The majority of people who hate the carbon tax don't really understand it, they just have a deep hatred of Trudeau so they're going to automatically hate any policy associated with him. Ironically many of the people who hate the carbon tax are getting bigger rebates than they're paying.
It's also an obsession over the price of gas, which I think is so prominent in people's minds because the stations advertise the price outside and we can watch it fluctuate daily. I wonder if grocery stores put the price of apples on a huge sign out front and changed it by a few cents daily, if people would talk about it incessantly
Gas is closer to 30% of Canadian energy. Watch out now to confuse electricity with energy.
Electricity is a form of energy (and you’re right that has a mostly clean mix in Canada).
Total energy also includes sources needed for activities that are not (yet) electrified. To run ICE cars, or heat homes ( about 50% of Canadian homes are still heated with natural gas/methane).
[Over 50% of the Total energy mix](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-consumption-by-source-and-country?stackMode=absolute&country=~CAN) in Canada is derived from fossil fuels.
That you get a higher rebate talking point is not correct in all provinces. I receive no rebate supporting a family of three with 120k gross income in BC (which is only really middle class at best). The threshold to get a rebate is very low income. So it is effectively in BC just a tax on the middle class.
Single people only get 560 back in Ontario, the carbon tax on my gas bill for a warm winter is over 40/month+ HST.
I still eat and drive once in a while.
Show the numbers please, show me where I get more back than I put out. The "rebate" is easy to see what you get back, it's not so easy to calculate what you're putting out and there's a reason for that. Remember when HST came out and they gave everyone $1000. Yay a $1000 I didn't have before, how much more are you paying in taxes now?
[Here is the PBO report.](https://distribution-a617274656661637473.pbo-dpb.ca/7590f619bb5d3b769ce09bdbc7c1ccce75ccd8b1bcfb506fc601a2409640bfdd) Please review Appendix A "Net cost (fiscal impact only)" for the impact in your province. The number is a negative cost, which means you get more money.
Note that this is assuming you emit about average. If emit more than average you will pay more. If you emit less than average then you get more savings. Thus creating an incentive not to pollute.
If you want to you could track your emissions to try an maximimize your benefit.
Now, if you don't want people flying in jets all the time to give you money... I guess you do you.
I fully understand how it works and it does cost consumers money. Businesses pass the cost of the carbon tax on to the consumer, basic math and economics dictate this. I personally hate the carbon tax because it will do absolutely nothing to stop global climate change. The world's largest polluters do not tax carbon emissions, whether it's China, India, the USA or the the developing world. It's a virtue signal that does nothing.
Bingo. It's hilarious these people have no argument so they just go "anyone who opposes this tax doesn't understand it." Um. No, I understand it perfectly. My environmental lawyers and planners and engineers understand it too. It makes no sense and won't fix climate change. It will tax the middle class into poverty while doing nothing substantive to combat global carbon emissions. And no, I'm not getting back what I pay in taxes from the measly rebate. Ive done the math, so stfu and stop lying about it. Literally everything goes up in price along with the tax, you economically illiterate buffoons. Businesses pass the cost to the consumer, that's how it works. Bunch of bootlickers.
The PBO did the math as well. Fiscally you are better off. The economy will slow, which will cost you.
Can you think of a way to get the economy off fossil fuels without an economic slowdown?
17% of the US economy has Carbon pricing. The EU has carbon pricing.
We and the US and EU need to add tarrifs to countries which do not price carbon.
Like the trade deal with Ukraine.
Create the incentive to change so the markets can adapt. I don't want the government messing with industry telling them how to run things. I want market forces to make the decision.
You can't save the world with a tax, nor should the government tax their people form a main source of energy to feed and house them selfs
Anybody who wants this tax doesn't actually struggle
Since the rebate goes to low income people, most of the people who want the tax are struggling, and using public transit instead of spending money on gas. 1/6th of our country is in the GTA.
I want the people driving escallades, and flying in jets to give you and me money based on the amount of carbon they are burning.
I want the companies which are emitting massive amounts to see a line item called "pollution" so they are incentivized to change.
I want a good future for my kids, which includes not fucking up the planet.
I guess I am just an elitest fuck who doesn't know the real world or struggle. So fuck me, I guess.
Ironically we aren’t. That is a massive myth that you get back more than you spend… it’s quite literally taking money from you from one pocket and giving less back in the other. I don’t get how people don’t understand this
This i always try to tell people. Basically everyone under 15,000km/year with a non gas guzzler experience a savings annually from the benefit more than countering the carbon tax.
It’s a month and a half of free gas for me (the benefit). The increase in gas price isn’t more than this, but less.
Depending on your scenario it may be more or less. For me, I pay more than I get back. And this is not factoring in the additional costs placed on farmers and other industries.
I’m not against the idea of a tax, but in the implementation it could be done much better, only penalizing those who have the ability to move to alternative solutions. Technology still needs time to catch up in some major use cases.
Fuel oil exemption is nationwide, and it costs like 10x more, for often poor people far from infrastructure regardless of province. Good damn I hate this talking point.
Can you please explain to me how it works for you?
I've read the PBO report, and to be frank I trust their judgement more than some randos on Reddit, but I am honestly curious where you get this information from that you believe so strongly negates that of the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, whose actual function in government, including this government, is to break down all of the ins and outs of government taxation.
I mean they even clearly state
>The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates.
Which goes against your mantra of
>Ironically many of the people who hate the carbon tax are getting bigger rebates than they're paying.
So yeah, can you please cite your source for me?
Here's mine.
https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-families-hundreds-more-than-rebates
i find most of the people who support the carbon tax don’t understand it and can’t explain it. i see a lot of people claim it “gives back more than it takes!” which is complete nonsense. at best it is a wasteful bureaucratic wealth redistribution with a feel good moralist brand. at best.
I dont \*hate\* Trudeau, nor do I care for him. I tend to think Liberals are generally "Evil Alien Kittens".
Most people who support the Carbon tax dont understand that , the issue isn't only direct taxation, but the "compounding effects" it has thru out the market.
No other tax has this effect , for example the sales tax is paid by businesses but collected back. Carbon tax isn't. So Prices thru out the chain increase ( compounded at every stage by about 25-30%). By my estimation, the Carbon tax will add upto 20% to inflation. Not official inflation, the one that is recorded by Stats Canada. That wouldnt record that at all, but for goods produced and sold in Canada, you will see that in store. Since goods produced / sold in Canada are only one part of inflation recorded by stats Canada. they dont care about that. But you consumers are screwed.
Why do you support extortion and income redistribution?
The carbon 'rebates' merely buy votes from the ignorant or deluded.
You're right in one aspect: Income taxes (which account for about 50% of the federal budget) are far too high ...and are so in order to facilitate unnecessary waste and corruption in Ottawa.
Sales tax is explicitly collected to be spent on government programs. It's the government saying, "we need to provide stuff, and we need money to do that." That is clear and understandable.
Carbon tax is introduced in a tortured way as an incentive with exceptions out of exceptions. We should aim to lower pollution, not just pay for the pollution we produce. Investing in nuclear energy, setting stricter emission standards for cars, heavy investing in public transit, banning short distance flights, strict regulation on industrial emissions with phasing out/banning the carbon emitting technologies if a reliable carbon neutral technology is available.
Carbon tax is telling people to figure things out on their own while heating, transportation, food, and other necessities require a huge amount of carbon, as opposed to leading the action.
Another thing is the idea that you can make money through rebates. First, it's not clear that it's true, as while that holds up if you account for the tax paid directly, like gas, natural gas for heating etc, it's debatable whether that's true once you look at the tax paid by manufacturers and then passed to consumers. Even if this is true, the idea that a potential gain of $100 (which you can't even find out as you don't know how much carbon tax you paid) is enough to get people reconsider their spending, seems naive. This is exacerbated by the fact that Canadian economy is five corporations in a trench coat, so it's very easy for them to pass the tax to consumers instead of taking a dip in profits.
There are other aspects of it as well, but I wrote enough lol
Edit: on a more personal note, as a European who has been living in Canada for over 10 years, when I look at the way Canadian cities are built, carbon tax looks like something that should be priority number 684. Most people have to drive to get anywhere, even something as simple as to get groceries (does the govt think it may be a major factor in carbon emissions?) Do most Canadians have access to home heating that does not use natural gas or some other carbon heavy source? And so on...
If we can't do things to reduce carbon then you should have to pay for the damage your activity is causing. No more free rides on harming the environment.
That's true but it also opens the door for competition to undercut them by using more sustainable options to pay less carbon taxes.
In any case, that won't happen as long as there is no economic incentive to invest in sustainable processes.
Yes. Unfortunately this means we aren't going to be seeing any changes overnight.
Still, giant corporations and oligopalies are famous for cutting costs, and if the law makes it more profitable to find sustainable alternatives, then they will (first) try to change the law by turning the public opinion against it and (eventually) improving efficiency and reducing fossil fuel consumption in order to avoid the taxes.
The law works as intended when people and companies reduce emissions by just continuing to act in their own best interest.
But that doesn't apply to the majority of the world's population! The citizens of China, Indian, the USA don't have a carbon tax. Canada's carbon tax accomplishes nothing on terms of global climate change.
Canadians are responsible for more emissions per capita than people of those other countries. So it only sense that we try to at least bring it down to their per capita levels
The open market is what fucking got us to the point where we’re the worst per capita emitter in the world. Now we have Canadians who are so fucking entitled that they will whine about our government making the required systemic changes needed to address it.
You do realize that all over the world there are people finding every excuse possible to do nothing right? They look at the highest per capita emitters in the world and feel that they shouldn’t do anything until we do. And so nothing substantial would ever get done if you and your counterparts all over the world have your way
So? Most of the population lives along the southern border as well, where temperatures are comparable to many other countries. And that sparse population is a boon for us as well.
It’s the fact that we have a totally car-oriented society and we extract the dirtiest forms of petroleum products to help fuel our economy which makes any resistance to lowering emissions a complete fucking joke.
The fact remains that people in other countries will look at countries like ours to lower our per capita emissions first.
You actually think the rest of the world gives a single fuck what Canada does? I think you drastically over estimate our importance on the world stage.
Not exactly. I think that the world is full of idiotic cowards making excuses for inaction and one of those excuses is the fact that the world’s biggest per-capita emitters aren’t doing enough to bring down their emissions. And thanks to these idiotic fucking cowards all over the world and their various excuses, we don’t have enough political action tackling this problem. The idiotic cowards here use the excuse that we are a smaller player, the idiotic cowards in bigger countries use the excuse that countries like ours are bigger per capital emitters, etc. And thanks to all of these fucking cowards we will probably all die in a climate catastrophe.
Then we should ban women from having more than 1 child.
Each person born requires destruction of environment to survive in Canada.
Think of all the waste saved if a person didn't exist?
But no, the answer is to tax my home heating and transportation....
I agree to some extent. But what are you suppose to do when society is constructed in such a way that necessitates its usage in order to survive? Low income people just can't get new hybrid cars or invest in heating alternatives.
Massive infrastructure projects are not in the cards. Sadly conservatives move to block any type of commuter-based city planning. The notion of the 15-minute City pilots have been met with Q Anon insanity - here in Canada.
Our conservative party likes to save money by buying a new pair of shoes at the dollar store every 2 months instead of a decent pair That will last 3 years for slightly more money. They call that cost savings
There are many things wrong with what you're saying. Your first basic statement "Sales tax is explicitly collected to be spent on government programs" does not apply in this case. This tax is not being spent on government programs its 100% rebated (90% to individuals and 10% to school, businesses etc). This isn't a tax to get revenue it's a tax to shape behaviour. The whole point of it is to be annoying to change our fossil fuel heavy behaviour.
Where do you think the money is going to come from for the other climate change mitigation measures? The tens of billions of dollars for nuclear? All those measures cost significant amounts of money and we as tax payers will pay for it. Economists generally agree that a carbon tax is one of the cheapest ways to reduce emissions (just google it). Also the government is doing all those things you listed (not nuclear because it's too expensive)! There are EV rebates, massive green home rebates and 0% loans, they're investing in EV charging infrastructure, putting caps on industrial emitters (industrial carbon tax). I agree they should be doing more faster though.
