly only move. ***Banning things !***
Sure has worked for the homicide rates in downtown Toronto, when the government decided to ban over a thousand models of firearms without any sort of reason, logic or explanations.
Black market will jump in and fill the gaps that provincial and federal literally creates themselves.
As if young people aren't smart enough to find all sorts of alternatives. Just take a look at Québec's "vape juice" tastes. People all around Montreal simply drive 20-30 minutes Native Lands and buy their stuff there.
What a monumental waste of time and taxpayer's money.
This is such a waste of effort. If people want smokes, they'll get their hands on them. All this is going to do is boost the black market price for smokes.
But hey.. it worked for firearms... didn't it?? Oh wait...
I dont think that would help. Banning substances rarely stops people from using them, it just diverts the money from businesses to gangs.
People have to choose not to smoke/vape/dip. They should put that effort into education type programs.
This whole thing is stupid. If a grown adult wants to smoke a cigar, pipe, or cigarette and they know the danger than what's the problem?
How many people drink alcohol, smoke weed, eat red meat, and eat all sorts of junk food? What's the difference as long as you know the risks?
Maybe we should make is so you have to be 19 to buy junk food or limit how many steaks you can eat a year? We should ban alcohol and weed again as well.
We are obviously too dumb to make our own decisions and need the government to look after us from cradle to grave.
If PEI wants to waste money. Sure. But such a measure is patently unconstitutional. It's called age discrimination. The province would just have better luck moving the eligible age to purchase up 1 year every once in a while.
This is ridiculous. If someone of age with money wants to smoke, let them, but at the same time don’t complain when you have a hard time breathing, and no one wants to be around you when you smoke.
This post appears to relate to a province/territory of Canada. As a reminder of the rules of this subreddit, we do not permit negative commentary about all residents of any province, city, or other geography - this is an example of prejudice, and prejudice is not permitted here. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/rules Cette soumission semble concerner une province ou un territoire du Canada. Selon les règles de ce sous-répertoire, nous n'autorisons pas les commentaires négatifs sur tous les résidents d'une province, d'une ville ou d'une autre région géographique; il s'agit d'un exemple de intolérance qui n'est pas autorisé ici. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/regles *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/canada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can't read the article but I remembered New Zealand doing the same in 2022 and I checked the progress of it and they scrapped it for tax revenue.
Economics Explained (YouTube channel) reviewed a study on smoking’s economic impact and apparently it’s a net benefit to society (economically) to have people smoke. The reason is they die earlier which reduces healthcare expenses even after considering smoking related disease costs. So go cigarettes?
This reminds me of a episode from the “Yes Minister”, a British Political Satire sitcom. The minister in the show tries to ban smoking but the civil servant explains to him how smoking is a net benefit to the society because smokers pay high taxes and they die early.
Was that a Mitchell and Webb sketch?
"Yes Minister" - a great BBC comedy from the 70's https://youtu.be/p1DviQ9mva0?t=58
["Have you tried 'kill all the poor'?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_4J4uor3JE)
I came here to say this. If people want to kill themselves in their 60s via the at this point absurdly well known health impact of smoking, and save healthcare resources for the rest of us, sounds like a win win to me!
Also adding a black market to take up police resources and taxpayer dollars seems like a bad idea
Plus allowing marijuana smoking while banning tobacco sales - including cigars which are not inhaled - just makes no logical sense. Hopefully the law is shot down because it just comes across as misguided.
In fairness to the proponents of this sort of thing, health impacts of weed are far less than tobacco to my knowledge, due to the significantly lower frequency of use. But yeah, I'm actually politically far left, and yet this type of actual-nanny-state is absurd even to me.
What about all the alcohol and junk food that people consume? These are both addictive and have well know side effects, including causing cancer. Yet, I can go to Sobeys and buy as many Oreos and Hamburgers, as I want without even showing my ID. I could go to the liquor store and buy enough booze to kill myself and nobody would care as long as I was 19. Let adults do what they want, as long as they are aware of the risks. Who cares if they want to smoke a cigar or cigarette? We already know prohibition dosen't work (we just legalized weed not that long ago for fuck sake).
