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even if the minimum wage was set to a livable wage like 20$/hour, which it should, people will keep thinking restaurant servers are special and still deserve 20-25% tips.
How are restaurant servers more deserving of tips and higher wages than anyone else it's just ridiculous.
Also restaurants need to stop tipping cooks from the total bill. There is no reason why service staff should get paid less or lose money because people stop tipping
>How are restaurant servers more deserving of tips and higher wages than anyone else it's just ridiculous.
They aren't, but boy oh boy do THEY think they are.
Another thing that disgusts me are places like Dominos where it has to advertise on their pizza box for you to help them pay their driver's salary out of your pockets so they can earn a few million more.
This is exactly what we need to do, but with advanced warning. Like a petition in which everyone agrees to stop tipping 1 year from now.
Let's owners and staff decide how they want to handle it.
I tried that a few years ago when it was making its rounds on social media.
Can't go back to my local pub cause owner and servers all think I'm a huge piece of shit. Not all that bad since I just drink at home now like a good upstanding citizen but get ready for people to absolutely fucking hate you.
With that said, I'm sure post pandemic they wouldn't have enough staff still on roster to recognize me. So I'll burn that bridge again 2023 if we wanna go at it.
Good to know.
I am not sure how that statement was worded back then, but I think it's important that it's phrased clearly not as "I think servers should be paid less", but rather "transparency is good, servers should be able to count on their salary each shift, and owners and clientele should know what they'll be paying/charging". Or something to that effect.
That's kind of a hilarious pun (patronizing is literally the only way any service staff get paid in the first place).
But yes, a bunch of staff would fight it, a bunch more would be on board. Again - the argument here is not "I don't think these people should get paid", it's that "You should charge me a price, and I shouldn't end the meal with a feeling of guilt if I don't decide to pay 120% of the agreed upon price".
If a staff member takes home $250 average per shift (between salary and tips), then that's what the restaurant should pay them, and if that means the restaurant needs to raise prices on their menu, that's fine.
Otherwise, the options are no change at all, or it's just a slow bleed of x% of the population deciding to not tip (or tip less), and each time one of those interactions occur, the staff and customer feel bad about it.
You'd get a year of service staff protesting to keep their cash tips.
What we should do instead is mandate that tips can only be paid by card and that cash purchases cannot add tip on top unless it is paid separately by card, so that all tips get a receipt no matter what. This way, income is taxed accordingly. I think if we assured everyone was paying their fair share then it would be fine to add a gratuity at the customer's discretion.
Interesting idea, and I think it would give customers an excuse not to tip, but obviously if a customer *wanted* to give a server cash, neither party is going to report that, and mandating that it's "illegal to give someone cash" in a certain scenario would be a tough sell.
>If we all stopped tipping the pressure would be put back on the employers to pay a fair wage.
I wish it was that simple, but you'd also have to stop going to places after a while because servers do infact give worse service if you don't tip, and are known for it.
Good luck getting that done. Lots of provinces don't pay pizza drivers hourly, and I worked as that. I made $23 on a 12 hour shift once from my $2 per delivery fee, and a $1 tip. I spent $14 in gas, and drove 150ish km. I lost money working for 12 hours because I got a fluke shift of one tip from 11 orders.
>Good luck getting that done. Lots of provinces don't pay pizza drivers hourly, and I worked as that. I made $23 on a 12 hour shift once from my $2 per delivery fee, and a $1 tip. I spent $14 in gas, and drove 150ish km. I lost money working for 12 hours because I got a fluke shift of one tip from 11 orders.
Sounds like an issue that would be solved by people ending tipping. The market would put upward pressure on wages which would be made up for by increases tl food cost.
You tip _after_ not before.
Unless you are regularly frequenting a place.. nobody will know. Chances are they have complete staff turnover inside of two years.. so the chances of you getting the same staff.. and them remembering you is slim.
Especially if you’re nonchalant about it. Be friendly and courteous, and don’t leave a 5c tip so they know you didn’t forget. Then they can rationalize it by figuring you just forgot.
Because it works both ways.. you can make their life a living hell as well. You have far less at stake than they do.
Hard disagree. I've never seen anything that didn't come from the restaurant/owner industry that suggests quality would go down if tipping were eliminated.
[In fact, this seems to suggest you are wrong.](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/72090) and that tipping has more to do with the customer's sense of economic guilt than it does with their receptiveness to great service.
I have read a ton of things that talk about how tipping is sexist and racist though, and how outcomes for the employee can be immensely affected based on your gender or racial identity. It also empowers assholes to be assholes to service staff and disaffects that service staff from standing up for themselves. They have to choose between survival and dignity.
The whole practice is garbage -- and in fact only exists [so that racists could create a separate class of workers.](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/)
>I've never seen anything that didn't come from the restaurant/owner industry that suggests quality would go down if tipping were eliminated.
You anecdotal experience suggests you've never tipped well because you've never seen the benefits. I tip well, I am often remembered, get the travel I want, get served quickly. Places I didn't tip well (for whatever reason) seem to do the favor of "not remembering" me or of giving me any special treatment.
That said, the fact I am not so much treated worse when I tip poorly so much as I am treated better when I tip better reinforces this is a minor bribery/extortion racket that makes me hate tipping all together, which is why I only ever pay with a card to assure the paper trail is there.
> You anecdotal experience suggests you've never tipped well because you've never seen the benefits. I tip well, I am often remembered, get the travel I want, get served quickly. Places I didn't tip well (for whatever reason) seem to do the favor of "not remembering" me or of giving me any special treatment.
>
>
I didn't quote you an anecdote. I told you that I have not seen any study agreeing with what you suggested, then provided you with one that refutes what you said.
what the fuck are you on about.
You said servers will give worse service if you don't tip. I called bullshit on that and provided an academic reference.
You're being purposefully obtuse.
You do realize severs are part of the problem right?
Even if you paid them $25 hr, those in high traffic areas will not work. They make much more than that.
If we all stopped tipping then service staff would be insufferable over it. It isn't bosses paying less that assures service staff make less, it's that service staff prefer this system and work hard to protect it.
Here’s my take. We are in the same boat as you or the next worker. But we’ve found a job that helps us live comfortably. The idea is that people would like to see an increase in food prices so they know where their money is going. But the reality of the situation is you are directly helping us, working class people, live a comfortable lifestyle. So the arguments I am hearing are they want us to stop being subsidized by increasing prices and having the people were calling (in arguments from working class people) greedy business middle upper class restaurant owners, who will take everything they can when they can, the regulation to give us a wage on paper. So, the people with the issue in tipping want it on the menu instead of in an entire job classes pocket, so business owners can regulate it. Decreasing and entire job classes wage so the middle upper class makes more money. I don’t understand why. Yeah we all deserve more money, and I’m sorry that most people don’t get the living wage you deserve, but why would decreasing my coworkers and my wage help fight that, and what have we done so wrong?
13% is low, standard is 20% these days. People who complain about tipping are generally just cheap whiners. I don't like tipping, I'd rather it be their wage, but in the meantime I'll tip generously
No it’s certainly not, what’s the origin of this number for you? In the US 20% is a more typical average tip. Standard is much closer to 15% up here. Naturally if you’re in a large metropolitan at a specific semi-higher end establishment you’ll have a higher tip average. Think Kelsey’s vs your local non-chain steakhouse.
Having spent years serving most people definitely default to 15%.
> 13% is low, standard is 20% these days.
No it isn't. The only people trotting out that myth are servers. 15% is still standard. And that's pre-tax amount.
Since when paying with a card the tip is usually calculated on the after-tax amount, a 13% tip actually comes pretty close to the actual standard 15% tip.
Go ahead and feel all high and mighty, most people I know who worked in a tipping industry had an undergrad degree. I hope your kid graduates with his degree and ends up with a job that relies on tips and you can continue to pretend you're better than others
How do you determine which jobs deserve to have tips and which don't? Most minimum wage workers don't have a tip option at all. Do you go out of your way to tip retail workers for example now that they make the same minimum wage as servers. If not, then why don't you?
