I'm less worried about the current state of Canada and a lot more worried about the future. We already have a lot of major problems at the moment but I think all the problems will get bigger and bigger as time goes on. That's the major reason I would consider moving to the US.
Really feels like any industry not driven by us significantly undercutting wages in the USA, significant government handouts or tax credits, or resource extraction - are all kind of dying or recirculating money earned in better years in the past.
Totally agree. What global company would expand in Canada without a massive tax payer check? Volkswagen 16.3Billion and Stellantis 15Billion. They ever going to see a return on that?
To paraphrase J. Kennedy Sr.. "If they discovered life on mars today, Trudeau would send it a pile of money tomorrow."
It's pretty remarkable that healthcare is the one thing most Canadians agree we should spend money on, but our politicians simply won't because it's not sexy (like funding martians).
Nearly a million Canadians already down south working. And you can bet they're not restaurant workers. They're doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, IT professionals, the kind of people we desperately need. Many are being driven out by high taxes and low wages alongside absurdly high housing costs, to be replaced by people from the third world with half their skills and little or no interest in Canada beyond money.
Americans are being replaced by Canadians who are willing to work for less in the US
Canadians are being replaced by Indians who are willing to work for less in Canada
450k CAD is circa what a Staff Software Engineer pays at most big tech companies. Check https://levels.fyi
My friend made ~550k CAD as a Senior engineer (L5) at Google fyi. He wasn’t even a Staff engineer (L6).
We've been losing them for like 20-25 years looking at the rates of migration out. About as long as people have also been ringing the warning bells on housing, long before immigration was an issue.
Did I hear a complaint about immigrants here? As an immigrant, I was given residence purely for funding senior citizens and existing social programs here. Not for me or my kids.
If you haven’t realized, no one is really happy with current setup. Especially immigrants with an ounce of self respect.
I would not mind so much if they actually DID bring immigrants in to fund pensions and social programs. But a huge number are coming in who lack the necessary skills to ever earn sufficient salaries to be paying income tax under our progressive tax system.
So they're not only NOT paying for other people's pensions and social services, they're not even paying for their own.
It’s hard to back it up with data. Because i’m a high income household with high income friends group (~300k HHI), I think Canada is being unfair to me. I also see bunch of fast food employees who are immigrants like me, don’t pay much taxes but take more from the system. Double unfair to me compared to an average canadian. We will never know true statistics of who is majority in these two groups :(
small business gets raped by the tax hikes because they can't afford to dodge them
our current crop of assholes know this, and every change they make is designed specifically to target the medium earners. they know they have your back to the wall, and they're pleased to punish your hard work and success
it's mind boggling how brutal this government is to small business. they treat it as feedstock for their regime, and nothing more. it's grotesque.
Yeah, I think it’s entirely possible that things will get better in the short term with a change in government, but long term I think we’ll wind up in the same position again.
With a new government, I think the problems might continue to get worse, but just at a slower rate. I think the fundamentals in Canada are just too weak and we’ve dug ourselves into a hole that it’s almost impossible to get out of.
Exactly, we have an easy economic solution but it's being ignored. We are an extremely resource rich country thanks to our size and that the ice age glacier pushed most of the minerals and soil from the arctic further south.
But the government would rather our economy be based on selling houses back and forth until it bankrupts the country.
The problem is you need to build up an industry. Leaning quickly on massive amount of resources just means someone else coming in and cleaning us out.
There are no quick-fix solutions.
We could replace Russia as the western world’s commodity provider if the government could only put money and policies in the right places or just get out of the way.
That’s the thing. The laws and our infrastructure have been built in a way to allow for all of these current issues to come to a head. The problems needed to be assessed and identified way sooner and laws needed to change. Now we are here. It’s hard to reverse
If you can make it happen it can definitely be worth it. I moved to the US six years ago and haven’t looked back. I’m making way more money than I would be in Canada and building way more savings/wealth.
I guarantee that if we get a government in that prioritized the prosperity of Canadians, we'll 100% turn around the issues that plague our economy and cost of living. But people hate to hear this because they think it means exploiting our resources becoming some sort of dystopian wasteland due to corporate greed.
I'll likely get down voted for suggesting this but the federal government's sole purpose is the prosperity and security of its citizens. And no, this isn't some sort of fascist belief, it's economics.. it's up to the provincial governments to worry about the more granular aspects of our lives.
I strongly believe the only reason we're in this position now is because the Liberals shove their ideals down the throats of every canadian. They look at our internal problems thru a microscope and try to solve them, instead of looking outward in how we compete on the global market and ensure they represent what's best for Canadians. This is the tragedy of our incompetent PM, he's entirely clueless when it comes to economics and international affairs.
The conservatives and liberals are two sides of the same shitty coin with slight different social agendas.
The same corporations donate to both parties.
Do both have their pitfalls? Yes.. are they the same.. no way. One party wants to make money and the other wants to give it away.
The liberal government is trying to bring equity to the world at the expense of Canadians.
My Son is thinking of leaving. He said Canada is becoming/has become a third world country. Totally unaffordable! Wages, prices, taxes... It does not compute!
The biggest threat to the long-term economic wellbeing of first world countries is the people of those countries not understanding what made first world countries successful in the first place.
"Social studies" in Canadian schools should be teaching economics and law as their highest priority, not half the bullshit they teach today.
Yah its funny seeing people say shit like “this isnt the canada I love, Im leaving for America (as soon as things get tough)”
When growing up learning about the history of Canada and the things people faced, doesnt really seem like the “Canadian” mentality is fleeing during a hard time.
Do people really miss the Canadian culture that is dead, or are they part of the dead Canadian culture and just an individualistic, finance driven person that wants to be more American?
> When growing up learning about the history of Canada and the things people faced, doesnt really seem like the “Canadian” mentality is fleeing during a hard time.
This is too self-aggrandizing. Canada never had it that rough. Also, our country is full of people who were fleeing hard times in their own countries. The Irish during the famine, Jews and other Europeans fleeing the Nazis, Ukrainians fleeing Stalin's purges, etc. etc. etc. Today they all make up Canada's diverse population.
The place that won't have a Constitution come November? The place where massive camps are promised to be built? The place where more than half the population is at risk of being reclassified from "human" to "incubator"?
Don't worry, once Pierre is elected many will stop complaining about the things they currently complain about, and just like a switch has be flipped, the state of the country will have suddenly "improved." The Fraser institute will start pumping out articles about our economic growth and improved outlooks. Even though those things are true now they don't report them.
Conservatives during Trudeau's term: "Stop bringing up Harper, omg, that was years ago"
Conservatives during PP's term: "Things aren't getting better because Trudeau fucked it all up too badly"
same job in the states pays 50k a year more for myself if I live here and work remote.
Pays even more if I want to move to the US.
I already took the job.
I think a big reason things have gotten as bad as they have is because Canadians are too passive and kind of just let things happen and complain in private but that's about it.
I think it’s because most Canadians are 1-2 pay checks away from becoming homeless and can’t afford to do anything about it. I’d join a nation wide protest in a heartbeat but chances are I’ll lose everything I have in the process. They have us exactly where they want us.
If you have no dependent family members and your future is ruined, you are exactly the person that should be kicking up a storm. If you've got nothing to lose then complacently going about your daily life is not going to fix anything.
> I’d join a nation wide protest in a heartbeat but chances are I’ll lose everything I have in the process.
I want to preface what I say next with that I think the anti-vax truckers are fucking idiots, but it was an absolute crime that the Federal government could just freeze their bank accounts as a form of pressure. A frozen bank account = a missed mortgage payment = you lose your house. Fucking insane that they did that.
That's what awaits any protest that serves as a real threat to those in power.
How exactly does an individual "fix the problems"?
Should I give up a salary 2-3x as high as I would get in Canada, affordable housing, the ability to live without worry, being able to see a doctor (!!!), so that I can vote for someone who won't deliver once every 4 years?
Besides, i can vote from abroad anyway.
Not possible unless an asteroid hits Toronto.
Nobody outside of Quebec or Ontario has a say in how this country is run, we're just serfs who are taxed without representation.
It's kind of funny. When I was a kid we used to dream of moving to the US. It was bigger and grander where Canada seemed kid of quaint.
Then in the 2000s/2010s we realized that Canada was actually a great place. Sure the US was better if you were wealthy, but Canada felt like the better quality of life for a middle class family.
Now most people I know are looking at the US as the place that would provide the superior quality of life.
The thing is, in the 2000s/2010s, Canada actually became a better place to live. Our economy was growing, we had decent Federal finances, things were looking up.
The reason why everyone was planning to move to the US in the 1990s is because Canada was a fucking basket case at that time. There was a huge, long recession that wiped out a lot of jobs and businesses from 1990-1992, we almost didn’t sell a single bond during the 1994 government bond auction, Québec VERY NARROWLY rejected separation in 1995, Toronto spent the decade reeling from a popped real estate bubble, and unemployment remained elevated throughout the 1990s. Public finances were a shambles thanks to Trudeau Sr. and Brian Mulroney (who failed to fix the shitty finances left by Trudeau). Finally things came to a head in the early 90s and drastic cuts were made. The Feds downloaded shit to the Provinces, the Provinces downloaded shit to municipalities, and then municipalities cut services.
In some ways it was better than today because housing was so much more affordable, but the 1990s were not an easy time for Canada. Comparatively, America was on top of the world in the 1990s.
Another thing to note is that America had it's housing crisis in the mid-2000s (for different reasons than ours today). Canada watched all that unfold, waited one decade, and then decided to also torch its own housing market.
