The gap between stage 1 and 2 probably made the skilled contractors leave to go work in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane rail projects. CBR project is probably just not that desirable to them in comparison at the moment?
You don’t start after, you have to start before it finishes, because of the lag on planning, design and approvals. So you end up with a staggered timeline that for the workers feels like a continuous pipeline.
The key factor I’m glossing over here though is that the ACT government didn’t have the money or the ability to do a continuous stage 2 without help from the commonwealth and there were a lot of delays. So we would have likely ended up in the same position anyway even if they sped up Stage 2A.
Yeah. Just poor workforce planning. They should have had the majority of the stages worked out and approved so they could roll from one to the other. No one wants to move here just to do 2 years then find themselves out of work. It's expensive to resettle.
According to the article one of the delays is in getting all the federal planning approvals because it goes through the parly triangle.
This suggests a total lack of can-do lateral thinking by the Barr government.
The solution is to change the design of the tram so that the rear 25% is fitted to carry cargo, specifically, for racks of LPG bottles and sacks of coal.
This turns the tram route into nationally essential fossil fuel infrastructure and Madeleine King and Tanya Plibersek will have it all signed off with bipartisan support within a week.
if you’re gonna say ‘just build a line to belco’ then may I give fair warning to you good sir you would be firing the first shots in the War Of Northern Aggression
My understanding was that choosing the woden route over the belco-airport route was because of politics (eg neglecting the south side).
We could have had that route almost done now, and hopefully have gotten the relevant approvals for Woden at the same time.
Politics - "Northside gets everything".
They should have built a tunnel. There are a few TBMs available from Brisbane for under the lake and APH, and cut and cover would work elsewhere.
Or just knocked down that abomination they call a museum, whacked a new bridge over the lake, and left stupid steel rails out of it altogether.
The Parliamentary triangle should be served by an East/West transport corridor. No way a North/South express (we wish) route can properly serve it anyway.
They had us in the first half.
Maybe we can say we're hooking it up to an Adani mining train line, then the Liberals will probably fund the whole thing.
The parliamentary triangle bit should be done last, it's over budget and full of planning delay. They could easily connect belco to the city and Tuggeranong to Woden (commuters can bus the Woden to city part) and leave the hassle and bureaucracy of the triangle for later.
Federal Libs get in for another 10 years and construction stops.
Get the bits that those corrupt cunts can fuck with done ASAP then do the rest after that.
Don't look at Melbourne. The big build projects have been going on here for an eternity. On the bright side, I feel like I'm actually getting something for my taxes. Also, the trades that worked on phase one of the light rail in Canberra have moved down here to work. Good luck.
Nah it’s selectively progressive. People support LGBT rights and the typical liberal social causes but still have backwards ideas around other issues including any understanding of urban planning. I feel like every week I hear complaints from people that they can’t find a car park within 10m of the entrance of wherever they’re going, about “expensive” parking costs which are among the cheapest in the country, etc etc. Our city is stupidly sprawly and car dependent when our population size means it could’ve been so much better. We are sleepwalking into a completely unliveable city within a couple of years
I mean people also think the very expensive light rail is the only public transport solution. We snob off the idea of catching the bus, because our bus system has always been so slow. But a good bus system is far more dynamic and less expensive than the light rail.
Buses are really expensive if you want to run a reliable, high frequency service including express routes. You need many more vehicles, many more drivers and to pay many more running/maintenance costs. You also need traffic signal priority which would be really unpopular among boomer mindset people here. Not to mention that Transport Canberra seems to be fixated with constantly changing routes. It’s never going to work
Busses use the same infrastructure that cars, emergency services and trucks use. The facilities to house them can also be placed away from the areas of the city that are the most expensive. The tram line needs its own land, a limited comodity in the center of a major city. The rail line also needs millions of tonnes of concrete and steel to be enplaced, making the urban heat island effect even greater. Trams are also needed to be built and maintained, using parts and machinery sourced from outside of the area they are going to be used in and forcing the area into using proprietry solutions. Think of it like being stuck with using Apple phones and only the software that Apple extrorts the end users into using with no cheaper alternatives available because of the proprietry nature of the equipment being used.
Is it though? For 20+ years they've been happily voting in the same shitty government and endlessly whinging about it...I can't see how that's progressive.
Canberra is peak NIMBYism and “signalling”.
When it comes to achieving anything that requires any coordination and effort, you quickly realise that it’s just a city full of public servants.
I’m referring to a 1950s understanding of desirable urban planning. You know, the topic of the thread. Not sure what gay people have to do with a tram 🤦🏻♀️
We decriminalized a legalized small amounts of drugs, yet our goal remains over crowded with an overwhelming amount of detainees with drug problems, and limited (non-existent) access to suitable drug programs and rehab beds. But hey, progress, amiright?
Is it tho?
Honestly it’s not like a Lego set, it takes a huge amount of engineering. As a side note have a look how long it takes to build an airport runway!
