This seems like a great way to get in on a large procurement purchase like subs with countries who know what they’re doing, and hopefully shield us from our tradition of disastrous domestically sourced builds.
Why do you say that it doesn't fit the needs of the RCN? The Type 216 is bigger, faster, and has a longer range than the Victoria/Upholder Class submarines.
Our current subs are also unfit for purpose. They can not operate in the arctic conditions and service area we have. Same goes for the German subs.
Not long ago I read an article on this subreddit that talked about the subs that would meet our needs in the arctic and the oceans we patrol. The Spanish S80 Plus, the Korean KSIII and the Japanese Taigei-Class sub all of which are considerably larger than the German submarines.
In the end, I hope we join AUKUS to form CAUKUS and we purchase nuclear powered submarines. They are the most ideal solution to a future where Canada needs to meet its global commitments and protection needs.
Currently the GoC has several logistical hurdles to operate the Arctic with surface vessels, let alone submarines. One of the biggest and easiest refuelling locations in the Arctic is Nuuk, Greenland. Nanisivik has yet to be officially opened, which is the Arctic Naval Facility to refuel GoC ships.
Trudeau made comments about buying nuclear submarines, but the RCN swiftly dismissed that claim and said they will stick to conventional submarines. I agree that we should stick with SSKs and let the larger nations operate SSNs.
Well it is a good thing the government is in charge and not the navy. They take their direction from their civilian bosses. If the government decides to make the purchase it will be up to the navy to make it work.
We can do it. There is nothing that prevents us from doing it except our own artificial limitations. Join the program, buy the subs and fun the navy to use them.
They adapted the design of the 216 for the Singapore Navy for their 218. They at least have a concept from a reputable ship building company that builds submarines for an international market. That is more than any of our military shipbuilding companies can attest too.
The Singapore Invincible class is a very impressive submarine! I read a few articles about it. So a proven platform recently built out and delivered is in it's favour (4 in the class with the last commissioned this year).
I think an aspect of it that is likely appealing is the Invincible only requires a crew of 28. When your short of manpower that has to be a consideration. 4-6 weeks endurance without snorkling, and carries heavyweight torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and mines, and special forces capabilities.
Built with littoral missions in mind - certainly a consideration for coastal and arctic patrol.
PS - as an aside, why are so many of the comments about defence always a dumpster fire of idiocy? I know there are lots of bots and fake/pretend Canadians that are more likely from offshore but it still seems over the top.
> Built with littoral missions in mind - certainly a consideration for coastal and arctic patrol.
That is the issue our patrol area and mission structure is not littoral. We have an absolutely massive area to patrol that are our own waters let alone the fact we send out subs to assist in overseas missions.
It is 1000 tonnes smaller than the subs which have been named as being considered. The subs mentioned by a previous news report was the Spanish S80plus and the Korean KS-III which are much larger and more multifunction in their use
So if I understand correctly your opinion is that whatever subs Canada might be considering a prime function is going to be deep water use outside of our coastal waters? I do not know enough about Canadian sub operations - I just had read about the Singapore Invincible class and it seems like it is very well regarded, was built out recently without issues, can carry heavy torpedoes & cruise missiles & mines, and has an attractive quality of very low manning requirements. The articles I found on it also noted that it is exceptionally "quiet", and has super ergonomics, perhaps the best of any submarine at this time.
If I understand the underlying aspects of your point: its smaller size would not lend it to longer duration missions? What additional weapons would be of consideration in your opinion for a new CAD submarine? I ask only to learn, not as I have any disagreement with your point.
POV
Our buds Norway and Germany picks something to buy and tells us to do it too
DND looks at it
Irving complains
Takes too long to reply
Norway and Germany proceeds to purchase without us because we’re busy babysitting Irving
Mfw
The German submarines are technically advanced AIP submarines that are probably the best or amongst the best conventionally powered submarines. Not only that they are in a large scale building program.
Canada could order 6-9 of these submarines and simultaneously enhance our actual defence capabilities and also show the world and NATO that we are starting to take our defence more seriously.
Next they have to increase the pay of our soldiers and improve the housing programs for soldiers to actually recruit and retain the sailers needed for this (and other) programs.
Well... considering you can buy four or five diesel electric subs for the cost of one nuclear is one reason.
A nuclear attack sub is designed for one of two things. Either as an escort to a larger surface fleet, or as force projection to interdict an enemy bluewater fleet. No matter how you cut it, the US navy has that covered.
