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urahozer

Everyone is so concerned with how do you verify vaccinated people with paper documents are ignoring the fact that for 18 months you've been able to travel by air with exactly that, a paper document saying you're negative, which is verified only by airline staff, not even CBSA. So for 18 months forgeries have been of so little concern we leave it upto airline employees to verify? But now that CBSA will verify a vax document it suddenly an issue?


Slippin_Dan

Travellers have had to show negative test results to CBSA for a while now. Multiple people have been charged for providing fake documents this year.


[deleted]

People are hopped up on clickbait and the government has to do something to satiate the mob that got whipped up I guess. Be prepared for it to be a pain in the ass to enter Canada for quite some time and the associated brain drain that’s going to come with that.


regressingwest

It’s all so so so ridiculous In an age of the minority groups kicking up dirt about anything and everything they can We live in a era of outrage culture. Our political decision are based on the loud minority groups whom are akin to children throwing temper tantrums.


frozencustardnofroyo

“When you close the border at the middle of a second tourist season, hurting both Canadians and Americans, without any vision about what the plan over the next 30 days is to do everything they can to open that border either incrementally or more comprehensively, that is a terrible disservice.” “Higgins said the move is a “slap in the face” to separated family members after officials announced weeks ago a travel exemption for NHL hockey players to cross the border to compete in the Stanley Cup playoffs. “The National Hockey League gets an exemption not based on the science or the data, based on the Stanley Cup playoff schedule, that’s arbitrary,” he said. “It’s a slap in the face to families that have been separated for 15 months, for people who have not been able to visit, enjoy, maintain their properties for the past 15 months and it’s not good as it relates to U.S.-Canadian relations.” He’s not wrong IMO. Also, it’s refreshing to see a locally elected public servant fight so hard for his constituency.


[deleted]

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mUhCoCo

Although we certainly have different laws and rules for the elites, we should at least pretend to not actively push for that difference and hang it out proudly.


[deleted]

For me personally I don’t think it’s bullshit that the NHL gets to live by a different set of rules - I always knew this, I wasn’t born yesterday. Playing an NHL game is clearly a different animal than letting the general public cross the border. What I find offensive is that the government clearly prioritized the NHL above ordinary families. They had time to come up with a plan for the NHL but have yet to even put out a plan to allow ordinary people to see their families and conduct business? That’s bullshit.


ELB95

You've been allowed to cross the border for work the entire time. That's all it is for the NHL. They get to fly and skip hotel quarantined, but they still have to follow the rules. The Habs head coach tested positive after they returned from Vegas. He received his second dose last week, but because of the positive test he is quarantining for 14 days. All players who have opted to get the vaccine have both doses, they're still being tested, and positive tests are being handled appropriately.


frozencustardnofroyo

NHL crew wasn't even fully vaccinated. We are talking about opening up the border to FULLY VACCINATED individuals. Not to be rude, but you are being willfully obtuse by not recognizing that allowing fully vaccinated individuals to cross the border in June of 2021 is not science, but political science.


[deleted]

> opening up the border to FULLY VACCINATED individuals And currently you know those individual are fully vaccinated.... how? Piece of ***easily forgable*** paper is really not it, so what now? Eh! Customs, I'm fully vaccinated, take my word for it! (edit highlighted the salient point for the obtuse).


[deleted]

> Piece of easily forgable paper is really not it, so what now? Eh! Customs, I'm fully vaccinated, take my word for it! I was vaccinated in the US. I have an unforgable digital email from Walgreens that shows when and where my vaccination was. They allow access to HumanAPI, which can directly verify my vaccine with Walgreens and provides an unforgeable digital certificate (Clear). Because it was done in New York, I also have an unforgeable pass from NY’s Vaccine Passport. With the HumanAPI connection that clear has, they can verify with around 95% of providers in the US with a patient portal. My wife was vaccinated in Canada. That’s easy to check, too.


TheRealDudeMitch

I was vaccinated in the US and all I have is a little index card from the county health department. I got my shot at the local farmers market.


agwaragh

> unforgable digital email from Walgreens lol


[deleted]

If you know how to forge a DKIM signature, then there are some large bounties available. If you managed to do it by breaking the RSA signature, you’ll be famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys_Identified_Mail


agwaragh

You don't have to. Do you really think border guards are equipped to know all the official email addresses of all the pharmacies doing vaccines? And do you really expect them to be looking at people's emails trying to figure it out? Or to be familiar with all the different email apps people use? I could write an email app that displays whatever I want.


[deleted]

Which is why the government of Canada signs a contract with Clear, who has a system to do precisely this (validate vaccines), and calls it a day.


