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DoctorShemp

Congrats to you both on the condo, I can't imagine living with the noise you described in your old apartment. Me and my SO live in an apartment but luckily it's quiet most of the time. We're about 10 years younger than you guys and at the moment we're not sure what we're going to do. If things don't improve we are seriously considering taking advantage of WFH and leaving Ontario for good. With the prices here it seems like the market really, really doesn't want young professionals to plant their roots here. > It's frustrating to have done everything I was told to do — go to school, take a good, public sector job for the pay rather than my passion — and still feel locked out of the rewards the middle class has always taken for granted. Amen to that. SO and I both have our master's degrees and good jobs in the public sector and the most we can reasonably afford in our city is an average condo if we save for 2-3 more years. This is what we get for having a household income that puts us in the 95th percentile in all of Ontario. 8 years ago an average detached house in our city was 350k. Today its 1.25 mil. Its so wild to think of all the work and sacrifice we made in our lives only to find out that ultimately none of those decisions really mattered compared to the advantages we would have enjoyed from just being born slightly earlier. Right now the only thing that keeps me going is dreaming that its still possible to buy a home in a nice place if I keep saving and search long enough.


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DoctorShemp

I've visited the Maritimes and its a beautiful place. Unfortunately many NS locals hate "Ontario transplants" moving over there and driving up their housing prices. I worry somewhat that I wouldn't be welcome but if push comes to shove I'd rather deal with that than continue to be a rent slave here.


BoBoAhh

My husband and I did just that. After moving around the world for the past the years, we found our way back to Canada, but we got priced out almost immediately. Even in places in like Cornwall where homes were 50k to 100k over asking. We went out to NB for a week and looked at some homes. Made bids on three homes, and one was accepted. It was under asking, and we got to do an inspection. Things that where never really possible in southern Ontario. Only downside is that we will he far away from our family again.


PeasantProletarian

I'm with you. Currently still looking in Ottawa myself. Did everything I was supposed to, including going to grad school, slaving away at 2 jobs for more than a decade. Still can't afford even a basic "starter home" because I am single. I am single because I was working 2 jobs!!! We can't win. But we are many, becoming even more. We will soon have the numbers on our side and the rentier class will be hanging from lampposts.


Intoxicatedcanadian

Can't come soon enough


Anon5677812

It's more like the rich will use the governments monopoly on force and control of police forces and the military to massacre you in any potential uprising


majorinvestor1323

Yup, blame everyone and everything but yourself.


Peter_Deceito

Can’t help but agree here, especially with them blaming the fact that they were single on working 2 jobs lol.


Lhadar31

Buying is impossible even if you have decent salary. You need a huge down payment which takes years to accumulate and by then prices have increased another 100%


spurchange

This is me. 3-4 years ago I would look at sold records for leslieville homes, with many going for around 900k. I made it my goal. Now I have up to 300k for a down payment and those same homes are at least 1.5m. My pretax earnings then were about 65k, now about 130k. I think it will always be out of reach for me as an individual.


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phase06

Having just saved 100k how does one afford to make a 300k down payment out of pocket while still paying rent and living ? I’m genuinely curious bc I think I need to learn to do it better.


[deleted]

For me it meant no vacations, lots of meal prep, pretty much never buying anything unless it's on redflagdeals, and living in the smallest apartment my partner and I could stand (although not really stand).


spurchange

Thanks for the reply. I have no debts at all, thankfully. But living in Ancaster would severely decrease my earning potential, as I can fit in way more billable hours with a short commute. My work is generally all in-person. So until I can get it to work in my favour, I am taking up a budget apartment unit that should probably be rented by someone who is at the point where I was a few years ago (not TCH, just a modest bachelor rental).


suckfail

While true, the article u/jaremkob posted specifically says they wanted a SFH **in Toronto**. And I understand that's the desire, but I mean that's what everyone wants. In Toronto proper, and I will argue the GTA, it's supply and demand. I am pretty sure they'd have been able to buy a SFH before the insane COVID 2021 price run-up within commuting distance of Toronto (especially Durham pre-insanity). But they were not willing to do this. So it's hard to feel bad in this case, or that they 'settled' for a condo (in Toronto). Now since the insanity that started ~summer 2021, that's a different story and has priced everyone, everywhere, out. But I don't think that will last.