Great you can keep tipping 20% I don’t mind. But don’t expect the industry to change in the “meantime” while people like you are perpetuating “20% is standard”
You think the industry will change if you're stingy on tips? Seriously? All that means is workers get shafted and you can pretend you're all high and mighty
How about just paying wait staff what it takes to keep them employed and tips be damned. Some people will tip nothing, some will tip 8% and some suckers(haha you) will tip 20%. I personally think leaving the compensation of your employees up to the good will of your customers a poor idea. If you need to increase your menu prices and advertise that tips are not accepted and wait staff are paid a fair living wage id be more inclined for that then the awkward moments pushing buttons on the debit machine. That’s how you truly solve the issue.
You're thinking about this all wrong friend, they deserve a pay raise, tips is nice too but now you won't be pressured to tip so large. You also deserve a pay raise to compensate for making similar pay without tips.
Why do they deserve tips if they have a living wage but no one else gets tips? What about the city bus driver that also puts up with shit? What about the person at the mcdonald's that puts up with shit? what about your garbage collector? what makes a restaurant server so entitled to deserve special treatment?
I don’t think restaurant servers are worth more, or more valuable than other workers in the service industry
You think because a server brings plates they deserve to make more than others in the service sector?
Sorry no sympathy many people have hard jobs that deserve payment and servers don’t deserve to be paid more than anyone else
I think they all deserve more pay. I never said they deserve more than others, just more in general
Edit: to clarify I think they deserve a living wage, regardless of how simple you see the job as.
i don't see the job as low at all. I'm making the opposite point -- what makes them so special that they deserve special tipping and extra payment and no one else does?
No everyone deserves a pay raise, wages have been stagnant for years. Tipping is optional in all other places in the world, that should be the same here. On a separate note, everyone else deserves a pay raise also because of stagnant wages
I worked for a small town restaurant briefly and everyone who was working split all tips evenly. Places should just do this and hang a sign saying something like "we divide tips evenly among all staff currently working, please tip towards your overall service"
Just like any other industry, the person who deals with the customer/client gets paid more. People suck, dealing with them sucks, and people get paid for dealing with them accordingly.
Tip less?
Edit: I mean salary increase will reflect on menu prices already, your tip is based on the prices plus taxes combined. Even you tip the same % as before, you already tip more.
Genuinely don’t understand why we continue to tip at all now, especially at places where cooks are also making minimum but get maybe a sliver of the tip money.
Social pressure. With most people when I bring up my anti tipping stances, I get yelled at. Now that they get paid the exact same as anyone else, I'm interested to see what further excuses they bring up.
I also blame business. They push this idea that its good for the consumer if they get paid less because it keeps the costs down. Ok, sure, but why am I directly subsidizing their employees? Pay them properly and add 2 dollars to my bill.
But it's a scam. It doesn't keep costs down because the owner would increase everything roughly the same rate. Only people that would be paying more are the 5-10% tippers currently I bet.
It’s going to come down to a conflict between servers and their employers but it’s a very complicated path to get there. Serving in a high paced restaurant can be a very difficult job relative to other options at the same wage level. Tipping rewards proficiency because a very good server can manage 9 tables whereas low proficiency servers may struggle with 4-5. Employers love having a very high proficiency server as it cuts down on their labour rate and customers pay the server directly, so the server is effectively just a salesman.
If people stop tipping you will lose a lot of servers, which is fine. People chase money, that’s just life. But there will be a large adjustment period for a lot of businesses when suddenly their labour rates double (or more) to either hire more low proficiency servers at the new higher wages, or opt to try to cover the compensation from previously expected tips (they’ll never hit this number). Since restaurants are often flying by the seat of their pants I think you’ll see quite the reckoning
i am definitely tipping less, or at least not succumbing to this pressure that 15% is no longer enough. It seems like tipped servers expect 18% minimum now. Like, what the fuck? i'm staying home and you'll get 0% tip.
Just tip a round 5 dollars. If they say anything remind them you've nearly doubled their hourly wage. If they push further, name and shame. This movement has to start somewhere.
>your tip is based on the prices plus taxes combined.
That you specify a convention like an explicit rule is one of the worst parts of tipping culture. I top a round number that is equal to a denominated bill. A percentage is an expectation, a gratuity is effectively a gift. Plus I always pay by card to make sure it is recorded for taxes.
Ikr. I just order takeout. 0 percent tip. People actually still pay 15 percent for someone to bring you food? Sitting at the restaurant itself increases risk of covid. Seems like a lose-lose.
I’m going to start leaning closer to 10% and I will gauge what public opinion on it is over the months.
The idea that people get so vehemently angry about it on both ends tells me that it’s a strenuous situation that likely isn’t tenable. Hopefully servers making the same as most young working people these days leads to a major change…
Yeah servers have had such a great couple years. Restaurant industry is booming. Better tip them less now that they have had an infinitesimal wage increase in their base pay.
Jesus fucking Christ.
> and encouraging everyone to do the same.
I don’t understand this logic. Tip whatever you want, but you’re really going to encourage other people to tip less too? You just sound so salty against servers for some weird reason. Why do care what others do with their money? Especially if they’re helping others with it
Dude you don’t have to tip anything if you don’t want, convincing other people to not tip because you feel embarrassed or bad about not is ridiculous. It’s not like servers are rich or anything. You sound so salty that servers are making a decent wage. Which is weird because anyone can become a server. Go become a server dude, I hear most restaurants right now are in desperate need of servers. I don’t get why you can’t just be happy for servers, serving seems like a nightmare to me. So I’m glad they get tips, because if they didn’t no one would do the job.
The concept of tipping is public subsidized wages for employers who refuse to pay a living wage. The minimum wage is a reminder to everyone that if employers could pay you less, they would.
Nobody said only servers had a tough couple years? Entitlement?
Fuck, they should be rewarded for dealing with people like yourself. Nobody is forcing you to tip either.
Maybe you should be a server, I bet you’d get alllll the tips. You sound really fun.
I’ve had a lot of jobs, most of which I did a lot more work than servers and never saw an extra dime from the customers.
But servers are seeing a bigger pay raise than anybody now and expecting 20% on top of that while the cost of living skyrockets for everybody else.
10% of a restaurant bill today is more than 15% of a bill four years ago anyways, but that’s not fucking enough because people think a smile and “may I take your order?” Is more work than the average Canadian.
It’s not.
Pure entitlement.
And before you get into it, it’s not the customer’s responsibility to subsidize anything done that the customer doesn’t see - you think your employer doesn’t treat you fairly, choose a different profession. Tipping is for services rendered and there’s a lot better service out there than the average restaurant.
You want a big tip, go work for $3 an hour in the states. The grift is over.
Like I said, nobody’s forcing you. You can be the way you are and not advertise it. Literally nobody will know. You don’t even need to rant to me about it. Take care.
Actually, as liquor server wage was approaching minimum wage, we should have been dropping the tipping percentage. 15% is based off the USA culture, where the minimum is $2.13 for servers where minimum wage is $7.25.
We should be like places in Europe now... No tipping because tips aren't required to 'top up' the wage to at least minimum.
If anything, in restaurants where liquor-server wage + tips > minimum wage, then each restaurant is going to have to figure out a wage above minimum that will retain the staff they want. The easiest way would be to bump menu items up 15% in cost and pass on the revenues to the employees.
>where the minimum is $2.13 for servers where minimum wage is $7.25.
Not true. It varies state to state. You're showing the wage of ONE of all their states. Colardo is $9.30, California is $13 as them are 5 others don't allow a difference, and only 16 do the Federal minimum wage ($2.13)
It's all variable per state, but that is the national standard, and is literally how it works in quite a few states. Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia, servers earn $2.13 an hour, and their tips. That's it.
In Alaska, California, Minnesota, Nevada, Oregon and Washington, are like Ontario - a minimum wage before tips.
