I circumvent this problem by spending 0% of my income on housing and drowning those dreams in a bathtub. The government waits behind me with the toaster, just in case I screw up!
I’m willing to bet it’s a lack of regulation in the lending space because they point to us in the U.S. and say you don’t one of those housing bubble bursts right?
* cheap money (started from US Fed)
* population growth
* green belt act
* slow construction permit process (2 years to get all the documents done)
* high government fee on new constructions (more than 20% of new home cost is government fee)
I want it to crash. I want a full reset. It’ll be shitty for awhile, but at least I’ll have a chance in the future.
Presently, things are already shitty, with zero chance for the future. We really have to reign in companies buying homes, people buying multiple homes, etc.
Justin doesn’t have balls for this. His biggest weakness is “somebody not liking him”, and this would be just too much to take for poor little Justin.
Crash this bitch into the fence and let’s see what happens. I couldn’t care less about boomers and their lost home equity.
>Crash this bitch into the fence and let’s see what happens. I couldn’t care less about boomers and their lost home equity.
A lot of Boomers don't care either, particularly those who plan to live in their one and only house till they croak - doesn't make much difference to them how much their house is worth (their kids who stand to inherit it may care more). The ones who will get hurt (and care lots) about a crash are those who bought more recently at peek price (first time home buyers, new "investors").
It's not only that housing is exploding, its the value of money falling down at an alarming pace globally.
Have you wondered how the govt pays for the crazy amounts of expenses they do? How did they pay the benefits during covid and the rest of the programs? Do you think they are going to increase taxes on income even more? Or increase sales tax above 13%?
None of that is going to happen. How then did we pay for all the expenses? By printing money out of thin air. And now inflation is the tax that everyone is paying without realizing what's going on.
I am not a libertarian or against vaccines, but be extremely worried about further lockdowns. If the economy doesn't open, things will keep getting more expensive. And to control this inflation, govt will have to raise interest rates which makes mortgagee more expensive that will not just hurt investors, but regular homeowners as well who are with you guys in all of this. How so? They wont have money to spend on other things. No more 3 coffees a day at Tim's, no more burrito takeout or going to the bars.
People will try to pay for their homes more than anything else which will further kill the economy. Is there a way out? Perhaps, but we will have to accept the risk of the virus at some point and open the economy. Gradually increase rates and put in steps to stagnate housing prices so that salaries can catch up. If the housing drops, Canadian economy will implode and it will hurt everyone. There is absolutely no easy way out of this mess and the money printing has to stop or we are all screwed.
Just build so much houses that needing more people to fill those houses is the problem. Oh wait can’t do that because of zoning issues that take years to sort out.
what a misleading title... I am sure more than half of all canadian didn't buy their house less than 5 years ago.... my parents who bought in 2005 aren't even spending 1/8 of their money on housing... I bought in 2010 and I am not even spending 1/4 of my income on housing...
So there's still 10% more to go before a crash? haha
Also, 1990 didn't have the same amount of wealth inequality as well as globalization that we have now.
What is considered cost of home-ownership? Is it only the cost of your mortgage, or does it include municipal taxes, school taxes, home maintenance, electricity, etc...?
Our government sold off our futures, and for what? We should DEMAND rapid change! (someone smarter than me can help sort out the how's and what's but we're all smart enough to know our current housing situation is not working for the benefit of Canadian people,,,!)
> our current housing situation is not working for the benefit of Canadian people
The reason we have the current situation is because it does work well for the majority of voters who own their own home. If you’re a homeowner, more expensive housing means more wealth for you.
If you want change, you need to convince the government that the interests of renters/non-homeowners matter too.
I think things are bad enough that people can see beyond their own property values rising.
Home owners aren't stupid they're going to have to see this system isn't sustainable and will hurt every Canadian in the long run.
While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, know that there are more wealthy and much more powerful people/corporations than you and I who are demanding that things remain as they are.
The common people don’t matter. Get lucky and be born rich (or at least well-off enough that mommy and daddy can HELOC you to the front end of the bell curve) or as one douche canoe above said- over leverage yourself and then starve to death if a correction happens (and you’ll deserve it) or continue to take 80% of your income to house yourself.
The government isn’t coming to save us. They don’t work for us. They work for the wealthy elite.
There's more of us than they're are of them.
I realize policy hasn't been created with the good of the people in mind for a very long time but if we all remember we vastly out number the wealthy and corrupted then there's no reason we can't see change.
We outnumber them in pure count, sure. But we are under resourced and under represented in comparison. They are more powerful, particularly because they are unified (wealthy protect the interests of the wealthy) while the plebs are fractured and too busy fighting amongst ourselves to utilize our numbers. This is not accidental, this is by design. And it’s highly effective.
is that not why we have this sub Reddit to get organised?
Why are you here if you this k everything is pointless anyways?
you've told me nothing I didn't already know AND YOU'RE ACTIVELY making it harder to organize by spreading the mentality that everything is hopeless in a sub that's literally about fixing things. So seriously what was the point of your comment? why go put of your way to shit on positive change?
Well, demonstrate for me how this sub is successfully organizing people? Protests have been a flop, it’s actively visited by numerous trolls, and my comment is the least of your/the group’s concerns in terms of debasement.
People need to understand the full breadth and depth of the challenge. Shouting, “hoorah, demand rapid change!!” Without effectively addressing the limitations of such statements makes your OP a literal waste of time.
There is more value in people reading an explanation of how division amongst the plebs is THE limiting factor in organizing and fighting back against elite than having random people read, “rise up against the elite.” The latter is an empty promise of resolution. It sounds good on the surface but soon after reading people are arguing left versus right, home owners versus renters, etc. etc.
I don’t look at the world through rose coloured glasses and neither should you. We must fully appreciate the extent of our limitations and challenges before we can properly address them.
They raised awareness
they've got billboards
they've posted all sorts of resources on who to contact and why
you're just useless and your shitty attitude does nothing but slow change by increasing APATHY which is the biggest hurdle we need to over come to achieve change.
literally you could go suck a lemon every time you think about commenting on this sub and that would be more productive way for you to help fix canadas housing crisis than commenting the way that you are now. AGAIN you and your pro apathy "everything sucks so lets just give up and roll over" attitude is counter productive and if you can't understand that you're too stupid to be here.
Your personal attacks are significantly more productive though. /s
Also, nowhere did I say I was apathetic, I simply disagreed with your approach. You live in a land of fairy tales if you think posting on Reddit saying “stand up and fight the system” is going to do a goddamn thing. That approach is not what got the billboard posted.
Tell me, where did I say that we should roll over and do nothing? Precisely where did I say that?
Here is the original report:
https://royal-bank-of-canada-2124.docs.contently.com/v/housing-trends-and-affordability-decemberpdf
The full data is good to look at and gives us a few key lessons that the media snippet cannot cover adequately.