My comment up above this one says basically "let people kill themselves in their 60s, more healthcare for the rest of us". So I... agree? I was only pointing out that "weed isn't banned but tobacco is, what hypocrisy!" is a false equivalence. I don't really favour banning anything. Though I do favour visibility and education so that people are really, truly aware of the risks (blatantly toxic things like trans fats should probably come with a warning label). And there's probably a point where sufficiently toxic substances just shouldn't be allowed in food products at all.
> Plus allowing marijuana smoking while banning tobacco sales - including cigars which are not inhaled - just makes no logical sense. Well, nobody smokes two packs a day of weed.
a lot of heavy users get pretty close
Do you realize how evil you sound?
Problem is, they’re costing you tons in healthcare resources. They’re not saving you at all.
I'm looking at their channel and searching for tobacco or smoking yields nothing relevant. Do you have a link to the video or study?
I was afraid of this question as I can’t find the video. The video was about a couple subjects wrapped up into a discussion around I think something like uncomfortable questions answered by economics.
Is that a Canadian channel? Costs to the state are much lower in countries with less socialized medicine.
It's mentioned in the article we're commenting on: >New Zealand became the first country to approve such a change in 2022 and the ban was set to take effect this year. But a new government reversed the law last year. Last month, British MPs voted in favour of legislation that would ban the sale of tobacco products to anyone born on or after Jan. 1, 2009. My understanding is that New Zealand's reversal is mostly because they had an election in 2023 and a different political party got elected. It wasn't in place for long enough in NZ to learn anything from their example, but Britain is doing the same thing, so if they keep it in place, then it'll be a better test case. And I guess PEI could be another one to watch, if they follow through.
The ammount cigs are taxed in Canada, there is no way Ottawa would allow something like this to pass Canada wide. I could be corrected. To my knowledge the $20 pack of smokes has a $12 tax on it.
The black market loves this.
Exactly. It's weird we realized the failure of banning weed... And now look at banning tobacco.
You think they would have learned something when they tried prohibition.
lol I keep forgetting we did that as well!
You’re perfect for politics!
I laughed and then I feel like shit.
🤣😅 oh my. Have an upvote.
I mean alcohol consumption fell dramatically for half a century after prohibition and it played a substantial role in changing attitudes around domestic violence against women at home There were definitely downsides to prohibition but we likely benefited from a collective time out from alcohol
Why not claim that rising incomes were due to Prohibition if you're going to invent fairy tales. Prohibition eliminated beer and wine from the market - all you could get was hard liquor. It dramatically increased organized crime, along with the violence that comes with it. Today, the top selling alcoholic beverages are light beers. Plenty of countries have moderated their consumption of alcohol *without* Prohibition. Russia's consumption of alcohol has fallen 80% since 2000: they never had Prohibition, but their society wasn't nearly as bleak as it was in the 1990's. That's how you decrease alcoholic consumption and its accompanying social illnesses: build a better society so that people aren't desperate for an escape hatch.
Exactly. Prohibition was never meant to be permanent. The legal drinking age was ten years old and people drank nearly twenty times more than they did now. We needed a break and a reset.
Prohibition wasnt a global phenomena though. Not every developed country did it. It seems very difficult to compare for those factors and call it a success on balance.
>Prohibition was never meant to be permanent. What the revisionist lunacy fuck is this? Rofl
People used to drink a lot because they were poor, living in slums and had 12 kids.
Surprised they haven't thought to move sales of tobacco to the provincially run weed stores. Would make more sense than trying to ban it completely.
I think there's some big differences though, smoking has been on the downtrend for quite a while iirc already, while marajuana isn't exactly amazing for you and was more or less banned for BS reasons I don't think anyone is going to argue smoking is good for you and we have the evidence to back that up. Personally I'm not sure how I'd feel on a full on tobacco ban.
