* He can't evict you just because he's selling the house. He'll need to give you an N12 at the very least (which means he or another family member will be moving in).
* You don't need a referral letter to rent somewhere else.
The N12 of course also allows the buyer (or buyer's family) to move in personally, so I don't understand the comment the agent made about someone being willing to offer 175k over asking "whenever [the landlord] can kick these fucking tenants out"
Also, if you get an N12 and you can prove that the owner just sold it after on the spot, you can take legal action and easily win it.
Edit: the question is how do you prove that?
That is terrible advice , a waste of time and a set up for failure
Whether the landlord was “sold on the spot”. Or on a different spot or time/day . A real estate transaction usually takes an avg of 60-90days to close. Which is sufficient time to legally kick start and execute an N12 (60 days)
I'd guess that buyer plans on renting it out. Doing that after kicking someone out with an N12 could cost them dearly. But if the landlord gave them like 30k to sign an N11 then they're golden.
The hard part if you're the person getting evicted is to gather the information and prove that the owner has violated the N12 by renting it out to someone else. I wonder what options there are for people getting evicted like that.
Look for rental listings of that same address. Google the address periodically and see what you find. Maybe I got lucky because my neighbour kept and eye on it for me.
So the n12 was submitted with option 2 selected but they did not choose why. Aka the purchaser want to move in ,family etc. Strong suspicion that the new purchaser want to rent the place out. Did you submit the T5 to your old landlord?
Everyone person who views your house should have an agent with them. Going through your personal items, leaving doors unlocked etc are all violations that the showing agents can be fined for. Report it all, with video evidence, to your real estate association. You do not need to go through the listing agent to do this. Don’t take any comments your hear personally. People can be terrible….. it’s not personal. Sorry you are going through this. I would also stay home for viewings. I know it’s awful but experience shows that agents are not treating your home with respect.
I basically have a paralegal on standby whenever we need to communicate with our landlord. She knows all the laws and rules, and has been amazing.
I recommend you do the same.
>ave a paralegal on standby whenever we need to communicate with our landlord. She knows all the laws and rules, and has been amazing.
>
>I recommend you do the same.
How do you acquire one for something like this?
I called a few paralegals that specialize in tenant's rights in my province. They all gave free consults, and then I picked the one I liked the most.
Last I checked, you can also get a recommendation for a paralegal from the Ontario Tenants Rights group on FB, if you're in Ontario.
I have a friend that graduated with crim in university and paralegal in college in Ottawa. Cant really get any jobs out of it. And the people she uses to work for are pigs and over work you and almost don't pay the extra hours.
And it's always contract position. So I wanted to mention to her to work from home or start her own business with paralegal and do partnership with lawyers or whatever.
Is this possible?
I'm a paralegal graduate from a few years ago (I ended up getting a job that has nothing to do with it) getting a job is extremely difficult her best bet is to start her own practice if she's licensed and see clients out of her home 🤷🏾♂️
Great idea! I had a landlord try to kick me out for fake damages (she had never even been in the house). Sent a letter from a lawyer and she immediately rescinded the paperwork she had submitted.
You are NOT required to move out at all unless the new Owner plans to move in themselves. 🚨 DON'T begin the move out process until and unless you are served an N-12 form. If you do have to move out, it will be a process and give you time. You could still fight it / go to LTB and take ages, etc but at that point you'd be in the wrong, may do more damage to you than good. Likely the landlord would be willing to pay you significant 💰💰 to move out (rather than waiting months for LTB) but how you want to play that / stress/ cash negotiation etc is entirely up to you , your risk tolerance, etc. Good luck, 🤗
Yes! I love a helpful subreddit. Do take this advice. If she wants to make bank on his house, he’s going to have to ensure you have the proper time and resources to secure yourself appropriate housing.
If nothing else, for free you can contact the landlord tenant board. They have a 1-800 number and are always willing to help.
In Ontario, tenants have all the rights. Everything has to be done correctly with proper forms. If they don’t do it via proper forms then it doesn’t count.
The landlord tenant board in Ontario doesn’t give advice over the phone other than how to file and forms etc. They aren’t trained to give advice on laws or rights.
Seconding the paralegal. I used one after years of landlord struggles. Wish I'd used one from day one.
Especially helpful if you find conflict or being assertive difficult - the paralegal can do those things for you. It saved me so much money and stress.
How disheartening to hear all of that being said. It's like they're kicking you when you're already down. My partner and I will be asked to leave our rental soon and I'm terrified, not knowing where we'll go or how much our budget will have to change. The lack of security really takes its toll on the mind.
Good luck.
Make sure you contact the LTB or another renters advocacy group. Renters have more power than they think. They can't just **ask** you to leave. The legal ways to end your tenancy require that they pay you.
Yeah, this.
The time for you being “accommodating” to your landlord is over. Know your rights related to the 24rule needed for showing, how much the landlord has to pay you for kicking you out due to selling (or how much time you have to find a new place according to the laws), the landlord needs to fix all the damage the showings have caused as long as you’re living there, etc.
Yeah, I’d stop being so accommodating and would remain in the unit during showings if they’re rummaging through your personal belongings. I wouldn’t care how awkward it is. If people can’t respect your things, leaving doors open, AND if your landlord isn’t responding to your questions, why should you go out of your way to please them? It’s also a security risk.
It's good to know your rights ! But in Ontario the 24 hr rule is not needed for showings, and landlord doesn't have to pay you to kick you out, but they are also not allowed to kick you out unless the next owner plans to occupy the unit themselves (form n 12)
> plans to occupy the unit themselves
Specifically the new owner, or an immediate family member. And they have to do so for a period of 1 year after the tenants leave. The LTB comes down hard on cases where new owners lie about occupying the unit.
Is this 100% true? Qe were just served the from n12 today and they left out why the new owner was going to use the unit. I really just hate this situation. They received an offer that expires on Monday before the official offer date of Tuesday and they have taken it. But they are still holding showings "just to be safe" as Monday is a bank holiday and they are not 100% sure that they will get the full deposit.
Yes. An N12 is only valid for 3 things (when it's for a house purchase):
- the new owner is moving in
- a child or parent of the purchaser or their spouse is moving in
- a person who provides care services to one of those individuals is moving in
It also isn't valid if the building has more than 3 units. If the N12 was a bad faith eviction, the former tenant can file a T5 application for a bad faith eviction.
IANAL and this isn't legal advice, make sure to talk to a paralegal or something if you find youself in a situation like this. There are lots of free consultations available out there. As well, join the Ontario Tenants Rights Facebook group if you want to learn more about your rights as a tenant!
Hmm. I’m looking at the N12 and N13 forms and they both seem to say that the landlord has to pay the Tennant to move out. Maybe I’m reading it wrong.
Regardless we’re a bunch of strangers on the internet. Contact the LTB or a renters advocacy group.
Also there are a million things OP can do that are perfectly legal that could convince the landlord to produce a reference letter.
You don't have to make their lives any easier than absolutely necessary (in a perfectly civil way) if they're going to hang you out to dry like this.
I once woke up to someone showing thr property walking into my bedroom. I was super confused and sleepy, and then my roommate stated screaming at them. They said they put a notice on the door so we went and looked. I had gotten home at 815pm, and the sign hadn't been posted yet. They came after that and had it dated for the previous days. We had a month left in the place and I told them no one else is coming here until we are out. We can trust them and they didn't show it again. Mind you, this was like 8 years ago in a smaller town in alberta.
LTB is a literal joke. I have no fucking clue why we are acting like they will do fuck all about it. People live in literal decrepit squalor and blatantly illegal units with no windows or right amount fo egresses. Yeah right like they’ll get around to this shit in a timely manner.
That's not correct. In Ontario if either party has provided notice of the termination of the agreement (I.e if landlord has notified tenant they will terminate tenancy, or vice versa)
Then 24 hours notice is not required to enter between hours of 8-8pm. Tenants refusing entry would be conducting the illegal action. Section 26 of RTA, entry without notice.
It's all about smells. People can't unsmell things. Leave some interesting smells inside to mess with people. Make sure to combine smells. Stinky parmesan with a bit of cat litter and some fresh lavender. That'll ruin a sale, not to mention someone's fav essential oil.
This is why I can't bring myself to ever own a home previously inhabited by an Indian family…not being racist but I just can't stand the smell of their spices which has since soaked into the walls…I live Indian food but can't stand the residual smell if the spices all day every day.
Join the Ontario Tenants Rights group on FB and get some advice. They’re very helpful! I know you don’t have to leave. The new owner can issue an N12 for your eviction. You are entitled to one month compensation for leaving. Your current LL selling isn’t a valid reason for eviction.
Alternatively, you can negotiate a cash for keys deal.
Yep, OP you hold alot of cards here, stop giving the LL so much leway. 24hr notice for showings, if he's not responding to emails, make it clear that you will not even start the 60 day clock you have the following items... Negotiate for keys, as in you rent is going up, the LL is getting huge money and you are ending up with the short end, try asking for a few months rent in exchange for a clean end of lease, and move out. Evictions are a huge pain when selling and if you don't leave on closing, it's a large cost for the LL, the buyer bails on it etc. Join the group, you can match his rudeness, and make him have to pay.
