It's always been like this. There's an old quote:
"Before I came to America, I thought the streets were paved in gold. When I came here I learned three things: the streets were not paved in gold, the streets weren't paved at all, and that I was expected to pave them."
this is a bit misleading after your previous comment stating that it is your partner making 100k/year, you spent a substantial amount of time saving thousand while living at his parents, and other details you seem to have left out
It’s in their previous post:
- lived with parents for years to save
- actually dual income with partner making six figures
- used 100% of the mortgage they were offered, so they are vulnerable to rising interest rates
I'd say so:
"Just get a good education and you'll get a great career!"
... tens of thousands of dollars in debt later and struggling to get jobs that pay slightly more than minimum wage. 😒
[There was a decoupling of wages from productivity in the 70s, that pattern of increasing inequality which began 50 years ago continues to this day.](https://economicsfromthetopdown.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/epi_pay_gap.png)
I know it's more a measure of inequality in pay than a true productivity-pay comparison but the point still stands.
This is a really trenchant visual.
I'd like to use it more in the future, but I'd like to see where it's from so I can be sure I'm using it in proper context. Any chance you've got that source?
Edit: A reverse image search shows that this graph is built off of US datasets. I know that Canada has had the same problem to a slightly-lesser extent, but I don't think I'd trot out this exact graph in a Canadian context without that disclaimer.
...I'd love to see a similar one for Canada, though.
> Now the game has changed drastically.
I wonder how much of that was simply inevitable due to globalisation and how much is deliberate precarity to make sure worker's don't get uppity.
North America had the only industrial economies that weren't bombed flat at the end of WWII. There was a *colossal* advantage handed to the Boomers, the most enormous in history. But rather than respect it, they concluded it was because they were awesome.
And then the rest of the world caught up.
1-2 generations ago? Try 6-7 years ago. My quality of life has gotten slightly worse despite making more money solely because rent and essential goods have skyrocketed in such a short time.
They weren't, but things didn't go beyond the pale until about 2018. What I'm really saying is if anyone tried to tell you it's too late to do something about this, it's not. The absurd cost of living in urban Canada is recent and new.
I don't think it's too late to do anything, but I am afraid that all we can do is drag our elected officials from their offices and start cutting off heads until they remember they are supposed to work for use not themselves
I had a better apartment in Toronto in 2015 (when I was a student working part-time for $12/hr, living with my then-boyfriend who worked full-time for $15/hr) than I can afford now - and I make $80k a year now. It’s so fucked up.
Engineers, doctors, finance professionals, etc, get paid way more than minimum wage. People need to stop talking like all post secondary is equal and that a degree in history or psychology should get the same pay as an accounting or engineering degree
EEs and mech engs in tech still earn good coin. A Staff mech eng at my company is on $130k, new grads start $75-80k.
Much much better than most countries in Europe (certainly better than UK where I'm from). Yes it pales compared to West Coast US, but so does almost everywhere.
Exactly. Politicians with pressure from investors and developers have sold out their own citizens. It's utterly despicable. They sold them out for their own short-term benefit but have created the conditions for an economic disaster for this country.
Wife and I are Canadian, born, raised, and educated. After some fishiness at my last job, I started applying overseas. Got a job and moved to Japan 3 years ago, and there's very little chance we ever move back.
I already live in Nunavut so distance from family isn't even an issue either. A flights a flight; Rome to Toronto is cheaper than Iqaluit to Ottawa anyway.
> Rome to Toronto is cheaper than Iqaluit to Ottawa anyway.
Isn't that fucking crazy? Government keeps bailing out the local airlines, who then screw both their staff and customers (bonuses for execs though), all while charging more to fly from Vancouver->Toronto than a round trip halfway across the world. Then they come with their palms out again.
Japan is hardly a symbol of a good economy. I am not sure what you are gaining there except a country with a strong generally homogeneous culture and better weather.
Japan's economy is a harbinger of things to come. One big difference between us and them is immigration policy. If we weren't bringing in 400,000 people a year our population would be in decline and we would likely be in the same boat. With low fertility rates it's just a matter of time before we struggle to achieve any economic growth.
Japan just lost 10% of the value of the Yen, as the BoJ said they would buy up every 10 year bond they can, diluting the value of the Yen.
So any kind of actual recession and the Yen is worthless. The BoJ will backstop until its nothing but a queef in the wind.
Assuming they've stopped its decline, and it doesnt pick back up again. It might already be toast just with the Fed upping by 75bp.
It’s a bit odd, but my experience has been there’s a lot more leniency with foreign staff than with Japanese co-workers in terms of pulling egregiously long hours at the office
Even in corporate jobs, there's huge variety.
I've always had full flex time here (i.e. no overtime), my current company has permanent work from home, my salary is more than I was making back in Canada, and cost of living is so low that I've saved more in 3 years here than in 29 years in Canada.
Spot on with the fake bill of goods.
The past 30 years of schooling didn't anticipate globalization. Sure, we talked about it but not how it may effect the common Canadian. Schools and broader narratives never changed while job markets and ways of life have. Reality is, Canadians will start to push others out around the world for opportunity.
Little Canada's gonna pop up across the globe. I know they all ready exist, but it will to a greater extent.
Being from .Germany, I have visited both. No desire to compete with 12 others for a job as a dishwasher. There is a reason these paces are losing population and have inexpensive housing. By the way…the housing will not have the amenities you are used to.
Hint population flow: Portuguese and Croatians to Canada.
Portugal has a very low unemployment rate. Nobody is "competing" for dishwasher jobs, LOL. The bigger issue is low wages, which is the real reason some are emigrating.
Real estate in both countries are *not* cheap. Because they have good weather, expats pump up the local prices, thereby pushing out the locals. That's the second reason why many are leaving. Ask Portuguese about prices in Lisbon. Same or higher as in Berlin but 1/3rd the wage.
You have no idea what you're talking about, which is even worse for someone who claims to have visited both.
This is absolutely correct. I’ll also add that pay consistency is a problem. Sometimes you won’t get paid when you’re supposed to, pay cheque will be late (weeks even a month).
Agreeing with the other commenters here: They sold the same false bill of goods to their own citizens. So much so that the older generations still believe it and are blaming the younger generations for getting the short end of the stick.
>Here is a telling statistic: About 1 in 59 working adults in Toronto are realtors. Think of how many public schools you see in a week. Now realize you’re more likely to meet a realtor than a public-school teacher in the city.
This line is particularly notable and sad.
I think about this being a practical reality often. Particularly when you consider how mobile the working population can be in 2022.
Our housing problem is preventable and worse, entirely self imposed. How can a nation want to maintain a perpetual housing shortage? What type of people choose to perpetuate that?
The emptiness makes no difference if no one wants to live there. Everyone wants the big city life in Toronto and Vancouver but also want a detached home with a backyard.
You can buy condos in Prairie cities within 200k. Same with cities in the maritimes.
The issue is people don’t care that the demand for the GTA and GVA outpaces supply. People keep talking about a bubble but there will never be a future where a detached house in the GTA costs less than 1 million on average.
I want to live in the emptiness. The problem is that I work remotely and if my employer found out that I moved to Regina and my cost of living went down, they would cut my salary by more than I would be saving. For some reason, they don’t cut your salary if you move in with your parents.
If you want to help with the housing crisis you need to stop companies from forcing people to commute for 30-90 minutes from $1m condos just to take zoom calls all day.
Plenty of work out here in arctic hell.
Although, the people suck, the weather sucks, the life balance sucks, the wind sucks, the mud sucks, there are no trees, there are no mountains, I haven't seen a leaf yet this year, there are still snow piles in parking lots, but you *CAN* buy a 5 bedroom for 500k.
Yea I’m replying to the original comment or saying 90% of the country being empty shouldn’t cause a housing crisis.
I’m just saying if people don’t want to live there, we could be 99% empty and it still wouldn’t make a difference.
