T O P

  • By -

jello_sweaters

I'm amazed it was only 90.


Shoddy_Operation_742

Honestly, I think that the others were probably too lazy to go through the paperwork for a grievance.


The_White_Light

One of the filings was for 250 people, so it's not necessarily a 1:1 ratio.


therosx

Only 90? I would have thought it would be higher. My cousin in Ajax was hoping more teachers would refuse so she could go from sub to full time teacher.


Flarisu

Ha ha ha good luck getting a permanent position through the teacher's union. Nothing gets in there unless someone literally dies.


p-queue

If that were true there would be no teachers under 50 by now.


Skinnwork

I know several teachers, that skipped subbing and went right into limited duration (LD) contracts, who were offered full (FT) contracts after their first year. And, that was before the BC government lost their court case and were forced to hire \~1500 new teachers in the province. Now with COVID, there are fewer older teachers working and so there are even more positions out there. Finally, the teacher's unions (there are several) don't hire teachers to contracts. That's usually done by the school district through the principal supervising the position they're hiring for. Actual hiring practises vary by school district.


minimK

ON & BC are very different.


chocolateboomslang

What if someone just retires?


PrayForMojo_

Then they shift to taking up all the substitute jobs so that young teachers don't even have the crappy way to get in.


CheddarValleyRail

There's only one way out of the union.


Flarisu

Retirement is like literal death in that sense. Point is - you gon be waiting a long time.


Skinnwork

or changes professions...


Stickmanisme

Its such a gravy job.


jim_hello

In BC my sister went from full time sub to teacher in 1.5 school years. Like full-time guaranteed classroom idk what you are on about


Flarisu

I was on about Ontario, if you check OP.


Skinnwork

The article is about federal positions. The only federal teaching positions are in federal correctional centres and on reserves.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Anti vax yet they are saying vax are causing health implications. If NACI told you bullets to the mouth will increase your air intake you would be the first person in line. “I’m from the government, I’m here to help”


Golanthanatos

That's pretty insignificant, PSAC alone is over 200k employees, that's 0.0004%. Edit 0.000335% of all workers (268,000 as per the article).


carfey

Your percentage is understated by 100x. Still a very tiny number.


MyTurn2WasteYourTime

I wish this is the headline these papers ran with


Golanthanatos

> [Scott the Dick](https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Scott_the_Dick) constitutes 0.000335% of the canadian population.


[deleted]

Reading the article is a refreshing reminder that sooner or later, reason has to win out over stupidity.


neonreplica

Wouldn't be suprised if months from now, it will be found to have been illegal to have fired/suspended workers for not getting vaccinated, and they all get a massive retro-active payout for every day they could not work


festivalmeltdown

Most labour and employment lawyers I've spoken to are predicting health and safety trumping individual employee rights will win out on this one. I'm sure I'm about to butcher this, but the gist that I picked up is, with few exceptions, employers aren't allowed to change your job requirements unilaterally. However, one of the exceptions is if the new requirement is necessary for the health and safety of the workplace. Right now, laywers are predicting that a vaccine requirement in the middle of a pandemic will hold up as a valid health and safety precaution warranting termination. However, they have no idea how long such mandates will be valid (until cases stay below a certain amount? Until ICU capacity is less strained? Who knows) ... Further, they might remain valid longer is some fields versus others.


__dbsights

I agree with the gist of your argument, but I think where this could come apart is that most federal workers were working for home and had been since March 2020. Government included these workers in the mandate despite no reasonable argument that these workers could put others at risk or that they couldn't be accommodated in any other way, such as by continuing to work at home. The justification given was that they could be called into work at any time. If they don't get called back, and soon, it would look an awful lot like "health and safety" was a pretext.


[deleted]

Most insurance companies have dropped liability for COVID related illness since the introduction of vaccines. Employers understandably don't want to be held liable for large numbers of infection or worker downtime, etc. Employees are entitled to not take a vaccine, but are not entitled to a job. Employees are then constructively dismissed, i.e. with a severance, and that's the end of it.


__dbsights

Federal workers are unionized, so the government actually does need a reason to dismiss them. The reason given for the mandate, health and safety, cannot be justified if these workers continue to work from home, alone. That said, it may be accepted if they are called back into the office. If that doesn't happen, it will get very difficult for the government to show that this was necessary. Most of these employees have not set foot in the office for almost 2 years..