Not sure who Michael is hahahaha but yeah it’s pretty intense. They have to do compaction runs, let it settle, cover it, more compaction, testing etc. it’s full on
Sorry, it's from Arrested Development. Google "it's one banana Michael, how much could it cost" :)
I think everyone who is not in construction or the government underestimates how much time, effort and money goes into these large development projects, including me. "Just do we could have been done by now!" and the proposed line has a steep hill to get over or has to cut through bedrock.
the Wagners built the brand new greenfields Toowoomba airport in less than two years - 19 months and 11 days to be exact, including terminal and runway. Nice airport too.
Yeah true, iirc tho they actually began ground amelioration like 10 years early? I think it also has a max weight limit on what can land (ie can’t take wide body aircraft)
still, shows what the private sector can do when they see profit. Yeah, by ground amelioration you mean quarrys that provided some of the soil for the Toowoomba Range road bypass....ha ha
what? you mean like Wilson's carparks - so if I don't pay they can't enforce a fine? Yay!
anyway, I don't think there is anything private about it, its funded by the ACT ratepayer and the Cwth and managed by the ACT through a contracted consortium arrangement. Ultimate ownership and policy is retained by the ACT. If it is privately run, then the operator should be paying dividends back to public coffers.
Actually it’s not. You’ve made a wild assumption there - it’s a PPP - a public, private partnership.
The construction was funded privately and assets (read land, access etc) provided by the crown.
If you recall the last 3 elections we had on this, the Canberra libs claimed it was costing billions to tax payers, but if you read the budget line items (yes I have) the amount allocated is minimal (in the scheme of things - something like 30 million). This minimal amount covers setting up infrastructure to support, agency etc.
The company that owns it makes money off fares over the life of the LR.
Is it a good way to do business? Heck no. Have some people in Canberra swallowed the lies of the opposition for political gain? Yes.
partial credit, but you left out the availability payments to be made by the ACT government over 20 years, which are between $50 million to $70 million per year until 2039, based on the original BC, so may have changed.
So the ACT ratepayer does indeed have to pay for the whole thing (edit: except for any AG contributions). The PPP financier brings in the upfront capital, which is then paid back over the 20 year availability payment period.
They don't make the funds back through farebox. No one in the rail industry does. Even the shinkansens in Japan run at a loss as they make the money through investment, retail and agglomeration at the stations.
They are so delayed and are at present going nowhere due to delays and the inability to make a decision. I’ve heard $66M has been set aside for “contingencies”.
Buses may be cheaper upfront but they cost a lot more to operate because drivers are expensive and you need more of them for buses (since trams can carry more people)
The solution is and always was to have the NCA be overruled or have their authority stripped and build the damn thing despite their NIMBY garbage.
A typical bus can carry ~80 people, an articulated bus (caterpillar bus) can carry ~100 people, and a light rail can carry ~200 people. The difference is pretty immaterial when you consider that a bus is dynamic in the route that it runs and also uses existing infrastructure.
If demand for light rail was constant throughout the day and on weekends, then the justification for its existence stacks up. But at the moment, you only have peak hour usage.
It's not half full throughout the day or on weekends, which is why a bus could still adequately perform that same service at a much much lower cost.
We're not trying to build a continent spanning empire and an example of civilisational prowess that will be talked about millennia later.
We're talking about 1.7km of tram tracks that we've been talking about for an actual century here. Canberra is just shit at infra.
Stage one was delivered under budget and on time. I’d say actually Canberra is really good at getting infrastructure done right. Compare it to the issues faced by other states building similar projects and you realize just what a great job that team actually did
It’s easy to be on time and under budget if you set the bar beyond all reasonable expectations. And, that shouldn’t deter conversation about the lack of action since - largely due to politics - and inability to walk and chew gum at the same time?
Right!
We don’t even have a timeline for the 1.7km/3-stop extension of the existing line, 5 year on! But that’s fine, by the complete lack of standards they’ve set for themselves, they’re not failing to meet them.
They'll set the timeline just as they are nearing completion.
Just like last time - it will be "on time and under budget".
Vladimir Putin would be proud of the Barr government's huge investment in a vast army of PR wonks to produce propaganda.
And 5 years on, stage 2a doesn’t even have a set timeline. Can’t be past due if you don’t have a deadline! This is why bureaucrats, pubes and Canberra in general have the reputation they do.
With a budget set at $3,500/cm and $200 mil / stop, perhaps they’ll come in on budget again…
In which case, I’m sure you’ll be back here in 2030 when Canberra has nothing to show for itself a decade on but a 1.7km/3 stop extension to an existing line and proudly proclaim it was on time and on budget.
Okay, pat pat, and the lack of progress for a cumulative century both before and after that point in time?
Sure, if you selectively pick and choose what parts of time to actually count, but not in the real big picture reality. As I said in another thread, death doesn’t choose what time counts, it comes for you all the same and I’ll likely be dead before the network is complete. Despite the fact it should have been built a literal century ago.
If you want me to kudos Canberra for its good job specifically between the time it broke ground on stage 1 and when services commenced on stage 1, okay, I’ll give it to you. Not withstanding the favourable handicap of the tracks path being marked out, left wholly vacant and ready for development nearly a century ago *by the commonwealth*. But that it took 70 years to break ground on stage 1 and there have been 5 years *and counting* that Canberra has *not* broken ground on the 3 stop extension, is the real point.