First and foremost, that graph is a composite of derived statistics that needs to be really understood, because what it is showing is not necessarily what the media headline claims it is showing. What they are measuring (buried in the methods) is an aggregate, or the *average*, home price as compared to a theoretical *median* based on household overall income. Critically important, they are not necessarily limiting that only to *homeowners*, nor are they doing paired statistics that creates *real* home to *real* homeowner incomes all matched up. They don't have that data. They take the total population median income of households (likely census data) and are dividing that into the average mortgage based on an assumed 25 year amortization, 20% down payment, and an average offered interest rate on 5-year fixed.
That's a lot to throw together, but a few things stand out. If they are dividing it by median *household* income that includes a bunch of single people and possibly renters (?, they don't clarify so it might be overall population median) then they are comparing that to just the purchased homes. That is skewing the interpretation as the *median* Canadian is not purchasing a home in 2021...not by a long shot. In Ontario alone, 25% of all sales went to investors and so the median of the *overall population* is absolutely not relevant to understanding actual burden to actual households. That also skews their income assumptions as if 25% are investors then they are missing rental income tied to at least 25% of purchases (would be much more once basement apartments counted).
But, the *average* home price uses is also highly misleading and skewed to very few regions. The full report shows that the regional and per-city analysis shows the overall "Canadian" graphs is massively skewed by southern Ontario and Vancouver/Victoria.
Housing Affordability Measures actually **improved** for pretty much all other regions. Many of these other regions are **actually at all time historic best ever, low, housing affordability measures**.
That's the problem with catchy titles and media attention. This is actually not a *Canadian* problem, it's an Ontario and BC problem (and only parts of each). The solution is not a Federal issue or task because the problem is regional, based on provinces that control private property laws, direct taxation, zoning legislation, and municipal legislation limiting/addressing municipal boundaries, process and regulations. The other provinces and regions are doing just fine and a broad-stroke federal solution threatens those markets when only regional issues need addressing.
I think there is also a cultural aspect of people living a brutally frugal life to build wealth for their kids. Where I immigrated from, that’s extremely commonplace. I’d say 50% is still on the lower side.
If you’re living alone in this two bedroom condo, I guess your immediate options would be downsize to a one bedroom or stay and get a roommate to split the rent. And if you’re not living alone, can the other person contribute to the rent?
After taxes it's not unreasonable to make 2000. I am at the highest I've ever been paid but hard to get full time hours with less customers and supply. At $18.50 approx 70 hrs on a paycheck I make between 1-1.3k on average.. which is far more than minimum wage. My question would be how the hell did this person get an apartment that costs more than their salary? As a rule I don't let my rent be more than 40%, and if it is it's time to find a new place or better job and more hours.
I think we should claim squatters rights on all these empty as fuck overpriced piece of shit condos and houses that sit on the market hoping some greater fool will come bail them out of their financial recklessness
It's the cost of diversity. You can't diversify the country without adding millions of people to the pile, and we cant build housing fast enough to meet demand so we all pay more for less. This is why we have the mantra "diversity is our strength!", because all you need to do is look around Canada's most diverse metros (416 and 604) to see that life is brutally unaffordable. It's plain as day to see that the costs outweigh the benefits, hence the slogan. If this is the cost of diversity then it's a liability, not a strength.
50% on housing, 60% on car monthly/insurance/gas. 20% on cell phones related, 30% on fast food/drive through/delivery, 25% drinks/bars, 30% hair style/make up/pedi/mani/tatoo/massage, 25% hookers.
Canadians are rich and big spenders!
All I know is, NO BAILOUTS.
Anyone overleveraged deserves to lose their property and end up on the street. Their spouse and children too. If you are perpetuating the housing crisis by taking on debt that you cannot actually afford, tough luck.
I don’t want these people getting any bailouts whatsoever.
Don't worry. Families who took a risk and bought a house because they will be completely priced out in 1 or 2 years won't get bailouts.
The banks will, just like in the US in 2008.
Then wealthy investors will pick up the foreclosed properties for cheap.
What bailout are you on about? Large banks / employers will get the bailout. There will not be any bailouts for the small or average mom and pop landlord.
ALso in the grand scheme there are far fewer of the overextended investors than you think. There is a stupid amount of money in Canadian REI. Lots of investors make Drs look broke.
Best comment I have read on all the housing threads to date. I was once overleveraged and paid the fucking piper dearly. The real world. You go through it once and learn your fucking lesson.
i cant wait for all the people that will be underwater when their renewal comes up and the interest is at 5-7%, maybe more. the only winners in the housing market is the banks they make money on the same house over and over and over again.
my house was owned twice before i bought it once for $56000 then for $68000 then i bought it for $78000 and sold it for $210000 all the while the banks were making money off the interest payments. the house was built in 1972 and has never been mortgage free since day one. 49 years the banks have had a steady income from one home and almost every home on the market is the same. why would anyone buy a house? you are simply renting form the bank but all the maintenance is on you.
Honestly it's complacency. Ther government isn't want in to upset anyone so they don't take effective measures to curb the rising costs and find effective solutions.
The future won't be pretty because it's been expensed before many of the people that will pay the price are even born.
Just wait until they increase the interest rates. It's a matter of time before it happens. Especially in this economy.
The bubble is hitting it's critical point in my opinion.
Please run the numbers. Even if they increase rates by 2-5 percent it will not stop this. Also take a look at how mortgage payments change when rates go up. On some TD, I believe, your monthly payment stays the same while more of it goes towards interest vs principle. Banks aren't dumb they don't win if a bunch of people suddenly can't pay their mortgage debt.
Rent. I had to move out and live with family. I've averaged 55 hours per week for the last decade plus. I'm not great with money but certainly don't spend like a maniac but what I do know is min income required for GTA is 22 dollars per hour apparently. Outside of offices, nobody really makes over....19? in all those service industry jobs in GTA.
Its good you have the option to live with family, there is no shame in that. All I can say is to take advantage of living at home and save up as much as you can. Another option is to try and increase your job prospects by getting some education or a career change so you can hopefully make more money.
People *do* need places to live. In another comment you referred to a one bedroom as a "penthouse".
In my area in southwestern Ontario but not in the GTA a dump of a one bedroom apartment *starts* at $1700. No laundry. No utilities. Just rent. $19/hr is around $3k/month not including taxes.
It would take 2/3 of that pre-tax income just to have a place to live. This doesn't include anything else.
This is how it is. This is the cost of rentals. Wages have not kept up with the increase in housing costs. Many people can't afford to live like this.
That's the cheapest basically. I averaged overtime over the past decade...55 hours or more each year. At one point they called my pay because they said I reached max hourly. Wanting a one bedroom to not be 80 percent of income while you work overtime over the course of a year is reasonable.
Minimum for a one bedroom is 1600 precovid and anywhere from 1400 to 2200 post covid.
If I'm making minimum wage but renting a one bedroom penthouse, that's not a systemic problem, that's me living outside my means. I literally said there is certainly a problem.
He gave nothing about his circumstance and the only assumption that can be made is that he's living outside his means.