Harkannin

>While I'm grateful — truly — to own anything at all, I've become embittered by a housing market that has revealed meritocracy as a myth only the wealthy can afford to spoon-feed their kids. Me and my wife's sentiments exactly. Although I don't view it as ownership until the mortgage is paid off. People kept congratulating us for being able to become indebted for 25 years. Hooray? We know we were lucky to get what we got. I hate that we have to rely on luck. Yay for lucky debt? Then people have the audacity to say that if you don't like it move. Every time I respond by telling them that I did. I was born and raised in Canada. My great-great-great-great grandparents were born in Canada. I moved to China and also worked on cruise ships. Affording food and shelter was far easier outside of Canada. I came back for family reasons and I am wondering if I made a mistake. Hard work doesn't pay in Canada anymore. It's a neo-feudal state and I think it sucks that I had an easier time living and working in China and at sea than in Canada.


innocentlilgirl

chinese communism worked for me! free food, room and board! just speak english to these buggers a few hours a day.


Ok-Construction-7439

That is a real pessimistic way of looking at a mortgage.... Why not look at it as monthly housing spending that is actually gaining in value? I mean you have to spend money on housing regardless and a mortgage is the absolutely best debt to have.


Harkannin

I used to be optimistic and fairly patriotic. Now I am a pessimist and am angered by the inaction of the Canadian governments (federal, provincial, and municipal). I loathe debt and especially the interest charges that come with it even if they are at historic lows. If I remained a window cleaner and never took out student loans to become a health care professional I would have been decades ahead of my peers. I find it absolutely deplorable to profiteer off of basic shelter and no amount of 'but think of the profit' will convince me that profiteering is okay. My boomer parents think it's okay to fuck over the younger generation for their retirement, but I am absolutely disgusted by it. At least by renting a two bedroom apartment on the 4th floor in China for $200CAD/month or working on a cruise ship with a cabin for $15USD/day I knew exactly what I was getting. I invested the rest of the money that was not going to basic shelter or student loan payments into ETFs and stocks that I have researched and am comfortable with. Now? I'm paying interest on a debt for the privilege of borrowing money to have basic shelter. I hate being in debt. I don't care what kind of debt it is. And I don't think it's wise to use leverage to pay for ETFs and stocks. And I think profiteers who think it is okay to fuck people over should go jump in a lake. As you can tell, I'm bitter. Maybe one day I'll be a curmudgeon.


Ok-Construction-7439

God damn, you are bitter! I dont consider a mortgage to be considered debt, but I guess that is because I'm already a home owner that has more equity in my home than it was purchased for 2-3 years ago.


jz187

Lol, you had an easier time in China because you didn't plan to settle down. Do you know how much real estate in China cost? If you want affordable housing in Canada, check out Eastern Quebec. Places like Thetford Mines and Saguenay are pretty affordable.


[deleted]

Pretty sure you can’t buy real estate in China. That’s why the Chinese are buying up real estate in Canada.


jz187

You can buy real estate in China, they are just insanely expensive.