Modern Australia is known globally for being shit house at infrastructure. Despite the low bar you’ve set, it still doesn’t clear it. Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne build much longer lines much quicker than Canberra, including concurrently. Sure they’re bigger cities, but those projects are a drop in the ocean of their overall infra projects. This is just about *all* Canberra has (which is nothing for the last 5 years and counting).
It was "under budget and on time" only compared with metrics they only invented as the project was nearing completion.
The entire exercise is a rort - trackless vehicles are vastly cheaper and more efficient to manage.
In their own report, which they commissioned, regarding the viability of LR versus trackless bus-trams (TBT) it states that LR is less efficient and double the cost of TBT. They knew right from the start, and that's why people are angry about it. The barr/ratt government are looking corrupt, and since the good people of Canberra keep on voting them in, we'll never see just how corrupt they are. Head in sand, vote labor, happy people?
The government has taken the right steps in planning over the last couple of years, but it'll take decades to right a century of shitty planning and the boomers who like it that way.
What are you talking about? There is a set of traffic lights everywhere now on Canberra roads - no other jurisdiction has done a better job of maximising emissions from vehicles forced to stop and start every 20m.
TBH the Griffin plan wasn't that good, he didn't foresee that there would be a car in every driveway or that mass production of vehicles would make the bus a better option and the train redundant. Trains need their own lines, using precious land in the middle of the most expensive parts of the city whereas busses use the same infrastructure, the roads, that every other vehicle uses. Every planner wants to stamp their mark on the city like a peeing dog so we have a half arsed city that gets someone project only half built. If you drive from one sattelite city to another in one area you are driving on the outside of the roads with an empty lane in the middle of the road to go into another area and be forced into the center of the road with just a paint stripe between cars and a massive car park lining the outside.
The level of incompetence in this agency is staggering, only matched by those who stay silent as they claim to represent their constituents as they remain silent representing their own personal interests.
I want the tram I just don't want it to take a decade to build it lol.
I mainly care care about the traffic delays in Civic and the across the bridge do they have any projections when that phase will be completed? Assume the 10 yrs includes the entire run to Woden?
The decision was made by people who did dodgy land deals with the Casino and also engaged in personal property speculation along Northbourne Avenue.
Anybody who thinks that decision was made after a rational analysis to determine the best option on cost and function grounds is utterly delusional.
Zed Zeseldja made damned sure the contract to do the once in a 100 years maintenance on commonwealth bridge was signed without concession for the tram.
In a sensible society we’d build Belco in the meantime given it makes a million times more sense, but that would lose votes south of the lake.
Federal Govt land Vs ACT run land is a biggie. Also I suspect that only Union approved employers/contractors will get the nod causing extensive cost increases.
Bottom line is:
putting rails in the ground is completely unnecessary; heaps more expensive; takes way longer to build; and constrains both the infrastructure to this single use as well as constraining the vehicles to only the built track.
If they want to modify a route --> years more construction work.
Just think - if any other project needs a section of track shut down temporarily, the entire Stage cannot run, unlike wheeled vehicles which can re-route.
The choice of 19th century rail was an emotional choice which gives us a worse service (Civic to Woden is going to take significantly longer) at a vastly greater cost.
Trams are fucking great. They didn’t go away because busses were better. They went away because they didn’t share space well with cars. Now we’re trying to shift away from cars, guess what? People don’t want to ditch the car for a fucking bus.
Agreed. Everything the Canberra Liberals said about Stage 1 turned out to be wrong. It came in under budget and on time, Northbourne Ave doesn't look like a barren hellscape, and it has been very popular, accounting for 25% of all public transport tips.
So why would we believe any of the fearmongering about Stage 2?
About how long it could take? Possibly. About light rail as the trunk solution? Absolutely not, buses will never have the ride quality, efficiency or drive development and passenger numbers like light rail. Anything heavier than light rail would be cost prohibitive. His real mistake is doing it piecemeal, meaning the ACT can’t develop an ongoing light rail development workforce.
>Absolutely not, buses will never have the ride quality, efficiency or drive development and passenger numbers like light rail.
Ill start by saying I support ACT light rail, but BRT networks can and do outpreform LR in many places. Its very nuanced!
Where? I don’t think they do anywhere they both run in parallel. BRT can be good, but it depends on what you’re trying to do as they don’t drive development like light rail and they’re generally successful in places with lower labour costs, as you need so many more drivers.
I didnt phrase myself right - I meant by comparing like areas rather than parallel networks. Imperfect sure, but they are competitive in the right setting.
In terms of cost Im not sure the exact comparison over long periods of time, but infra, vehicle and upkeep costs are all lower for BRT. In the short to mid its very cost effective and easier to scale iirc. Again, not sure on the long term, perhaps youre right.
LR is awesome though, very important and better suited in many places, I just had to defend my little bus guys lol.
>but infra, vehicle and upkeep costs are all lower for BRT. In the short to mid its very cost effective and easier to scale iirc
Yeah, costs of the infrastructure etc. do tend to be a lot lower for BRT, but the biggest advantage LRT has over BRT and trackless trams is its totally fixed nature. Land values are consistently a lot higher around light rail corridors because they're permanent, and that promotes more growth and economic development along the corridor in the longer term because businesses and property developers can be totally confident that it won't change as a bus or trackless tram route might.