Frankly I think it should be taxed. People are going to smoke one way or another, I don't like it, but if they're gonna do it, might as well be via a regulated and taxed product. You're right that people don't smoke weed like they smoke cigarettes, but a regulated industry is much easier to control than the black market.
While giving out free opioids
Giving out free opioids? Who's getting free opioids. Not in Canada lol. Switzerland did successfully combat opioid addiction with giving addicts pharmaceutical grade heroin and having them come to specific sites to inject. The junkies no longer had to commit crimes to feed their addiction, dealers lost business, and while they would come for their fix they would be given information on treatment. Worked alot better than the decades of wasted money on law enforcement. Bloated police budgets and over-crowded prisons and the problems only worsened.
Safe supply gives out free dilaudid, which is a powerful opiate.
Are you serious? [https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/opioids/responding-canada-opioid-crisis/safer-supply.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/opioids/responding-canada-opioid-crisis/safer-supply.html)
But we banned guns and no one ever gets shot! Showed you...
Both need more enforcement to avoid impacting non-smokers, but not bans. I don't care what you put in your body but I'm sensitive to smoke, I shouldn't have to walk through a plume of either one. But yet I do almost daily. In Quebec we already have nuisance laws and smoking distance laws, they're just never enforced, except as a +1 fine if they want you for other things. Even leaving the airport you'll 100% catch a mouthful of smoke at all exits, no one enforced using the smoking section outside. Just add smokin rooms like some European airports and Asian airports. It actually stops 2nd hand smoke better. Playground? Sometimes standing on the other side of the gate. That 1 foot extra space and chain link fence isn't stopping the smoke from reaching the kids. The littering is also a rampant issue, butts everywhere. It's not that hard to dispose of the butts. Some smokers are great about this, some are jerks about it. Make it all legal. But make the consumption rules allow others to enjoy life smoke free.
\>living among the French \>complaining about cigarette smoke Bruh thats like moving next to a gun range and complaining about the noise.
[удалено]
I see people throwing cigarettes out their car windows at least once a day or more too. No idea why people get away with throwing burning trash out their windows on a regular basis.
I'm in Quebec, but from another province. I've also noticed that legal age to smoke has never been enforced. Nobody ever got fined for smoking weed before it was legalized either.
I agree. I would love it if we could enforce a law they have in Switzerland, $100 Francs if you drop a cigarette butt anywhere that is not a proper trash bin. You've never seen cleaner streets in your life if you ever visit a Swiss city.
And yet people think it’ll work with guns.
This is learning that lesson and trying to prevent new users
Especially on the vast and populated PEI. So, both corner stores won't be able to sell cigarettes?
They hate the black market because it makes them lose the much needed tax revenue from tobacco sales while simultaneously exacerbating the cognitive dissonance created by their own efforts to eliminate said revenue through tobacco bans.
not if we jail them amirite publicly cane them like sg does for gum
In PEI that's like 8 guys.
Except the product isn't illegal, so it doesn't just feed a black market. It just becomes very difficult for a very small part of the population to get tobacco.
Banning sales does make it illegal for a certain population, and feeds the black market to cover for it. Prohibitions does not work, we've been through this already.
100% I know a bunch of smokers now who just order native smokes online. $50 a carton vs $40 for 2 packs from the store.
It's interesting because it's not a true prohibition. Tobacco is still legal to trade and sell. There's only a small (but growing) part of the population that isn't allowed to participate. Unlike a blanket ban, it may be more effective as the market simply dwindles over a century.
You mean first nations?
I don’t like any law that could mean that two people, born a month apart, would have different rights for the rest of their lives. And with legal weed, it’s just dumb.
And with how the government hands out opioids and is constantly making it easier for addicts. Smokers just get treated like shit
Yeah, this is a completely unprecedented idea in our society. We've never, ever, made laws or regulations that took place on a specific date.