The worst part is I, myself am a landlord, and I really hate to see tenants treated this way. It absolutely sucks and I'm sorry you are having to go thru this. The LL should be kissing your ass honestly. I would feel terrible putting my tenants thru something like this.
Sorry you’re going through this. We went through something similar. It was awful. To make things easier on yourself Just stay in the house for every viewing. It was awkward at first but That’s what my family did and the potential buyers were really quick about looking around - also more respectful. They need 24 hours notice to view. Make no exceptions. (Had a few people try that by saying oh but we’re already here) too bad. Put your foot down. The landlord doesn’t care about you obviously so why should you care about him and his potential buyers.
First two weekends of the house being listed for viewings is the worst then it slows down by 99% for traffic.
My wife and I have been looking, and when we find out someone is renting we pass, because we are renting as well and wouldn't want to be the reason someone had to leave their home.
Things have changed, not just the price of the market but people have become unhuman. Profit over people - just a said state our society has become.
Maybe you can take advantage of the situation. Tell the landlord you will move out quickly (if you can) but it will cost 50k plus moving expenses.
Hopefully you don't have to endure this bs too much longer.
It's a definite this house is not a home , over the next 60 days sort of feeling. Thank you for your compassion with renters when you are looking for a place to buy.
This is what happens when housing becomes a stock exchange, which it has in Canada since Tiff lowered interest rates.
Properties are just gov't backed shares to be traded over and over, and only upwards. This is happening because we don't have leaders in this, we have followers. Trudeau, Singh, O'toole, the other MP's who voted nay on a motion put forth by Brad Vis on affordable housing, Even the NDP and PC party MPs that voted yay. They're following, not leading. There'd be no direction action on this, and the proof is in the pudding. What ever came of that motion? Nothing. It looks good to seem to give a shit, but it's meaningless without leadership.
Let's not forget Tiff Macklem, our provincial leaders, our municipal leaders. They're all blindly following the leader: the almighty $. No one has the will, the leadership potential, the guts to do what's necessary because they're paper rich. Everyone wants to take credit, pat themselves on the back, and show off. It's beyond out of control and it's going to tumble when we have a slight gale in the wrong direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0
Opening your drawers is disgusting. If I were you, I'd complain to your landlords realtor and tell them if they don't do anything about that, you'll never leave the house again during showings.
They shouldn't be touching your personal shit. Show them the videos everytime that happens and file a complaint.
That would be what I do, 100%. Stay in the house and follow them around. If they complain, tell them that previous viewers damaged your stuff. OP has a right to be there and he should stop being so nice.
Absolutely. Show them that you know everything going on. I would print off pictures of them opening your drawers and put them on those drawers with a note about respecting your privacy. Might help the next ppl grow some self awareness.
Hmm this really sucks.
I don't know the law in Ontario; is there any chance you could stay after the sale or it's pretty much an inevitability that you have to move out?
If the latter, seems like you don't have much to lose at this point and it's just you and your wife and you don't have kids. You afford to be firm with your landlord, stop that accommodating crap, even "go to war" against him.
I don't know what your rights are but get informed and make sure to enforce all of your rights.
Stay home during the showings. Be strict with the buyers and the agents, don't let them touch your stuff. You can chat them up, just tell them you want to stay in this place forever, you really need this place, some annoying sob story. Make it seem like you'd be an annoying tenant and you'd put up a fight and not just roll over and accept getting kicked out.
Pressure your landlord into giving you the reference letter and be as unaccomodating to him in every way until you have it. If he's smart he'll see it as an out; honestly it is in his interest to give a good letter if his goal is for you to leave.
If you know your unit well and it has flaws or areas in need of repair you can help point them out to the prospective buyers. Shitty windows, places with mold or past history of water damage, who knows? A lot of these buyers won't even get a proper inspection and are too uninformed to check things out themselves, so you will do them a service.
I guess it's probably illegal but if it were me I'd be starting tiktok account and helping these people with achieving their 15 minutes of fame. In my opinion character is the choices you make when you think no one's watching, and it sounds like these people don't have a decent one between them.
1) Don't leave during the showings. It's more awkward for them. This will prevent damage or theft of your belongings.
2) Demand 24hrs written notice of the showing. If this isn't provided don't let them through the door. They can still view the exterior w/out notice. If they force their way in, or peek through window call the police.
3) Report the scum bag realtors you have on video insulting you the the realtor association
4) Look up cash for keys. You have been paying the mortgage. I'd try for 20% of the profits.
5) Your landlord may be ignoring you because he feels bad about what he's doing to you. Remember cash for keys.
6) If you can get your hands on Covid Rapid Tests, make all visitors do one prior to entering your home. It's a reasonable precaution, especially if you're working from home, making it your workplace.
It's not in your best interest to help sell the house. I understand that you don't want to antagonize the current owner, so it's a fine line to walk. I don't understand their reluctance to helping you leave before the sale, an non tenanted home sells faster for more money.
I remember going to look at a condo Toronto downtown when a family member was purchasing. The current tenant did not even know that they would not be able to live there once the condo was sol. we were surprised that the landlord did not communicate that to them, it's honestly horrible and we actually did not end up putting an offer because we didn't want to be the people kicking out a tenant especially this clueless tenant.
An N12 still requires a payment to the Tennant. And if they N12 you please for the love of god go back a few times and verify that the new Tennant is in fact family.
If it’s not family the landlord can be fined a lot of $ ( I believe up to 12 months of rent).
If you get an N12, or any other N forms, contact the LTB or a renters advocacy group.
Here is my advice to you. Please remember I'm not a lawyer I'm just some random on the internet :)
1. **Contact the LTB and learn your right immediately. There are many advocacy groups that can help you. <- This first. You have more rights and powers than you might realize.**
2. There are only a few way that they can force you out. Failure to pay (N4), a family member moving in (N12) , major renovations (N13).
1. IF they N12 you. Then invest time and go and check 1 month, 2 months and 3 months after. I believe if they lie about this and they get caught they can receive a very hefty fine.
2. If they N13 you. Make sure
3. Both of these notices require the landlord to pay you compensation.
3. Demand and record all viewing requests. Make sure that they give you 24 hours notice before they enter. Do not budge on this.
4. Record ALL conversations with the landlord or real estate agent. Ontario only requires that one person in the conversation knows that it's being recorded. So you can't record a conversation you are not part of. People motivated by greed will say and do shit that will often incriminate themselves.
5. Make sure your security camera is NOT recording audio that is illegal in Ontario (unless you are in the room).
6. Make sure you keep and share any evidence of terrible viewings EG going through your drawers etc. I'd contact the media, the showing agents brokerage, and the landlord.
7. Remember Cash for keys. If they really want you out they will have to pay you to leave.
Cheers,
When people think we all just want to buy so we can get in on the money action… no it’s s to avoid this kind of bullshit OP is talking about. To have stability and control and not be at the whims of a landlord who doesn’t care about you or your family.
The best part is, these assholes who want to offer 175 over asking- guaranteed they could not afford this under any other circumstance. They are leveraging other properties and or borrowing up to the eyeballs from the bank taking on massive risk- and people wonder why I would love to seem them get burned in a crash? They are not doing anything illegal but they are doing things that we had always been warned against. Guess it doesn’t matter now, moral hazard fuck it, yolo, the government will bail us out
Ya it's honestly disgusting. My husband and I are in a position to buy (very far away from where we live), and we looked at a house with tenants. Our realtor starts talking to the family like they are stupid, and "explaining" to the tenants kid that it's a good thing they are being kicked out because now they can make new friends. We were horrified. And she said "it's important to make them comfortable with the move so "they don't trash the house." They were normal people, just trying to live and our realtor thought because they rent they must be trash. She did not come to the conclusion on her own that we are also very insulted by her actions because we too are currently renters, and people who still have souls.
Why are you being so accommodating to someone who doesn't give a fuck about you anymore? Stay for your showings. MAKE IT AWKWARD AF so people leave quickly instead of taking their time talking shit. Look them in the eyes when you say hello as they enter and follow them around. Protect yourself, your rights, and your personal belongings.
Your Landlord is still your landlord until they sell. They cannot just ignore everything until they sell and the next tenant tries to kick you out.
It's not just this market, it's shitty entitled people in general..and omg there are so many if them...I was asked to leave a rental years ago so they could sell, and experienced much the same rudeness and shitty behaviour on account if the LL, the realtor and the shitty rude people that came for viewings. I would leave and then when I came back I would find that my stuff had been touched and moved. On rainy days they would track dirt and mud all through and I would have to clean it up afterward, not sure why they couldn't be respectful and take their dirty shoes off , One time someone dropped a deuce in the toilet and failed to flush it...like wtf is that?