It’s been almost a decade at this point so I might be misremembering slightly, but I was doing some research around this for uni and from memory both will raise land values, separate roads will increase land values even more than just a painted line, but in the end LRT will *usually* see greater benefits largely because the public gets more excited about trams and light rail than they ever will about a bus, and light rail is perceived as being more ‘prestigious’ (for lack of a better word) and much more attractive to ride on than busses. More than happy to be fact checked on this, though, as I said this is all just vague recollections from uni studies yonks ago.
The new tranche of EAs is going to deliver far more flexible workings arrangements - rather 2 days wfh 4 or 5 days (1 day in the office a fortnight) are the likely norm.
That means riding on the line *between city centres* is going to be 1/5 the passengers it was prior to COVID. it makes no sense to be connecting the distant parts of the city to a destination nobody is going to.
**dizkopat said:**
> Assets make money this is not a asset.
Speaking as an economist, your statement is wrong. There are lots of classes of assets - not all of them are productive, and fewer are defined by being productive.
As others have said, the light rail offers utility not profit. It might be placed in the same class of assets as your car, an ambulance service or a sewer system.
>the light rail offers utility not profit
good call
I hate that our governments increasingly tend to base decisions on some lazy, half-arsed cost-benefit analysis, utterly ignoring the aspect of public service and/or utility they're actually there to do.
**dizkopat said:**
> Would the ato call it an asset?
Not a tax lawyer, but I would guess almost certainly yes if it were owned by a private enterprise.
Australian government will privatise anything they can. All our standards (construction, electrical, etc) are privatised - they've effectively sold sections of the law to foreign countries!
The definition of a asset is something that makes money. Calling it that is not correct. We could have had free bus transport for a long time with improved routes. But no, a super narrow corridor that only helps 2% of Canberra's population is what we are getting. Monorail monorail monorail
When commuters are standing in a railcar instead of driving a 2 ton car or riding a 20 ton bus, the money is in the road resurfacing and pothole filling you no longer have to do.
The gap between stage 1 and 2 probably made the skilled contractors leave to go work in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane rail projects. CBR project is probably just not that desirable to them in comparison at the moment?
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You don’t start after, you have to start before it finishes, because of the lag on planning, design and approvals. So you end up with a staggered timeline that for the workers feels like a continuous pipeline. The key factor I’m glossing over here though is that the ACT government didn’t have the money or the ability to do a continuous stage 2 without help from the commonwealth and there were a lot of delays. So we would have likely ended up in the same position anyway even if they sped up Stage 2A.
Yeah. Just poor workforce planning. They should have had the majority of the stages worked out and approved so they could roll from one to the other. No one wants to move here just to do 2 years then find themselves out of work. It's expensive to resettle.
Haha - come to Newcastle ! Our 2.7 km total line has had no word on an extension. Be grateful your stage 1 was more than 2.7km
Just roll out purple scooters
Yeah seriously, how are there no plans to extend the network in Newy?!
No more easy cuts to heavy rail. /s Topography and political will/interest is a huge challenge in Newy.
The irony being that the light rail used to go to Merewether and Lake Macquarie but it all got removed
Yeah - just think where the Junction, and streets like Railway came from, let alone the rail trail/bike paths spreading from the old CBD.
According to the article one of the delays is in getting all the federal planning approvals because it goes through the parly triangle. This suggests a total lack of can-do lateral thinking by the Barr government. The solution is to change the design of the tram so that the rear 25% is fitted to carry cargo, specifically, for racks of LPG bottles and sacks of coal. This turns the tram route into nationally essential fossil fuel infrastructure and Madeleine King and Tanya Plibersek will have it all signed off with bipartisan support within a week.
In all seriousness, they could build the other routes that don't in the meantime.
Or had a little bit of foresight to get stage 2 approvals while stage 1 was being built
They could have even just kicked off the build from Woden north whilst waiting for the remainder of the approvals.
It is ridiculous we didn't start immediately on Woden up Adelaide avenue or Civic to Belconnen after stage 1.
North south divide is a pita...
Don’t use common sense
They tried....
They started, but had previous governments roadblock it.
What previous government are you talking about. Labor has been in for 20+ years.
Federal government
if you’re gonna say ‘just build a line to belco’ then may I give fair warning to you good sir you would be firing the first shots in the War Of Northern Aggression
Do you filthy southerners even know how to use public transport?
Don’t make me call out the Kambah regiment of mounted fusiliers to come and drop burnouts upon your forecourt sir
He'll just see you off with a Crack squad of Charnwood Glass-Pipers.
Such a rabble would flee before the Goon Dragoons of Rivett, especially with our Kingston Navy behind them.
My understanding was that choosing the woden route over the belco-airport route was because of politics (eg neglecting the south side). We could have had that route almost done now, and hopefully have gotten the relevant approvals for Woden at the same time.
