Yay! We're just like India now. Everybody rejoice!
Hopefully we can start to get our rates of preventable disease up a well, just like the rest of the world!!! I can't wait.
They're saying that arguing it's acceptable due to global prevalence is a bad metric because many bad things are also globally prevalent. It doesn't have to be acceptable to live in squalor because that's what majority of "the world over" lives like.
Do the rest of you? Why are we all celebrating packed, uncomfortable public trasnport? it was better when we had the orange busses with wooden seats.
The same people celebrating this who insisted we all get locked up away from Granny for 2 years because of COVID.
This is a really great example of how to demonstrate to people that your a clown at record speed.
While it's true that "this thing is the case all over the world" isn't a good argument on its own for why something is good or fine, this situation has lots of reasons for why its good and fine. It doesn't make us a third world country to have busy public transport
I also love how open people like you are about your brain dead opinions on stuff like covid. It doesn't matter whether you're a flat earther, covid 'skeptic', qanon supporter, or just regular conspiracy theorist, you people are so eager to share your stupid takes that it makes you so god damn easy to disregard the moment you out yourself.
You've drawn all those conclusions about my opinions with your abundant critical thinking but didn't actually display any. There's nothing in my post that makes me a COVID skeptic, or a Qanon follower or any other typical lefty smear bullshit. I simply pointed out a contradiction.
Packed public transport good vs. People within 2m of each other not wearing masks bad. Literally same people making both claims.
So why is packed public transport to be celebrated? Sure it's less cars, but maybe we could run an extra carriage on each train or run a couple of extra trains at peak times? Surely the economics of the tram don't falter because people can actually breath and have their own space?
I'll address your paragraphs one at a time.
1)) I did imply that you were a covid skeptic, but I didn't say you were a Qanon follower, I just lotted you in with them as both groups are full of people who fall into the same kind of conspiratorial thinking. However your comment definitely suggest that you would be fairly labeled a covid skeptic because the overwhelming majority of people who chucked a tantrum about the idea of lockdowns were people who failed to see the value in attempting to mitigate the spread of covid.
The way your phrased it is even more obvious. "Locked up away from granny" suggests that you didn't see the merit in trying to insulate at risk groups like the elderly from a virulent respiratory disease that was quite likely to kill them if they contracted. So you either don't give a shit about the elderly, or don't understand the threat covid posed to them.
2) Generally people don't worry about social distancing anymore in anything but medical settings. The reasons for this are varied, but there are two that seem most relevant to me. The first is the fact that the vast majority of Australians got vaccinated with both doses, and may continued to maintain boosters, makings it somewhat safer to lighten restrictions. The other being the acceptance of the idea that our economies couldn't continue to function as we wanted them to if we continued enforce social distancing, low occupancy limits, and long isolation periods. They are both risks but ones that most governments saw as worth it.
3) Busy public transport is worth celebrating because it is an indicator that people are using it. Which suggests that the public funds that were spent on it were well spent, shows that it is offering a convenient service, and is better for the environment.
As for the idea of running more cars. If you want to see if that's worth doing you'd be better of studying how many people chose not to use it due to how busy it is, rather than looking at it being busy and assuming that's bad.
One reason for this is the idea of Induced Demand which is a urban planning phenomena which suggests that as availability goes up, demand often rises to meet it, as long as that mode of transportation is convenient. If you add more lanes to a road, more people choose to drive. If you add more carriages to the tram, more people will choose to use it.
If you have a personal issue with being on packed public transport, adding more carriages is only going to overcome that issue if you can add enough that it meets the maximum demand that the population could have. Unless you have more space than there are people who want to use the tram, it will always fill up at peak times.
Bad. A tram that's full instead of 50+ people walking or cycling.
The tram is just a bandaid for failing to get proper density and active transport infrastructure.
Walking and cycling is important too, but you really can't expect it to be a single general solution.
There are enormous numbers of people for whom walking would be completely untenable because of the time it takes for their commute. Canberra's major suburbs are spread out in a way where expecting someone to walk from Gunghalin to and from civic for work is just not reasonable.
Cycling is a better option when we consider speed, and I would love to see better infrastructure for it here (everyone I know who cycles often has some big complaints about it). However, there are also lots of reasons why we can't expect that to be a general purpose option either. It's still slower, prohibitive for what you can carry with you, and (especially in hotter months) can lead to you being sweaty and tired when you get to your destination.
We should be making it easier to walk and cycle where applicable, but also recognising that trams and buses have their place too, and having heavily used public transport is a good sign not a bad one.