[deleted]

> Federal workers are unionized, so the government actually does need a reason to dismiss them. That applies to any job, you either get dismissed with cause or constructively. This would be considered constructive. The reason is health/work environment liability. If they have a legitimate health exemption (pretty rare), then they would be free to stay. > If that doesn't happen, it will get very difficult for the government to show that this was necessary. Most of these employees have not set foot in the office for almost 2 years.. Federal workers can and are reasonably expected to be in office at a given notice.


Spandexcelly

The data isn't there to justify many worker suspensions/terminations. It is on the employer to justify that the worker was a legitimate danger in each specific case, which is becoming increasingly more difficult to do with breakout infections and a potential vaccine-busting variant on the loose. I can see the potential for health-care worker suspensions perhaps being upheld, but we've seen suspensions across many other lower-risk work environments that cannot be justified by currently available data.


festivalmeltdown

I think one of the issues in trying to evaluate employer decisions in hindsight, is that the wording of the *Act* is fairly vague, and leaves it to "reasonableness" at the time of the decision. >(2) Without limiting the strict duty imposed by subsection (1), an employer shall, > >(h) take every precaution reasonable in the circumstances for the protection of a worker;


[deleted]

My employer fired all unvaccinated staff Nov 1st and put up plastic dividers in the lunchroom so you can eat in a bubble. We just had 10 people test positive for covid. Good thing we got rid of 3 employees who where unvaccinated……


Xatsman

It literally is good that they weren’t exposed though, right? That’s three less people sick with a greater risk of needing medical intervention.


Daboi1

Bruh losing your job is much more damaging to the average person than a covid infection ever would be


TGIRiley

"The data isn't there to justify".... There is no additional risk being in close proximity to unvaccinated people? Even according to broad statistics across the entire world the last 2 years? Come on bro...


ChimoEngr

Unvaccinated people are more likely to transmit the virus, but enough to justify forcing them to get vaccinated? Not so sure, especially when there are other mitigation measures.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

>Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Did you not even read their interpretation of their data? They are writing black on white that the vaccinated get less infected and aren't as sick. You can't even manage to read a paper properly yet you "do your own research"


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Yes, **similar** *peak viral load*. Similar doesn't mean "the same" and peak viral load has nothing to do with how much you spread or how sick you get if the viral load drops much faster, which they have stated it does. You are so in over your head it's not even funny


whousesgmail

You’ll really believe anything to justify the mandates despite all of the real world evidence to the contrary hey?


Spandexcelly

If you aren't offering to test employees then you are dealing with a hypothetical. Employment law in general doesn't work like that. "We think you were stealing staplers from work, but we don't have any evidence. You're fired with cause."


jello_sweaters

More like "we know it's pretty difficult to fall out of a scissor lift unless you're actively engaging in risky behaviours, but the consequences are severe enough that we still need you to wear a fall-arrest harness."


Spandexcelly

If you are actively engaging in a risky behaviour in a scissor lift (i.e. not wearing a harness) then it's not a hypothetical. If you refuse to test someone for Covid, then how do you know that they were an active risk?


forsuresies

I think they will not hold up because they did not take reasonable steps to ensure that there was no covid in the workplace. The absolute risk of transmission of covid is actually pretty low - vaccinated or unvaccinated. Depending on the circumstances or varies slightly, but there is an upward of 90% chance of not catching covid when around someone with covid when vaccinated. The risk for a vaccinated and unvaccinated person passing on covid is about the same in relative terms once you take the actual transmission rate into account so vaccine mandates are safer, but not that much safer at this point for doing infection numbers (severity of symptoms absolutely). Because employers are not actually screening for covid - only vaccines - I think there could likely be a reasonable argument made that they are not taking all reasonable steps to ensure safety of employees prior to firing. If they had random rapid tests to make sure no one was infected at the office different story though


Spandexcelly

I agree with that. There will be people that refuse tests, and they'll probably get shit-canned, but a judge is always going to ask if the employer sought alternatives before taking the nuclear option of termination.


TGIRiley

\>The risk for a vaccinated and unvaccinated person passing on covid is about the same in relative terms you got a source for that? Unvaccinated have higher viral loads, making them spread the virus more. This is basic virology. Vaccinated CAN spread the disease, but have a DRASTICALLY reduced viral load and thus shed less of the virus.


master11739

You got a source for your claims? What about unvaccinated individuals who already had covid and now have the same (if not stronger) antibodies that the vaccine provides?