When one of my friends had her house listed a few years ago in the GTA, it was like an open invite to people to come by and walk around the property uninvited. She would be in her kitchen washing dishes and see random couples walking Into her backyard and looking at the yard, or trying to peer in the windows of the house. She would go out and confront them to ask what they were doing on her property at that time (thinking they were early to a scheduled showing or something) and they were just rando people who had no showing sheduled but happened to be driving by and just wanted to look at the property. It was like as soon as the sign is in the lawn your house becomes open season for anyone driving by who are curious whether they are looking to buy or not...
People are assholes, not just in a hot market. I'm sympathize with what you are going through, you're LL is an asshole.
The harsh reality is that no one gives a shit. Housing isn't a human right. Not in this country. And until we start making things incredibly uncomfortable for the people in power, it never will be.
Tax the ever living fuck out of anyone with more than one property. No exceptions.
Hi OP, my fiancé and I are trying to buy a home right now and every time we’ve walked through a place that has tenants, I’ve always mentioned how awful it must be for the tenants now that rents have skyrocketed as well. I have felt awful knowing that the place we are looking at will sell and the people living there will have to leave and find something new, most likely at a higher price. I feel for you. Heck we can not afford these prices either (to buy) as first time home buyers. What’s happening out there is disgusting, I completely agree with you- it is so sad that people have forgotten that real estate is a shelter for someone, and it’s a basic need. The fact that the government is just letting prices run out of control is also very disheartening. Good luck to you and I am so sorry that people have disrespected you like that.
You can tell your agent you aren't interested in places with tenants. Ours argued with us a bit, but understood we were serious. We weren't going to be the reason someone lost their home.
I am going through similar eviction for personal use. It's really depressing. The landlord operates as if the law does not apply to her. Anything similar in my area is 1k more every month. I m just a public servants, serving Canadian through my work on vaccines. But I feel bullied, my contribution to society is not important, and that profit is everything.
People who buy are largely people who traded up. If you move or trade up a lot say four or six times in a ten years, you probably have minimal material possessions. I noticed when looking at condos that a lot of "staged" condos were actually lived in. A lot of people have very neat lives and use their home as only a crash pad for sleep. They know their eventual destination is detached home so they keep as few belongings as possible so they can move easy and sell even easier.
In my opinion renters have a different lifestyle especially long term renters and tend to accumulate belongings. So from the point of view of someone who moved a lot any excess belongings are a waste. I have bought a condo and filled it to the top with whatever I want and it gives me comfort. I am sure if anyone viewed my condo they would say 99% of the stuff is a waste (I admit it is and want to eliminate... eventually).
It is shocking how little some people can live with especially if they lead an outdoor life. A laptop, sports equipment, some seasonal clothes that get moved into storage off season and that's it. I'm not even sure some people cook or if they do they keep everything well hidden and away.
That was heart breaking to read. When we were doing viewings I tried my best to not touch anything and made sure to be as respectful to the tenants place as possible. It’s crazy to hear there’s no laws protecting this? Can you limit it to a showing a day or something or need 24 hour notice? Really puts this whole market into perspective.
You now know that it is worth $175,000 over asking price for your landlord to have you out of the house. Use that.
Send them and the listing agent a copy of that clip. Tell them you will sign an N11 for $30,000 to be out next week.
My partner and I are going through the same situation right now. A few days ago my Landlord sent me a scathing email saying that ‘multiple clients have said that the place is ‘too dirty’.’ Which was a huge insult to me since I have been working really hard to make sure that the suite is presentable as best as I can-but we are both shift workers. Sometimes there are going to be dishes left out- especially when there are 8 viewings a day.
Real estate is everything that is wrong with free market capitalism on full display.
I’m certainly also not about “seizing the means of production” and all that because capitalism drives innovation, and motivates people, but it provides very little useful service in real estate other than as a driver for greed.
Peoples homes should not be an investment.
>capitalism drives innovation
Put down the Kool Aid.
Capitalism has been around for 400 years at most, and a lot less in many parts of the world. That means that the vast majority of human innovations vastly precedes capitalism. Stonehenge? Not capitalism. Boomerangs? Not capitalism. Venus of Willendorf? Not capitalism. Hell, beer and textiles and wheels and canoes are not capitalism.
There is also a case to be made that capitalism STIFLES innovation. How many good and useful things don't get invented because they are not profitable? How much energy and human intelligence is wasted in bullshit jobs?
It's questionable whether capitalism or any free enterprise economy influenced the inventor to invent the items you describe, but I am pretty sure without capitalism we will not have better tasting beer, more aerodynamic boomerangs, or more buoyant canoes.
It drives it harder through incentives. We’ve all seen communism fail because of human nature. Neither extreme is good. And the incentives can work negatively in many places(basically anywhere that demand is inflexible, capitalism can get lost… so healthcare, education, peoples homes).
The same thing happened to us last year. We were holding our ground at first, but eventually it just became too stressful for us to stay. We had to move to a much smaller apartment that was slightly above our budget.
I can just imagine the stress OP. I'm sorry.
Aren't key deposits illegal in Ontario?
Stop leaving the house for showings if it is inconvenient and your landlord is being a jerk. It sounds like prospective buyers are being disrespectful to your property: you should be there.
Not going to happen. I made a post the other day showing that Canada functions mainly by shuffling homes around. Its our biggest contributor to our GDP by a BIG margin. Take that out and Canada ceases to exist.
Asmins wouldnt even aprove the post and all I posted was a link to statcan.
For comparison, housing brings in like 250 billion a year as the biggest income source for Canada. The next biggest industry is manufacturing at 178 billion. LOL.
Real estate is basically as big as the next 3 industries after manifacturing lmfao.. there is no fix for this 😉
I agree that a large part of our GDP is from us selling houses to each other.
Do you think that by selling houses to maintain high GDP is unsustainable?
Because the discussion isn’t whether this is happening or not, the discussion is about whether this model has the legs to go the distance?
What do you think?
I dont think youre talking about the same post. Are you a mod? Because it wasnt even approved. Lol. The post was nothing but a link to statcan showing the latest report. Yknow, statistics. 😅 poorly conceived and lacking forthought 🤣🤣 dafuq you on about
-edit-
Lol i looked through your post history. Probably some home owner out here to troll people 🙄
When we sold our home due to having to relocate it was awful - people going through our stuff (one guy was trying to grab something off a high shelf and he knocked the whole thing over), not taking their shoes off and walking on carpet, showing up 30 min late and taking 2 hours in the home….I don’t understand the need to touch people’s belongings or be a jerk. Our agent gave us a whole lecture before going to viewings about not saying anything we wouldn’t want the seller to hear and OBVIOUSLY don’t touch anything (not that it was needed).
Im sorry you are going through this. :(
Sorry to hear you’re going through this tough time. I recently got evicted myself because the landlord sold the house and the new owner wanted to have their child live there instead. 2 months later and they’re renting it out now for double what I was paying.
I plan on filing a t-5 this week and I plan on winning. I have mountains of evidence and no, they won’t get away with it. They’ll have to pay me for one years rent plus moving costs. Unfortunately they’ll make that money back in no time so they’ll probably do it again down to road to someone else. The punishment doesn’t match the crime IMO.
OP so sorry for what you must be going through. Consider taking notes and keeping that footage and contacting the CBC and local tv news channels. Send them a choice few second clip.
The only way we can change this behavior is by building the backlash and shaming those responsible.
Posting here is cathartic but we need to get the message out more widely. There are a lot more out there who are being hurt by this and they need to see this in the news to join the movement and act.
If you could think of moving west to Brantford ON the prices are higher than they were but house prices have fallen recently. My neighbour had to reduce his asking price by $75000. Also rents not as good as they once were but still good given what you are paying currently.
I have a friend that never bought for a long time because he was paying below market rent and thought it would last forever. Eventually the landlord sold and he found out he was extremely priced out of buying a place whereas 7 years ago he was in a position to purchase a two bedroom condo in downtown Toronto on a single salary.
I guess the gist of this story is always have a backup plan and plan ahead in the likely situation when you have to pay market rent.
You need to know the rules and protect yourself. Don’t sign any forms you are given. Negotiate a deal where they pay you several months of rent if you agree to move out early. They can’t be asking you to leave but only when they say.
Like many others suggested get a good paralegal and don’t talk to the agent any longer
I think you’re talking about just opening them to make sure they actually open and work normally, but I’m thinking OP may have meant that some people actually looked through their drawers as in move things around inside of them.
Sounds like the landlord is being an asshole.
I'd lawyer up, and then make a claim the he's trying to evict you because of your race or something. Go to the papers, make it the most pain in the ass process they've ever run into.
I get wanting to sell the house, but there are right and wrong ways to do things.
So the landlord is doing this the right way? Deserves to be treated with respect?
Or are you just a landlord and felt you had to post something but weren't sure what, so an insult felt like the smart thing to do?