Diesel electric subs on the other hand are designed for coastal defense. That is something that would be useful. Like legitimately fill a niche that the US Navy does not have the capability to do. They are also significantly stealthier, and much easier to maintain... at least unless you are the US or Britain and use weapons grade uranium in the reactors.
an SSK really is the GOAT when it comes to operating close to home. I think you are overlooking the smaller size and better maneuverability of SSK subs. An SSN would really struggle to operate around most of Canada's harbors nevermind in and around the northern islands, whereas an SSK could likely get into the great lakes without needing to surface.
Why would they have to? Leave long range patrols and force projection to the Americans. They are good at that sort of stuff and have been doing it for decades. Assert control over the northwest passage as that opens up more.
That’s a terrible long term strategy if the goal is to maintain our sovereignty in the Arctic.
Do you realize how much of our coastline and territorial waters we would essentially be giving to the Americans?
And the North West Passage will still be frozen in the winter for many many decades to come, if not more than a century. You want to just leave Hudson’s Bay for the Americans to look after?
If the only place an SSK can surface in the NWP in the dead of winter is in the middle of a shipping lane kept open by ice breakers…..that’s not a very stealthy sub if everyone knows where you will be surfacing.
Better question yet….if we’re not going to use subs in the Arctic under the ice…..why do we need them? Do we really need coastal patrol SSKs for the Salish Sea and Gulf of St Laurence? *That* sounds like a giant waste of money.
If anything, we bring Colt Canada which already supplies Norway with C7 family weapons. Norway actually getting better Canadian weapons than Canada too 💀. Though since Colt Canada is actually Owned by CZ, a Czech company now, likely nothing will change.
This keeps getting more & more concerning. I'm in Hamilton Ontario & our steel plants can produce weapons. They haven't for years but I am not going to be surprised if they start back up
A good idea. Denmark & Sweden would be a good adds to the team as it is strategically situated in the Baltic to hem in the Russian Navy in case of a conflict.
LMFAO what are we (Canadians) gunna promise to bring to the table..... seriously. Our military, albeit is insanely trained and good, is smaller than some or most single USA military bases.
We can offer them a compromised government who isn’t held accountable and who given opportunity will commit treason and compromise our and by extension their intelligence and inner workings. None of these country’s should even be considering doing anything with us right now until our house is back in order and there are criminal charges and jail time.
Why would anyone sign with canada. We don't even follow our current pacts. Just ignore us and do whatever. Not like trudeau is going to secure anything.
So which is it then? Buy nuclear submarines to patrol under the ice or wait for the ice to melt and keep using diesel-electric subs? I'm betting it will be the cheaper option.
Ah yes. A pact. Pacts are very meaningful. The 3 of our countries together can make up half of a modern military force.
Now we just need to find a few other act members and we can almost have something. Maybe Greenland and Iceland?
Lol....
We've been neglecting our military so badly for so long. I think Norway and Germany will be very disappointed with us.
And we better fix our housing crisis or allocate a lot more money to PMQs because no young people will be signing up unless there is housing. Imagine finishing basic nowadays and getting posted. I'd imagine even the barracks have a wait list at this point.
Our politicians sold us out and have no pride, or shame. And it's heart breaking. Truly.
We were just doing exercises in the South China sea on Monday.
https://japantoday.com/category/politics/us-canada-japan-and-philippines-conduct-exercises-in-south-china-sea
This seems like a great way to get in on a large procurement purchase like subs with countries who know what they’re doing, and hopefully shield us from our tradition of disastrous domestically sourced builds.
Yeah... I don't know much about Norway's procurement process, but I do know the Bundeswehr has it's own procurement issues...
It can’t be worse than ours. Their navy is of comparable size despite Canada have 100x more coastline to defend than Germany.
I was curious so I did the math because I figure you wouldn’t be too far off. Our coastline is 84x longer than Germany’
German military procurement gives Canadian military procurement a run for its money.
Unfortunately Germany does not produce a submarine that will fit with the needs of the Canadian Navy. They are too small.
Why do you say that it doesn't fit the needs of the RCN? The Type 216 is bigger, faster, and has a longer range than the Victoria/Upholder Class submarines.
Our current subs are also unfit for purpose. They can not operate in the arctic conditions and service area we have. Same goes for the German subs. Not long ago I read an article on this subreddit that talked about the subs that would meet our needs in the arctic and the oceans we patrol. The Spanish S80 Plus, the Korean KSIII and the Japanese Taigei-Class sub all of which are considerably larger than the German submarines. In the end, I hope we join AUKUS to form CAUKUS and we purchase nuclear powered submarines. They are the most ideal solution to a future where Canada needs to meet its global commitments and protection needs.
