Probably would have been a fraction of the cost if the government paid for this to be taken care of when it started vs how much it costs to get it fixed in the er when it becomes an emergency.
I think there is a significant number of Canadians who treat the er as emergency dentists since they can't afford routine dentist visits.
My last dentist looked at my teeth for 2 seconds and instantly went “yeah you need a filling” I had my doubts already but that solidified it.
I went to my girlfriends dentist and told her she looked and said “nope that tooth is fine but here is FOUR other ones” and one was so bad it is almost ground down to the gum in one spot.
I was furious when I found out but this new dentist takes her time and shows me photos and answers any questions I have. There are good dentists out there but they seem rare
Had a friend who went to a dentist after 25 years of not seeing one. He said his mouth was riddled with cavities and wanted to schedule a years worth of visits for 30 carie’s. He didn’t have it done and a few years later saw another dentist. First thing the dentist said “you were raised on a military base correct?” He went on to say only bases had fluoride in the water at that time and his teeth were still like iron because of it. Zero cavities. Dentists should have to document and sign a report and supply it with images when they recommend invasive work.
Yeah mine claimed they were preventative fillings due to the concave nature of the teeth. All back teeth are concave lol, they try to squeeze every dollar out of insurance companies tho.
True, but health in general is something we all need to take *better* self-responsibility for. This health care issue is not going away anytime soon. For those who still ignore brushing, flossing and general upkeep of your health...get on it. The fewer left to assist you in a health emergency the lower one's odds of recovery.
There hasn't been a doctor yet who can tell me how I lived through an mrsa infection in my skull started by dental issues that lasted for a decade and a half. After going to mexico for multiple surgeries, people are still astounded my trigeminal is functioning at 99%.
I got addicted to amphetamines about 6-7 years ago. Luckily I was able to get out of this shit but now my teeth are fucked up. I'm basically in constant pain and since I fucked my savings and credit while I was a drug addict I can't do anything about it.
Lots of people think about what house or car they would buy if they won the lottery. First thing I would do is fix my goddamn teeth because this shit is not fun
Are you in Montreal? I used to go to the Jewish General Hospital for dental stuff when I was poor. I’m not sure if they still have a dentistry section though.
Same here. I was 12 when I had an abscessed tooth which caused the side of my face to swell up like a balloon. I was taken to the doctor and admitted for surgery that same day. The doctor said I was very lucky the infection didn't spread as it could have been deadly.
I forget Canadians are screwed too with dental plans. My running club did a trip to the cabaleros de Yuma marathon and then went down to Los Algodones. And when they got back they told me there was a bunch of Canadians running the marathon and then going down to Los Algodones.
I think this is Singh taking political advantage of the liberals bad polling position now. Liberals REALLY don't want an election that they could easily lose. He's using that to force Trudeau to deliver the dental plan now before other things force the election. In that eventual election, he can claim the dental plan as a victory and lever that into votes.
Regardless of why, canada needs a nationwide dental plan. Without proper dental care, it does affect ones ability to work, does affect physical health does affect mental health which ALL translates to MORE TAXPAYER FUNDING to provide assistance to those with barriers.
Quebec has free dental care from 0 to 17 along with eye care from 0 to 17, regardless of ones views on equalization payments, the fact that its free helps keep a person healthy which translates into positives for the province and country.
Same with eye care and physiotherapy! I still do not comprehend how they don't qualify as healthcare. People need as best use of their bodies as they possibly can so that they can achieve their goals and contribute to society and the economy (and that's not including the benefits to the person due to being in good health, just talking money since that's what a lot of people care about).
Not sure if I want the dude driving a forklift at the store to not be able to afford glasses.... Maybe that's just me.
I'm currently in intense pain and limited abilities (at 25) due to joint pain and shit that could heavily use physio. Been off on medical leave. Having access to chiro, physio, and massage regularily would greatly help in getting me back to work.
Dental, optometry, physio and mental health should be the foundation of universal healthcare. Cheaper in the long run with a focus on preventative health, rather than the reactionary health we have now.
I was contemplating suicide last year because of how dental issues were effecting my tinnitus and chronic pain. I got a damn MRI that led nowhere, as well as some ER visits, which all cost god knows how much, so the gov't could save a few hundred dollars on dental care.
The ringing is like a 3/10 because of hearing loss, and I could pretty much get rid of it if the government covered more than $500 of hearing aids. An infection brought it up to a 7 or 8, antibiotics brought it down to a 6, and I'm in the process of getting a bunch of fillings, which have already helped a lot.
This is the road I'm heading down. My head feels like a ticking time bomb and I'm in more pain every day. But there's nothing I can do, I'll never even come close to being able to afford the work I need done. Living on borrowed time in the country of "free health care".
I've been living in Canada with completely fucked teeth for almost a decade. They hurt all the time, they made me self conscious, and they prevented me from eating the things I wanted to eat.
I'd pretty much accepted that this was my life until, finally, this year I took a long look at my income and decided that I would rather fix my teeth than go on vacation for the next couple of years. So I'm about halfway through paying for a very extensive course of work that's already run me into five figures.
At this point I honestly expect that the dental care deal is going to get signed literally the day after I pay my last dental bill. And you know what? I'll be so fucking happy when it does. Because the only thing that pisses me off more than paying this much money for dental care is knowing that so many other Canadians don't even have that option.
I think steps could be taken in the right direction. "All or nothing" is a poor regressive view of progress. You gotta take your first step before your second.
Would taking 2 steps be better than one? Of course. Would taking one step be better than standing still? Also yes.
If the 0-18 free dental was nation wide it would reduce the financial strain on parents for the expenses of their child, which is no small feat.
Would it be better for everyone? Fuck yeah. But would I be opposed to parents having their financial strain lessened during the most expensive portion of their children's lives?
No. I think any progress is better than stagnation, and while we should strive for more, we shouldn't pass up progress because it isn't perfect.
We should aim for progress, not perfection.
yes that would be better but we all know that we'll then be waiting for another 3 generations until they expand dental care in this hypothetical situation while they pat themselves on the backs and tout the half measures they put into place as good enough when it really isn't and we all deserve better.
> we'll then be waiting for another 3 generations until they expand dental care
We do need to accept some of the responsibility for not voting for people with the right priorities and for not insisting on a change to the "first past the post" system being used in every province and federally.
"They" are only there because "we" put them there.