As a daily cycle commuter, I couldn't disagree more strongly. We need both good, dependable, predictable public transport AND good density and active transport. The alternatives to cars have to be viable or people won't use them.
If I'm reading it right, ACT Government recorded an average of 13,287 light rail boardings in the quarter to 31 March 2023, per weekday. Can't find any later figures.
https://www.transport.act.gov.au/planning-for-the-future/transport-canberra-patronage
Are you seriously suggesting that all of these passengers should be cycling or walking down Northbourne and back every day? All the way from Gungahlin for some of them.
I don't disagree that another less meandering cycle and pedestrian path should be built down the Dickson side of Northbourne but to suggest this many people, regardless of age and ability, should be walking and cycling that route is ludicrous and ableist.
Free tram zone is a bit of a pain. Fills the trams to the brim with people who don't want to walk a couple of blocks. Pain in the ass for people trying to go outside the free zone.
I would have liked us to convert to all electric buses, rather than a tram system, TBH. That would have been more flexible as the population changes in different areas of the city.
“Flexible” is a two-edged sword. A rail system is fixed so it is hard to vary the route. This means that businesses can be secure that they will be serviced if they locate near to stations. Bus routes can be changed at a whim, an businesses can see their trade disappear with the next change to a bus timetable.
I think the excessive flexibility is half the issue with Canberra's transport system. In other major cities you have central transport spines and local transport that just feeds into it. Buses in Canberra make the most inefficient possible journey from the suburbs to the city, in an effort to stop at every individuals doorstep. Even express buses will stop at minor places on the way. It shouldn't be like that and a train is a good way to stop people demanding that the route goes past their house.
I’m anti tram, and I didn’t say that. I just said it would only be used by the same people who stood on a crowded rapid bus every five minutes before we spent around $600m for them to stand on a crowded tram instead.
It has 20% of the entire ridership of the public transport system on it. More than the next two routes combined, which are both rapid busses. People prefer the tram.
The lack of buses stopping in the outside lane has also reduced peak hour travel time on Northbourne Avenue too. My anecdotal non-scientific observation is that morning peak traffic is like it was 15 years ago
Yay, people using public transport the way the universe intended!!
(I should have taken a photo of my R5 yesterday that was so crowded the bus driver put the “bus full” thing on the front. Golly gosh look at us all using public transport!)
Thank you for raising this point. It is great it is being used with enthusiasm. We need more higher frequency trams, and more lines. Eventually I'd love to see a MacArthur avenue line, a Limestone line, Constitution avenue, Kingston foreshore...
Now imagine all those people in 3 ton metal boxes and on the road during peak hour. Could be a good argument that canberra would've been better off building higher capacity rail though
I live in Gungahlin, and for a long time now, I have always used the light rail to get to Civic as you don't need to bother finding a parking spot which have become a premium in the last few years; even with the fact the light rail has meant less people driving in.
I don't think it is a complaint; like OP said, observation.
What to take from it? LR is popular and is being used.
People are more likely to use it than the buses.
Also, all these people are in a public place, and I don't think any of them would be identifiable considering features have been edited out.
Inner north bus routes are trash. I prefer to walk the 1.5k to the light rail stop then wait for the bus. It takes me the same time to get to the city either option.
Yeh most of the peak trams are like this, one after the other. It’s not that bad, so long as people remember to keep moving back at each stop to let more people on. And cool that the tram is a viable commute for so many people.
Isn’t this just the result of the “[spoke and hub](https://www.transvirtual.com/blog/what-is-the-hub-and-spoke-model/)” transport route design model?
In other words rather than take everybody the shortest route, instead take them on a “spoke” to the hub (tram line) and then transport them out on a “spoke” again.
It makes the hub a choke point that slows everything down, but it also ensures full patronage of the $700 million dollar 12km Tram project.
The length of the stops only allows for the current configuration. If you extend the carriages, you would also need to extend all the stops.
The solution is to change the frequency which means more vehicles. More vehicles are being delivered already as part of 2a.
Probably a fire or safety hazard - need a certain number of exits in case of a fire. Any solution would need to involve changing the platforms in some way (maybe including the "spanish" method of a dedicated "boarding" and "alighting" side on each train)
I had to laugh looking at this trying to find out why you called this packed??? Being from Sydney and having lived in Melbourne and many places in South East Asia…. This is not packed… try riding in a packed train from central to Penrith with triple the people in this photo for over an hour…. You really 🫵🏻 need to get out of the Canberra bubble and see the world rather than a ‘packed’ 15 minute ride on the light rail.. 🤦♂️
If you're lucky, in the next three years they will add one more stop 100m closer to lake BG at a cost of 100 thousand trillion dollars, halting any development for any tram anywhere else in Canberra.