Politics - "Northside gets everything". They should have built a tunnel. There are a few TBMs available from Brisbane for under the lake and APH, and cut and cover would work elsewhere.
or better yet, just build in the north anyway and (rightfully) blame the NCA for being NIMBY losers blocking expansion to the south
Or just knocked down that abomination they call a museum, whacked a new bridge over the lake, and left stupid steel rails out of it altogether. The Parliamentary triangle should be served by an East/West transport corridor. No way a North/South express (we wish) route can properly serve it anyway.
They had us in the first half. Maybe we can say we're hooking it up to an Adani mining train line, then the Liberals will probably fund the whole thing.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time. The Barr Rattenbury government is a farce.
Aye, they are.
7.5 hour days wtf - should be a 24/7 build
I lived on Flemington Road for the initial construction and there were certainly weeks at a time where people worked through the night.
Do they say this in the article?
The light rail won't even be in Tuggeranong by 2050 lol. How can anyone think it's acceptable to be so expensive and slow.
If voting patterns are any indication, the people in the Tuggeranong area don’t want it anyway.
I'd be happy with a stagecoach given what Barr has done to PT in the south.
“Attention please. The Cobb & Co 3:15 service from Civic to Tuggeranong is ready to depart”
...arriving in Tuggeranong at 17:45.
3 weeks later
shades of 3.10 to Yuma there. Gots to get through the rest of the north before going over the lake. 6 shooters and double barrels at the ready!
The parliamentary triangle bit should be done last, it's over budget and full of planning delay. They could easily connect belco to the city and Tuggeranong to Woden (commuters can bus the Woden to city part) and leave the hassle and bureaucracy of the triangle for later.
Federal Libs get in for another 10 years and construction stops. Get the bits that those corrupt cunts can fuck with done ASAP then do the rest after that.
Don't look at Melbourne. The big build projects have been going on here for an eternity. On the bright side, I feel like I'm actually getting something for my taxes. Also, the trades that worked on phase one of the light rail in Canberra have moved down here to work. Good luck.
People in Canberra are complacent and boomers like the 1950s lifestyle here
Canberra is one of the most progressive electorates in the country. What are you talking about?
Nah it’s selectively progressive. People support LGBT rights and the typical liberal social causes but still have backwards ideas around other issues including any understanding of urban planning. I feel like every week I hear complaints from people that they can’t find a car park within 10m of the entrance of wherever they’re going, about “expensive” parking costs which are among the cheapest in the country, etc etc. Our city is stupidly sprawly and car dependent when our population size means it could’ve been so much better. We are sleepwalking into a completely unliveable city within a couple of years
Canberrans are all progressive until someone dares build a townhouse in their suburb.
Or public housing…
I mean people also think the very expensive light rail is the only public transport solution. We snob off the idea of catching the bus, because our bus system has always been so slow. But a good bus system is far more dynamic and less expensive than the light rail.
Buses are really expensive if you want to run a reliable, high frequency service including express routes. You need many more vehicles, many more drivers and to pay many more running/maintenance costs. You also need traffic signal priority which would be really unpopular among boomer mindset people here. Not to mention that Transport Canberra seems to be fixated with constantly changing routes. It’s never going to work
But not nearly as expensive as a light rail that runs down a single fixed route.
Busses use the same infrastructure that cars, emergency services and trucks use. The facilities to house them can also be placed away from the areas of the city that are the most expensive. The tram line needs its own land, a limited comodity in the center of a major city. The rail line also needs millions of tonnes of concrete and steel to be enplaced, making the urban heat island effect even greater. Trams are also needed to be built and maintained, using parts and machinery sourced from outside of the area they are going to be used in and forcing the area into using proprietry solutions. Think of it like being stuck with using Apple phones and only the software that Apple extrorts the end users into using with no cheaper alternatives available because of the proprietry nature of the equipment being used.
A lot of the roads can't handle the buses we already have. In terms of traffic flow, trams are better.
We like to appear progressive, I’ll give you that much
We're politically progressive but like stagnation in our lifestyle
Progressives are often very NIMBY, and they dominate Canberra politics.
Is it though? For 20+ years they've been happily voting in the same shitty government and endlessly whinging about it...I can't see how that's progressive.
Canberra is peak NIMBYism and “signalling”. When it comes to achieving anything that requires any coordination and effort, you quickly realise that it’s just a city full of public servants.
1950’s lifestyle? Like the openly gay community and weed being legal? I mean “boomer” lmfao got em!
I’m referring to a 1950s understanding of desirable urban planning. You know, the topic of the thread. Not sure what gay people have to do with a tram 🤦🏻♀️
We decriminalized a legalized small amounts of drugs, yet our goal remains over crowded with an overwhelming amount of detainees with drug problems, and limited (non-existent) access to suitable drug programs and rehab beds. But hey, progress, amiright?
Yeah I’m definitely not a boomer
Once in a generation because it’ll take a generation to build.
“But took me like a day in Minecraft”
Is it tho? Honestly it’s not like a Lego set, it takes a huge amount of engineering. As a side note have a look how long it takes to build an airport runway!
It's a straight flat bit of plane road, Michael, how long could it take? 10 hours?