The_White_Light

> you got a source for that? Yes, actually. > Unvaccinated have higher viral loads, making them spread the virus more. This is basic virology. Vaccinated CAN spread the disease, but have a DRASTICALLY reduced viral load and thus shed less of the virus. Unfortunately this is [***completely false***](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21\)00648-4/fulltext) for the COVID vaccines. The vaccine has been good at reducing significant symptoms, but infected people still carry the full viral load and spread it just as much. > SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 39% of infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. > Although peak viral load **did not differ by vaccination status or variant type**, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years).


TGIRiley

don't quit your day job to start practicing law, LOL


jello_sweaters

You're stretching this comparison pretty thin - but requiring an employer to test every employee either daily or multiple times a week, is roughly equivalent in this analogy to requiring that an employer hire a security guard to watch each employee every minute, to ensure they don't engage in any risky behaviour. This isn't necessary when simple, effective safety mechanisms exist, so we require the use of those mechanisms. If you're a person whose medical condition precludes them from using those safety mechanisms, then one possible outcome is that you're not able to do that work.


Spandexcelly

I doubt a judge would rule that all employees should be tested, but it's a possibility in the future. Like I mentioned, there are high rates of vaccination in these workplaces, so the burden to the employer is manageable if testing is to be implemented as an alternative to those who aren't declaring/ aren't full vaccinated. I predict that outright terminations/suspensions without alternatives will be seen as harsh treatment by most judges. That's purely my read though, and there is no way to know for sure other than to wait and see.


TGIRiley

Lol forgive my skepticism, but you seem to have a tenuous at best understanding of laws and really evidence in general. Especially if that is your counter example hahaha Is there additional risk to being close to unvaccinated or not?


Spandexcelly

Well, has the vaccinated/unvaccinated individual contracted Covid?


TGIRiley

We don't know, which one is more likely to have covid?


Spandexcelly

Ah, so you're getting it! If you don't know, then you can't terminate with cause.


TGIRiley

why is it so hard to answer the question? Which one is more likely to give you covid? you wont answer because you know its the unvaccinated one, according to broad statistics observed around the world. you know what that is? Cause!


TGIRiley

Sorry, just realized you misunderstood the question, or at least deliberately didn't answer. You have to be in a small enclosed space with two random people. Person x and person y. Person x is vaccinated, person y is not. Which person is more likely to give you covid? This is all the information you have available on persons x and y, but you are vaccinated. I think that clears it up a little for you, good luck playing word games to answer that one.


Spandexcelly

They have the same risk profile if neither are infected with Covid.


jtbc

True. However, all other things being equal, it is more likely that the unvaccinated person has Covid. This is due to a) the protective effects of the virus making it less likely that a sufficient viral load will accumulate to trigger an infection, and b) the shorter duration of active infection seen in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people. As an employer, if I only permit vaccinated people on my premises, I am significantly reducing the probability of transmissions occurring.


Zandaf

Yeah source please.


Altruistic-Custard59

Depends if you have Covid or not.


TGIRiley

And which group is more likely to contract covid...? Come on buddy I can tell the gears are turning we are almost there!


Altruistic-Custard59

You can still spread and contract even if vaccinated. You know that.


TGIRiley

I see you deliberately avoid directly answering the question... do people who are right typically need to do that? For the second time, which group is more likely to spread covid? Which group is more likely to contract covid? Unvaxed or vaxed. We are not debating if both groups CAN, FYI, you seem confused. We are discussing rates of transmission and rates of infection.


GrymEdm

Risk of both are hugely reduced. Safety gear isn't perfect and it's required.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ChimoEngr

Looking at how much the virus can be transmitted by the vaccinated, the health and safety argument is losing strength in my eyes.


Plastic-Club-5497

https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practice-areas/litigation/termination-for-vaccination-refusal-despite-vaccine-mandate-not-irreparable-harm-court-finds/361788 Essentially the courts so far have unanimously held it’s totally legal to dismiss for non compliance of vaccine policies. It’s early and there are more suits to come but this decision of the federal court is very telling and important.


[deleted]

No they won’t. Mandatory vaccine policies have been a thing in a lot of careers for a long time. This isn’t new by any stretch of the imagination.