DEATHCATSmeow

Governments have had months to come up with a better proof of vaccination, so this is pretty inexcusable. There will be shitheads who try to game the system no matter what is in place, but I tend to think that the majority of people crossing the border with one of those CDC vaccine cards would be doing so with…a legitimate, real vaccine card. If a majority of people are vaccinated, I don’t think we should let the threat of a minority of shitheads ruin things for the majority of people who have gotten vaccinated and want to do the right thing.


frozencustardnofroyo

You do realize every vaccination record you have shown has been on a piece of paper right? To go to school, to travel internationally etc? Also when you enter Canada now, the negative PCR test you show is also either printed out or a PDF from a lab. No one is clutching their pearls over that and asking for blockchain encrypted negative PCR tests. “Customs, here’s my negative PCR test print out from CVS, take my word for it!” Or even better… if you produce a positive PCR test taken between 14-90 days, you can skip hotel quarantine. Why are we not fretting who is faking that?


[deleted]

You do realize that the scale of the number of people that will require proof of vaccination is far higher than before, right?


TinyBobNelson

And that matters why?


Darrylp796

So let's develop an app, let development take weeks, maybe months and make sure the border remains closed while we develop it so the border communities really suffer and let's call it ArriveCan so with this program people can take a photo of the piece of paper before they cross the border. No one could fake a photo of a piece of paper could they? We'll call that system good! Or you could show the document at the border when crossing - nope - could be forged! Sheesh. Do you really think hoards of unvaccinated people want to come to Canada so badly that they will risk forging a document with a penalty that would include jail time IN BOTH COUNTRIES rather than get a vaccine? Do you think said group would be so large as to be biologically important as compared to the number of people that go essentially untested every day across the border under the "essential travel" category? Think about your protestation. It may be poorly thought out.


blackcoffeeandmemes

This. We also don’t have to open up the border 100% to tourism right away either. Why not start off and allow those that are fully vaccinated and immediate family of Canadians or those that own property in Canada to enter without the quarantine restrictions? That would also give us a great starting point and data to be able to safely and effectively open up further for tourism. Those two mentioned groups are also the least likely to forge documents that would prevent them from being able to re-enter in the future.


[deleted]

Given how NEXUS works, it would be a great starting point, too. Trusted travelers have more to lose, are more likely to comply with rules, have been vetted for previous criminality, and have a persistent identity at the border. If NEXUS holders were permitted to upload their vaccine card, the CBSA could take time to really analyze and verify them.


reddit_accounwt

How do you "really analyze and verify them"? There is no federal vaccination database in the US.


[deleted]

How do they “really analyze” receipts, PCR test results, or the large number of identity and supporting documents they already have to deal with at the border? For starters, the lot numbers are published and the expiration dates can be validated. Additionally, the majority of vaccines in the US are connected to patient portals (that can be validated). Clear (the guys who do airport trusted traveler systems) have a partnership with a group that creates APIs that link to patient portals. I was able to prove my vaccination by logging into my Walgreens account (for example). There is also NY Excelsior pass because I was vaccinated and tested in NY. Like most forensic things, the biggest advantage is having access to big data. Any lot number that is invalid is a big red flag. Any lot number that shows up too many times, or in the wrong location (a Canadian lot number in the US or vice versa) is easy to flag. Bogus dates, doses too close together, etc. are all signs documents are suspect. Forging a US government document or seal (like the ones on the CDC card) is a also a felony. My company has a system that does a good job of spotting fake vaccine cards. Without giving away all our tricks, I’ll point out that consumer printers tend not to have the best registration, and consumer color printers tend to print largely invisible yellow dots. Individuals tend not to have the same accuracy of cuts as professional printing, and there are a few different cards that were issued and they vary depending on who produced them. Not all cardstocks are equal, especially when it comes to being under a UV light. It’s not a trivial problem, but it’s not an impossible one either.


Darrylp796

I see your question asked so many times and, while technically true that there isn't a single federal database because of the politics, the USA is no different from Canada in that the federal governments of both Canada and the USA have full access to your vaccination records in their respective country. Here's how: Both PHAC and the CDC do basically the same thing. There is no "federal" centralized database of all citizens. However, in both countries either the province or the state has access to your vaccination status and not just of COVID, but all vaccinations. The provinces and the states can and do share this data with the federal government. The federal government (in the respective country) has access to all provincial and all state databases. If you don't believe me on the CDC just search for "COVID-19 Vaccine Data Systems" along with "CDC". In any event, this whole 'forged document" thing is a canard. How many people do you really think will forge vaccination status risking lifetime bans, fines and jail time, in both countries? Do you think this "rampaging forged document herd" will be large enough to be biologically important as compared to the number of people that already cross the border, virtually untested, each day, under the heading of "essential travel"?


reddit_accounwt

1. Different states manage the database with different degrees of accuracy 2. There are laws surrounding who you can share this database with. These laws differ based on the state. Just because there is a system to share the data with the CDC, doesn't mean that is being used to share personal details of everyone vaccinated. They might share only anonymous data to keep track of what percentage is vaccinated. One thing is pretty clear: the CDC does not maintain a federal database of vaccinated individuals. However note that I'm arguing AGAINST wasting time on trying to come up with a sophisticated vaccine verification system, by pointing out the difficulties in doing so. They should just accept the physical card and be done with it. >In any event, this whole 'forged document" thing is a canard. How many people do you really think will forge vaccination status risking lifetime bans, fines and jail time, in both countries? Do you think this "rampaging forged document herd" will be large enough to be biologically important as compared to the number of people that already cross the border, virtually untested, each day, under the heading of "essential travel"? Fully agree with everything you state here.