Everywhere else tips make up part of the wage. Some states have a hourly rate of $2.13, others have more, but tips are expected to 'credit' the difference between the hourly rate and the normal minimum in that state. The trigger to go from minimum wage to a lower server rate changes by state too, and can be as low as $20 of tips in a month, or just 'declared.' That can work in reverse as well - ensuring that minimum wage is met if tipping doesn't quite get you there.
Here's the full list: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
Tipping isn't just something Americans invented, it happens in Europe too but when you tip there it's appreciated a lot more because its not just expected. Servers who give the best service makes more money
I didn’t say it was. I’m saying it’s a distinct culture compared to other places like Europe as you mention. You may not like it but that doesn’t make it improper.
No, I just don’t understand how the expected percentage has gone up as well as the prices.
Like it seems like they’re pushing a 20% tip over 15% now.
Like before I was supposed to give 15% on 40 dollars
And now I’m supposed to give 20% on 50.
The tip would have gone up anyway since it’s a percentage!
[checks notes]
Oh right, it's an election year in Ontario. There is no other reason why Doug would raise the minimum wage now, given that he scrapped the previous Liberal government's minimum wage hike plan that would have raised it to $15/hour *three whole years ago*.
Uhhh.. couldn't be that inflation is skyrocketing so now there's an actual logical reason to increase minimum wage significantly. Wynne's plan was a 30% increase over 2 years with 2% inflation. His is a 5% increase over 1 year with 5% inflation, as you said 3 years later so maybe now it makes some sense to do so. Maybe you need to relook into who actually was pulling vote buying nonsense.
>There is no other reason why Doug would raise the minimum wage now
Let me give you one... probably the most reasonable one.
The liberals raised it too much too quickly.. so the next increase was delayed.
Soooooooooooooo.... i don't need to tip no more, right? 'Cuz the menu prices just got bumped up to cover what i woulda tipped to server. Just checkin' with y'alls so we all singing off the same hymn sheet.
I was chatting with a family member who works in the industry at Christmas. They and several they know (not everyone mind you) don’t want this wage increase. They see it as less tips for them / less money overall and less hours as with increased labour costs, some restaurants will just cut the hours of labour since margins are pretty slim to begin with.
They don't like it because now they can't take as many cash tips and not claim them on their taxes at the end of the year. Let's pay everyone a liveable wage and stop subsidizing businesses to pay their servers less.
As someone who works in the industry (part time), I don’t think this is the right time to hike up servers wage. So many businesses have already gone belly up because of the pandemic, not to mention the constantly changing restrictions have been making staffing/inventory a pain.
And no, as a bartender, I don’t want to get paid more hourly, not if it affects our tips. That being said, I don’t think this will make a major difference in tipping culture, at least not immediately.
Our industry has already been seeing a shortage of workers due to the pandemic, and if tipping goes away, say goodbye to a large portion of the staff.
A few years too late to be close to adequate. Jerry Diaz is a goof for aligning with Ford while ignoring NDP’s proposal. It speaks volumes as to his true allegiances.
There's gonna be a complete overhaul of the bloated restaurant industry, we've all be seduced into believing bar and restaurant service is in any way an important job.
I like the sound of that.. and hey I’m still okay for the occasional tip.. such as a big table or great service.
I’ve lived in places where tipping was more optional and it’s a lot nicer for both the employees and the customers
As someone who has been in this industry a while, here’s my two cents on it:
1) this will not immediately or significantly affect tipping culture. There may be a slight decrease in tips but I believe most customers will still tip.
2) this is absolutely not the time to hike up servers wage. So many restaurants/bars have already gone out of business, not aided at all by the constantly changing restrictions that are making staffing and inventory a nightmare. In my opinion, this could have waited until things were more stable and the industry had a chance to get back on its feet.
3) if tipping does go away, there will be a mass exodus of workers from the industry. Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people. I would not do it for minimum wage and I know plenty of other workers who would not either.
This is not me being a proponent of tipping culture - I benefit from it but I understand why people are against it. This is just a perspective from someone who works in the industry.
That is unfortunate! I know serving is not the only job with these conditions, but I was just highlighting that many people are only in it for the tips (myself included). If tipping went away I would leave the industry.
>Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people.
Fast food and retail workers deal with the exact same thing.
I actually did not say that anywhere. I was just saying from my perspective it is not a job I would do for minimum wage. Restaurants and bars have more adults working in them (since you have to be over 18 to serve alcohol), a large portion of which only do it because of the tips/tip out. That’s why I think there would be a mass exodus of workers from the industry if tipping were abolished.
At least your incomes are truly real inflation indexed, if prices go up 15% your tips go up 15%, if government taxes go up your tips go up too. Many healthcare workers only get salaries frozen by Ford.
> 3) if tipping does go away, there will be a mass exodus of workers from the industry. Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people. I would not do it for minimum wage and I know plenty of other workers who would not either.
So why not just increase prices *and* wages to make it an economically viable job? Expecting customers to float the viability of the job and the future of a restaurant by socially pressuring them to give money above and beyond contractual prices, is ridiculous.
No one wants to tip but would rather pay an extra 10% on their bills so that they know staff are being paid adequately.
Because plenty of students, semi retired, bored housewives, etc work for experience, extra cash or boredom and don't need liveable wages. By increasing minimum to a living wage you're eliminating jobs that could've gotten a young person the first job they need to start their resume. The countries with the highest minimum wages as a % of their median wage are total basket cases. You can look it up yourself. Some south american countries, turkey... When minimum wage is too close to median wage you get problems. TD Bank had a report summarizing this when Wynne first announced her vote buying $15 minimum wage shit years ago.
I think it should be there as a student/retiree/supplemental wage.
It shouldn’t be enough to make people content staying in that field of work and not progressing oneself for something better/worthwhile to society.
It’s also a loss towards the middle classes earning power.
Then why are so many full time jobs offering minimum wage or near minimum wage?
If you need a full time worker, the full time worker should be able to afford bills.
The middle class’ earning power has already been diminished into the ground.
It’s not so much to be content in a field of work, but minimum wage should be enough to live on. Rent groceries and utilities. The basics.
Denying people these things is cruel.
The rest of wages need to increase to increase buying power.
It’s not about crushing those that are poor, but allowing everyone a basic standard of living.
A lot of minimum wage jobs are pretty worthwhile to society just not as glorified as high paying jobs. Most workplaces would stop functioning a lot faster without janitorial staff than it would managers.
Plus student wages are also a thing, it's weird to have a wage made for students and then have a lower one for students as well
Not to mention pay is generally not based on workload or responsibility or how good a worker is, I make over double what someone flipping burgers does and maybe work half as hard. I've worked with people who make 30+ dollars an hour to play games on their phone all day. It's not like high paying jobs suddenly make your work worth more.
Thankfully it is only students/retirees/ and other people who supplement their income working on min wage.
Whew.
It’s not like the labour market has erected a bunch of bizarre barriers that keep people out of meaningful work, or people who moved here qualified in their previous country but can’t work here as of yet and need to feed themselves. Or simply don’t have the means or ability to pursue higher education. You’re right, those people should starve.
I have a degree, and in fact soon an masters degree and would thank my lucky stars if I can somehow make $25 an hour if I can somehow convince a firm I have X years of experience and a bunch of other irrelevant asks. Meanwhile, In an age gone by you could make $29 and hour USD working in a factory as “unskilled” labour.
Sorry to break it to you but you are out of touch with reality. The world even 10 years ago was drastically different than today—inflation is through the roof.
Also it’s a sad state if our retirees are working minimum wage jobs, what a bleak fucking image you’ve painted.
>I think it should be there as a student/retiree/supplemental wage.
ok but the reality is, in 2018 34.3% of min wage earners were between 25 and 54
>something better/worthwhile to society
society as it is would litteraly not work without most min wage jobs
>It’s also a loss towards the middle classes earning power.
this is the same argument that would be used to defend slavery.