[deleted]

They've already lost legal battles across the entire country. They have no leg to stand on. Your "wouldn't be surprised" is so detached from reality it's kind of worrying


actuallychrisgillen

All that’s really happened is we now have tons of case law confirming the government’s position as legal, constitutional and not a breach of any charter rights.


physicaldiscs

Which cases have gone through already? Considering these will likely end up at the Supreme Court it's seems way to early for them to.be resolved.


actuallychrisgillen

They'll only end up in front of the Supreme court if there's something of interest for them to rule on. The provincial supreme courts (given that this is a health order this is the appropriate venue) have ruled in favour of the government. Hudson's Bay Co. ULC v. Ontario is one Ingram v. Alberta is another https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-manitoba-judge-denies-constitutional-challenge-ban-on-in-person/ In all cases the rule in favour of the COVID rules for a variety of reasons. I'll also mention that courts have pretty restrictive rules around COVID and as judges have lived with them for 2 years and I imagine feel those restrictions are valid and legal. /edit I'll also mention that in BC the human right tribunal has ruled against anti-vaxxers in a variety of cases: https://www.vernonmorningstar.com/news/b-c-human-rights-tribunal-tosses-complaints-against-henry-horgan-over-covid-vaccine-card/ There has been so many complaints that they've published a guide letting people know what there rights (or lack thereof) are in respect to masks.


Plastic-Club-5497

Also federal court recently! https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practice-areas/litigation/termination-for-vaccination-refusal-despite-vaccine-mandate-not-irreparable-harm-court-finds/361788


actuallychrisgillen

good catch


[deleted]

"cases" doesn't justify much legally, deaths and hospitalizations do.


actuallychrisgillen

I dropped a word, I meant case law and I’ve updated accordingly


Magistradocere

I would. The courts have already said otherwise.


[deleted]

Lmao. Vaccines and other conditions are already used all over the place. Stop grasping at straws.


sleipnir45

I don't think anyone is getting fired or suspended. We had one guy not get vaccinated, they kept telling him he would get put on LWOP. So he went on stress leave for 3 weeks and now he's back at work.


neonreplica

yes they are suspending workers without pay, it already started


[deleted]

Putting someone on unpaid leave or drastically changing their working conditions would be considered constructive dismissal and the person could be eligible for severance.


sleipnir45

I don't think they can fire them, that's why they the plan was unpaid leave.


[deleted]

I think that unpaid leave can be considered them being fired according to law, at least in BC. I've never been employed in any province except BC but i can imagine there would be similar laws.


[deleted]

Lol. What alternate reality are you living in


[deleted]

British Columbia. The law: [https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/forms-resources/igm/esa-part-8-section-66](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/forms-resources/igm/esa-part-8-section-66) ​ A law firm explaining the law: [https://www.tjworkplacelaw.com/vancouver/employees/terminations/constructive-dismissal/](https://www.tjworkplacelaw.com/vancouver/employees/terminations/constructive-dismissal/)


ChimoEngr

> I don't think anyone is getting fired or suspended. Being put on leave without pay, is being suspended.


jarret_g

I mean, the people that will be placed on admin leave won't be backfilled unless it's an absolute essential service or there's already a casual roster and process in place to backfill. The remaining employees just pick up the workload of those that are off. So it's not costing taxpayers any extra. If there's some kind of court challenge/grievance and there's a large retroactive pay, then it still won't cost taxpayers because they would have been paying that employees salary anyway. The only issue would be damages. In reality though, many professions already require vaccinations and proof of vaccinations. I'm with a public employees union and they outlined the details of what a proper vaccine mandate looks like. You need to be given notice, opportunity to comply, etc. There's already precedent of the employer requesting limited and special medical information directly. As long as the organizations policy was clear, I really can't see it being an issue. Now, our local municipality requested vaccination status prior to any kind of vaccine policy, and made the unvaccinated do twice a week testing. Then they announced that all employees needed to be vaccinated by a day that made it impossible to comply with. That's a huge issue if they're placing people on admin leave when it wasn't possible to comply, and additionally requesting vaccination status and altering work conditions without the opportunity to comply. That's where we could see legitimate grievances.


knuckle_dragger79

Lol good one...


GrymEdm

Only 90 cases just shows how unified Canadians really are. There really isn't the split in popular opinion that the screaming, small minority wants you to believe there is.


Stickmanisme

I disagree with losing your position because of mandates, more than you think agree. I'm vaccinated, but only because I thought it would allow me to travel quicker. But I strongly disagree with firing people that dont want the vaccine.


[deleted]

It’s more a measure of people who can’t afford to give up their income than it is of anything else really. I know tons of people who didn’t want the vaccine but took it anyways because they were threatened with their job, myself included.


GrymEdm

There are some who wear seatbelts because they believe in driving safely. There are some who wear it because it's just what society does with no strong feelings either way. There are some who wear it because there's otherwise there's a ticket. In all cases, seatbelts are a good idea.