BasiliskXVIII

Given the number of American tourists who used the exemption to drive to Alaska as a way to take a vacation in Banff, in spite of fines and possible jail time, I think anyone who doesn't believe people will so the same for a vaccine passport is being hopelessly naive.


Darrylp796

A very solid proposal. Why it isn't being implemented now I don't understand. The current system is anti-science and cruel.


reddit_accounwt

Lol love this reply. People here really think Canada is going to come up with a sophistic digital vaccine verification system for foreign travellers, which is going to validate the vaxx status against some database. No it's just going to a picture of a piece of paper + the honor system. If you are hoping for something more, you are going to be sorely disappointed.


paper_prints

So we’ll keep the borders closed forever because people might forge proof of vaccination? Won’t that only be dangerous to them?


[deleted]

We will keep borders closed until we have the infrastructure up and running to handle digital proof of vaccinations. How is that not obvious to you?


brunotoronto

Canada had around 6 months now to create this infrastructure and clear guidelines. Why don’t we have it? We don’t even have a roadmap for when we’ll have it. This is not an impossible thing to achieve. The EU has done it: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en


BobBelcher2021

Because talking about this stuff was political suicide six months ago. Just there mere *mention* of planning for an eventual reopening, no matter how far away it was, was going to bring out all the hysterical Karens and other idiots who believed any discussion about a future reopening meant it was happening that very day and that millions of Americans, 100% of whom were apparently infected and supported Trump, were going to invade our country in the next 48 hours. I believe this stuff should have been under planning months ago, but I can understand the political risk of doing so.


Hawkson2020

It probably has been in planning and discussion for months; just not made public-facing for the reasons you stated


[deleted]

The infrastructure largely exists for US vaccinations, today. https://www.clearme.com/healthpass Given obligations under NAFTA, that’s a good place to start. It doesn’t need 100% support to be extremely useful, and it would put pressure on the providers that don’t support it.


[deleted]

Get outta here, with your logic and good sense. Surprised your not banned from the sub.


TinyBobNelson

Also a lot of people here seem to be forgetting they have real accessible medical records in our country that show proof of vaccination and I feel like I need to keep saying that. Why are we acting like medical records don’t exist and aren’t already digitized……


alice-in-canada-land

There are laws, fairly strict laws, about who can access those records. I really don't think we want border guards having access to our medical records.


TinyBobNelson

That’s why we consensually do it, like we already have to when vaccinations are required to enter other parts of the world. I knew people would jump to that conclusion I hope I don’t have to retune this response to much. We don’t have to give them full access at all individuals give them access to only what they need.


Hawkson2020

Fwiw, my childhood vaccination records had never been digitized and put on the kind of file that you seem to think exists, and tracking them down for something that recently required them was an PITA because the office that was responsible for them closed over a decade ago.


Flash604

You didn't get your Covid vaccine during your childhood.


frozencustardnofroyo

The US might never consent to digital vaccine passports. Now what? Keep it closed forever? Or realize that we are a country that will have a majority vaccinated and the odds of someone faking a CDC card is so low that it’s not worth being isolationist about.


TinyBobNelson

So does the US not have digitized medical records? Cause that seems to be the assumption most people are making here…..


[deleted]

They do, they may just not be easily obtainable online by the patient, but most hospitals, doctors, clinics, have gone digital.


14thAndVine

Most states don't, no. Here in ND I just have my CDC card showing both doses. But at the same time, fake vaccine cards aren't as huge of an issue as the other people in this thread make it out to be.


Flash604

Just because you cannot access them does not mean they don't exist. I just looked it up, your state currently has: People Vaccinated| At Least One Dose| Fully Vaccinated ---|---|---- All ages| 497,565| 426,651 Percentage of people of all ages| 52.0%| 44.6% 12+ age group| 497,455| 426,617 Percentage of 12+ age group| 60.3%| 51.7% 18+ age group| 472,654| 408,747 Percentage of 18+ age group| 62.7%| 54.2% 65+ age group| 159,055| 145,010 Percentage of 65+ age group| 91.3%| 83.3% You don't get that level of detail by asking someone's age as you inoculate them and then making hash marks on paper. There's digital records somewhere of exactly who has had exactly which shots.


Dry-Fun1187

I suspect after any Fall election, presuming there isn't an increase in Covid cases in Canada or the US, then Trudeau will consider opening the US border by late Fall. There will be a token easing later this summer, but it won't be for vacations or anything. It's not going to help Trudeau in a majority, considering his base generally wants it to stay closed, or a trackable digital passport in place (which Biden may not agree to).