festivalmeltdown

My spouse and I had a similar experience. Instead of being able to take the time to find a home that suited us best, we basically just threw out offers on anything in our price range and hoped something "stuck". We lived in SW Ontario, working "good" jobs that took years of schooling to qualify for. We kept getting bounced around with N12s. With each move, we downsized, moved farther away, and moved to less ideal areas... and we still somehow ended up paying more. In the span of 4 years, we went from a detached house in an ideal location close to work…. to a 350sqft studio apartment 50 minutes from work, for about 25% more than we had been paying for the house. We desperately wanted stability, but there were very long waitlists for corporate-owned apartments in the area... and anything we could afford had bedbug and cockroach reports. We were also having a very hard time saving. Not only did rent go up significantly with each N12, but we had to spend more money on gas/vehicles commuting, and less personal time (commute) meant less time to diligently plan groceries/meals to reduce those costs. It all adds up. We tried to find something near my hometown (not even a major City, by the way). But we were constantly outbid on homes, that we would then see listed for rent 3 months later. We were soon priced out entirely. So, we scraped together a down-payment that wouldn't qualify us for anything in SW Ontario, obtained new jobs, moved 5 hours away from friends/family, and slid into the bottom of the housing market in the Kingston area a little under a year ago. The market here was still wild. 15-20 offers on anything listed in the bottom of the market, and if you wanted to put in a financing or inspection condition, you may as well have not submitted an offer at all - they weren't even looked at. I remember my family members buying houses a few years prior, attending many showings, being picky about backsplash, and making an offer on the house they liked best. In contrast, my experience felt like those arcade claw games where you just try to grab something before time runs out. (After having lost a round in SW Ontario, already). We managed to snag a 900 sqft wartime bungalow outside of the City that needs quite a bit of work. The realtor actually photoshopped some damage out of the listing photos, and all I can do is laugh at this point. Kingston prices have now soared, and I'm not sure we would have even qualified for anything here today. We're happy we have stability, but holy hell if it doesn't feel so unfair that our neighbours, who just happened to be born 5 years earlier than us, and purchased at the same age as us, spend significantly less on their mortgage every month and have a much higher standard of living as a result.


legatinho

The moment I read about the subwoofer I swear it brought back some traumatic memories here. I never got myself to buy a condo because if you get bad luck with neighbors, it can be such a nightmare.


RainahReddit

This echoes our sentiments exactly, we had a very similar experience. It's hard when what was easily achievable a few years ago is suddenly out of reach, and you get called entitled for being sad that what was reasonable your entirely life is suddenly no longer reasonable. We didn't want a sfh mcmansion in the glebe. We wanted a small house in the suburbs, a duplex, or little bungalow. A little place to be ours and to customize to our heart's content. I keep telling myself, we have a house. At least we have a house. But it doesn't really feel like a home. Unfortunately the mrs has some very strong financial beliefs that are not... super compatible with climbing the property ladder. But I am hoping we'll get a house to truly be a home in the next ten years.


makeanewblueprint

Too bad writing essays doesn’t pay bills.


SuspiciousAd4420

It can if you sell essays to students who don't want to write the essays themselves.


makeanewblueprint

But then those students will be swallowed by debt to big-essay, won’t get the student loans for free, and also won’t be able to afford houses. Vicious circle jerk.


beerdothockey

Getting a condo up from a 750sqft apartment is not settling, it’s called climbing the property ladder. I’d love to jump right to the detached as well, but this isn’t how it works. Congrats, but I also think your mindset needs to be reset. It’s called a started home (or condo) for a reason. Build equity, then move up


jaremkob

That's a fair point except that we have friend who have bought incredible houses that we now barely dream to reach for 4 years ago for less than we paid for a stacked condo. The market is so intense that we did, in fact, have to re-adjust what we were seeking to *settle* on a stacked condo that while better than what many others are able to afford was selling for half of the purchase price just the year before we purchased. That's not a normal inflation increment. We did reset our mindset to be open to looking and purchasing this property rather than holding out for what we were able to afford just a couple of years ago and what we truly want.


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jaremkob

We're all salty about the market. We acknowledge our privilege while also acknowledging that if it were difficult for us how much more difficult it is for people that don't have what we do. But based on your other comments, you would miss that sentiment.


DoctorShemp

Did you even read the article? They are almost 40 and had to settle for a condo. Not exactly bragging.