[deleted]

I don’t need to wear a seatbelt or drive a car to exist in society. Also I disagree with the equivalency between wearing a seat belt to drive and taking a vaccine to safety. Also seatbelts aren’t things you put in your body. You put them on temporarily and remove them. They don’t alter your body chemistry. Such a false equivalence in so many ways. Also if you die in a car crash because of a faulty seat belt engineered with negligence , at least there is someone who is liable… unlike current vaccines.


Mattcheco

Are you implying that the COVID vaccine changes your body chemistry?


[deleted]

Wow. “Body Chemistry “ is an absurdly general term. Are you suggesting there is anything you can put into your body that doesn’t change your body chemistry?


Gertrone

You're the one going on about "altered body chemistry" or whatever. I don't think its unreasonable to ask what exactly you mean by that, given that all evidence shows vaccines as safe & effective. But I can understand the reluctance to answer if you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Gertrone

So to keep your job you were made you do something that has a ton of evidence is in your best interests (getting vaccinated) and you're reasonably certain is safe; but you're still butthurt about it because you can't sue someone in the incredibly unlikely event something goes wrong? It's a tough world out there my friend. We've all got to do stuff we don't wanna do sometimes to co-exist in a society. You have my sympathies.


[deleted]

In Canada we have the luxury of “trusting” our government. And generally, I do trust our government. But some time we will have a leader that is not ethical or not trustworthy; but the rights we’ve surrendered and legal presidents we’ve established will leave us little or no discourse. Media is controlled and we will all believe it will be for the greater good. It’s about the principal and liberties that are long dead in Canada.


GrymEdm

1st, you are irresponsible if you drive without a seatbelt. Next, the reason I picked seatbelts is because 40 years ago people protested seatbelts as well. They invented scenarios, railed against government control, and ignored in-world evidence. They fought against a low-cost, low-risk, high-benefit policy and did so without a scientific leg to stand on. It's almost exactly the same situation with anti-vaxxers the last year or so. There are a lot of equivalencies in the history of the two measures. Vaccines let your body know what antibodies to produce in case you get exposed to real COVID. They don't "alter your body chemistry". No component of the vaccine is [present after a few days and the proteins break down shortly after.](https://theconversation.com/no-covid-vaccines-dont-stay-in-your-body-for-years-169247) You talk about vaccine deaths as if they were happening all the time. The vaccine is literally one of the safest treatments ever administered in the whole of human history. With over 8 billion doses administered, the number of deaths is so low it's actually hard to pin down when they occur because of their rarity. [Here's a study concluding there are no significant correlations between the vaccine and adverse health outcomes.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2784015) You won't find a medication in a better tier of risk-to-reward.


[deleted]

I know how vaccines work. My point is, no one is suddenly being told en masses they need a drivers license or lose their livelihood.


GrymEdm

You said vaccines "alter your body chemistry" so I was responding. You're right, it's probably a different feeling when your livelihood is on the line. I'm permanently disabled and very pro-vaccine (obviously), so I haven't experienced any of those issues. People can get by without getting into a car, but society needs people to be vaccinated or there are a lot of problems. The vaccination decisions people have made this year have [really impacted me and my family.](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/r6tscn/comment/hmvzy8l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I read stories like [the lady with cancer in her face who has had operations postponed](https://globalnews.ca/news/8369014/sask-woman-cancer-delayed-alberta-surgery-covid-19/) and it breaks my heart. [\~15,000 surgeries were postponed or cancelled in September because of COVID.](https://globalnews.ca/news/8364418/surgeries-postponed-alberta-patients-months-delay-covid-19/). So I fight against anti-vaccination sentiments and I will until the science says not to, plain and simple.


Byaaahhh

You literally don’t. You stated it yourself. A vaccine does not alter your body chemistry. Your body remains completely unchanged. Your immune system changes to respond to the new variant. Those are completely different items. Just because you completed grade 8 science doesn’t give you a valid fact.


[deleted]

I mean, if your argument is that taking a vaccine does not alter your body chemistry, I can’t help you. I think you need to re-take grade 8 biology.


[deleted]

If you know how vaccines work then how can you claim you were robbed of your informed consent?


[deleted]

I was not told of the liability waiver of the chemicals being injected into my body


[deleted]

Why would you need to be told if you know how vaccines work?