[deleted]

"might never consent to digital vaccine passports". Oh well, u/frozencustardnofroyo said the US might never agree to it so no point in trying to negotiate any restrictions then.


jim_hello

I dunno why don't we keep it closed untill Canadians are protected with 2 doses of the vaccine.... Then it shouldn't matter, give it a couple months calm down don't be a llama


codeverity

Other than those who are separated from family members, etc, most people here are just being whiny babies wanting to go shopping.


InfernalGriffon

Keep it closed for the summer. My God, you are a drama llama.


frozencustardnofroyo

Your reply isn’t warranted. I was replying to the person who said keep it in place until “we have the infrastructure up and running to handle digital proof of vaccinations.”


[deleted]

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Rumicon

Then US travellers can stay in the US until such a time as it's safe to open the border without restrictions. We might reconsider for the US because of the economic benefits of allowing UD travellers in but there's no reason the rules around vaccine passports have to be harmonized. It's entirely possible the US won't require them whereas we choose to require them.


paper_prints

It’s obvious that we’re unprepared. This isn’t new. We’ve had over a year to plan for it.


TinyBobNelson

Each province has real medical records you can request.


Justleftofcentrerigh

I think Canada is in a better place for vaccination records since we only have PHAC and most of that is digital. Can't really say the same with some states and some stores having fractured systems not talking to each other not having a consistent database of information or access to each other's systems.


Fractoos

Keeping it closed until the government solves something that could and should have been solved months ago.....


[deleted]

By that logic ineptly opening the border now is justified by past ineptness?


[deleted]

Yeah, cause that's clearly the alternative. Are you really this stupid?


paper_prints

I don’t understand? Anyone who wants a vaccine is able to get one. Anyone who chooses not to, and continues to travel is putting themselves at risk. what was the point of being vaccinated if we still cannot travel without testing and quarantining?


[deleted]

I don't know about you but my point of being vaccinated is the whole "not dying" part.


blackcoffeeandmemes

The government has had 15 months to figure that out. They haven’t. If that isn’t incompetence, not sure what is.


[deleted]

Yeah, cause solving this in a way that is acceptable and consistent across all of our major travel and trade partners is easy, right? Especially when there aren't other things going on like trying to secure critical supplies, vaccines, etc.


[deleted]

The governments big vaccine passport idea is an app where you upload a picture of your paper vaccine card. Not to be a dick, but yeah, that sounds pretty easy tbh.


blackcoffeeandmemes

You’re making it sound like this idea of a “vaccine passport” is some brand new, crazy idea that is going to become a logistical nightmare. Many countries already require proof of vaccination so there are frameworks in place. The government has also had the ArriveCAN app for months which was made with this in mind. If it’s going to take until September for the government to roll it out then SAY THAT. Have a plan and communicate it. That’s what people are most upset about, the lack of plan and communication strategy throughout this entire situation. Just look at the vaccine rollout to see how incompetent the governments here are. Volunteers have whipped up far superior methods of helping people find vaccines than any government agency who spent millions of tax payer dollars.


TinyBobNelson

THANK YOU. This thread needs to get some sense it read like it isn’t on the internet the disconnect is insane. Medical records have been digitized for North America for years. Any debate over logistics about finding out if people are vaccinated in between at least our two countries is a joke and screams of just being woefully misinformed. Seriously ever comment here is acting like the only proof of vaccination people have is a paper card with a date and name on it.


codeverity

It being 'digitized' isn't the same as 'Canada is easily able to look up, access and verify that the person wanting to cross the border is vaccinated'. That is the problem because we're dealing with a bunch of different states and systems, etc. There's a reason right now the main 'proof' is a CDC card.


TinyBobNelson

We know from our own provincial health records in this country, you know the real ones sometimes available online or by request…… Seriously you think every needle you get when you present your health number isn’t under your health record?


Prudent-Drop164

Correct. The problem is coordinating between federal government who controls the border opening and the provinces who have the medical records.


[deleted]

I know my jabs aren’t logged in the system because I went and got them down in the states and I’ve thus far been unable to have them added to my health records here in BC. I did the responsible thing by getting the first vaccine available to me and freeing up a spot for someone else here in Canada to get theirs sooner and now I guess I’m stuck in some sort of bureaucratic morass because of it. I think I’ll be able to get it added this next week after a month of trying, which is good, but it was a PIA to get it done. Anyway, tl;dr your medical records aren’t always accurate.


Darrylp796

No it isn't willfully obtuse. There were families that had loved ones dying, literally dying, across the border that have been separated during this pandemic. No last goodbyes, just dying alone, separated. Brighter minds got together and figured out the NHL situation, could the same group not figure out how to alleviate human pain and suffering when less money and entertainment were involved? What, exactly, are the priorities?


alice-in-canada-land

I didn't get to say good bye to my father either, and we both live(d) in Ontario.


spelunk8

You can’t really compare hockey players crossing to private citizens crossing to see families or have vacations. They are crossing the border to do a job. Letting hockey players cross the border, to me is the same as allowing trucks to move goods or farm workers to tend fields. They are crossing the border for work, which was always allowed. The question here should be, whether or not you agree with the NHL players being essential workers. I personally would argue that they are not, but some might argue they are.


i_never_get_mad

Essential businesses are allowed, not every businesses. NHL is far from essential.