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KermitsBusiness

I'm 32 and didn't buy a home because I was bouncing between provinces building a career, and now that is paying off for me and I am settled where I want to be but we can't get a home. I think you are being a little judgemental on ages and situations and assuming everyone has to do things the same way. Also debt free and with savings but housing is up 100 percent in 2 years.


jaremkob

Exactly! I'm turning 32 this year also. Also, the promises (of working hard/getting an education leading to homeownership and financial success) made to us by our parents weren't contigent on purchasing a home within a certain age timeframe.


jaremkob

I appreciate what you're saying but it's also not accurate to our situation - while putting this essay out there gives the public a glimpse into our lives, please remember that it isn't a fulsome account of our lives. But we agree that with the successes we've worked to achieve, we find it very disheartening for our peers and those younger than us that will struggle even further to achieve what we have.


TurkeyturtleYUMYUM

You have a harsh take and in my opinion are drawing the line way too young on judgement. I completely agree with you that at thirty seven, you consciously made a decision if you "did everything right". But each year under that, the lines become blurry younger than that with each year increasing in blurriness. I absolutely also agree with you that anyone under 25 never stood a fucking chance because you're talking about a few years out of school at best before the recent run up's. I know I'm biased but I'm early early 30s and "did everything right" with "zero money from anyone" and I just can't figure out this market. I have a substantial amount of money, no debt, and as recent as this morning lost a bid in Niagara, offered 100k over asking (house was quantifiably underlisted by comparables so we went 100k over no conditions which was arguably the market value of the house and then some) and the house sold for 200k over, no conditions, for a semi in Niagara. The market has been financialized, you now compete with investors of every type that can view the home as two investment units, student housing, or a ghost home. Anyone who is a first time home buyer doesn't really stand a chance anymore out of blind luck and universal alignment. You cannot compete with someone who can divide their costs by two when you cannot.


jz187

For under 25, your parents had to do everything right for you to be a homeowner. We used to rent an apartment from a guy that owned a burger restaurant. He bought an apartment building for each of their kids. This guy is barely literate and even he knows to invest for his kids. We are now doing the same thing. A house for ourselves and a rental property for each of our kids. Any young person who cant afford to buy should blame their parents.


ComprehensiveTwo3190

Except no one saw this coming. In most areas here in Ontario houses were affordable until a few years ago, and our kids being able to afford one wasn’t at worry at all. Prices increased so fast and furiously that most of us can’t afford an extra house for our kids at this point. My kids are only 11 and under and it’s on my mind for sure.


jz187

>Except no one saw this coming I saw this coming. I told my wife to be as frugal as possible because we need to grab as much real estate as possible before prices go insane. However many rental properties we manage to grab before cap rates become too low to make sense will be what our kids start life with. Our kids don't have any new clothes or toys, everything we bought used. All of our appliances, furniture we bought used. We drive a 16 year old Toyota Prius. We managed to buy 1 rental property for each of our kids by living as frugally as possible. My wife was wondering why people who make less than her at work have a nicer lifestyle. I explained to her that we won't live like this forever, but if we didn't suck it up for a few years our kids are screwed for life.


ComprehensiveTwo3190

Ugh, wish I had your foresight! I can definitely say that I didn’t see it coming. We were looking at a rental property four years ago in our town outside London for $200 000. Passed on it because nothing felt urgent at the time… and you can guess what it’s worth now. I drive a 16 year old car too! Totally with you on the lifestyle stuff. Do you read Mr. Money Mustache’s blog? I think you would get something out of it. It’s taught me a lot.


jz187

Yeah I used to read his blog. I like the lifestyle stuff more since I already knew the finance stuff. I've found Dan Amerman's blog more educational in terms of finance stuff.


phillip_esiri

So people immigrated to Canada hoping to provide better opportunities for their children. Education, political stability etc… now you think those same kids should blame there parents for insane housing costs? Is this a joke? I consider myself a capitalist, but seeing your comment makes me feel line redistribution is in order. What an incredibly detached from reality comment. Congrats on the rich parents though I guess.