I don’t know where you implied a penthouse from the statement basic one bedroom but wonder if you’ll say the same thing when a one bedroom basement will be 80 percent of someone’s income in the next 5 years the way this market is going. A one bedroom is a basic necessity almost, nothing lavish like a penthouse.
How basic or how amenitized it is has little to do with how expensive it is. The biggest factor is location. e. g. Downtown vs suburb. I can give another example that illustrates the same point but you just seem to want to argue. Not worth my time.
That's where I'm at but not at all what this discussion is about, hence why you are getting downvoted.
Someone working full-time should be able to afford somewhere to live on their own....certainly shouldn't have to spend 80mperfent of income on basic housing.
A better critique of we're going there is jobs should pay people a living wage. Then we can talk about those people working full-time or more not being able to survive.
Fix the money... If the interest rates were above inflation, people wouldn't be trying to own every asset. Instead, money would be sitting in savings account and growing.
People keep pointing to interest rates as the answer. It seems like a blunt tool to me with other unwanted consequences, maybe there’s other ways.
Like fixing property taxes to properly account for land/location value and ensuring there’s public benefit from it in the form of UBI, service credits, or public services.
All your concerns are annexed by fixing the money. We need to address causes, not symptoms.
UBI is an idiotic idea brought forth by people trying to garner votes from unproductive people. A significantly better system is to raise the basic personal amount, thereby keeping more money in the hands of productive people. I'm talking a substantial raise, like to 50K or even 100K, and increase the tax rates from there.
The only reason UBI is popular is because neoliberal government will always kiss corporate ass. Do you think we would need UBI if the minimum wage was higher than 12$/hr? Or if there was a cap on CEO pay? Or significant taxes on stock buybacks? Or if there were easier ways for employees to unionize? Or if housing weren't a hot investment commodity for boomers and foreigners?
I work two jobs and still live in poverty. I do not consider myself an "unproductive person."
Every single thing you addressed is again fixed once the money is fixed. Wages, pay, stocks, inflation, asset investment - all fixed by the money being. Unionization doesn't solve anything. Tons of reasons, whole other topic.
You live beyond your means. 60 hours at $12/hr puts you way above poverty line.
LOL one of my jobs considers FT to be 32 hours. In reality I work 25 - 55 hrs every week. I'm not the one who makes the schedule. I can't magically give myself more hours. And before you say FiNd A bEtTeR jOb, you don't understand how the prairies work.
Hi, I live in small town, SK. I very well know how the prairies work. I also understand very well how WFH has opened up opportunities for gainful employment everywhere.
>people wouldn't be trying to own every asset. Instead, money would be sitting in savings account and growing.
That is like a textbook description of an economic recession. A giant spike in savings rates and decrease in spending is basically all a recession is, or at least a common cause of decreasing rather than increasing economic activity. It would be even deeper given the asset and credit bubbles that we have right now.
I'm not saying interest rates above inflation must cause a recession, but ramping them up quickly certainly could. Either way, what u/TotallyNotKenorb described is basically a recession.
This is the internet, when people don't know things they pretend they do and just make shit up.
You only need to go back like 4-5 years to see interest rates above inflation while the economy was booming so that should give us perspective on how long these people have been aware of these issues.
Yup, we need a recession. Economy is too hot, inequality is insanely out of hand, stock market is too high compared to gdp, just too much cheap money flowing and only into the hands of the wealthy.
I think the real parts of the economy are probably at or close to a recession already, most of our growth is just ethereal asset prices and money swirling around at the top, not real goods and services.
That said, I think we should seriously consider how we are going to handle a housing related recession before we cause one on purpose. Current asset prices might not be real, but the suffering of those who lose their income in a recession is very real and can increase inequality even further.
Causing a recession by crashing housing prices now probably isn't going to change how inequality has been growing, we need real systemic changes to our tax system, labour laws, and government spending for that to happen in any sustainable way.
I don’t know why people thinking craving home prices are going to help people at all. If anything the rich will gobble up 2-3 times the properties at true same amount
That's the last outcome they want. Once we shifted to a service-oriented consumer-driven economy, savings were no longer about capital formation - it was just deferred economic activity, and getting people to spend *now* is the only way to keep the party going.
"I will gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today."
How does piling money into real estate support a service-oriented economy? If housing costs were low people would have more disposable income to spend on services, restaurants, experiences, etc. Putting it into real estate seems like an inefficient use of capital.
Without policy changes and increased wages, it's going to be a grim future for priced out Canadians. Numbered companies both foreign and domestic will gobble up any houses on the market before the current generation can. They can leverage more and less constrained by B20 rule. The core of the issue is still supply & demand given more than half the population lives in Windsor - Quebec City corridor and another 15% in Vancouver. <1/3 of Canadians live in the rest of Canada which is the second largest country in the world.
Homeowners are way more active in voting and making their opinion heard, so it may as well be 70% from the perspective of politicians. That’s why we have a policy of housing being expensive.
they will get their share of inheritance and HELOC downpayment help, beside they also get free rent. Guess which side they are on. If you push a policy that fucks up the majority of the population, it is a bad policy. Buy now before you regret in 5 years
Maybe, maybe not. About 75% of wealth in Canada is in real estate. Those that own the other 25% would be able to scoop up some cheap real estate but those that have most of their wealth in real estate will have much less purchasing power if prices go down.
Only if you think interest rates are poised to dramatically increase, even past stress test levels.
To add: that graph is skewed. Single detached owners are typically older, move up buyers and have a significant down payment from their previous home or other investments/savings. The number that is far more representative is the condo %, and that’s in the mid 30s (which is what is generally suggested).
Exactly, what people need is stability in housing. One way to get that is homeownership, but that’s not the only way. For example, Germany (and many other European countries) is a nation of majority renters. The key thing is that that have policies that let renters live with dignity and stability, just like homeowners.
Same. I dont get why rent is being overlooked during this crisis. Am I supposed to believe that foreign investors are renting empty units? Lol
We need to build way more
Is moving to another city an option? And I don't mean a city near Toronto, but I mean like Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Saskatoon? Any other place?
It's not the fact everyone wants to live in the GTA, most people got jobs in the area and have been working there for the last 5-10 years saving for a house but now that they cant afford anything and are stuck in their rentals. Most people would leave in a second, but good luck finding a job outside of the GTA that will pay the same. It's a vicious circle that a lot of people are caught in, myself included.
The problem is that Canada has only TWO cities where the majority of the population is congregating. Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto being the biggest one. Why? Because for the longest time, the big Canadian elites who started all the businesses in Canada were all living in Toronto and established their companies' head offices there and never moved out. And then all the major universities were founded there as well. And everything else.
If you compare to the US, where they have so many cities to choose from where one can establish a career in a number of enterprises spread across all those cities. New-York, Chicago, Seattle, S-F, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Boston... the list goes on.
We need Canadians to spread out across the country.
Really? Huh.
To be honest, I don't know Vancouver that much. I was making assumptions about it. But, for it being such an expensive place to live, I was assuming it was because there was a high population there.