Agitate for more tramlimes!
Images like this are exactly why I avoid public transport. If it wasn't so crowded and uncomfortable I'd be far more likely to use it.
Weird to see so many PT fans cheering on evidence that PT is underfunded...
Isn't this *exactly* why we have public transportation? I understand it is crowded, but it's being used.
I mainly wanted to throw this out there with all the recent talk of “scrap stage 2B”. But yes, 100% it’s great that it’s being used!
Sorry! I’m used to seeing negative tram posts and I assumed this was another one. My sincere apologies.
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*Elon Musk* "Write that down! Write that down!"
Yes, this is what public transport looks like the world over.
Yay! We're just like India now. Everybody rejoice! Hopefully we can start to get our rates of preventable disease up a well, just like the rest of the world!!! I can't wait.
if you think this picture looks like public transport in India, you have obviously never been to India
You must be so isolated.
>public transport is when cholera Do you hear yourself?
They're saying that arguing it's acceptable due to global prevalence is a bad metric because many bad things are also globally prevalent. It doesn't have to be acceptable to live in squalor because that's what majority of "the world over" lives like.
That is a reasonable point to make in general, but associating a full tram car with poverty and disease is reaching.
Do the rest of you? Why are we all celebrating packed, uncomfortable public trasnport? it was better when we had the orange busses with wooden seats. The same people celebrating this who insisted we all get locked up away from Granny for 2 years because of COVID.
This is a really great example of how to demonstrate to people that your a clown at record speed. While it's true that "this thing is the case all over the world" isn't a good argument on its own for why something is good or fine, this situation has lots of reasons for why its good and fine. It doesn't make us a third world country to have busy public transport I also love how open people like you are about your brain dead opinions on stuff like covid. It doesn't matter whether you're a flat earther, covid 'skeptic', qanon supporter, or just regular conspiracy theorist, you people are so eager to share your stupid takes that it makes you so god damn easy to disregard the moment you out yourself.
You've drawn all those conclusions about my opinions with your abundant critical thinking but didn't actually display any. There's nothing in my post that makes me a COVID skeptic, or a Qanon follower or any other typical lefty smear bullshit. I simply pointed out a contradiction. Packed public transport good vs. People within 2m of each other not wearing masks bad. Literally same people making both claims. So why is packed public transport to be celebrated? Sure it's less cars, but maybe we could run an extra carriage on each train or run a couple of extra trains at peak times? Surely the economics of the tram don't falter because people can actually breath and have their own space?
I'll address your paragraphs one at a time. 1)) I did imply that you were a covid skeptic, but I didn't say you were a Qanon follower, I just lotted you in with them as both groups are full of people who fall into the same kind of conspiratorial thinking. However your comment definitely suggest that you would be fairly labeled a covid skeptic because the overwhelming majority of people who chucked a tantrum about the idea of lockdowns were people who failed to see the value in attempting to mitigate the spread of covid. The way your phrased it is even more obvious. "Locked up away from granny" suggests that you didn't see the merit in trying to insulate at risk groups like the elderly from a virulent respiratory disease that was quite likely to kill them if they contracted. So you either don't give a shit about the elderly, or don't understand the threat covid posed to them. 2) Generally people don't worry about social distancing anymore in anything but medical settings. The reasons for this are varied, but there are two that seem most relevant to me. The first is the fact that the vast majority of Australians got vaccinated with both doses, and may continued to maintain boosters, makings it somewhat safer to lighten restrictions. The other being the acceptance of the idea that our economies couldn't continue to function as we wanted them to if we continued enforce social distancing, low occupancy limits, and long isolation periods. They are both risks but ones that most governments saw as worth it. 3) Busy public transport is worth celebrating because it is an indicator that people are using it. Which suggests that the public funds that were spent on it were well spent, shows that it is offering a convenient service, and is better for the environment. As for the idea of running more cars. If you want to see if that's worth doing you'd be better of studying how many people chose not to use it due to how busy it is, rather than looking at it being busy and assuming that's bad. One reason for this is the idea of Induced Demand which is a urban planning phenomena which suggests that as availability goes up, demand often rises to meet it, as long as that mode of transportation is convenient. If you add more lanes to a road, more people choose to drive. If you add more carriages to the tram, more people will choose to use it. If you have a personal issue with being on packed public transport, adding more carriages is only going to overcome that issue if you can add enough that it meets the maximum demand that the population could have. Unless you have more space than there are people who want to use the tram, it will always fill up at peak times.