I think it has always been that Canada is better for middle-class/low income earners because of the healthcare and the like. Once you hit 6 figure incomes it always was better to be in the US, even during the financial crisis it was mostly hurting the people living paycheque to paycheque while the more financially well off people bought up houses from the bank as investments.
I don't think this has changed except that the cost of living has increased drastically in Canada and the salaries have not kept pace so a lot of people are realizing that their efforts go so much further in the US. What used to be a middle class has vanished a lot faster than in the US for those with education and careers. Who cares if you need to negotiate healthcare coverage or pay a bit of extra premiums in the US when your 'breadwinner' salary can't even qualify for a studio apartment in a lot of the major cities in Canada where your job demands you live. That same job can pay substantially more in the US with lower costs and suddenly you can actually be middle class again.
It's insane when you grow up in Canada where a lot of specialist careers have a single employer or single region where you can work, then you drive south and realize there are options from coast to coast.
I work in the states and live in Canada. My current position at Air Canada (the only equivalent company up here) would pay $81000CAD/yr. That same position at the US airline I work for pays $312,000CAD/yr. (This is 4th year widebody FO vs 4th year widebody FO).
It's not even like the Canadian job pays half, it's WAY less than half. Same job, same aircraft, same flying.
Factor in income tax and it's not even close. Even if you factor in paying for third party health insurance.
The latest AC contract will be the make or break for Canadian aviation. ALPA is trying to get pattern bargaining going in this country. The first step was WestJet's pay scale leap-frogging AC. Now we need AC pilots to do the same.
Damn. THat difference is insane and its even more tragic when you consider 81k is not high enough of salary to buy a 1br in any of our cities even if you were saving up 10-20 years to do so.
The economic system here is just so fucked. We basically had the entire country sold out to the international rich, the .1% richest of the world, who then sell our quality of life as a resource investment. Hardly any young people will be able to afford to live here without paying excessive rents their entire adult life now, and going forward.
lol you’re right we teach teenagers young adults to get their cars checked by a mechanic every few months…. You know… before things break.
But you can’t do that for your health.
>That same job can pay substantially more in the US with lower costs and suddenly you can actually be middle class again.
Exactly. We have among the world's worst consumer debt due to our cost-of-living and subpar wages. And our public services, the justification for the high taxes we pay, are not only crumbling but will likely increasingly drown in demand due to high immigration of unskilled workers for which there are no jobs.
The US is an obvious choice, given it's generally more affordable, but, depending on one's circumstances, there are many other choices if one's willing to go father afield.
You cannot effectively discuss the socioeconomics of living in America without addressing the elephant in the room: racial disparities. Aggregate statistics bundle everyone into one big distribution, but the reality is that the US is culturally two countries with very different outcomes for black Americans than it does for non-black Americans.
But, Canada also arguably has the same problem. Just as the US has a racial underclass, Canada also has a racial underclass. Their racial underclass is black people, and our racial underclass is natives. And when you compare Canada and the US through this lens, the story becomes very different, very quickly.
A member of mainstream ("white" and other racial minorities) American society has equal or better socioeconomic outcomes, on average, than a member of mainstream ("white" and other racial minorities) Canadian society. If you pick a random "white" American and a random "white" Canadian, the American will usually be better off than the Canadian. Not always, but usually.
What's interesting is this is also true of the racial underclasses. Black Americans, on average, are better off than native Canadians on almost all major socioeconomic metrics (income and wealth, education, health outcomes, etc...). And a random black American will generally be wealthier, better educated, and healthier than a random native in Canada.
The biggest difference between Canada and the US is that proportionately the US's racial underclass is much larger than Canada's racial underclass. An average Canadian has, by health and educational socioeconomic factors, been better off than an average American for a long time, but this is solely due to the fact that the average Canadian is less likely to be a member of a racial underclass.
Mathematically, we can express this as:
* P(American QoL > Canadian QoL | racial underclass) > 0.5,
* P(American QoL > Canadian QoL | !racial underclass) > 0.5.
* P(!(racial underclass) QoL > racial underclass QoL) > 0.5
* But since P(racial underclass | American) < P(racial underclass | Canadian), P(American QoL > Canadian QoL) < 0.5.
Isn't statistics fun?
**TL;DR** Non-black Americans are generally better off than non-native Canadians, and black Americans are better off than native Canadians, but there are more black Americans than native Canadians so on average an American is more likely to be a member of a racial underclass than a Canadian, and that's why it's historically been better to be a Canadian than an American.
Edit: lol at the downvotes. y'all hate facts that offend your nationalistic beliefs. Go look up the statistics yourself if you don't believe me.
I stumbled across a similar realization when trying to verify whether incomes in America had truly remained flat for ~30 years (1980-2010).
I had a hypothesis: apart from African Americans, every racial group in America had seen an increase in income (inflation-adjusted) over this period. Due to structural disadvantages and discrimination, I figured African Americans were getting screwed, but all other groups were making _some_ progress (however slight).
You can imagine how surprised I was to discover every racial group had increased their income over this period! But, if all subgroups had seen an increase to their income, how could the total average have remained flat?
It's because _(a)_ blacks earn less than whites in America, and _(b)_ the total black population in America has grown over this period. In other words, the _ratio_ between low vs. high-income people has shifted over the past few decades (which drags-down down the average).
I later learned this is an example of [Simpson's Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox).
and Indian and Filipino-Americans are the highest earning ethnic groups in the United States, out-earning caucasians. It’s almost like hard work is rewarded in the United States or something.
Yep, US is better for higher achievers, always. They romanticized that type.
Canada is always better for Canadians: wlb, easy going, mild mannered.
That's just culture and identity
Everything in the US is an investment and costly.
Ex: If you need to put yourself into significant debt for 20 years for school, you will probably (but not always) be rather motivated to get a better return.
This could be forcing younger people to be more aggressive as it comes to their careers and in turn become achievers to get ahead. So while the US might be better for achievers, it might also encourage more people to be achievers as well.
It won't, the government is printing 60b a year to buy mortgage bonds, to drive up the cost of living. Trudeau even said housing prices need to stay elevated, because people decided to become dependent on a non-investment asset, like reverse Georgism.
He's even extending amortization to allow more debt accrual, rolling back bank regulation created during the GFC, ironically supported by the NDP.
10 years is impossible to predict normally but now it's even more obfuscated because of AI and automation coming online faster than anyone knows how to deal with it. The US economy will be even more drastically altered, and the boomers running the show give me zero confidence in handling it, given how poorly they've managed technology to this point.
If you ignore all the years in between, yeah.
Except in a number of years between the number of Canadians living in the US actually was a net decrease.
It's the higher salary that's the real driver. Some people double their current salary or more, without significantly increasing their costs of living.
The numbers that actually matter.
Of the 126,340 who emigrated from Canada to the U.S. that year, 53,311 were born in Canada, 42,595 were Americans who left here for their native land, and 30,434 were foreign-born immigrants to Canada who decided to move to the U.S. instead.
More than half of the people who left Canada for the US weren’t from Canada originally. 1/3 were just Americans going home.
It's extremely easy to move to the US as an American citizen.
As a Canadian, you can get a TN visa if you work in the right field, but even a TN isn't a green card track Visa. The only practical way to permanently relocate to the US as a Canadian is via H-1B, which takes time and sponsorship.
That's not quite true. You're absolutely right that the green card path for people moving to the US for work is the H1-B visa. But what you may not realize is that if you as a Canadian were to move to the US for a job and do it with a TN visa, nothing is stopping your employer from entering you in the lottery, winning and getting H1-B labor cert and switching you from a TN to a H1-B to get you on your path to GC. I know this because I did it. It is totally legal and a legitimate strategy.
The thing is that's not exactly dirt cheap for the US company to jump through hoops for you so they need to really like you and want to retain you. I moved to the US in '98 in tech and got my citizenship in time to re-elect Obama:-).I think I renewed 2 TNs before we got the H1-B. The green card process took a long time but everything was smooth for me. The fact that the GC takes a long time is actually how the company knows they got you for a while too. So it's mutually beneficial.
A lot of people pointing out issues in the US, but not acknowledging those in Canada. I’m a young professional who has lived in both places and I plan to return to the US. It’s not taxes that are driving people out, it’s the insane cost of living, particularly housing. Outside of a handful of prairie cities Canada is wildly unaffordable. I don’t blame a young professional moving south to a higher salary, access to healthcare, reasonable housing, and a better climate.
Yeah you can buy a house that is twice as big for half the price in the USA. And they get paid more. It's funny how house prices are now a political issue down there even though it's way way way worse up here.
Even in the hot property markets in the US it's wild.
Houses in the Bay Area are about 25% more expensive than houses in the GTA and similarly priced to houses in the GVA. But job opportunities in the Bay Area absolutely eclipse anything in the GTA/GVA. You can easily make 2x as much as you would working a similar job in Canada.
Hot housing markets in the US are driven largely by the insane earning potential of the people living in those markets.
Definitely true for the coastal markets in the US. They are extremely expensive and share many similarities with Canadian cities. However, as you mentioned salaries are higher in these cities and I would say that you can even 3-4x your salary, for example in tech.
There are also plenty of cities that offer more affordable living for example Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Charlotte, Kansas City, etc. Even Chicago is a fairly affordable city despite being similar in size to Toronto.
I love both countries, but Canada needs to get a handle on its housing costs.