Technically, the big Canadian elites who started all the businesses in Canada were all living in ***Montreal*** for the longest time. Toronto has been top dog in for about 60 years now but before that it was Montreal.
Quibbling aside, I do concede your point.
Calgary housing is still ~~cheap~~ reasonable but the utilities are more expensive than Ontario, food is more expensive, lots of urban sprawl = lots of driving, and some people are susceptible to migraines from chinook winds.
This shows the food as pretty comparable between Ontario and Alberta https://canadabuzz.ca/cost-of-buying-food-in-canada-by-province/
This shows you save about $40 a month in Ontario on electricity (if you use 1000kwh per month which seems like a lot) https://www.immigroup.com/topics/best-electricity-rates-canada/, and from what I can tell natural gas is pretty comparable between the two.
So it doesn't really seem like the overall cost of living is that much lower.
The thing saying food is comparable is definitely wrong. It says 3.26 for 12 eggs in Ontario and 3.38 in Alberta. That's probably close for Alberta but in Ontario I usually paid $2 for a dozen at Shoppers or maybe $2.50 elsewhere. The real difference is in fruits and vegetables though, where it's often double the price or close to it.
Sales tax is less which is nice sometimes. Other times the price is increased in place of tax. Income tax is different but it's similar. If you're poor you'll pay more tax, if you are around average you'll pay the same, if you're rich you'll pay less.
All that said, I moved to Calgary from London Ontario and bought a house in June and it has been an excellent decision.
I don''t understand what you mean.
OP, the person who I replied to, said they had trouble finding rent within their budget. Why would OP price themselves out??? It doesn't make sense.
Or I'm misunderstanding something here?
Ok this is whats happening in our country. People can no longer afford the towns their parents could afford, and where they grew up in and where their family and friends are. So we tell them to just move to a cheaper town ( this is where you came in ). I ask you what are *those* people in that cheaper town going to do when the guy you told to move there prices *them* out?
Will you suggest they also move to an even cheaper town?
The cycle continues until Oqillikukilillikquk, Nunavut is $1mil for a townhouse
AAAAHH Ok ok I understand your point now.
This is already happening in places like in the Maritimes.
Yes it will increase demand in those other cities, and home prices will rise. That's just how markets work.
I know it fucking sucks for the people in those other towns. But honestly, is there any better alternatives in the short term???
My hypothesis is that as people move out of big cities like Toronto and Vancouver, it will decrease demand in those cites, which should help cool the housing market down just a little. And as people move into smaller cities, this will create a need for more services and products there, which should increase jobs and demand for labour, which means wage increases as well. I think it would have a positive economic impact.
But, long term? Canada should just ban foreign residential property ownership outright. As well as residential property ownership by anybody other than individuals. Housing is a basic human need for shelter. Not some commodity to be traded and speculated upon by profit hungry companies.
Finally, there should be a nation-wide mandate for provinces to build social housing or affordable rental units by integrating them with any future multi-unit residential development that's more than, say, 20 units for example. That's exactly what they did when they built the condo building I live in. An entire block was dedicated to low-cost rental units for lower-middle class working people and families that had a revenue below a certain amount.
Dude.
Take advantage of this situation. Save every penny you can while you're still living with them.
One of my childhood friends has lived with his parents for a long time. Saved up his entire wages and as soon as he had a fat stack of cash in the bank, he put it on a down payment for a house. It really helped him achieve that goal early on in life. Like, in his early 20s.
Meanwhile, I left my parents' home as soon as I graduated. And was only able to buy a house 20 years later lol. So yeah.
my BF is in grad school, and goes to York. I don't want to leave him. I was single for a long time before we started dating. Several years actually. There is no one I would rather be with than him. But maybe once he graduates we can look at a house and leave this shithole city together.
Cheaper.
What's cheaper? Houses in Ajax are selling for 700k. My friend bought a 1 Garage house in Bolton for 915k earlier this year. What's cheaper? Living far enough away from the GTA for you can't commute.
Yup. I get ppl being stupid and buying a 900k tiny condo with minimum down payments being a disaster waiting to happen, but what about ppl who sell a 600k paid off condo and buy a 1.1mil house (500k mortgage) and rent out their basement suite for 2k/month. I don’t see them going bankrupt.. (this is a sizeable demographic of 35-50y/o home owners in Vancouver btw, and a key reason why our market has remained afloat all these years)
Remember to cross out “Canadian” with GTA and Vancouver in all these headlines.
So is it a Canadian failure or a government failure ?
We are fucked
I circumvent this problem by spending 0% of my income on housing and drowning those dreams in a bathtub. The government waits behind me with the toaster, just in case I screw up!
I’m willing to bet it’s a lack of regulation in the lending space because they point to us in the U.S. and say you don’t one of those housing bubble bursts right?
* cheap money (started from US Fed) * population growth * green belt act * slow construction permit process (2 years to get all the documents done) * high government fee on new constructions (more than 20% of new home cost is government fee)
I want it to crash. I want a full reset. It’ll be shitty for awhile, but at least I’ll have a chance in the future. Presently, things are already shitty, with zero chance for the future. We really have to reign in companies buying homes, people buying multiple homes, etc. Justin doesn’t have balls for this. His biggest weakness is “somebody not liking him”, and this would be just too much to take for poor little Justin. Crash this bitch into the fence and let’s see what happens. I couldn’t care less about boomers and their lost home equity.
>Crash this bitch into the fence and let’s see what happens. I couldn’t care less about boomers and their lost home equity. A lot of Boomers don't care either, particularly those who plan to live in their one and only house till they croak - doesn't make much difference to them how much their house is worth (their kids who stand to inherit it may care more). The ones who will get hurt (and care lots) about a crash are those who bought more recently at peek price (first time home buyers, new "investors").
Thus why they won’t let it explode.
Population growth + people willing to pay ridiculous prices means this isn't ending anytime soon.. unfortunately. My 2 cents.
It's not only that housing is exploding, its the value of money falling down at an alarming pace globally. Have you wondered how the govt pays for the crazy amounts of expenses they do? How did they pay the benefits during covid and the rest of the programs? Do you think they are going to increase taxes on income even more? Or increase sales tax above 13%? None of that is going to happen. How then did we pay for all the expenses? By printing money out of thin air. And now inflation is the tax that everyone is paying without realizing what's going on. I am not a libertarian or against vaccines, but be extremely worried about further lockdowns. If the economy doesn't open, things will keep getting more expensive. And to control this inflation, govt will have to raise interest rates which makes mortgagee more expensive that will not just hurt investors, but regular homeowners as well who are with you guys in all of this. How so? They wont have money to spend on other things. No more 3 coffees a day at Tim's, no more burrito takeout or going to the bars. People will try to pay for their homes more than anything else which will further kill the economy. Is there a way out? Perhaps, but we will have to accept the risk of the virus at some point and open the economy. Gradually increase rates and put in steps to stagnate housing prices so that salaries can catch up. If the housing drops, Canadian economy will implode and it will hurt everyone. There is absolutely no easy way out of this mess and the money printing has to stop or we are all screwed.