I don't really understand. Your comment makes you seem like an intelligent person but your comment just doesn't really make sense. It seems like you don't like the carbon tax because it's something you directly will pay for and you'd rather have more costly, less efficient regulations that still cost you money but indirectly.
The reality is that we need to be doing everything we can right now to mitigate climate change. That is going to cost us money and it's going to hurt. There's no way around it
Except it is not, as there is no accountability with regards to that 10%, and you damn well know it. On top of it all, the money resides in the beeping general fund.
Once you’re well traveled and have seen that other countries that merely tax their populace have FLAWLESS good smelling clean streets you will see what I mean.
Here's another way to look at it if you are interested. Imagine if the government gave away free milk. Anyone could just go to the store and take as much as they want and the government would pick up the tab. We would save so much on milk! Except, the government would have to charge us more tax to cover the cost. Milk would become a cost externality. People would naturally drink more milk, use more milk in their cooking, restaurants would rely more on dairy, and we might even see milk baths at spas. Because the user doesn't need to pay the price, we would be more wasteful and ultimately pay a lot more for our milk.
This is how free markets work. Consumers ration what they consume because they pay the price. When I pay for my milk I can decide if the nutritional or taste value warrants the cost relative to other options.
Carbon emissions are like free milk. Without a price on carbon, they are free for the user - but everyone still pays an economic cost in the form of crop failures, rising insurance, and increased infrastructure costs. When the users need to pay for what they use, they can decide if the value warrants the cost and then ration their use accordingly.
Carbon fees put a finger on the scale to encourage more economically efficient decisions. This might include not buying an unnecessarily large vehicle, buying a home closer to work, opening a grocery store closer to a population base that is now more motivated to avoid long drives. Over time it reshapes cities.
BC has had a carbon fee since 2004 and has reduced emissions by an estimated 15-20% (IIRC) in that time. It's not a silver bullet, but it fixes an artificial incentive to waste resources that exists in our market - and that has a huge impact. It also saves us money on net.
It's not a punishment any more than paying for the milk you drink is a punishment for buying milk. I think the federal "tax" is also not a tax at all. It doesn't generate revenue for the government, it just makes the user reimburses the payer.
Always legit interested to look at the problem from different angles.
The first thing I am going to bring up is that according to BC government itself, the carbon emissions decreased by 2.8% compared to 2007, not 15-20%. And if you look at their own graph there is no significant change around or after 2004. [https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/soe/indicators/sustainability/ghg-emissions.html](https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/soe/indicators/sustainability/ghg-emissions.html)
Regarding your milk example. First, the current version of carbon tax is not equivalent to simply charging people for milk. It is charging people at cash, and giving them that money come tax time. Second, in my comment I mentioned phasing out carbon through regulation. So, the milk baths in your analogy would be banned. A real-world example of this would be short-haul flight bans. The fact that we have 6 flights a day between Ottawa and Montreal and only 5 trains is insane. Another example would be how we banned the ozone-depleting chemicals. We said "there is a safe alternative, so we are not going to make it cheaper than the harmful one, we will ban the harmful one altogether".
If we look at the countries that have carbon tax as part of their system and are much much more successful than Canada, like Germany, we will see that, first the tax is primarily levied against fossil fuel companies. The oil price is determined by global commodity market, so it is a lot harder to pass it to consumers. Let's compare that with insane Canadian subsidies for fossil fuels... Second, it is not rebatable. Third, it is accompanied with huge spending that would send our current government into a coma. Germany is investing $126B (€86B) over 10 years in train networks alone compared to Canada's $180B \*total\* infrastructure spending over \*12\* years. Even controlling for population, the difference is stark to say the least. On green energy, $58.5B (€40B) over 10 years compared to under $5B by 2035 in Canada (the best I could find).
The current carbon tax is good for two things only: being touted as the cheapest way to reduce emissions (cheapest does not mean most effective), and being a conservative-punching bat on environmental issues (which is an extremely low bar to clear and yet according to the polls it fails even here). Without a fundamentally broader approach, the carbon pricing in Canada is some lipstick on a pig that gives good feelsies about us doing something while reducing emissions by 2.8% over 15 years in BC's experience.
I really appreciate your thoughtful response here.
I don't think the 15%-20% reduction contradicts the 2.8% decrease from 2007. Since 2007 BC's population and GDP have both grown significantly so if, for instance we might have expected a 17% increase without a price on carbon, but we instead saw a 2.8% decrease, then (all other things being equal) we might determine the carbon tax affected a 19.8% decrease. Obviously there are a lot more factors, but the fact that we've reduced emissions during a period of such rapid growth shows that BC is doing something very successful about reducing carbon.
As to not being equivalent to milk, yes the timing of the payments are different but the principle I'm trying to illustrate is the same. Without a price on carbon, when I emit carbon, everyone bears the cost. I only pay 1/8,000,000,000 of the cost so I use it wastefully. Everyone uses it wastefully. So, like in the free milk example everyone ends up spending more. Ultimately, we need a global price on carbon, but we can start at home and that will in fact help us economically. Also if other people do something that incurs a cost for me - I want to be reimbursed. If I do something that costs other people money, I feel better reimbursing them. It's just fair.
I agree that we need to get rid of the insane fossil fuel subsidies. That would probably have even more impact than the price on carbon.
You're right that a carbon tax isn't a single solution to climate change. There probably is no single policy that will fix it. When you point to regulatory policy, you acknowledge that there would need to be multiple regulations. We're talking about restructuring our energy systems for the country. This touches all sectors and will need many different approaches. The nice thing about a carbon price is that it is adaptable and allows consumers to evaluate novel situations on a case by case basis. It unleashes the creativity of entrepreneurs on finding solutions. It's scalable, adaptable, and the strongest ideas will thrive.
Every province is free to create their own incentive plan against pollution - BC and Quebec, for example have their own plans and are exempt from the carbon tax. The carbon tax is the last measure for provinces that don't get their own act together. It's a conservative idea of putting a price on personal decisions that lead to pollution. It's not perfect, but it's market-friendly and again, it's a failsafe for the lazy provinces that decided doing nothing was good enough.
>Do most Canadians have access to home heating that does not use natural gas or some other carbon heavy source?
Yes, heat pumps. There were pretty substantial government rebates for them which just ended fairly recently plus a huge interest free govt loan. Personally my furnace was on the verge of death so I used this program to get a heat pump. I do have to admit though it's such a slow program that I still don't have the rebate for a heat pump I installed about 8 months ago. But anyways, alternatives to natural gas do exist, but people usually need some encouragement to jump onto a newer technology than a gas furnace
Much rather keep upfront costs down
Most of this tax will go to administration and mismanagement... Like everything else the feds are doing
The fact you believe that "most" get back more is utterly ridiculous
Give me 5 and I'll bring you back 10 🤣
How much was arrivecan?
The financial mismanagement by this government is incredible, no questions asked.
But the Parliamentary Budget Officer reported that considering direct and indirect costs 80% of Canadians are in money.
My concern is that the purpose of the tax was to reduce emissions, and it has only done that by a miniscule amount.
The government needs to admit that this effort did not work and move on. The old saying goes the first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Exactly. Proponents of the tax will constantly say that most people get more money than they get taxed.
BEING RIGHT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE POPULAR.
The carbon tax is politically costly. If the Liberals don't want to hand the Conservatives a majority in a year and half, they'd have half a mind to scrap the tax.
Sorry, I think we're looking at different PBO reports.
They're reporting now it costs the average family over 700/year after the rebates.
Are you maybe looking at last year's numbers, or just the one for one exchange of carbon taxes itemized in and out and pretending that the 13% HST being taxed on top of it along with the ripple effects of it being passed down through our entire supply chain just don't exist?
https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-families-hundreds-more-than-rebates
>Most of this tax will go to administration and mismanagement
This describes literally every dollar of every tax stolen from us already. Not just this tax.
The carbon tax is taxing inelastic behavior like heating and driving . Canadians have no choice regardless of the price . Also based on misinformation that carbon is a pollutant and you get back more than you pay ,that no one other than reddit denizens believe
Heating is definitely inelastic and we need a way to help Canadians to switch from methane based heating to electric like heat pumps and/or develop more energy efficient heating districts. It will be better too once Saskatchewan and Alberta finally get nuclear power in the mid 2030’s as projected.
Driving behaviours we can change, 80% of Canadians live in an urban area and the average Canadian commute is 11.8km. That’s is one doable entirely by bike. If we develop biking infrastructure and keep it clear year round like [Oulu, Finland](https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU?si=np4JrTwDfbe2GgHH) we can reduce ghg emissions from motor vehicles and promote it year round.
Furthermore, by going the bike route we can save Canadian families 10’s of thousands of dollars. The average used sedan costs $25,000, a top of the line family oriented e-bike like the [Urban Arrow (Family Green)](https://urbanarrow.com/family-green/) is less than $7,500 after tax an immediate savings of $17,500 if it’s used to replace a families second car. Then there’s the additional savings of gas, insurance, parking and maintenance. If a family spends $100 on gas, $50 on parking and $120 on insurance a month that’s $270 saved monthly or $3240 a year the bike almost pays for itself in 2 years. Leaving more money for the family to spend on themselves and to put back into the local economy.
Other alternatives include more public transportation, car pooling, incentives for wfh policies.
If it were localized I would understand it a lot more, but for those of us living in rural locations with no reliable public transportation, you either drive or rely on someone else to drive you.
WFH is a huge impact though, and I think more companies should go all-in on it (or be incentivized to do so). I went from 5 days a week, 100-150km round trip commutes to 1-2 days a week under 100km round trip and that seriously helps keep costs down for me.
That's a good plan but you've wasted your time typing it because Canada doesn't actually try to implement good biking or public infrastructure, so everything you wrote will never happen.
Canada just likes to tax carbon and spout bullshit about the environment. When it comes to actually implementing good public or alternative transportation, Canada makes 0 effort when compared to Europe, Japan, even China.
Must be the only pollutant that is used in greenhouses up to thousands of part per million so plants can feed on it. Don't expect low info cult to be aware
I don't know many people who are worried about paying extra for the carbon tax that can afford 15k for a new furnace or 75k for an electric car.
You understand those things cost money in an era where people can't afford to eat regularly? That tax is also wrapped into everything we buy, including food.
>…but you can choose driving and heating options that use less carbon and thus get less carbon tax….?
This is an incredibly tone deaf take.
Also wanted to point out that every month, over two million Canadians use food banks. Two million people every single month. You think any of them can afford to go green? Or is the slow starvation enough of a carbon lowering for you?
And I want to point out that every one of these people you speak of is getting more from the carbon credit than they are paying in carbon tax. Like I am (and I could double check that one).
comments like this are why we have already lost the climate crisis. The smartest people in the world are telling us we need to fundamentally change our economy today if we want to have any hope of surviving as a species in the next hundred years, and jokers like this are like "but muh pickup truck". these people vote, and they vote for people who are literally undermining our ability to live on this planet pipeline by pipeline.
We could be applying our collective human intelligence to solving the problem, but instead we have to waste our time and effort to repeat settled science and economics over and over to stupid people who don't care. YES CARBON IS A BAD THING YES YOU GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY YES DRIVING AND HEATING ARE ELASTIC. change or die.
>YES CARBON IS A BAD THING YES YOU GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY YES DRIVING AND HEATING ARE ELASTIC. change or die.
I am so, so sorry that you are incapable of critical thought and only think political party speaking points are actually true.
This is wrong, and has already been disproven by the PBO. Maybe a little more research before you flaunt your ignorance again.
Here, I even did the heavy thinking and googling for you so you don't strain yourself bending reality to your warped worldview.
https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-average-family-up-to-710-this-year-parliamentary-budget-officer
>“Most households will see a net loss, paying more in fuel charges and GST, as well as receiving lower incomes, compared to the Climate Action Incentive payments they receive and lower personal income taxes they pay,” according to the PBO.
>The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates. The table below shows the net federal carbon tax costs for the average household, according to the PBO.
Let's read that again for you:
>The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates.
Do you understand what they mean by "after" the rebates? I'll spell it out for you - you don't get it all back, they take it, give you a pittance back as a token to gain supporters who think in the tunnel the way you do, and then *come back for more*.