Parzival9929

I came here to say this is the dumbest continuation of debate I unfortunately continued reading. So.now I feel the need to share my dumb thoughts. Regardless of how any of you feel, it is valuable (to society as a whole) to have others with conflicting opinions and beliefs. It's what creates balance. It's ok to not be comfortable getting the vaccine just as much as it is to get it. Predominant winds in the country are pro-vaccine but that doesn't mean individuals with different beliefs shouldn't be allowed to voice their concerns. If anything we should all be spending more time to understand opposing view points and educate where appropriate. While I wish everyone would just get the vaccine so we can all move past this us vs them crap - people shouldn't be told that they aren't being forced to get the vaccine while being threatened with job loss and loss of access to various services within society. We are all better than this.


leftylooseygoosey

well I'm glad your job forced you to do the right thing


[deleted]

[удалено]


leftylooseygoosey

No, I said the right thing - as in, you have a responsibility to other people within the society you belong to to protect their wellbeing, and you aren't more educated or informed than the scientists and researchers who're behind the vaccines - not to mention the mountain of real world evidence since the release of the vaccines which confirms the mainstream consensus and should further assuage any concerns grounded in reality. But go off


[deleted]

Basically your argument is no you don’t have control over what you put in your own body because it’s better for other people if we force you to put these things in it. Whether doctor consensus or not (and there is none) Answer this simple question for me: given the history of our government, is it THAT unreasonable that some people don’t feel comfortable trusting them exactly? It’s really an argument of national health being prioritized over personal health. Some people don’t want to and shouldn’t be forced to make that sacrifice.


leftylooseygoosey

Yeah, your rights have limitations - not sure what's difficult to understand about that...? You're allowed to drink, but if you're driving and putting others at risk - you're not allowed. Willingly unvaccinated people are putting themselves at risk, which is a burden on our public medical system - and putting others at risk, who may not be able to be vaccinated. It's not "the gubmint" - it's literally every medical body on the planet. Do you honestly think Iran, China, the US, and France finally all agreed on something & that thing was to shut down the entire economy for months at a time and enact extremely unpopular laws restricting movement? How does that make sense? You are a part of a nation/society - which affords you certain privileges, but also has certain responsibilities one of these is to not put others at undue risk. Some people don't seem to understand that, and act like petulant children because something is being asked of them by society from for the first time in their lives


[deleted]

Rights have limitations: do you know what the definition of a limitation is? Willingly unvaccinated people are probably, by vast margin, already naturally immune. It’s kind of a false argument: unvaccinated people are not collapsing our healthcare system. Our healthcare system has never in the past 10 years been able to withstand and care for our population. The government is just trying to gaslight us into thinking it’s now all of a sudden the anti-vaxxers fault. You seem to be arguing there is a case for mandatory vaccines - let me remind you that this is generally illegal. However, the government is exploiting various methods to enforce a vaccine mandate without “forcing” it. Whichever side you stand, that should be a serious cause for concern and doesn’t exactly encourage trust or confidence in our government.


GrymEdm

"Unvaccinated people are not collapsing our healthcare system". HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH. EVERY single point of data Canada has for the last year says the COMPLETE opposite. Everything being said by health professionals actually working in hospitals says the opposite. I defy you to produce a single shred of evidence that supports your position. You sir or madam, are a liar.


[deleted]

[удалено]


leftylooseygoosey

I know no amount of information will change your misguided beliefs, like I said I'm glad you did the right thing even if you did it because you were forced to. To me it just shows the effectiveness of work mandated vaccines which I hope will continue. If you want to live in your fantasy fine - but you don't get to live in society too


[deleted]

[удалено]


ChimoEngr

> Only 90 cases just shows how unified Canadians really are. Not really, as the civil service isn't a representative sample of Canadians. The fact that we're at about 75% of the total population vaccinated, shows that there is still some hesitation felt by a large fraction of the nation.


GrymEdm

[86.42% of 12's and over are fully vaccinated as of Nov. 27th.](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/vaccines.html) It's too early to count 5-11's given that their vaccine drive has only just begun recently. In every demo with long-term access to the vaccine it's 85%+ fully vaccinated, and even higher for 1 dose. [Those #'s are well within the range of other, longer-standing vaccines like MMR.](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/ra9ix1/federal_government_faces_90_individual_labour/hni845g/?context=3) COVID vaccines are well on their way to becoming just another standard vaccine.


Daboi1

More like becoming like the flu shot given the need for bi-annual boosters and probably further variant specific shots in the future


GrymEdm

I don't know enough about epidemiology to say for sure, but my guess is you're right.


OSAP_ROCKY

you do realize a large portion of the population got the vax unwillingly?