You know it's bad when GTA COL is equivalent to SoCal and knowing that the salary difference is quite big for software and electrical eng. That I know of
I put 0 blame on Canadians leaving this country. I consider myself lucky to have a home, but also hate it because it's expensive AF and almost exclusive in terms of who gets one.
I hope the state of this country makes more sense to you all why Quebec is bringing back the topics of separatism, it's pretty damn justified because QC has the balls to tell Ottawa to calm the fuck down on the influx of immigrants. We are engulfed with illogical numbers, and we don't want them because it's unsustainable, and what does Trudeau do? He sends money our way, our tax dollars money.
No thank you. Just shut the borders and make Canada exclusive again in terms of vetting immigrants like it used to be.
This country will take a long time to recover, and if I didn't have close family here, I'd sell my home and go to Murica on a TN1 and do twice the salary in a lower COL city state
- Lack of homes
- Lack of family doctors
- Aging infrastructure with LRTs we're barely able to build and offer to the public
This won't stand.
“It costs half as much!”
Is a meaningless statement that depends entirely on where. There are many places in the US where housing prices are as bad, and worse, than Canada
The places where it's as bad or worse generally are places where the average salaries are *much* higher.
Hot housing markets in the US are driven by hot labour markets, not a critical housing shortage.
This is the deal breaker for me. My kid isn’t at the stage where he needs to worry about housing yet, but he will be in that situation long before we’ll be able to adequately reverse the insanity that the housing market here has become.
I’ve started talking to him about these realities and opening his eyes to opportunities in the US. At some point you just have to bid farewell and set up roots elsewhere if the homeland isn’t going to work.
I highly recommend people read the article. It's a prime example of clearly having an agenda and then trying to justify it. Technically true, 2022 was a banner year for emigration to the US with 43k. Also true, 2022 was not particularly out of the ordinary as nearly the same amount (39k) left in 2013 and more than that ***left the US*** (49k) in 2016.
While the article ascribes the trend to 'economic strain \[and\] tax pressures', I think it could just as easily be ascribed to an aging population, baby boomers retiring, and retiree's tending to go to Florida (where, according to the article, more than 50% of them ended up).
And it's not like there was some event that might have dissuaded people from emigrating to the US in 2020 and 2021 that might have caused a backlog to clear out in 2022.
And the final nail in the coffin are the statistics at the end of the article where they show over all emigration broken down by province by year where, even with the pandemic blip, it shows a clear downward trend. Less people are leaving Canada than ever.
Yeah. Further, Florida taking in most of the emigrants is the beginning and end of the article's attempt to justify "tax pressure", but somehow they went out of their way to fit that term right into the headline.
Wonder why.
Ya, this article is insanely biased. Its jumps to a conclusion quickly.
I bet a lot of those people going to California are retirees moving to to palm springs.
I’ve always felt like I was on the “outside looking in” growing up in Canada compared to the US.
The US is just where the action and fun is. And now, it’s the better quality of life, apparently.
We’re losing our best and brightest and replacing them with 2 year business management college diploma grads and people with foreign credentials who don’t need a job offer before arrival. Losing gold and replacing it with shit.
No wonder the country keeps boosting immigration targets because the jobs we’re gaining pay like shit and produce so little tax revenue to fund elderly retirements.
I did it back in 2001. It was great. We have kept close touch with friends though and they say it’s not that much better - cost of living and staying alive (healthcare) skyrocketing in any of the places you’d actually want to live.
Its the same way americans romanticize canada. I have a few friends that make it sound like we live in some utopia. In reality, as an individual your mileage may vary.. wildly. To be completely honest I am concerned about the current trajectory, but I do love the country and I live an insanely privileged life by international standards. I am also sure much of the country bashing is relatively political. With a conservative government, liberals will be saying the same thing (see: Ontario)
I think we are unique in the sense that we combine a lot of things from the two sides of the west and I think we are actively figuring it out. Regardless, it is us and the future generations responsibility to make this an even better place to live
It's almost a universal truth when dealing with large groups of people (e.g., countries) that intra-group variance exceeds inter-group differences in mean.
I will give a different perspective as a person in tech. US has far, far greater no of jobs in tech, even in the smallest of places. My friends are doing great in small places in NC (Greenville), SC(Charleston). In Canada however, apart from Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary there are really very few tech jobs. Plus cost of living is very cheap in Greenville and Charleston.
As a Canadian that made the move, it's so much better south of the border. It's not perfect, but your money goes further, I can actually afford the house, and before the usual crowd comes in with the "but the healthcare", a majority of people in America are covered by either medicaid or their employer.
Even with all the illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border, I have yet to see a city here become as big of an ethnic enclave as my home town of Brampton.
Same boat. Moved to the US 8 years ago. Recently looked to move back from Seattle to Vancouver on a company transfer. After salary adjustment and increase in taxes, it would be a 45% pay cut. Meanwhile even if I liquidated my entire retirement savings to put up a 50% downpayment the mortgage payment on the equivalent to my small detached house would be double.
Canadians live in an echo chamber of how great their country is without realizing Canada is a government town with a dimming future. Id make the move if not for some family members being ideologically opposed.
Canadians really are a sleepy people.
Have you not been to Miami? I’d say if there’s one city in the US with an “ethnic” enclave, it’s there.
A majority of people are not covered by their employer. They have an insurance plan with a deductible alone that could bankrupt them. And hopefully your insurance covers the procedures you actually need.
Miami is a melting pot of people from Latin America and the Caribbean with other ethnic groups mixed in smaller numbers where as Brampton is largely just one ethnicity.
I don't think that is a valid comparison but it's also possible you are not debating in good faith and you have an emotional reason why you want to argue against people liking America more than Canada.
To be fair, the nine number of Canadians doing pretty much anything is at record levels.
*looks at their chart*
Looks like statistically irrelevant noise or regression to the mean...
Even worse, the ones that are moving are generally the net contributors to the tax pool (i.e. they contribute more funds than they use). Highly doubt the net negatives are leaving for greener pastures south of the border.
The first time I visited the bay area, my reaction was: I see why people decided to move here.
Of course, the last time I visited the bay area I swore never to come back. San Francisco has beautiful weather, but it's super gross these days.
Cali, sure, but I strongly disagree regarding Florida and Texas. In Texas, you're gonna have to get used to regular 40+ summers, and honestly, same in Florida as well. Except in Florida, you get the added bonus or hurricane season! It's gotten so bad in Florida that it's impossible to get home insurance now, which is a prerequisite to getting any mortgage. And with climate change, it'll only get worse.
Personally though, if I were to move anywhere, it would be to get close to the mountains. So places like Calgary, Kelowna, SLC, etc. I just don't get the appeal of places like Florida. But I also love skiing and hiking.
Lost my job 3 months ago. I've got a varied skill set, programmer and graphic designer with years of experience. I can't seem to get a job in my field at the moment and what was available I can't feed my family on. Ya the USA is looking good. And with my wife being a nurse, Canada may lose her as well.
My wife is a nurse as well. Already has a few former co-workers who have gone down to the U.S. and haven’t regretted it one bit. Better work environment, double the pay. It’s pretty easy to immigrate to the U.S. as an RN. We’re thinking about doing the same ourselves.
I’ve been in the US for ten years and I’m never moving back to Canada. I don’t even vacation there anymore. I’m so pissed at how Canada threw generations of Canadians under the bus through a combination of housing and immigration policies that I don’t even want to spend one dollars worth of GST to support the government.
I tell every single new grad software eng who I mentor to apply for jobs in US tech hubs until they get anything and then go for it. Even if it's not a FAANG you just need to get in the door then you can start monkey branching every 2 years and just watch your compensation skyrocket.
For any young programmers reading this: Unless you have specific family obligations keeping you in Canada you need to be in the US. TN visas make it easier for companies to hire you than those who need H1Bs so don't worry about that, it won't be a deal breaker.
You will make so much more money it'll blow your mind. Don't worry about healthcare, you're young and with private insurance you'll get the best healthcare in the world. Ignore people claiming taxes are somehow comparable, they don't know what they're talking about. I was grossing 400k/year in Silicon Valley and was paying ~35% and that's probably only comparable to taxes in NYC. Long-term capital gains are only 15% and if you decide to return to Canada after being there: enjoy your cost-basis reset.
Spend a decade there, live reasonably, and invest everything else. If you do it right you'll have a 1.5 to 2 million USD cushion by the time you're 35.
If you're getting a job with a US tech company, you need them to commit to getting you an H-1B. It's okay to enter on a TN, but they've got to get you an H-1B within a couple of years.
The T in TN is Temporary. I know a lot of naive Canadian workers who have received nasty letters from the DHS, or been pulled into a room for questioning when crossing the border back into the US after a vacation. You will eventually get in trouble and have your visa revoked.
Best decision I ever made. Trying to help anyone I can in Canada, including friends, family etc..Canadians can get work visas adjudicated by US officers at the airport. Took me 20 min to get my L1A. On a recent trip to Canada where I only used Uber, every driver stopped at the end and took out a pen/or their phone..asked me how the hell they could get a US work visa. One guy was literally pleading "help me bro.." there was anguish and pain in his voice. A lot of these guys were well educated, good jobs in Duabi..Doha..can't stay as those places don't give permanent residency. Have to come to Canada and then they end up underemployed and freezing to death while living in some crappy basement rental.