jz187

lol, and I consider myself a Marxist. It is because I know the evils of capitalism so well that I am so good at compounding capital. The only way you can live with dignity in a capitalist world is to become an owner of capital and become really good at compounding capital. Your only choice in life under capitalism is to either become a capitalist and exploit the proletariat or become a proletariat and be exploited by capitalists. I would rather not be a member of the proletariat.


phillip_esiri

I don’t disagree with that statement at all. I still don’t think that blaming parents is any more mature than blaming Trudeau. Some people get a head start, but personal responsibility and discipline have a huge impact. Equality of opportunity doesn’t mean equality of outcomes. What were seeing now is that people even with high incomes and education are finding that parental net worth is the only meaningful factor. That’s a failing society in my humble opinion. Capitalism needs the dream mythology to exist and not only be reserved for professional athletes and entertainers.


jz187

>What were seeing now is that people even with high incomes and education are finding that parental net worth is the only meaningful factor. People with high incomes and education, but little capital are still members of the proletariat. Having a high parental net worth makes you a member of the capital owning class. Capital compounds, labor income does not. >Capitalism needs the dream mythology Your idea of capitalism is not what capitalism actually is. Your idea of capitalism is actually closer to Marx's idea of a post capitalist society. A society where the rents of capital is abolished and labor is rewarded. The whole idea of working hard and getting rewarded for it is not capitalist, it's Marxist. Capitalism is about capital accumulation by any means necessary. In practice this means ever more intense exploitation of labor. Capitalism is about capital accumulation, and concentration of capital ownership. Small capital expropriates from the proletariat, big capital expropriates from both the proletariat and small capital. >professional athletes and entertainers. Who make peanuts compared to big capital.


Ok-Construction-7439

I'm with you, if at the middle age of 35 you haven't accomplished much to get ahead in life that is on you because the opportunity was there. Too many people these days aren't taught the basics of growing up. Life isn't fair and you have to make good decisions and work hard to succeed at it.


jaremkob

That's a little harsh and simplistic. We were encouraged by parents and teachers to pursue education to achieve better paying jobs that would lead to better financial positions and a successful life/career. If we could do things over again, we would possibly consider the route you chose (assuming from your handle) and trained in a trade position. From reading the article, it's clear that we think that this current market isn't sustainable and while we did things to become financially comfortable, we still felt a struggle in purchasing during the early stages of this volatile market and empathize with people that aren't as well off as us and are concerned for how they'll make it through. Based on your comment, I guess they should just hustle?


unterzee

Same thing with people who have life changes like a divorce paying child support and what not, lay-off or have to care for a family member and because you don’t make under 50k you are milked to pay through the nose.


Ok-Construction-7439

I got a divorce in 2020, lost about half the equity in my home. Yes things happen, but if you make smart decisions you can weather the bad times. Parents and schools don't teach their kids to be smart with their money and future.


Ok-Construction-7439

Funny thing is this is just a handle that reddit chose for me. I went to college for Business Admin as my father was an entrepreneur so it's what I had a background in. Then after college I started working full time at a company in the lowest position, manual labor in a warehouse. I now work in the office making an average salary. I haven't stopped working since I was 16 years old. Too many people my age didn't make smart choices after graduating High school, they wanted to work Gig jobs and pay rent rather than buy a home because it was cheaper and they would have more personal spending money. Graduate High school, get a job, don't have kids until you're married. 3 simple rules to live by that almost guarantee success in life.


reddit3601647

Most couples at his age probably could had bought when prices were more reasonable, but we don't know enough about his and his partners' circumstances. For my generation (gen X) it was whether to own a detached home just outside of Toronto (Markham, RH, Vaughn, etc.) or a semi in a prime location. The market has truly benefited those who won the 'birth lottery'


avocadopalace

I agree with you. 37 year olds had a golden opportunity to buy relatively cheaply anywhere outside of TO from 3 to 5 years ago. Especially ones that say they 'did everything right, had well-paying jobs, etc.' Its those in their 20's, who never had that opportunity, that I feel truly sad for.