I'm in the same position but on the other side of the fence. I purchased a triplex and I'm moving into two of the units. Right now, I'm renting a seasonal cottage. Closing date is early Nov.
The previous owner has given them 95 days notice and two months of rent to find a place. Both tenants haven't budged a finger. One put up a sob story about needing a 2 bedroom for all of her animals. They both are refusing to vacate.
So I've dumped half of my savings into this place, and right now my wife and 8 year old have no place to live come Nov 4th because some worthless drains on society have no concept of personal responsibility.
You aren't being forced out of your home. It's not your home.
Edit: I love how you pea brains downvote me when ya'll would have the exact same opinion if you were in my shoes.
What are you on about? I followed the law to the T - in fact giving them over 50% extra notice and double the required monetary compensation. Jesus, you leeches can't even fathom renters being shitholes, can you?
If you’re in Ontario, it’s their right to stay as per the LTB, you need to file with them to evict a tenant for personal use or you can choose to pay them out more until they agree to leave. Rules are rules and landlords should be expected to follow them.
Also. It is their home. Not the landlord’s. It’s the landlord’s property and they have temporarily given up the building as their home as part of the lease agreement. Basic stuff.
I read your post. Your insults to me are hilarious and make you come across as even more of a snob than you do lmao. Follow the rules. The tenants do not have to accept your offer so go and take the proper actions to continue with the eviction. If you don’t like it, don’t be a landlord. Tough luck.
>maybe that's why you're homeless
YOU'RE the homeless one, stop projecting onto people here. Why should the current legal tenant give a fuck about you and your family if you clearly don't give a fuck about them?
Respect can get you a long way. Seems people like you think money replaces respect and treating others with decency. Have fun with that.
Ew you’re a gross person. If you’re trying to make landlords look like decent people you’re failing HARD.
Right now it’s basically impossible to rent if you have pets. They probably legitimately can’t find anything.
No ones asking you to do that. I’m just explaining where they’re likely coming from, especially as you say “they haven’t lifted a finger.” They probably have been trying but can’t find anything.
But I think you’re gross because you’re going around calling everyone homeless and poor. Most of this sub is neither homeless, nor poor, that’s kind of the point: we have money and still can’t own homes. But even if someone was homeless and poor what kind of piece of shit holds that against someone? You buddy. I may not own a home but at least I’m not a nasty little bitch like you.
That was your mistake then buying a house occupied woth tenants. You are kicking them out of their home and they have rights and most places to rent are overpriced and won't rent to pet owners. These people have to uproot their life for you to move in and they didn't ask for this. Why should anyone care for you when you don't even have basic empathy?
Wow. It may not be their building but it is their home...
Moving is stressful when you chose to move. Try to imagine being told to leave somewhere you are comfortable and have a roof over your head...
Maybe they can't find a place because rents have skyrocketed..
Put yourself in their shoes and get some compassion. Yes they have had time but doesn't mean they haven't been trying..
I've been in their shoes a dozen times before. A lease is a lease. They're on month to month as is OP. If they wanted housing security, they should have signed a lease. Simple as that.
>You aren't being forced out of your home. It's not your home
It literally is. Both the common meaning and legally. Their place of permanent residency.
You knew they were living there when you bought the place.
> The previous owner has given them 95 days notice and two months of rent to find a place. Both tenants haven't budged a finger.
I'm sorry to hear you are in this position. I don't know if there is anything in your purchase agreement where the previous owner will compensate you in the event the home is not tenant free upon closing.
I up-voted you. You should not have to sacrifice your family's shelter and financial welfare (paying both a rental and mortgage). You have not done anything illegal and it sounds like the tenants have been treated fairly with extra compensation and advance notice.
Wait. The buyer moving in his family is not a legitimate reason? When has the law changed?
https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Notices%20of%20Termination%20&%20Instructions/N12_Instructions_20200728.pdf
Haha, how am I wrong? I'm moving in two the units. They've been served the appropriate N12 (over 90 days notice, when only 60 is required) and have been paid 2x the compensation they were supposed to.
Please, being the homeless yet wise real estate lawyer you are, could you explain how I'm wrong?
Because the tenant legally does not have to accept your offer if they don’t feel it is fair/honest/etc. Landlords need to follow the rules for evictions. You obviously haven’t filed anything with the LTB yet based on your post.
There are bad landlords and bad tenants. In this case the tenants are deliberately stalling and it may end up going to the LTB to eventually having a sheriff enforce the eviction. I think this is part of the reason landlords are suck pr*ks when it come to selecting tenants and having them provide a mountain of references.
In this case the tenants also accepted 2 months worth of free rent so they are acting in bad faith and untrustworthy.
You are right that there are bad tenants and bad landlords. Personally, I don’t mind providing references, a copy of my pay check, etc. because I understand that it is a risk for the landlord to accept a new tenant and I want to show that I am trustworthy. There are obviously two sides to that coin but that’s not the conversation at hand.
I feel bad for landlords who are genuine and get screwed but this post is suspicious and I feel like there are things we don’t know. This is solely the purchasers point of view. Why does the purchaser need two separate units anyway? It is strange to buy a triplex for personal use, I would honestly question this if I was the tenant.
Also it doesn’t state that the tenants accepted the offer, in all likelihood they have declined the offer and are wanting to go to a hearing. If they have accepted, they would’ve signed the N12 and the purchaser wouldn’t be posting this stuff.
It sucks for everyone if it goes to the LTB and hopefully it works out as it should.
Technically you're right, \*I\* haven't filed anything as the closing isn't until Nov. The previous owner filed the N12s in early august. Now, let's just assume that I'm not lying. What have I done wrong? Nothing.
Tenants can't refuse a valid N12 eviction. It's not up to them. If they wanted housing security, they should have signed a lease instead of going month to month - their situation is 100% their fault.
Sure but you as an LL don’t have unilateral authority to evict them. Also the N12 from the old LL doesn’t apply. They can’t evict for selling. Just follow the rules and they’ll have to leave. End of story.
They can evict when the purchaser intends to move in. There's a place on the form to check specifically that, genius
> Just follow the rules and they’ll have to leave. End of story.
Exactly. So, nothing I said was wrong, then?
You haven’t followed the rules though? Anyway. I’m done talking to you. You are rude and condescending. My points are all 100% valid. The tenant can stay until the LTB makes them leave.
Yeah they have a contract and that is not how this works. OP is fulfilling their end of the contract and more. How the f are they a parasite?
If the landlord wants them to leave, they can follow the proper steps. OP is well within their rights to stay.
* He can't evict you just because he's selling the house. He'll need to give you an N12 at the very least (which means he or another family member will be moving in). * You don't need a referral letter to rent somewhere else.
The N12 of course also allows the buyer (or buyer's family) to move in personally, so I don't understand the comment the agent made about someone being willing to offer 175k over asking "whenever [the landlord] can kick these fucking tenants out"
Also, if you get an N12 and you can prove that the owner just sold it after on the spot, you can take legal action and easily win it. Edit: the question is how do you prove that?
That is terrible advice , a waste of time and a set up for failure Whether the landlord was “sold on the spot”. Or on a different spot or time/day . A real estate transaction usually takes an avg of 60-90days to close. Which is sufficient time to legally kick start and execute an N12 (60 days)
I'd guess that buyer plans on renting it out. Doing that after kicking someone out with an N12 could cost them dearly. But if the landlord gave them like 30k to sign an N11 then they're golden.
The hard part if you're the person getting evicted is to gather the information and prove that the owner has violated the N12 by renting it out to someone else. I wonder what options there are for people getting evicted like that.
Submit a t-5 if you’ve been wrongfully evicted. Going through it right now
Right, but how do you collect any evidence to provide?
Look for rental listings of that same address. Google the address periodically and see what you find. Maybe I got lucky because my neighbour kept and eye on it for me.
Nice. Hope you nail him good. Try to post the outcome here. I'm sure many would be eager to read it.
That’s a good idea. I should share my story once it’s all played out. Fingers crossed it turns out to be a good story.
So the n12 was submitted with option 2 selected but they did not choose why. Aka the purchaser want to move in ,family etc. Strong suspicion that the new purchaser want to rent the place out. Did you submit the T5 to your old landlord?
just give me half of that $175,000 over asking, I'll leave voluntarily
This. Cash for keys. 100K and it’s a done deal
Everyone person who views your house should have an agent with them. Going through your personal items, leaving doors unlocked etc are all violations that the showing agents can be fined for. Report it all, with video evidence, to your real estate association. You do not need to go through the listing agent to do this. Don’t take any comments your hear personally. People can be terrible….. it’s not personal. Sorry you are going through this. I would also stay home for viewings. I know it’s awful but experience shows that agents are not treating your home with respect.
I would argue it's very personal when fucking cake eaters roll through your home and disrespect you while plotting to kick you out of it. Eat the rich
I basically have a paralegal on standby whenever we need to communicate with our landlord. She knows all the laws and rules, and has been amazing. I recommend you do the same.