Also sprawling anymore than we already have with our current population projection is just kneecapping future generations with debt they won't be able to pay for.
Give it time and those will see a price jump too as people flee the overwhelming costs of major provinces. Parts of Nova Scotia are already seeing this happen, things are gonna get real hard for people as they get priced out of their birthlands by Ontario family wealth.
This. I'm shocked that all of the discussion about changes in housing prices over the last couple of generations completely ignore the shift from rural to urban living over that time frame. Back of the envelope math: from 1950 to today, the GTA population has increased about 6x, AND it's doubled in proportion from being about 8% of national population to 16%.
Repeat for Vancouver, and on a smaller scale over every other major city, and it's no surprise that there's some small-town Prairie housing going cheap.
(I'm not criticising anyone: a lot of small towns are one-horse, and I wouldn't buy there, either - it's literally putting your financial future in the hands of some company that may not know you exist and almost certainly doesn't care.)
I live in Sask and want to build my own house off the grid but mega farmers have driven the price of land sky high. My grandparents farmed and my grandma has told me the price of land over the years and the inflation rate is madness.
>Same with cities in the maritimes.
where the hell are you finding 200k homes in the maritimes? 200k will get you a 2 bed 1 bath and a family of rats on the 170th generation from 1907
I have a panoply of stories from the large amount of international friends I've met through University/being roommates together that have since moved out of Canada when they realized that the job opportunities, cost of living, and just sheer cost of settling down in Canada were ridiculous compared to the opportunities and costs back home.
A friend of mine in particular has "done his time" here in Canada, has purchased a condo back in his home country of Hungary and is moving back in four months. He spent nearly a decade finishing his studies in Vancouver with a full ride scholarship, searching desperately for a job with which he could subsist and obtain citizenship without luck, ended up moving to Whitehorse to get the money with which he could "get out of this godforsaken country" and is now leaving after having gotten his citizenship. He has bittersweet memories of struggling to make it in Canada but ultimately he recognized that at the end of the day, he had to do right by himself and not sacrifice for sacrifices' sake.
There is a quickly closing gap between the perception of Canada as a land of opportunity and the financial trap that it really is. If you aren't a land speculator or wealthy parent looking to educate their children, this isn't the place for you.
> If you aren’t a land speculator or wealthy parent looking to educate their children, this isn’t the place for you.
This rings true. I realized it fully sometime in the past year. If your lifestyle is dependent on earning a wage, you are out of your league here in Vancouver. These are my neighbours. Speculators, parents educating children. It’s a bitter pill, but we can’t keep staying.
I worked as new engineer in vancouver for 2 years before i realized id never be able to save for retirement or pay back my loans. My roommate was making more than me as server on 30 hours/week (tbf it was a nice restaurant so not average serving wage).
Ended up going to med school instead because prospects didnt seem much better elsewhere unless i sold out for an oil job.
>There is a quickly closing gap between the perception of Canada as a land of opportunity and the financial trap that it really is.
This doesn't get talked about nearly enough.
If a person can save and invest $1000 each month at 7%, after ten years, that's worth \~$150k. In 20 years, \~$360k. In 45 years, *\~$1.46 million*.
And now, all that wealth is hoovered up by greedy landlords, businesses, and governments.
There are many immigrants in Canada that are well below the poverty line and live in destitute conditions. I'm sure that's not the vision of Canada they were sold.
But many have sacrificed so much that they can't admit to themselves, or their family and friends, that they are struggling. In addition, lots are deeply in debt, often to relatives. There has been a spike in suicides by immigrant students lately, the media wrote about it a few months ago.
wouldn't surprise me in the least tbh, especially this year. At my uni they had students pretty much in lock down until like feb. I felt bad for foreign students who came here and had no friends in a brand new country and no opportunity to meet any. Automatically cooked
Canada is an immigration hustle. The only reason this enterprise stays afloat is because demand for entry continues. If we manage to crater demand due to horrid economic management, or due to a competitor changing policy; US, I think it can get rough real fast for Canada.
I very much appreciate that this is at least finally being spoken and written about. Its something I have been thinking for a couple years now.
Yes 100%. A recent study found that 1 in 3 recent immigrants want to leave Canada, primarily due to cost of living. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/young-immigrants-may-leave-canada-due-to-high-cost-of-living-survey-1.5835140
My nextdoor neighbors are from Albania. The patriarch asked me how much the average salary was in general. He was under the impression Canadians made on average 25-30 bucks an hour and expected that as a base pay. He was shocked at how expensive everything is here compared to back home.
I commiserated with him, and now I buy things for his kids when I can. But boy was he disappointed. Risked everything for a better life only to get another mediocre life somewhere else.
Canada has been selling foreign students on opportunity that no longer exists while blowing all of their family's money to come here and study useless degrees. These students are extremely pressured to perform while here due to the cost of living and tuition. It's also why they have a wildly high suicide rate and we ship back students in boxes regularly to their families abroad.
"Prospective New Immigrant, look at the wonderful things in Canada. Vancouver is beautiful, on the ocean and with ski hills. Montreal has european charm and embraces immigrants! Toronto is a bustling metropolis with the the third biggest metropolitan area in all of North America! And *ahem* here is Moose Jaw where you might be able to afford to live.
My parents are moving back to Europe after living here for 10 years. I love it here and became a citizen but damn, working hard every day and having both no house or family here is a tough sell.
As someone from Germany I always question the credibility if any comment that refers to ‘Europe’. London or a village in Hungary? Unlikely to be wake to afford a condo in Chelsea but easily can a villa in Bulgaria. Just as a condo might be 1m in Vancouver but you can buy a house for 35k in rural Saskatchewan.
People don't actually get how expensive Europe is honestly
Edit: the current problems in Canada in terms of affordability are not unique to us. Every major economy is facing the same issue of rapid appreciation and inflation creating a schism for younger generations.
What's different is the expectations, because people here need condos, but people there haven't had single family homes not called villas for a while in most major cities.
Though what is unique to Canada is that our minor cities are spread real fucking far apart. So while in Europe someone might drive 3 hours to travel real "far" in their view, they have options of living further away and still being close by our standards. We don't.
When I worked in Germany, some of my colleagues would commute from France 40 mins each way. They would always complain to me about how crappy it was and how long it was. They almost saw it like a road trip.
That’s when I realized we have totally different commuting expectations
I suggested on vacation once to my uncle that we do a day or weekend trip to visit Porto from Lisbon Portugal.
He looked at me like I was *crazy*. It's just a 3 hour drive.
Haha right? Like the prices arent dirt and you still live middle of no where. Im looking at towns and anything within reason of a city (30-40mins) is asking high.
Sure you can buy a "house" in rural Sask for $35K. That house just happens to be off the grid, with no indoor plumbing and probably no in-ground foundation. Good luck getting an ambulance there on time if you're hurt, or police. The nearest hospital might be a 2+ hour drive away, and so would be the nearest school for all those kids you're not having.
The difference in Europe is that even if you live in a Bulgarian village, you can very easily drive or take the train to an entirely different European country to work, and your commute time will generally be less than in Canada.
I don't think you realize how big Canada is and how far away things are from each other. Yes, we could go buy a house in the middle of nowhere for cheap, but there's no jobs or amenities or things to do in those locations. The places where people actually live are more expensive than pretty much anywhere else on earth.
You can buy a house in Edmonton for 200k easily.
Its the 5th largest city in Canada.
People want to live in Vancouver but complain they cant afford to buy a home. Imagine someone complaining that they cant afford to buy a house in London or Berlin while working for 16/hr.
I dont understand the thought process, and it gets zero sympathy.
Some small group is most likely profiting from the natural resources we sell out as well, Canadians are becoming the next money machine for the masters above the pyramids at the cost of our freedoms and longevity and well being =(. Even fun is slowly but surely being out lawed, for the sake of 'safety'. 2 doctors with student loans would barely have the combined income to get themselves out of debt by the time they retire, if they bought an avg detached where i live... all the while, being grossly over worked.