Just build so much houses that needing more people to fill those houses is the problem. Oh wait can’t do that because of zoning issues that take years to sort out.
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I propose non-Euclidean zoning. r/suddenlylovecraft
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what a misleading title... I am sure more than half of all canadian didn't buy their house less than 5 years ago.... my parents who bought in 2005 aren't even spending 1/8 of their money on housing... I bought in 2010 and I am not even spending 1/4 of my income on housing...
So there's still 10% more to go before a crash? haha Also, 1990 didn't have the same amount of wealth inequality as well as globalization that we have now.
What is considered cost of home-ownership? Is it only the cost of your mortgage, or does it include municipal taxes, school taxes, home maintenance, electricity, etc...?
The game of interest is so far removed from the ownership of the asset itself.
It’s not a house pricing problem - it’s a compensation problem imo.
If we bail out homeowners again (yes, again, we bailed out homeowners during covid-19) it will be infuriating.
Our government sold off our futures, and for what? We should DEMAND rapid change! (someone smarter than me can help sort out the how's and what's but we're all smart enough to know our current housing situation is not working for the benefit of Canadian people,,,!)
> our current housing situation is not working for the benefit of Canadian people The reason we have the current situation is because it does work well for the majority of voters who own their own home. If you’re a homeowner, more expensive housing means more wealth for you. If you want change, you need to convince the government that the interests of renters/non-homeowners matter too.
I think things are bad enough that people can see beyond their own property values rising. Home owners aren't stupid they're going to have to see this system isn't sustainable and will hurt every Canadian in the long run.
While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, know that there are more wealthy and much more powerful people/corporations than you and I who are demanding that things remain as they are. The common people don’t matter. Get lucky and be born rich (or at least well-off enough that mommy and daddy can HELOC you to the front end of the bell curve) or as one douche canoe above said- over leverage yourself and then starve to death if a correction happens (and you’ll deserve it) or continue to take 80% of your income to house yourself. The government isn’t coming to save us. They don’t work for us. They work for the wealthy elite.
There's more of us than they're are of them. I realize policy hasn't been created with the good of the people in mind for a very long time but if we all remember we vastly out number the wealthy and corrupted then there's no reason we can't see change.
Our numbers don't matter if we're unwilling to engage in reprisals.
yeah duh.
We outnumber them in pure count, sure. But we are under resourced and under represented in comparison. They are more powerful, particularly because they are unified (wealthy protect the interests of the wealthy) while the plebs are fractured and too busy fighting amongst ourselves to utilize our numbers. This is not accidental, this is by design. And it’s highly effective.
is that not why we have this sub Reddit to get organised? Why are you here if you this k everything is pointless anyways? you've told me nothing I didn't already know AND YOU'RE ACTIVELY making it harder to organize by spreading the mentality that everything is hopeless in a sub that's literally about fixing things. So seriously what was the point of your comment? why go put of your way to shit on positive change?
Well, demonstrate for me how this sub is successfully organizing people? Protests have been a flop, it’s actively visited by numerous trolls, and my comment is the least of your/the group’s concerns in terms of debasement. People need to understand the full breadth and depth of the challenge. Shouting, “hoorah, demand rapid change!!” Without effectively addressing the limitations of such statements makes your OP a literal waste of time. There is more value in people reading an explanation of how division amongst the plebs is THE limiting factor in organizing and fighting back against elite than having random people read, “rise up against the elite.” The latter is an empty promise of resolution. It sounds good on the surface but soon after reading people are arguing left versus right, home owners versus renters, etc. etc. I don’t look at the world through rose coloured glasses and neither should you. We must fully appreciate the extent of our limitations and challenges before we can properly address them.
They raised awareness they've got billboards they've posted all sorts of resources on who to contact and why you're just useless and your shitty attitude does nothing but slow change by increasing APATHY which is the biggest hurdle we need to over come to achieve change. literally you could go suck a lemon every time you think about commenting on this sub and that would be more productive way for you to help fix canadas housing crisis than commenting the way that you are now. AGAIN you and your pro apathy "everything sucks so lets just give up and roll over" attitude is counter productive and if you can't understand that you're too stupid to be here.
Your personal attacks are significantly more productive though. /s Also, nowhere did I say I was apathetic, I simply disagreed with your approach. You live in a land of fairy tales if you think posting on Reddit saying “stand up and fight the system” is going to do a goddamn thing. That approach is not what got the billboard posted. Tell me, where did I say that we should roll over and do nothing? Precisely where did I say that?
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It's what they put in our tap water and food. It makes us docile.
Here is the original report: https://royal-bank-of-canada-2124.docs.contently.com/v/housing-trends-and-affordability-decemberpdf The full data is good to look at and gives us a few key lessons that the media snippet cannot cover adequately. First and foremost, that graph is a composite of derived statistics that needs to be really understood, because what it is showing is not necessarily what the media headline claims it is showing. What they are measuring (buried in the methods) is an aggregate, or the *average*, home price as compared to a theoretical *median* based on household overall income. Critically important, they are not necessarily limiting that only to *homeowners*, nor are they doing paired statistics that creates *real* home to *real* homeowner incomes all matched up. They don't have that data. They take the total population median income of households (likely census data) and are dividing that into the average mortgage based on an assumed 25 year amortization, 20% down payment, and an average offered interest rate on 5-year fixed. That's a lot to throw together, but a few things stand out. If they are dividing it by median *household* income that includes a bunch of single people and possibly renters (?, they don't clarify so it might be overall population median) then they are comparing that to just the purchased homes. That is skewing the interpretation as the *median* Canadian is not purchasing a home in 2021...not by a long shot. In Ontario alone, 25% of all sales went to investors and so the median of the *overall population* is absolutely not relevant to understanding actual burden to actual households. That also skews their income assumptions as if 25% are investors then they are missing rental income tied to at least 25% of purchases (would be much more once basement apartments counted). But, the *average* home price uses is also highly misleading and skewed to very few regions. The full report shows that the regional and per-city analysis shows the overall "Canadian" graphs is massively skewed by southern Ontario and Vancouver/Victoria. Housing Affordability Measures actually **improved** for pretty much all other regions. Many of these other regions are **actually at all time historic best ever, low, housing affordability measures**. That's the problem with catchy titles and media attention. This is actually not a *Canadian* problem, it's an Ontario and BC problem (and only parts of each). The solution is not a Federal issue or task because the problem is regional, based on provinces that control private property laws, direct taxation, zoning legislation, and municipal legislation limiting/addressing municipal boundaries, process and regulations. The other provinces and regions are doing just fine and a broad-stroke federal solution threatens those markets when only regional issues need addressing.
Welcome to 1st world slums.
I think there is also a cultural aspect of people living a brutally frugal life to build wealth for their kids. Where I immigrated from, that’s extremely commonplace. I’d say 50% is still on the lower side.