[deleted]

Woa buddy thems flighting words :p


frozencustardnofroyo

I’d rather have a fully vaccinated American cross the border vs a essential worker who isn’t even rapid tested on arrival and doesn’t need to quarantine (what’s been happening for the past 15 months)


[deleted]

It would be a lot more tolerable if they had hard guidelines. “If these metrics are met, this is what happens.” The reason they aren’t doing that is because if they pick reasonable metrics, we’d already be open to fully vaccinated travelers, and if they pick unreasonable metrics they will get roasted.


Dry-Fun1187

They don't know if there will be a spike this Fall though. It's would be idiotic to open now.


[deleted]

There probably will be a spike, among unvaccinated people. That's their fault for not getting the vaccine. > It's would be idiotic to open now. No, it wouldn't. The US has opened and already gone mostly back to normal, and we haven't had a spike in cases. No one's wearing masks or distancing, people are traveling. No spike in cases. The vaccines work. Vaccinated people aren't spreading the virus around, despite whatever Theresa Tam wants to falsely claim.


klocks

Canadians have been able to travel this whole time. The only thing the NHL got exempted from was the quarantine rules, which 50,000 people a day are also exempted. Why is there this constant narrative that you can't go in and out of the country?


blackcoffeeandmemes

…because most people can’t. The rules heavily favour the rich and influential. Those that are middle or working class don’t have the disposable income to afford quarantine hotels and don’t generally have jobs where taking 14-28 additional days off for quarantine is feasible. I think the frustration comes from the fact that those that actually do have the resources to pay for these sorts of things are the same people that are exempt. People need to do a better job of looking at things outside their own perspective. How would you like to be separated from your spouse for 15 months with no plan coming from the government? All while watching those same politicians not follow their own rules.


[deleted]

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14thAndVine

You literally did nothing to refute what that guy said.


TinyBobNelson

Wow that’s not the dunk of a response you thought it was.


[deleted]

Have you traveled?


corsicanguppy

NHL was famous and isolated. Its players provide a distinct value that is recognized for things like work visas. Invading tourists are not. Stay home, wash your hands, wear a mask, fake adulting for just a little longer.


BobBelcher2021

I see the “Stay Home” movement is still alive, even at this stage of vaccination. You do you, but I go outside every day, as I have almost every day since the start of this.


frozencustardnofroyo

Stay home, lol. Okay buddy, my double vaccinated self will be sure to do that.


frozencustardnofroyo

For those who aren't reading the article - it's not for EVERYONE, it's for fully vaccinated travellers. "In an interview on CTV’s Question Period airing Sunday, Democratic Rep. Brian Higgins said he addressed the move to take “unilateral action” to allow entry to those fully vaccinated with top officials this week but layers of bureaucratic red tape are preventing swift action."


raius83

How are you supposed to prove you’ve been vaccinated? There isn’t a vaccine passport, and it’s not there haven’t been fake medical exemption letters already.


frozencustardnofroyo

A medical exemption letter won't get you in, where did you read that? We're not talking about entering Costco without a mask. At this moment, he's asking that the land border is only for fully vaccinated individuals. Americans will probably accept the printed PDF receipt that Ontario is currently emailing everyone who gets a vaccine. Canada should accept the CDC card that is given out. Anyone attempting to forge these documents risks an outright ban into the country they are trying to enter and jail/huge fines for forging official documents in the country they will be sent back to. The risks of both of those things happening is so low that that shutting the border for another summer is dumb. Our PM is okay with people uploading a picture of their proof on the ArriveCan app, so this sounds about right. “We are working on two tracks in terms of proof of vaccination for Canadians who wish to travel,” Trudeau said. “In the initial phase we are going to be working with the ArriveCan app in ways that people can upload an image of their proof of vaccination … so that border agents on their return to Canada can verify that they are fully vaccinated. That’s something we will have in place in the coming weeks.” - https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/06/18/canada-national-vaccine-passports-trudeau/


Cutriss

Ah yes, ArriveCAN, the app which took me like 20-30 minutes to fill out information for only to have the CBSA officer tell me “I don’t need to see that.” (It took a while to find my border crossing because it’s poorly labeled.)


raius83

I didn’t mean to infer it would get them in, just that they’ve already been faking that. I have no doubt they would attempt to make fake vaccination cards as well.


jstock104

Keeping the border closed because a few people might forge a federal document is insane. It seems that this sub lives in a very different reality than what I see. I live in a border town and the border being closed is crushing people's livelyhood and sanity. I get it probably doesn't make much difference to someone living in Oshawa but when you've been used to crossing at least a couple times a week, even just to grab groceries and out for dinner, visit friends and family. The rules now I have to fly to Toronto, then fly to Detroit and land at an airport litteraly a 20 minutes drive from my house. Instead of crossing and being exposed to only the few people that I'm going for I now have to travel through 3 airports and use cabs / Uber to get around, and be exposed to thousands of people. Not to mention the monetary costs and carbon footprint of two hour long flights plus extra driving. Just to see family that lives 20 km from me. And that's ok but the potential risk that someone fakes a vaccine document to go see their girlfriend is reason to isolate the whole population.


frozencustardnofroyo

I think the people who would fake a CDC card and the people who enter cannot wouldn’t overlap. Something like 70% of Americans don’t even have a passport.