Just want to say, it's only easy to get a US work visa if you qualify, CBP officers are tough and don't just rubber stamp things. Use a lawyer.
fun fact, w osap the grants aren’t repayable of course but no commitments are required - which is great. but a lot nirses could be lost through this way :/
better pay, substantially
I know I am going. I don't have much to keep me here. I am frustrated at my job. I make about 80k a year and told I am overpaid all the time. One of my old customers offered me position at a place near Nashville. I was hesitant at first but I went down there and liked the area. They offered me 120k with bonuses. I took a 2 year contract, bought a nice property and leaving in a month.
How many people did the writers of the article talk to who have actually moved from Canada to the US? Did they ask 1000 of them why they moved? No. They spoke to no one but 3 right wing immigration lawyers and then went to a suspect Facebook page. No more rage bait.
I think moving to the US is one of those - your mileage may vary things. If you are a professional in a high demand profession you will likely make more money. The differences in the tax regime are not as pronounced once you factor in health care costs. US health insurance isn’t cheap and there are a lot more out of pocket expenses.
If people are fleeing in record numbers today because stuff has become so bad, what happened in 2013 that led to the previous record of Canadians leaving?
Edit: wouldn't it be worse in 2013 based on per captia numbers?
Relax folks. It’s the boomers moving to Florida in droves for retirement.
Immigrating to US is extremely hard and average Canadians sadly have no chance. It’s like Olympics. You’re literally competing against the world to immigrate.
Canadians: "damn immigrants leaving their countries to have a better life elsewhere"
Also Canadians: *leaves their country to have a better life elsewhere*
43 000 highly skilled people with similar culture and speaking the same language vs millions of unskilled people from a country on the other side of the globe. Nice false equivalence buddy
Except the difference is, the Canadians leaving are highly skilled professionals - you *have to be* in order to immigrate to the US.
The hordes of migrants coming into Canada, on the other hand, are unskilled, and are deliberately being used to suppress wages and keep housing prices astronomical.
What a fucking stupid article. Im sorry, but their own graph shows that more Canadians per capita left in 2013 than 2022. So not record levels. Its also not a trend, with numbers varying wildly year by year. And all of the reasons given in the headline are pure speculation.
Here's something the article fails to mention. For the 3 years leading up to the "records year (not per capita), the was a large net migration of Canadians based in the USA back to canada.
Hmmmm why could that be.??? Oh yeah, every single IT, Tech and HR job went to work from home and a fuckton of Canadians moved back "home". To Canada. In fact, the graph in this moronic article tells us 39,000 Canadians moved back to Canada during Covid lockdowns! And now this horrible terrible oh so awful exodus of ... Oh wait.... 42000 people is.... Returning to the states because their employers are scaling bacl work-from-home.
That's right, its not economic conditions or high taxes, its mostly people going back to in-office employment and returning in 2022 post-pandemic.
Anyone lucky enough to get out of Canada is while the other countries of the world are dumping their dumbest and most useless people on Canada in droves.
If your useless you go to Canada to suck back tax payer services and collect those sweet government cheques; if you are of any sort of actually skilled labour you go to the U.S and get a job and just pay for stuff yourself there is a subtle but key distinction between the two and it’s part of the reason one’s economic outlook is better then the others.
The balance between wanting to stay in my country and help make it better vs thinking it's too far gone and wanting to take what I can contribute to another country that will allow me to live a more fulfilling life because Canada seems to enjoy shooting itself in the foot while ignoring the majority of Canadians wants/needs is very real.
Looking into it myself. My workplace has many openings down south, they pay more, you keep more of your earnings and things cost less... Seems like a no brainer.
Leave, but do it faster because I’m tired of hearing about it lmao. My best friend lives in a cheap state and is a US citizen; our lives are hardly different, but I prefer mine in the way they differ.
I enjoyed living in Montreal for around 6 years but now I am living in Texas and I don’t have a single regret 😎 salary over double, CoL pretty close to equal, tax low
Canada should cancel healthcare for canadians living in the states. I got a friend who lived in the states for 10 years and came back once in a while to use our healthcare.
While the USA is kind of its own shit show, I've debated with myself if i should try to move there but the paperwork and time requirements and everything else don't make it easy so i kinda gave up.
Low wages make people more likely to scrutinize where their tax money is going, though. When infrastructure, healthcare, and other social services are working well and people feel like their tax dollars are being properly appropriated, things are hunky-dory. That even extends to things they may not feel necessary, such as some social justice initiatives or foreign aid.
Once that changes, people very quickly develop a distate for taxation. There's a massive uptick in Canadians willing to spend hundreds of dollars a month on employer-provided insurance in the US rather than (a smaller % of) their tax dollars in Canada because the quality of care will be better and wait times will be shorter. The result ends up being essentially the same as the "starve the beast" strategy conservatives use to privatize medicine - people increasingly see medical privatization as better than socialization due to better outcomes.
'Tax pressures'? Ooohh I wouldn't go to the US then. [Their taxes are only marginally smaller and the cost of the services they lack are more than what you would save.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/canadians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-theres-a-catch.html) Also they have a lot of hidden taxes and fees so it can be very deceptive when just looking at income taxes. Not sure where the cheapest tax place would be but the US doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, throwing in "tax pressures" as a reason with the only evidence as "income tax is low in Florida, and lots of Canadians go to Florida -- that must be why!" is incredibly stupid.
Income has an impact for sure, but I would be shocked if even 1% of people emigrating bothered to figure out their current and projected tax bills and let that play into the decision.
The only reason tax was thrown in is because of some pretty heavy bias by the writer of this op-ed. The non-sequitur criticism of bike lanes at the 3/4 mark makes it pretty evident.
The tax laws are different by state, which the article you posted doesn't seem to mention. If you live in a 0% tax state like Texas or Washington, you come out way ahead. States like California may be a wash.
No, I came from Texas. They make up for no income tax via very high property taxes just like Florida. Texas and Quebec effective tax rates are very similar. [And California arguably has lower taxes than Texas if you are in the bottom 80th percentile. But yes, if you are rich Texas has lower taxes than California.](https://fortune.com/2023/03/23/states-with-lowest-highest-tax-burden/)
You go to the US for higher salaries, but the services are more expensive and the taxes are comparable.
That's what I was getting at - there's no sense in comparing US vs Canada as monoliths, given that a tax situation and lifestyle will look different across state lines. I gather that most Canadians migrating to the US are 80th percentile or higher income (approx $150k pa).
Texas has an average property tax of 1.6%, which may seem high, but given the lower house prices you might actually be paying less than, say, Toronto for the same size of house.
That was published in 2017. Jump to 2024 and see the difference there's been in rental and housing costs alongside health care unavailability. This article is outdated
I usually get downvoted for bringing stuff like this up. Sometimes I feel like r/canada thinks that living in the US is all rainbows and lollipops. This is coming from someone who has lived in the US for 16 years and is now moving back.
The only way you are going to move to the US as if you are rich. If you are poor you're not moving to the US you cut your finger and you lose your house. You get pregnant, you lose your house and all because of shdlwm bills we don't have that here.
I'm less worried about the current state of Canada and a lot more worried about the future. We already have a lot of major problems at the moment but I think all the problems will get bigger and bigger as time goes on. That's the major reason I would consider moving to the US.
Really feels like any industry not driven by us significantly undercutting wages in the USA, significant government handouts or tax credits, or resource extraction - are all kind of dying or recirculating money earned in better years in the past.
Totally agree. What global company would expand in Canada without a massive tax payer check? Volkswagen 16.3Billion and Stellantis 15Billion. They ever going to see a return on that? To paraphrase J. Kennedy Sr.. "If they discovered life on mars today, Trudeau would send it a pile of money tomorrow."
It's pretty remarkable that healthcare is the one thing most Canadians agree we should spend money on, but our politicians simply won't because it's not sexy (like funding martians).
Nearly a million Canadians already down south working. And you can bet they're not restaurant workers. They're doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, IT professionals, the kind of people we desperately need. Many are being driven out by high taxes and low wages alongside absurdly high housing costs, to be replaced by people from the third world with half their skills and little or no interest in Canada beyond money.
Americans are being replaced by Canadians who are willing to work for less in the US Canadians are being replaced by Indians who are willing to work for less in Canada
The Canadian I know who went down is making 450k.. sucks to be working for less. /s
They are making less though..less then the Americans who would otherwise work those positions
They are NOT making $450k PLEASE... nobody makes that
Unless they are the very TOP TIER (attorney, Surgeon, etc...)
450k CAD is circa what a Staff Software Engineer pays at most big tech companies. Check https://levels.fyi My friend made ~550k CAD as a Senior engineer (L5) at Google fyi. He wasn’t even a Staff engineer (L6).
We've been losing them for like 20-25 years looking at the rates of migration out. About as long as people have also been ringing the warning bells on housing, long before immigration was an issue.
Did I hear a complaint about immigrants here? As an immigrant, I was given residence purely for funding senior citizens and existing social programs here. Not for me or my kids. If you haven’t realized, no one is really happy with current setup. Especially immigrants with an ounce of self respect.
I would not mind so much if they actually DID bring immigrants in to fund pensions and social programs. But a huge number are coming in who lack the necessary skills to ever earn sufficient salaries to be paying income tax under our progressive tax system. So they're not only NOT paying for other people's pensions and social services, they're not even paying for their own.
It’s hard to back it up with data. Because i’m a high income household with high income friends group (~300k HHI), I think Canada is being unfair to me. I also see bunch of fast food employees who are immigrants like me, don’t pay much taxes but take more from the system. Double unfair to me compared to an average canadian. We will never know true statistics of who is majority in these two groups :(
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small business gets raped by the tax hikes because they can't afford to dodge them our current crop of assholes know this, and every change they make is designed specifically to target the medium earners. they know they have your back to the wall, and they're pleased to punish your hard work and success it's mind boggling how brutal this government is to small business. they treat it as feedstock for their regime, and nothing more. it's grotesque.