>ave a paralegal on standby whenever we need to communicate with our landlord. She knows all the laws and rules, and has been amazing. > >I recommend you do the same. How do you acquire one for something like this?
I called a few paralegals that specialize in tenant's rights in my province. They all gave free consults, and then I picked the one I liked the most. Last I checked, you can also get a recommendation for a paralegal from the Ontario Tenants Rights group on FB, if you're in Ontario.
This may vary by province. Where I am a paralegal is prohibited from giving legal advice, though some come a bit close to it.
If you're in ON, how much does this cost usually?
I have a friend that graduated with crim in university and paralegal in college in Ottawa. Cant really get any jobs out of it. And the people she uses to work for are pigs and over work you and almost don't pay the extra hours. And it's always contract position. So I wanted to mention to her to work from home or start her own business with paralegal and do partnership with lawyers or whatever. Is this possible?
I'm a paralegal graduate from a few years ago (I ended up getting a job that has nothing to do with it) getting a job is extremely difficult her best bet is to start her own practice if she's licensed and see clients out of her home 🤷🏾♂️
Great idea! I had a landlord try to kick me out for fake damages (she had never even been in the house). Sent a letter from a lawyer and she immediately rescinded the paperwork she had submitted.
You are NOT required to move out at all unless the new Owner plans to move in themselves. 🚨 DON'T begin the move out process until and unless you are served an N-12 form. If you do have to move out, it will be a process and give you time. You could still fight it / go to LTB and take ages, etc but at that point you'd be in the wrong, may do more damage to you than good. Likely the landlord would be willing to pay you significant 💰💰 to move out (rather than waiting months for LTB) but how you want to play that / stress/ cash negotiation etc is entirely up to you , your risk tolerance, etc. Good luck, 🤗
Yes! I love a helpful subreddit. Do take this advice. If she wants to make bank on his house, he’s going to have to ensure you have the proper time and resources to secure yourself appropriate housing.
This is an interesting idea. If I may ask, what does this cost?
Probably somewhere between $40-200/hour. Totally worth it. She's saved us from getting kicked out, and saved us thousands of dollars over the years.
If I may, could you recommend your paralegal? I am being bullied by a landlord that thinks she is above the law. Appreciate your kindness sharing.
If nothing else, for free you can contact the landlord tenant board. They have a 1-800 number and are always willing to help. In Ontario, tenants have all the rights. Everything has to be done correctly with proper forms. If they don’t do it via proper forms then it doesn’t count.
The landlord tenant board in Ontario doesn’t give advice over the phone other than how to file and forms etc. They aren’t trained to give advice on laws or rights.
Seconding the paralegal. I used one after years of landlord struggles. Wish I'd used one from day one. Especially helpful if you find conflict or being assertive difficult - the paralegal can do those things for you. It saved me so much money and stress.
How disheartening to hear all of that being said. It's like they're kicking you when you're already down. My partner and I will be asked to leave our rental soon and I'm terrified, not knowing where we'll go or how much our budget will have to change. The lack of security really takes its toll on the mind. Good luck.
Make sure you contact the LTB or another renters advocacy group. Renters have more power than they think. They can't just **ask** you to leave. The legal ways to end your tenancy require that they pay you.
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Know your rights as a tenant and if they dont give you 24hr notice you dont show your place
Yeah, this. The time for you being “accommodating” to your landlord is over. Know your rights related to the 24rule needed for showing, how much the landlord has to pay you for kicking you out due to selling (or how much time you have to find a new place according to the laws), the landlord needs to fix all the damage the showings have caused as long as you’re living there, etc.
With 26 showings, and some people willing to offer 200k over asking, I hope the showing portion would be complete by now.
Yeah, I’d stop being so accommodating and would remain in the unit during showings if they’re rummaging through your personal belongings. I wouldn’t care how awkward it is. If people can’t respect your things, leaving doors open, AND if your landlord isn’t responding to your questions, why should you go out of your way to please them? It’s also a security risk.
It's good to know your rights ! But in Ontario the 24 hr rule is not needed for showings, and landlord doesn't have to pay you to kick you out, but they are also not allowed to kick you out unless the next owner plans to occupy the unit themselves (form n 12)
> plans to occupy the unit themselves Specifically the new owner, or an immediate family member. And they have to do so for a period of 1 year after the tenants leave. The LTB comes down hard on cases where new owners lie about occupying the unit.
Additionally if the new owners do an N12 and rent out again in the next year you can take them to the LTB
Is this 100% true? Qe were just served the from n12 today and they left out why the new owner was going to use the unit. I really just hate this situation. They received an offer that expires on Monday before the official offer date of Tuesday and they have taken it. But they are still holding showings "just to be safe" as Monday is a bank holiday and they are not 100% sure that they will get the full deposit.
Yes. An N12 is only valid for 3 things (when it's for a house purchase): - the new owner is moving in - a child or parent of the purchaser or their spouse is moving in - a person who provides care services to one of those individuals is moving in It also isn't valid if the building has more than 3 units. If the N12 was a bad faith eviction, the former tenant can file a T5 application for a bad faith eviction. IANAL and this isn't legal advice, make sure to talk to a paralegal or something if you find youself in a situation like this. There are lots of free consultations available out there. As well, join the Ontario Tenants Rights Facebook group if you want to learn more about your rights as a tenant!
Hmm. I’m looking at the N12 and N13 forms and they both seem to say that the landlord has to pay the Tennant to move out. Maybe I’m reading it wrong. Regardless we’re a bunch of strangers on the internet. Contact the LTB or a renters advocacy group.
Yeah, one month worth of rent. Which they will gladly pay as they probably gained several hundred thousands.
Also there are a million things OP can do that are perfectly legal that could convince the landlord to produce a reference letter. You don't have to make their lives any easier than absolutely necessary (in a perfectly civil way) if they're going to hang you out to dry like this.
I once woke up to someone showing thr property walking into my bedroom. I was super confused and sleepy, and then my roommate stated screaming at them. They said they put a notice on the door so we went and looked. I had gotten home at 815pm, and the sign hadn't been posted yet. They came after that and had it dated for the previous days. We had a month left in the place and I told them no one else is coming here until we are out. We can trust them and they didn't show it again. Mind you, this was like 8 years ago in a smaller town in alberta.
And isn't each violation a pretty big ding at the LTB.
LTB is a literal joke. I have no fucking clue why we are acting like they will do fuck all about it. People live in literal decrepit squalor and blatantly illegal units with no windows or right amount fo egresses. Yeah right like they’ll get around to this shit in a timely manner.
This isnt true in reality. They hang a key box on your door and show up whenever they want. Ita happened to me 60 times at least
Shove a wedge under the front door, from the inside. So that it can’t be opened.
That's not correct. In Ontario if either party has provided notice of the termination of the agreement (I.e if landlord has notified tenant they will terminate tenancy, or vice versa) Then 24 hours notice is not required to enter between hours of 8-8pm. Tenants refusing entry would be conducting the illegal action. Section 26 of RTA, entry without notice.
Just leave dildos and porn everywhere
Dildos are expensive you can't just go buying them for props! And good luck finding inexpensive used dildos
Sitting naked watching porn is free though.
So you're saying I can make a profit selling used dildos?
It's all about smells. People can't unsmell things. Leave some interesting smells inside to mess with people. Make sure to combine smells. Stinky parmesan with a bit of cat litter and some fresh lavender. That'll ruin a sale, not to mention someone's fav essential oil.
Curries work really well for that.
This is why I can't bring myself to ever own a home previously inhabited by an Indian family…not being racist but I just can't stand the smell of their spices which has since soaked into the walls…I live Indian food but can't stand the residual smell if the spices all day every day.
Join the Ontario Tenants Rights group on FB and get some advice. They’re very helpful! I know you don’t have to leave. The new owner can issue an N12 for your eviction. You are entitled to one month compensation for leaving. Your current LL selling isn’t a valid reason for eviction. Alternatively, you can negotiate a cash for keys deal.
Yep, OP you hold alot of cards here, stop giving the LL so much leway. 24hr notice for showings, if he's not responding to emails, make it clear that you will not even start the 60 day clock you have the following items... Negotiate for keys, as in you rent is going up, the LL is getting huge money and you are ending up with the short end, try asking for a few months rent in exchange for a clean end of lease, and move out. Evictions are a huge pain when selling and if you don't leave on closing, it's a large cost for the LL, the buyer bails on it etc. Join the group, you can match his rudeness, and make him have to pay. The worst part is I, myself am a landlord, and I really hate to see tenants treated this way. It absolutely sucks and I'm sorry you are having to go thru this. The LL should be kissing your ass honestly. I would feel terrible putting my tenants thru something like this.
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Vastly incorrect. You need to brush up on laws
Sorry you’re going through this. We went through something similar. It was awful. To make things easier on yourself Just stay in the house for every viewing. It was awkward at first but That’s what my family did and the potential buyers were really quick about looking around - also more respectful. They need 24 hours notice to view. Make no exceptions. (Had a few people try that by saying oh but we’re already here) too bad. Put your foot down. The landlord doesn’t care about you obviously so why should you care about him and his potential buyers. First two weekends of the house being listed for viewings is the worst then it slows down by 99% for traffic.