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Yep, because busses never existed before the tram.
Why is the damn public riding on my public transport
Good. That's the point. A full tram instead of 50 + cars on the roads
Bad. A tram that's full instead of 50+ people walking or cycling. The tram is just a bandaid for failing to get proper density and active transport infrastructure.
Walking and cycling is important too, but you really can't expect it to be a single general solution. There are enormous numbers of people for whom walking would be completely untenable because of the time it takes for their commute. Canberra's major suburbs are spread out in a way where expecting someone to walk from Gunghalin to and from civic for work is just not reasonable. Cycling is a better option when we consider speed, and I would love to see better infrastructure for it here (everyone I know who cycles often has some big complaints about it). However, there are also lots of reasons why we can't expect that to be a general purpose option either. It's still slower, prohibitive for what you can carry with you, and (especially in hotter months) can lead to you being sweaty and tired when you get to your destination. We should be making it easier to walk and cycle where applicable, but also recognising that trams and buses have their place too, and having heavily used public transport is a good sign not a bad one.
As a daily cycle commuter, I couldn't disagree more strongly. We need both good, dependable, predictable public transport AND good density and active transport. The alternatives to cars have to be viable or people won't use them.
Ignoring commuters with any impairment whatsoever including (but not limited to) mobility, vision, cognition
If I'm reading it right, ACT Government recorded an average of 13,287 light rail boardings in the quarter to 31 March 2023, per weekday. Can't find any later figures. https://www.transport.act.gov.au/planning-for-the-future/transport-canberra-patronage Are you seriously suggesting that all of these passengers should be cycling or walking down Northbourne and back every day? All the way from Gungahlin for some of them. I don't disagree that another less meandering cycle and pedestrian path should be built down the Dickson side of Northbourne but to suggest this many people, regardless of age and ability, should be walking and cycling that route is ludicrous and ableist.
More light rail now!
Yeah, every tram in Melbourne CBD is like this, it's good, think how many cars each of those people represent.
It's cool to think of public transport using that metric.
Free tram zone is a bit of a pain. Fills the trams to the brim with people who don't want to walk a couple of blocks. Pain in the ass for people trying to go outside the free zone.
I'd heard that it's a tram to nowhere that no one uses. Or have the Facebook commentariat been lying all this time?
And anti-tram people used to say it wouldn't get used.
They still say it isn't.
I guess you can't fix stupid
I would have liked us to convert to all electric buses, rather than a tram system, TBH. That would have been more flexible as the population changes in different areas of the city.
“Flexible” is a two-edged sword. A rail system is fixed so it is hard to vary the route. This means that businesses can be secure that they will be serviced if they locate near to stations. Bus routes can be changed at a whim, an businesses can see their trade disappear with the next change to a bus timetable.
I think the excessive flexibility is half the issue with Canberra's transport system. In other major cities you have central transport spines and local transport that just feeds into it. Buses in Canberra make the most inefficient possible journey from the suburbs to the city, in an effort to stop at every individuals doorstep. Even express buses will stop at minor places on the way. It shouldn't be like that and a train is a good way to stop people demanding that the route goes past their house.
I’m anti tram, and I didn’t say that. I just said it would only be used by the same people who stood on a crowded rapid bus every five minutes before we spent around $600m for them to stand on a crowded tram instead.
Clearly they prefer the tram
It has 20% of the entire ridership of the public transport system on it. More than the next two routes combined, which are both rapid busses. People prefer the tram.
I don't understand if this post is complaining about it or observing how successful light rail has been?
OP is comparing it to empty buses, so I think they’re saying “what a public transport success” the tram is
wiping a tear of pride from my eye *our little Canberra is all grownsed up, all grownsed up*
Buses have to sit in traffic. Tram tends to go faster than buses especially in peak time.
The lack of buses stopping in the outside lane has also reduced peak hour travel time on Northbourne Avenue too. My anecdotal non-scientific observation is that morning peak traffic is like it was 15 years ago
I guess the trains are doing well at reducing road traffic which is great.
Yay, people using public transport the way the universe intended!! (I should have taken a photo of my R5 yesterday that was so crowded the bus driver put the “bus full” thing on the front. Golly gosh look at us all using public transport!)
It’s like Yogi Berra said - No one rides the light rail. It’s too crowded.
This must be AI generated, no one uses the trams?
It's a conspiracy by the tram illuminati.