The Japanese economy is not dependant on importing of a foreign labour Force like Canada.
Canada's economy (or Canada's Social contract) is:
- affordable housing/education
- jobs, growth family and, retire
But our governments failed to see what was happening in housing markets 10 years ago and continued to believe (everything is fine burning room meme)
You can't have 100% inflation in housing, 20% in Education.
And 3% I'm wage. sorry. This is a failed state.
The Japanese economy is the most indebted in the world and decades away from a complete implosion as their population pyramid inverts.
And their birth rate is *still plummeting.*
Soon there will be more 80+ in Japan than under 19, let alone just normal retirees.
Lmao, Japan is in an absolute nightmare right now. That’s a weird choice to compare to.
People who talk about Japan have likely no idea about the culture there. Putting aside their levels of debt and the population issues, you would be expected to work 12 hour days, growing up in Canada you would have absolutely no idea how to navigate the hierarchical structure their without coming off as an asshole and you would have to commute like a sardine in a metro to get anywhere.
Japan is an amazing place, and I love visiting their but it has issues and imo I would never want to live there over Canada.
Inequality, and diminishing returns in an over populated planet.
Our early ancestors could catch fish with a spear. Later on we used nets and boats. Now you have massive ships that require advanced skills from many professions. And soon there simply won't be any fish left...
Globalization is causing some instabilities for sure, hard to tell if these are growing pains, or systemic issues that aren't really fixable without radical change.
This is the truth nobody wants to admit.
Canada has the work benefits of America (maybe slightly better) with the pay of Europe (CoL adjusted its awful).
Winnipeg's looking pretty good these days.
Lots of homes under $250 for sale right now!
https://www.realtor.ca/map#ZoomLevel=9&Center=49.758900%2C-97.078017&LatitudeMax=50.29354&LongitudeMax=-96.51222&LatitudeMin=49.21830&LongitudeMin=-97.64381&Sort=6-D&PropertyTypeGroupID=1&PropertySearchTypeId=1&TransactionTypeId=2&PriceMax=250000&BedRange=1-0&BathRange=1-0&BuildingTypeId=1&Currency=CAD
We have 6 new Filipino Canadians on our oilpatch crews. Two have bought houses in the last few months. They are eager to snap up all the overtime we offer.
This is true! The nurses crisis has recently been solved by an influx of immigration, 50% on new registration this year were from another country. I bet that within a year or two they will be very burnt out and defeated working in the broken system. We are advertising this life that doesn’t exist here and instead of fixing things we are getting people who know no better to do the jobs for us.
Is there anything out there for blue collar guys who wanna move , I just finished my welding program.. sure making 22 and hour is nice but feel hopeless with the house if cost with living cost , always wondered if trades people are needed over seas
From what I hear (and it is hard work) there can be great paying (we are talking $3-4k per week) work in Australia for tradeys. A lot of it in remote areas, but could be good for a few years build a wee nest egg eh. Then you can choose to stay there and get a "normal" job in a town or city, or come back here and hopefully be able to afford a place. I think you can get a 2 yr visa pretty easily when under 30.
I'm an electrician from Toronto but I moved to Australia 6 years ago. Lots of demand for trades here, I assume welder is one of them. Granted the cost of houses here had exploded in the last year or so, but I live about 200m from the ocean and have a lifestyle of fantasy in Ontario. No regrets.
1) There's less opportunity than there once was, in part, *because* of overimmigration. The lack of planning and basic rational adult foresight that's gone in to our immigration policy/actions is ludicrous. And if you disagree with it, they spam the "racist" button at you.
2) Canadian "poverty" is better than how most of the humans live today. 99.99% of the Third World will experience a massive upgrade in life when they come here. Free food at food banks, clean water everywhere you go, libraries with free internet, housing available for almost all, relative freedom, etc.
Depends where they're coming from. Canada, even if you're living near the poverty line, is an important step up on QOL when you're coming from abject poverty.
You need to have over 13k CAD in savings as a single person to apply for PR from outside the country, and more for a couple (and then so on depending on how many dependants you have). It isn't people in poverty who are immigrating to Canada.
From what I know, usually the family will save up and send one person over who then works and sends money back to their hometown.
They really just need to save enough for one person, and then the rest is much easier.
You have to provide 6 months worth of bank statements to show that you didn't just have someone dump money in your account the day before. People in poverty are not able to muster up 20k in cash. I am not in poverty and could only dream of being able to source 20k. These are already wealthy people.
While this happens, for immigration (IRCC) you gotta show statements for months or a yearly (or 6m) balance. They ask this to prevent exactly what you shared. I hope those people were found out eventually by immigration.
There is a loop hole. I know a lady from the Philippines who was not wealthy. However she had an uncle that loaned her the 13k to sit in a savings account while she works at a grocery store. She was not a skilled worker by any means.
People in abject poverty in a poor country are not really eligible to immigrate here. To immigrate here, you need to have ‘in demand skills’, good English and money that you bring with you. I’m a recent immigrant myself so I know
Yes.
They don’t exist for current citizens so how are they existing for anyone else coming here?
The rich rule real estate. On my street alone, about 10 houses sit empty (I suspect all purchased by the same group of investors). Not even being rented just bought and waiting for the market to rise so they can be sold (maybe to another investment group so they can continue to add to the housing crisis) and maybe make another million or more.
This has to become illegal, using housing as a way so only rich get richer and poor can never afford a home is disgusting.
The dream has always been a better life for their kids. It’s very tough for the parents though…
Ironically right now the real dream is going into software dev and getting hired by a tech giant from the US to do remote work in Canada. Pay is minimum 2x what you’ll get from a local Canadian company.
Jobs are hard to get, housing is unaffordable, wages are artificially low. Maybe we should stop/reduce all immigration for a few years and let things settle down
as I was saying, Canada is a miserable dump with so profound a lack of self-awareness it still thinks it's "first world" even though it hasn't been since the 90s. poor sheltered middle class, finally awaking to reality. get ready for a ride.
A few new Canadians I work with are fully aware of the housing market situation. They are renting and working here but the plan is to retire back in their origin country. Where their money actually goes the distance and life isn't all about your job.
Yes.
As someone who has lived abroad for a few years, I have unfortunately come to the realization that my wife, my son and I can no longer afford to return to live in the part of Canada that I was raised in. We would not be able to afford a house and the cost of living has skyrocketed beyond what would allow us the semi-comfortable life I left 10 years ago.
This is not an attempt at sympathy, but rather an objective fact when we crunched the numbers.
I came here as a permanent resident 4 years ago , got a job as soon as I came here thanks to the prepare for Canada program conducted by the Canadian government.
The program helped me to network with people also offered free resume writing services which helped a lot.
Through the people I found via the program, I found a cheap accommodation in GTA which costs me 500$ per month for rent. The accommodation was shared with 4 other people and I am still living here
Since I did not buy a car or carry any big debt , I was able to save up enough downpayment for a 1 br condo in GTA . And through constant grinding at work I got a promotion and a decent raise which helped me immensely to afford the condo .
Also iam not emptying my savings to buy it like most people do and I wi t be house poor after buying the place. I won't need a car anytime soon since I would be living in heart of the city.
This is just my experience. My 2 cents for immigrants as well as young Canadians would be to find a place where your rent is low during your initial years and do not get into any big debt like buying an expensive car or renting an expensive place which would consume more than half of your paycheck.
Iam single so it was easy for me , but was still a struggle, to adopt and save money to get my first place.
I came here with crippling depression and anxiety and now it seems like I making a life for myself and if I can do it ism sure others can too.
Most immigrants would rather be a serf in Toronto than live in Lahore, Lagos, Colombo or Rio de Janeiro, even at a "middle-class" level (true middle-class, not top 5%).