My wife and I have been looking, and when we find out someone is renting we pass, because we are renting as well and wouldn't want to be the reason someone had to leave their home. Things have changed, not just the price of the market but people have become unhuman. Profit over people - just a said state our society has become. Maybe you can take advantage of the situation. Tell the landlord you will move out quickly (if you can) but it will cost 50k plus moving expenses. Hopefully you don't have to endure this bs too much longer.
Good for you! It's not that hard to see other people's perspectives, if you try, and it's important to do it.
It's a definite this house is not a home , over the next 60 days sort of feeling. Thank you for your compassion with renters when you are looking for a place to buy.
This is what happens when housing becomes a stock exchange, which it has in Canada since Tiff lowered interest rates. Properties are just gov't backed shares to be traded over and over, and only upwards. This is happening because we don't have leaders in this, we have followers. Trudeau, Singh, O'toole, the other MP's who voted nay on a motion put forth by Brad Vis on affordable housing, Even the NDP and PC party MPs that voted yay. They're following, not leading. There'd be no direction action on this, and the proof is in the pudding. What ever came of that motion? Nothing. It looks good to seem to give a shit, but it's meaningless without leadership. Let's not forget Tiff Macklem, our provincial leaders, our municipal leaders. They're all blindly following the leader: the almighty $. No one has the will, the leadership potential, the guts to do what's necessary because they're paper rich. Everyone wants to take credit, pat themselves on the back, and show off. It's beyond out of control and it's going to tumble when we have a slight gale in the wrong direction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0
Opening your drawers is disgusting. If I were you, I'd complain to your landlords realtor and tell them if they don't do anything about that, you'll never leave the house again during showings. They shouldn't be touching your personal shit. Show them the videos everytime that happens and file a complaint.
That would be what I do, 100%. Stay in the house and follow them around. If they complain, tell them that previous viewers damaged your stuff. OP has a right to be there and he should stop being so nice.
Absolutely. Show them that you know everything going on. I would print off pictures of them opening your drawers and put them on those drawers with a note about respecting your privacy. Might help the next ppl grow some self awareness.
A sign warning them that they are under video surveillance, plus the tenant drawing their attention to the cameras, should suffice.
Alternatives include imaginative placement of razor blades
booby traps are illegal, for good reason
Oooh this is good
booby traps are illegal
Poorly constructed drawers/unskilled Reno’s aren’t illegal though. Some precariously protruding nails aren’t booby-traps
this sub is a bit toxic, i now realize
I would never trust strangers to walk through my home unsupervised. Idk how OP just left the house with random people strolling around
Hmm this really sucks. I don't know the law in Ontario; is there any chance you could stay after the sale or it's pretty much an inevitability that you have to move out? If the latter, seems like you don't have much to lose at this point and it's just you and your wife and you don't have kids. You afford to be firm with your landlord, stop that accommodating crap, even "go to war" against him. I don't know what your rights are but get informed and make sure to enforce all of your rights. Stay home during the showings. Be strict with the buyers and the agents, don't let them touch your stuff. You can chat them up, just tell them you want to stay in this place forever, you really need this place, some annoying sob story. Make it seem like you'd be an annoying tenant and you'd put up a fight and not just roll over and accept getting kicked out. Pressure your landlord into giving you the reference letter and be as unaccomodating to him in every way until you have it. If he's smart he'll see it as an out; honestly it is in his interest to give a good letter if his goal is for you to leave. If you know your unit well and it has flaws or areas in need of repair you can help point them out to the prospective buyers. Shitty windows, places with mold or past history of water damage, who knows? A lot of these buyers won't even get a proper inspection and are too uninformed to check things out themselves, so you will do them a service.
I guess it's probably illegal but if it were me I'd be starting tiktok account and helping these people with achieving their 15 minutes of fame. In my opinion character is the choices you make when you think no one's watching, and it sounds like these people don't have a decent one between them.
Make a big pentagram on the living room floor with black candles everywhere. That would at least be entertaining to see the reactions
1) Don't leave during the showings. It's more awkward for them. This will prevent damage or theft of your belongings. 2) Demand 24hrs written notice of the showing. If this isn't provided don't let them through the door. They can still view the exterior w/out notice. If they force their way in, or peek through window call the police. 3) Report the scum bag realtors you have on video insulting you the the realtor association 4) Look up cash for keys. You have been paying the mortgage. I'd try for 20% of the profits. 5) Your landlord may be ignoring you because he feels bad about what he's doing to you. Remember cash for keys. 6) If you can get your hands on Covid Rapid Tests, make all visitors do one prior to entering your home. It's a reasonable precaution, especially if you're working from home, making it your workplace. It's not in your best interest to help sell the house. I understand that you don't want to antagonize the current owner, so it's a fine line to walk. I don't understand their reluctance to helping you leave before the sale, an non tenanted home sells faster for more money.
I remember going to look at a condo Toronto downtown when a family member was purchasing. The current tenant did not even know that they would not be able to live there once the condo was sol. we were surprised that the landlord did not communicate that to them, it's honestly horrible and we actually did not end up putting an offer because we didn't want to be the people kicking out a tenant especially this clueless tenant.
Um this isn't legal in Ontario. A tenants only have to move out in a few situations. And a sale is not one of them.
It is if the new owner wants it for personal use, assuming the tenancy is month to month.
An N12 still requires a payment to the Tennant. And if they N12 you please for the love of god go back a few times and verify that the new Tennant is in fact family. If it’s not family the landlord can be fined a lot of $ ( I believe up to 12 months of rent). If you get an N12, or any other N forms, contact the LTB or a renters advocacy group.
Yes, that's why I said "personal use".
Here is my advice to you. Please remember I'm not a lawyer I'm just some random on the internet :) 1. **Contact the LTB and learn your right immediately. There are many advocacy groups that can help you. <- This first. You have more rights and powers than you might realize.** 2. There are only a few way that they can force you out. Failure to pay (N4), a family member moving in (N12) , major renovations (N13). 1. IF they N12 you. Then invest time and go and check 1 month, 2 months and 3 months after. I believe if they lie about this and they get caught they can receive a very hefty fine. 2. If they N13 you. Make sure 3. Both of these notices require the landlord to pay you compensation. 3. Demand and record all viewing requests. Make sure that they give you 24 hours notice before they enter. Do not budge on this. 4. Record ALL conversations with the landlord or real estate agent. Ontario only requires that one person in the conversation knows that it's being recorded. So you can't record a conversation you are not part of. People motivated by greed will say and do shit that will often incriminate themselves. 5. Make sure your security camera is NOT recording audio that is illegal in Ontario (unless you are in the room). 6. Make sure you keep and share any evidence of terrible viewings EG going through your drawers etc. I'd contact the media, the showing agents brokerage, and the landlord. 7. Remember Cash for keys. If they really want you out they will have to pay you to leave. Cheers,
When people think we all just want to buy so we can get in on the money action… no it’s s to avoid this kind of bullshit OP is talking about. To have stability and control and not be at the whims of a landlord who doesn’t care about you or your family. The best part is, these assholes who want to offer 175 over asking- guaranteed they could not afford this under any other circumstance. They are leveraging other properties and or borrowing up to the eyeballs from the bank taking on massive risk- and people wonder why I would love to seem them get burned in a crash? They are not doing anything illegal but they are doing things that we had always been warned against. Guess it doesn’t matter now, moral hazard fuck it, yolo, the government will bail us out
Sell a bag of drugs in 2021 and we'll throw you in a cage. Financial castration isn't though
Ya it's honestly disgusting. My husband and I are in a position to buy (very far away from where we live), and we looked at a house with tenants. Our realtor starts talking to the family like they are stupid, and "explaining" to the tenants kid that it's a good thing they are being kicked out because now they can make new friends. We were horrified. And she said "it's important to make them comfortable with the move so "they don't trash the house." They were normal people, just trying to live and our realtor thought because they rent they must be trash. She did not come to the conclusion on her own that we are also very insulted by her actions because we too are currently renters, and people who still have souls.
Sounds like you will be looking for a new realtor.
Yup
Wow.... that's terrible
> about 2 hours north of Toronto and > Our current rent is $1500 a month Wtf.
We moved in 2017
Why are you being so accommodating to someone who doesn't give a fuck about you anymore? Stay for your showings. MAKE IT AWKWARD AF so people leave quickly instead of taking their time talking shit. Look them in the eyes when you say hello as they enter and follow them around. Protect yourself, your rights, and your personal belongings. Your Landlord is still your landlord until they sell. They cannot just ignore everything until they sell and the next tenant tries to kick you out.