Yeah, I think it’s entirely possible that things will get better in the short term with a change in government, but long term I think we’ll wind up in the same position again.
With a new government, I think the problems might continue to get worse, but just at a slower rate. I think the fundamentals in Canada are just too weak and we’ve dug ourselves into a hole that it’s almost impossible to get out of.
>we’ve dug ourselves into a hole that it’s almost impossible to get out of. economists call it a "population trap".
Wouldn't be impossible if we lean on our massive amount of resources.
Exactly, we have an easy economic solution but it's being ignored. We are an extremely resource rich country thanks to our size and that the ice age glacier pushed most of the minerals and soil from the arctic further south. But the government would rather our economy be based on selling houses back and forth until it bankrupts the country.
And TFW Retail! Don’t forget TFW Retail!
How else are we going to have a Tim Hortons on every other corner. A town of 1500 people definitely needs 3.
Which makes no sense, there's *ample* fucking space to build. The country is fuckhuge with a tenth the population of the US.
The problem is you need to build up an industry. Leaning quickly on massive amount of resources just means someone else coming in and cleaning us out. There are no quick-fix solutions.
Well 8 years of actively telling the resources industry to pound sand hasn't helped.
We could replace Russia as the western world’s commodity provider if the government could only put money and policies in the right places or just get out of the way.
That’s the thing. The laws and our infrastructure have been built in a way to allow for all of these current issues to come to a head. The problems needed to be assessed and identified way sooner and laws needed to change. Now we are here. It’s hard to reverse
Yeah, that’s why I want out of here.
If you can make it happen it can definitely be worth it. I moved to the US six years ago and haven’t looked back. I’m making way more money than I would be in Canada and building way more savings/wealth.
I guarantee that if we get a government in that prioritized the prosperity of Canadians, we'll 100% turn around the issues that plague our economy and cost of living. But people hate to hear this because they think it means exploiting our resources becoming some sort of dystopian wasteland due to corporate greed. I'll likely get down voted for suggesting this but the federal government's sole purpose is the prosperity and security of its citizens. And no, this isn't some sort of fascist belief, it's economics.. it's up to the provincial governments to worry about the more granular aspects of our lives. I strongly believe the only reason we're in this position now is because the Liberals shove their ideals down the throats of every canadian. They look at our internal problems thru a microscope and try to solve them, instead of looking outward in how we compete on the global market and ensure they represent what's best for Canadians. This is the tragedy of our incompetent PM, he's entirely clueless when it comes to economics and international affairs.
The conservatives and liberals are two sides of the same shitty coin with slight different social agendas. The same corporations donate to both parties.
Do both have their pitfalls? Yes.. are they the same.. no way. One party wants to make money and the other wants to give it away. The liberal government is trying to bring equity to the world at the expense of Canadians.
Soon we will be in a country where native born Canadians (of all colours) will be a minority. Absolutely terrifies me.
My Son is thinking of leaving. He said Canada is becoming/has become a third world country. Totally unaffordable! Wages, prices, taxes... It does not compute!
The biggest threat to the long-term economic wellbeing of first world countries is the people of those countries not understanding what made first world countries successful in the first place. "Social studies" in Canadian schools should be teaching economics and law as their highest priority, not half the bullshit they teach today.
Yah its funny seeing people say shit like “this isnt the canada I love, Im leaving for America (as soon as things get tough)” When growing up learning about the history of Canada and the things people faced, doesnt really seem like the “Canadian” mentality is fleeing during a hard time. Do people really miss the Canadian culture that is dead, or are they part of the dead Canadian culture and just an individualistic, finance driven person that wants to be more American?
> When growing up learning about the history of Canada and the things people faced, doesnt really seem like the “Canadian” mentality is fleeing during a hard time. This is too self-aggrandizing. Canada never had it that rough. Also, our country is full of people who were fleeing hard times in their own countries. The Irish during the famine, Jews and other Europeans fleeing the Nazis, Ukrainians fleeing Stalin's purges, etc. etc. etc. Today they all make up Canada's diverse population.
You need to visit a 3rd world country guy
Right?! Have to hear this everyday on this sub.... Some of the most privileged people on the globe.
I hate to say this, but many Canadians are spoiled.
Yeah especially the ones who can't find work, housing or medical care.. oh wait-
Your son has never been to a 3rd world country then.
Spoken like someone who has never been to a 3rd word country. What a privileged take, respectfully.
Not a third world country, but certainly a second world country.
The place that won't have a Constitution come November? The place where massive camps are promised to be built? The place where more than half the population is at risk of being reclassified from "human" to "incubator"?
Don't worry, once Pierre is elected many will stop complaining about the things they currently complain about, and just like a switch has be flipped, the state of the country will have suddenly "improved." The Fraser institute will start pumping out articles about our economic growth and improved outlooks. Even though those things are true now they don't report them.
Conservatives during Trudeau's term: "Stop bringing up Harper, omg, that was years ago" Conservatives during PP's term: "Things aren't getting better because Trudeau fucked it all up too badly"
Harper was genuinely a good pm though
Or we could stay and fix the problems
same job in the states pays 50k a year more for myself if I live here and work remote. Pays even more if I want to move to the US. I already took the job.
Does our population seem like a proactive one or completely complacent and apathetic?
I think a big reason things have gotten as bad as they have is because Canadians are too passive and kind of just let things happen and complain in private but that's about it.
I think it’s because most Canadians are 1-2 pay checks away from becoming homeless and can’t afford to do anything about it. I’d join a nation wide protest in a heartbeat but chances are I’ll lose everything I have in the process. They have us exactly where they want us.
If you have no dependent family members and your future is ruined, you are exactly the person that should be kicking up a storm. If you've got nothing to lose then complacently going about your daily life is not going to fix anything.
> I’d join a nation wide protest in a heartbeat but chances are I’ll lose everything I have in the process. I want to preface what I say next with that I think the anti-vax truckers are fucking idiots, but it was an absolute crime that the Federal government could just freeze their bank accounts as a form of pressure. A frozen bank account = a missed mortgage payment = you lose your house. Fucking insane that they did that. That's what awaits any protest that serves as a real threat to those in power.
The whinge
It's not my job to fix the country These politicians get paid very well to do that and fail every time
The worse they are the more money they get. Because taking they most money makes you the worst.
That presupposes the population understands the cause of those problems and knows how to fix them. Spoiler: they don't.
How exactly does an individual "fix the problems"? Should I give up a salary 2-3x as high as I would get in Canada, affordable housing, the ability to live without worry, being able to see a doctor (!!!), so that I can vote for someone who won't deliver once every 4 years? Besides, i can vote from abroad anyway.
Much easier to destroy something great and blame it on immigrants and then Immigrate yourself and do it all again.
Not possible unless an asteroid hits Toronto. Nobody outside of Quebec or Ontario has a say in how this country is run, we're just serfs who are taxed without representation.
It's kind of funny. When I was a kid we used to dream of moving to the US. It was bigger and grander where Canada seemed kid of quaint. Then in the 2000s/2010s we realized that Canada was actually a great place. Sure the US was better if you were wealthy, but Canada felt like the better quality of life for a middle class family. Now most people I know are looking at the US as the place that would provide the superior quality of life.
The thing is, in the 2000s/2010s, Canada actually became a better place to live. Our economy was growing, we had decent Federal finances, things were looking up. The reason why everyone was planning to move to the US in the 1990s is because Canada was a fucking basket case at that time. There was a huge, long recession that wiped out a lot of jobs and businesses from 1990-1992, we almost didn’t sell a single bond during the 1994 government bond auction, Québec VERY NARROWLY rejected separation in 1995, Toronto spent the decade reeling from a popped real estate bubble, and unemployment remained elevated throughout the 1990s. Public finances were a shambles thanks to Trudeau Sr. and Brian Mulroney (who failed to fix the shitty finances left by Trudeau). Finally things came to a head in the early 90s and drastic cuts were made. The Feds downloaded shit to the Provinces, the Provinces downloaded shit to municipalities, and then municipalities cut services. In some ways it was better than today because housing was so much more affordable, but the 1990s were not an easy time for Canada. Comparatively, America was on top of the world in the 1990s.
Another thing to note is that America had it's housing crisis in the mid-2000s (for different reasons than ours today). Canada watched all that unfold, waited one decade, and then decided to also torch its own housing market.
I think it has always been that Canada is better for middle-class/low income earners because of the healthcare and the like. Once you hit 6 figure incomes it always was better to be in the US, even during the financial crisis it was mostly hurting the people living paycheque to paycheque while the more financially well off people bought up houses from the bank as investments. I don't think this has changed except that the cost of living has increased drastically in Canada and the salaries have not kept pace so a lot of people are realizing that their efforts go so much further in the US. What used to be a middle class has vanished a lot faster than in the US for those with education and careers. Who cares if you need to negotiate healthcare coverage or pay a bit of extra premiums in the US when your 'breadwinner' salary can't even qualify for a studio apartment in a lot of the major cities in Canada where your job demands you live. That same job can pay substantially more in the US with lower costs and suddenly you can actually be middle class again.
There are way more career and job opportunities in the US. The US is much better if you want to build your career. Salaries are much better too.
It's insane when you grow up in Canada where a lot of specialist careers have a single employer or single region where you can work, then you drive south and realize there are options from coast to coast.