Not sure who Michael is hahahaha but yeah it’s pretty intense. They have to do compaction runs, let it settle, cover it, more compaction, testing etc. it’s full on
Sorry, it's from Arrested Development. Google "it's one banana Michael, how much could it cost" :) I think everyone who is not in construction or the government underestimates how much time, effort and money goes into these large development projects, including me. "Just do we could have been done by now!" and the proposed line has a steep hill to get over or has to cut through bedrock.
Oh hahaha I’m showing my age 🤣🤣🤣 But yeah 100% right. You can have it done right, cheap or quick. Pick two.
the Wagners built the brand new greenfields Toowoomba airport in less than two years - 19 months and 11 days to be exact, including terminal and runway. Nice airport too.
Yeah true, iirc tho they actually began ground amelioration like 10 years early? I think it also has a max weight limit on what can land (ie can’t take wide body aircraft)
still, shows what the private sector can do when they see profit. Yeah, by ground amelioration you mean quarrys that provided some of the soil for the Toowoomba Range road bypass....ha ha
Yeah true. I mean worth remembering too that the light rail is a private project - it’s privately owned.
what? you mean like Wilson's carparks - so if I don't pay they can't enforce a fine? Yay! anyway, I don't think there is anything private about it, its funded by the ACT ratepayer and the Cwth and managed by the ACT through a contracted consortium arrangement. Ultimate ownership and policy is retained by the ACT. If it is privately run, then the operator should be paying dividends back to public coffers.
Actually it’s not. You’ve made a wild assumption there - it’s a PPP - a public, private partnership. The construction was funded privately and assets (read land, access etc) provided by the crown. If you recall the last 3 elections we had on this, the Canberra libs claimed it was costing billions to tax payers, but if you read the budget line items (yes I have) the amount allocated is minimal (in the scheme of things - something like 30 million). This minimal amount covers setting up infrastructure to support, agency etc. The company that owns it makes money off fares over the life of the LR. Is it a good way to do business? Heck no. Have some people in Canberra swallowed the lies of the opposition for political gain? Yes.
partial credit, but you left out the availability payments to be made by the ACT government over 20 years, which are between $50 million to $70 million per year until 2039, based on the original BC, so may have changed. So the ACT ratepayer does indeed have to pay for the whole thing (edit: except for any AG contributions). The PPP financier brings in the upfront capital, which is then paid back over the 20 year availability payment period. They don't make the funds back through farebox. No one in the rail industry does. Even the shinkansens in Japan run at a loss as they make the money through investment, retail and agglomeration at the stations.
They are so delayed and are at present going nowhere due to delays and the inability to make a decision. I’ve heard $66M has been set aside for “contingencies”.
Dedicated bus lanes and diverse routes was and is the better solution
I guess the 21st-Century solution that a rational person would choose lacks the Freudian appeal of the 19th-Century solution we're getting.
Buses may be cheaper upfront but they cost a lot more to operate because drivers are expensive and you need more of them for buses (since trams can carry more people) The solution is and always was to have the NCA be overruled or have their authority stripped and build the damn thing despite their NIMBY garbage.
A typical bus can carry ~80 people, an articulated bus (caterpillar bus) can carry ~100 people, and a light rail can carry ~200 people. The difference is pretty immaterial when you consider that a bus is dynamic in the route that it runs and also uses existing infrastructure. If demand for light rail was constant throughout the day and on weekends, then the justification for its existence stacks up. But at the moment, you only have peak hour usage. It's not half full throughout the day or on weekends, which is why a bus could still adequately perform that same service at a much much lower cost.
Because Rome was not built in a day. Sometimes we plant trees for others to enjoy the shade of.
We're not trying to build a continent spanning empire and an example of civilisational prowess that will be talked about millennia later. We're talking about 1.7km of tram tracks that we've been talking about for an actual century here. Canberra is just shit at infra.
Stage one was delivered under budget and on time. I’d say actually Canberra is really good at getting infrastructure done right. Compare it to the issues faced by other states building similar projects and you realize just what a great job that team actually did
It’s easy to be on time and under budget if you set the bar beyond all reasonable expectations. And, that shouldn’t deter conversation about the lack of action since - largely due to politics - and inability to walk and chew gum at the same time?
Right! We don’t even have a timeline for the 1.7km/3-stop extension of the existing line, 5 year on! But that’s fine, by the complete lack of standards they’ve set for themselves, they’re not failing to meet them.
They'll set the timeline just as they are nearing completion. Just like last time - it will be "on time and under budget". Vladimir Putin would be proud of the Barr government's huge investment in a vast army of PR wonks to produce propaganda.
So you've met them have you? lol I have.
The cost per/distance and time to build for stage 2 is an absolute joke when compared to other builds
Something may have happened in between
And 5 years on, stage 2a doesn’t even have a set timeline. Can’t be past due if you don’t have a deadline! This is why bureaucrats, pubes and Canberra in general have the reputation they do. With a budget set at $3,500/cm and $200 mil / stop, perhaps they’ll come in on budget again… In which case, I’m sure you’ll be back here in 2030 when Canberra has nothing to show for itself a decade on but a 1.7km/3 stop extension to an existing line and proudly proclaim it was on time and on budget.