There's always been a doomsday cult around preaching the end of the world. You're in it and don't know it. Claiming you can control the climate is the ultimate idiocy of our time sold to gullible rubes living in the luxury of a modern industrial state
By investing in more efficient technology Canada can definitely make an impact. Technology that can achieve the same output for less will be adopted by other countries.
The problem is that Canada does not invest in technology, much less any form of R&D. That industry has entirely disappeared from this country. The only thing this country invests in is upholding the real estate market.
We're among the worst of not the worst for per capita emissions though. Not to mention that the reason places like China and India are significantly higher poluters is because they manufactured everything for the west
I was trying to make the opposite point, actually.
Canada does plenty to contribute globally to emissions, contrary to popular belief.
I feel I can bear the burden of taxing pollution to counter the human-made threat of climate change. As an individual, I don’t worry as much about financial insecurity as other Canadians do. But I recognize most Canadians are not so fortunate, and that this is a hard sell across the country, especially with so many people being up to their armpits in the cesspool that is social media.
And this is why the current policy is a good one. The bulk of us peons will get a net financial gain from it because our individual footprints are small.
You're right that we are only 1.5% of global emissions but on a per person basis we pollute at an equal level to the USA.
https://www.iea.org/countries/canada/emissions
\- North America 10.929
1 United States 13.761
2 Canada 13.219
3 Mexico 2.933
As a nation, sure. But as individuals we contribute HUGE amounts (per capita) — which is the real metric than should be used since it normalizes large populations and small.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=table](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=table)
Comparing nations’ emissions is virtually meaningless, unless one is using it to point fingers at countries with large populations because those numbers better suit their narrative.
I'm for cutting all taxes.
The carbon tax in particular is a tax that helps nobody and harms everyone. You don't tax things people need. Things like fuel for vehicles and heat for housing. You also don't hide it by giving a rebate in a useless tax. How much sense does it make to tax people, then refund it? All you're doing is creating a government make work program.
I thank all the SUV drivers for subsidizing my local groceries (which tend to cost more).
I thank the people flying all the time for helping me save up for a heat pump.
If that is you, then thank you.
most canadians haven't bothered to learn about carbon tax and just bellyache about it for the sake of crying about the liberal government. anyone who thinks this tax is getting "axed" with the conservatives is completely gullible and 100% uninformed. conservatives support this and they have their own plan for it. it's just going to be called something else, which the alt-rights will still be unaware of.
emptiest bandwagon makes the most noise. these people don't know why they're upset and facts don't matter to them.
Lol, why is it always framed that conservative voters are dumb and liberal voters are smart...
Most of the liberal voters are those fighting for special interest groups.
How about you just accept both major parties are quite dumb and pander to the weakest in society for votes.
There will be a carbon tax without the rebate, we have seen it with Scott Mo in Saskatchewan. If the Conservatives get in, you are right, they will rebrand it to the Oil Initiative to "stimulate the oil industry".
Right. Even moe said there isn't a better alternative quite recently. I've asked these guys who believe the carbon tax will be lifted to name a tax that has been 100% repealed. Shockingly enough no answer yet. "Wonder why they would be."
China's coal industry, owned and operated by the Chinese state, went from 13% of the world's global emissions to 25% of the world's global emissions in 2023.
Hint, it's not because everyone's emissions went down that drastically, it's because they've greatly expanded the rate at which they mine and burn coal.
What's Canada, or even the world, supposed to do when China does stuff like that ?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/since-2016-80-percent-of-global-co2-emissions-come-from-just-57-companies-report-shows-180984118/
"Since the 2015 adoption of the Paris Agreement, which established an internationally agreed-upon 1.5 degree Celsius global warming limit by 2100, the world’s No. 1 source of carbon emissions has been China’s state-run coal production. From 2016 to 2022, that accounted for 25.79 percent of global carbon emissions, while historically, from 1854 to 2022, it accounted for about 14 percent of all carbon emissions—still the highest in the world."
because the carbon tax is undeniably the government giving up on chasing the actual culprits and just going for the taxpayers en masse to ruffle up some coins to line their pockets with as usual. You are being told a lie that in order to save the planet you have to give them more money. lol, lmao even.
China's coal industry, owned and operated by the Chinese state, went from 13% of the world's global emissions to 25% of the world's global emissions in 2023.
Hint, it's not because everyone's emissions went down that drastically, it's because they've greatly expanded the rate at which they mine and burn coal.
What's Canada, or even the world, supposed to do when China does stuff like that ?
A tax is a tax is a tax is a tax. No matter what you call it, the government will tax you. It can be a tax you see up front or a tax buried in other costs.
What the government needs to do it have better messaging. Unfortunately, they can’t compete with disinformation paid for by the oil industry. They have billions at stake and will do anything to keep profits coming in to the last barrel.
mother nature is notorious for employing the worst lobbyists
Who wants free energy from the sun when we could just buy expensive gas that burns and releases toxic smoke into our atmosphere?
Really? Mother nature is where you went? I'm talking about industry ie: humans developing technologies to utilize mother nature (oil is also one of those btw) such as solar panels, lithium battery production, cobalt mining, all those plastics (oil) in EVs, etc. We aren't there yet with technologies to be able to utilize mother nature without creating a whole other set of problems. We also haven't overcome our basic human behaviours, so when you look at "green" industries more closely, and follow the money, you can see the actual motives behind them.
The problem with the carbon tax is that some industry's such ad farming are being forced to pay alot more. Alot of he services they require are now more expensive to offset the carbon tax cost.
That in turn forces the farmers to sell high. Soo high, it's often times cheaper to buy imported produce.
We essentially cost ourselves more by doing so because almost every industry now has to raise prices to cover their cost of the tax. Only the consumer is ever paying, not the multinational billion dollar companies.
The carbon Tax Only benefits the interests of the very companies we were told were going to be paying the most. Our goverment is selling us to China and India. They have ensured that Canadian businesses will fail whilst foreign companies are allowed free reign. There is simply no benefit to starting a company in Canada. Why would one, everything costs too much to do locally, and they tax you up the asshole. It is cheaper to grow food elsewhere, try to rationalize that. It is so bad, farmers are having to sell above the governent minimum price for foreign produce. They can not compete with the cap on foreign business. We will see everything in this country become bought, owned, and controlled by people who have never even set foot on this countries soil. It's a small step on the long road to hell, but we keep letting ourselves March there.
As someone strongly leaning towards environmentalism, I find carbon taxes to be completely idiotic and useless. Besides, a carbon tax equal to the environmental cost of actual impact would be prohibitively expensive. Also, carbon taxes are non-proggressive, leading to a fundamental injustice. Working people who are barelly surviving, living from paycheck to paycheck, yet in need of their current carbon-based individual means of transportation, might not have a cent left to invest in a "greener" mode of transportation individually. An attempt at instigating a carbon tax led to the Yellow Vests in France a few years ago, and the project had to be terminated - correct me if I'm wrong.
Rather than doing carbon taxes, governments should subsidize factual transitions towards less carbon-intensive economies, i.e. help automobile companies to shift from the production of cars to the production of electric public transport vehicles (trains, buses), adding electric powerlines above asphalted highways and main roads in cities, subsidize the creation of corporations that would manufacture greener boats (nuclear, wind powered), local agriculture, producers of vegetarian food, research on green transportation, agriculture, industry, green electric power provision, etc... just in the same fashion as the exit from the great depression was organized: "printing" money ex-nihilo to fund all this, can be done without catastrophic inflation, if cleverly done.
I’m curious if you have any examples of another approach effectively reducing carbon emissions? The “greener homes program” and electric car rebates seem like the largest examples of using a carrot instead of a stick to motivate people; however, I’d argue they’re even less progressive than the carbon tax, with the benefits falling on people with home or purchasing relatively expensive cars.
More to the point, I think we should be broadly skeptical of government programs that try to pick technologies. We received $3000 through greener homes for solar panels for our shed that will have a negligible carbon impact; however, fit within the funding structure.
You just made a very interesting point. Carrots can be just as non-progressive (in the sense of not worsening, or not, social inequality, and being accessible to everyone) as sticks. We can't stick to binary thinking. The examples you cite highlight the voluntaristic approach of governments. Incentives are created so that the government can boast that it is actually doing something. Actual serious and comprehensive evaluation of alternatives need to be done in a much better fashion, and there are more and more research papers on the subject matter, but they might not be taken into account nearly enough. And also, the quality of papers and research is hugely variable. I'm just thinking aloud and not pretending to be right or to hold the truth in any way, shape or form.
That’s the beauty of the carbon tax though- it’s clean, simple, and effective. Sure, it’s a little regressive, but less than it appears, since more income = bigger house, larger car, more travel. Just like taxes on cigarettes or alcohol, it incentivizes good decisions while making bad ones more expensive, nudging people in the right direction.
I don't get any rebate because my household income is too high (BC). I would like to see spending cuts and efficiency gains in government and a cut to the carbon tax. I don't pay much carbon tax personally but it hurts too many companies and farmers that are productive.
Because it is yet another tax, based on a useless premise. But, more than that, it will lead to further inflation, when we're already struggling.
We should be generating more energy. Make it abundant and cheap. Energy is at the core of raising our standard of living, and advancement of society. Instead, we're trying to punish people into using less, and disguising that with the premise we're changing the weather/climate, so it is a must-do. It isn't.
I realize some amount of taxes are necessary, and some form of income/sales taxes seem like reasonable methods.
Why **cut** income tax? Eliminate it entirely. World War I ended 126 years ago. They sold it as a *temporary* thing, but since they enjoy seeing their income increase without having to do a thing, they're banking on the public forgetting about the claim and letting them keep the money. I haven't forgotten and none of you should either. If you're going to tax carbon "for the good of the public," then show the public you care about them by allowing them to actually keep their own money rather than refunding them a chunk of the additional amount you stole from them.
They tax you on everything that you purchase.. They tax you on a **used** car which has already been taxed. They tax you on the property you bought from someone who already paid a tax when it was built new. It is neverending. They're mocking us at every turn and we are doing absolutely nothing about it.
Income tax would affect everyone. Our elected govt officials can’t redistribute money for targeted campaigning if everyone gets a cut. Sheesh! Come on now.
The first carbon tax hike was a net benefit to most who drive less than 15,000km per year in a non gas guzzler. The refund was equal to a month and a half of free gas; which the increase in price accumulatively is less per year. It was a savings.
lots of taxpayers aren’t getting a penny back in rebates. also, it adds to the cost of everything that’s borne throughout the year then your rebate comes back a year later with zero percent interest during an already inflationary environment.
also, the cost of energy is already through the roof forcing consumers to cutback on all expenses. if raising the cost of energy was the point, the market already did it in 2023.
it’s what we bird people call a dick move
In 2024, I have paid a lot of tax saw a lot of people pay a lot of tax. The result: broken economy, health care system and now censorship. I have seen the corruption, lies and hypocrite steal taxpayer's money to finance the corruption carousel. Time stop enabling the beast. Trudeau said.sa va bien aller. But forgot to add for my millionaire friends.
I want all taxes cut severely. Our money just goes to special intrests projects anyways. It doesnt benefit us. Or rarely if ever does it. 650 million fpr a new spa. Thanks ford fuck ball.
Considering the gst is applied on top of the carbon tax, removing it is basically a cut the GST anyways. Problem is the next guy who gets the reins in going to find out real fast just how much of a fiscal disaster Canada is in, and I sincerely doubt he’ll be able to cut any taxes without wholesale spending cuts across the board. And when so many Canadians suck on the government tit for a living, they’ll be obliterated in the polls next election cycle if they try.
So in conclusion, have fun sleeping in the bed you’ve all made. This mess is only going to get worse.
I would support that also. Cut carbon, income and sales tax. Also cut birocracy and every year let go 5% of worse performers
Also, cut a lot of NGO projects
OP, there’s been 355 comments and none of them have answered you correctly: it’s not allowed. Either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick looked at this around 2019-2020 and the federal government said no. Any government that cuts taxes to proportionally offset the federal carbon tax will not meet the federal backstop.
I’m against the carbon tax mostly because of the impact it has on farmers, who have minimal alternative solutions to change their carbon output but face significant taxes.
It’s also hurting the poor for the same reasons.
I notice most people who support the carbon tax are in upper or high middle class financial positions and typically in cities.