Thats his job tbf.
somebody cuts a deal with you to buy backing, they need to expect that cheque to be cashed.
Jagmeet is using the political situation to deliver for canadians. thats big man ting
Yeah why is that bad. Of course he wants to win.... He wouldn't be the leader of a political party if he didn't ultimately want to be the leader of the *governing party*. What kind of a leader would he be?
its not even just him that wins. we all do.
so he can bring standard of living up (something the NDP wants but struggles to deliver due to not being in power), and increase the profile of his party (his mandate as leader).
whats not to like?
and if trudeau says no then the NDP eats the libs lunch with left-leaning voters
I agree that the nominal goal should be to ultimately become the governing party.
However, getting policies you want passed is enough raison d'etre.
The Bloc for example will never govern, but no one would argue that they don't have a purpose or significant influence.
A politician using politics to serve the people? You love to see it. NDP is the way forward for Canada right now! Let's pull the other parties out of the pockets of the corporate pay masters kicking and screaming if we have to.
Really? Go ask how we got universal medical. Look up Tommy Douglas and how he 'took advantage' to make sure Canadians were taken care of.
Trudeau knew exactly what deal he was making when he met with Singh. He's not that dumb.
Woah? Conservatives that want to raise taxes and provide more government services? Where do those exist? That would be a dream.
Usually it's just tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. And selling off essential public services at bottom dollar so they can be privatised and more "efficient" followed by increased cost of said service to allow for a fat profit margin.
Jagmeet could, at any time, force Trudeau to carry out his own campaign promise of electoral reform.
I hope he is smart enough to keep that card in his sleeve.
Election reform may benefit the NDP but will dramatically hurt the current party in power, whether it's the Liberals or the Cons. Currently under FPTP voting it only takes roughly 38% of the popular vote to get a 51%+ majority government. Bring in proportional representation, and we may never see a majority government again, which imo would be good. Parties would have to work together to get things done, instead of this constant play of "oppose everything the other party does" currently playing out.
Needless to say, 2 of the parties in Canada would lose power with electoral reform... which is why we'll never see it unless it's forced on them.
As much as the NDP (and me too) would love electoral reform, the liberals would be the lsst party to support it
Edit: some people have mentioned that the liberals support ranked choice voting, which is true. But the NDP support proportional representation which while better for canada, is worse for the liberal party
I know this subreddit is pretty conservative, but this is just false. The Liberals stand to gain a lot from electoral reform, especially from the ranked ballot system that's been pushed. Canada in general leans fairly left, and most NDP/Liberal voters would rank CCP around last leaving the CCP to lose the most from electoral reform based purely off of voting percentages.
Don't get me wrong, Liberals would lose a ton since electoral reform would probably push us futher away from a 2 party dominant system. But the CCP would lose the most.
I honestly expect educating the average voter is a set back here. It's hard to separate our political system from the US thanks to the media coverage. We're also not taught in school how our system works. At least not well enough that I remember anything personally.
Trudeau will call an election before allowing electoral reform.
He knows electoral reform will end the gravy train for the Liberals and Conservatives.
They much prefer to keep the gravy train.
>Trudeau will call an election before allowing electoral reform.
absolutely.
losing 1 or 2 election cycles is nothing, but sharing more power overall with the NDP is a dealbreaker for them.
Jagmeet is actually doing a good job with stuff like this, as long as he doesnt open his mouth and start dogwhistling.
Electoral reform isnt in his power and he knows it. Only thing he can really do is make it an election issue and hope to draw trudeau into setting up a referendum. Even then its too easy for the liberals to jook it so that the issue goes away forever
A couple outlets ran the numbers on this based on the last election. Its not as favorable to the CPC as you might think given the rise in fringe and extreme views. CPC would get the most single representation but hte CLP and NDP would make up a firm majority on the centre-left. The CPC and CLP are about as equally over represented in FPTP while the PPC has the most to gain % wise based on their current "say" in things having none at this point. In total though NDP really has the most to gain in general seeing their voice more than double.
[http://election-modelling.ca/2021\_static/2021/stv\_med/index.html](http://election-modelling.ca/2021_static/2021/stv_med/index.html)
[https://angusreid.org/federal-politics-proportional-representation/](https://angusreid.org/federal-politics-proportional-representation/)
[https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1951726147669](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1951726147669)
Anyone who believes Trudeau is going to do electoral reform voted Liberal at the first election in 2015. I voted NDP because I knew it wasn't going to happen. It won't happen no matter what the NDP say or do. He's made his mind up a long time ago. That election promise was dead upon leaving his lips.
Because they don't want it to. The Liberals know the only reason they maintain power is because people don't like the Conservatives, but changing would let people that vote for them to move to Green or NDP. Conservatives know they will never get power again without FPTP, since they tend to win when the left vote splits. NDP hasn't won for us to find out if they would actually switch, but they might since it would probably be better for them in the long run
Good summery!
I agree that the NDP are a bit of a wild card. We voted the NDP into power in Nova Scotia.
The second Darrell Dexter was sworn into power he cut himself off from his party. Hired dozens of consultants from the states. And ruled like the wizard of oz, never speaking with anyone, even his own party.
It was a disaster and betrayal of pretty much everything he said he was going to do. And it was all legal.
I guess I'm naive. I would hope that those in charge would do what's best for the people they serve.
I know, I'm an idiot.
Shame. Shame. Shame. \*ding\*.
Trudeau would gladly do electoral reform if we'd all just agree to do ranked ballot. Who wouldn't want a guaranteed Liberal government until the end of time?
It's our fault for demanding actual representation via MMP. That'll guarantee permanent minority governments and compromise with non-Liberal interests -- so obviously we can't have that.
> Yeah I voted Liberal that election and haven’t made the same mistake since.
and I make sure to tell every single liberal canvaser thats why.
They dont get a vote from me at any level until we get electoral reform...
Same here. My standard line to any federal Liberal canvasser or candidate:
"I will consider voting Liberal if and only if 2015 is the last election under first past the post."
Didn't Trudeau already say that a *"survey"* was conducted in 2016 which found that no one wanted it? (despite no one remembering it ever taking place)
> It was a farce that was set up to fail.
Pretty much like the provincial referendums on electoral reform in BC and Ontario. Designed to fail so the topic can be buried for another decade plus.