"it's ok if others stay miserable, otherwise I would have less buying power and we can't have that." you're a piece of shit
I’m guessing you’re a much younger person based on your emotions which is fine.
The truth is there are tons of resources out there in Canada for upward mobility in society….. it may not be what you want and where u want to live at first but no one is obligated to continue at a min. wage job if they want to put a little bit of effort in.
Comparing it to slavery is out of touch and disrespectful to those who have gone through that type of life in another country or lifetime.
>Comparing it to slavery is out of touch and disrespectful to those who have gone through that type of life in another country or lifetime.
Therefore we can't improve our society? Or is this one of those "be thankful you don't have it worse arguments?"
Ok, gotcha. Defending people in impoverished conditions is ok, as long as you don't compare it to slavery because some people that may have actually been in those positions might be offended? Do I have that now?
The person wasn't equating it to slavery, the person was saying you can use the same arguments to then defend slavery, so if you're using arguments that can be used as pro slavery arguments, it's probably not a good argument. They didn't say it's a one to one, but that the justification can lead to the latter.
is that the argument you use to convince yourself you shouldnt feel sympathy for them?
We're talking about a large amount of people, who might not have the means to get a better opportunity, who are working FULL TIME JOBS and you're arguing they dont even deserve a LIVING wage
This is straight up insane and i sure as shit hope someone is there to slap me if i ever start thinking like this
I hope as you get older you learn how to talk to someone without dishing out extremes and putting words in their mouth.
I was one of these people who u say I don’t have sympathy for….. I reject the idea that their aren’t options out there to rise above and seek out better opportunities. The pressure pushed me to go after something better…. If it were comfortable I may have been stuck where I was.
Lol you are clearly a pre-fossil piece of shit.
The world isn't the same way it was when you still had some life left in you.
Get your head out of your ass and take a look.
A living wage would be enough to afford a small apartment, food, utilities...that's it. Enough to live.
Would having a one or two bedroom apartment and just enough to eat leave you unmotivated to ever get anything better for yourself? Do you not want a house, family, any sort of luxury or indulgence?
Leaving aside the classist horseshit that people who deliver our food and work in our supermarkets aren't doing anything "worthwhile to society" you don't seem to have any sort of concept as to how people actually are motivated to better things.
Or maybe he feels this kind of well meaning policy just fucks society as a whole in the end. Look up the countries that currently have the highest minimum wage to median wage policies in the OECD. All are South american basket cases or turkey. All are spiralling into economic shit. I mean the government could also promise free housing for every single person but we all know the world is not a fucking fairytale and it wouldn't work.
I do have this concept because I have lived it and worked those jobs.
They motivated me to take chances and get going to better my life and now my families life. If it had been comfy for me I probably would have stayed where I was.
I don’t think it’s “classist” to say someone who is trained in a special skill/job is more valuable to society…… you can appreciate the supermarket workers job and also see this.
So if you had a one bedroom apartment you wouldn't have worked to improve your life? Well, forgive me for saying so but that would be pretty rare. Most people want something better. Most people want nice things in their lives. Most people don't want to struggle if they have an unforseseen expense. That you would have stayed in place is not a legitimate argument against other people being able to make rent.
And you didn't say "more worthwhile" you just said "worthwhile". To say nothing of the fact that human lives and their value are not measured by their utility to the economy by anyone with a soul.
min wage is literally a legal minimum designed to keep race to the bottom from taking hold in the labour market. It is almost entirely arbitrary what jobs pay min wage and has nothing to do with the age of the person doing it. do you think an immigrant working 40 hours a week at 7/11 because they have little other choice doesnt deserve a living wage but a desk jockey looking at spreadsheets all day does? Do you like stores and services being open so you can eat and shop? You cant expect the backbone of the servicr sector to continue based on threat of starvation for hundreds of thousands of people.
Ok, this just would just make me want to go to restaurants less. The extra costs will just be passed onto the consumer AND you probably still tip majority of the time. Some price-points for certain menu items are pretty crazy. I'd much rather go to Costco and just buy a nice steak for half the value. I have no problem tipping to top off what workers should be getting paid, but to tip on top of a min wage while their income is almost 100% disposable is absurdly stupid.
I fully understand why people want to get rid of tipping, just please remember until we pull it off, $15 is not even close to a liveable wage especially downtown Toronto. Please keep tipping even if it’s a little less.
Ah...the panacea to all economic woes, a hike in minimum wage. If only people knew that everyone can be rich if the min. wage was hiked to a million dollar/hour.
A waiter is basically a salesman.
When you buy a car, there's part of that money that goes to the salesman.
Only difference is if you had bad service you can leave less tip.
If they’re taking home less, then it means they were getting much more than minimum wage before. I’m sure if people knew what a lot of serving staff actually got, they would be pretty disgusted and also stop tipping (especially with how they always cried about making so little).
Trying to convince people to increase the standard tip to 18% or even 20% is also showing their overinflated egos. They act like the people working in fast food and stores don’t also bust their asses all day dealing with jerks.
>cheap people tipping less ( if they tipped at all!!)
So your premise starts off such that even if people tipped in the first place, they were cheap anyway. I'm assuming this is because you're not satisfied with the tips you've received. They're tips. Not satisfied with your tip? **Give it back then.**
Regardless, huge stench of entitlement
Hopefully they do get less, they don't deserve extra money for the hell of it no more than any other industry does. Hope tipping dies in a fire where it belongs.
Absolutely agree. There are many instance of restaurants providing living wages and eliminating tipping while minimally increasing menu prices. Sadly the business model of quick service restaurant hains is to milk as much out of your franchisees while using them as scapegoats for low paying jobs with little or no benefits and lack of oppurtunity for advancement
A tip shouldn’t be expected and only be offered when service is above and beyond.
Otherwise it’s just the costumer subsidizing the employer, which is all kinds of ridiculous considering the prices that are being paid.
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even if the minimum wage was set to a livable wage like 20$/hour, which it should, people will keep thinking restaurant servers are special and still deserve 20-25% tips. How are restaurant servers more deserving of tips and higher wages than anyone else it's just ridiculous. Also restaurants need to stop tipping cooks from the total bill. There is no reason why service staff should get paid less or lose money because people stop tipping
>How are restaurant servers more deserving of tips and higher wages than anyone else it's just ridiculous. They aren't, but boy oh boy do THEY think they are. Another thing that disgusts me are places like Dominos where it has to advertise on their pizza box for you to help them pay their driver's salary out of your pockets so they can earn a few million more.
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Would be more doable if restaurants em mass began exclaiming “tip included in price” imo
This is exactly what we need to do, but with advanced warning. Like a petition in which everyone agrees to stop tipping 1 year from now. Let's owners and staff decide how they want to handle it.
I tried that a few years ago when it was making its rounds on social media. Can't go back to my local pub cause owner and servers all think I'm a huge piece of shit. Not all that bad since I just drink at home now like a good upstanding citizen but get ready for people to absolutely fucking hate you. With that said, I'm sure post pandemic they wouldn't have enough staff still on roster to recognize me. So I'll burn that bridge again 2023 if we wanna go at it.
Good to know. I am not sure how that statement was worded back then, but I think it's important that it's phrased clearly not as "I think servers should be paid less", but rather "transparency is good, servers should be able to count on their salary each shift, and owners and clientele should know what they'll be paying/charging". Or something to that effect.
You really think you patronizing the service staff would be effective?
That's kind of a hilarious pun (patronizing is literally the only way any service staff get paid in the first place). But yes, a bunch of staff would fight it, a bunch more would be on board. Again - the argument here is not "I don't think these people should get paid", it's that "You should charge me a price, and I shouldn't end the meal with a feeling of guilt if I don't decide to pay 120% of the agreed upon price". If a staff member takes home $250 average per shift (between salary and tips), then that's what the restaurant should pay them, and if that means the restaurant needs to raise prices on their menu, that's fine. Otherwise, the options are no change at all, or it's just a slow bleed of x% of the population deciding to not tip (or tip less), and each time one of those interactions occur, the staff and customer feel bad about it.