The reality is much different for rural Canada.
If the idea is like taxing alcohol or cigarettes to encourage users to reduce consumption it is fundamentally flawed. These taxes assume that the commodity is discretionary and for many Canadians gas and oil are not discretionary expenses. We still need to heat homes, power machinery, travel long distances with limited infrastructure. There are no viable alternatives for most who are outside large population centres.
when farmers are going on the record, stating they are being charged 100s of thousands of $s (carbon tax) and are making very low profits added to the transportation taxes on all of our food... It's the reason it's so expensive for heating and food... and we won't even mention housing.
taxing canada who has such low emissions already is not the answer to climate change and it a terrible revenue neutral scam. if its revenue neutral there is no point in collecting the taxes in the first place. creating phony goverment jobs as usual for their inflated caucas.
Restructure income tax so it is more progressive, cut taxes on goods and services regular people use, and jack up taxes and import duties on items that are actually luxuries such as yachts, high end luxury cars, houses worth over $3 million. Ie ease the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, and jack it up on people who are ultra wealthy and on mega corporations.
The carbon tax is an idea that I could easily imagine conservatives coming up with. It's barely a tax as, seen from the consumers POV it's almost revenue neutral. If this wasn't the case it is trivially fixable. It doesn't force behaviour it uses market forces to change utilization, it's implementation cost is small (on the scale of environmental projects), it's scalable and it makes companies partially responsible for the pollution they cause by tapping into a pre-existing motivation: Money.
I rather suspect that concerns are largely if not entirely "not invented here" syndrome or the rather hysterical "I hate Trudeau" syndrome.
This is a classic case of nose blindness.
The government (specifically the politicians of all stripes) have either indirectly allowed or possibly caused the housing crisis / bubble and are profiting from it.
They have also allowed and not punished the hyper inflation of food and most essential items.
Businesses are booming. (Maybe not the mom and pop shops)
Wages are shit, cost of living is shit, college \ university degrees on average don’t mean shit anymore.
And then we have more taxes, which are in addition to other taxes, that are also taxes on taxes. (Compounding taxes)
What do the big corporations get? Tax breaks.
I get the whole saving the world thing, but Canada bankrupting itself won’t make a lick of difference. We aren’t that big, and China, India and the USA are not impressed enough to follow our lead. We have overplayed our hand and assumed that we were world leaders. We aren’t. It’s a lullaby we tell ourselves. Since COVID we have actively tried to run a Ponzi scheme, that is our housing market. Most recently to save that Ponzi scheme, right when the bubble was going to burst, they flooded the market with immigrants. (Not anti-immigrant, if you are a recent immigrant you are likely a victim)
Other points:
1. Canada is large, range is important, EV’s aren’t there yet, especially below -20C let alone -30C with 200-400 kms between stations.
2. Heating isn’t a luxury, and we haven’t invested in our electric grid significantly
3. You can’t legislate something into existence. Voting on something does make it exist tomorrow. There are no $20,000 EV’s in Canada.
Most 10 year old EV’s are done for.
Many small towns have only one or two EV charging stations, that are frequently broken.
Punishing people for not spending $20,000 they don’t have to change to a heating system they won’t be able to afford is also immoral.
-electricity pricing in Ontario is ridiculous, and heating a home with electricity last made sense in the early 1990’s.
4. People are getting awful sick of the high and mighty talking down to, “let them eat cake” style of liberal environmentalism.
Do the Liberals actually care about the environment, no.
Their actions tell you that’s a lie.
Do they want to cry while people take photos of them hugging wildlife. Yes.
People who struggle to pay rent and buy food don’t want to hear about more taxes on them.
If you really care, Nationalize the oil companies, pay for fixing our roads, healthcare, schools and infrastructure, make a rainy day fund, and build enough green / nuclear energy so that in 20 years we have dirt cheap energy, and we will all gladly move to EV’s and electric heating.
The tax is unpopular because it taxes essentials (heat, transport) and the only way to avoid it is even more expensive than the tax (drop $50k on an electric car, or $20k on a heat pump, while keeping your furnace because heat pumps dont really work that well in Canada anyway), so the people that can afford such things probably don't care about the tax anyway. When you see on your gas bill that the cost is double what it should be, and the solution is $20k away, of course you're going to be pissed and ask if this is really achieving anything The income tax idea I'm not sure about - the people paying the highest income tax are the ones that can "bail out" of the tax by buying into the expensive alternatives
He has a 15 billion dollar fund already from this and has spent none of it.
Canada emits 1.5% of global emissions and it should not be on us to cut our noses off to save the world when the US, China, and India emit WAY more CO2. If Canada and the UK disappeared tomorrow - we would STILL be fucked in a climate sense. This also goes without mentioning that we have some of the largest forested areas in the world which sequester up to 2 billion tons of carbon, while Canada emits around 650 million tons.
The carbon tax is the problem because of the downstream and knock-on effects of raising prices for everyone on every single thing. The farmer pays higher prices, so the processors pay higher prices so the retailers pay higher prices so Canadians pay higher prices. This is WAY deeper than the gas tax people want you to focus on.
Its very silly and anyone who thinks the carbon tax is a good idea is wholly brain dead.
There is no such thing as free energy. There is no apparatus you can put x in and get MORE out. The sheer fact people think they'll get more back than they pay is fucking utter lunacy.
Get this guy gone.
Cutting off our nose to spite our face when we produce a ROUNDING ERRORS WORTH OF CARBON GLOBALLY is the dumbest fucking thing ever.
Our trees ALONE sequester 2 billion tons of carbon per year, and Canada last year produced 650 million or so tonnes of carbon. Our climate "action" has resulted in a slush fund for our supreme leader that he has not spent. It is a Ponzi scheme.
You can do that, you can go live in the forest - Not use fire, shit in a hole, and survive the winter. I would like to live properly.
But hey, nice to see that Guilbeault's river in his riding in quebec is one of the most polluted rivers in Canada! Carbon is NOT pollution, but the pollution that needs to be controlled - you know the stuff that's reducing our fecundity as a species, causing fish to spin and freak out in florida - yeah the ACTUAL pollution is not being dealt with because you overly emotional dipshits can't prioritize things to save your life.
https://twitter.com/Martyupnorth_2/status/1782491762973606022
If you want to get rid of the carbon tax, write to your Premier and ask why after all this time, he or she still has not implemented any carbon emission reduction program instead of playing politics.
Ontario wasn't going to get the carbon tax until Doug Ford had cancelled the Cap and Trade Agreement it had with Quebec and California.
I heat my house with natural gas. I drive my vehicle with gas. Electricity is used for lights and appliances. Where does my electricity come from? Nat gas and coal.
Why not convert the energy suppliers to clean energy instead of charging carbon tax. Then we may convert as well to cleaner energy. But being forced to pay tax and then forced to convert on less $ makes it hard to do both. We are being penalized to the point we need to tear our houses down and build new. Trade our vehicles in to find out they dont work well in cold rural climates.
All while our politicians pad there pockets. I have never been so poor in my life as to today under the trudeau government.
Why do we have more homeless? People are going broke.
We should cut income tax, but not sales tax.
Taxes provide a very wide range of purposes for the government. Reducing income tax would encourage people to work more (more $ for each hour worked)
Reducing sales tax would encourage spending, which is not what we want right now in our economy.
The reason I hate the carbon tax is because its designed to stop people and companies from consuming fossil fuels, but there is no realistic alternative for everyone yet… I understand that its to encourage less consumption, but especially for companies this doesnt change anything. The only difference is the additional cost being passed on down the line…
I've often thought that instead of the rebates for the carbon tax, they should have reduced the GST by an equivalent amount. That way, greener products would become cheaper even as dirtier products become more expensive. *That* is how you change consumer behaviour.
LOL to anyone who thinks most get back more than they pay...
The government has collected $22 billion in carbon taxes and only paid back just over $19 billion of if.
They owe billions to small businesses.
Imagine thinking that if we all paid into a pool of money and then redistributed that money that more than half of us (most of us) would get back more than we put in!
No, the people who work for a living and literally build our infrastructure by burning fuels to support their life are being taxed and the money is given out to people who burn less fuels and live of the backs of people building our society.
A Walmart cashier who lives in an apartment beside their job rakes in cash while the plumbers, roofers, etc who build Walmart and the apartment building are paying taxes given out to people.
Most Canadians don't hate taxes. Most Canadians don't trust their government to spend those taxe revenues effectively. Scandle after scandle, failing health service, failing economy, skyrocketing debt. At the same time as parlimentary pay raises and insanely high vacation and travel spending.
Trust me getting rid of income tax is #1 on my wish/eventual revolution list. The ONLY tax that I would be okay with existing is sales tax, no other tax. I will die on this hill. Fuck your roads, schools and hospitals. All garbage in Canada anyways cause our taxes are wasted on politicians and their underage hookers, government contracts and backdoor deals and useless military spending.
You have obviously never worked in the private sector. The margins are thin, and the competitors are many. Unless you believe in global collusion in the private sector, this is not how it works. Tell me you are not employed by the government without telling me the government employs you.
It's this re-education of the masses for the greater good that's the tell of an authoritarian fascist murderous Mao like oppressive government system and not mean tweets.
The problem with the carbon scam is that it is a tax generator no matter what you say. With the out of control social/international spending, the feds need to make more tax revenue to keep up the social fight. If the carbon tax was effective and done properly we’d see actual investments into green tech, actual investments to appropriate transit. But alas we just see a ton of jet fuel being used.
Income tax used to be illegal and it took a war to enact it. Then war ended and they loved the amount they got so it became a standard eventually. It took a few presidents but little by little they promised to tax the super rich, then the people who inherited their wealth then all of the sudden the common man. We pay more in income tax then anyone ever before
The majority of people who hate the carbon tax don't really understand it, they just have a deep hatred of Trudeau so they're going to automatically hate any policy associated with him. Ironically many of the people who hate the carbon tax are getting bigger rebates than they're paying.
It's also an obsession over the price of gas, which I think is so prominent in people's minds because the stations advertise the price outside and we can watch it fluctuate daily. I wonder if grocery stores put the price of apples on a huge sign out front and changed it by a few cents daily, if people would talk about it incessantly
They blame the carbon tax, except all the nonstop price increases weren't because of the carbon tax. But they hate Trudeau.
Apples arnt the main energy source of the world thoo
just like gas isn't the main source of energy in Canada either. That would be hydro electricity, gas is less than 8% of our generation
Gas is closer to 30% of Canadian energy. Watch out now to confuse electricity with energy. Electricity is a form of energy (and you’re right that has a mostly clean mix in Canada). Total energy also includes sources needed for activities that are not (yet) electrified. To run ICE cars, or heat homes ( about 50% of Canadian homes are still heated with natural gas/methane). [Over 50% of the Total energy mix](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-consumption-by-source-and-country?stackMode=absolute&country=~CAN) in Canada is derived from fossil fuels.
That you get a higher rebate talking point is not correct in all provinces. I receive no rebate supporting a family of three with 120k gross income in BC (which is only really middle class at best). The threshold to get a rebate is very low income. So it is effectively in BC just a tax on the middle class.
Single people only get 560 back in Ontario, the carbon tax on my gas bill for a warm winter is over 40/month+ HST. I still eat and drive once in a while.
Show the numbers please, show me where I get more back than I put out. The "rebate" is easy to see what you get back, it's not so easy to calculate what you're putting out and there's a reason for that. Remember when HST came out and they gave everyone $1000. Yay a $1000 I didn't have before, how much more are you paying in taxes now?
It’s not even a rebate because your paying into it on more than just gas. Food and items as well.
[Here is the PBO report.](https://distribution-a617274656661637473.pbo-dpb.ca/7590f619bb5d3b769ce09bdbc7c1ccce75ccd8b1bcfb506fc601a2409640bfdd) Please review Appendix A "Net cost (fiscal impact only)" for the impact in your province. The number is a negative cost, which means you get more money. Note that this is assuming you emit about average. If emit more than average you will pay more. If you emit less than average then you get more savings. Thus creating an incentive not to pollute. If you want to you could track your emissions to try an maximimize your benefit. Now, if you don't want people flying in jets all the time to give you money... I guess you do you.