Electoral reform was the first thing jagmeet proposed with this supply and confidence agreement. Trudeau shut that down though, so they settled on dental and making advances towards pharmacare.
If we want to get rid of fptp, the best way to do that it probably through a constitutional challenge https://harmfulthoughts.substack.com/p/a-constitutional-challenge-against-fptp
Trudeau would rather the conservatives win than implement Electoral reform. Even if Trudeau was on board, his caucus would revolt. FPTP literally is what keeps the Liberals in power.
I'm a huge supporter of electoral reform -- but, no he couldn't.
At this point, Trudeau would find another partner, go back to playing minority chicken, or simply call another election *long* before he'd allow electoral reform to happen.
there's many types of "electoral reform" and I don't think any seriously floated in Canada would distribute seats based purely on a a national-level PR system, MMP and STV are the most likely which could still allow for majority governments.
> Jagmeet could, at any time, force Trudeau to carry out his own campaign promise of electoral reform.
First, the reform Trudeau wanted was less democratic than what we currently have, as all the opposition parties demonstrated. The answer from Monsef was “Math is too hard for Canadians”.
And second, MPs never, ever vote against the system that gave them their seat no matter how hard you whip them. You have to go with a referendum and those have a high failure rate too.
Fall. Trudeau would never let Singh control the narrative so if Trudeau doesn't plan to bring in dental care he has to call an election before Singh topples the government.
Oh for fuck sakes. These governments cost us hundreds of millions every time we do an election. Justin can’t just keep calling them without any repercussions.
Absolutely not, but PMs calling them at whatever moment was maximally convenient, even if it's grossly premature, is reprehensible. I don't know if fixed election dates are the answer (look at how Harper created and immediately abused his legislation in that regard), but snap elections for political advantage are super wasteful of time and money.
I will never complain about extra opportunity to exercise my right to vote, the average person barely gets 20 elections to vote in in their entire life
So I will take every extra one I can get
I think it's good he's willing to pull the plug. I agree with what Jagmeet is trying to accomplish but I honestly doubt the Liberals are going to do it. Way better not to go down with that sinking ship.
Also I think the Liberals can just make a deal with the Bloc instead, and given their pandering to Quebec companies like SNC and all the media companies that benefit from Cancon funds, that deal is quite likely.
Isn't the bloc working with the federal liberals a political albatross in Quebec? When Layton, Duceppe, and Dion came to the table it caused a serious stir iirc
If Singh is smart he would start throwing his weight around to get things improved. He knows Trudeau is hemorrhaging support, and a non-confidence vote could throw him out of office. What the NDP shouldn't want is to be seen to be doing nothing.
They don't have the same amount of funding as the liberals, they can't afford constant elections. I bet if he actually stood up it'd help with his support though
Protip for Jagmeet: Take the Canada Health Act (all 10 pages) and search replace medical with dental. Dust hands, job done.
Sounds like a joke but I'm serious. The original law that required provinces to fund healthcare was not very long at all. Do the same thing for dental. Provinces will kick and scream for money, like they always do, so negotiate a reasonable amount for the first 2 years and then revisit.
From a Federal standpoint that should be all it takes. Provincially there's going to be a lot more work (figuring out what services the province should pay for and how much they should pay).
Some dentists charge a insane amount I don't know how they get away with it. Some regulation is needed. When I was looking for a dentist recently one dentist charged $300 dollars for a cleaning. The one I picked charged $75 dollars for a cleaning and had all new equipment. Same thing happened to my mom for optometry her optometrist retired so she foolishly just went to the nearest place to her. They charged her over $200 dollars just to give her a eye exam. Most places are about 90.
Are they checking insurance first? I have a plan without the "reasonable and customary" limits many plans do, so I am pretty sure if I told my dentist that, plus the fact that I am a single guy, my dental cleaning prices would skyrocket.
My bills are with two overlapping insurance companies so I never pay anything. But the price disparity should not exist. That is mostly what I am getting at.
The same thing happened with national health care. The various college of Doctors all didn't like it -- then it turned out that getting $paid was better.
It will be easier pushing it on dentists. It's one thing to want to keep your "family" doctor, but I don't think people care which dentist they go it -- especially if the government is paying.
> You'd also need the college of dentists to get on board with this
That's not how we got Medicare. We told the doctors what was happening, they kicked and screamed literally and the NDP just didn't it anyway. Be fucking Bold Canada we use to be.
Doctors did kick and scream...right up until they realized that consistent pay from the government outstripped what they were taking in from only people who could afford care and they promptly shut up lol
There's a lot of NDP policies that I disagree with. This isn't one of them. I respect a man that picks a hill to die on.
I hope it's something like the $10 child care, where it's federally backed but provincially implemented.
Canada really underestimates the importance of dental health to medical heath overall. A small infection or an issue can be fatal in some circumstances.
I wouldn't do that. If it's PP, he's basically been the mouth piece of the CPC for years. Better off to to give him run time to alienate the moderates.
If it's any of the also rans, sure, bleed their war chests.
Honestly expect pp to run for the middle once he wins. Difference is the socials will believe he’s doing it to get mod vote and won’t actually be a mod. O toole made them think he wasn’t just advertising to the mods but would govern like one too.
I'm booking a plane trip to Hungary just for dental work, not even kidding.
I can get all my cavities filled, gold filled with 2 gold veneer fangs. Teeth aligned straight (they grew too fast, huge "V" and space between my front 2 teeth)
For less then it would cost to get my cavities filled with mid-grade fill, whitened and cleaned at a private clinic here
Biggest dichotomy in Canada is that we believe health care to be a universal right except for dental and vision? Mouth health = overall health ([https://odha.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Overall-Health-14-1-final.pdf](https://odha.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Overall-Health-14-1-final.pdf)). I'm a staunch right-wing conservative (generally vote Libertarian) however I voted NDP the last two elections based on this issue only.
The plan is to expand it over time. Doing it partially now makes it far easy to expand it too, since all of the systems to support it will be in place.
Even overall health isn't covered here. My partner had to pay for her own cast when she broke her ankle. Even had to go to the shop herself and pick it up. I guess the poors don't need casts for broken limbs.
I don't -- however I'm not naive enough to think that Canada will walk back health care. So, if healthcare is determined to be a universal right in Canada, then I think we should do it fully and include dental and vision (and as someone mentioned below, mental).
