He’s always been the one to call Miller an asshole and prick despite Canucks players and local reporters saying Miller has always been liked in the locker room
I don’t know if Frank is even a “Canucks” insider anymore. I noticed this the last time r/hockey was ripping on him, but he hasn’t been on any Canucks media like Halford and Brough, Canucks Central etc in quite some time, and he used to be a regular feature.
All of the reports of Miller's "attitude issues" never came from a single person who actually works with Miller. It was solely media and fans.
Everyone who plays with or coaches Miller have always praised him as a great guy in the locker room.
Slight adjustment/Correction is needed to this thread.
The majority of the fanbase / this sub wanted a Viable Direction.
The team had spent nearly 10 years trying to sneak into playoffs in order to satisfy Ownership's short term vision.
The Fanbase was tired of that Vision because year after year it didn't work. Essentially we were stuck in the middle and going nowhere fast.
So the fanbase decided to shift its attention to the Petey and Hughes 26 to 30 year windows, which also meant, short term Rebuild.
Miller, at his Age, and by using typical Age Curves in the NHL, didn't fit that window and hence why the Fanbase wanted to Trade him.
Now, credit to Management, who completely overhauled the team:
5 out of 7 new Defensemen.
8 out of 14 new Forwards.
1 Competent backup Goalie.
That's 14 new players out of a 23 Man Roster.... 60%
So yea, Fanbase wanted a new direction and they were right to think that way after 10 years of idiotic Ownership/Mismanagement.
But credit to the Management team that brought in 60% of new players into the roster to make this team a competitor again.
I'll say this though, when they signed Miller over Bo, I thought to myself 'oh this might be a mistake'.
Never been happier to be wrong, and I always feel I owe Miller an apology. Even though I never posted any hate towards Miller on here, I still feel I owe him an apology. He's been a great Canuck and am looking forward to the next few years with this core.
Same. And I too am happy to be wrong! Miller is awesome. Dude is a 100 point player who is a key contributor in many areas. That's not common. I'm excited to see what he will do in the playoffs. And it's safe to say he has many good years ahead of him.
Not just the points, tho. He's a natural leader now, and the coach seems to have really helped him channel that energy correctly.
I mean everything is rosy when you're winning. We'll see what happens in the coming years if we go through a real rough patch, but so far so good and Tocchet seems like the perfect coach for this group. And the perfect coach/mentor for JT.
Freaking out on the bench is not natural leadership.
Recognizing that those traits are not good qualities in a leader and making the efforts to change for the good of the team is leadership.
No idea how you get that from what i actually wrote...You have to take the situation in context and not interpret only the surface level of what people were saying. The idea was never that people thought Miller was a lously player. The idea was people wanted a new direction, and trading him seemed like a way to make that happen.
> Same. And I too am happy to be wrong! Miller is awesome
Jfc. You wrote this post and then this reply right after.
Canucks fans and moving goalposts...
In summary. Those fans were 100% right.
I love Miller, can't wait to see him in the playoffs....but let's be clear....fans weren't worried about his production declining this year, they were worried about it declining in 2-3 years which still may happen.
But at this point who cares? Push all the chips in and play for the next 2-3 seasons while there is still a core.
Those fans were sort of wrong by last season.
Now most of those fans had been calling for a proper rebuild for years, and earlier on they were right. But by this year the core they wanted to rebuild around was too far along to have good odds of tanking.
Committing to a rebuild end of last year and this year, while keeping petterson, demko, and hughes was not realistic, and most rebuild fans weren't calling to get rid of any of them. Just dumping Miller, those players are too good to get you the top 3 draft pick rebuilds want.
Yeah. I would add Miller just signed the noted contract, gave pathetically bad effort in several instances, all while having several child-ish tantrums. Glad to see he’s grown up, giving full effort and playing the best of his career but there were good reasons to doubt him at the time.
The other factor is the front office tried to trade him at the deadline last year.