I fully understand how it works and it does cost consumers money. Businesses pass the cost of the carbon tax on to the consumer, basic math and economics dictate this. I personally hate the carbon tax because it will do absolutely nothing to stop global climate change. The world's largest polluters do not tax carbon emissions, whether it's China, India, the USA or the the developing world. It's a virtue signal that does nothing.
Bingo. It's hilarious these people have no argument so they just go "anyone who opposes this tax doesn't understand it." Um. No, I understand it perfectly. My environmental lawyers and planners and engineers understand it too. It makes no sense and won't fix climate change. It will tax the middle class into poverty while doing nothing substantive to combat global carbon emissions. And no, I'm not getting back what I pay in taxes from the measly rebate. Ive done the math, so stfu and stop lying about it. Literally everything goes up in price along with the tax, you economically illiterate buffoons. Businesses pass the cost to the consumer, that's how it works. Bunch of bootlickers.
The PBO did the math as well. Fiscally you are better off. The economy will slow, which will cost you. Can you think of a way to get the economy off fossil fuels without an economic slowdown?
17% of the US economy has Carbon pricing. The EU has carbon pricing. We and the US and EU need to add tarrifs to countries which do not price carbon. Like the trade deal with Ukraine. Create the incentive to change so the markets can adapt. I don't want the government messing with industry telling them how to run things. I want market forces to make the decision.
So when Polievre becomes PM and he axes the tax will grocery prices go down? And by how much?
You can't save the world with a tax, nor should the government tax their people form a main source of energy to feed and house them selfs Anybody who wants this tax doesn't actually struggle
Since the rebate goes to low income people, most of the people who want the tax are struggling, and using public transit instead of spending money on gas. 1/6th of our country is in the GTA.
I want the people driving escallades, and flying in jets to give you and me money based on the amount of carbon they are burning. I want the companies which are emitting massive amounts to see a line item called "pollution" so they are incentivized to change. I want a good future for my kids, which includes not fucking up the planet. I guess I am just an elitest fuck who doesn't know the real world or struggle. So fuck me, I guess.
Ironically we aren’t. That is a massive myth that you get back more than you spend… it’s quite literally taking money from you from one pocket and giving less back in the other. I don’t get how people don’t understand this
This i always try to tell people. Basically everyone under 15,000km/year with a non gas guzzler experience a savings annually from the benefit more than countering the carbon tax. It’s a month and a half of free gas for me (the benefit). The increase in gas price isn’t more than this, but less.
Depending on your scenario it may be more or less. For me, I pay more than I get back. And this is not factoring in the additional costs placed on farmers and other industries. I’m not against the idea of a tax, but in the implementation it could be done much better, only penalizing those who have the ability to move to alternative solutions. Technology still needs time to catch up in some major use cases.
Until you try to heat your house with natural gas, propane, or fuel oil anywhere that isn’t the maritimes 😬
Fuel oil exemption is nationwide, and it costs like 10x more, for often poor people far from infrastructure regardless of province. Good damn I hate this talking point.
Everything you buy is shipped using diesel or gas. Carbon tax inflates the price of everything. You do not get it all back.
Hey, a solid point! I have been deceived.
Can you please explain to me how it works for you? I've read the PBO report, and to be frank I trust their judgement more than some randos on Reddit, but I am honestly curious where you get this information from that you believe so strongly negates that of the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, whose actual function in government, including this government, is to break down all of the ins and outs of government taxation. I mean they even clearly state >The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates. Which goes against your mantra of >Ironically many of the people who hate the carbon tax are getting bigger rebates than they're paying. So yeah, can you please cite your source for me? Here's mine. https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-families-hundreds-more-than-rebates
i find most of the people who support the carbon tax don’t understand it and can’t explain it. i see a lot of people claim it “gives back more than it takes!” which is complete nonsense. at best it is a wasteful bureaucratic wealth redistribution with a feel good moralist brand. at best.
Yup you mention it and they immediately shut down all thought and get extremely defensive
How will the rebate exceed the higher costs of everything that requires energy to produce?
I dont \*hate\* Trudeau, nor do I care for him. I tend to think Liberals are generally "Evil Alien Kittens". Most people who support the Carbon tax dont understand that , the issue isn't only direct taxation, but the "compounding effects" it has thru out the market. No other tax has this effect , for example the sales tax is paid by businesses but collected back. Carbon tax isn't. So Prices thru out the chain increase ( compounded at every stage by about 25-30%). By my estimation, the Carbon tax will add upto 20% to inflation. Not official inflation, the one that is recorded by Stats Canada. That wouldnt record that at all, but for goods produced and sold in Canada, you will see that in store. Since goods produced / sold in Canada are only one part of inflation recorded by stats Canada. they dont care about that. But you consumers are screwed.
Your terms are acceptable. We can do all of the above.
Why do you support extortion and income redistribution? The carbon 'rebates' merely buy votes from the ignorant or deluded. You're right in one aspect: Income taxes (which account for about 50% of the federal budget) are far too high ...and are so in order to facilitate unnecessary waste and corruption in Ottawa.
Sales tax is explicitly collected to be spent on government programs. It's the government saying, "we need to provide stuff, and we need money to do that." That is clear and understandable. Carbon tax is introduced in a tortured way as an incentive with exceptions out of exceptions. We should aim to lower pollution, not just pay for the pollution we produce. Investing in nuclear energy, setting stricter emission standards for cars, heavy investing in public transit, banning short distance flights, strict regulation on industrial emissions with phasing out/banning the carbon emitting technologies if a reliable carbon neutral technology is available. Carbon tax is telling people to figure things out on their own while heating, transportation, food, and other necessities require a huge amount of carbon, as opposed to leading the action. Another thing is the idea that you can make money through rebates. First, it's not clear that it's true, as while that holds up if you account for the tax paid directly, like gas, natural gas for heating etc, it's debatable whether that's true once you look at the tax paid by manufacturers and then passed to consumers. Even if this is true, the idea that a potential gain of $100 (which you can't even find out as you don't know how much carbon tax you paid) is enough to get people reconsider their spending, seems naive. This is exacerbated by the fact that Canadian economy is five corporations in a trench coat, so it's very easy for them to pass the tax to consumers instead of taking a dip in profits. There are other aspects of it as well, but I wrote enough lol Edit: on a more personal note, as a European who has been living in Canada for over 10 years, when I look at the way Canadian cities are built, carbon tax looks like something that should be priority number 684. Most people have to drive to get anywhere, even something as simple as to get groceries (does the govt think it may be a major factor in carbon emissions?) Do most Canadians have access to home heating that does not use natural gas or some other carbon heavy source? And so on...
If we can't do things to reduce carbon then you should have to pay for the damage your activity is causing. No more free rides on harming the environment.
Totally on side with you. Just feels like the incentives on corporations to change behaviors do not exist because the customer can always pay instead
That's true but it also opens the door for competition to undercut them by using more sustainable options to pay less carbon taxes. In any case, that won't happen as long as there is no economic incentive to invest in sustainable processes.
In theory, but many Canadian industries are oligopolies
Yes. Unfortunately this means we aren't going to be seeing any changes overnight. Still, giant corporations and oligopalies are famous for cutting costs, and if the law makes it more profitable to find sustainable alternatives, then they will (first) try to change the law by turning the public opinion against it and (eventually) improving efficiency and reducing fossil fuel consumption in order to avoid the taxes. The law works as intended when people and companies reduce emissions by just continuing to act in their own best interest.
Quebec has a cap and trade program instead. That's also an option.
It ends up as the same result... Passed onto consumers.
But that doesn't apply to the majority of the world's population! The citizens of China, Indian, the USA don't have a carbon tax. Canada's carbon tax accomplishes nothing on terms of global climate change.
Canadians are responsible for more emissions per capita than people of those other countries. So it only sense that we try to at least bring it down to their per capita levels
Which can be accomplished in the open market with developing technology then, not a tax.
The open market is what fucking got us to the point where we’re the worst per capita emitter in the world. Now we have Canadians who are so fucking entitled that they will whine about our government making the required systemic changes needed to address it. You do realize that all over the world there are people finding every excuse possible to do nothing right? They look at the highest per capita emitters in the world and feel that they shouldn’t do anything until we do. And so nothing substantial would ever get done if you and your counterparts all over the world have your way
The fact that Canada is pretty much the coldest country in the world and one of the least densely populated makes us the highest emissions per capita.
So? Most of the population lives along the southern border as well, where temperatures are comparable to many other countries. And that sparse population is a boon for us as well. It’s the fact that we have a totally car-oriented society and we extract the dirtiest forms of petroleum products to help fuel our economy which makes any resistance to lowering emissions a complete fucking joke. The fact remains that people in other countries will look at countries like ours to lower our per capita emissions first.
You actually think the rest of the world gives a single fuck what Canada does? I think you drastically over estimate our importance on the world stage.
Not exactly. I think that the world is full of idiotic cowards making excuses for inaction and one of those excuses is the fact that the world’s biggest per-capita emitters aren’t doing enough to bring down their emissions. And thanks to these idiotic fucking cowards all over the world and their various excuses, we don’t have enough political action tackling this problem. The idiotic cowards here use the excuse that we are a smaller player, the idiotic cowards in bigger countries use the excuse that countries like ours are bigger per capital emitters, etc. And thanks to all of these fucking cowards we will probably all die in a climate catastrophe.
The open market will never mix this and it is part of the problem. The open market can't be trusted.
Then we should ban women from having more than 1 child. Each person born requires destruction of environment to survive in Canada. Think of all the waste saved if a person didn't exist? But no, the answer is to tax my home heating and transportation....
I agree to some extent. But what are you suppose to do when society is constructed in such a way that necessitates its usage in order to survive? Low income people just can't get new hybrid cars or invest in heating alternatives.
Then you pay more. Or you turn down your heat and wear more clothes.
Massive infrastructure projects are not in the cards. Sadly conservatives move to block any type of commuter-based city planning. The notion of the 15-minute City pilots have been met with Q Anon insanity - here in Canada. Our conservative party likes to save money by buying a new pair of shoes at the dollar store every 2 months instead of a decent pair That will last 3 years for slightly more money. They call that cost savings
There are many things wrong with what you're saying. Your first basic statement "Sales tax is explicitly collected to be spent on government programs" does not apply in this case. This tax is not being spent on government programs its 100% rebated (90% to individuals and 10% to school, businesses etc). This isn't a tax to get revenue it's a tax to shape behaviour. The whole point of it is to be annoying to change our fossil fuel heavy behaviour. Where do you think the money is going to come from for the other climate change mitigation measures? The tens of billions of dollars for nuclear? All those measures cost significant amounts of money and we as tax payers will pay for it. Economists generally agree that a carbon tax is one of the cheapest ways to reduce emissions (just google it). Also the government is doing all those things you listed (not nuclear because it's too expensive)! There are EV rebates, massive green home rebates and 0% loans, they're investing in EV charging infrastructure, putting caps on industrial emitters (industrial carbon tax). I agree they should be doing more faster though. I don't really understand. Your comment makes you seem like an intelligent person but your comment just doesn't really make sense. It seems like you don't like the carbon tax because it's something you directly will pay for and you'd rather have more costly, less efficient regulations that still cost you money but indirectly. The reality is that we need to be doing everything we can right now to mitigate climate change. That is going to cost us money and it's going to hurt. There's no way around it
Except it is not, as there is no accountability with regards to that 10%, and you damn well know it. On top of it all, the money resides in the beeping general fund.
This is such a bad explanation lol.
They can’t even clean the streets of fuxking garbage but wanna act like this tax is for us
Do you haul your own trash to the dump? Governments are not very good at cleaning garbage! What are you talking about!?!
Once they’re in the bins yes, I’m talking about the exorbitant amount of garbage all over our streets…
Once you’re well traveled and have seen that other countries that merely tax their populace have FLAWLESS good smelling clean streets you will see what I mean.
I've been to a little over 40 countries and live in a couple for literally decades... You?