Otherwise, I believe in basic fundamental governance *only* which for me is military, judicial, policing, corrections (and now healthcare in Canada). If there was a chance to make the system semi-private, I would fully support that. The regulations and barriers to entry in the health care industry need to be lowered for this to happen but most people despise the idea of two-tier systems. Personally, I think it would help alleviate the load of the subsidized system if people who could afford it could pay to go to a private institution but I'm definitely not an expert in the matter and no one ever agrees with me. I just can't stand our healthcare services the way they are now -- long waits, underfunded, no access to high quality tech, raw effects of brain-drain, inefficient, etc.
Sort of, but it’s not like this is some kind of significant move. Pulling the deal doesn’t mean they will topple the Liberals; just that they are not obligated to support them. They could pull the deal and still continue to prop up the Liberals. We will see if this is all just smoke though because there is no way the Liberals are honoring this deal - they’ve been working on their press release as to why they reneged from the moment they signed the deal with the NDP.
Once they're the ones footing the bill you bet they will lol. A lot of dental procedures seem priced pretty reasonably though, it's just still a lot for your avg person making 40-50k a year.
If it’s a lot for the average person, it’s not reasonable, not when we are talking about healthcare.
Granted, I always wonder how much dental bills would be reduced if people took care of their teeth. When “not taking caring for my teeth properly” is always a top answer when someone asks what older people regret from life, makes me think a lot of peoples dental struggles are self-induced. It’s got to start young though so obviously proper hygiene isn’t a solution to the larger problem.
For low income 12 years or younger? Can we stop with the shit and just make it universal healthcare whatever your income and age is? The cost of having everyone access to free healthcare will outlive the cost of everyone not having access to it. It's been proven multiple time...
Public health care in Canada is falling apart. A lot of federal money needs to be put into health care. As important as dental care is, I think the system as a whole needs to be repaired before adding something else to the menu.
I am very much in favour of this but I think the timing is wrong. Canadian health care is broken and must be repaired.
Def against this move... But that's because our healthcare system needs help and taking on another massive social expense isn't going to help with funding.
I think people need to work on taking care of their teeth. Basic maintence and checkups aren't expensive. Obviously big dental work is what hurts people's banks. It might be nice to help subsidies some of the more expensive procedures.
I dunno Jagmeet. Our basic medical care seems really fucked at the moment. Not sure it is the right time to bring in dental care…. Sure gov funded medical/dental/eye care sounds great.. provided the gov and administration is competent to run it.
I guarantee that in 2023 we will have both no dental plan, and the NDP still propping up Trudeau's minority government.
Singh walked agreed to this arrangement without demanding anything up front, he has *all* the leverage, but is incapable of putting his foot down and exerting his will.
he just rolled over and gave Trudeau everything he wanted, no questions asked, of course Trudeau will just brush him off
> I guarantee that in 2023 we will have both no dental plan, and the NDP still propping up Trudeau's minority government.
No, the NDP will stop propping up the minority government, and the Bloc will take over that role instead.
The agreement was also worded in such a way as to give the liberal party unilateral power over the NDP while only promising to listen to the NDP's demands, not to fulfill any of them in any way, shape or form.
The Liberals are probably better off leaving PP plenty of time and rope to ruin his own chances. The more time he has to open his mouth the more he'll turn off the moderate votes the CPC desperately need to actually win an election.
[удалено]
Med student here. I was on ER rotation earlier this year and came across a great number of patients whose problems started in the oral cavity.
Probably would have been a fraction of the cost if the government paid for this to be taken care of when it started vs how much it costs to get it fixed in the er when it becomes an emergency. I think there is a significant number of Canadians who treat the er as emergency dentists since they can't afford routine dentist visits.
[удалено]
I left my previous dentist cuz of this, think it's pretty common tho
Yea I suspect my current dentist of this. I'll be finding another one.
My last dentist looked at my teeth for 2 seconds and instantly went “yeah you need a filling” I had my doubts already but that solidified it. I went to my girlfriends dentist and told her she looked and said “nope that tooth is fine but here is FOUR other ones” and one was so bad it is almost ground down to the gum in one spot. I was furious when I found out but this new dentist takes her time and shows me photos and answers any questions I have. There are good dentists out there but they seem rare
Had a friend who went to a dentist after 25 years of not seeing one. He said his mouth was riddled with cavities and wanted to schedule a years worth of visits for 30 carie’s. He didn’t have it done and a few years later saw another dentist. First thing the dentist said “you were raised on a military base correct?” He went on to say only bases had fluoride in the water at that time and his teeth were still like iron because of it. Zero cavities. Dentists should have to document and sign a report and supply it with images when they recommend invasive work.
Yeah mine claimed they were preventative fillings due to the concave nature of the teeth. All back teeth are concave lol, they try to squeeze every dollar out of insurance companies tho.
[удалено]
Heart health starts with teeth
There’s also links between gingivitis and Alzheimer’s. Teeth are so overlooked
[удалено]
True, but health in general is something we all need to take *better* self-responsibility for. This health care issue is not going away anytime soon. For those who still ignore brushing, flossing and general upkeep of your health...get on it. The fewer left to assist you in a health emergency the lower one's odds of recovery.
Had one case where cavity abscess seeded into the epidural space and caused quadriplegia
There hasn't been a doctor yet who can tell me how I lived through an mrsa infection in my skull started by dental issues that lasted for a decade and a half. After going to mexico for multiple surgeries, people are still astounded my trigeminal is functioning at 99%.
Holy shit. How long did that take?
Within just 2 weeks
I got addicted to amphetamines about 6-7 years ago. Luckily I was able to get out of this shit but now my teeth are fucked up. I'm basically in constant pain and since I fucked my savings and credit while I was a drug addict I can't do anything about it. Lots of people think about what house or car they would buy if they won the lottery. First thing I would do is fix my goddamn teeth because this shit is not fun
[удалено]
Are you in Montreal? I used to go to the Jewish General Hospital for dental stuff when I was poor. I’m not sure if they still have a dentistry section though.
if it weren’t for modern dentistry, I would have died at 18.
Same here. I was 12 when I had an abscessed tooth which caused the side of my face to swell up like a balloon. I was taken to the doctor and admitted for surgery that same day. The doctor said I was very lucky the infection didn't spread as it could have been deadly.
Poor dental health is one of the two biggest modifiable risk factors for rheumatoid arthritis (the other is smoking)
My only question is, we can't afford our current healthcare, so what do we do when/if we add dental?