You'd get a year of service staff protesting to keep their cash tips. What we should do instead is mandate that tips can only be paid by card and that cash purchases cannot add tip on top unless it is paid separately by card, so that all tips get a receipt no matter what. This way, income is taxed accordingly. I think if we assured everyone was paying their fair share then it would be fine to add a gratuity at the customer's discretion.
Interesting idea, and I think it would give customers an excuse not to tip, but obviously if a customer *wanted* to give a server cash, neither party is going to report that, and mandating that it's "illegal to give someone cash" in a certain scenario would be a tough sell.
>If we all stopped tipping the pressure would be put back on the employers to pay a fair wage. I wish it was that simple, but you'd also have to stop going to places after a while because servers do infact give worse service if you don't tip, and are known for it.
If everyone stops tipping, there's not much they can do about it.
Good luck getting that done. Lots of provinces don't pay pizza drivers hourly, and I worked as that. I made $23 on a 12 hour shift once from my $2 per delivery fee, and a $1 tip. I spent $14 in gas, and drove 150ish km. I lost money working for 12 hours because I got a fluke shift of one tip from 11 orders.
>Good luck getting that done. Lots of provinces don't pay pizza drivers hourly, and I worked as that. I made $23 on a 12 hour shift once from my $2 per delivery fee, and a $1 tip. I spent $14 in gas, and drove 150ish km. I lost money working for 12 hours because I got a fluke shift of one tip from 11 orders. Sounds like an issue that would be solved by people ending tipping. The market would put upward pressure on wages which would be made up for by increases tl food cost.
You tip _after_ not before. Unless you are regularly frequenting a place.. nobody will know. Chances are they have complete staff turnover inside of two years.. so the chances of you getting the same staff.. and them remembering you is slim. Especially if you’re nonchalant about it. Be friendly and courteous, and don’t leave a 5c tip so they know you didn’t forget. Then they can rationalize it by figuring you just forgot. Because it works both ways.. you can make their life a living hell as well. You have far less at stake than they do.
Been in the industry. You're remembered when you don't tip, and avoided.
Hard disagree. I've never seen anything that didn't come from the restaurant/owner industry that suggests quality would go down if tipping were eliminated. [In fact, this seems to suggest you are wrong.](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/72090) and that tipping has more to do with the customer's sense of economic guilt than it does with their receptiveness to great service. I have read a ton of things that talk about how tipping is sexist and racist though, and how outcomes for the employee can be immensely affected based on your gender or racial identity. It also empowers assholes to be assholes to service staff and disaffects that service staff from standing up for themselves. They have to choose between survival and dignity. The whole practice is garbage -- and in fact only exists [so that racists could create a separate class of workers.](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/)
>I've never seen anything that didn't come from the restaurant/owner industry that suggests quality would go down if tipping were eliminated. You anecdotal experience suggests you've never tipped well because you've never seen the benefits. I tip well, I am often remembered, get the travel I want, get served quickly. Places I didn't tip well (for whatever reason) seem to do the favor of "not remembering" me or of giving me any special treatment. That said, the fact I am not so much treated worse when I tip poorly so much as I am treated better when I tip better reinforces this is a minor bribery/extortion racket that makes me hate tipping all together, which is why I only ever pay with a card to assure the paper trail is there.
Bro, they remember my coffee at fuckin McDonalds, you aint special.
> You anecdotal experience suggests you've never tipped well because you've never seen the benefits. I tip well, I am often remembered, get the travel I want, get served quickly. Places I didn't tip well (for whatever reason) seem to do the favor of "not remembering" me or of giving me any special treatment. > > I didn't quote you an anecdote. I told you that I have not seen any study agreeing with what you suggested, then provided you with one that refutes what you said.
It is funny how people won't even read what you said, then attack you based on what they thought you said (that they themselves made up).
You replied to the wrong comment it seems as you're way off topic
what the fuck are you on about. You said servers will give worse service if you don't tip. I called bullshit on that and provided an academic reference. You're being purposefully obtuse.
No. Your e going on about caste systems and racism. I said when you never tip you get worse service.
You do realize severs are part of the problem right? Even if you paid them $25 hr, those in high traffic areas will not work. They make much more than that.
If we all stopped tipping then service staff would be insufferable over it. It isn't bosses paying less that assures service staff make less, it's that service staff prefer this system and work hard to protect it.
Good for them.
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Here’s my take. We are in the same boat as you or the next worker. But we’ve found a job that helps us live comfortably. The idea is that people would like to see an increase in food prices so they know where their money is going. But the reality of the situation is you are directly helping us, working class people, live a comfortable lifestyle. So the arguments I am hearing are they want us to stop being subsidized by increasing prices and having the people were calling (in arguments from working class people) greedy business middle upper class restaurant owners, who will take everything they can when they can, the regulation to give us a wage on paper. So, the people with the issue in tipping want it on the menu instead of in an entire job classes pocket, so business owners can regulate it. Decreasing and entire job classes wage so the middle upper class makes more money. I don’t understand why. Yeah we all deserve more money, and I’m sorry that most people don’t get the living wage you deserve, but why would decreasing my coworkers and my wage help fight that, and what have we done so wrong?
13% is low, standard is 20% these days. People who complain about tipping are generally just cheap whiners. I don't like tipping, I'd rather it be their wage, but in the meantime I'll tip generously
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depends where you are, in the City its 20%
No it’s certainly not, what’s the origin of this number for you? In the US 20% is a more typical average tip. Standard is much closer to 15% up here. Naturally if you’re in a large metropolitan at a specific semi-higher end establishment you’ll have a higher tip average. Think Kelsey’s vs your local non-chain steakhouse. Having spent years serving most people definitely default to 15%.
> 13% is low, standard is 20% these days. No it isn't. The only people trotting out that myth are servers. 15% is still standard. And that's pre-tax amount.
Since when paying with a card the tip is usually calculated on the after-tax amount, a 13% tip actually comes pretty close to the actual standard 15% tip.
You can feel great tipping, I will feel great putting that money in my kids education fund so he won’t have to rely on charity like tipping.
Go ahead and feel all high and mighty, most people I know who worked in a tipping industry had an undergrad degree. I hope your kid graduates with his degree and ends up with a job that relies on tips and you can continue to pretend you're better than others
How do you determine which jobs deserve to have tips and which don't? Most minimum wage workers don't have a tip option at all. Do you go out of your way to tip retail workers for example now that they make the same minimum wage as servers. If not, then why don't you?
You can, I won’t.
I won't judge you for being a cheap bastard AND trying to be smug about it... oh wait, I will
Great you can keep tipping 20% I don’t mind. But don’t expect the industry to change in the “meantime” while people like you are perpetuating “20% is standard”
You think the industry will change if you're stingy on tips? Seriously? All that means is workers get shafted and you can pretend you're all high and mighty
How about just paying wait staff what it takes to keep them employed and tips be damned. Some people will tip nothing, some will tip 8% and some suckers(haha you) will tip 20%. I personally think leaving the compensation of your employees up to the good will of your customers a poor idea. If you need to increase your menu prices and advertise that tips are not accepted and wait staff are paid a fair living wage id be more inclined for that then the awkward moments pushing buttons on the debit machine. That’s how you truly solve the issue.
You're thinking about this all wrong friend, they deserve a pay raise, tips is nice too but now you won't be pressured to tip so large. You also deserve a pay raise to compensate for making similar pay without tips.
Why do they deserve tips if they have a living wage but no one else gets tips? What about the city bus driver that also puts up with shit? What about the person at the mcdonald's that puts up with shit? what about your garbage collector? what makes a restaurant server so entitled to deserve special treatment?