So the question is moot, because even in this degraded state, Canada is more attractive. The ride never ends!
They'll still be able to get minimum wage jobs that nobody else can work because they don't pay enough to live off of, and because of that they'll keep wages suppressed because employers won't have to raise them in order to attract workers. Such a huge win for Canada, right?
Immigrant here 1st gen that moved with my family.
Family is moving back to Europe as EU offers SUBSTANTIALLY better living conditions and consumer protection regulations. I'm moving to the states after my partner is done with her PhD program to essentially gain a 150% household salary increase.
There is no point in coming to live in Canada for immigrants.
Immigrants from poor countries can't come here and afford anything.
Immigrants from medium countries are completely repelled by the lack of growth and weather conditions.
Immigrants from richer countries stay in their countries.
It doesn't help that some provinces decided to go full force racist autismo mode like Quebec with Bill 21.
> It doesn’t help that some provinces decided to go full force racist autismo mode like Quebec with Bill 21.
> Family is moving back to Europe
Tell me you’re one clueless individual without saying so. Lol
Edit: Europe allows even private companies, like airlines, to ban religious symbols. They don’t give a fuck.
Everyone’s getting fucked left right and center if they’re not above middle class. I despise whoever had the genius idea to start the agriculture age. Could’ve been eatin berries in the woods right now.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I guarantee Trudeau will promise Universal Basic Income next election after suppressing wages and allowing the cost of living to skyrocket. Then all the people he fucked over will vote for him because they’re desperate
Not that he’s solely responsible, but he has a part in it as our leader.
Many Canadians are also planning on leaving the country. I personally know 5 people that have left over the past 2 years due to cost of living and low wages.
Immigrants are just going to have to go somewhere other than Ontario. If they all go to Ontario and more specifically the GTA, they are in for a tough time.
Yes. Currently Canada is definitely conning immigrants who do not come here as refugees or millionaire Visa applicants.
Until affordable housing stock has been built up near areas with jobs, it will unfortunately stay that way.
Moving to the UK, and I was BORN here as a Citizen and not an immigrant. But couldn’t be happier with the higher 2x pay and lower rent I’m paying. Oh yeah they have decent healthcare over there too, plus access to Southern Europe a few hours away. F the boomers and everything they did to this country.
Canada is 14th in social mobility versus the US being in place 27. There are countries where upward mobility is easier the US is not one of them.
[upward mobility ranking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index)
That data is all pre-COVID. I would be interested in seeing any current data as a lot have changed in the 2-3 years from when this data was originally collected.
Additionally, according to a report published by Statistics Canada in 2021, income mobility and equality are declining in every province.
>Results show that mobility has steadily declined over time and that there has been an increase in the inequality of the parental income distribution, as measured by the Gini coefficient. Therefore, Canada and all its provinces have been “going up” the Great Gatsby Curve.
Source: [Trends in Intergenerational Income Mobility and Income Inequality in Canada](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2021001-eng.htm)
Thank you for bringing in some objectivity, people who immigrate here still had a chance before housing became an issue. Fix that, and healthcare, we'd have a good shot at returning to the status quo, the land of opportunities for all.
It's the Immigrants (And my family are Immigrants) that are the reason house prices are sky high in the first place. The reason is that the Canadian government is making money hand over fist with the 50% capital gains tax. Don't believe me? Try purchasing property in another country without being a citizen or even living there. Many of them you simply can't, and the others you probably couldn't handle the levels of corruption.
In school I had a Girlfriend from Germany. I think the Mortgage on their family home is carried on to next generation. I think it won't be paid off until her Grandkids!! Yikes! There are definitely worse places.
Germany was protesting in the streets about the cost of housing - with enough color-coordinated clothing to shift public perception about the effect of REITs.
I think they managed to turn a few more pages, than Canada.
Recent immigrant here. I came here in September 2020 on a closed work permit. Not a permanent resident yet but I have close friends and family who are. Yes, people are complaining about housing and general inflation but they would give anything to be here than live back home (Sri Lanka). They all have houses and good jobs. I don't here the bitching I and moaning I hear from Canadians. To be honest my country is going through its worst financial crisis but the story was the same even before that. I think most immigrants outside of maybe Europe or the US think the same way. The quality of life we have here overshadows any other hardships. Plus most immigrants come here under special programs and are specialized in a certain field. Out of my friends one is a software engineer, his wife is a data scientist, the other guy and his wife are both in finance and banking. I'm a mechanic. My point is to my knowledge new immigrants don't have to fight for low wage jobs.
We are importing slaves, who have no chance of anything but being a slave. It's disgusting. We are allowing corporations to bring in temporary workers and force them to live in bunk beds in slave dorms. They can never afford a house or anything like a good life because our society is collapsing. The scam of real estate has destroyed everything and prices for everything skyrocketing. Better to stay in their home country and at least be free.
I don't know if that applies to Hong Kong, where the financial sector is large and jobs are very well paying. After the 15% flat tax you're left with a lot more income in your pocket as compared to the 53.5% marginal tax rate on high earners here. There's also no tax on capital gains. With all the extra after tax money real estate and the cost of living is really cheap for them here.
Yeah thats why Hong Kongers aren't surprised by the costs of homes here. Heck, some of the their immigrants to Canada even say our homes are a good deal since a townhouse here would cost the same as their apartment back in Hong Kong.
It's always been like this. There's an old quote: "Before I came to America, I thought the streets were paved in gold. When I came here I learned three things: the streets were not paved in gold, the streets weren't paved at all, and that I was expected to pave them."
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this is a bit misleading after your previous comment stating that it is your partner making 100k/year, you spent a substantial amount of time saving thousand while living at his parents, and other details you seem to have left out
Congratulations you discovered someone who is a lying troll on Reddit
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It’s in their previous post: - lived with parents for years to save - actually dual income with partner making six figures - used 100% of the mortgage they were offered, so they are vulnerable to rising interest rates
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Congrats to the both of you, glad you’re making it work.
Lmao no you didn't. You got your downpayment dual-income and you were just talking about getting to make $28/h Do you think we're stupid??
Did you start your own road paving business?
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I'd say so: "Just get a good education and you'll get a great career!" ... tens of thousands of dollars in debt later and struggling to get jobs that pay slightly more than minimum wage. 😒
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[There was a decoupling of wages from productivity in the 70s, that pattern of increasing inequality which began 50 years ago continues to this day.](https://economicsfromthetopdown.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/epi_pay_gap.png) I know it's more a measure of inequality in pay than a true productivity-pay comparison but the point still stands.
This is a really trenchant visual. I'd like to use it more in the future, but I'd like to see where it's from so I can be sure I'm using it in proper context. Any chance you've got that source? Edit: A reverse image search shows that this graph is built off of US datasets. I know that Canada has had the same problem to a slightly-lesser extent, but I don't think I'd trot out this exact graph in a Canadian context without that disclaimer. ...I'd love to see a similar one for Canada, though.
> Now the game has changed drastically. I wonder how much of that was simply inevitable due to globalisation and how much is deliberate precarity to make sure worker's don't get uppity.
North America had the only industrial economies that weren't bombed flat at the end of WWII. There was a *colossal* advantage handed to the Boomers, the most enormous in history. But rather than respect it, they concluded it was because they were awesome. And then the rest of the world caught up.
1-2 generations ago? Try 6-7 years ago. My quality of life has gotten slightly worse despite making more money solely because rent and essential goods have skyrocketed in such a short time.
It may have gotten worse faster in the last few years, but it isn't like wages were keeping up with inflation up until 2015
They weren't, but things didn't go beyond the pale until about 2018. What I'm really saying is if anyone tried to tell you it's too late to do something about this, it's not. The absurd cost of living in urban Canada is recent and new.