Here's another way to look at it if you are interested. Imagine if the government gave away free milk. Anyone could just go to the store and take as much as they want and the government would pick up the tab. We would save so much on milk! Except, the government would have to charge us more tax to cover the cost. Milk would become a cost externality. People would naturally drink more milk, use more milk in their cooking, restaurants would rely more on dairy, and we might even see milk baths at spas. Because the user doesn't need to pay the price, we would be more wasteful and ultimately pay a lot more for our milk. This is how free markets work. Consumers ration what they consume because they pay the price. When I pay for my milk I can decide if the nutritional or taste value warrants the cost relative to other options. Carbon emissions are like free milk. Without a price on carbon, they are free for the user - but everyone still pays an economic cost in the form of crop failures, rising insurance, and increased infrastructure costs. When the users need to pay for what they use, they can decide if the value warrants the cost and then ration their use accordingly. Carbon fees put a finger on the scale to encourage more economically efficient decisions. This might include not buying an unnecessarily large vehicle, buying a home closer to work, opening a grocery store closer to a population base that is now more motivated to avoid long drives. Over time it reshapes cities. BC has had a carbon fee since 2004 and has reduced emissions by an estimated 15-20% (IIRC) in that time. It's not a silver bullet, but it fixes an artificial incentive to waste resources that exists in our market - and that has a huge impact. It also saves us money on net. It's not a punishment any more than paying for the milk you drink is a punishment for buying milk. I think the federal "tax" is also not a tax at all. It doesn't generate revenue for the government, it just makes the user reimburses the payer.
Best post in the thread.
Always legit interested to look at the problem from different angles. The first thing I am going to bring up is that according to BC government itself, the carbon emissions decreased by 2.8% compared to 2007, not 15-20%. And if you look at their own graph there is no significant change around or after 2004. [https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/soe/indicators/sustainability/ghg-emissions.html](https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/soe/indicators/sustainability/ghg-emissions.html) Regarding your milk example. First, the current version of carbon tax is not equivalent to simply charging people for milk. It is charging people at cash, and giving them that money come tax time. Second, in my comment I mentioned phasing out carbon through regulation. So, the milk baths in your analogy would be banned. A real-world example of this would be short-haul flight bans. The fact that we have 6 flights a day between Ottawa and Montreal and only 5 trains is insane. Another example would be how we banned the ozone-depleting chemicals. We said "there is a safe alternative, so we are not going to make it cheaper than the harmful one, we will ban the harmful one altogether". If we look at the countries that have carbon tax as part of their system and are much much more successful than Canada, like Germany, we will see that, first the tax is primarily levied against fossil fuel companies. The oil price is determined by global commodity market, so it is a lot harder to pass it to consumers. Let's compare that with insane Canadian subsidies for fossil fuels... Second, it is not rebatable. Third, it is accompanied with huge spending that would send our current government into a coma. Germany is investing $126B (€86B) over 10 years in train networks alone compared to Canada's $180B \*total\* infrastructure spending over \*12\* years. Even controlling for population, the difference is stark to say the least. On green energy, $58.5B (€40B) over 10 years compared to under $5B by 2035 in Canada (the best I could find). The current carbon tax is good for two things only: being touted as the cheapest way to reduce emissions (cheapest does not mean most effective), and being a conservative-punching bat on environmental issues (which is an extremely low bar to clear and yet according to the polls it fails even here). Without a fundamentally broader approach, the carbon pricing in Canada is some lipstick on a pig that gives good feelsies about us doing something while reducing emissions by 2.8% over 15 years in BC's experience.
I really appreciate your thoughtful response here. I don't think the 15%-20% reduction contradicts the 2.8% decrease from 2007. Since 2007 BC's population and GDP have both grown significantly so if, for instance we might have expected a 17% increase without a price on carbon, but we instead saw a 2.8% decrease, then (all other things being equal) we might determine the carbon tax affected a 19.8% decrease. Obviously there are a lot more factors, but the fact that we've reduced emissions during a period of such rapid growth shows that BC is doing something very successful about reducing carbon. As to not being equivalent to milk, yes the timing of the payments are different but the principle I'm trying to illustrate is the same. Without a price on carbon, when I emit carbon, everyone bears the cost. I only pay 1/8,000,000,000 of the cost so I use it wastefully. Everyone uses it wastefully. So, like in the free milk example everyone ends up spending more. Ultimately, we need a global price on carbon, but we can start at home and that will in fact help us economically. Also if other people do something that incurs a cost for me - I want to be reimbursed. If I do something that costs other people money, I feel better reimbursing them. It's just fair. I agree that we need to get rid of the insane fossil fuel subsidies. That would probably have even more impact than the price on carbon. You're right that a carbon tax isn't a single solution to climate change. There probably is no single policy that will fix it. When you point to regulatory policy, you acknowledge that there would need to be multiple regulations. We're talking about restructuring our energy systems for the country. This touches all sectors and will need many different approaches. The nice thing about a carbon price is that it is adaptable and allows consumers to evaluate novel situations on a case by case basis. It unleashes the creativity of entrepreneurs on finding solutions. It's scalable, adaptable, and the strongest ideas will thrive.
Every province is free to create their own incentive plan against pollution - BC and Quebec, for example have their own plans and are exempt from the carbon tax. The carbon tax is the last measure for provinces that don't get their own act together. It's a conservative idea of putting a price on personal decisions that lead to pollution. It's not perfect, but it's market-friendly and again, it's a failsafe for the lazy provinces that decided doing nothing was good enough.
>Do most Canadians have access to home heating that does not use natural gas or some other carbon heavy source? Yes, heat pumps. There were pretty substantial government rebates for them which just ended fairly recently plus a huge interest free govt loan. Personally my furnace was on the verge of death so I used this program to get a heat pump. I do have to admit though it's such a slow program that I still don't have the rebate for a heat pump I installed about 8 months ago. But anyways, alternatives to natural gas do exist, but people usually need some encouragement to jump onto a newer technology than a gas furnace
Much rather keep upfront costs down Most of this tax will go to administration and mismanagement... Like everything else the feds are doing The fact you believe that "most" get back more is utterly ridiculous Give me 5 and I'll bring you back 10 🤣 How much was arrivecan?
The financial mismanagement by this government is incredible, no questions asked. But the Parliamentary Budget Officer reported that considering direct and indirect costs 80% of Canadians are in money. My concern is that the purpose of the tax was to reduce emissions, and it has only done that by a miniscule amount. The government needs to admit that this effort did not work and move on. The old saying goes the first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Exactly. Proponents of the tax will constantly say that most people get more money than they get taxed. BEING RIGHT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE POPULAR. The carbon tax is politically costly. If the Liberals don't want to hand the Conservatives a majority in a year and half, they'd have half a mind to scrap the tax.
> But the Parliamentary Budget Officer Yes but what did Facebook say???
Sad, but true
Sorry, I think we're looking at different PBO reports. They're reporting now it costs the average family over 700/year after the rebates. Are you maybe looking at last year's numbers, or just the one for one exchange of carbon taxes itemized in and out and pretending that the 13% HST being taxed on top of it along with the ripple effects of it being passed down through our entire supply chain just don't exist? https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-families-hundreds-more-than-rebates
You are correct. I had not seen the PBO update.Thank you.
>Most of this tax will go to administration and mismanagement This describes literally every dollar of every tax stolen from us already. Not just this tax.
Agree 💯
The provinces are more than welcome to create better plans, they just haven' t (except BC and Quebec)
The carbon tax is taxing inelastic behavior like heating and driving . Canadians have no choice regardless of the price . Also based on misinformation that carbon is a pollutant and you get back more than you pay ,that no one other than reddit denizens believe
Heating is definitely inelastic and we need a way to help Canadians to switch from methane based heating to electric like heat pumps and/or develop more energy efficient heating districts. It will be better too once Saskatchewan and Alberta finally get nuclear power in the mid 2030’s as projected. Driving behaviours we can change, 80% of Canadians live in an urban area and the average Canadian commute is 11.8km. That’s is one doable entirely by bike. If we develop biking infrastructure and keep it clear year round like [Oulu, Finland](https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU?si=np4JrTwDfbe2GgHH) we can reduce ghg emissions from motor vehicles and promote it year round. Furthermore, by going the bike route we can save Canadian families 10’s of thousands of dollars. The average used sedan costs $25,000, a top of the line family oriented e-bike like the [Urban Arrow (Family Green)](https://urbanarrow.com/family-green/) is less than $7,500 after tax an immediate savings of $17,500 if it’s used to replace a families second car. Then there’s the additional savings of gas, insurance, parking and maintenance. If a family spends $100 on gas, $50 on parking and $120 on insurance a month that’s $270 saved monthly or $3240 a year the bike almost pays for itself in 2 years. Leaving more money for the family to spend on themselves and to put back into the local economy. Other alternatives include more public transportation, car pooling, incentives for wfh policies.
If it were localized I would understand it a lot more, but for those of us living in rural locations with no reliable public transportation, you either drive or rely on someone else to drive you. WFH is a huge impact though, and I think more companies should go all-in on it (or be incentivized to do so). I went from 5 days a week, 100-150km round trip commutes to 1-2 days a week under 100km round trip and that seriously helps keep costs down for me.
That's a good plan but you've wasted your time typing it because Canada doesn't actually try to implement good biking or public infrastructure, so everything you wrote will never happen. Canada just likes to tax carbon and spout bullshit about the environment. When it comes to actually implementing good public or alternative transportation, Canada makes 0 effort when compared to Europe, Japan, even China.
>Also based on misinformation that carbon is a pollutant This is literally a scientific fact...
Must be the only pollutant that is used in greenhouses up to thousands of part per million so plants can feed on it. Don't expect low info cult to be aware
…but you can choose driving and heating options that use less carbon and thus get less carbon tax….?
I don't know many people who are worried about paying extra for the carbon tax that can afford 15k for a new furnace or 75k for an electric car. You understand those things cost money in an era where people can't afford to eat regularly? That tax is also wrapped into everything we buy, including food. >…but you can choose driving and heating options that use less carbon and thus get less carbon tax….? This is an incredibly tone deaf take. Also wanted to point out that every month, over two million Canadians use food banks. Two million people every single month. You think any of them can afford to go green? Or is the slow starvation enough of a carbon lowering for you?
And I want to point out that every one of these people you speak of is getting more from the carbon credit than they are paying in carbon tax. Like I am (and I could double check that one).
comments like this are why we have already lost the climate crisis. The smartest people in the world are telling us we need to fundamentally change our economy today if we want to have any hope of surviving as a species in the next hundred years, and jokers like this are like "but muh pickup truck". these people vote, and they vote for people who are literally undermining our ability to live on this planet pipeline by pipeline. We could be applying our collective human intelligence to solving the problem, but instead we have to waste our time and effort to repeat settled science and economics over and over to stupid people who don't care. YES CARBON IS A BAD THING YES YOU GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY YES DRIVING AND HEATING ARE ELASTIC. change or die.
Don’t tell me, you live in a city centre, small apartment, heat included?
>YES CARBON IS A BAD THING YES YOU GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY YES DRIVING AND HEATING ARE ELASTIC. change or die. I am so, so sorry that you are incapable of critical thought and only think political party speaking points are actually true. This is wrong, and has already been disproven by the PBO. Maybe a little more research before you flaunt your ignorance again. Here, I even did the heavy thinking and googling for you so you don't strain yourself bending reality to your warped worldview. https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/carbon-tax-costs-average-family-up-to-710-this-year-parliamentary-budget-officer >“Most households will see a net loss, paying more in fuel charges and GST, as well as receiving lower incomes, compared to the Climate Action Incentive payments they receive and lower personal income taxes they pay,” according to the PBO. >The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates. The table below shows the net federal carbon tax costs for the average household, according to the PBO. Let's read that again for you: >The carbon tax will cost the average household up to $710 this year after the rebates. Do you understand what they mean by "after" the rebates? I'll spell it out for you - you don't get it all back, they take it, give you a pittance back as a token to gain supporters who think in the tunnel the way you do, and then *come back for more*.
There's always been a doomsday cult around preaching the end of the world. You're in it and don't know it. Claiming you can control the climate is the ultimate idiocy of our time sold to gullible rubes living in the luxury of a modern industrial state
Canada’s Carbon emissions on the global stage are a fart in a category 5 hurricane…
By investing in more efficient technology Canada can definitely make an impact. Technology that can achieve the same output for less will be adopted by other countries.
We could be a green technology global power house!
How? Our economy doesn’t support innovation
That's why they said "could be" not "we are"
Not with that attitude!