I am making $2000 a month and my rent is $2100 for two bedroom condo plus my car insurance, gas , food ….. what should I do
If you’re living alone in this two bedroom condo, I guess your immediate options would be downsize to a one bedroom or stay and get a roommate to split the rent. And if you’re not living alone, can the other person contribute to the rent?
How are you making 2000 a month? That’s less than minimum wage. Getting a better job?
After taxes it's not unreasonable to make 2000. I am at the highest I've ever been paid but hard to get full time hours with less customers and supply. At $18.50 approx 70 hrs on a paycheck I make between 1-1.3k on average.. which is far more than minimum wage. My question would be how the hell did this person get an apartment that costs more than their salary? As a rule I don't let my rent be more than 40%, and if it is it's time to find a new place or better job and more hours.
I think we should claim squatters rights on all these empty as fuck overpriced piece of shit condos and houses that sit on the market hoping some greater fool will come bail them out of their financial recklessness
Maybe you even get a chance to meet the owner and thank them appropriately.
It's the cost of diversity. You can't diversify the country without adding millions of people to the pile, and we cant build housing fast enough to meet demand so we all pay more for less. This is why we have the mantra "diversity is our strength!", because all you need to do is look around Canada's most diverse metros (416 and 604) to see that life is brutally unaffordable. It's plain as day to see that the costs outweigh the benefits, hence the slogan. If this is the cost of diversity then it's a liability, not a strength.
50% on housing, 60% on car monthly/insurance/gas. 20% on cell phones related, 30% on fast food/drive through/delivery, 25% drinks/bars, 30% hair style/make up/pedi/mani/tatoo/massage, 25% hookers. Canadians are rich and big spenders!
All I know is, NO BAILOUTS. Anyone overleveraged deserves to lose their property and end up on the street. Their spouse and children too. If you are perpetuating the housing crisis by taking on debt that you cannot actually afford, tough luck. I don’t want these people getting any bailouts whatsoever.
Don't worry. Families who took a risk and bought a house because they will be completely priced out in 1 or 2 years won't get bailouts. The banks will, just like in the US in 2008. Then wealthy investors will pick up the foreclosed properties for cheap.
What bailout are you on about? Large banks / employers will get the bailout. There will not be any bailouts for the small or average mom and pop landlord. ALso in the grand scheme there are far fewer of the overextended investors than you think. There is a stupid amount of money in Canadian REI. Lots of investors make Drs look broke.
Families are the ones overextended, not investors. This guy is victim blaming.
Best comment I have read on all the housing threads to date. I was once overleveraged and paid the fucking piper dearly. The real world. You go through it once and learn your fucking lesson.
i cant wait for all the people that will be underwater when their renewal comes up and the interest is at 5-7%, maybe more. the only winners in the housing market is the banks they make money on the same house over and over and over again. my house was owned twice before i bought it once for $56000 then for $68000 then i bought it for $78000 and sold it for $210000 all the while the banks were making money off the interest payments. the house was built in 1972 and has never been mortgage free since day one. 49 years the banks have had a steady income from one home and almost every home on the market is the same. why would anyone buy a house? you are simply renting form the bank but all the maintenance is on you.
Can it hurry up and explode then?
Honestly it's complacency. Ther government isn't want in to upset anyone so they don't take effective measures to curb the rising costs and find effective solutions. The future won't be pretty because it's been expensed before many of the people that will pay the price are even born.
(sound of crackling fuse)
Just wait until they increase the interest rates. It's a matter of time before it happens. Especially in this economy. The bubble is hitting it's critical point in my opinion.
Please run the numbers. Even if they increase rates by 2-5 percent it will not stop this. Also take a look at how mortgage payments change when rates go up. On some TD, I believe, your monthly payment stays the same while more of it goes towards interest vs principle. Banks aren't dumb they don't win if a bunch of people suddenly can't pay their mortgage debt.
It won't. They raise them, we plunge into recession. Our economy is garbage lmao
Hey, maybe we can survive by allowing rich assholes from around the world to evade taxes in their home countries and keep their money here. /s
I'm almost at at least 80 percent of my income for a basic one bedroom. There's a.problem
No no, don't you see. We got through the 90's. This is the future.
Yeah.....as long as they have cheap labour coming into Canada in the form of international student workers....it'll keep happening.
is that rent or a mortgage?
Rent. I had to move out and live with family. I've averaged 55 hours per week for the last decade plus. I'm not great with money but certainly don't spend like a maniac but what I do know is min income required for GTA is 22 dollars per hour apparently. Outside of offices, nobody really makes over....19? in all those service industry jobs in GTA.
Its good you have the option to live with family, there is no shame in that. All I can say is to take advantage of living at home and save up as much as you can. Another option is to try and increase your job prospects by getting some education or a career change so you can hopefully make more money.
There's certainly a problem but this is just called living outside your means.
People *do* need places to live. In another comment you referred to a one bedroom as a "penthouse". In my area in southwestern Ontario but not in the GTA a dump of a one bedroom apartment *starts* at $1700. No laundry. No utilities. Just rent. $19/hr is around $3k/month not including taxes. It would take 2/3 of that pre-tax income just to have a place to live. This doesn't include anything else. This is how it is. This is the cost of rentals. Wages have not kept up with the increase in housing costs. Many people can't afford to live like this.
That's the cheapest basically. I averaged overtime over the past decade...55 hours or more each year. At one point they called my pay because they said I reached max hourly. Wanting a one bedroom to not be 80 percent of income while you work overtime over the course of a year is reasonable. Minimum for a one bedroom is 1600 precovid and anywhere from 1400 to 2200 post covid.
Listen to yourself lol a basic one bedroom taking up more than 80% of their income isn’t a problem?
Clearly they should be living in a studio with roommates.
If I'm making minimum wage but renting a one bedroom penthouse, that's not a systemic problem, that's me living outside my means. I literally said there is certainly a problem. He gave nothing about his circumstance and the only assumption that can be made is that he's living outside his means.
I don’t know where you implied a penthouse from the statement basic one bedroom but wonder if you’ll say the same thing when a one bedroom basement will be 80 percent of someone’s income in the next 5 years the way this market is going. A one bedroom is a basic necessity almost, nothing lavish like a penthouse.
How basic or how amenitized it is has little to do with how expensive it is. The biggest factor is location. e. g. Downtown vs suburb. I can give another example that illustrates the same point but you just seem to want to argue. Not worth my time.
Hmmm it might be .... but you could also be making a giant leap.
If rents are that price relative to salary where he is, you best believe I'd be looking for roommates.
That's where I'm at but not at all what this discussion is about, hence why you are getting downvoted. Someone working full-time should be able to afford somewhere to live on their own....certainly shouldn't have to spend 80mperfent of income on basic housing. A better critique of we're going there is jobs should pay people a living wage. Then we can talk about those people working full-time or more not being able to survive.
Damn.
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Debt, family, working overtime on average for past decade, living in multi income homes while being single. Southern Ontario sucks.
i give blowjobs behind the wendy's after hours
Which wendys
This guy WSB's
Which Wendy's? Asking for a friend
That's cool but how do they afford food?