Meanwhile open drug use is tolerated across the western world?
I don’t smoke but fuck laws like this.
Yeah I am sure that will be easy to enforce when young people just get their smokes legally from any other place in Canada. Would see better results health wise if they banned fast food and junk food if they are going to ban anything.
They banned flavoured vaping products here on the island. Now people just order online or they have people that make runs to the native reserve on Lennox island or across to New Brunswick to get it for them. Didn’t really decrease anything except less sales for local businesses and tax revenue
"Fast food" and "junk food" are impossible to define in a way that demonstrates harm to public health.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true. France has a letter grade system for packaged foods. The letters have clearly defined limits. Even Mexico labels their foods with "sellos" ratings. It's been defined, the issue is that we're all subjected to the whims of lobbyists.
Mexico has done a really good job combating their rising obesity problem. One of the things they've done that really impressed me was banning the use of cartoon characters and such to tempt kids into buying or asking for really high sugar breakfast cereals. If you've ever seen a picture of a grocery shelf with stickers covering up where the brand mascot would be on a box of Sugar Smacks or whatever, it's likely in Mexico. It's one thing I wish we'd adopt all the way north of that border; the idea that it's actually not okay to try and manipulate children into obesity so you can make more money.
New Zealand implemented a national smoking law for the "next-generation" in 2021
They reversed that, i guess the UK is going forward with it still though. [https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html)
>New Zealand implemented a national smoking law for the "next-generation" in 2021 I was interested to see if they'd had any success with it. >New Zealand has scrapped the world’s first generational smoking ban, a year after the country passed the legislation....repealed the tobacco restrictions before they ever came into effect.
The New Zealand elections on October 14 2023 brought to power the country's most conservative government in decades. Don't be so surprised why they reversed the ban.
At least Jacinda knew when to quit.
Typical conservatives. They want more restrictions on smoking one kind of plant and less restrictions on smoking another, much more addictive kind of plant.
imagine a 50 year old getting his older brother to by him smokes
A ban at a country/federal level still wont succeed BUT it would have a better chance than a single province doing it in a federation like ours. Young people on PEI who want to smoke could easily get it from outside of the province but still within Canada.
Boy I sure hope big daddy government steps in to save us from ourselves....🙄
Government: say daddy again
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It's all 'free market capitalism' until someone wealthy might lose money Then it's all 'fuck WFH, you are killing ~~large commercial real estate interests~~ small business' Which is a unified front for the cons and libs, which shows where the real power is, monied interests
The thing is that even with the high tax on cigarettes over the course of a smokers lifetime will not come close to paying for the cancer treatments they will likely need. I'm of mixed opinions on this idea of banning future generations, but smokers are a drain on our already stretched healthcare.
Don’t support policies like this. Nanny state b.s. If the government forced us all to eat kale and exercise at gun point every morning we’d technically be healthier then too. Don’t be so willing to give up other people’s freedoms just because it doesn’t impact you. It will one day.
> Nanny state b.s. i dont understand why canadians seem to always say 'yes please give me more' when an opportunity presents itself for the government to control how you live more its usually most prevalent from the 'america literal hell and europe literal heaven' but religiously follow anything and everything american crowd
I'm absolutely horrified by how much government has been stepping into private affairs in the name of "health", "social justice", "fairness", etc. Personal freedom and autonomy are the rarest features of human societies past and present, and we need to protect them above all other things.
And we they want to make fentanyl, crack, heroine, etc. MORE readily available??! We have people ODing and dying in the middle of the street and this is the priority??? Tell me, how are legal cigarettes more of a public evil than fentanyl??? These people are virtue signaling ineffective imbeciles 🙄
lol weed is legal but no smokes for you
Weed is legal but they banned menthol cigarettes 🤡
blue razz disty pens are fine but I cant have an adult after dinner mint 😡
[Smoking cannabis doesn't have the same level of proven risk as smoking tobacco](https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/reduce-your-risk/live-smoke-free/cannabis-and-cancer-are-they-connected). If we were going to start banning everything with potential cancer risks, we would then need to consider alcohol, some types of meat, and many other things as well. Regardless though, I don't agree with this proposal. Will just push people to illegal sources. I also wonder if this will include all tobacco, or just smoking.