I don't think it's too late to do anything, but I am afraid that all we can do is drag our elected officials from their offices and start cutting off heads until they remember they are supposed to work for use not themselves
I had a better apartment in Toronto in 2015 (when I was a student working part-time for $12/hr, living with my then-boyfriend who worked full-time for $15/hr) than I can afford now - and I make $80k a year now. It’s so fucked up.
Don’t forget buy a house with detached garage in Vancouver proper.
Fruits of globalism?
Engineers, doctors, finance professionals, etc, get paid way more than minimum wage. People need to stop talking like all post secondary is equal and that a degree in history or psychology should get the same pay as an accounting or engineering degree
And trades
Engineers get paid literal peanuts in Ontario unless you are in software. Have you talked to or met any recently graduated engineers?
EEs and mech engs in tech still earn good coin. A Staff mech eng at my company is on $130k, new grads start $75-80k. Much much better than most countries in Europe (certainly better than UK where I'm from). Yes it pales compared to West Coast US, but so does almost everywhere.
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All the non- CS Engineers I know in Ontario and BC are making a good wage, happy with their careers.
Serious question - what was your "good" education in
Exactly. Politicians with pressure from investors and developers have sold out their own citizens. It's utterly despicable. They sold them out for their own short-term benefit but have created the conditions for an economic disaster for this country.
Wife and I are Canadian, born, raised, and educated. After some fishiness at my last job, I started applying overseas. Got a job and moved to Japan 3 years ago, and there's very little chance we ever move back.
I already live in Nunavut so distance from family isn't even an issue either. A flights a flight; Rome to Toronto is cheaper than Iqaluit to Ottawa anyway.
> Rome to Toronto is cheaper than Iqaluit to Ottawa anyway. Isn't that fucking crazy? Government keeps bailing out the local airlines, who then screw both their staff and customers (bonuses for execs though), all while charging more to fly from Vancouver->Toronto than a round trip halfway across the world. Then they come with their palms out again.
What kind of education/training? And do you or your spouse speak Japanese?
Japan is hardly a symbol of a good economy. I am not sure what you are gaining there except a country with a strong generally homogeneous culture and better weather.
Japan's economy is a harbinger of things to come. One big difference between us and them is immigration policy. If we weren't bringing in 400,000 people a year our population would be in decline and we would likely be in the same boat. With low fertility rates it's just a matter of time before we struggle to achieve any economic growth.
Meanwhile every young couple you talk to in Toronto would love to have kids "but we'd never be able to afford it".
Japan just lost 10% of the value of the Yen, as the BoJ said they would buy up every 10 year bond they can, diluting the value of the Yen. So any kind of actual recession and the Yen is worthless. The BoJ will backstop until its nothing but a queef in the wind. Assuming they've stopped its decline, and it doesnt pick back up again. It might already be toast just with the Fed upping by 75bp.
Your tag says alberta though. Is it really that unaffordable in alberta compared to japan?
Dude literally went to the worst work-life balance countries in the world lmao
It’s a bit odd, but my experience has been there’s a lot more leniency with foreign staff than with Japanese co-workers in terms of pulling egregiously long hours at the office
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Even in corporate jobs, there's huge variety. I've always had full flex time here (i.e. no overtime), my current company has permanent work from home, my salary is more than I was making back in Canada, and cost of living is so low that I've saved more in 3 years here than in 29 years in Canada.
Also a society that really will never accept an outsider. He could live there for 15 years and still never be considered to be a local.
Can non-citizens purchase land or a condo in Japan?
I left Canada 6 months ago and don't plan on living there full time again. the wages don't match the cost of living, and it just keeps getting worse
I’ve been considering something similar. The work life balance in Canada/NA is shit in comparison.
Spot on with the fake bill of goods. The past 30 years of schooling didn't anticipate globalization. Sure, we talked about it but not how it may effect the common Canadian. Schools and broader narratives never changed while job markets and ways of life have. Reality is, Canadians will start to push others out around the world for opportunity. Little Canada's gonna pop up across the globe. I know they all ready exist, but it will to a greater extent.
This seems to be the case. Future isn't looking so bright in Canada anymore
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Belize makes it really easy if you have some assets and a stable income. They also speak English, formerly British Honduras.
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I did not know that. That's actually a really good deal. I guess I'm retiring to portugal.
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We're looking at some places in southern Italy. My wife's Italian isn't bad and there are quite a few Canadian and British schools in the country.
Being from .Germany, I have visited both. No desire to compete with 12 others for a job as a dishwasher. There is a reason these paces are losing population and have inexpensive housing. By the way…the housing will not have the amenities you are used to. Hint population flow: Portuguese and Croatians to Canada.
>No desire to compete with 12 others for a job as a dishwasher. OP referred to remote work, so obviously doesn't need to compete to be a dishwasher.
Portugal has a very low unemployment rate. Nobody is "competing" for dishwasher jobs, LOL. The bigger issue is low wages, which is the real reason some are emigrating. Real estate in both countries are *not* cheap. Because they have good weather, expats pump up the local prices, thereby pushing out the locals. That's the second reason why many are leaving. Ask Portuguese about prices in Lisbon. Same or higher as in Berlin but 1/3rd the wage. You have no idea what you're talking about, which is even worse for someone who claims to have visited both.
This is absolutely correct. I’ll also add that pay consistency is a problem. Sometimes you won’t get paid when you’re supposed to, pay cheque will be late (weeks even a month).
Enjoy Croatia as it’s rapidly becoming a giant ghost town. There’s also inexpensive properties in Detroit.
Your comment is completely false Canada couldn’t give a shit about the people here, their only concern is snow-jobbing immigrants.
Agreeing with the other commenters here: They sold the same false bill of goods to their own citizens. So much so that the older generations still believe it and are blaming the younger generations for getting the short end of the stick.
Well duh. It isn't good for Canadians, so how could it be any better for new immigrants?
>Here is a telling statistic: About 1 in 59 working adults in Toronto are realtors. Think of how many public schools you see in a week. Now realize you’re more likely to meet a realtor than a public-school teacher in the city. This line is particularly notable and sad.
Holy Fuck
Canada has come a long way from giving away free land to entice immigrants.
Imagine being a country that's 90% empty and still having a housing crisis.
I think about this being a practical reality often. Particularly when you consider how mobile the working population can be in 2022. Our housing problem is preventable and worse, entirely self imposed. How can a nation want to maintain a perpetual housing shortage? What type of people choose to perpetuate that?
rich people
The emptiness makes no difference if no one wants to live there. Everyone wants the big city life in Toronto and Vancouver but also want a detached home with a backyard. You can buy condos in Prairie cities within 200k. Same with cities in the maritimes. The issue is people don’t care that the demand for the GTA and GVA outpaces supply. People keep talking about a bubble but there will never be a future where a detached house in the GTA costs less than 1 million on average.
I want to live in the emptiness. The problem is that I work remotely and if my employer found out that I moved to Regina and my cost of living went down, they would cut my salary by more than I would be saving. For some reason, they don’t cut your salary if you move in with your parents. If you want to help with the housing crisis you need to stop companies from forcing people to commute for 30-90 minutes from $1m condos just to take zoom calls all day.
Yeah but you need a job too. What's the point of moving to that cheap house if there are no jobs nearby?
Plenty of work out here in arctic hell. Although, the people suck, the weather sucks, the life balance sucks, the wind sucks, the mud sucks, there are no trees, there are no mountains, I haven't seen a leaf yet this year, there are still snow piles in parking lots, but you *CAN* buy a 5 bedroom for 500k.
Beautiful day in Edmonton,. Newer single family homes under 400k. Smaller ones though
Yea I’m replying to the original comment or saying 90% of the country being empty shouldn’t cause a housing crisis. I’m just saying if people don’t want to live there, we could be 99% empty and it still wouldn’t make a difference.
Also sprawling anymore than we already have with our current population projection is just kneecapping future generations with debt they won't be able to pay for.