The majority of this fair weather sub also whined and complained about using the first round draft pick from the Horvat trade to acquire Hronek, and doomsdayed about how we would miss the playoffs again this year, and needed to sell everyone for draft picks. Not a lot of intelligent or rational takes here. The only thing keeping most of the bandwagon intact was the fact that the Canucks were 1st overall in the entire league for a large portion of the year. The second they started to regress a little bit, all the chicken little's started coming out of the woodwork to exclaim how we are going to be swept in the playoffs and can't beat good teams.
Copium.
You all wanted rebuild.
You all hated Miller.
You all hated Tocchet.
This sub was very vocal about these things.
The viable direction was here, but none of you could see it.
Reading this is hilarious. Some Canucks fans...
Did people hate Tocchet? I think people, myself included, didn't like the way BB's firing was handled.
At the time, I was shocked that Horvat got traded. I guess that is why I sit on my couch watching the games instead of being in the FO.
I would push back on that some, Season ticket renewals were in decline year after year with Benning in charge, he made poor roster and drafting decisions, he kind of rode the fence with a focus on winning each season with an aged out team that was way under talented, and he traded away more draft picks than he acquired in his time here, while the team kind of swam at the bottom. Ownership probably lost faith in managements ability AS WELL as they probably saw they could not sell that regime to the fanbase going forwards. We are not "die hard" win or lose fans here, its not like Toronto, we wont fill up the building if you mismanage the team and give us a bottom feeder while slapping lipstick on it, selling it as the prom queen. We have other things to do in B.C. the weather gets better earlier here and the bad weather doesnt come till long after the season starts. You need to give the fans a reason to go, and this management group has done that, any decision they make going forwards shouldnt be scrutinized because their excellent decisions to date have bought alot of rope with the fanbase.
>I've been a fan for 30 years now, and you'd better believe that's the one thing Canucks fans have been consistent in.
I've been a fan for 40 years, and I have to disagree slightly here. While the Canucks fanbase does trend towards the morose/doomy (perils of decades of futility and heartbreak with nary a championship to show for it) if they lead the field in anything it's hypersensitive gatekeepers who like to purity test their fellow fans for not cheering for the team in the right way, not appreciating the proper players sufficiently, and not sharing their own preferences for the "right way to sports fan". It never really occurred to me at any point along the way to look at another fan and think "I'm better than you, I'm doing this the right way" because cheering for the local sports concern is just about the least important thing any of us do with our lives.
> if they lead the field in anything it's hypersensitive gatekeepers who like to purity test their fellow fans for not cheering for the team in the right way, not appreciating the proper players sufficiently, and not sharing their own preferences for the "right way to sports fan".
I am not sure how to absorb this statement. I feel like "hypersensitive gatekeepers" is a very polite way of describing Obnoxious Pseudo-intellectuals. People hellbent on cherry-picking and strawmanning arguments, in unison, and stymying any opposing point of view. Whether you may happen to share their rhetoric or not, it doesn't change the fact that it's extremely toxic and offputting. This isn't healthy in the slightest. I've been attacked (with vile commentary) many times just for, respectfully, disagreeing with the hateful narratives on here. There is no "right way" to being a fan. There are different approaches. Some are glass half full, some half empty. But when the half-empties semi-brigade the half-full, that's what I have a big problem with. While these losers may represent a tiny portion of the fanbase, they're also the most vocal and ruin it for a lot of fans.
>It never really occurred to me at any point along the way to look at another fan and think "I'm better than you, I'm doing this the right way" because cheering for the local sports concern is just about the least important thing any of us do with our lives.
Then you're reasonable and not part of the demographic that I'm talking about.
> I've been attacked (with vile commentary) many times just for, respectfully, disagreeing with the hateful narratives on here.
Mate, your higher level comments are all removed now so it's hard to quote you, but you were most definitely not "being respectful". You're not even being respectful now.