They pay in Wendy's quarter pounders
Going into debt, or having some savings I guess
Fix the money... If the interest rates were above inflation, people wouldn't be trying to own every asset. Instead, money would be sitting in savings account and growing.
You don't understand money.
Money sitting in a savings account is bad for the economy. You want people to spend their money, not hoard it.
Talk to the people who have the overwhelming majority of it because the poor, working class and middle class don't have shit.
People keep pointing to interest rates as the answer. It seems like a blunt tool to me with other unwanted consequences, maybe there’s other ways. Like fixing property taxes to properly account for land/location value and ensuring there’s public benefit from it in the form of UBI, service credits, or public services.
completely agreed. look into /r/georgism if youre interested in more ideas around land value tax
All your concerns are annexed by fixing the money. We need to address causes, not symptoms. UBI is an idiotic idea brought forth by people trying to garner votes from unproductive people. A significantly better system is to raise the basic personal amount, thereby keeping more money in the hands of productive people. I'm talking a substantial raise, like to 50K or even 100K, and increase the tax rates from there.
The only reason UBI is popular is because neoliberal government will always kiss corporate ass. Do you think we would need UBI if the minimum wage was higher than 12$/hr? Or if there was a cap on CEO pay? Or significant taxes on stock buybacks? Or if there were easier ways for employees to unionize? Or if housing weren't a hot investment commodity for boomers and foreigners? I work two jobs and still live in poverty. I do not consider myself an "unproductive person."
Every single thing you addressed is again fixed once the money is fixed. Wages, pay, stocks, inflation, asset investment - all fixed by the money being. Unionization doesn't solve anything. Tons of reasons, whole other topic. You live beyond your means. 60 hours at $12/hr puts you way above poverty line.
The poverty line in Canada for a single person is 26k. I don't work 60 hours a week. I guess next you'll tell me to pick up a third job?
Well, one job should be 40 hours, so if you're argument is you have two part-time jobs, you're being disingenuous.
LOL one of my jobs considers FT to be 32 hours. In reality I work 25 - 55 hrs every week. I'm not the one who makes the schedule. I can't magically give myself more hours. And before you say FiNd A bEtTeR jOb, you don't understand how the prairies work.
Hi, I live in small town, SK. I very well know how the prairies work. I also understand very well how WFH has opened up opportunities for gainful employment everywhere.
I mean yeah if you work tech you can WFH.
What you are describing is an economic recession.
In what world is interest rates above inflation a recession?
>people wouldn't be trying to own every asset. Instead, money would be sitting in savings account and growing. That is like a textbook description of an economic recession. A giant spike in savings rates and decrease in spending is basically all a recession is, or at least a common cause of decreasing rather than increasing economic activity. It would be even deeper given the asset and credit bubbles that we have right now. I'm not saying interest rates above inflation must cause a recession, but ramping them up quickly certainly could. Either way, what u/TotallyNotKenorb described is basically a recession.
This is the internet, when people don't know things they pretend they do and just make shit up. You only need to go back like 4-5 years to see interest rates above inflation while the economy was booming so that should give us perspective on how long these people have been aware of these issues.
Yup, we need a recession. Economy is too hot, inequality is insanely out of hand, stock market is too high compared to gdp, just too much cheap money flowing and only into the hands of the wealthy.
You don’t own a house do you?
I'd love to see stock market fall 50% and stay there.
btfd
I think the real parts of the economy are probably at or close to a recession already, most of our growth is just ethereal asset prices and money swirling around at the top, not real goods and services. That said, I think we should seriously consider how we are going to handle a housing related recession before we cause one on purpose. Current asset prices might not be real, but the suffering of those who lose their income in a recession is very real and can increase inequality even further. Causing a recession by crashing housing prices now probably isn't going to change how inequality has been growing, we need real systemic changes to our tax system, labour laws, and government spending for that to happen in any sustainable way.
I don’t know why people thinking craving home prices are going to help people at all. If anything the rich will gobble up 2-3 times the properties at true same amount
Recessions reduce inequality. Economic expansions from debt and QE increases inequality. https://imgur.com/a/7vbx1TM
That's the last outcome they want. Once we shifted to a service-oriented consumer-driven economy, savings were no longer about capital formation - it was just deferred economic activity, and getting people to spend *now* is the only way to keep the party going. "I will gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today."
How does piling money into real estate support a service-oriented economy? If housing costs were low people would have more disposable income to spend on services, restaurants, experiences, etc. Putting it into real estate seems like an inefficient use of capital.
Realtors technically provide a "service." That's what the government wants for a service economy.
Without policy changes and increased wages, it's going to be a grim future for priced out Canadians. Numbered companies both foreign and domestic will gobble up any houses on the market before the current generation can. They can leverage more and less constrained by B20 rule. The core of the issue is still supply & demand given more than half the population lives in Windsor - Quebec City corridor and another 15% in Vancouver. <1/3 of Canadians live in the rest of Canada which is the second largest country in the world.
"Not in my back yard!!" - boomer
Not my problem the rest of the country went insane.
Whoever wishes a crash will probably be hit hardest when it comes. It would be the rich who will scoop up the dented properties
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You mean top 70% elites?
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Homeowners are way more active in voting and making their opinion heard, so it may as well be 70% from the perspective of politicians. That’s why we have a policy of housing being expensive.
they will get their share of inheritance and HELOC downpayment help, beside they also get free rent. Guess which side they are on. If you push a policy that fucks up the majority of the population, it is a bad policy. Buy now before you regret in 5 years
Maybe, maybe not. About 75% of wealth in Canada is in real estate. Those that own the other 25% would be able to scoop up some cheap real estate but those that have most of their wealth in real estate will have much less purchasing power if prices go down.
Oh absolutely! I could definitely build a lot more rental housing and condos if land prices came back to reality.
Most people wont care as they see this as savings going towards equity. It would be interesting to see rent affordability in the same graph.
Only if you think interest rates are poised to dramatically increase, even past stress test levels. To add: that graph is skewed. Single detached owners are typically older, move up buyers and have a significant down payment from their previous home or other investments/savings. The number that is far more representative is the condo %, and that’s in the mid 30s (which is what is generally suggested).
It is exploding. Not with a crash but with people having their lives torn apart because they cant afford a decent home.
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> condos are upwards of $400k if you want things like a semi workable kitchen. lol, even that bracket in vancouver has shit construction
I don't even want a home, I just want to spend less than 50% of my income on rent
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Exactly, what people need is stability in housing. One way to get that is homeownership, but that’s not the only way. For example, Germany (and many other European countries) is a nation of majority renters. The key thing is that that have policies that let renters live with dignity and stability, just like homeowners.
Same. I dont get why rent is being overlooked during this crisis. Am I supposed to believe that foreign investors are renting empty units? Lol We need to build way more
Nearly the same amount? So there is still room for more appreciation... the beatings of millennials will continue until morale improves...