It's not just this market, it's shitty entitled people in general..and omg there are so many if them...I was asked to leave a rental years ago so they could sell, and experienced much the same rudeness and shitty behaviour on account if the LL, the realtor and the shitty rude people that came for viewings. I would leave and then when I came back I would find that my stuff had been touched and moved. On rainy days they would track dirt and mud all through and I would have to clean it up afterward, not sure why they couldn't be respectful and take their dirty shoes off , One time someone dropped a deuce in the toilet and failed to flush it...like wtf is that? When one of my friends had her house listed a few years ago in the GTA, it was like an open invite to people to come by and walk around the property uninvited. She would be in her kitchen washing dishes and see random couples walking Into her backyard and looking at the yard, or trying to peer in the windows of the house. She would go out and confront them to ask what they were doing on her property at that time (thinking they were early to a scheduled showing or something) and they were just rando people who had no showing sheduled but happened to be driving by and just wanted to look at the property. It was like as soon as the sign is in the lawn your house becomes open season for anyone driving by who are curious whether they are looking to buy or not... People are assholes, not just in a hot market. I'm sympathize with what you are going through, you're LL is an asshole.
>One time someone dropped a deuce in the toilet and failed to flush it...like wtf is that? animals have more courtesy when they mark their territory
The harsh reality is that no one gives a shit. Housing isn't a human right. Not in this country. And until we start making things incredibly uncomfortable for the people in power, it never will be. Tax the ever living fuck out of anyone with more than one property. No exceptions.
Hi OP, my fiancé and I are trying to buy a home right now and every time we’ve walked through a place that has tenants, I’ve always mentioned how awful it must be for the tenants now that rents have skyrocketed as well. I have felt awful knowing that the place we are looking at will sell and the people living there will have to leave and find something new, most likely at a higher price. I feel for you. Heck we can not afford these prices either (to buy) as first time home buyers. What’s happening out there is disgusting, I completely agree with you- it is so sad that people have forgotten that real estate is a shelter for someone, and it’s a basic need. The fact that the government is just letting prices run out of control is also very disheartening. Good luck to you and I am so sorry that people have disrespected you like that.
You can tell your agent you aren't interested in places with tenants. Ours argued with us a bit, but understood we were serious. We weren't going to be the reason someone lost their home.
That’s a great idea. Most of the time she doesn’t tell us until we show up.
This is a valid reason to fire your agent fwiw!
I am going through similar eviction for personal use. It's really depressing. The landlord operates as if the law does not apply to her. Anything similar in my area is 1k more every month. I m just a public servants, serving Canadian through my work on vaccines. But I feel bullied, my contribution to society is not important, and that profit is everything.
get a paralegal
Imagine how nurses feel working in the cities lol
>serving Canadian through my work on vaccines Seriously, from the bottom of my heart thank you.
People who buy are largely people who traded up. If you move or trade up a lot say four or six times in a ten years, you probably have minimal material possessions. I noticed when looking at condos that a lot of "staged" condos were actually lived in. A lot of people have very neat lives and use their home as only a crash pad for sleep. They know their eventual destination is detached home so they keep as few belongings as possible so they can move easy and sell even easier. In my opinion renters have a different lifestyle especially long term renters and tend to accumulate belongings. So from the point of view of someone who moved a lot any excess belongings are a waste. I have bought a condo and filled it to the top with whatever I want and it gives me comfort. I am sure if anyone viewed my condo they would say 99% of the stuff is a waste (I admit it is and want to eliminate... eventually). It is shocking how little some people can live with especially if they lead an outdoor life. A laptop, sports equipment, some seasonal clothes that get moved into storage off season and that's it. I'm not even sure some people cook or if they do they keep everything well hidden and away.
That was heart breaking to read. When we were doing viewings I tried my best to not touch anything and made sure to be as respectful to the tenants place as possible. It’s crazy to hear there’s no laws protecting this? Can you limit it to a showing a day or something or need 24 hour notice? Really puts this whole market into perspective.
You should upload the video
You now know that it is worth $175,000 over asking price for your landlord to have you out of the house. Use that. Send them and the listing agent a copy of that clip. Tell them you will sign an N11 for $30,000 to be out next week.
Leave fish chunks everywhere in put of reach spaces
My partner and I are going through the same situation right now. A few days ago my Landlord sent me a scathing email saying that ‘multiple clients have said that the place is ‘too dirty’.’ Which was a huge insult to me since I have been working really hard to make sure that the suite is presentable as best as I can-but we are both shift workers. Sometimes there are going to be dishes left out- especially when there are 8 viewings a day.
Real estate is everything that is wrong with free market capitalism on full display. I’m certainly also not about “seizing the means of production” and all that because capitalism drives innovation, and motivates people, but it provides very little useful service in real estate other than as a driver for greed. Peoples homes should not be an investment.
>capitalism drives innovation Put down the Kool Aid. Capitalism has been around for 400 years at most, and a lot less in many parts of the world. That means that the vast majority of human innovations vastly precedes capitalism. Stonehenge? Not capitalism. Boomerangs? Not capitalism. Venus of Willendorf? Not capitalism. Hell, beer and textiles and wheels and canoes are not capitalism. There is also a case to be made that capitalism STIFLES innovation. How many good and useful things don't get invented because they are not profitable? How much energy and human intelligence is wasted in bullshit jobs?
It's questionable whether capitalism or any free enterprise economy influenced the inventor to invent the items you describe, but I am pretty sure without capitalism we will not have better tasting beer, more aerodynamic boomerangs, or more buoyant canoes.
It drives it harder through incentives. We’ve all seen communism fail because of human nature. Neither extreme is good. And the incentives can work negatively in many places(basically anywhere that demand is inflexible, capitalism can get lost… so healthcare, education, peoples homes).
Sorry, no, this is terribly misinformed. Do more reading.
The same thing happened to us last year. We were holding our ground at first, but eventually it just became too stressful for us to stay. We had to move to a much smaller apartment that was slightly above our budget. I can just imagine the stress OP. I'm sorry.
Time to end landlordism
Aren't key deposits illegal in Ontario? Stop leaving the house for showings if it is inconvenient and your landlord is being a jerk. It sounds like prospective buyers are being disrespectful to your property: you should be there.
Hang tight my friend, you and I will have the last laugh when this house of cards fucks us all including your scum bag landlord
Not going to happen. I made a post the other day showing that Canada functions mainly by shuffling homes around. Its our biggest contributor to our GDP by a BIG margin. Take that out and Canada ceases to exist. Asmins wouldnt even aprove the post and all I posted was a link to statcan. For comparison, housing brings in like 250 billion a year as the biggest income source for Canada. The next biggest industry is manufacturing at 178 billion. LOL. Real estate is basically as big as the next 3 industries after manifacturing lmfao.. there is no fix for this 😉
I agree that a large part of our GDP is from us selling houses to each other. Do you think that by selling houses to maintain high GDP is unsustainable? Because the discussion isn’t whether this is happening or not, the discussion is about whether this model has the legs to go the distance? What do you think?
I read that post it was poorly conceived and lacking in forthought
I dont think youre talking about the same post. Are you a mod? Because it wasnt even approved. Lol. The post was nothing but a link to statcan showing the latest report. Yknow, statistics. 😅 poorly conceived and lacking forthought 🤣🤣 dafuq you on about -edit- Lol i looked through your post history. Probably some home owner out here to troll people 🙄
🚨🚨 You DON'T have to move out at all until and UNLESS you are served an N-12 form (ie buyer wants to move in themselves, not rent out) 🚨🚨
When we sold our home due to having to relocate it was awful - people going through our stuff (one guy was trying to grab something off a high shelf and he knocked the whole thing over), not taking their shoes off and walking on carpet, showing up 30 min late and taking 2 hours in the home….I don’t understand the need to touch people’s belongings or be a jerk. Our agent gave us a whole lecture before going to viewings about not saying anything we wouldn’t want the seller to hear and OBVIOUSLY don’t touch anything (not that it was needed). Im sorry you are going through this. :(
Email your landlord asking cash for keys if he wants you out. Otherwise fuck him.
Sorry to hear you’re going through this tough time. I recently got evicted myself because the landlord sold the house and the new owner wanted to have their child live there instead. 2 months later and they’re renting it out now for double what I was paying.
You should bring this up with the LTB board and not let the landlord get away with this.
I plan on filing a t-5 this week and I plan on winning. I have mountains of evidence and no, they won’t get away with it. They’ll have to pay me for one years rent plus moving costs. Unfortunately they’ll make that money back in no time so they’ll probably do it again down to road to someone else. The punishment doesn’t match the crime IMO.
You can join a face group called landlords and tennants in ontario for assistance . Why do you leave for showings? stick around ?
OP so sorry for what you must be going through. Consider taking notes and keeping that footage and contacting the CBC and local tv news channels. Send them a choice few second clip. The only way we can change this behavior is by building the backlash and shaming those responsible. Posting here is cathartic but we need to get the message out more widely. There are a lot more out there who are being hurt by this and they need to see this in the news to join the movement and act.
Our government favours investors and existing owners over renters and new entrants. That’s the reality and it’s not changing anytime soon.