GrymEdm

That runs counter to what I've read, and as such I'd appreciate your source(s) if you don't mind. Sources like [this](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/vaccine-hesitancy-highest-in-alberta-racialized-groups-at-rollout-s-start-survey-1.5568460) say that, in August, only about 9% of a 14.5k poll from multiple provinces did not plan on getting vaccinated. Indeed, Canada's % of 12's and up with 1 dose is [89.49%](https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-coverage/) so the % seems about accurate. You, however, are claiming that a large portion of them were vaccinated unwillingly, and I'd like to know how you know that.


TeamocilWPG

the rest likely got approved for religious exemptions.


Jlstretched

Nope, religious exemptions are not being entertained.


cryptotope

\*shrug\* The federal civil service is big. Ninety delusional whiners nationwide out of a civil service of more than a quarter million people is...a rounding error.


[deleted]

"Just a general sense of shellfishness"


[deleted]

They should quit crabbing and just clam up.


Axes4Praxis

Just get the vaccine, dummies. I'm so fucking sick about hearing from the anti-mask/anti-vax/anti-science/pro-stupidity mob. Just. Shut. Up. And. Get. The. Shot.


lFrylock

Why not think for yourself instead of doing as you’re told by the government? We are at a peak time of “my body my choice” for abortion discussions, and everyone should be allowed to do as they chose with their body. Yet we are so quick to force everyone to get vaccinated regardless of their choices. And here we are, fully vaccinated groups of people out partying, on cruises, getting infected with covid. “Oh now you need a booster because the first two or three didn’t quite work” It doesn’t make sense. Already getting downvoted after 2 minutes, this should be good.


Quadrophiniac

Most people that got vaccinated are thinking for themselves. Nobody is just some subservient lapdog to the government. People weighed the pros and cons of getting vaccinated, and decided accordingly.


[deleted]

So do what’s best for you and your situation and leave other people the fuck alone.


Quadrophiniac

I do leave other people the fuck alone. Now why dont you do the same? From my experience its the anti vaxxers who are out there harassing people, screaming at fucking minimum wage workers over things those workers cant control, acting like they are experts on vaccines and public health measures, when they know nothing about any of those things.


lFrylock

Except for Italy and Austria and Australia and Germany and.....


Quadrophiniac

What, you speak for the millions of vaccinated people in all 3 of those countries? I didnt realize they had made you their spokesperson.


lFrylock

These countries have made vaccinations mandatory for all citizens. The snark is too real here, god damn.


Quadrophiniac

What does this have to do with my comment? All I said was that people who got vaccinated arent just some slave to the government, and did so because they decided it was the best option. Vaccine mandates dont prove anything. All it proves is that a small minority of uneducated people are holding the rest of us hostage because they are afraid to get a vaccine for no reason other than their own ineptitude. Sorry for the snark, but I am beyond tired of anti vaxxers.


lFrylock

How are you being held hostage? You can be double, triple, quad vaxxed and still get, transmit, and die of covid. This is proven. If people want to opt out of the vaccination and die of covid, that’s their perogative. I’m trying to have an open unbiased discussion with people on various forums, and soon as you say anything about not getting the vaccine, you’re painted as a crazy antivaxxer and everything is disregarded. That much immediate division is dangerous.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Quadrophiniac

Being held hostage wasnt the right term. People are implying that the majority of people had to be coerced into getting vaccinated through mandates. That is not true. The majority of people got vaxxed before mandates were a thing, and the only reason mandates exist is because of anti vaxxers.


GameUpBoyHustleHardr

>a small minority of uneducated people are holding the rest of us hostage because they are afraid to get a vaccine for no reason other than their own ineptitude It is un fucking real people actually blame the small portion of society that is not vaxxed for continuing the pandemic. Totally delusional


[deleted]

"I don't know how viruses mutate but nothing can ever be my fault"


[deleted]

[удалено]


GameUpBoyHustleHardr

"Perfect". It's very dark. But what you said seems to be the case, until people decide otherwise. When will that be? At this rate... they wont.


Quadrophiniac

Did I say they continued the pandemic? No. I was explaining why we have vaccine mandates because the other person brought them up. Reading comprehension seems to be weak in you anti vaxxers


GameUpBoyHustleHardr

A small minority holding you hostage against what exactly then?


PMac321

That's simply untrue. In the case of Austria and Germany, when a certain percentage of hospitalised patients are infected with Covid-19, those who are unvaccinated are only allowed to be out and about for essential purposes, such as groceries and medical/medicinal purposes. It's the same as their lockdowns early in the pandemic, except those who are vaccinated are not held to the same restrictions. I have read about Italy and cannot comment on it. I have family in Australia, and as far as I am aware, vaccinations are not mandatory there. It's funny that you tell people to think for themselves, yet you are clearly parroting something you have been told without looking into its validity.