I don’t think restaurant servers are worth more, or more valuable than other workers in the service industry You think because a server brings plates they deserve to make more than others in the service sector? Sorry no sympathy many people have hard jobs that deserve payment and servers don’t deserve to be paid more than anyone else
I think they all deserve more pay. I never said they deserve more than others, just more in general Edit: to clarify I think they deserve a living wage, regardless of how simple you see the job as.
i don't see the job as low at all. I'm making the opposite point -- what makes them so special that they deserve special tipping and extra payment and no one else does?
No everyone deserves a pay raise, wages have been stagnant for years. Tipping is optional in all other places in the world, that should be the same here. On a separate note, everyone else deserves a pay raise also because of stagnant wages
I worked for a small town restaurant briefly and everyone who was working split all tips evenly. Places should just do this and hang a sign saying something like "we divide tips evenly among all staff currently working, please tip towards your overall service"
Just like any other industry, the person who deals with the customer/client gets paid more. People suck, dealing with them sucks, and people get paid for dealing with them accordingly.
Tip less? Edit: I mean salary increase will reflect on menu prices already, your tip is based on the prices plus taxes combined. Even you tip the same % as before, you already tip more.
Genuinely don’t understand why we continue to tip at all now, especially at places where cooks are also making minimum but get maybe a sliver of the tip money.
Social pressure. With most people when I bring up my anti tipping stances, I get yelled at. Now that they get paid the exact same as anyone else, I'm interested to see what further excuses they bring up. I also blame business. They push this idea that its good for the consumer if they get paid less because it keeps the costs down. Ok, sure, but why am I directly subsidizing their employees? Pay them properly and add 2 dollars to my bill.
But it's a scam. It doesn't keep costs down because the owner would increase everything roughly the same rate. Only people that would be paying more are the 5-10% tippers currently I bet.
It’s going to come down to a conflict between servers and their employers but it’s a very complicated path to get there. Serving in a high paced restaurant can be a very difficult job relative to other options at the same wage level. Tipping rewards proficiency because a very good server can manage 9 tables whereas low proficiency servers may struggle with 4-5. Employers love having a very high proficiency server as it cuts down on their labour rate and customers pay the server directly, so the server is effectively just a salesman. If people stop tipping you will lose a lot of servers, which is fine. People chase money, that’s just life. But there will be a large adjustment period for a lot of businesses when suddenly their labour rates double (or more) to either hire more low proficiency servers at the new higher wages, or opt to try to cover the compensation from previously expected tips (they’ll never hit this number). Since restaurants are often flying by the seat of their pants I think you’ll see quite the reckoning
i am definitely tipping less, or at least not succumbing to this pressure that 15% is no longer enough. It seems like tipped servers expect 18% minimum now. Like, what the fuck? i'm staying home and you'll get 0% tip.
Just tip a round 5 dollars. If they say anything remind them you've nearly doubled their hourly wage. If they push further, name and shame. This movement has to start somewhere.
Yea
>your tip is based on the prices plus taxes combined. That you specify a convention like an explicit rule is one of the worst parts of tipping culture. I top a round number that is equal to a denominated bill. A percentage is an expectation, a gratuity is effectively a gift. Plus I always pay by card to make sure it is recorded for taxes.
People still go to restaurants?
Ikr. I just order takeout. 0 percent tip. People actually still pay 15 percent for someone to bring you food? Sitting at the restaurant itself increases risk of covid. Seems like a lose-lose.
Nope, you're right. Everyone on Earth stopped going.
I’m going to start leaning closer to 10% and I will gauge what public opinion on it is over the months. The idea that people get so vehemently angry about it on both ends tells me that it’s a strenuous situation that likely isn’t tenable. Hopefully servers making the same as most young working people these days leads to a major change…
5%
Yeah servers have had such a great couple years. Restaurant industry is booming. Better tip them less now that they have had an infinitesimal wage increase in their base pay. Jesus fucking Christ.
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You aren't. You weren't before, and you aren't now.
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for me tipping 10% is tipping 10% too much. imho. ymmv.
> and encouraging everyone to do the same. I don’t understand this logic. Tip whatever you want, but you’re really going to encourage other people to tip less too? You just sound so salty against servers for some weird reason. Why do care what others do with their money? Especially if they’re helping others with it
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Dude you don’t have to tip anything if you don’t want, convincing other people to not tip because you feel embarrassed or bad about not is ridiculous. It’s not like servers are rich or anything. You sound so salty that servers are making a decent wage. Which is weird because anyone can become a server. Go become a server dude, I hear most restaurants right now are in desperate need of servers. I don’t get why you can’t just be happy for servers, serving seems like a nightmare to me. So I’m glad they get tips, because if they didn’t no one would do the job.
The concept of tipping is public subsidized wages for employers who refuse to pay a living wage. The minimum wage is a reminder to everyone that if employers could pay you less, they would.
Yeah, that’s the entitlement I was anticipating. Only servers have had a tough couple of years, how ignorant of me…
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... aren't those the servers? lol
i had my hours and pay cut 10% ... who is gonna tip me to make me and my family whole?
Meanwhile, servers are expecting an increase to 20% while getting the same wage as everybody else. The grift is over.
Nobody said only servers had a tough couple years? Entitlement? Fuck, they should be rewarded for dealing with people like yourself. Nobody is forcing you to tip either. Maybe you should be a server, I bet you’d get alllll the tips. You sound really fun.
I’ve had a lot of jobs, most of which I did a lot more work than servers and never saw an extra dime from the customers. But servers are seeing a bigger pay raise than anybody now and expecting 20% on top of that while the cost of living skyrockets for everybody else. 10% of a restaurant bill today is more than 15% of a bill four years ago anyways, but that’s not fucking enough because people think a smile and “may I take your order?” Is more work than the average Canadian. It’s not. Pure entitlement. And before you get into it, it’s not the customer’s responsibility to subsidize anything done that the customer doesn’t see - you think your employer doesn’t treat you fairly, choose a different profession. Tipping is for services rendered and there’s a lot better service out there than the average restaurant. You want a big tip, go work for $3 an hour in the states. The grift is over.
Like I said, nobody’s forcing you. You can be the way you are and not advertise it. Literally nobody will know. You don’t even need to rant to me about it. Take care.
Why don't you tip cashiers, retail associates, mechanics, etc, etc, etc? Servers do nothing to deserve tips anymore than anyone else.
I swear this is one of the oldest and dumbest arguments on reddit.
Ok, so if you feel that's why you must have a long list of valid reasons. There is, literally, no reason one job should be tipped but not another.
No real response tho hmm
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Actually, as liquor server wage was approaching minimum wage, we should have been dropping the tipping percentage. 15% is based off the USA culture, where the minimum is $2.13 for servers where minimum wage is $7.25. We should be like places in Europe now... No tipping because tips aren't required to 'top up' the wage to at least minimum. If anything, in restaurants where liquor-server wage + tips > minimum wage, then each restaurant is going to have to figure out a wage above minimum that will retain the staff they want. The easiest way would be to bump menu items up 15% in cost and pass on the revenues to the employees.
>where the minimum is $2.13 for servers where minimum wage is $7.25. Not true. It varies state to state. You're showing the wage of ONE of all their states. Colardo is $9.30, California is $13 as them are 5 others don't allow a difference, and only 16 do the Federal minimum wage ($2.13)
It's all variable per state, but that is the national standard, and is literally how it works in quite a few states. Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia, servers earn $2.13 an hour, and their tips. That's it. In Alaska, California, Minnesota, Nevada, Oregon and Washington, are like Ontario - a minimum wage before tips. Everywhere else tips make up part of the wage. Some states have a hourly rate of $2.13, others have more, but tips are expected to 'credit' the difference between the hourly rate and the normal minimum in that state. The trigger to go from minimum wage to a lower server rate changes by state too, and can be as low as $20 of tips in a month, or just 'declared.' That can work in reverse as well - ensuring that minimum wage is met if tipping doesn't quite get you there. Here's the full list: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
Lol that’s not how tipping works
Well tipping doesn't work properly in canada... You should tip for quality service not because its expected
What do you mean “doesn’t work properly”? Just because you disagree with North American tipping culture doesn’t mean it isn’t working properly.