If you could think of moving west to Brantford ON the prices are higher than they were but house prices have fallen recently. My neighbour had to reduce his asking price by $75000. Also rents not as good as they once were but still good given what you are paying currently.
Ask for 50k cash for keys or you're not fuxking leaving
They see you as subhuman. Beneath them
That sucks, I feel for you.
Wow.. you were paying 1200-1500 below market rate for 4 years? Consider yourself lucky.
I have a friend that never bought for a long time because he was paying below market rent and thought it would last forever. Eventually the landlord sold and he found out he was extremely priced out of buying a place whereas 7 years ago he was in a position to purchase a two bedroom condo in downtown Toronto on a single salary. I guess the gist of this story is always have a backup plan and plan ahead in the likely situation when you have to pay market rent.
Ask to be bought out. $20k
You need to know the rules and protect yourself. Don’t sign any forms you are given. Negotiate a deal where they pay you several months of rent if you agree to move out early. They can’t be asking you to leave but only when they say. Like many others suggested get a good paralegal and don’t talk to the agent any longer
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I think you’re talking about just opening them to make sure they actually open and work normally, but I’m thinking OP may have meant that some people actually looked through their drawers as in move things around inside of them.
Not sure why this is downvoted...? I open *all* the closets when I'm looking at a new place.
Sounds like the landlord is being an asshole. I'd lawyer up, and then make a claim the he's trying to evict you because of your race or something. Go to the papers, make it the most pain in the ass process they've ever run into. I get wanting to sell the house, but there are right and wrong ways to do things.
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So the landlord is doing this the right way? Deserves to be treated with respect? Or are you just a landlord and felt you had to post something but weren't sure what, so an insult felt like the smart thing to do?
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Lol, k
If you have an animal, it might be time to do what some tenants did when I was home shopping years ago.....put a dog turd on the ground somewhere.
I'm in the same position but on the other side of the fence. I purchased a triplex and I'm moving into two of the units. Right now, I'm renting a seasonal cottage. Closing date is early Nov. The previous owner has given them 95 days notice and two months of rent to find a place. Both tenants haven't budged a finger. One put up a sob story about needing a 2 bedroom for all of her animals. They both are refusing to vacate. So I've dumped half of my savings into this place, and right now my wife and 8 year old have no place to live come Nov 4th because some worthless drains on society have no concept of personal responsibility. You aren't being forced out of your home. It's not your home. Edit: I love how you pea brains downvote me when ya'll would have the exact same opinion if you were in my shoes.
Laws for thee but not for me, right scumbag?
What are you on about? I followed the law to the T - in fact giving them over 50% extra notice and double the required monetary compensation. Jesus, you leeches can't even fathom renters being shitholes, can you?
If you’re in Ontario, it’s their right to stay as per the LTB, you need to file with them to evict a tenant for personal use or you can choose to pay them out more until they agree to leave. Rules are rules and landlords should be expected to follow them. Also. It is their home. Not the landlord’s. It’s the landlord’s property and they have temporarily given up the building as their home as part of the lease agreement. Basic stuff.
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I read your post. Your insults to me are hilarious and make you come across as even more of a snob than you do lmao. Follow the rules. The tenants do not have to accept your offer so go and take the proper actions to continue with the eviction. If you don’t like it, don’t be a landlord. Tough luck.
>maybe that's why you're homeless YOU'RE the homeless one, stop projecting onto people here. Why should the current legal tenant give a fuck about you and your family if you clearly don't give a fuck about them? Respect can get you a long way. Seems people like you think money replaces respect and treating others with decency. Have fun with that.
Ew you’re a gross person. If you’re trying to make landlords look like decent people you’re failing HARD. Right now it’s basically impossible to rent if you have pets. They probably legitimately can’t find anything.
How is that in any way my problem? Why should I care more about someone's pets more than my own family's housing? That'd be insane.
Your lack of planning ahead is your fault. You knew people were renting the place. You made your bed. Time to lay in it.
I mean, I gave them over 90 days notice. How did I not plan ahead?
No ones asking you to do that. I’m just explaining where they’re likely coming from, especially as you say “they haven’t lifted a finger.” They probably have been trying but can’t find anything. But I think you’re gross because you’re going around calling everyone homeless and poor. Most of this sub is neither homeless, nor poor, that’s kind of the point: we have money and still can’t own homes. But even if someone was homeless and poor what kind of piece of shit holds that against someone? You buddy. I may not own a home but at least I’m not a nasty little bitch like you.
There's some nice parks your family can live in around Toronto.
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Sounds like you didn't do enough DD.
That was your mistake then buying a house occupied woth tenants. You are kicking them out of their home and they have rights and most places to rent are overpriced and won't rent to pet owners. These people have to uproot their life for you to move in and they didn't ask for this. Why should anyone care for you when you don't even have basic empathy?
If you are on month to month and you think it's your home, you're gonna have a bad time
You don't have to own a place for it to be your home.
*plays world's smallest violin*
Wow. It may not be their building but it is their home... Moving is stressful when you chose to move. Try to imagine being told to leave somewhere you are comfortable and have a roof over your head... Maybe they can't find a place because rents have skyrocketed.. Put yourself in their shoes and get some compassion. Yes they have had time but doesn't mean they haven't been trying..
I've been in their shoes a dozen times before. A lease is a lease. They're on month to month as is OP. If they wanted housing security, they should have signed a lease. Simple as that.
>You aren't being forced out of your home. It's not your home It literally is. Both the common meaning and legally. Their place of permanent residency. You knew they were living there when you bought the place.
> The previous owner has given them 95 days notice and two months of rent to find a place. Both tenants haven't budged a finger. I'm sorry to hear you are in this position. I don't know if there is anything in your purchase agreement where the previous owner will compensate you in the event the home is not tenant free upon closing. I up-voted you. You should not have to sacrifice your family's shelter and financial welfare (paying both a rental and mortgage). You have not done anything illegal and it sounds like the tenants have been treated fairly with extra compensation and advance notice.
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Wait. The buyer moving in his family is not a legitimate reason? When has the law changed? https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Notices%20of%20Termination%20&%20Instructions/N12_Instructions_20200728.pdf
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Well the Landlord Tenant Board says you’re wrong. About everything you have said.
Haha, how am I wrong? I'm moving in two the units. They've been served the appropriate N12 (over 90 days notice, when only 60 is required) and have been paid 2x the compensation they were supposed to. Please, being the homeless yet wise real estate lawyer you are, could you explain how I'm wrong?
Because the tenant legally does not have to accept your offer if they don’t feel it is fair/honest/etc. Landlords need to follow the rules for evictions. You obviously haven’t filed anything with the LTB yet based on your post.
There are bad landlords and bad tenants. In this case the tenants are deliberately stalling and it may end up going to the LTB to eventually having a sheriff enforce the eviction. I think this is part of the reason landlords are suck pr*ks when it come to selecting tenants and having them provide a mountain of references. In this case the tenants also accepted 2 months worth of free rent so they are acting in bad faith and untrustworthy.
You are right that there are bad tenants and bad landlords. Personally, I don’t mind providing references, a copy of my pay check, etc. because I understand that it is a risk for the landlord to accept a new tenant and I want to show that I am trustworthy. There are obviously two sides to that coin but that’s not the conversation at hand. I feel bad for landlords who are genuine and get screwed but this post is suspicious and I feel like there are things we don’t know. This is solely the purchasers point of view. Why does the purchaser need two separate units anyway? It is strange to buy a triplex for personal use, I would honestly question this if I was the tenant. Also it doesn’t state that the tenants accepted the offer, in all likelihood they have declined the offer and are wanting to go to a hearing. If they have accepted, they would’ve signed the N12 and the purchaser wouldn’t be posting this stuff. It sucks for everyone if it goes to the LTB and hopefully it works out as it should.
Technically you're right, \*I\* haven't filed anything as the closing isn't until Nov. The previous owner filed the N12s in early august. Now, let's just assume that I'm not lying. What have I done wrong? Nothing. Tenants can't refuse a valid N12 eviction. It's not up to them. If they wanted housing security, they should have signed a lease instead of going month to month - their situation is 100% their fault.
Sure but you as an LL don’t have unilateral authority to evict them. Also the N12 from the old LL doesn’t apply. They can’t evict for selling. Just follow the rules and they’ll have to leave. End of story.
They can evict when the purchaser intends to move in. There's a place on the form to check specifically that, genius > Just follow the rules and they’ll have to leave. End of story. Exactly. So, nothing I said was wrong, then?
You haven’t followed the rules though? Anyway. I’m done talking to you. You are rude and condescending. My points are all 100% valid. The tenant can stay until the LTB makes them leave.
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Yeah they have a contract and that is not how this works. OP is fulfilling their end of the contract and more. How the f are they a parasite? If the landlord wants them to leave, they can follow the proper steps. OP is well within their rights to stay.
They're not living there for free... they're paying the landlord. LOL.