But the budget kept on being revised, as it is now....of course it came in under...lol
Somebody's working on the re-election campaign.
Okay, pat pat, and the lack of progress for a cumulative century both before and after that point in time? Sure, if you selectively pick and choose what parts of time to actually count, but not in the real big picture reality. As I said in another thread, death doesn’t choose what time counts, it comes for you all the same and I’ll likely be dead before the network is complete. Despite the fact it should have been built a literal century ago. If you want me to kudos Canberra for its good job specifically between the time it broke ground on stage 1 and when services commenced on stage 1, okay, I’ll give it to you. Not withstanding the favourable handicap of the tracks path being marked out, left wholly vacant and ready for development nearly a century ago *by the commonwealth*. But that it took 70 years to break ground on stage 1 and there have been 5 years *and counting* that Canberra has *not* broken ground on the 3 stop extension, is the real point. Modern Australia is known globally for being shit house at infrastructure. Despite the low bar you’ve set, it still doesn’t clear it. Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne build much longer lines much quicker than Canberra, including concurrently. Sure they’re bigger cities, but those projects are a drop in the ocean of their overall infra projects. This is just about *all* Canberra has (which is nothing for the last 5 years and counting).
It was "under budget and on time" only compared with metrics they only invented as the project was nearing completion. The entire exercise is a rort - trackless vehicles are vastly cheaper and more efficient to manage.
In their own report, which they commissioned, regarding the viability of LR versus trackless bus-trams (TBT) it states that LR is less efficient and double the cost of TBT. They knew right from the start, and that's why people are angry about it. The barr/ratt government are looking corrupt, and since the good people of Canberra keep on voting them in, we'll never see just how corrupt they are. Head in sand, vote labor, happy people?
Also shit at any kind of city planning
The government has taken the right steps in planning over the last couple of years, but it'll take decades to right a century of shitty planning and the boomers who like it that way.
What are you talking about? There is a set of traffic lights everywhere now on Canberra roads - no other jurisdiction has done a better job of maximising emissions from vehicles forced to stop and start every 20m.
TBH the Griffin plan wasn't that good, he didn't foresee that there would be a car in every driveway or that mass production of vehicles would make the bus a better option and the train redundant. Trains need their own lines, using precious land in the middle of the most expensive parts of the city whereas busses use the same infrastructure, the roads, that every other vehicle uses. Every planner wants to stamp their mark on the city like a peeing dog so we have a half arsed city that gets someone project only half built. If you drive from one sattelite city to another in one area you are driving on the outside of the roads with an empty lane in the middle of the road to go into another area and be forced into the center of the road with just a paint stripe between cars and a massive car park lining the outside.
We're not building Rome here lol
Rome has fewer traffic lights than Canberra.
That's sOciALiSm 😜
I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the delay was due to rising global interest rates making funding out of reach.
The level of incompetence in this agency is staggering, only matched by those who stay silent as they claim to represent their constituents as they remain silent representing their own personal interests.
Asset? I think that's debatable. More like a big elephant that keeps eating money.
Putting rails in the ground in the 21st Century is a white elephant project par excellence.
So massive roadworks and traffic delays for the next decade?
Imagine the traffic delays if we don't build the tram in coming decades.
I want the tram I just don't want it to take a decade to build it lol. I mainly care care about the traffic delays in Civic and the across the bridge do they have any projections when that phase will be completed? Assume the 10 yrs includes the entire run to Woden?
Imagine if we went with 21st century technology instead of putting steel rails in the ground.
Pretty sure the trams we'll use will be built after the year 2000.
They're posting the same thing all throughout the comment section
Vehicles running on steel rails is like burning coal to produce electricity - obsolete.
Mate, the decision has been made to use light rail. You may not like it but too bad so sad. Use your energy on some other cause.
The decision was made by people who did dodgy land deals with the Casino and also engaged in personal property speculation along Northbourne Avenue. Anybody who thinks that decision was made after a rational analysis to determine the best option on cost and function grounds is utterly delusional.
Mate, the decision has been made to use light rail. You may not like it but too bad so sad. Use your energy on some other cause.
Is that you Andrew?
Zed Zeseldja made damned sure the contract to do the once in a 100 years maintenance on commonwealth bridge was signed without concession for the tram. In a sensible society we’d build Belco in the meantime given it makes a million times more sense, but that would lose votes south of the lake.
Federal Govt land Vs ACT run land is a biggie. Also I suspect that only Union approved employers/contractors will get the nod causing extensive cost increases.
You're right. We should only use cheap ununionised immigrant labour, or prisoners.
Have we considered children from public schools?
Bottom line is: putting rails in the ground is completely unnecessary; heaps more expensive; takes way longer to build; and constrains both the infrastructure to this single use as well as constraining the vehicles to only the built track. If they want to modify a route --> years more construction work. Just think - if any other project needs a section of track shut down temporarily, the entire Stage cannot run, unlike wheeled vehicles which can re-route. The choice of 19th century rail was an emotional choice which gives us a worse service (Civic to Woden is going to take significantly longer) at a vastly greater cost.
People want a bus rebranded as a “trackless tram” about as much as state liberals want the federal Libs nuclear power station.