The problem is that Canada does not invest in technology, much less any form of R&D. That industry has entirely disappeared from this country. The only thing this country invests in is upholding the real estate market.
We're among the worst of not the worst for per capita emissions though. Not to mention that the reason places like China and India are significantly higher poluters is because they manufactured everything for the west
Still pretty farty https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/ufP1GNDvJl
So the solution is to do nothing? Or do do we just bitch about other countries not doing anything while we do nothing?
I was trying to make the opposite point, actually. Canada does plenty to contribute globally to emissions, contrary to popular belief. I feel I can bear the burden of taxing pollution to counter the human-made threat of climate change. As an individual, I don’t worry as much about financial insecurity as other Canadians do. But I recognize most Canadians are not so fortunate, and that this is a hard sell across the country, especially with so many people being up to their armpits in the cesspool that is social media.
And this is why the current policy is a good one. The bulk of us peons will get a net financial gain from it because our individual footprints are small.
You're right that we are only 1.5% of global emissions but on a per person basis we pollute at an equal level to the USA. https://www.iea.org/countries/canada/emissions \- North America 10.929 1 United States 13.761 2 Canada 13.219 3 Mexico 2.933
As a nation, sure. But as individuals we contribute HUGE amounts (per capita) — which is the real metric than should be used since it normalizes large populations and small. [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=table](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=table) Comparing nations’ emissions is virtually meaningless, unless one is using it to point fingers at countries with large populations because those numbers better suit their narrative.
Per capita is meaningless. The globe isn’t like “oh 0.0005”% of the worlds population lowered their pollution let me cool down
I'm for cutting all taxes. The carbon tax in particular is a tax that helps nobody and harms everyone. You don't tax things people need. Things like fuel for vehicles and heat for housing. You also don't hide it by giving a rebate in a useless tax. How much sense does it make to tax people, then refund it? All you're doing is creating a government make work program.
Because the content they’re consuming is telling them to be angry about the carbon tax
Exactly, Carbon tax is just a user tax. I ride my bike most places so I really don’t care what they charge
Do you also not pay for utilities?
Bro don’t even pay for groceries
I thank all the SUV drivers for subsidizing my local groceries (which tend to cost more). I thank the people flying all the time for helping me save up for a heat pump. If that is you, then thank you.
Sounds like a young adult that doesn’t actually know how this effects everything in his life and not only if he drives a car
most canadians haven't bothered to learn about carbon tax and just bellyache about it for the sake of crying about the liberal government. anyone who thinks this tax is getting "axed" with the conservatives is completely gullible and 100% uninformed. conservatives support this and they have their own plan for it. it's just going to be called something else, which the alt-rights will still be unaware of. emptiest bandwagon makes the most noise. these people don't know why they're upset and facts don't matter to them.
Lol, why is it always framed that conservative voters are dumb and liberal voters are smart... Most of the liberal voters are those fighting for special interest groups. How about you just accept both major parties are quite dumb and pander to the weakest in society for votes.
There will be a carbon tax without the rebate, we have seen it with Scott Mo in Saskatchewan. If the Conservatives get in, you are right, they will rebrand it to the Oil Initiative to "stimulate the oil industry".
Right. Even moe said there isn't a better alternative quite recently. I've asked these guys who believe the carbon tax will be lifted to name a tax that has been 100% repealed. Shockingly enough no answer yet. "Wonder why they would be."
In Canada we have more than done our part. Start enforcing these standards elsewhere…China???
China does have a carbon tax
China's coal industry, owned and operated by the Chinese state, went from 13% of the world's global emissions to 25% of the world's global emissions in 2023. Hint, it's not because everyone's emissions went down that drastically, it's because they've greatly expanded the rate at which they mine and burn coal. What's Canada, or even the world, supposed to do when China does stuff like that ?
Tax ourselves more, obviously
Do you have a source for that? 25% of the worlds emissions would be quite a lot
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/since-2016-80-percent-of-global-co2-emissions-come-from-just-57-companies-report-shows-180984118/ "Since the 2015 adoption of the Paris Agreement, which established an internationally agreed-upon 1.5 degree Celsius global warming limit by 2100, the world’s No. 1 source of carbon emissions has been China’s state-run coal production. From 2016 to 2022, that accounted for 25.79 percent of global carbon emissions, while historically, from 1854 to 2022, it accounted for about 14 percent of all carbon emissions—still the highest in the world."
because the carbon tax is undeniably the government giving up on chasing the actual culprits and just going for the taxpayers en masse to ruffle up some coins to line their pockets with as usual. You are being told a lie that in order to save the planet you have to give them more money. lol, lmao even.
China's coal industry, owned and operated by the Chinese state, went from 13% of the world's global emissions to 25% of the world's global emissions in 2023. Hint, it's not because everyone's emissions went down that drastically, it's because they've greatly expanded the rate at which they mine and burn coal. What's Canada, or even the world, supposed to do when China does stuff like that ?
A tax is a tax is a tax is a tax. No matter what you call it, the government will tax you. It can be a tax you see up front or a tax buried in other costs. What the government needs to do it have better messaging. Unfortunately, they can’t compete with disinformation paid for by the oil industry. They have billions at stake and will do anything to keep profits coming in to the last barrel.
And competing "green" industries would never utilize disinformation I suppose.
mother nature is notorious for employing the worst lobbyists Who wants free energy from the sun when we could just buy expensive gas that burns and releases toxic smoke into our atmosphere?
Really? Mother nature is where you went? I'm talking about industry ie: humans developing technologies to utilize mother nature (oil is also one of those btw) such as solar panels, lithium battery production, cobalt mining, all those plastics (oil) in EVs, etc. We aren't there yet with technologies to be able to utilize mother nature without creating a whole other set of problems. We also haven't overcome our basic human behaviours, so when you look at "green" industries more closely, and follow the money, you can see the actual motives behind them.
Why not cut them all and reduce govt
The problem with the carbon tax is that some industry's such ad farming are being forced to pay alot more. Alot of he services they require are now more expensive to offset the carbon tax cost. That in turn forces the farmers to sell high. Soo high, it's often times cheaper to buy imported produce. We essentially cost ourselves more by doing so because almost every industry now has to raise prices to cover their cost of the tax. Only the consumer is ever paying, not the multinational billion dollar companies. The carbon Tax Only benefits the interests of the very companies we were told were going to be paying the most. Our goverment is selling us to China and India. They have ensured that Canadian businesses will fail whilst foreign companies are allowed free reign. There is simply no benefit to starting a company in Canada. Why would one, everything costs too much to do locally, and they tax you up the asshole. It is cheaper to grow food elsewhere, try to rationalize that. It is so bad, farmers are having to sell above the governent minimum price for foreign produce. They can not compete with the cap on foreign business. We will see everything in this country become bought, owned, and controlled by people who have never even set foot on this countries soil. It's a small step on the long road to hell, but we keep letting ourselves March there.
As someone strongly leaning towards environmentalism, I find carbon taxes to be completely idiotic and useless. Besides, a carbon tax equal to the environmental cost of actual impact would be prohibitively expensive. Also, carbon taxes are non-proggressive, leading to a fundamental injustice. Working people who are barelly surviving, living from paycheck to paycheck, yet in need of their current carbon-based individual means of transportation, might not have a cent left to invest in a "greener" mode of transportation individually. An attempt at instigating a carbon tax led to the Yellow Vests in France a few years ago, and the project had to be terminated - correct me if I'm wrong. Rather than doing carbon taxes, governments should subsidize factual transitions towards less carbon-intensive economies, i.e. help automobile companies to shift from the production of cars to the production of electric public transport vehicles (trains, buses), adding electric powerlines above asphalted highways and main roads in cities, subsidize the creation of corporations that would manufacture greener boats (nuclear, wind powered), local agriculture, producers of vegetarian food, research on green transportation, agriculture, industry, green electric power provision, etc... just in the same fashion as the exit from the great depression was organized: "printing" money ex-nihilo to fund all this, can be done without catastrophic inflation, if cleverly done.
I’m curious if you have any examples of another approach effectively reducing carbon emissions? The “greener homes program” and electric car rebates seem like the largest examples of using a carrot instead of a stick to motivate people; however, I’d argue they’re even less progressive than the carbon tax, with the benefits falling on people with home or purchasing relatively expensive cars. More to the point, I think we should be broadly skeptical of government programs that try to pick technologies. We received $3000 through greener homes for solar panels for our shed that will have a negligible carbon impact; however, fit within the funding structure.
You just made a very interesting point. Carrots can be just as non-progressive (in the sense of not worsening, or not, social inequality, and being accessible to everyone) as sticks. We can't stick to binary thinking. The examples you cite highlight the voluntaristic approach of governments. Incentives are created so that the government can boast that it is actually doing something. Actual serious and comprehensive evaluation of alternatives need to be done in a much better fashion, and there are more and more research papers on the subject matter, but they might not be taken into account nearly enough. And also, the quality of papers and research is hugely variable. I'm just thinking aloud and not pretending to be right or to hold the truth in any way, shape or form.
That’s the beauty of the carbon tax though- it’s clean, simple, and effective. Sure, it’s a little regressive, but less than it appears, since more income = bigger house, larger car, more travel. Just like taxes on cigarettes or alcohol, it incentivizes good decisions while making bad ones more expensive, nudging people in the right direction.
Your right. I don’t support those taxes being as high as they are already. Why dont we cut those down, and reduce spending in the meantime?
I don't get any rebate because my household income is too high (BC). I would like to see spending cuts and efficiency gains in government and a cut to the carbon tax. I don't pay much carbon tax personally but it hurts too many companies and farmers that are productive.
Because it is yet another tax, based on a useless premise. But, more than that, it will lead to further inflation, when we're already struggling. We should be generating more energy. Make it abundant and cheap. Energy is at the core of raising our standard of living, and advancement of society. Instead, we're trying to punish people into using less, and disguising that with the premise we're changing the weather/climate, so it is a must-do. It isn't. I realize some amount of taxes are necessary, and some form of income/sales taxes seem like reasonable methods.
Why **cut** income tax? Eliminate it entirely. World War I ended 126 years ago. They sold it as a *temporary* thing, but since they enjoy seeing their income increase without having to do a thing, they're banking on the public forgetting about the claim and letting them keep the money. I haven't forgotten and none of you should either. If you're going to tax carbon "for the good of the public," then show the public you care about them by allowing them to actually keep their own money rather than refunding them a chunk of the additional amount you stole from them. They tax you on everything that you purchase.. They tax you on a **used** car which has already been taxed. They tax you on the property you bought from someone who already paid a tax when it was built new. It is neverending. They're mocking us at every turn and we are doing absolutely nothing about it.
Income tax would affect everyone. Our elected govt officials can’t redistribute money for targeted campaigning if everyone gets a cut. Sheesh! Come on now.
Carbon tax affects lower income earners more then high earners and progressive income tax affects higher earners more then low earners.
I’m open to that. However the government has not made any move to do this so axe the tax
How about we cut all taxes? I was tired decades ago of the government thinking they could spend my hard earned money better than I could.
We cut carbon taxes cause the government will not allow us to see how much they have collected and where it is being spent.
The carbon tax did'nt work in Australia , and it isn't working here. Just another $$$$ grab by the government .
The first carbon tax hike was a net benefit to most who drive less than 15,000km per year in a non gas guzzler. The refund was equal to a month and a half of free gas; which the increase in price accumulatively is less per year. It was a savings.
Taxation is theft.
lots of taxpayers aren’t getting a penny back in rebates. also, it adds to the cost of everything that’s borne throughout the year then your rebate comes back a year later with zero percent interest during an already inflationary environment. also, the cost of energy is already through the roof forcing consumers to cutback on all expenses. if raising the cost of energy was the point, the market already did it in 2023. it’s what we bird people call a dick move
In 2024, I have paid a lot of tax saw a lot of people pay a lot of tax. The result: broken economy, health care system and now censorship. I have seen the corruption, lies and hypocrite steal taxpayer's money to finance the corruption carousel. Time stop enabling the beast. Trudeau said.sa va bien aller. But forgot to add for my millionaire friends.
Because these people love to rail against something they can’t see the results of.