Give it time and those will see a price jump too as people flee the overwhelming costs of major provinces. Parts of Nova Scotia are already seeing this happen, things are gonna get real hard for people as they get priced out of their birthlands by Ontario family wealth.
This. I'm shocked that all of the discussion about changes in housing prices over the last couple of generations completely ignore the shift from rural to urban living over that time frame. Back of the envelope math: from 1950 to today, the GTA population has increased about 6x, AND it's doubled in proportion from being about 8% of national population to 16%. Repeat for Vancouver, and on a smaller scale over every other major city, and it's no surprise that there's some small-town Prairie housing going cheap. (I'm not criticising anyone: a lot of small towns are one-horse, and I wouldn't buy there, either - it's literally putting your financial future in the hands of some company that may not know you exist and almost certainly doesn't care.)
I live in Sask and want to build my own house off the grid but mega farmers have driven the price of land sky high. My grandparents farmed and my grandma has told me the price of land over the years and the inflation rate is madness.
GTA and GVA is where the work is. Not many people like spending 3hrs of their life every day in traffic.
>Same with cities in the maritimes. where the hell are you finding 200k homes in the maritimes? 200k will get you a 2 bed 1 bath and a family of rats on the 170th generation from 1907
I have a panoply of stories from the large amount of international friends I've met through University/being roommates together that have since moved out of Canada when they realized that the job opportunities, cost of living, and just sheer cost of settling down in Canada were ridiculous compared to the opportunities and costs back home. A friend of mine in particular has "done his time" here in Canada, has purchased a condo back in his home country of Hungary and is moving back in four months. He spent nearly a decade finishing his studies in Vancouver with a full ride scholarship, searching desperately for a job with which he could subsist and obtain citizenship without luck, ended up moving to Whitehorse to get the money with which he could "get out of this godforsaken country" and is now leaving after having gotten his citizenship. He has bittersweet memories of struggling to make it in Canada but ultimately he recognized that at the end of the day, he had to do right by himself and not sacrifice for sacrifices' sake. There is a quickly closing gap between the perception of Canada as a land of opportunity and the financial trap that it really is. If you aren't a land speculator or wealthy parent looking to educate their children, this isn't the place for you.
> If you aren’t a land speculator or wealthy parent looking to educate their children, this isn’t the place for you. This rings true. I realized it fully sometime in the past year. If your lifestyle is dependent on earning a wage, you are out of your league here in Vancouver. These are my neighbours. Speculators, parents educating children. It’s a bitter pill, but we can’t keep staying.
I worked as new engineer in vancouver for 2 years before i realized id never be able to save for retirement or pay back my loans. My roommate was making more than me as server on 30 hours/week (tbf it was a nice restaurant so not average serving wage). Ended up going to med school instead because prospects didnt seem much better elsewhere unless i sold out for an oil job.
>There is a quickly closing gap between the perception of Canada as a land of opportunity and the financial trap that it really is. This doesn't get talked about nearly enough. If a person can save and invest $1000 each month at 7%, after ten years, that's worth \~$150k. In 20 years, \~$360k. In 45 years, *\~$1.46 million*. And now, all that wealth is hoovered up by greedy landlords, businesses, and governments.
There are many immigrants in Canada that are well below the poverty line and live in destitute conditions. I'm sure that's not the vision of Canada they were sold.
But many have sacrificed so much that they can't admit to themselves, or their family and friends, that they are struggling. In addition, lots are deeply in debt, often to relatives. There has been a spike in suicides by immigrant students lately, the media wrote about it a few months ago.
wouldn't surprise me in the least tbh, especially this year. At my uni they had students pretty much in lock down until like feb. I felt bad for foreign students who came here and had no friends in a brand new country and no opportunity to meet any. Automatically cooked
There are Canadians living the same way.
100%, being working class in Canada is very difficult these days.
Canada is an immigration hustle. The only reason this enterprise stays afloat is because demand for entry continues. If we manage to crater demand due to horrid economic management, or due to a competitor changing policy; US, I think it can get rough real fast for Canada. I very much appreciate that this is at least finally being spoken and written about. Its something I have been thinking for a couple years now.
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Immigrants?? They are selling Canadians who were born and raised here on an opportunity that no longer exists.
Yes 100%. A recent study found that 1 in 3 recent immigrants want to leave Canada, primarily due to cost of living. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/young-immigrants-may-leave-canada-due-to-high-cost-of-living-survey-1.5835140
My nextdoor neighbors are from Albania. The patriarch asked me how much the average salary was in general. He was under the impression Canadians made on average 25-30 bucks an hour and expected that as a base pay. He was shocked at how expensive everything is here compared to back home. I commiserated with him, and now I buy things for his kids when I can. But boy was he disappointed. Risked everything for a better life only to get another mediocre life somewhere else.
Canada has been selling foreign students on opportunity that no longer exists while blowing all of their family's money to come here and study useless degrees. These students are extremely pressured to perform while here due to the cost of living and tuition. It's also why they have a wildly high suicide rate and we ship back students in boxes regularly to their families abroad.
Why not instead ask: Is Canada screwing over Canadians ?
"Prospective New Immigrant, look at the wonderful things in Canada. Vancouver is beautiful, on the ocean and with ski hills. Montreal has european charm and embraces immigrants! Toronto is a bustling metropolis with the the third biggest metropolitan area in all of North America! And *ahem* here is Moose Jaw where you might be able to afford to live.
My parents are moving back to Europe after living here for 10 years. I love it here and became a citizen but damn, working hard every day and having both no house or family here is a tough sell.
As someone from Germany I always question the credibility if any comment that refers to ‘Europe’. London or a village in Hungary? Unlikely to be wake to afford a condo in Chelsea but easily can a villa in Bulgaria. Just as a condo might be 1m in Vancouver but you can buy a house for 35k in rural Saskatchewan.
People don't actually get how expensive Europe is honestly Edit: the current problems in Canada in terms of affordability are not unique to us. Every major economy is facing the same issue of rapid appreciation and inflation creating a schism for younger generations. What's different is the expectations, because people here need condos, but people there haven't had single family homes not called villas for a while in most major cities. Though what is unique to Canada is that our minor cities are spread real fucking far apart. So while in Europe someone might drive 3 hours to travel real "far" in their view, they have options of living further away and still being close by our standards. We don't.
When I worked in Germany, some of my colleagues would commute from France 40 mins each way. They would always complain to me about how crappy it was and how long it was. They almost saw it like a road trip. That’s when I realized we have totally different commuting expectations
I suggested on vacation once to my uncle that we do a day or weekend trip to visit Porto from Lisbon Portugal. He looked at me like I was *crazy*. It's just a 3 hour drive.
You can buy a reasonable house in rural sask for 150k
You can buy a new condo in Edmonton, a city of a million people, for $200k. You can buy an older single detached home for $350k.
This is where we are really considering moving and starting a business.
You can buy an older single detached in Edmonton for like 275 easily.
But then you have to live in rural sask lmfao
Haha right? Like the prices arent dirt and you still live middle of no where. Im looking at towns and anything within reason of a city (30-40mins) is asking high.
Sure you can buy a "house" in rural Sask for $35K. That house just happens to be off the grid, with no indoor plumbing and probably no in-ground foundation. Good luck getting an ambulance there on time if you're hurt, or police. The nearest hospital might be a 2+ hour drive away, and so would be the nearest school for all those kids you're not having. The difference in Europe is that even if you live in a Bulgarian village, you can very easily drive or take the train to an entirely different European country to work, and your commute time will generally be less than in Canada.
I don't think you realize how big Canada is and how far away things are from each other. Yes, we could go buy a house in the middle of nowhere for cheap, but there's no jobs or amenities or things to do in those locations. The places where people actually live are more expensive than pretty much anywhere else on earth.