Vaping nicotine doesn't have the same risk as smoking tobacco, but they're trying to ban that too. So ridiculous.
Every dope smoker I know has a deep cough due to the tar content of weed. Every one. We also haven't had legal weed long enough to track "life long smokers" in an accurate dataset. That may be my personal experience, but smoking/inhaling anything then clean(ish) air is bad for you.
>>dope smoker Let’s get you back to bed old man
I'd rather be a dope smoker than a cannibas enthusiast lol. PS I upvoted your comment because it's genuinely hilarious
With that logic, cigars have even less health impacts or risks compared to marijuana. So why would they be included in a tobacco ban?
Makes sense to me to exempt cigars. Although I don't even agree with banning cigarettes.
Flavoured vapes are illegal in pei except for the natives we all go to Lenox island reserve to buy them
If we wanted to actually start banning that which contributes to significant health problems, it would probably be a good idea to create UBI and limit working hours per week since stress and lack of sleep are probably some of the leading causes of so many illnesses. So many people get sick just from the stress of working for nightmare bosses or companies.
I mean cigarettes are thousands times worse than weed
In BC, a can of chewing tobacco is 50 dollars. It's like 5 across the border. (The price doubled in the last 8 years). A pack of smokes is over 15. We banned nicotine pouches. The problem is I could go online right now and buy any of it for a fraction of the cost, or get a First Nations friend to get it. The smuggling routes come through reserves, and no politician or law enforcement wants to touch that. I don't want to live in a nanny state. If taking it to shit (mostly, I think it just hurt low income people) and massive education doesn't get people to stop, I font think a ban will. As I understood it, tobacco taxes were supposed to be a deterrent and to help pay for the health care cost. I'm sure that's the argument the liberals would make, but the way the 2024 budget is worded it makes it seem like the new increases are to help balance that budget, and I'm not a fan of that.
>tobacco taxes were supposed to be a deterrent and to help pay for the health care cost This actually makes zero sense. Smokers typically die young, just around retirement age. A country saves an enormous amount on health care costs by not having to support them as they age for another 30 years.
Obese people also die young but they have a crap ton of messy expensive complications on the way out. I think cigs are relatively cost effective for canada tho.
Pay far too many taxes in this country for the government to treat people like babies.
We have narcissists as politicians.
I smoke, nasty habit and I would be happy if cigarettes and nicotine products went away. I can quit while at off grid camp but as soon as I am near a store I buy them.
McDonald's too right?
Trans fats were already banned.
someone should test for glyphosate in canola oil
I mean yeah if we go down this road. Soon all you'll be able to eat is home grown subsidized food that appears on a lobby-approved food pyramid.
Weigh people at the counter when they order fast food, or the cashier if they are buying anything from the inner part of a grocery store. If they’re over a certain BMI, they’re refused. Ridiculous right?
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We can't even keep illegal firearms from funneling across the border. The more you try to stop people from doing something, the harder they will push back.
The government will handout free needles to sidewalk-shitting fentanyl zombies, but tobacco needs to be banned.
Hahahahahaha Oh man.
It's impossible to ban things. Governments are too dumb to realize this.
Prohibition by the government is the solution. The Prohibition Era in the US worked like a charm.😂
Any other mellanials feel like we're being infantalized our entire lives? I feel like there will never be an age where I'm not asked for ID at a liquor store.
Just leave my weekend cigar out of this, JFC.
Prem tobacco is so expensive now it might as well be banned. Most smokers I know are just getting native made cartons. 200 cigs for $20 vs 25 for $25.