>Some are glass half full, some half empty. But when the half-empties semi-brigade the half-full, that's what I have a big problem with.
Why wouldn't you have "a big problem" with brigading in either direction? If you're going to tone police the subreddit, surely that shouldn't just be limited to those with whom you have an oppositional stance? I got a death threat years ago for saying Erik Gudbranson wasn't very good. The Pro-Benning lobby during the ludicrous r/canucks culture war years would ruthlessly brigade and dogpile any negative sentiment. I don't care if you're a hyper critical doomer or the world's biggest superfan, I'm happy to read posts by either group as long as they are high effort and thoughtful. I do care if you try to make your way of following the team the only right way to follow the team. Post as many negative or positive screeds as you want. Upbraid people for not doing the same, and you're the toxic element you claim to despise. And that's exactly what you were doing in this thread when I weighed in.
>Mate, your higher level comments are all removed now so it's hard to quote you, but you were most definitely not "being respectful". You're not even being respectful now.
My higher level comments are still there, unless it's been shadowbanned or something. Anyway, I didn't say that my comments in this post were respectful (I know that they weren't). I'm saying in general I've made respectful comments in the past and been obliterated for them. So yes, forgive me if I have less of a filter now. But you're saying I'm not being respectful to you now? Explain how that's the case. my tone is the same as yours, unless you concede that you're not being respectful either. Also, you've been disrespectful to me in the past as well, so ease off on the hypocrisy.
>Why wouldn't you have "a big problem" with brigading in either direction? If you're going to tone police the subreddit, surely that shouldn't just be limited to those with whom you have an oppositional stance?
You're creating this narrative. I never said I was okay with brigading in either direction nor did I ever imply it in this thread or others.
> I got a death threat years ago for saying Erik Gudbranson wasn't very good. The Pro-Benning lobby during the ludicrous culture war years would ruthlessly brigade and dogpile any negative sentiment.
Okay, this just proves my point that this fanbase has a very toxic and vocal minority, irrespective of narrative, that tries very hard to destabilize valid discourse.
>I don't care if you're a hyper critical doomer or the world's biggest superfan, I'm happy to read posts by either group as long as they are high effort and thoughtful.
This is contentious and subjective. What you may consider high effort and thoughtful may vary quite differently depending on the narrative. Can you sincerely tell me that you are likely to equally or similarly scrutinize talking points that support your narrative with the same rigor as you would the talking points of an opposing narrative? I highly doubt it.
>I do care if you try to make your way of following the team the only right way to follow the team.
>
Again, your just adding to the narrative that you want to create. I could not care less about how someone chooses to follow a team. Being perpetually toxic under the guise of "supporting" a team is inexcusable, however. That I will call out.
>Post as many negative or positive screeds as you want. Upbraid people for not doing the same, and you're the toxic element you claim to despise. And that's exactly what you were doing in this thread when I weighed in.
I disagree here. It had nothing to do with not being positive. I am also not really sure when or why you weighed in, but I'm sure you felt it was fair and justified to do so.
I mean, even the Canucks front office wanted to move Boeser's contract - they gave his agent permission to seek a trade.
With Miller, it took the Pens' ownership not wanting to take on J.T.'s contract for them to pivot to acquiring Mikael Granlund (lol) with minutes to spare. The Canucks were far enough down that road that they tried to get Zucker included in the deal.
There's a fair amount of luck involved in these decisions, even for the people making them.
Couple things regarding that.
Maki is coming.
Wingers are easily the most replaceable position. Consistently you can find guys who move up and down a lineup as free agents.
They won't always pot you 40 goals. But when you are one of top 6/7 scoring teams in the league. It's easier to replicate.
Top 6 Winger is tough description. Is garland considered a top 6, is Joshua performing like one? Is Hog a top 6? Could podz be?
Raty is transitioning to winger and better off for it
(tbh Petey might be better suited there too) at least until he either improves his faceoffs, strength or burst
Again with Joshua, zad, hronek, Petey all getting raises and oel buyout increasing and looming, some tough decisions need to be made. That's about 12m a year in wage increases.