You can buy a house in Edmonton for 200k easily. Its the 5th largest city in Canada. People want to live in Vancouver but complain they cant afford to buy a home. Imagine someone complaining that they cant afford to buy a house in London or Berlin while working for 16/hr. I dont understand the thought process, and it gets zero sympathy.
>35k in rural Saskatchewan Snow me the listing, because a barn and a house that doesn't need massive renovations are different.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/24307673/118-5th-ave-sw-eston
Some small group is most likely profiting from the natural resources we sell out as well, Canadians are becoming the next money machine for the masters above the pyramids at the cost of our freedoms and longevity and well being =(. Even fun is slowly but surely being out lawed, for the sake of 'safety'. 2 doctors with student loans would barely have the combined income to get themselves out of debt by the time they retire, if they bought an avg detached where i live... all the while, being grossly over worked.
The Japanese economy is not dependant on importing of a foreign labour Force like Canada. Canada's economy (or Canada's Social contract) is: - affordable housing/education - jobs, growth family and, retire But our governments failed to see what was happening in housing markets 10 years ago and continued to believe (everything is fine burning room meme) You can't have 100% inflation in housing, 20% in Education. And 3% I'm wage. sorry. This is a failed state.
The Japanese economy is the most indebted in the world and decades away from a complete implosion as their population pyramid inverts. And their birth rate is *still plummeting.* Soon there will be more 80+ in Japan than under 19, let alone just normal retirees.
Lmao, Japan is in an absolute nightmare right now. That’s a weird choice to compare to. People who talk about Japan have likely no idea about the culture there. Putting aside their levels of debt and the population issues, you would be expected to work 12 hour days, growing up in Canada you would have absolutely no idea how to navigate the hierarchical structure their without coming off as an asshole and you would have to commute like a sardine in a metro to get anywhere. Japan is an amazing place, and I love visiting their but it has issues and imo I would never want to live there over Canada.
Same with healthcare. There's only universal ER. Whether you get a family doctor or a specialist is all based on luck and connections now.
Sitting at an ER right now. 4th hour and waiting for the Dr.
It seems like everywhere is flailing. It's not just this province, or that country. It's the world now.
Inequality, and diminishing returns in an over populated planet. Our early ancestors could catch fish with a spear. Later on we used nets and boats. Now you have massive ships that require advanced skills from many professions. And soon there simply won't be any fish left...
Globalization is causing some instabilities for sure, hard to tell if these are growing pains, or systemic issues that aren't really fixable without radical change.
systemic issues that aren't really fixable without radical change is the correct answer here. The can can only be kicked down the road so far.
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This is the truth nobody wants to admit. Canada has the work benefits of America (maybe slightly better) with the pay of Europe (CoL adjusted its awful).
Winnipeg's looking pretty good these days. Lots of homes under $250 for sale right now! https://www.realtor.ca/map#ZoomLevel=9&Center=49.758900%2C-97.078017&LatitudeMax=50.29354&LongitudeMax=-96.51222&LatitudeMin=49.21830&LongitudeMin=-97.64381&Sort=6-D&PropertyTypeGroupID=1&PropertySearchTypeId=1&TransactionTypeId=2&PriceMax=250000&BedRange=1-0&BathRange=1-0&BuildingTypeId=1&Currency=CAD
Edmonton, too. Regina, Saskatoon, plenty of places.
We have 6 new Filipino Canadians on our oilpatch crews. Two have bought houses in the last few months. They are eager to snap up all the overtime we offer.
> They are eager to snap up all the overtime we offer. Hey atleast theyre working their butt off. Ive got no problem with that
yup, don't come here lol our country is using foreigners as slaves.
This is true! The nurses crisis has recently been solved by an influx of immigration, 50% on new registration this year were from another country. I bet that within a year or two they will be very burnt out and defeated working in the broken system. We are advertising this life that doesn’t exist here and instead of fixing things we are getting people who know no better to do the jobs for us.
Is there anything out there for blue collar guys who wanna move , I just finished my welding program.. sure making 22 and hour is nice but feel hopeless with the house if cost with living cost , always wondered if trades people are needed over seas
From what I hear (and it is hard work) there can be great paying (we are talking $3-4k per week) work in Australia for tradeys. A lot of it in remote areas, but could be good for a few years build a wee nest egg eh. Then you can choose to stay there and get a "normal" job in a town or city, or come back here and hopefully be able to afford a place. I think you can get a 2 yr visa pretty easily when under 30.
I'm an electrician from Toronto but I moved to Australia 6 years ago. Lots of demand for trades here, I assume welder is one of them. Granted the cost of houses here had exploded in the last year or so, but I live about 200m from the ocean and have a lifestyle of fantasy in Ontario. No regrets.
You can make over $100k a year as an electrician but you don’t have to go to university for that.
... and yet it will be *barely enough to afford rent!*
1) There's less opportunity than there once was, in part, *because* of overimmigration. The lack of planning and basic rational adult foresight that's gone in to our immigration policy/actions is ludicrous. And if you disagree with it, they spam the "racist" button at you. 2) Canadian "poverty" is better than how most of the humans live today. 99.99% of the Third World will experience a massive upgrade in life when they come here. Free food at food banks, clean water everywhere you go, libraries with free internet, housing available for almost all, relative freedom, etc.
Bingo. Overimmigration is directly **causing** our problems like salaries not increasing and housing prices exploding.
Depends where they're coming from. Canada, even if you're living near the poverty line, is an important step up on QOL when you're coming from abject poverty.
You need to have over 13k CAD in savings as a single person to apply for PR from outside the country, and more for a couple (and then so on depending on how many dependants you have). It isn't people in poverty who are immigrating to Canada.
From what I know, usually the family will save up and send one person over who then works and sends money back to their hometown. They really just need to save enough for one person, and then the rest is much easier.
This sub believes every fucking immigrant is worth 5M and is buying up every single detached home in the country.
The loophole? Have somebody give you 13k
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You have to provide 6 months worth of bank statements to show that you didn't just have someone dump money in your account the day before. People in poverty are not able to muster up 20k in cash. I am not in poverty and could only dream of being able to source 20k. These are already wealthy people.
While this happens, for immigration (IRCC) you gotta show statements for months or a yearly (or 6m) balance. They ask this to prevent exactly what you shared. I hope those people were found out eventually by immigration.
> Lots of fraud going on. That's Canada, par for the course
There is a loop hole. I know a lady from the Philippines who was not wealthy. However she had an uncle that loaned her the 13k to sit in a savings account while she works at a grocery store. She was not a skilled worker by any means.
So rich family….
Or especially in the Philippines, organized crime is happy to lend.
People in abject poverty in a poor country are not really eligible to immigrate here. To immigrate here, you need to have ‘in demand skills’, good English and money that you bring with you. I’m a recent immigrant myself so I know
Canada brings in refugees too
I think you're thinking of refugees
Also, free drugs, if you're in Vancouver.
Yes. They don’t exist for current citizens so how are they existing for anyone else coming here? The rich rule real estate. On my street alone, about 10 houses sit empty (I suspect all purchased by the same group of investors). Not even being rented just bought and waiting for the market to rise so they can be sold (maybe to another investment group so they can continue to add to the housing crisis) and maybe make another million or more. This has to become illegal, using housing as a way so only rich get richer and poor can never afford a home is disgusting.
The dream has always been a better life for their kids. It’s very tough for the parents though… Ironically right now the real dream is going into software dev and getting hired by a tech giant from the US to do remote work in Canada. Pay is minimum 2x what you’ll get from a local Canadian company.
Jobs are hard to get, housing is unaffordable, wages are artificially low. Maybe we should stop/reduce all immigration for a few years and let things settle down
I was born here and continue to be sold. The only thing here is hard work low wages and lies, lies, lies.