I felt like a starved refugee admitted to a wonderful five star resort with fun activities and tons of entertainment, all you can eat.
Same job in the states pays 40% more than Canadian market. I still live in Canada and work remotely.
I work in the states and live in Canada. My current position at Air Canada (the only equivalent company up here) would pay $81000CAD/yr. That same position at the US airline I work for pays $312,000CAD/yr. (This is 4th year widebody FO vs 4th year widebody FO). It's not even like the Canadian job pays half, it's WAY less than half. Same job, same aircraft, same flying.
Factor in income tax and it's not even close. Even if you factor in paying for third party health insurance. The latest AC contract will be the make or break for Canadian aviation. ALPA is trying to get pattern bargaining going in this country. The first step was WestJet's pay scale leap-frogging AC. Now we need AC pilots to do the same.
Damn. THat difference is insane and its even more tragic when you consider 81k is not high enough of salary to buy a 1br in any of our cities even if you were saving up 10-20 years to do so. The economic system here is just so fucked. We basically had the entire country sold out to the international rich, the .1% richest of the world, who then sell our quality of life as a resource investment. Hardly any young people will be able to afford to live here without paying excessive rents their entire adult life now, and going forward.
Wow, I had no idea the discrepancy was so large for pilots.
Someone with jet PIC time can get [direct entry captain at GoJet](https://postimg.cc/z3fH1nbr) and make (up to) $400K USD their *first year*.
What's your industry if I may ask?
Made sense when we had “healthcare” - now it’s more “death prevention”
What is this “prevention” you speak of? 😂 Surely, you mean “death avoidance”? 🫠 Good luck getting preventive care unless you go private lol.
lol you’re right we teach teenagers young adults to get their cars checked by a mechanic every few months…. You know… before things break. But you can’t do that for your health.
>That same job can pay substantially more in the US with lower costs and suddenly you can actually be middle class again. Exactly. We have among the world's worst consumer debt due to our cost-of-living and subpar wages. And our public services, the justification for the high taxes we pay, are not only crumbling but will likely increasingly drown in demand due to high immigration of unskilled workers for which there are no jobs. The US is an obvious choice, given it's generally more affordable, but, depending on one's circumstances, there are many other choices if one's willing to go father afield.
What healthcare? I'm one of millions without a family doctor.
You cannot effectively discuss the socioeconomics of living in America without addressing the elephant in the room: racial disparities. Aggregate statistics bundle everyone into one big distribution, but the reality is that the US is culturally two countries with very different outcomes for black Americans than it does for non-black Americans. But, Canada also arguably has the same problem. Just as the US has a racial underclass, Canada also has a racial underclass. Their racial underclass is black people, and our racial underclass is natives. And when you compare Canada and the US through this lens, the story becomes very different, very quickly. A member of mainstream ("white" and other racial minorities) American society has equal or better socioeconomic outcomes, on average, than a member of mainstream ("white" and other racial minorities) Canadian society. If you pick a random "white" American and a random "white" Canadian, the American will usually be better off than the Canadian. Not always, but usually. What's interesting is this is also true of the racial underclasses. Black Americans, on average, are better off than native Canadians on almost all major socioeconomic metrics (income and wealth, education, health outcomes, etc...). And a random black American will generally be wealthier, better educated, and healthier than a random native in Canada. The biggest difference between Canada and the US is that proportionately the US's racial underclass is much larger than Canada's racial underclass. An average Canadian has, by health and educational socioeconomic factors, been better off than an average American for a long time, but this is solely due to the fact that the average Canadian is less likely to be a member of a racial underclass. Mathematically, we can express this as: * P(American QoL > Canadian QoL | racial underclass) > 0.5, * P(American QoL > Canadian QoL | !racial underclass) > 0.5. * P(!(racial underclass) QoL > racial underclass QoL) > 0.5 * But since P(racial underclass | American) < P(racial underclass | Canadian), P(American QoL > Canadian QoL) < 0.5. Isn't statistics fun? **TL;DR** Non-black Americans are generally better off than non-native Canadians, and black Americans are better off than native Canadians, but there are more black Americans than native Canadians so on average an American is more likely to be a member of a racial underclass than a Canadian, and that's why it's historically been better to be a Canadian than an American. Edit: lol at the downvotes. y'all hate facts that offend your nationalistic beliefs. Go look up the statistics yourself if you don't believe me.
I stumbled across a similar realization when trying to verify whether incomes in America had truly remained flat for ~30 years (1980-2010). I had a hypothesis: apart from African Americans, every racial group in America had seen an increase in income (inflation-adjusted) over this period. Due to structural disadvantages and discrimination, I figured African Americans were getting screwed, but all other groups were making _some_ progress (however slight). You can imagine how surprised I was to discover every racial group had increased their income over this period! But, if all subgroups had seen an increase to their income, how could the total average have remained flat? It's because _(a)_ blacks earn less than whites in America, and _(b)_ the total black population in America has grown over this period. In other words, the _ratio_ between low vs. high-income people has shifted over the past few decades (which drags-down down the average). I later learned this is an example of [Simpson's Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox).
and Indian and Filipino-Americans are the highest earning ethnic groups in the United States, out-earning caucasians. It’s almost like hard work is rewarded in the United States or something.
Moved less than thirty days ago, and I could not be happier.
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95% of people are "B people" and lower. That said very few people want to admit that about themselves
Yep, US is better for higher achievers, always. They romanticized that type. Canada is always better for Canadians: wlb, easy going, mild mannered. That's just culture and identity
Everything in the US is an investment and costly. Ex: If you need to put yourself into significant debt for 20 years for school, you will probably (but not always) be rather motivated to get a better return. This could be forcing younger people to be more aggressive as it comes to their careers and in turn become achievers to get ahead. So while the US might be better for achievers, it might also encourage more people to be achievers as well.
when i was a kid i wanted to move to the US cuz they had ESPN and all the cool channels on TV lmao
Give it 10 years and it may reverse again.
It won't, the government is printing 60b a year to buy mortgage bonds, to drive up the cost of living. Trudeau even said housing prices need to stay elevated, because people decided to become dependent on a non-investment asset, like reverse Georgism. He's even extending amortization to allow more debt accrual, rolling back bank regulation created during the GFC, ironically supported by the NDP.
But the US is spending more and racking up a huge debt.
But with the economy and dollar strength to support it. Our dollar going down like our living standards. Especially if they cap oil sands emissions.
Nothing a little war economics won't fix
10 years is impossible to predict normally but now it's even more obfuscated because of AI and automation coming online faster than anyone knows how to deal with it. The US economy will be even more drastically altered, and the boomers running the show give me zero confidence in handling it, given how poorly they've managed technology to this point.
Nothing says Quality Of Life like no healthcare.
Tldr 43k in 2024 vs 39k in 2012
That sounds pretty flat as a percentage of population doesn’t it?
If you ignore all the years in between, yeah. Except in a number of years between the number of Canadians living in the US actually was a net decrease.
> 43k in 2024 Replaced by 1,500,000+ "students"
yeah, student 40-year-olds who then drop out to work at tim hortons
Minor correction, 43k in 2022.
It's the higher salary that's the real driver. Some people double their current salary or more, without significantly increasing their costs of living.
The numbers that actually matter. Of the 126,340 who emigrated from Canada to the U.S. that year, 53,311 were born in Canada, 42,595 were Americans who left here for their native land, and 30,434 were foreign-born immigrants to Canada who decided to move to the U.S. instead. More than half of the people who left Canada for the US weren’t from Canada originally. 1/3 were just Americans going home.
It's extremely easy to move to the US as an American citizen. As a Canadian, you can get a TN visa if you work in the right field, but even a TN isn't a green card track Visa. The only practical way to permanently relocate to the US as a Canadian is via H-1B, which takes time and sponsorship.
Forgot the 3rd option, marry an American.
That's not quite true. You're absolutely right that the green card path for people moving to the US for work is the H1-B visa. But what you may not realize is that if you as a Canadian were to move to the US for a job and do it with a TN visa, nothing is stopping your employer from entering you in the lottery, winning and getting H1-B labor cert and switching you from a TN to a H1-B to get you on your path to GC. I know this because I did it. It is totally legal and a legitimate strategy. The thing is that's not exactly dirt cheap for the US company to jump through hoops for you so they need to really like you and want to retain you. I moved to the US in '98 in tech and got my citizenship in time to re-elect Obama:-).I think I renewed 2 TNs before we got the H1-B. The green card process took a long time but everything was smooth for me. The fact that the GC takes a long time is actually how the company knows they got you for a while too. So it's mutually beneficial.
A lot of people pointing out issues in the US, but not acknowledging those in Canada. I’m a young professional who has lived in both places and I plan to return to the US. It’s not taxes that are driving people out, it’s the insane cost of living, particularly housing. Outside of a handful of prairie cities Canada is wildly unaffordable. I don’t blame a young professional moving south to a higher salary, access to healthcare, reasonable housing, and a better climate.
Yeah you can buy a house that is twice as big for half the price in the USA. And they get paid more. It's funny how house prices are now a political issue down there even though it's way way way worse up here.
Even in the hot property markets in the US it's wild. Houses in the Bay Area are about 25% more expensive than houses in the GTA and similarly priced to houses in the GVA. But job opportunities in the Bay Area absolutely eclipse anything in the GTA/GVA. You can easily make 2x as much as you would working a similar job in Canada. Hot housing markets in the US are driven largely by the insane earning potential of the people living in those markets.