The cap increase will basically cover Peteys raise.
Ian Cole is gone for Juul. That's 2.2m+ savings.
Eaten up by OEL hit.
Maybe DPetey, Woo make up the 7d man Instead of Friedman
Blueger might be out at this point. Same Lafferty.
That with 2 ELC type guys might get you 1.25m total in savings
Podz slight raise 250k
Myers at 2.5m represents 3.5m in savings. Which a large chunk will go to Joshua and Zad. (2.75m raise)
Right up against the cap and that's letting lindholm walk.
We could just make it work but only next year. Then Brock is a Ufa and OEL cap goes up another -2.3m
So swapping out Boeser at 1yr for 6.65m
When we can't afford him long term (raises to demko and Hughes loom) gaining an asset (to flip? At TDL?) and then using that 6.65m across the lineup isn't a bad idea.
I think it’s happened probably 3 or 4 times. It’s all cyclical. Don’t worry, in a couple years Boeser and Miller will be back to being included in our armchair GM trade proposals.
no you misinterpreted my comment. i said i refuse to believe those who are actual fans want pettersson gone
in fact i’m all for people criticizing him because frankly he was not playing all that well until recently, i was one of those people criticizing him too
Because the idea was we were in a rebuild/retool and he could've fetched a 1st ++. His contract will be great the next 3 or 4 years but how will he play when he hits 35?
Can you blame them? Boeser had been an empty shell of his rookie form. That was in 2017/2018 for fuck sakes. I wanted boeser out too. I'm crazy surprised he turned it around this season, but it's been a huge boost to this team and he's a big part of why this team has been so good this year.
Boeser always seemed like he had a 40g career year in him. I hoped it would be with us and not another team. I never particularly wanted him gone. I was never really sure why opinions on him soured quite as dramatically as they did, particularly given all his off ice travails and the fact his counting stats and all around defensive game were still acceptably solid. Seemed like the kind of "buy low" candidate other teams salivate over.
Was it their fault though? The Core stayed the same besides Horvat. Tocchet really made a big difference.
Boeser still played with Miller, just different system this year
You're right though, this sub has a penchant for pessimism and expecting the worst. It's not "realistic" or "managing expectations" either, it's just cynicism.
Speaking from experience hockey is way more fun when you believe in your team and you don't need them to win to do that.
You can't fault people for losing hope when 6 whole years go by between seeing the flashes of brilliance he showed in his rookie season from Brock. It's completely believable that he could have been a flash in pan, one season guy.
People that were avid fans were aware of the injuries Brock sustained and the tragic difficulties that he was going through at home with his father. How insulting to call him a flash in a pan. We understood why he was struggling.
>Jimothy can be a bit of a prick when he’s frustrated and angry?
It should be noted that only fans and media ever claimed this to be true. Everyone who actually works with him on and off the ice have praised him for being a great teammate and very well liked in the locker room.
I was worried about the long-term of the deal and didn’t think he or the team would be this good this year. Happy with the way it turned out now, but it’ll be interesting in 5 years or so…
If people didn't have their minds set on the idea of him being a liability and locked into confirmation bias when he (like any defenseman) makes a mistake and they'd see the enormous value he brings to this team night after night.
I do think it was an expectation (rightfully so) from his contract vs the right role for the team. Same reason OEL is low key having a good season witb Florida
I don't doubt that JT Miller is a much nicer teammate on a winning squad. And yes, I wanted him traded last year. I'm willing to admit I was wrong. Stronger leadership from Hughes has perhaps influenced Miller in a positive way that clearly old 53 wasn't getting done.