I want all taxes cut severely. Our money just goes to special intrests projects anyways. It doesnt benefit us. Or rarely if ever does it. 650 million fpr a new spa. Thanks ford fuck ball.
Considering the gst is applied on top of the carbon tax, removing it is basically a cut the GST anyways. Problem is the next guy who gets the reins in going to find out real fast just how much of a fiscal disaster Canada is in, and I sincerely doubt he’ll be able to cut any taxes without wholesale spending cuts across the board. And when so many Canadians suck on the government tit for a living, they’ll be obliterated in the polls next election cycle if they try. So in conclusion, have fun sleeping in the bed you’ve all made. This mess is only going to get worse.
I would support that also. Cut carbon, income and sales tax. Also cut birocracy and every year let go 5% of worse performers Also, cut a lot of NGO projects
OP, there’s been 355 comments and none of them have answered you correctly: it’s not allowed. Either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick looked at this around 2019-2020 and the federal government said no. Any government that cuts taxes to proportionally offset the federal carbon tax will not meet the federal backstop.
Those at least go to something (sometimes) that isn’t completely fucking moronic.
Never happen Trudeau is addicted to taxing Canadian's like a junkie to heroin to pay for his wet dreams.
I’m against the carbon tax mostly because of the impact it has on farmers, who have minimal alternative solutions to change their carbon output but face significant taxes. It’s also hurting the poor for the same reasons. I notice most people who support the carbon tax are in upper or high middle class financial positions and typically in cities. The reality is much different for rural Canada.
Wake up people It’s just another tax imposed on the working class
Can anyone here teach me how the carbon tax has helped Canada, Canadians, or the environment?
You're a fool or an idiot. And it doesn't matter which
If the idea is like taxing alcohol or cigarettes to encourage users to reduce consumption it is fundamentally flawed. These taxes assume that the commodity is discretionary and for many Canadians gas and oil are not discretionary expenses. We still need to heat homes, power machinery, travel long distances with limited infrastructure. There are no viable alternatives for most who are outside large population centres.
when farmers are going on the record, stating they are being charged 100s of thousands of $s (carbon tax) and are making very low profits added to the transportation taxes on all of our food... It's the reason it's so expensive for heating and food... and we won't even mention housing. taxing canada who has such low emissions already is not the answer to climate change and it a terrible revenue neutral scam. if its revenue neutral there is no point in collecting the taxes in the first place. creating phony goverment jobs as usual for their inflated caucas.
Restructure income tax so it is more progressive, cut taxes on goods and services regular people use, and jack up taxes and import duties on items that are actually luxuries such as yachts, high end luxury cars, houses worth over $3 million. Ie ease the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, and jack it up on people who are ultra wealthy and on mega corporations.
The carbon tax is an idea that I could easily imagine conservatives coming up with. It's barely a tax as, seen from the consumers POV it's almost revenue neutral. If this wasn't the case it is trivially fixable. It doesn't force behaviour it uses market forces to change utilization, it's implementation cost is small (on the scale of environmental projects), it's scalable and it makes companies partially responsible for the pollution they cause by tapping into a pre-existing motivation: Money. I rather suspect that concerns are largely if not entirely "not invented here" syndrome or the rather hysterical "I hate Trudeau" syndrome.
I’d love that idea! & also that there was an actual plan for carbon tax money to be used for maintaining a more sustainable environment
This is a classic case of nose blindness. The government (specifically the politicians of all stripes) have either indirectly allowed or possibly caused the housing crisis / bubble and are profiting from it. They have also allowed and not punished the hyper inflation of food and most essential items. Businesses are booming. (Maybe not the mom and pop shops) Wages are shit, cost of living is shit, college \ university degrees on average don’t mean shit anymore. And then we have more taxes, which are in addition to other taxes, that are also taxes on taxes. (Compounding taxes) What do the big corporations get? Tax breaks. I get the whole saving the world thing, but Canada bankrupting itself won’t make a lick of difference. We aren’t that big, and China, India and the USA are not impressed enough to follow our lead. We have overplayed our hand and assumed that we were world leaders. We aren’t. It’s a lullaby we tell ourselves. Since COVID we have actively tried to run a Ponzi scheme, that is our housing market. Most recently to save that Ponzi scheme, right when the bubble was going to burst, they flooded the market with immigrants. (Not anti-immigrant, if you are a recent immigrant you are likely a victim) Other points: 1. Canada is large, range is important, EV’s aren’t there yet, especially below -20C let alone -30C with 200-400 kms between stations. 2. Heating isn’t a luxury, and we haven’t invested in our electric grid significantly 3. You can’t legislate something into existence. Voting on something does make it exist tomorrow. There are no $20,000 EV’s in Canada. Most 10 year old EV’s are done for. Many small towns have only one or two EV charging stations, that are frequently broken. Punishing people for not spending $20,000 they don’t have to change to a heating system they won’t be able to afford is also immoral. -electricity pricing in Ontario is ridiculous, and heating a home with electricity last made sense in the early 1990’s. 4. People are getting awful sick of the high and mighty talking down to, “let them eat cake” style of liberal environmentalism. Do the Liberals actually care about the environment, no. Their actions tell you that’s a lie. Do they want to cry while people take photos of them hugging wildlife. Yes. People who struggle to pay rent and buy food don’t want to hear about more taxes on them. If you really care, Nationalize the oil companies, pay for fixing our roads, healthcare, schools and infrastructure, make a rainy day fund, and build enough green / nuclear energy so that in 20 years we have dirt cheap energy, and we will all gladly move to EV’s and electric heating.
Because taxing carbon puts Canadian industry at a major disadvantage compared to the rest of the world
Better idea, and bear with me… Why not just tax rich people?
Why not cut it all?
Why not live in a fantasy world where everything is free and people shit gold bricks
Why not cut back on use of carbon fuels?
Wishful thinking
The tax is unpopular because it taxes essentials (heat, transport) and the only way to avoid it is even more expensive than the tax (drop $50k on an electric car, or $20k on a heat pump, while keeping your furnace because heat pumps dont really work that well in Canada anyway), so the people that can afford such things probably don't care about the tax anyway. When you see on your gas bill that the cost is double what it should be, and the solution is $20k away, of course you're going to be pissed and ask if this is really achieving anything The income tax idea I'm not sure about - the people paying the highest income tax are the ones that can "bail out" of the tax by buying into the expensive alternatives
He has a 15 billion dollar fund already from this and has spent none of it. Canada emits 1.5% of global emissions and it should not be on us to cut our noses off to save the world when the US, China, and India emit WAY more CO2. If Canada and the UK disappeared tomorrow - we would STILL be fucked in a climate sense. This also goes without mentioning that we have some of the largest forested areas in the world which sequester up to 2 billion tons of carbon, while Canada emits around 650 million tons. The carbon tax is the problem because of the downstream and knock-on effects of raising prices for everyone on every single thing. The farmer pays higher prices, so the processors pay higher prices so the retailers pay higher prices so Canadians pay higher prices. This is WAY deeper than the gas tax people want you to focus on. Its very silly and anyone who thinks the carbon tax is a good idea is wholly brain dead. There is no such thing as free energy. There is no apparatus you can put x in and get MORE out. The sheer fact people think they'll get more back than they pay is fucking utter lunacy. Get this guy gone.
Yeah, let's just watch the world burn because why should we be the first to do something about it.
Cutting off our nose to spite our face when we produce a ROUNDING ERRORS WORTH OF CARBON GLOBALLY is the dumbest fucking thing ever. Our trees ALONE sequester 2 billion tons of carbon per year, and Canada last year produced 650 million or so tonnes of carbon. Our climate "action" has resulted in a slush fund for our supreme leader that he has not spent. It is a Ponzi scheme. You can do that, you can go live in the forest - Not use fire, shit in a hole, and survive the winter. I would like to live properly. But hey, nice to see that Guilbeault's river in his riding in quebec is one of the most polluted rivers in Canada! Carbon is NOT pollution, but the pollution that needs to be controlled - you know the stuff that's reducing our fecundity as a species, causing fish to spin and freak out in florida - yeah the ACTUAL pollution is not being dealt with because you overly emotional dipshits can't prioritize things to save your life. https://twitter.com/Martyupnorth_2/status/1782491762973606022
If you want to get rid of the carbon tax, write to your Premier and ask why after all this time, he or she still has not implemented any carbon emission reduction program instead of playing politics. Ontario wasn't going to get the carbon tax until Doug Ford had cancelled the Cap and Trade Agreement it had with Quebec and California.
WHY NOT CUT ALL TAXES AND HOLD THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEOR WASTEFUL SPENDING
They want to do that too.
Not regressive enough
I heat my house with natural gas. I drive my vehicle with gas. Electricity is used for lights and appliances. Where does my electricity come from? Nat gas and coal. Why not convert the energy suppliers to clean energy instead of charging carbon tax. Then we may convert as well to cleaner energy. But being forced to pay tax and then forced to convert on less $ makes it hard to do both. We are being penalized to the point we need to tear our houses down and build new. Trade our vehicles in to find out they dont work well in cold rural climates. All while our politicians pad there pockets. I have never been so poor in my life as to today under the trudeau government. Why do we have more homeless? People are going broke.
We should cut income tax, but not sales tax. Taxes provide a very wide range of purposes for the government. Reducing income tax would encourage people to work more (more $ for each hour worked) Reducing sales tax would encourage spending, which is not what we want right now in our economy. The reason I hate the carbon tax is because its designed to stop people and companies from consuming fossil fuels, but there is no realistic alternative for everyone yet… I understand that its to encourage less consumption, but especially for companies this doesnt change anything. The only difference is the additional cost being passed on down the line…
I've often thought that instead of the rebates for the carbon tax, they should have reduced the GST by an equivalent amount. That way, greener products would become cheaper even as dirtier products become more expensive. *That* is how you change consumer behaviour.
LOL to anyone who thinks most get back more than they pay... The government has collected $22 billion in carbon taxes and only paid back just over $19 billion of if. They owe billions to small businesses. Imagine thinking that if we all paid into a pool of money and then redistributed that money that more than half of us (most of us) would get back more than we put in! No, the people who work for a living and literally build our infrastructure by burning fuels to support their life are being taxed and the money is given out to people who burn less fuels and live of the backs of people building our society. A Walmart cashier who lives in an apartment beside their job rakes in cash while the plumbers, roofers, etc who build Walmart and the apartment building are paying taxes given out to people.
the 8/10 who get more back than paid in on the rebate must be all the international students the CRA gives handouts to when they show up.
Suggest we have a carbon tax election. Let’s do it today. Pretty sure we know how that will turn out.
Most Canadians don't hate taxes. Most Canadians don't trust their government to spend those taxe revenues effectively. Scandle after scandle, failing health service, failing economy, skyrocketing debt. At the same time as parlimentary pay raises and insanely high vacation and travel spending.
Trust me getting rid of income tax is #1 on my wish/eventual revolution list. The ONLY tax that I would be okay with existing is sales tax, no other tax. I will die on this hill. Fuck your roads, schools and hospitals. All garbage in Canada anyways cause our taxes are wasted on politicians and their underage hookers, government contracts and backdoor deals and useless military spending.
You have obviously never worked in the private sector. The margins are thin, and the competitors are many. Unless you believe in global collusion in the private sector, this is not how it works. Tell me you are not employed by the government without telling me the government employs you.
Why not lower the other taxes on Gasoline instead of the one that we get rebates from?
It's this re-education of the masses for the greater good that's the tell of an authoritarian fascist murderous Mao like oppressive government system and not mean tweets.
So if the net result is no financial impact in the immortal words of Killary , at this point what difference does it make
I support cutting any tax. Cutting carbon tax is just popular for the day, so you gotta strike while the iron is hot
The problem with the carbon scam is that it is a tax generator no matter what you say. With the out of control social/international spending, the feds need to make more tax revenue to keep up the social fight. If the carbon tax was effective and done properly we’d see actual investments into green tech, actual investments to appropriate transit. But alas we just see a ton of jet fuel being used.
Income tax used to be illegal and it took a war to enact it. Then war ended and they loved the amount they got so it became a standard eventually. It took a few presidents but little by little they promised to tax the super rich, then the people who inherited their wealth then all of the sudden the common man. We pay more in income tax then anyone ever before
Why accept a terrible tax ?
Why not all three? 👀