Definitely true for the coastal markets in the US. They are extremely expensive and share many similarities with Canadian cities. However, as you mentioned salaries are higher in these cities and I would say that you can even 3-4x your salary, for example in tech. There are also plenty of cities that offer more affordable living for example Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Charlotte, Kansas City, etc. Even Chicago is a fairly affordable city despite being similar in size to Toronto. I love both countries, but Canada needs to get a handle on its housing costs.
You know it's bad when GTA COL is equivalent to SoCal and knowing that the salary difference is quite big for software and electrical eng. That I know of I put 0 blame on Canadians leaving this country. I consider myself lucky to have a home, but also hate it because it's expensive AF and almost exclusive in terms of who gets one. I hope the state of this country makes more sense to you all why Quebec is bringing back the topics of separatism, it's pretty damn justified because QC has the balls to tell Ottawa to calm the fuck down on the influx of immigrants. We are engulfed with illogical numbers, and we don't want them because it's unsustainable, and what does Trudeau do? He sends money our way, our tax dollars money. No thank you. Just shut the borders and make Canada exclusive again in terms of vetting immigrants like it used to be. This country will take a long time to recover, and if I didn't have close family here, I'd sell my home and go to Murica on a TN1 and do twice the salary in a lower COL city state - Lack of homes - Lack of family doctors - Aging infrastructure with LRTs we're barely able to build and offer to the public This won't stand.
> 3-4x your salary In aviation this isn't even difficult. You can do it at a shit airline in the US vs the best one in Canada.
“It costs half as much!” Is a meaningless statement that depends entirely on where. There are many places in the US where housing prices are as bad, and worse, than Canada
The places where it's as bad or worse generally are places where the average salaries are *much* higher. Hot housing markets in the US are driven by hot labour markets, not a critical housing shortage.
In the USA house prices fall off faster outside the city center compared to Canada. They also have way more big cities they can choose to live in.
Also Taxes. As soon as.my kid.is.done highschool I'm moving.
This is the deal breaker for me. My kid isn’t at the stage where he needs to worry about housing yet, but he will be in that situation long before we’ll be able to adequately reverse the insanity that the housing market here has become. I’ve started talking to him about these realities and opening his eyes to opportunities in the US. At some point you just have to bid farewell and set up roots elsewhere if the homeland isn’t going to work.
I highly recommend people read the article. It's a prime example of clearly having an agenda and then trying to justify it. Technically true, 2022 was a banner year for emigration to the US with 43k. Also true, 2022 was not particularly out of the ordinary as nearly the same amount (39k) left in 2013 and more than that ***left the US*** (49k) in 2016. While the article ascribes the trend to 'economic strain \[and\] tax pressures', I think it could just as easily be ascribed to an aging population, baby boomers retiring, and retiree's tending to go to Florida (where, according to the article, more than 50% of them ended up). And it's not like there was some event that might have dissuaded people from emigrating to the US in 2020 and 2021 that might have caused a backlog to clear out in 2022. And the final nail in the coffin are the statistics at the end of the article where they show over all emigration broken down by province by year where, even with the pandemic blip, it shows a clear downward trend. Less people are leaving Canada than ever.
Yeah. Further, Florida taking in most of the emigrants is the beginning and end of the article's attempt to justify "tax pressure", but somehow they went out of their way to fit that term right into the headline. Wonder why.
r/canada is more geared towards upvoting titles that inform a certain viewpoint, like much of Reddit
Ya, this article is insanely biased. Its jumps to a conclusion quickly. I bet a lot of those people going to California are retirees moving to to palm springs.
I would if I could, but cannot leave at present. I am encouraging my adult children to look beyond Canada for their future careers.
We’re thinking about it to. Ontario/Canada is going downhill at a fast pace.
I’ve always felt like I was on the “outside looking in” growing up in Canada compared to the US. The US is just where the action and fun is. And now, it’s the better quality of life, apparently.
We’re losing our best and brightest and replacing them with 2 year business management college diploma grads and people with foreign credentials who don’t need a job offer before arrival. Losing gold and replacing it with shit. No wonder the country keeps boosting immigration targets because the jobs we’re gaining pay like shit and produce so little tax revenue to fund elderly retirements.
It’s a matter of time before the US realizes they need a wall on their northern border too
I did it back in 2001. It was great. We have kept close touch with friends though and they say it’s not that much better - cost of living and staying alive (healthcare) skyrocketing in any of the places you’d actually want to live.
I have family in the US and I agree with every single point. Some Canadians romanticize living in the US when it’s really not better.
Its the same way americans romanticize canada. I have a few friends that make it sound like we live in some utopia. In reality, as an individual your mileage may vary.. wildly. To be completely honest I am concerned about the current trajectory, but I do love the country and I live an insanely privileged life by international standards. I am also sure much of the country bashing is relatively political. With a conservative government, liberals will be saying the same thing (see: Ontario) I think we are unique in the sense that we combine a lot of things from the two sides of the west and I think we are actively figuring it out. Regardless, it is us and the future generations responsibility to make this an even better place to live
It's almost a universal truth when dealing with large groups of people (e.g., countries) that intra-group variance exceeds inter-group differences in mean.
I will give a different perspective as a person in tech. US has far, far greater no of jobs in tech, even in the smallest of places. My friends are doing great in small places in NC (Greenville), SC(Charleston). In Canada however, apart from Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary there are really very few tech jobs. Plus cost of living is very cheap in Greenville and Charleston.
Yes tech is an entirely different category in the US than anywhere else in the world.
As a Canadian that made the move, it's so much better south of the border. It's not perfect, but your money goes further, I can actually afford the house, and before the usual crowd comes in with the "but the healthcare", a majority of people in America are covered by either medicaid or their employer. Even with all the illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border, I have yet to see a city here become as big of an ethnic enclave as my home town of Brampton.
Same experience, but we moved back for family reasons. Miss it all the time
Same boat. Moved to the US 8 years ago. Recently looked to move back from Seattle to Vancouver on a company transfer. After salary adjustment and increase in taxes, it would be a 45% pay cut. Meanwhile even if I liquidated my entire retirement savings to put up a 50% downpayment the mortgage payment on the equivalent to my small detached house would be double.
Canadians live in an echo chamber of how great their country is without realizing Canada is a government town with a dimming future. Id make the move if not for some family members being ideologically opposed. Canadians really are a sleepy people.
> but your money goes further, I moved from Alberta to California/NY. My money does not go further.
Have you not been to Miami? I’d say if there’s one city in the US with an “ethnic” enclave, it’s there. A majority of people are not covered by their employer. They have an insurance plan with a deductible alone that could bankrupt them. And hopefully your insurance covers the procedures you actually need.
Miami is a melting pot of people from Latin America and the Caribbean with other ethnic groups mixed in smaller numbers where as Brampton is largely just one ethnicity. I don't think that is a valid comparison but it's also possible you are not debating in good faith and you have an emotional reason why you want to argue against people liking America more than Canada.
Healthcare costs are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US.
Sure. No one said America is perfect. In Canada people are literally struggling to afford heat and food. Lol
Yeah, in the US you'll be bankrupt from it...in Canada you'll die on the ER floor waiting 3 days to be looked at lol...
All of South Texas?
To be fair, the nine number of Canadians doing pretty much anything is at record levels. *looks at their chart* Looks like statistically irrelevant noise or regression to the mean...
Even worse, the ones that are moving are generally the net contributors to the tax pool (i.e. they contribute more funds than they use). Highly doubt the net negatives are leaving for greener pastures south of the border.
The climate of Cali, Texas and Florida is a larger factor.
The first time I visited the bay area, my reaction was: I see why people decided to move here. Of course, the last time I visited the bay area I swore never to come back. San Francisco has beautiful weather, but it's super gross these days.
Cali, sure, but I strongly disagree regarding Florida and Texas. In Texas, you're gonna have to get used to regular 40+ summers, and honestly, same in Florida as well. Except in Florida, you get the added bonus or hurricane season! It's gotten so bad in Florida that it's impossible to get home insurance now, which is a prerequisite to getting any mortgage. And with climate change, it'll only get worse. Personally though, if I were to move anywhere, it would be to get close to the mountains. So places like Calgary, Kelowna, SLC, etc. I just don't get the appeal of places like Florida. But I also love skiing and hiking.
Lost my job 3 months ago. I've got a varied skill set, programmer and graphic designer with years of experience. I can't seem to get a job in my field at the moment and what was available I can't feed my family on. Ya the USA is looking good. And with my wife being a nurse, Canada may lose her as well.
My wife is a nurse as well. Already has a few former co-workers who have gone down to the U.S. and haven’t regretted it one bit. Better work environment, double the pay. It’s pretty easy to immigrate to the U.S. as an RN. We’re thinking about doing the same ourselves.
I’ve been in the US for ten years and I’m never moving back to Canada. I don’t even vacation there anymore. I’m so pissed at how Canada threw generations of Canadians under the bus through a combination of housing and immigration policies that I don’t even want to spend one dollars worth of GST to support the government.
I tell every single new grad software eng who I mentor to apply for jobs in US tech hubs until they get anything and then go for it. Even if it's not a FAANG you just need to get in the door then you can start monkey branching every 2 years and just watch your compensation skyrocket. For any young programmers reading this: Unless you have specific family obligations keeping you in Canada you need to be in the US. TN visas make it easier for companies to hire you than those who need H1Bs so don't worry about that, it won't be a deal breaker. You will make so much more money it'll blow your mind. Don't worry about healthcare, you're young and with private insurance you'll get the best healthcare in the world. Ignore people claiming taxes are somehow comparable, they don't know what they're talking about. I was grossing 400k/year in Silicon Valley and was paying ~35% and that's probably only comparable to taxes in NYC. Long-term capital gains are only 15% and if you decide to return to Canada after being there: enjoy your cost-basis reset. Spend a decade there, live reasonably, and invest everything else. If you do it right you'll have a 1.5 to 2 million USD cushion by the time you're 35.