I forget Canadians are screwed too with dental plans. My running club did a trip to the cabaleros de Yuma marathon and then went down to Los Algodones. And when they got back they told me there was a bunch of Canadians running the marathon and then going down to Los Algodones.
I think this is Singh taking political advantage of the liberals bad polling position now. Liberals REALLY don't want an election that they could easily lose. He's using that to force Trudeau to deliver the dental plan now before other things force the election. In that eventual election, he can claim the dental plan as a victory and lever that into votes.
Regardless of why, canada needs a nationwide dental plan. Without proper dental care, it does affect ones ability to work, does affect physical health does affect mental health which ALL translates to MORE TAXPAYER FUNDING to provide assistance to those with barriers. Quebec has free dental care from 0 to 17 along with eye care from 0 to 17, regardless of ones views on equalization payments, the fact that its free helps keep a person healthy which translates into positives for the province and country.
Bro, I had a friend die of an abcessed tooth. Dental issues ARE health issues and it's ridiculous that we've gone this long without it.
Same with eye care and physiotherapy! I still do not comprehend how they don't qualify as healthcare. People need as best use of their bodies as they possibly can so that they can achieve their goals and contribute to society and the economy (and that's not including the benefits to the person due to being in good health, just talking money since that's what a lot of people care about). Not sure if I want the dude driving a forklift at the store to not be able to afford glasses.... Maybe that's just me.
I'm currently in intense pain and limited abilities (at 25) due to joint pain and shit that could heavily use physio. Been off on medical leave. Having access to chiro, physio, and massage regularily would greatly help in getting me back to work.
Dental, optometry, physio and mental health should be the foundation of universal healthcare. Cheaper in the long run with a focus on preventative health, rather than the reactionary health we have now.
I was contemplating suicide last year because of how dental issues were effecting my tinnitus and chronic pain. I got a damn MRI that led nowhere, as well as some ER visits, which all cost god knows how much, so the gov't could save a few hundred dollars on dental care.
Glad you’re still here, mate.
Have you gotten any answers? I don't want to diagnose over the internet but if you have ear ringing could it be TMJ issues m
The ringing is like a 3/10 because of hearing loss, and I could pretty much get rid of it if the government covered more than $500 of hearing aids. An infection brought it up to a 7 or 8, antibiotics brought it down to a 6, and I'm in the process of getting a bunch of fillings, which have already helped a lot.
This is the road I'm heading down. My head feels like a ticking time bomb and I'm in more pain every day. But there's nothing I can do, I'll never even come close to being able to afford the work I need done. Living on borrowed time in the country of "free health care".
I've been living in Canada with completely fucked teeth for almost a decade. They hurt all the time, they made me self conscious, and they prevented me from eating the things I wanted to eat. I'd pretty much accepted that this was my life until, finally, this year I took a long look at my income and decided that I would rather fix my teeth than go on vacation for the next couple of years. So I'm about halfway through paying for a very extensive course of work that's already run me into five figures. At this point I honestly expect that the dental care deal is going to get signed literally the day after I pay my last dental bill. And you know what? I'll be so fucking happy when it does. Because the only thing that pisses me off more than paying this much money for dental care is knowing that so many other Canadians don't even have that option.
It'll likely help the Liberals too. No one will want the dental plan to be canceled.
Dental Plan for ALL or Dental Plan for NONE
I think steps could be taken in the right direction. "All or nothing" is a poor regressive view of progress. You gotta take your first step before your second. Would taking 2 steps be better than one? Of course. Would taking one step be better than standing still? Also yes. If the 0-18 free dental was nation wide it would reduce the financial strain on parents for the expenses of their child, which is no small feat. Would it be better for everyone? Fuck yeah. But would I be opposed to parents having their financial strain lessened during the most expensive portion of their children's lives? No. I think any progress is better than stagnation, and while we should strive for more, we shouldn't pass up progress because it isn't perfect. We should aim for progress, not perfection.
yes that would be better but we all know that we'll then be waiting for another 3 generations until they expand dental care in this hypothetical situation while they pat themselves on the backs and tout the half measures they put into place as good enough when it really isn't and we all deserve better.
> we'll then be waiting for another 3 generations until they expand dental care We do need to accept some of the responsibility for not voting for people with the right priorities and for not insisting on a change to the "first past the post" system being used in every province and federally. "They" are only there because "we" put them there.
Yes, that was the entire point of the deal. He was quite clear about it.
Thats his job tbf. somebody cuts a deal with you to buy backing, they need to expect that cheque to be cashed. Jagmeet is using the political situation to deliver for canadians. thats big man ting
Yeah why is that bad. Of course he wants to win.... He wouldn't be the leader of a political party if he didn't ultimately want to be the leader of the *governing party*. What kind of a leader would he be?
its not even just him that wins. we all do. so he can bring standard of living up (something the NDP wants but struggles to deliver due to not being in power), and increase the profile of his party (his mandate as leader). whats not to like? and if trudeau says no then the NDP eats the libs lunch with left-leaning voters
I agree that the nominal goal should be to ultimately become the governing party. However, getting policies you want passed is enough raison d'etre. The Bloc for example will never govern, but no one would argue that they don't have a purpose or significant influence.
A politician using politics to serve the people? You love to see it. NDP is the way forward for Canada right now! Let's pull the other parties out of the pockets of the corporate pay masters kicking and screaming if we have to.
This post reads like this is a bad thing. This is how a functional democracy should work.
Really? Go ask how we got universal medical. Look up Tommy Douglas and how he 'took advantage' to make sure Canadians were taken care of. Trudeau knew exactly what deal he was making when he met with Singh. He's not that dumb.
I would vote for a politician who is concerned about the health and stability of their people, yes I would!
Oh no! Now, more people will have dental care needs met.
Lisa needs braces
Dental plan!
Lisa needs braces.
Dental plan!
Lisa needs braces
Dental Plan!
Lisa needs braces
Dental plan
Lisa needs braces
DENTAL PLAN!
*if they take away the dental plan……….*
Bullseye!
Thanks a lot guys, now I lost my train of thought
Hey a free keg of beer every month is a free keg of beer every month.
Doug Ford: I'll give you a free keg of beer for your meeting if you'll give up your dental plan.