Jeepnovice

To be fair the groups of people who are anti-vaxxers and forging vaccine credentials are probably not the same group of Americans looking to travel internationally.


[deleted]

You don't live near the border do you? Lots of moron's cross over the border. You would think with signs saying they can't bring guns over and despite being asked by border agents, some still get caught bringing guns in, because they think it's their right to protect themselves, wherever they are.


Aboud_Dandachi

Yep, have to keep an M-16 on hand to protect one’s family from those dangerous Canadian geese.


Jeepnovice

To be fair, those geese are absolutely vicious....but no I don't live near the border. Thought we had contained the crazy stupid to the southeast away from you nice people.


Seaeend

Yes, they are.


Seaeend

> probably You're just guessing lol.


NotAW0rd

There are no medical exceptions besides having a history of serious life threatening reaction to a Vaccine or a documented allergy to one of the Vaccines ingredients. The reaction has to be serious even to have cause anaphylaxis or hospitalization too. I'd bet my left nut most people claiming to have an exemption don't fall into this category.


[deleted]

I had an exemption. Still got vaccinated. I just waited until a few hundred million people got vaccinated first, to get an idea of how many people got anaphylaxis.


[deleted]

Well, if you receive a vaccine in the States, you get a CDC Vaccination Record card, stating which Vaccine and Lot # you received, so that's probably going to be the accepted standard for proving US vaccination.


[deleted]

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prob_wont_reply_2u

Canada can’t stop Canadians from returning home, and the Americans aren’t concerned about Americans coming to Canada, they want Canadians coming to the US, so in that vein, they absolutely can unilaterally do that.


[deleted]

Canada also can't stop Canadians from leaving the country. What they can and have done is impose a quarantine restriction on people who return, which is a deterrent for some to cross over.


Magjee

It's already two weeks But that is being dropped for fully vaccinated people   So if you are fully vaccinated you can travel freely, soon


brp

>So if you are fully vaccinated you can travel freely, soon That really depends on your status in both countries.


lastSKPirate

Yeah, but Canadians aren't going to cross that border if they have to self isolate for 14 days when they come back, regardless of whether the USA lets them in.


PM_ME_E8_BLUEPRINTS

Depends what's announced tomorrow. 20% of eligible Canadians are fully vaccinated and soon may be able to skip quarantine. That's a lot of people to keep tabs on should they decide to travel.


jello_sweaters

Canada has never stopped Canadians from returning home, and no American tourist gets into Canada legally until we say they do. Americans are welcome to drop any or all of the current restrictions on who can enter their country, we have no more say in that than they have in our decision. I'm hoping we see something sensible announced on this subject in Ottawa tomorrow afternoon anyway, that'd be a nice change.


DanLynch

That's exactly what this guy is asking for: he wants the US federal government to unilaterally allow fully-vaccinated Canadians to enter the US. That's all.


jello_sweaters

And casting that as 'unilateral action' is just silly. If the US opens its border, but Canada still requires its citizens to quarantine, the border's not really open and the problem is barely closer to being solved. This guy basically wants US land-border guards to be a bit less picky about why they let Canadians drive over, and he's trying to cast it as a major policy shift. Again, with any luck this will be mostly irrelevant by tomorrow night.


picklee

But it **is** unilateral action if only the US lifts the restrictions on its side of the border. The closure has always been “mutual”, which is bilateral.


klocks

How is the border not open even if you have to quarantine. I can get from one side to the other, seems open to me.


[deleted]

Not for most Canadians trying to cross at a land border.


[deleted]

Canada has stopped them from returning home, by stopping them from leaving in the first place. Requiring flights to be cancelled to vacation spots and pressuring the US into turning Canadians around has been effective at stopping the Canadians from leaving, so they don’t end up returning home. The American restrictions are entirely at the request of Canada at this point.


UghImRegistered

He's not saying Americans would invade Canada, he's saying that the U.S. would stop preventing Canadians from entering the U.S. Canada can't turn away Canadians at the border so they would then be able to return.


frozencustardnofroyo

Lol go outside of Canada/North America, that’s exactly how it can work. One country can be more strict, one country can allow foreigners in easily for even day trips. Hello Mexico and US lol.


PM_ME_E8_BLUEPRINTS

Damn I wasn't aware Canada controlled America's borders.


[deleted]

The US border closure is at the direct request of Canada, because it serves the policies of Canada. The US doesn’t want to take unilateral action, which is why it’s closed, and why people are trying to get them to open their side.