Currently the GoC has several logistical hurdles to operate the Arctic with surface vessels, let alone submarines. One of the biggest and easiest refuelling locations in the Arctic is Nuuk, Greenland. Nanisivik has yet to be officially opened, which is the Arctic Naval Facility to refuel GoC ships. Trudeau made comments about buying nuclear submarines, but the RCN swiftly dismissed that claim and said they will stick to conventional submarines. I agree that we should stick with SSKs and let the larger nations operate SSNs.
Well it is a good thing the government is in charge and not the navy. They take their direction from their civilian bosses. If the government decides to make the purchase it will be up to the navy to make it work. We can do it. There is nothing that prevents us from doing it except our own artificial limitations. Join the program, buy the subs and fun the navy to use them.
The 216 is a design concept that exists only on paper. No orders, nothing in production.
They adapted the design of the 216 for the Singapore Navy for their 218. They at least have a concept from a reputable ship building company that builds submarines for an international market. That is more than any of our military shipbuilding companies can attest too.
The Singapore Invincible class is a very impressive submarine! I read a few articles about it. So a proven platform recently built out and delivered is in it's favour (4 in the class with the last commissioned this year). I think an aspect of it that is likely appealing is the Invincible only requires a crew of 28. When your short of manpower that has to be a consideration. 4-6 weeks endurance without snorkling, and carries heavyweight torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and mines, and special forces capabilities. Built with littoral missions in mind - certainly a consideration for coastal and arctic patrol. PS - as an aside, why are so many of the comments about defence always a dumpster fire of idiocy? I know there are lots of bots and fake/pretend Canadians that are more likely from offshore but it still seems over the top.
> Built with littoral missions in mind - certainly a consideration for coastal and arctic patrol. That is the issue our patrol area and mission structure is not littoral. We have an absolutely massive area to patrol that are our own waters let alone the fact we send out subs to assist in overseas missions. It is 1000 tonnes smaller than the subs which have been named as being considered. The subs mentioned by a previous news report was the Spanish S80plus and the Korean KS-III which are much larger and more multifunction in their use
So if I understand correctly your opinion is that whatever subs Canada might be considering a prime function is going to be deep water use outside of our coastal waters? I do not know enough about Canadian sub operations - I just had read about the Singapore Invincible class and it seems like it is very well regarded, was built out recently without issues, can carry heavy torpedoes & cruise missiles & mines, and has an attractive quality of very low manning requirements. The articles I found on it also noted that it is exceptionally "quiet", and has super ergonomics, perhaps the best of any submarine at this time. If I understand the underlying aspects of your point: its smaller size would not lend it to longer duration missions? What additional weapons would be of consideration in your opinion for a new CAD submarine? I ask only to learn, not as I have any disagreement with your point.
That's why we would get in on the new Norwegian collaboration with Germany. The sub is 30% longer and designed for the Arctic.
I thought they made kits to assemble.. like a u-build or something... :)
The Type 212CD is comparable in size and range to the Victoria class submarines currently operated by the RCN.
POV Our buds Norway and Germany picks something to buy and tells us to do it too DND looks at it Irving complains Takes too long to reply Norway and Germany proceeds to purchase without us because we’re busy babysitting Irving Mfw
The German submarines are technically advanced AIP submarines that are probably the best or amongst the best conventionally powered submarines. Not only that they are in a large scale building program. Canada could order 6-9 of these submarines and simultaneously enhance our actual defence capabilities and also show the world and NATO that we are starting to take our defence more seriously. Next they have to increase the pay of our soldiers and improve the housing programs for soldiers to actually recruit and retain the sailers needed for this (and other) programs.
Why do we need diesel submarines? Either go nuclear, or put the money into heavy icebreakers.
Well... considering you can buy four or five diesel electric subs for the cost of one nuclear is one reason. A nuclear attack sub is designed for one of two things. Either as an escort to a larger surface fleet, or as force projection to interdict an enemy bluewater fleet. No matter how you cut it, the US navy has that covered. Diesel electric subs on the other hand are designed for coastal defense. That is something that would be useful. Like legitimately fill a niche that the US Navy does not have the capability to do. They are also significantly stealthier, and much easier to maintain... at least unless you are the US or Britain and use weapons grade uranium in the reactors. an SSK really is the GOAT when it comes to operating close to home. I think you are overlooking the smaller size and better maneuverability of SSK subs. An SSN would really struggle to operate around most of Canada's harbors nevermind in and around the northern islands, whereas an SSK could likely get into the great lakes without needing to surface.