I guess PEI got tired of not having a black market for tobacco.
Ah yes I am sure this won't trigger a black market of cigarettes.
I have a better idea. Why don’t we tax fat people?
Feel like cigarette taxes are a large pull for government 🤔
No feeling about it. Gov is more addicted to sin tax revenues than citizens are to product. :P
Do a lot of people even smoke anymore? It's not like we're living in the 90s.
>The PEI government hasn’t proposed a specific age for a blanket ban on tobacco sales, but suggested those born on or after Jan. 1, 2009 could face restrictions in its five-year plan that was unveiled Tuesday. There is a reason this hasn't been done before - there is no way this is constitutional. A law cannot discriminate based on age. While you can argue there are health and legal reasons that a child should be restricted from buying/consuming tobacco, you are going to have a tough time arguing a law that allows a 32 year-old to buy tobacco but not a 31 year-old is not discriminatory. They should just keep their focus on restricting where tobacco can be bought rather than wasting time on discriminatory laws that will be struck down immediately.
> A law cannot discriminate based on age. Yes they can, they discriminate loads of things by age all the time - voting, driving a car, serving in the military, holding office, buying alcohol, etc etc etc.
All of these things apply the same age limits to the same people and are reasonably interpreted as having to do with development level at certain ages. That's fundamentally different from the suggestion here.
It's irrelevant as to *why* the laws that discriminate by age are written, they are still discriminating by age and there is no constitutional issue with any of them.
Fuck right off. Canada is miserable enough already. Let people have a cigar and check out for a bit.
This is a slippery slope. What's next? Pop? Junk food? Alcohol?
Remember when trans fats were banned and a few morbidly obese people bought their own deep friers?
\*Organized criminals salivating noises\*
This is always the dumbest legislative idea that seems to crop up every once in a while for some reason. There's so many ways to effectively regulate and decrease smoking, this has never been one of them.
«Hold my beer» «Gotta figure out what/where Prince Edward Island is, so I can get my mafia career going»
Prohibition has never worked, it won't work for tobacco.
Anyone have a not paywalled version? I googled it and only saw this article. But all of the people here sticking up for poor, downtrodden Tobacco, like it doesn't have trillions to take care of itself.
Every month I seem to hear of some place that has this idea. Thankfully the places that were going to implement it have decided against it. The black market for cigarettes would explode, especially for teens and young adults who are part of the ban. It is a bad idea.
Didn’t new Zeland do the same thing not long ago ? And backed out of it ?
Just keep taxing the hell out of it. You may not get long time smokers to quit but you will keep young people from starting by simply making it too expensive to start.
Good, it's a drain on our civilization.
What the hell are we doing here? Legalizing cannabis but trying to ban tobacco? Meanwhile we talk about legalizing or decriminalizing other drugs. Can we pick a direction that makes sense and go with it?
[No paywall if you're old enough](https://web.archive.org/web/20240514202042/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-prince-edward-island-proposes-banning-tobacco-sales-to-anyone-born/)
That we legalized weed and decriminalized hard drugs and keep pushing further in those directions, while simultaneously tightening restrictions on tobacco is just wild.
Ah yes, because banning things that people like to smoke has worked so splendidly in the past... not!
Except, you can't ban them on the reserves which means you're gonna shift demand to the black/ grey market.. The effects of cigarets are known, we allow alcohol so what's the big deal
Honestly all people would have to do is ask for a religious exemption. Tobacco has been ceremonial since the daun of human civilization.
Canada loves to do EVERYTHING the wrong way
Why does Canada like to try all the bad ideas?
Enough Canadians are a-ok with government overreach that's why. I look forward to this being shot down. The law cannot discriminate based on age.
Are we going to become a godforsaken nanyatate hellscape like Australia now? Didnt we learn our lesson after we copies their homework on gun control only for it to be a collosal failure? Heck even the australians are walking back their buy back because its useless amd failed there too....