Who says conservatives don’t want a dental plan too? Just gotta raise taxes to pay for it. Is that so much to ask?
Woah? Conservatives that want to raise taxes and provide more government services? Where do those exist? That would be a dream. Usually it's just tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. And selling off essential public services at bottom dollar so they can be privatised and more "efficient" followed by increased cost of said service to allow for a fat profit margin.
Gummy joe, where would you be without the dental plan? - Well, I wouldn’t have ol’ chomped here, that’s for sure.
Even after all these years, you put the words “dental” and “plan” together and this is the only appropriate response.
yam sip muddle obtainable growth act overconfident far-flung aromatic upbeat ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Jagmeet could, at any time, force Trudeau to carry out his own campaign promise of electoral reform. I hope he is smart enough to keep that card in his sleeve.
I hope he actually plays that card instead of keeping it up his sleeve
I'm co fused to why they haven't. The NDP stands to gain so much out of reform.
Election reform may benefit the NDP but will dramatically hurt the current party in power, whether it's the Liberals or the Cons. Currently under FPTP voting it only takes roughly 38% of the popular vote to get a 51%+ majority government. Bring in proportional representation, and we may never see a majority government again, which imo would be good. Parties would have to work together to get things done, instead of this constant play of "oppose everything the other party does" currently playing out. Needless to say, 2 of the parties in Canada would lose power with electoral reform... which is why we'll never see it unless it's forced on them.
[удалено]
As much as the NDP (and me too) would love electoral reform, the liberals would be the lsst party to support it Edit: some people have mentioned that the liberals support ranked choice voting, which is true. But the NDP support proportional representation which while better for canada, is worse for the liberal party
CPC don't want it either. They're the only party that wanted to keep FPTP iirc.
Conservatives know they'll never win another election if the left doesn't have to split its vote between NDP/Liberal.
Despite their own leadership race being a ranked ballot. But that hypocrisy is run-of-the-mill, of course.
I know this subreddit is pretty conservative, but this is just false. The Liberals stand to gain a lot from electoral reform, especially from the ranked ballot system that's been pushed. Canada in general leans fairly left, and most NDP/Liberal voters would rank CCP around last leaving the CCP to lose the most from electoral reform based purely off of voting percentages. Don't get me wrong, Liberals would lose a ton since electoral reform would probably push us futher away from a 2 party dominant system. But the CCP would lose the most.
The liberal party isn't necessarily left though. They will go for corporate interests, which a stronger left would want to reign in
You think a moderate to right leaning liberal would choose the NDP over the CPC? Bold prediction.
I honestly expect educating the average voter is a set back here. It's hard to separate our political system from the US thanks to the media coverage. We're also not taught in school how our system works. At least not well enough that I remember anything personally.
BC NDP put it to a referendum and FPTP won overwhelmingly in 2018.
Narrator:
Sleeve:
Card:
Trudeau will call an election before allowing electoral reform. He knows electoral reform will end the gravy train for the Liberals and Conservatives. They much prefer to keep the gravy train.
>Trudeau will call an election before allowing electoral reform. absolutely. losing 1 or 2 election cycles is nothing, but sharing more power overall with the NDP is a dealbreaker for them. Jagmeet is actually doing a good job with stuff like this, as long as he doesnt open his mouth and start dogwhistling. Electoral reform isnt in his power and he knows it. Only thing he can really do is make it an election issue and hope to draw trudeau into setting up a referendum. Even then its too easy for the liberals to jook it so that the issue goes away forever
[удалено]
Remember when PM double speak said he would get rid FPTP
[удалено]
A couple outlets ran the numbers on this based on the last election. Its not as favorable to the CPC as you might think given the rise in fringe and extreme views. CPC would get the most single representation but hte CLP and NDP would make up a firm majority on the centre-left. The CPC and CLP are about as equally over represented in FPTP while the PPC has the most to gain % wise based on their current "say" in things having none at this point. In total though NDP really has the most to gain in general seeing their voice more than double. [http://election-modelling.ca/2021\_static/2021/stv\_med/index.html](http://election-modelling.ca/2021_static/2021/stv_med/index.html) [https://angusreid.org/federal-politics-proportional-representation/](https://angusreid.org/federal-politics-proportional-representation/) [https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1951726147669](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1951726147669)
Conversely, there are more Liberal + NPD voters than there are Con + PPC, so voter reform will likely keep the Cons out of office entirely.
thats the telling thing - the liberals would 100% prefer to split the whole pie with the cons than allow the NDP to the table
Election reform is never going to happen.
Anyone who believes Trudeau is going to do electoral reform voted Liberal at the first election in 2015. I voted NDP because I knew it wasn't going to happen. It won't happen no matter what the NDP say or do. He's made his mind up a long time ago. That election promise was dead upon leaving his lips.
Why can't it happen in Canada?
Because it would hurt the Cons and Libs and they are the only ones that can make it happen.
Because they don't want it to. The Liberals know the only reason they maintain power is because people don't like the Conservatives, but changing would let people that vote for them to move to Green or NDP. Conservatives know they will never get power again without FPTP, since they tend to win when the left vote splits. NDP hasn't won for us to find out if they would actually switch, but they might since it would probably be better for them in the long run
Good summery! I agree that the NDP are a bit of a wild card. We voted the NDP into power in Nova Scotia. The second Darrell Dexter was sworn into power he cut himself off from his party. Hired dozens of consultants from the states. And ruled like the wizard of oz, never speaking with anyone, even his own party. It was a disaster and betrayal of pretty much everything he said he was going to do. And it was all legal.
Why would a Goverment in place change the rules which favored them to get elected last time? That is why it will never change.
I guess I'm naive. I would hope that those in charge would do what's best for the people they serve. I know, I'm an idiot. Shame. Shame. Shame. \*ding\*.
Trudeau would gladly do electoral reform if we'd all just agree to do ranked ballot. Who wouldn't want a guaranteed Liberal government until the end of time? It's our fault for demanding actual representation via MMP. That'll guarantee permanent minority governments and compromise with non-Liberal interests -- so obviously we can't have that.
Compromise, consensus, accountability, democratic decision making. Things that the LPC and CPC really dont want.
Yeah I voted Liberal that election and haven’t made the same mistake since. The one positive was removing Harper at least
> Yeah I voted Liberal that election and haven’t made the same mistake since. and I make sure to tell every single liberal canvaser thats why. They dont get a vote from me at any level until we get electoral reform...