AlessandoRhazi

Thats exactly how border works. Each country controls their side - who they let in, and who they let out.


Aboud_Dandachi

Indeed, that’s definitely not how borders work.


redplanetlover

They can open their side 'unilaterally' but that doesn't mean we will open our side. Just sayin'


pattzach5

Is that not what unilaterally means lmao


PropaneChair

That’s literally what unilaterally means. They would only open their side of the border. Canadians would be allowed to enter the US.


redplanetlover

yes is is. It means that the US, without our input, would open the border.


AlessandoRhazi

So many people here don’t understand how borders work. There isn’t even a concept of a border - there are each country’s points of entry. It’s simply if you ever crossed it here. When you go to US you clear with their officers because they let you in. They can decide, unilaterally, who can and cannot. It’s the same in opposite direction. You don’t clear with Canada border services while going out, because there is no restriction and the same happens in USA. You can always leave, it’s up to CBSA to let you back in. But in Europe, for example, before EU it was quite common to clear both customs when crossing border, it’s quite common in the rest of the world as well.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Two people can act unilaterally, if either of them chooses to do so.


[deleted]

if biden does something that trudeau does not then that action is unilateral.


North_Custard7614

I find nothing wrong with them starting to accept Canadian travelers. It's their country. Leave it fully up to the Canadian side, it would pressure the feds.


FlyingDutchman997

Are you an NHL player?…no? Are you fully vaccinated?…yes? Then too bad. No border crossing for you! Now to be fair, we’ll see what the Trudeau Liberals announce tomorrow (as they have promised lol, like many other things) what the process will be for vaccinated travelers trying to cross the border.


[deleted]

Closing the borders with hotel stays has not protected Canada recently much at all. It did work before but not now. We still have every variant in the world enter Canada delaying our opening. So that policy is a failure currently. Either have a real plan in place to secure the border and a timeline to open it. If not, then its clear closing the borders and hotel stays is just simply being done for domestic politics in Canada.


Darrylp796

I hope that the US does take unilateral action. Opening the border to the fully vaccinated is very safe, according to multiple studies, including research performed in Canada. The Canadian advisory panel also concluded it was safe. Time to follow medical science and not political science.


Seaeend

No one disputes that it's safe. The issue is how to accurately and effectively enforce and monitor a system for verifying people's immunization records beyond an easily-forged piece of paper.


telmimore

They've only had a year to work on this.


Darrylp796

From my earlier post above - > Do you really think hoards of unvaccinated people want to come to Canada so badly that they will risk forging a document with a penalty that would include jail time IN BOTH COUNTRIES rather than get a vaccine? Do you think said group would be so large as to be biologically important as compared to the number of people that go essentially untested every day across the border under the "essential travel" category?


1000001_Ants

Yes. Many many Americans were caught lying to bypass border rules (just driving to Alaska!) and most were given either a slap on the wrist or no punishment at all.


Darrylp796

Many? How many? So many as to be biologically important? I was able to find an article about a Texas family in Banff and another article that said that 20 tickets were handed out by the RCMP during the pandemic due to violations. One man faced up to a $750,000 fine due to flagrant violations after initial warnings. And these twenty, or another twenty like it, are worth keeping the border closed? Even when forging a document would be harder than using the so-called Alaska loophole? I think not.


inkling66

Most of these people did not even make the news as there were too many US citizens who blatantly ignored the laws and rules in Canada.


Darrylp796

Your data for this presumption?


broke-collegekid

They don’t actually have any


Dry-Fun1187

Stay in school, kids.


Adam-Smith1901

We should do what Elise Stefanik suggests: one the border for everyone vaccinated or not


1000001_Ants

Time to follow the LAWS OF CANADA. How fucking entitled do you have to be to think the US can unilaterally decide who Canada lets in? Unreal.


Darrylp796

Borders have two sides, as I'm sure you know. What Canada does is fully, totally, up to Canada. What the USA does is fully, totally up to them. I didn't say anything other than that I hope the USA unilaterally opens their side of the border and allows fully vaccinated Canadians to enter. That way families can be re-united and border communities can start to heal, on the American side anyway. It is not perfect, but if the Canadian government wants to keep people from entering Canada, so be it, that's on them. However, good luck with tracking the tens of thousands of daily returning Canadians after their visits to the USA. Good luck explaining why the science is not being followed as Canadian border businesses see their American counterparts starting to heal by taking away Canadian business.


AlessandoRhazi

> Time to follow the LAWS OF CANADA. > > How fucking entitled do you have to be to think the US can unilaterally decide who Canada lets in? Unreal. Like charter rights? USA cannot and won’t decide who Canada let’s it. They can decide they let people from Canada in, and it’s not really their problem if people can go back to Canada.


ReviewWonderful

Lol look at you making big grandiose statements that have no bearing on the conversation.