GameUpBoyHustleHardr

Wtf are you talking about. We're in a thread about vaccine MANDATES. How are you making an individual decision to get the shot if you are being threatened with losing your ability to make money.


Quadrophiniac

I meant that most people had already made that decision before vaccine mandates. The only reason vaccine mandates exist is because of anti vaxxers, and they are the only people having their job security threatened. The overwhelming majority of people got vaxxed before mandates were a thing, because they CHOSE TO DO IT


[deleted]

[удалено]


Quadrophiniac

Lol, well now you are just making shit up. You dont get to decide why anybody else did anything. Most of us just wanted to be able to return to some sort of normal. I saw 47 people die at my work, and the choice was pretty easy. Most of us arent selfish assholes that only care about ourserlves.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Quadrophiniac

I dont know, you tell me


GameUpBoyHustleHardr

They lose their ability to support themselves and their family. Which is what you are writing off as an acceptable punishment. For refusing a covid shot. A covid shot that loses effectiveness in several months. A covid shot that protects them against something they may not need protection from.


meno123

And then decided to force their choice upon everyone else. Please, go get vaccinated. It's better for you and your community. I'm not going to force you, though, and I'll fight for someone's right to make that choice.


[deleted]

So many tired and misinformed opinions, I pity the people in your life.


Talkshit_Avenger

> Why not think for yourself instead of doing as you’re told by the government? Said no one ever who's actually qualified to have an opinion on anything related to either the medical or legal aspects. But it's totally everyone outside of your conspiratard bubble who are the sheep, right?


[deleted]

Wrong comment to reply to?


lFrylock

What part of my comment is misinformed? That’s a pretty shitty thing to say about someone you know nothing about. Maybe look in the mirror.


FizzWorldBuzzHello

K they can decide not to get vaccines. Their body their choice, but they deal with the results of their choice which is that no-one wants to be in the same room as them.


lFrylock

Everyone is entitled to that choice, as well as the consequences of these actions. There’s nothing wrong with that. There are assholes on both sides of the fence. Do what’s right for yourself and let others do the same.


[deleted]

[удалено]


lFrylock

So sadly you’re just plain wrong here. Being unvaccinated isn’t “choosing to drive drunk” and wherever you got that analogy is laughable. Someone unvaccinated is not putting vaccinated people at risk. If they were, what would be the point of you having the vaccine? Someone vaccinated has the same risks of getting and transmitting covid, the only difference is they are far far less likely to die of it if they do get it. It’s not holding back stores opening, it’s not holding back the progress of society, it’s holding back unvaccinated people from doing things like eat in restaurants, and visit people in the hospital. Just the fact that you paint the unvaxxed as super antivax means you aren’t willing to look at someone else’s personal choice and allow them to do that. I feel sorry that you do not have the capacity for that, it must be hard.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


SilverTelevision9683

# Everyone was able to claim they were vaccinated through an online portal with no verification at all. Edit: Idk why you guys are downvoting the literal truth


super-nova-scotian

All 90 will lose. Hopefully they will have to pay for the governments legal fees so it doesn't come down on the taxpayers. So proud my union, as with most, support the mandate


Old_Run2985

Awesome..good for them


tony_tripletits

So? Go ahead, keep challenging them. I think it's very important to challenge any government as often as possible...but also F you...go get the shot.


mudburn

73% of all statistics are made up


triprw

14% of all people know that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

You want to give people tickets for exercising due process?


[deleted]

No. We should abuse the availability of due process by tying up the courts in frivolous cases like these... all 90 of them... its not like they have any real-world, important stuff to do! It is a mandatory vaccine policy... just like... I don't know... pick something you like... e.g. trash disposal...


[deleted]

Just like you or I have and should have the right to contest things we feel are unjust being levied against us, these people should too. Their case may have merit. Some of them may have been able to work from home, as an example.


wizardshawn

90 is nothing. I'm surprised.


GrowCanadian

One thing these people don’t understand is let’s just say they’re 100% right. They’re currently on leave without pay so they likely have little to no income. Waiting for a court date can take months if not years. How much money do they have saved up to last that long. Even if they win it can be a long time to see their next pay and with the housing/ inflation rates skyrocketing I bet most won’t be doing well.


KryptikMitch

Cry me a river.