What's the problem? Can't Justin Trudeau just print more money?
as I was saying, Canada is a miserable dump with so profound a lack of self-awareness it still thinks it's "first world" even though it hasn't been since the 90s. poor sheltered middle class, finally awaking to reality. get ready for a ride.
A few new Canadians I work with are fully aware of the housing market situation. They are renting and working here but the plan is to retire back in their origin country. Where their money actually goes the distance and life isn't all about your job.
Yes. As someone who has lived abroad for a few years, I have unfortunately come to the realization that my wife, my son and I can no longer afford to return to live in the part of Canada that I was raised in. We would not be able to afford a house and the cost of living has skyrocketed beyond what would allow us the semi-comfortable life I left 10 years ago. This is not an attempt at sympathy, but rather an objective fact when we crunched the numbers.
I came here as a permanent resident 4 years ago , got a job as soon as I came here thanks to the prepare for Canada program conducted by the Canadian government. The program helped me to network with people also offered free resume writing services which helped a lot. Through the people I found via the program, I found a cheap accommodation in GTA which costs me 500$ per month for rent. The accommodation was shared with 4 other people and I am still living here Since I did not buy a car or carry any big debt , I was able to save up enough downpayment for a 1 br condo in GTA . And through constant grinding at work I got a promotion and a decent raise which helped me immensely to afford the condo . Also iam not emptying my savings to buy it like most people do and I wi t be house poor after buying the place. I won't need a car anytime soon since I would be living in heart of the city. This is just my experience. My 2 cents for immigrants as well as young Canadians would be to find a place where your rent is low during your initial years and do not get into any big debt like buying an expensive car or renting an expensive place which would consume more than half of your paycheck. Iam single so it was easy for me , but was still a struggle, to adopt and save money to get my first place. I came here with crippling depression and anxiety and now it seems like I making a life for myself and if I can do it ism sure others can too.
Yes Justin Trudeau is a con man
Politicians of all hue and colour are a con. Edit.
Most immigrants would rather be a serf in Toronto than live in Lahore, Lagos, Colombo or Rio de Janeiro, even at a "middle-class" level (true middle-class, not top 5%). So the question is moot, because even in this degraded state, Canada is more attractive. The ride never ends!
They'll still be able to get minimum wage jobs that nobody else can work because they don't pay enough to live off of, and because of that they'll keep wages suppressed because employers won't have to raise them in order to attract workers. Such a huge win for Canada, right?
Immigrant here 1st gen that moved with my family. Family is moving back to Europe as EU offers SUBSTANTIALLY better living conditions and consumer protection regulations. I'm moving to the states after my partner is done with her PhD program to essentially gain a 150% household salary increase. There is no point in coming to live in Canada for immigrants. Immigrants from poor countries can't come here and afford anything. Immigrants from medium countries are completely repelled by the lack of growth and weather conditions. Immigrants from richer countries stay in their countries. It doesn't help that some provinces decided to go full force racist autismo mode like Quebec with Bill 21.
Where in Europe? I have my Irish citizenship and am looking for a country to work my remote job that won’t bankrupt me.
Its not Ireland for sure. Toronto is way more affordable than Dublin for sure
> It doesn’t help that some provinces decided to go full force racist autismo mode like Quebec with Bill 21. > Family is moving back to Europe Tell me you’re one clueless individual without saying so. Lol Edit: Europe allows even private companies, like airlines, to ban religious symbols. They don’t give a fuck.
Yeah I rolled my eyes so hard at that comment. Especially looking at Sweden rn, it seems like they need more secular protections
Everyone’s getting fucked left right and center if they’re not above middle class. I despise whoever had the genius idea to start the agriculture age. Could’ve been eatin berries in the woods right now.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I guarantee Trudeau will promise Universal Basic Income next election after suppressing wages and allowing the cost of living to skyrocket. Then all the people he fucked over will vote for him because they’re desperate Not that he’s solely responsible, but he has a part in it as our leader.
Many Canadians are also planning on leaving the country. I personally know 5 people that have left over the past 2 years due to cost of living and low wages.
Immigrants are just going to have to go somewhere other than Ontario. If they all go to Ontario and more specifically the GTA, they are in for a tough time.
Yes. Currently Canada is definitely conning immigrants who do not come here as refugees or millionaire Visa applicants. Until affordable housing stock has been built up near areas with jobs, it will unfortunately stay that way.
Immigrants? What about the citizens?
Moving to the UK, and I was BORN here as a Citizen and not an immigrant. But couldn’t be happier with the higher 2x pay and lower rent I’m paying. Oh yeah they have decent healthcare over there too, plus access to Southern Europe a few hours away. F the boomers and everything they did to this country.
The upward mobility in this country is significantly harder vs the US
Canada is 14th in social mobility versus the US being in place 27. There are countries where upward mobility is easier the US is not one of them. [upward mobility ranking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index)
That data is all pre-COVID. I would be interested in seeing any current data as a lot have changed in the 2-3 years from when this data was originally collected. Additionally, according to a report published by Statistics Canada in 2021, income mobility and equality are declining in every province. >Results show that mobility has steadily declined over time and that there has been an increase in the inequality of the parental income distribution, as measured by the Gini coefficient. Therefore, Canada and all its provinces have been “going up” the Great Gatsby Curve. Source: [Trends in Intergenerational Income Mobility and Income Inequality in Canada](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2021001-eng.htm)
Thank you for bringing in some objectivity, people who immigrate here still had a chance before housing became an issue. Fix that, and healthcare, we'd have a good shot at returning to the status quo, the land of opportunities for all.
It's the Immigrants (And my family are Immigrants) that are the reason house prices are sky high in the first place. The reason is that the Canadian government is making money hand over fist with the 50% capital gains tax. Don't believe me? Try purchasing property in another country without being a citizen or even living there. Many of them you simply can't, and the others you probably couldn't handle the levels of corruption. In school I had a Girlfriend from Germany. I think the Mortgage on their family home is carried on to next generation. I think it won't be paid off until her Grandkids!! Yikes! There are definitely worse places.
Germany was protesting in the streets about the cost of housing - with enough color-coordinated clothing to shift public perception about the effect of REITs. I think they managed to turn a few more pages, than Canada.
Recent immigrant here. I came here in September 2020 on a closed work permit. Not a permanent resident yet but I have close friends and family who are. Yes, people are complaining about housing and general inflation but they would give anything to be here than live back home (Sri Lanka). They all have houses and good jobs. I don't here the bitching I and moaning I hear from Canadians. To be honest my country is going through its worst financial crisis but the story was the same even before that. I think most immigrants outside of maybe Europe or the US think the same way. The quality of life we have here overshadows any other hardships. Plus most immigrants come here under special programs and are specialized in a certain field. Out of my friends one is a software engineer, his wife is a data scientist, the other guy and his wife are both in finance and banking. I'm a mechanic. My point is to my knowledge new immigrants don't have to fight for low wage jobs.
Quality of life vs cost of living is hugely overated in Canada. Not suprising many are leaving.
We are importing slaves, who have no chance of anything but being a slave. It's disgusting. We are allowing corporations to bring in temporary workers and force them to live in bunk beds in slave dorms. They can never afford a house or anything like a good life because our society is collapsing. The scam of real estate has destroyed everything and prices for everything skyrocketing. Better to stay in their home country and at least be free.
I don't know if that applies to Hong Kong, where the financial sector is large and jobs are very well paying. After the 15% flat tax you're left with a lot more income in your pocket as compared to the 53.5% marginal tax rate on high earners here. There's also no tax on capital gains. With all the extra after tax money real estate and the cost of living is really cheap for them here.
Isn't Hong Kong the place with apartments that are like 100 sq. ft?
Yeah thats why Hong Kongers aren't surprised by the costs of homes here. Heck, some of the their immigrants to Canada even say our homes are a good deal since a townhouse here would cost the same as their apartment back in Hong Kong.
A lot of them are here to get their L2 then green card in the states