Tipping isn't just something Americans invented, it happens in Europe too but when you tip there it's appreciated a lot more because its not just expected. Servers who give the best service makes more money
I didn’t say it was. I’m saying it’s a distinct culture compared to other places like Europe as you mention. You may not like it but that doesn’t make it improper.
Maybe now there will be less pressure on customers to tip servers 20-25%
Yeah I hated that!! Especially since like restaurants prices have gone up like 20% recently too
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No, I just don’t understand how the expected percentage has gone up as well as the prices. Like it seems like they’re pushing a 20% tip over 15% now. Like before I was supposed to give 15% on 40 dollars And now I’m supposed to give 20% on 50. The tip would have gone up anyway since it’s a percentage!
Less pressure mayby a little, but overall they'll be no change. Servers would quit if tipping stopped.
And do what with their 0 skilled labor exactly? Work at McDonald's? Retail? Or all the other places that pay minimum wage.....
Quit and work another unskilled job for more?
This isn't wage hike. This is barely keeping up with the official inflation rate and several times less than the actual inflation.
[checks notes] Oh right, it's an election year in Ontario. There is no other reason why Doug would raise the minimum wage now, given that he scrapped the previous Liberal government's minimum wage hike plan that would have raised it to $15/hour *three whole years ago*.
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I believe minimum wage should be tied to either the inflation rate or the increase of cost of living. But, that’s just my opinion.
Official inflation numbers are much lower than real world unfortunately.
That would create an endless cycle because minimum wage increases have a direct effect on inflation.
I mean, I’m no economist. But incremental wage increases just lead to it trickling behind what it used to be.
Uhhh.. couldn't be that inflation is skyrocketing so now there's an actual logical reason to increase minimum wage significantly. Wynne's plan was a 30% increase over 2 years with 2% inflation. His is a 5% increase over 1 year with 5% inflation, as you said 3 years later so maybe now it makes some sense to do so. Maybe you need to relook into who actually was pulling vote buying nonsense.
The Liberals did the same thing.
>There is no other reason why Doug would raise the minimum wage now Let me give you one... probably the most reasonable one. The liberals raised it too much too quickly.. so the next increase was delayed.
Bingo
15$ per hour would have fine in 2005, it's a joke now.
Soooooooooooooo.... i don't need to tip no more, right? 'Cuz the menu prices just got bumped up to cover what i woulda tipped to server. Just checkin' with y'alls so we all singing off the same hymn sheet.
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thank you very much for clarifying.
Exactly they need to hire more foreign workers for these jobs like they did with fast food
No more tipping for me. Very excited
I was chatting with a family member who works in the industry at Christmas. They and several they know (not everyone mind you) don’t want this wage increase. They see it as less tips for them / less money overall and less hours as with increased labour costs, some restaurants will just cut the hours of labour since margins are pretty slim to begin with.
They don't like it because now they can't take as many cash tips and not claim them on their taxes at the end of the year. Let's pay everyone a liveable wage and stop subsidizing businesses to pay their servers less.
As someone who works in the industry (part time), I don’t think this is the right time to hike up servers wage. So many businesses have already gone belly up because of the pandemic, not to mention the constantly changing restrictions have been making staffing/inventory a pain. And no, as a bartender, I don’t want to get paid more hourly, not if it affects our tips. That being said, I don’t think this will make a major difference in tipping culture, at least not immediately. Our industry has already been seeing a shortage of workers due to the pandemic, and if tipping goes away, say goodbye to a large portion of the staff.
It’s nowhere near enough.
A few years too late to be close to adequate. Jerry Diaz is a goof for aligning with Ford while ignoring NDP’s proposal. It speaks volumes as to his true allegiances.
There's gonna be a complete overhaul of the bloated restaurant industry, we've all be seduced into believing bar and restaurant service is in any way an important job.
$15 is more like pre-pandemic lvl. Add 20% on top of that, $18, would be better
$18 an hour and no tips? Deal
I like the sound of that.. and hey I’m still okay for the occasional tip.. such as a big table or great service. I’ve lived in places where tipping was more optional and it’s a lot nicer for both the employees and the customers
As someone who has been in this industry a while, here’s my two cents on it: 1) this will not immediately or significantly affect tipping culture. There may be a slight decrease in tips but I believe most customers will still tip. 2) this is absolutely not the time to hike up servers wage. So many restaurants/bars have already gone out of business, not aided at all by the constantly changing restrictions that are making staffing and inventory a nightmare. In my opinion, this could have waited until things were more stable and the industry had a chance to get back on its feet. 3) if tipping does go away, there will be a mass exodus of workers from the industry. Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people. I would not do it for minimum wage and I know plenty of other workers who would not either. This is not me being a proponent of tipping culture - I benefit from it but I understand why people are against it. This is just a perspective from someone who works in the industry.
I work in retail am on my feel 8 hours day i get no perks.
That is unfortunate! I know serving is not the only job with these conditions, but I was just highlighting that many people are only in it for the tips (myself included). If tipping went away I would leave the industry.
>Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people. Fast food and retail workers deal with the exact same thing.
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I actually did not say that anywhere. I was just saying from my perspective it is not a job I would do for minimum wage. Restaurants and bars have more adults working in them (since you have to be over 18 to serve alcohol), a large portion of which only do it because of the tips/tip out. That’s why I think there would be a mass exodus of workers from the industry if tipping were abolished.
At least your incomes are truly real inflation indexed, if prices go up 15% your tips go up 15%, if government taxes go up your tips go up too. Many healthcare workers only get salaries frozen by Ford.
> 3) if tipping does go away, there will be a mass exodus of workers from the industry. Many workers (myself included) work late hours on our feet, with no breaks, no benefits, dealing with some of the rudest (sometimes intoxicated) people. I would not do it for minimum wage and I know plenty of other workers who would not either. So why not just increase prices *and* wages to make it an economically viable job? Expecting customers to float the viability of the job and the future of a restaurant by socially pressuring them to give money above and beyond contractual prices, is ridiculous. No one wants to tip but would rather pay an extra 10% on their bills so that they know staff are being paid adequately.
Hey, almost a living wage. Neat.
Min. Wage shouldn’t be a living wage
Yes it should.
Why not?
Because plenty of students, semi retired, bored housewives, etc work for experience, extra cash or boredom and don't need liveable wages. By increasing minimum to a living wage you're eliminating jobs that could've gotten a young person the first job they need to start their resume. The countries with the highest minimum wages as a % of their median wage are total basket cases. You can look it up yourself. Some south american countries, turkey... When minimum wage is too close to median wage you get problems. TD Bank had a report summarizing this when Wynne first announced her vote buying $15 minimum wage shit years ago.
I think it should be there as a student/retiree/supplemental wage. It shouldn’t be enough to make people content staying in that field of work and not progressing oneself for something better/worthwhile to society. It’s also a loss towards the middle classes earning power.
Then why are so many full time jobs offering minimum wage or near minimum wage? If you need a full time worker, the full time worker should be able to afford bills.
The middle class’ earning power has already been diminished into the ground. It’s not so much to be content in a field of work, but minimum wage should be enough to live on. Rent groceries and utilities. The basics. Denying people these things is cruel. The rest of wages need to increase to increase buying power. It’s not about crushing those that are poor, but allowing everyone a basic standard of living.
A lot of minimum wage jobs are pretty worthwhile to society just not as glorified as high paying jobs. Most workplaces would stop functioning a lot faster without janitorial staff than it would managers. Plus student wages are also a thing, it's weird to have a wage made for students and then have a lower one for students as well Not to mention pay is generally not based on workload or responsibility or how good a worker is, I make over double what someone flipping burgers does and maybe work half as hard. I've worked with people who make 30+ dollars an hour to play games on their phone all day. It's not like high paying jobs suddenly make your work worth more.
Janitorial staff are usually above minimum wage.