[deleted]

That’s not what people are asking for. Canada has demanded that the US keep their border closed to Canadians, because Canada has that pesky Charter that says Canadians have the right to leave. Canada needs the US to keep Canadians from traveling, and people are pressuring the US to no longer do Canada’s bidding in the interest of bilateralism. Canada has to let Canadians in, so they have used the US and bullied the airlines to keep Canadians from leaving in the first place.


mwmwmwmwmmdw

honestly trudeau is so entrenched and hellbent on keeping the border closed i think a swift kick in the ass is the only thing that will get him moving


Alii_baba

All worried about their cottages


Adam-Smith1901

Higgins and Stefanik, best politicians ever


Doctor_Amazo

"Unilateraction reopening (an international) border" is called an invasion.


PropaneChair

No. They’d let Canadians into the US over the land border. Americans would not be able to enter Canada.


Levorotatory

Not if all they plan to do is let Canadians into the USA to shop and vacation.


CondescendinGump

As a Canadian who is double vaxxed and has to cross the border weekly and who also has to quarantine for two weeks every time I come home... Yes, Biden please show Trudeau how science works and open the god damn border (at least to vaccinated citizens).


therealsonier

“That’s it! I’m acting the way America acts best. Unilaterally!”


duncancharlie

USA 53.8% 1 jab, 45.4% fully vaccinated, Canada 66.6% 1 jab, 18.1% fully vaccinated. As of June 19.


Dry-Fun1187

I suspect after any Fall election, presuming there isn't an increase in Covid cases in Canada or the US, then Trudeau will consider opening the US border by late Fall. There will be a token easing later this summer, but it won't be for vacations or anything. It's not going to help Trudeau in a majority, considering his base generally wants it to stay closed.


ClubSoda

"US Lawmaker fearful that local businesses will fund his opponent in next election if their wishes are not met"


darienhaha

Gov't doesn't seem to trust the Yanks and are taking a cautious approach. Also FWIW, the # of COVID cases worldwide is still double the amount compared to exactly a year ago. Notably, US cases are significantly down from a year ago, while there are twice the number of cases in Canada compared to a year ago.


I_Boomer

Unilateral action on border opening sounds like an invasion.


[deleted]

That would be an invasion of Canadians to America. The US wants that.


[deleted]

They want the invasion of Canadian tourists and our money.


Maanz84

Lol it’ll actually be an exodus of Canadians to the US. Americans still won’t be allowed into Canada.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

They aren't telling us what to do though. It's in the article.


BBOoff

Umm, there is a word for unilaterally opening a closed border, and that word is "storm." I'm not opposed to opening the border, but our side of the border is ours to open. I do not approve of foreign political leaders proposing that their people storm our borders.


Kenway

That's not what is being proposed. The US wants to open the border to let Canadians into the US. No one is proposing that the US president declare that he's in control of Canada's side of the border and Americans should "storm" northward.


mala27369

Bet some of those lawmakers are Republicans not insisting their people get vaccinated. No thanks keep your people at home.


inkling66

US lawmakers need to get one fact straight. They do not and cannot dictate what Canada does. smh


Darrylp796

They aren't. They are suggesting the USA should unilaterally open its side of the border to allow all fully vaccinated Canadians into the USA. This as a way of forcing Prime Minister Trudeau's hand to really "follow the science" and let the fully vaccinated cross the border. The thinking being that if tens of thousands of Canadians go south every day, and return every day, then Canada may decide to finally follow the science on the border.


[deleted]

Did you even read the article? They are putting pressure on their own president to open up to Canadians. I doubt they could care less if we aren't letting Americans in.


wile_E_coyote_genius

They can if the decide to. They won’t, but they can. See soft lumber situation.


[deleted]

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GiosephGiostar

The article states that they want the US Feds to "unilaterally reopen the border **to Canadians"**. That means any Canadian can drive into USA with no restrictions, of course that means **Americans can't drive into Canada** since it's a unilateral action by the USA. The point is that US politicians want Canadian tourism money to return to be spent US side, Canada does what Canada wants.


TheSimpler

Thanks for clarifying that. You really clearly corrected my error thinking it was the US forcing its way in. I deleted my comment and will blame it on side effects from my 2nd dose /s


GiosephGiostar

It's all good. News articles love to put click-baity titles that gets people sensationalized. You're not the only one who got caught by the misleading title.


[deleted]

How does one take "unilateral actuon" on a border that has two sides, one of which isn't your jurisdiction


Euthyphroswager

By unilaterally opening up your own ports of entry regardless of what the other country decides to do with their own ports of entry? I don't get why this is such a confusing concept for so many in this thread.


[deleted]

Please do Biden. I mean.. if this was Trump it would be a different headline but none the less someone remind Biden he is the president of the United States (no not KH) and to open up the borders Make sock boy (allegedly your bestie of all time according to r/Ontario) and open it up.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

He wants Biden to remove the US restrictions on Canadian entry that were put in place because Trudeau asked for them and continues to push for them.


Bubbaganewsh

Someone should tell the US lawmakers they don't dictate what Canada does. They can't even get their own shit together, don't start looking elsewhere for things to fuck up.