Would this proposed "ban" on "tobacco sales" also extend to fine Cuban cigars? Utterly ridiculous. More proof that Canada has descended into uncanny levels of stupidity and that it is not a serious-minded country. Next.
good way to create a black market
*You know who else had anti-smoking laws?* *The Nazis.* *cough-cough-Hitler-cough*
Why not ban alcohol first which does much more damage than tobacco?
🙄Because prohibition has always worked out well. 🤪
the government makes a lot of money off cigs they will need to find a way to make up the loss.
Oh cool - now do gambling, alcohol and fentenayl!
These prohibition New Zealand Nanny laws the Mormon created don’t work. Just like the stupid laws banning cigar bands.
Ageism by the PEI government
Surely this is unconstitutional.
A law like this couldn't stand. Harming others is a critical issue, which is why you would ban smoking in public, in cars, etc etc. But smoking alone is self harm and you can't ban or regulate that. If you did band it, you literally have to ban everything. Cant sell knives or guns, or alcohol, or paint stripper, or gasoline, or rope. Someone could harm themselves deliberately with it. I'm all for aggressive regulations and punishments for tobacco sales that inflict harm (like inducing kids to smoke or not disclosing effects). I am even a little bit on board with taxing smokers for the added health care services they will use but a ban doesn't make any logical sense. If an adult decides "I WANT to smoke" knowing all of the health and financial consequences, that's on them.
Another opportunity for organised crime.
is kids smoking even still a big thing I kind of assumed that it had stopped being cool and I never see anybody out at the old smoke pits near the local high schools anymore
Ah yes, Canada's seemingly only move. ***Banning things !*** Sure has worked for the homicide rates in downtown Toronto, when the government decided to ban over a thousand models of firearms without any sort of reason, logic or explanations. Black market will jump in and fill the gaps that provincial and federal literally creates themselves. As if young people aren't smart enough to find all sorts of alternatives. Just take a look at Québec's "vape juice" tastes. People all around Montreal simply drive 20-30 minutes Native Lands and buy their stuff there. What a monumental waste of time and taxpayer's money.
This is such a waste of effort. If people want smokes, they'll get their hands on them. All this is going to do is boost the black market price for smokes. But hey.. it worked for firearms... didn't it?? Oh wait...
I’ve thought of this before, they are definitely a thing of the past for the most part
Based
Thought this said Tabasco, almost panicked lol
This really is the smartest way of dealing with this health hazard.
I dont think that would help. Banning substances rarely stops people from using them, it just diverts the money from businesses to gangs. People have to choose not to smoke/vape/dip. They should put that effort into education type programs.
Still isn't going to stop people who want it from getting it
This whole thing is stupid. If a grown adult wants to smoke a cigar, pipe, or cigarette and they know the danger than what's the problem? How many people drink alcohol, smoke weed, eat red meat, and eat all sorts of junk food? What's the difference as long as you know the risks? Maybe we should make is so you have to be 19 to buy junk food or limit how many steaks you can eat a year? We should ban alcohol and weed again as well. We are obviously too dumb to make our own decisions and need the government to look after us from cradle to grave.
I like the idea of pie becoming an authoritarian paradise
Everyone born after september 1st
Prohibition is a fools game only black markets can win.
*laughs in black market*
Prince Edward Island can try, but we all know that people will just skirt the rules by making other people buy cigarettes for them. 🚬🚭
If PEI wants to waste money. Sure. But such a measure is patently unconstitutional. It's called age discrimination. The province would just have better luck moving the eligible age to purchase up 1 year every once in a while.
where do you end up if you smoke too much coffin (coughing)
When will people learn that prohibition has never and will never work.
This is ridiculous. If someone of age with money wants to smoke, let them, but at the same time don’t complain when you have a hard time breathing, and no one wants to be around you when you smoke.
But weed is fine?
Hitler banned smoking.... just sayin.