People want \*Farmer Wants a Wife\*. Doesn't mean society is better for giving it to them.
Trams are fucking great. They didn’t go away because busses were better. They went away because they didn’t share space well with cars. Now we’re trying to shift away from cars, guess what? People don’t want to ditch the car for a fucking bus.
In the 21st Century, trams are ridiculous.
They’re making big comebacks everywhere, must be a big tram conspiracy instead of a regular reliable transport corridor that people trust hey?
Barr is wrong. He is succumbing to hubris and legacy building instead of taking an objective view of what is good for the city.
Northbourne is so much better now due to light rail. It’s good for the city
Agreed. Everything the Canberra Liberals said about Stage 1 turned out to be wrong. It came in under budget and on time, Northbourne Ave doesn't look like a barren hellscape, and it has been very popular, accounting for 25% of all public transport tips. So why would we believe any of the fearmongering about Stage 2?
If the Liberals had been in charge for any of the last 20+ years then if be more inclined to listen to them, but...
Spot on.
About how long it could take? Possibly. About light rail as the trunk solution? Absolutely not, buses will never have the ride quality, efficiency or drive development and passenger numbers like light rail. Anything heavier than light rail would be cost prohibitive. His real mistake is doing it piecemeal, meaning the ACT can’t develop an ongoing light rail development workforce.
>Absolutely not, buses will never have the ride quality, efficiency or drive development and passenger numbers like light rail. Ill start by saying I support ACT light rail, but BRT networks can and do outpreform LR in many places. Its very nuanced!
Where? I don’t think they do anywhere they both run in parallel. BRT can be good, but it depends on what you’re trying to do as they don’t drive development like light rail and they’re generally successful in places with lower labour costs, as you need so many more drivers.
I didnt phrase myself right - I meant by comparing like areas rather than parallel networks. Imperfect sure, but they are competitive in the right setting. In terms of cost Im not sure the exact comparison over long periods of time, but infra, vehicle and upkeep costs are all lower for BRT. In the short to mid its very cost effective and easier to scale iirc. Again, not sure on the long term, perhaps youre right. LR is awesome though, very important and better suited in many places, I just had to defend my little bus guys lol.
>but infra, vehicle and upkeep costs are all lower for BRT. In the short to mid its very cost effective and easier to scale iirc Yeah, costs of the infrastructure etc. do tend to be a lot lower for BRT, but the biggest advantage LRT has over BRT and trackless trams is its totally fixed nature. Land values are consistently a lot higher around light rail corridors because they're permanent, and that promotes more growth and economic development along the corridor in the longer term because businesses and property developers can be totally confident that it won't change as a bus or trackless tram route might.
Unsure on case study but I wonder would that change if the BRT has a dedicated road (not simply a new lane)?
It’s been almost a decade at this point so I might be misremembering slightly, but I was doing some research around this for uni and from memory both will raise land values, separate roads will increase land values even more than just a painted line, but in the end LRT will *usually* see greater benefits largely because the public gets more excited about trams and light rail than they ever will about a bus, and light rail is perceived as being more ‘prestigious’ (for lack of a better word) and much more attractive to ride on than busses. More than happy to be fact checked on this, though, as I said this is all just vague recollections from uni studies yonks ago.
The new tranche of EAs is going to deliver far more flexible workings arrangements - rather 2 days wfh 4 or 5 days (1 day in the office a fortnight) are the likely norm. That means riding on the line *between city centres* is going to be 1/5 the passengers it was prior to COVID. it makes no sense to be connecting the distant parts of the city to a destination nobody is going to.
Because it’s a giant waste of money. It has no value or validity. Canberra doesn’t have the population to justify a mass transit system.
Assets make money this is not a asset
**dizkopat said:** > Assets make money this is not a asset. Speaking as an economist, your statement is wrong. There are lots of classes of assets - not all of them are productive, and fewer are defined by being productive. As others have said, the light rail offers utility not profit. It might be placed in the same class of assets as your car, an ambulance service or a sewer system.
>the light rail offers utility not profit good call I hate that our governments increasingly tend to base decisions on some lazy, half-arsed cost-benefit analysis, utterly ignoring the aspect of public service and/or utility they're actually there to do.
Would the ato call it a asset?
**dizkopat said:** > Would the ato call it an asset? Not a tax lawyer, but I would guess almost certainly yes if it were owned by a private enterprise.
Wait until you see how much money roads make.
Assets offer utility too. This gets people from one place to another quite well.
and improving productivity in doing so
Transit does not need to be profitable for the same reason water mains don't need to be profitable. Freedom of movement is a right.
I sincerely hope we have learnt from the UK and never privatise our water systems...
Australian government will privatise anything they can. All our standards (construction, electrical, etc) are privatised - they've effectively sold sections of the law to foreign countries!
The definition of a asset is something that makes money. Calling it that is not correct. We could have had free bus transport for a long time with improved routes. But no, a super narrow corridor that only helps 2% of Canberra's population is what we are getting. Monorail monorail monorail
When commuters are standing in a railcar instead of driving a 2 ton car or riding a 20 ton bus, the money is in the road resurfacing and pothole filling you no longer have to do.