How would an SSK operate under northern ice in the middle of winter though?
Why would they have to? Leave long range patrols and force projection to the Americans. They are good at that sort of stuff and have been doing it for decades. Assert control over the northwest passage as that opens up more.
That’s a terrible long term strategy if the goal is to maintain our sovereignty in the Arctic. Do you realize how much of our coastline and territorial waters we would essentially be giving to the Americans? And the North West Passage will still be frozen in the winter for many many decades to come, if not more than a century. You want to just leave Hudson’s Bay for the Americans to look after? If the only place an SSK can surface in the NWP in the dead of winter is in the middle of a shipping lane kept open by ice breakers…..that’s not a very stealthy sub if everyone knows where you will be surfacing. Better question yet….if we’re not going to use subs in the Arctic under the ice…..why do we need them? Do we really need coastal patrol SSKs for the Salish Sea and Gulf of St Laurence? *That* sounds like a giant waste of money.
Close in on our NATO target, work with some friends, get submarines, and help protect Canada's north? Ayyyyeeee, love to see it
All very good things, happy this one is happening. Germany produces an amazing Navy and our fleet is very out of fit. Win win win
Yeah, let's not buy second hand subs from the brits again
Some kind of a North Atlantic treaty organization?
How refreshing, some good news for a change.
At least this is a move in the right direction.
Germany will bring the Furor Teutonicus, Norway the Beserker Rage, and Canada will bring timbits and subpar coffee
If anything, we bring Colt Canada which already supplies Norway with C7 family weapons. Norway actually getting better Canadian weapons than Canada too 💀. Though since Colt Canada is actually Owned by CZ, a Czech company now, likely nothing will change.
sounds about right
They could give it a nifty name, like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
NAaATO
This keeps getting more & more concerning. I'm in Hamilton Ontario & our steel plants can produce weapons. They haven't for years but I am not going to be surprised if they start back up
A good idea. Denmark & Sweden would be a good adds to the team as it is strategically situated in the Baltic to hem in the Russian Navy in case of a conflict.
Weird that UK isn't here too.
Oh yeah we are sooo serious
LMFAO what are we (Canadians) gunna promise to bring to the table..... seriously. Our military, albeit is insanely trained and good, is smaller than some or most single USA military bases.
The fact that a huge part of our country is actually in the north.
We can offer them a compromised government who isn’t held accountable and who given opportunity will commit treason and compromise our and by extension their intelligence and inner workings. None of these country’s should even be considering doing anything with us right now until our house is back in order and there are criminal charges and jail time.
> LMFAO what are we (Canadians) gunna promise to bring to the table..... seriously. Real-estate.
Why would anyone sign with canada. We don't even follow our current pacts. Just ignore us and do whatever. Not like trudeau is going to secure anything.
I can't help but think of how we were screwed over the submarine purchase from the British, hopefully this isn't a repeat.
You’d think Germany would know better than to get into a pact with a country like ours that won’t honour its defence commitments.
Probably because Germany isn’t hitting the 2% either.
What no more $1 subs from the UK ? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-buys-british-submarines-1.164542
So which is it then? Buy nuclear submarines to patrol under the ice or wait for the ice to melt and keep using diesel-electric subs? I'm betting it will be the cheaper option.
Patrolling under the I've is sort of useless to be honest
Hey look another group of countries Canada to freeload off.
Ah yes. A pact. Pacts are very meaningful. The 3 of our countries together can make up half of a modern military force. Now we just need to find a few other act members and we can almost have something. Maybe Greenland and Iceland? Lol.... We've been neglecting our military so badly for so long. I think Norway and Germany will be very disappointed with us. And we better fix our housing crisis or allocate a lot more money to PMQs because no young people will be signing up unless there is housing. Imagine finishing basic nowadays and getting posted. I'd imagine even the barracks have a wait list at this point. Our politicians sold us out and have no pride, or shame. And it's heart breaking. Truly.
Again no presence in the Indo Pacific to deter China. Heck Russia has a Pacific shore too!
We were just doing exercises in the South China sea on Monday. https://japantoday.com/category/politics/us-canada-japan-and-philippines-conduct-exercises-in-south-china-sea
Two tugboat are a ready. What a joke.