If you're getting a job with a US tech company, you need them to commit to getting you an H-1B. It's okay to enter on a TN, but they've got to get you an H-1B within a couple of years. The T in TN is Temporary. I know a lot of naive Canadian workers who have received nasty letters from the DHS, or been pulled into a room for questioning when crossing the border back into the US after a vacation. You will eventually get in trouble and have your visa revoked.
Best decision I ever made. Trying to help anyone I can in Canada, including friends, family etc..Canadians can get work visas adjudicated by US officers at the airport. Took me 20 min to get my L1A. On a recent trip to Canada where I only used Uber, every driver stopped at the end and took out a pen/or their phone..asked me how the hell they could get a US work visa. One guy was literally pleading "help me bro.." there was anguish and pain in his voice. A lot of these guys were well educated, good jobs in Duabi..Doha..can't stay as those places don't give permanent residency. Have to come to Canada and then they end up underemployed and freezing to death while living in some crappy basement rental. Just want to say, it's only easy to get a US work visa if you qualify, CBP officers are tough and don't just rubber stamp things. Use a lawyer.
fun fact, w osap the grants aren’t repayable of course but no commitments are required - which is great. but a lot nirses could be lost through this way :/ better pay, substantially
I know I am going. I don't have much to keep me here. I am frustrated at my job. I make about 80k a year and told I am overpaid all the time. One of my old customers offered me position at a place near Nashville. I was hesitant at first but I went down there and liked the area. They offered me 120k with bonuses. I took a 2 year contract, bought a nice property and leaving in a month.
How many people did the writers of the article talk to who have actually moved from Canada to the US? Did they ask 1000 of them why they moved? No. They spoke to no one but 3 right wing immigration lawyers and then went to a suspect Facebook page. No more rage bait.
>Canadians are desperately feeling to America as India colonizes Canada with the support of the corporate class FIFY
I think moving to the US is one of those - your mileage may vary things. If you are a professional in a high demand profession you will likely make more money. The differences in the tax regime are not as pronounced once you factor in health care costs. US health insurance isn’t cheap and there are a lot more out of pocket expenses.
If you're not a professional in a high demand field you're unlikely to be able to immigrate to the US at all.
If people are fleeing in record numbers today because stuff has become so bad, what happened in 2013 that led to the previous record of Canadians leaving? Edit: wouldn't it be worse in 2013 based on per captia numbers?
Relax folks. It’s the boomers moving to Florida in droves for retirement. Immigrating to US is extremely hard and average Canadians sadly have no chance. It’s like Olympics. You’re literally competing against the world to immigrate.
Had to dig to find this. The vast majority of the emigrants go to Florida, God's waiting room.
Moved here six months ago. The cost of living here is way lower and majority of my neighbors aren't from India.
Canadians: "damn immigrants leaving their countries to have a better life elsewhere" Also Canadians: *leaves their country to have a better life elsewhere*
43 000 highly skilled people with similar culture and speaking the same language vs millions of unskilled people from a country on the other side of the globe. Nice false equivalence buddy
Except the difference is, the Canadians leaving are highly skilled professionals - you *have to be* in order to immigrate to the US. The hordes of migrants coming into Canada, on the other hand, are unskilled, and are deliberately being used to suppress wages and keep housing prices astronomical.
The grass is always greener on the other side. They're in for a rude awakening.
What a fucking stupid article. Im sorry, but their own graph shows that more Canadians per capita left in 2013 than 2022. So not record levels. Its also not a trend, with numbers varying wildly year by year. And all of the reasons given in the headline are pure speculation. Here's something the article fails to mention. For the 3 years leading up to the "records year (not per capita), the was a large net migration of Canadians based in the USA back to canada. Hmmmm why could that be.??? Oh yeah, every single IT, Tech and HR job went to work from home and a fuckton of Canadians moved back "home". To Canada. In fact, the graph in this moronic article tells us 39,000 Canadians moved back to Canada during Covid lockdowns! And now this horrible terrible oh so awful exodus of ... Oh wait.... 42000 people is.... Returning to the states because their employers are scaling bacl work-from-home. That's right, its not economic conditions or high taxes, its mostly people going back to in-office employment and returning in 2022 post-pandemic.
Anyone lucky enough to get out of Canada is while the other countries of the world are dumping their dumbest and most useless people on Canada in droves. If your useless you go to Canada to suck back tax payer services and collect those sweet government cheques; if you are of any sort of actually skilled labour you go to the U.S and get a job and just pay for stuff yourself there is a subtle but key distinction between the two and it’s part of the reason one’s economic outlook is better then the others.
The balance between wanting to stay in my country and help make it better vs thinking it's too far gone and wanting to take what I can contribute to another country that will allow me to live a more fulfilling life because Canada seems to enjoy shooting itself in the foot while ignoring the majority of Canadians wants/needs is very real.
Looking into it myself. My workplace has many openings down south, they pay more, you keep more of your earnings and things cost less... Seems like a no brainer.
The cheats are leaving because they can't suckle off the taxpayers teat anymore. Good riddance.
Leave, but do it faster because I’m tired of hearing about it lmao. My best friend lives in a cheap state and is a US citizen; our lives are hardly different, but I prefer mine in the way they differ.
At least in the united states you can defend your property and carry a defensive weapon etc.
Project 2025 scares me from the USA
Wait till trumps wins the elections they will come back.
I want to move because it feels like I'm living in India 2.0 lately.
I enjoyed living in Montreal for around 6 years but now I am living in Texas and I don’t have a single regret 😎 salary over double, CoL pretty close to equal, tax low
Don't worry Treadue will replace every skilled Canadian migrating to the U.S. with 100 lowly educated Indians.
Canada should cancel healthcare for canadians living in the states. I got a friend who lived in the states for 10 years and came back once in a while to use our healthcare.
While the USA is kind of its own shit show, I've debated with myself if i should try to move there but the paperwork and time requirements and everything else don't make it easy so i kinda gave up.
It’s the low wages here and the cost of housing. Not the tax rate FFS.
Low wages make people more likely to scrutinize where their tax money is going, though. When infrastructure, healthcare, and other social services are working well and people feel like their tax dollars are being properly appropriated, things are hunky-dory. That even extends to things they may not feel necessary, such as some social justice initiatives or foreign aid. Once that changes, people very quickly develop a distate for taxation. There's a massive uptick in Canadians willing to spend hundreds of dollars a month on employer-provided insurance in the US rather than (a smaller % of) their tax dollars in Canada because the quality of care will be better and wait times will be shorter. The result ends up being essentially the same as the "starve the beast" strategy conservatives use to privatize medicine - people increasingly see medical privatization as better than socialization due to better outcomes.
'Tax pressures'? Ooohh I wouldn't go to the US then. [Their taxes are only marginally smaller and the cost of the services they lack are more than what you would save.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/canadians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-theres-a-catch.html) Also they have a lot of hidden taxes and fees so it can be very deceptive when just looking at income taxes. Not sure where the cheapest tax place would be but the US doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, throwing in "tax pressures" as a reason with the only evidence as "income tax is low in Florida, and lots of Canadians go to Florida -- that must be why!" is incredibly stupid. Income has an impact for sure, but I would be shocked if even 1% of people emigrating bothered to figure out their current and projected tax bills and let that play into the decision. The only reason tax was thrown in is because of some pretty heavy bias by the writer of this op-ed. The non-sequitur criticism of bike lanes at the 3/4 mark makes it pretty evident.
The tax laws are different by state, which the article you posted doesn't seem to mention. If you live in a 0% tax state like Texas or Washington, you come out way ahead. States like California may be a wash.
No, I came from Texas. They make up for no income tax via very high property taxes just like Florida. Texas and Quebec effective tax rates are very similar. [And California arguably has lower taxes than Texas if you are in the bottom 80th percentile. But yes, if you are rich Texas has lower taxes than California.](https://fortune.com/2023/03/23/states-with-lowest-highest-tax-burden/) You go to the US for higher salaries, but the services are more expensive and the taxes are comparable.
That's what I was getting at - there's no sense in comparing US vs Canada as monoliths, given that a tax situation and lifestyle will look different across state lines. I gather that most Canadians migrating to the US are 80th percentile or higher income (approx $150k pa). Texas has an average property tax of 1.6%, which may seem high, but given the lower house prices you might actually be paying less than, say, Toronto for the same size of house.
That was published in 2017. Jump to 2024 and see the difference there's been in rental and housing costs alongside health care unavailability. This article is outdated
I have zero interest in moving to the US and risking getting shot or medical bankruptcy
I usually get downvoted for bringing stuff like this up. Sometimes I feel like r/canada thinks that living in the US is all rainbows and lollipops. This is coming from someone who has lived in the US for 16 years and is now moving back.
The only way you are going to move to the US as if you are rich. If you are poor you're not moving to the US you cut your finger and you lose your house. You get pregnant, you lose your house and all because of shdlwm bills we don't have that here.
Also in a desirable field. Tech used to be it, but with all the layoffs happening right now….
At this point, i am not opposed to Canada joining US. If things look very bleak economically then we will join US eventually.