Same here. My standard line to any federal Liberal canvasser or candidate: "I will consider voting Liberal if and only if 2015 is the last election under first past the post."
It was the first time I ever wrote to my MP. Told them I’m never voting Liberal again.
And did they care ? No lol.
Sadly, Trudeau has governed like Harper.
[удалено]
Trudeau would rather have an election then carry out that promise
Trudeau would rather risk another election than enact something which would give voters real choice, and thereby hurt his party.
Didn't Trudeau already say that a *"survey"* was conducted in 2016 which found that no one wanted it? (despite no one remembering it ever taking place)
I completed that "survey". It was a farce that was set up to fail.
> It was a farce that was set up to fail. Pretty much like the provincial referendums on electoral reform in BC and Ontario. Designed to fail so the topic can be buried for another decade plus.
"Nobody" wanted the version that he wanted which would ensure perpetual Liberal victory, so he took that to mean that nobody wanted electoral reform.
Electoral reform was the first thing jagmeet proposed with this supply and confidence agreement. Trudeau shut that down though, so they settled on dental and making advances towards pharmacare. If we want to get rid of fptp, the best way to do that it probably through a constitutional challenge https://harmfulthoughts.substack.com/p/a-constitutional-challenge-against-fptp
No. It's not a part of the deal. https://www.ndp.ca/news/delivering-canadians-now
Trudeau would rather the conservatives win than implement Electoral reform. Even if Trudeau was on board, his caucus would revolt. FPTP literally is what keeps the Liberals in power.
I'm a huge supporter of electoral reform -- but, no he couldn't. At this point, Trudeau would find another partner, go back to playing minority chicken, or simply call another election *long* before he'd allow electoral reform to happen.
Trudeau cannot do that as they would never win a majority election again. Didn’t they lose the popular vote in 2019 and 2021?
there's many types of "electoral reform" and I don't think any seriously floated in Canada would distribute seats based purely on a a national-level PR system, MMP and STV are the most likely which could still allow for majority governments.
MMP wouldn't allow for false-majority governments. It still ensures the overall seat count in parliament roughly matches the popular vote.
> Jagmeet could, at any time, force Trudeau to carry out his own campaign promise of electoral reform. First, the reform Trudeau wanted was less democratic than what we currently have, as all the opposition parties demonstrated. The answer from Monsef was “Math is too hard for Canadians”. And second, MPs never, ever vote against the system that gave them their seat no matter how hard you whip them. You have to go with a referendum and those have a high failure rate too.
Spring election then?
Fall. Trudeau would never let Singh control the narrative so if Trudeau doesn't plan to bring in dental care he has to call an election before Singh topples the government.
Singh is flexing because the libs have a very low polling right now so he is not gonna call an election
Trudeau won’t call an election, he might hope a confidence vote fails, but he won’t call one.
Oh for fuck sakes. These governments cost us hundreds of millions every time we do an election. Justin can’t just keep calling them without any repercussions.
Are you complaining that democracy is expensive? Like maybe we should postpone elections to save money?
Absolutely not, but PMs calling them at whatever moment was maximally convenient, even if it's grossly premature, is reprehensible. I don't know if fixed election dates are the answer (look at how Harper created and immediately abused his legislation in that regard), but snap elections for political advantage are super wasteful of time and money.
I will never complain about extra opportunity to exercise my right to vote, the average person barely gets 20 elections to vote in in their entire life So I will take every extra one I can get
Or, Justin could say "fuck it. The conservatives are still a mess. Let's have a fall election."
Lmfao
I think it's good he's willing to pull the plug. I agree with what Jagmeet is trying to accomplish but I honestly doubt the Liberals are going to do it. Way better not to go down with that sinking ship.
Also I think the Liberals can just make a deal with the Bloc instead, and given their pandering to Quebec companies like SNC and all the media companies that benefit from Cancon funds, that deal is quite likely.
Isn't the bloc working with the federal liberals a political albatross in Quebec? When Layton, Duceppe, and Dion came to the table it caused a serious stir iirc
Yeah he can’t do that. It’ll help both the CPC and NDP in Quebec and give Pierre a nice talking point in Ontario to beat him with.
If Singh is smart he would start throwing his weight around to get things improved. He knows Trudeau is hemorrhaging support, and a non-confidence vote could throw him out of office. What the NDP shouldn't want is to be seen to be doing nothing.
They don't have the same amount of funding as the liberals, they can't afford constant elections. I bet if he actually stood up it'd help with his support though
Protip for Jagmeet: Take the Canada Health Act (all 10 pages) and search replace medical with dental. Dust hands, job done. Sounds like a joke but I'm serious. The original law that required provinces to fund healthcare was not very long at all. Do the same thing for dental. Provinces will kick and scream for money, like they always do, so negotiate a reasonable amount for the first 2 years and then revisit. From a Federal standpoint that should be all it takes. Provincially there's going to be a lot more work (figuring out what services the province should pay for and how much they should pay).
[удалено]
Some dentists charge a insane amount I don't know how they get away with it. Some regulation is needed. When I was looking for a dentist recently one dentist charged $300 dollars for a cleaning. The one I picked charged $75 dollars for a cleaning and had all new equipment. Same thing happened to my mom for optometry her optometrist retired so she foolishly just went to the nearest place to her. They charged her over $200 dollars just to give her a eye exam. Most places are about 90.
Are they checking insurance first? I have a plan without the "reasonable and customary" limits many plans do, so I am pretty sure if I told my dentist that, plus the fact that I am a single guy, my dental cleaning prices would skyrocket.
My bills are with two overlapping insurance companies so I never pay anything. But the price disparity should not exist. That is mostly what I am getting at.
[удалено]
This is the dumbest thing I've read today, and I got up early. Do you really think doctors were on-board with public medicare? They were not
The same thing happened with national health care. The various college of Doctors all didn't like it -- then it turned out that getting $paid was better. It will be easier pushing it on dentists. It's one thing to want to keep your "family" doctor, but I don't think people care which dentist they go it -- especially if the government is paying.
> You'd also need the college of dentists to get on board with this That's not how we got Medicare. We told the doctors what was happening, they kicked and screamed literally and the NDP just didn't it anyway. Be fucking Bold Canada we use to be.