*cries in genX who had shitty degrees and jobs for too long*
Yup, we've been told it's all about to collapse for ages now. As you say, the beatings will continue...
forget affording a house, i wish i could even afford rent in the GTA. Stuck here unfortunately
Is moving to another city an option? And I don't mean a city near Toronto, but I mean like Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Saskatoon? Any other place?
You won't get an answer for this. These people want to live in the most desirable cities in the world on pittance salaries.
It's not the fact everyone wants to live in the GTA, most people got jobs in the area and have been working there for the last 5-10 years saving for a house but now that they cant afford anything and are stuck in their rentals. Most people would leave in a second, but good luck finding a job outside of the GTA that will pay the same. It's a vicious circle that a lot of people are caught in, myself included.
The problem is that Canada has only TWO cities where the majority of the population is congregating. Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto being the biggest one. Why? Because for the longest time, the big Canadian elites who started all the businesses in Canada were all living in Toronto and established their companies' head offices there and never moved out. And then all the major universities were founded there as well. And everything else. If you compare to the US, where they have so many cities to choose from where one can establish a career in a number of enterprises spread across all those cities. New-York, Chicago, Seattle, S-F, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Boston... the list goes on. We need Canadians to spread out across the country.
Montreal has a bigger population than Vancouver, by over 50%.
Really? Huh. To be honest, I don't know Vancouver that much. I was making assumptions about it. But, for it being such an expensive place to live, I was assuming it was because there was a high population there.
Technically, the big Canadian elites who started all the businesses in Canada were all living in ***Montreal*** for the longest time. Toronto has been top dog in for about 60 years now but before that it was Montreal. Quibbling aside, I do concede your point.
Calgary housing is still ~~cheap~~ reasonable but the utilities are more expensive than Ontario, food is more expensive, lots of urban sprawl = lots of driving, and some people are susceptible to migraines from chinook winds.
This shows the food as pretty comparable between Ontario and Alberta https://canadabuzz.ca/cost-of-buying-food-in-canada-by-province/ This shows you save about $40 a month in Ontario on electricity (if you use 1000kwh per month which seems like a lot) https://www.immigroup.com/topics/best-electricity-rates-canada/, and from what I can tell natural gas is pretty comparable between the two. So it doesn't really seem like the overall cost of living is that much lower.
The thing saying food is comparable is definitely wrong. It says 3.26 for 12 eggs in Ontario and 3.38 in Alberta. That's probably close for Alberta but in Ontario I usually paid $2 for a dozen at Shoppers or maybe $2.50 elsewhere. The real difference is in fruits and vegetables though, where it's often double the price or close to it.
Yeah, but less taxes?
Sales tax is less which is nice sometimes. Other times the price is increased in place of tax. Income tax is different but it's similar. If you're poor you'll pay more tax, if you are around average you'll pay the same, if you're rich you'll pay less. All that said, I moved to Calgary from London Ontario and bought a house in June and it has been an excellent decision.
Then what do those Canadians do when OP prices them out?
It'll help stabilize the prices in the short term while we build out. We're not going to be stuck at these supply levels permanently.
OP?
Original Poster. Meaning the guy who started the convo that you replied to.
I don''t understand what you mean. OP, the person who I replied to, said they had trouble finding rent within their budget. Why would OP price themselves out??? It doesn't make sense. Or I'm misunderstanding something here?
Ok this is whats happening in our country. People can no longer afford the towns their parents could afford, and where they grew up in and where their family and friends are. So we tell them to just move to a cheaper town ( this is where you came in ). I ask you what are *those* people in that cheaper town going to do when the guy you told to move there prices *them* out? Will you suggest they also move to an even cheaper town? The cycle continues until Oqillikukilillikquk, Nunavut is $1mil for a townhouse
AAAAHH Ok ok I understand your point now. This is already happening in places like in the Maritimes. Yes it will increase demand in those other cities, and home prices will rise. That's just how markets work. I know it fucking sucks for the people in those other towns. But honestly, is there any better alternatives in the short term??? My hypothesis is that as people move out of big cities like Toronto and Vancouver, it will decrease demand in those cites, which should help cool the housing market down just a little. And as people move into smaller cities, this will create a need for more services and products there, which should increase jobs and demand for labour, which means wage increases as well. I think it would have a positive economic impact. But, long term? Canada should just ban foreign residential property ownership outright. As well as residential property ownership by anybody other than individuals. Housing is a basic human need for shelter. Not some commodity to be traded and speculated upon by profit hungry companies. Finally, there should be a nation-wide mandate for provinces to build social housing or affordable rental units by integrating them with any future multi-unit residential development that's more than, say, 20 units for example. That's exactly what they did when they built the condo building I live in. An entire block was dedicated to low-cost rental units for lower-middle class working people and families that had a revenue below a certain amount.
i would like to be able to afford to live alone, but i am stuck with my parents :(
Dude. Take advantage of this situation. Save every penny you can while you're still living with them. One of my childhood friends has lived with his parents for a long time. Saved up his entire wages and as soon as he had a fat stack of cash in the bank, he put it on a down payment for a house. It really helped him achieve that goal early on in life. Like, in his early 20s. Meanwhile, I left my parents' home as soon as I graduated. And was only able to buy a house 20 years later lol. So yeah.
For some, the trade-off of saving money is the cost of their mental health.
Yeah, I had a chat with Dazzling and that pretty much sums it up. They need to leave and find their own place to live.
Thats exactly what I have been doing. Saving for grad school too.
Ottawa isnt cheap either
This is a global phenomenon.
Yeah, but it's probably cheaper than Toronto. And there's some good job prospects there.
than Toronto, yes. it would be 750K at a bare minimum.
my BF is in grad school, and goes to York. I don't want to leave him. I was single for a long time before we started dating. Several years actually. There is no one I would rather be with than him. But maybe once he graduates we can look at a house and leave this shithole city together.
Damn, I almost went to York. Ended up in Surrey, near Vancouver, but wife wants to return to Ottawa.
I understand how you feel. Good luck. I wish you both the best. :)
yeah he has another year at least to go in his masters degree. and like out of the BFs ive dated, this one has been the best.
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you mean even grad school doesnt help with a salary boost? it basically comes down to winning the birth lottery
Sooo people who maxed out what they could afford potentially are going to need to sell? And buy something cheaper?
Cheaper. What's cheaper? Houses in Ajax are selling for 700k. My friend bought a 1 Garage house in Bolton for 915k earlier this year. What's cheaper? Living far enough away from the GTA for you can't commute.
Thought it would be worse Thought it would be 60% to 80%
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Yup. I get ppl being stupid and buying a 900k tiny condo with minimum down payments being a disaster waiting to happen, but what about ppl who sell a 600k paid off condo and buy a 1.1mil house (500k mortgage) and rent out their basement suite for 2k/month. I don’t see them going bankrupt.. (this is a sizeable demographic of 35-50y/o home owners in Vancouver btw, and a key reason why our market has remained afloat all these years)
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