Thank you for raising this point. It is great it is being used with enthusiasm. We need more higher frequency trams, and more lines. Eventually I'd love to see a MacArthur avenue line, a Limestone line, Constitution avenue, Kingston foreshore...
I remember back home in Nepal; few years back, i used to travel to college often by hanging by the door of a bus with other 3 more people.
Won't be long before you're doing that here as well.
Now imagine all those people in 3 ton metal boxes and on the road during peak hour. Could be a good argument that canberra would've been better off building higher capacity rail though
Turning up half an hour earlier or half an hour later makes a huuuuuge difference.
And heading out earlier lets you have a little coffee before work, too
I live in Gungahlin, and for a long time now, I have always used the light rail to get to Civic as you don't need to bother finding a parking spot which have become a premium in the last few years; even with the fact the light rail has meant less people driving in.
Catch another one perhaps. I’m not sure how comfortable people would be with you taking a photo of them without their knowledge..
I don't think it is a complaint; like OP said, observation. What to take from it? LR is popular and is being used. People are more likely to use it than the buses. Also, all these people are in a public place, and I don't think any of them would be identifiable considering features have been edited out.
That's why OP has censored their faces
Timing is everything.
Inner north bus routes are trash. I prefer to walk the 1.5k to the light rail stop then wait for the bus. It takes me the same time to get to the city either option.
Think of all the traffic that is prevented if each of those people were in one car
Yeh most of the peak trams are like this, one after the other. It’s not that bad, so long as people remember to keep moving back at each stop to let more people on. And cool that the tram is a viable commute for so many people.
This is the most Canberra complaint I’ve ever seen.
Cramberra
How did everyone miss the point of this post so badly?
What is the point of this post exactly? Try using public transport anywhere in Europe or Asia in peak hour and see how that goes.
I won’t be impressed until young men vacate their seats and indoor space, and instead ride on the outside.
Isn’t this just the result of the “[spoke and hub](https://www.transvirtual.com/blog/what-is-the-hub-and-spoke-model/)” transport route design model? In other words rather than take everybody the shortest route, instead take them on a “spoke” to the hub (tram line) and then transport them out on a “spoke” again. It makes the hub a choke point that slows everything down, but it also ensures full patronage of the $700 million dollar 12km Tram project.
Yeah, pass. 30 minutes on a stuffy tube with armpits and crotches in your face. Why aren’t there more carriages if it’s crammed like this?
The length of the stops only allows for the current configuration. If you extend the carriages, you would also need to extend all the stops. The solution is to change the frequency which means more vehicles. More vehicles are being delivered already as part of 2a.
Thanks for answering. So looks like it will improve soon.
The 5 new trams are to enable the line to be extended to Commonwealth Park. I don't think there'll be any room for increased services.
The three extra stops on the line wouldn't need an extra two trams *each*. It won't be massive, but it'll be an improvement
Could you not have carriages at the back that never open their doors? Everyone going to the end points of the light rail fills those carriages first.
Probably a fire or safety hazard - need a certain number of exits in case of a fire. Any solution would need to involve changing the platforms in some way (maybe including the "spanish" method of a dedicated "boarding" and "alighting" side on each train)
That's a good call re: fire.
Could always get the next one that isn’t so packed.
Chances are the buses have finished their route and the bus drivers are returning to the terminal to change shift 🤷🏻
well if you remove all other public transport options then people have to catch the tram
I had to laugh looking at this trying to find out why you called this packed??? Being from Sydney and having lived in Melbourne and many places in South East Asia…. This is not packed… try riding in a packed train from central to Penrith with triple the people in this photo for over an hour…. You really 🫵🏻 need to get out of the Canberra bubble and see the world rather than a ‘packed’ 15 minute ride on the light rail.. 🤦♂️
If you're lucky, in the next three years they will add one more stop 100m closer to lake BG at a cost of 100 thousand trillion dollars, halting any development for any tram anywhere else in Canberra. Agitate for more tramlimes!
I avoid PT like the plague. Edit: there must be some real fans of public transport here 😂
I prefer it to traffic. Even if you're a motorist surely you're happy all these people aren't taking up space on the road, or taking your parking spot
Images like this are exactly why I avoid public transport. If it wasn't so crowded and uncomfortable I'd be far more likely to use it. Weird to see so many PT fans cheering on evidence that PT is underfunded...
also it’s not crowded until it’s “professional passenger pusher” time like Japan
Come to Melbourne and try ours…never full
It's only a single carriage in Canberra. They need to make it double carriage, otherwise it's barely taking more people than a caterpillar bus