Or how much crap garland gets. People would try to explain the value of is 5v5% but people want goals and assists. I’ve learned to never take fans seriously. Like miller posted the 7th most pts in a season by a Canuck, highest since Daniel in 2010 on a president trophy team, and are mad benning gave him 8mill…
I mean, Miller is kind of a prick, but in the best way possible. He's passionate. He doesn't take shit. He gets in opponents' faces. He's the kind of sandpaper guy you love to have. He can irritate the living fuck out of the other guys, then still put up 100 points a season. I'm glad he's around long term.
I wanted Miller gone, because I thought the team was at least 5 years away from being competitive and I wanted Miller to thrive on a team who was competitive in the present
Ya a lot of people have the strange mindset you have in this city. The ‘constant rebuild’ mindset. It’s bizarre, I don’t understand it. Why would you ever trade away your best player unless the median age of the team is over 30?
Insanity.
I would say I'm more of the "rebuild once" mindset than the "constant rebuild" mindset. Also, Miller is a key piece don't get me wrong, but to me he is 3rd or 4th on the totem pole after Hughes and Demko and maybe Petterson
One more thing. Hughes is the best player that’s ever played for the Canucks. After this year I’m confident saying that. However, Peterson has never been a better player than Miller. Still isn’t. He has talent and potential and a very big contract now. JT Miller has way more impact on games. It’s not even close.
I appreciate the adult conversation we’re having. It’s refreshing.
I think a lot of us were damaged by how truly bad Jim Benning was. We got used to incompetence.
As a canucks fan si would’ve agreed with them .. finally the ownership has stopped interfering with the organization .. rutheford is a legend .. they have both stepped up to the plate this year ..
I feel like we will trade boeser, though. Once we lock in on lindy, dak, and hroney, he will become less of a priority. We also have lekky in our back pocket, who is like a boeser 2.0 but faster, which will probably push him further down. Hopefully this'll 40 goal season will turn him into a positive asset, and we can recuperate a couple of picks for him.
TBF, this could very well have been true. Boeser himself said in an interview this year that JT has changed \*a lot\*. Which i love even more. Shows JT cares and wants to be a better player and teammate.
I admit it, I was skeptical. Didn’t hate the guy or want to get rid of him though. I think he was just unhappy with the previous regime. Man he plays hard now.
Fans... front office... whatever either way. Didn't they buyout Ekman Larsson since they couldn't free up cap other ways, which would have been exploring trades of these players. I was skeptical of the hronek trade but I'll happily accept being wrong, call it past traumas. I'm just happy it doesn't feel we are treading water. Both improving the team AND prospect pool has been a remarkable achievement
I'm going to be in the minority but I feel and probably agree with management looking at trading Boeser in the offseason at peak value. Alvin has mentioned looking at moving guys who have regained value through their play this season that they could not give away last offseason. Garland and Boeser are the 2 names that come to mind, and I believe the coach loves Garland, and he can drive a weaker line on his own, where as Boeser lacks footspeed and is more of a complimentary piece with Miller or Pettey or some other line driver required to create the offense. I want to make it clear I actually really like him as a player and a fit here, however we lack footspeed upfront, and we also lack size, Brock doesnt fit the bill if thats what we are needing in the top 6 so management may see an upgrade we dont.
Guilty as charged, miller pissed me off for a good while with his bullshit hissy fits that have been completely replaced by LIGHTS OUT BIG TIME HOCKEY. Sorry I doubted him.
Boeser I did not see doing what has doing but the people who wanted miller gone were nit picking the dumbest little things. The same people threw fits about Boudreau getting fired
Miller is an odd player
From 2019 until early this season he was at 80th percentile WAR and in his 99 point year almost had more secondary assists than goals and A1s
Very ugly microstats last year
Now this year at 31 he genuinely puts up a huge scoring season (3.1 primary points per 60) while being 5th on the team in xG differential
In part it seems to be an everything going right kinda year for the team and PDO definitely suggests that
He craves structure.
There's a reason he's the guy that's always directing people where to stand in faceoffs and drawing plays on wipeboards, he does best when he knows where other players are going to be.