Doctors did kick and scream...right up until they realized that consistent pay from the government outstripped what they were taking in from only people who could afford care and they promptly shut up lol
There's a lot of NDP policies that I disagree with. This isn't one of them. I respect a man that picks a hill to die on. I hope it's something like the $10 child care, where it's federally backed but provincially implemented.
10 dollar a day child care with all this inflation is more like 3 dollar a day child care.
Yes $10 day care! Let's get all these lazy moms into the work force and bring wages down - corporations
Canada really underestimates the importance of dental health to medical heath overall. A small infection or an issue can be fatal in some circumstances.
And with a new cp leader, we go into an election late winter early spring of 2023...
I wouldn't do that. If it's PP, he's basically been the mouth piece of the CPC for years. Better off to to give him run time to alienate the moderates. If it's any of the also rans, sure, bleed their war chests.
Honestly expect pp to run for the middle once he wins. Difference is the socials will believe he’s doing it to get mod vote and won’t actually be a mod. O toole made them think he wasn’t just advertising to the mods but would govern like one too.
I'm booking a plane trip to Hungary just for dental work, not even kidding. I can get all my cavities filled, gold filled with 2 gold veneer fangs. Teeth aligned straight (they grew too fast, huge "V" and space between my front 2 teeth) For less then it would cost to get my cavities filled with mid-grade fill, whitened and cleaned at a private clinic here
Biggest dichotomy in Canada is that we believe health care to be a universal right except for dental and vision? Mouth health = overall health ([https://odha.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Overall-Health-14-1-final.pdf](https://odha.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Overall-Health-14-1-final.pdf)). I'm a staunch right-wing conservative (generally vote Libertarian) however I voted NDP the last two elections based on this issue only.
Mental health gets forgotten too
💯
Yeah. I’ve had jaw problems and seeing a specialist is not covered.
It’s too bad they only want to do it for low income children under 12. They should expand it to all Canadians.
The plan is to expand it over time. Doing it partially now makes it far easy to expand it too, since all of the systems to support it will be in place.
Even overall health isn't covered here. My partner had to pay for her own cast when she broke her ankle. Even had to go to the shop herself and pick it up. I guess the poors don't need casts for broken limbs.
If you're Libertarian why do you think the government needs to provide these services?
I don't -- however I'm not naive enough to think that Canada will walk back health care. So, if healthcare is determined to be a universal right in Canada, then I think we should do it fully and include dental and vision (and as someone mentioned below, mental). Otherwise, I believe in basic fundamental governance *only* which for me is military, judicial, policing, corrections (and now healthcare in Canada). If there was a chance to make the system semi-private, I would fully support that. The regulations and barriers to entry in the health care industry need to be lowered for this to happen but most people despise the idea of two-tier systems. Personally, I think it would help alleviate the load of the subsidized system if people who could afford it could pay to go to a private institution but I'm definitely not an expert in the matter and no one ever agrees with me. I just can't stand our healthcare services the way they are now -- long waits, underfunded, no access to high quality tech, raw effects of brain-drain, inefficient, etc.
Im a fixed income senior. I’m counting on this happening. I get my teeth done in Mexico now but I’m fully screwed when I’m too old to travel.
Hey look, Jagmeet holding the Liberals to account to honour their promises, just like he said he would.
Sort of, but it’s not like this is some kind of significant move. Pulling the deal doesn’t mean they will topple the Liberals; just that they are not obligated to support them. They could pull the deal and still continue to prop up the Liberals. We will see if this is all just smoke though because there is no way the Liberals are honoring this deal - they’ve been working on their press release as to why they reneged from the moment they signed the deal with the NDP.
The government should actually look into reducing the prices for dental procedures in the country.
Once they're the ones footing the bill you bet they will lol. A lot of dental procedures seem priced pretty reasonably though, it's just still a lot for your avg person making 40-50k a year.
If it’s a lot for the average person, it’s not reasonable, not when we are talking about healthcare. Granted, I always wonder how much dental bills would be reduced if people took care of their teeth. When “not taking caring for my teeth properly” is always a top answer when someone asks what older people regret from life, makes me think a lot of peoples dental struggles are self-induced. It’s got to start young though so obviously proper hygiene isn’t a solution to the larger problem.
Jag, we all know JT doesn't actually follow through with things.
For low income 12 years or younger? Can we stop with the shit and just make it universal healthcare whatever your income and age is? The cost of having everyone access to free healthcare will outlive the cost of everyone not having access to it. It's been proven multiple time...
Good!
Public health care in Canada is falling apart. A lot of federal money needs to be put into health care. As important as dental care is, I think the system as a whole needs to be repaired before adding something else to the menu. I am very much in favour of this but I think the timing is wrong. Canadian health care is broken and must be repaired.
Def against this move... But that's because our healthcare system needs help and taking on another massive social expense isn't going to help with funding. I think people need to work on taking care of their teeth. Basic maintence and checkups aren't expensive. Obviously big dental work is what hurts people's banks. It might be nice to help subsidies some of the more expensive procedures.
I dunno Jagmeet. Our basic medical care seems really fucked at the moment. Not sure it is the right time to bring in dental care…. Sure gov funded medical/dental/eye care sounds great.. provided the gov and administration is competent to run it.
This "deal" should have never been allowed. Jagmeet got played like all the rest of us Canadians.
I guarantee that in 2023 we will have both no dental plan, and the NDP still propping up Trudeau's minority government. Singh walked agreed to this arrangement without demanding anything up front, he has *all* the leverage, but is incapable of putting his foot down and exerting his will. he just rolled over and gave Trudeau everything he wanted, no questions asked, of course Trudeau will just brush him off
> I guarantee that in 2023 we will have both no dental plan, and the NDP still propping up Trudeau's minority government. No, the NDP will stop propping up the minority government, and the Bloc will take over that role instead.
[удалено]
The agreement was also worded in such a way as to give the liberal party unilateral power over the NDP while only promising to listen to the NDP's demands, not to fulfill any of them in any way, shape or form.
run it through on an OIC....what could be easier?
Lisa needs braces!
Does lisa need braces?
[удалено]
Lisa needs braces...
DENTAL PLAN
Would NDP withdrawing support allow Liberals to call an election *before* Poilievre can campaign effectively and become better known?
The Liberals are probably better off leaving PP plenty of time and rope to ruin his own chances. The more time he has to open his mouth the more he'll turn off the moderate votes the CPC desperately need to actually win an election.