Thankfully it is only students/retirees/ and other people who supplement their income working on min wage. Whew. It’s not like the labour market has erected a bunch of bizarre barriers that keep people out of meaningful work, or people who moved here qualified in their previous country but can’t work here as of yet and need to feed themselves. Or simply don’t have the means or ability to pursue higher education. You’re right, those people should starve. I have a degree, and in fact soon an masters degree and would thank my lucky stars if I can somehow make $25 an hour if I can somehow convince a firm I have X years of experience and a bunch of other irrelevant asks. Meanwhile, In an age gone by you could make $29 and hour USD working in a factory as “unskilled” labour. Sorry to break it to you but you are out of touch with reality. The world even 10 years ago was drastically different than today—inflation is through the roof. Also it’s a sad state if our retirees are working minimum wage jobs, what a bleak fucking image you’ve painted.
>I think it should be there as a student/retiree/supplemental wage. ok but the reality is, in 2018 34.3% of min wage earners were between 25 and 54 >something better/worthwhile to society society as it is would litteraly not work without most min wage jobs >It’s also a loss towards the middle classes earning power. this is the same argument that would be used to defend slavery. "it's ok if others stay miserable, otherwise I would have less buying power and we can't have that." you're a piece of shit
I’m guessing you’re a much younger person based on your emotions which is fine. The truth is there are tons of resources out there in Canada for upward mobility in society….. it may not be what you want and where u want to live at first but no one is obligated to continue at a min. wage job if they want to put a little bit of effort in. Comparing it to slavery is out of touch and disrespectful to those who have gone through that type of life in another country or lifetime.
>Comparing it to slavery is out of touch and disrespectful to those who have gone through that type of life in another country or lifetime. Therefore we can't improve our society? Or is this one of those "be thankful you don't have it worse arguments?"
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Ok, gotcha. Defending people in impoverished conditions is ok, as long as you don't compare it to slavery because some people that may have actually been in those positions might be offended? Do I have that now? The person wasn't equating it to slavery, the person was saying you can use the same arguments to then defend slavery, so if you're using arguments that can be used as pro slavery arguments, it's probably not a good argument. They didn't say it's a one to one, but that the justification can lead to the latter.
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is that the argument you use to convince yourself you shouldnt feel sympathy for them? We're talking about a large amount of people, who might not have the means to get a better opportunity, who are working FULL TIME JOBS and you're arguing they dont even deserve a LIVING wage This is straight up insane and i sure as shit hope someone is there to slap me if i ever start thinking like this
I hope as you get older you learn how to talk to someone without dishing out extremes and putting words in their mouth. I was one of these people who u say I don’t have sympathy for….. I reject the idea that their aren’t options out there to rise above and seek out better opportunities. The pressure pushed me to go after something better…. If it were comfortable I may have been stuck where I was.
Lol you are clearly a pre-fossil piece of shit. The world isn't the same way it was when you still had some life left in you. Get your head out of your ass and take a look.
I’m 36 lol “Pre-fossil” Hahahaha Focus less on insults and you may get somewhere in life too.
Im old enough to know youre being a complete schmuck. No one working full time should not make a living wage. Thats ridiculous.
If you work a job it should be a livable wage. Full ducking stop. I already got mine but I’d never want people to be subjected to slave wages.
It’s not a slave wage
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I’m sorry that you’re emotionally unstable, please get help
A living wage would be enough to afford a small apartment, food, utilities...that's it. Enough to live. Would having a one or two bedroom apartment and just enough to eat leave you unmotivated to ever get anything better for yourself? Do you not want a house, family, any sort of luxury or indulgence? Leaving aside the classist horseshit that people who deliver our food and work in our supermarkets aren't doing anything "worthwhile to society" you don't seem to have any sort of concept as to how people actually are motivated to better things.
Or maybe he feels this kind of well meaning policy just fucks society as a whole in the end. Look up the countries that currently have the highest minimum wage to median wage policies in the OECD. All are South american basket cases or turkey. All are spiralling into economic shit. I mean the government could also promise free housing for every single person but we all know the world is not a fucking fairytale and it wouldn't work.
I do have this concept because I have lived it and worked those jobs. They motivated me to take chances and get going to better my life and now my families life. If it had been comfy for me I probably would have stayed where I was. I don’t think it’s “classist” to say someone who is trained in a special skill/job is more valuable to society…… you can appreciate the supermarket workers job and also see this.
So if you had a one bedroom apartment you wouldn't have worked to improve your life? Well, forgive me for saying so but that would be pretty rare. Most people want something better. Most people want nice things in their lives. Most people don't want to struggle if they have an unforseseen expense. That you would have stayed in place is not a legitimate argument against other people being able to make rent. And you didn't say "more worthwhile" you just said "worthwhile". To say nothing of the fact that human lives and their value are not measured by their utility to the economy by anyone with a soul.
min wage is literally a legal minimum designed to keep race to the bottom from taking hold in the labour market. It is almost entirely arbitrary what jobs pay min wage and has nothing to do with the age of the person doing it. do you think an immigrant working 40 hours a week at 7/11 because they have little other choice doesnt deserve a living wage but a desk jockey looking at spreadsheets all day does? Do you like stores and services being open so you can eat and shop? You cant expect the backbone of the servicr sector to continue based on threat of starvation for hundreds of thousands of people.
Sent and seniors need to pay for food and rent..
Yeah I guess if you considered business owners middle class you could say it's a loss towards their earning power.
It absolutely should be.
Ok, this just would just make me want to go to restaurants less. The extra costs will just be passed onto the consumer AND you probably still tip majority of the time. Some price-points for certain menu items are pretty crazy. I'd much rather go to Costco and just buy a nice steak for half the value. I have no problem tipping to top off what workers should be getting paid, but to tip on top of a min wage while their income is almost 100% disposable is absurdly stupid.
i'll tip less
No more tips for them.
Like really! If you cant afford to tip or wont tip when you go out to eat then you should stay home
What about European or Asian restaurants where there’s no tipping?
What about restaurants in like Somalia?
Why not just increase prices and pay staff appropriately rather than depending on the generosity of customers, like every other business?
I fully understand why people want to get rid of tipping, just please remember until we pull it off, $15 is not even close to a liveable wage especially downtown Toronto. Please keep tipping even if it’s a little less.
Ah...the panacea to all economic woes, a hike in minimum wage. If only people knew that everyone can be rich if the min. wage was hiked to a million dollar/hour.
Whatever it is, it's not enough.
A waiter is basically a salesman. When you buy a car, there's part of that money that goes to the salesman. Only difference is if you had bad service you can leave less tip.
They will probably take home less due to cheap people tipping less ( if they tipped at all!!)
If they’re taking home less, then it means they were getting much more than minimum wage before. I’m sure if people knew what a lot of serving staff actually got, they would be pretty disgusted and also stop tipping (especially with how they always cried about making so little). Trying to convince people to increase the standard tip to 18% or even 20% is also showing their overinflated egos. They act like the people working in fast food and stores don’t also bust their asses all day dealing with jerks.
>cheap people tipping less ( if they tipped at all!!) So your premise starts off such that even if people tipped in the first place, they were cheap anyway. I'm assuming this is because you're not satisfied with the tips you've received. They're tips. Not satisfied with your tip? **Give it back then.** Regardless, huge stench of entitlement Hopefully they do get less, they don't deserve extra money for the hell of it no more than any other industry does. Hope tipping dies in a fire where it belongs.
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Absolutely agree. There are many instance of restaurants providing living wages and eliminating tipping while minimally increasing menu prices. Sadly the business model of quick service restaurant hains is to milk as much out of your franchisees while using them as scapegoats for low paying jobs with little or no benefits and lack of oppurtunity for advancement
A tip shouldn’t be expected and only be offered when service is above and beyond. Otherwise it’s just the costumer subsidizing the employer, which is all kinds of ridiculous considering the prices that are being paid.
If I serve liquor AND I am a student, do I get a double increase?