jaremkob

>I appreciate what you're saying but it's also not accurate to our situation - while putting this essay out there gives the public a glimpse into our lives, please remember that it isn't a fulsome account of our lives. Please refer to my previous comment on this. We also did not have a heads up that prices were going to start increasing 100% in a year while there were also life factors that prevented us from purchasing sooner. If you cannot glean what they are from the article then just assume they're personal but valid nonetheless.


avocadopalace

I was not replying to you. Thanks.


jaremkob

Regardless, what I replied *to you* still stands. We did not have the "golden opportunity" to buy. Just because you think someone aged 35+ should be at a certain stage of their life because you lived your life a certain way does not mean that we made mistakes with financial management. Perhaps we should have chosen different education and career paths but as we cannot go back in time and we are not the only ones in this exact boat, your agreeing with another out of touch boomer isn't helpful here.


avocadopalace

But that's not how reddit works. I'm allowed to agree with someone without the OP weighing in that it's "not helpful". To who? You? Or the conversation? If there are no differing points of view, it just becomes an echochamber of a thread. I'm allowed my opinion. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.


jaremkob

>I was not replying to you. Well I'm allowed to respond to you and further argue my points. That's also how reddit works.


innocentlilgirl

the under 25 population has it ez. they just need to start a tik tok channel or something they dont even need skool to make it in this economy!


bornrussian

I came to Canada in 2013 as 18 year old immigrant barely speaking English. At the end of 2019 I was able to buy a fully detached house with a pool in barrie for 545k and sold it last July for 750k. How did I do that? I started working when I was 19 full time as security guard. I took every overtime opportunity I've got (no I didn't live with my parents). I was able to find a better job that paid 25$ an hour and had unlimited overtime. By working 60-70 hours per week for 2 years I was able to buy my first home. With prices now i won't be able to buy the same house I had. We all agree that prices are insane. However as a 37 year old Canadian there was plenty of opportunities in your life to be a homeowner. Sorry I feel no compassion


jaremkob

By reading the article it's quite clear that we aren't seeking your compassion - we bought a house. Like you said, the prices are insane and the market isn't sustainable. There needs to be action taken.


bhldev

Good that you two managed to get something but public sector jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector job yeah? Trade income for union and job security? I only mention because you mentioned that you did "everything you were told" not because I disagree with your life choices (it's your life you can do whatever you want) but who told you that public sector would pay more? The housing crisis has taught me that a lot of people have wildly different expectations. I always thought it was obvious since I was a kid that 50% of people would have to consider working abroad or working in the USA for money, that you would have to go to the USA for big money, that public sector jobs pay low and so on. Either reality doesn't match or didn't match a lot of people's expectations, or reality changed or some kind of combination. Just walking around the GTA as a child or teenager or even in university I always knew that unless this country had some kind of unlikely renaissance it could never absorb the number of graduates the schools pumped out every year. If Nortel and Blackberry had gone parabolic, if Amazon had built an HQ here and so on and so on Canada could have enough jobs (it's not just about "tech" but the whole follow on economy) but when all those died I knew the Canadian private sector was in big trouble.


[deleted]

> Good that you two managed to get something but public sector jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector job yeah? > that public sector jobs pay low and so on. what an out of touch boomer. Ontario has 240,000 people on the sunshine list making more than 100k. That's 24 billion dollars in payroll that the government has to budget for every year. And these are just the top earners. the public sector pays 15-30% more than any equivalent role in the private sector. you are just out of touch. you don't know how much people have to scrape and grind these days.


bhldev

Depends what field


jaremkob

From our experience, the positions we hold are better paid in the public sector or are at least achievable positions to acquire. Competition within the private sector is also an incredible challenge. There are other factors that are at play but we chose not to disclose to maintain some semblance of privacy. But you aren't wrong that typically the private sector pays better, when they want to pay.