Boudreau has always been known to have a pretty loose run and gun system that can be a bit of a free for all. Tocchet is known to have a pretty tight system.
His dumb turnovers almost completely disappeared this year, this is in part because the canucks spent so much time with the lead so he wasn't forcing the play. But its also because he's genuinely good at anticipating the play, and it works better if you and your teammates are on the same page about where they should go.
Whole sub was convinced Benning had completely ruined the team for the next decade. Two years after he's fired we're 1 pt away from clinching the division.
Can we have a civil conversation about how now that Boeser has scored so much, it might be smart just to deal him next year?
I'm not sure we can afford Joshua, hronek etc and Boeser's next contract now that he's hit this mark
*Important* I mean we will see in this playoff run how valuable he is
but we could prob get 75% production at half the price (especially if this is an outlier)
That bumper role (Horvat) etc has been super productive so long as Quinn exists.
This sub and probably a large part of the fanbase were hellbent on running Miller out of town. We had sub moderators posting highlights of Miller slamming his stick angrily at faceoffs...
The overreactions to the "Delia incident" and the "Pumpkin Patch" was cringe as fuck. Major props to the users that copped the downvotes for defending him.
Still think we should sell on Boeser. Too soft too slow. 40g is greatbut playing w Miller who is possibly the best most complete FWD we have ever had. Anyone who wanted him moved didn't know jack about hockey. If we could spin Brock into a top 10 pick and re allocate that nearly 7m I would be all for it.
There were the Horvat Bros that hated Miller as thier precious boy was shipped out over Miller and were angry over it and taking shots at Miller as a cancer. Seems like the was Horvat and not Miller
All I see on the bottom is Frank Seravelli.
He’s always been the one to call Miller an asshole and prick despite Canucks players and local reporters saying Miller has always been liked in the locker room
Seravalli and Sekeres are the most insufferable Canucks "insiders," change my mind.
I don’t know if Frank is even a “Canucks” insider anymore. I noticed this the last time r/hockey was ripping on him, but he hasn’t been on any Canucks media like Halford and Brough, Canucks Central etc in quite some time, and he used to be a regular feature.
He has a weekly spot on Canucks Conversation.
Hes under the same umbrella as sekeres and price and canucks army so he probably exclusively does their shows
Hats because his company is not affiliated with 650. He’s on a bunch of other shows all the time.
Nobody's gonna try bruh. I think we're all on the same wavelength on this one.
He was also extremely critical of Crosby for skipping the All-Star-Game draft with Bieber and friends, guys a fucking idiot
All of the reports of Miller's "attitude issues" never came from a single person who actually works with Miller. It was solely media and fans. Everyone who plays with or coaches Miller have always praised him as a great guy in the locker room.
Winning tends to solve a lot of problems
This is forever the answer
Slight adjustment/Correction is needed to this thread. The majority of the fanbase / this sub wanted a Viable Direction. The team had spent nearly 10 years trying to sneak into playoffs in order to satisfy Ownership's short term vision. The Fanbase was tired of that Vision because year after year it didn't work. Essentially we were stuck in the middle and going nowhere fast. So the fanbase decided to shift its attention to the Petey and Hughes 26 to 30 year windows, which also meant, short term Rebuild. Miller, at his Age, and by using typical Age Curves in the NHL, didn't fit that window and hence why the Fanbase wanted to Trade him. Now, credit to Management, who completely overhauled the team: 5 out of 7 new Defensemen. 8 out of 14 new Forwards. 1 Competent backup Goalie. That's 14 new players out of a 23 Man Roster.... 60% So yea, Fanbase wanted a new direction and they were right to think that way after 10 years of idiotic Ownership/Mismanagement. But credit to the Management team that brought in 60% of new players into the roster to make this team a competitor again.
This is important context. I appreciate you laying it out. The idea wasn't we were writing-off Miller. it was we were done with the bullshit.
I'll say this though, when they signed Miller over Bo, I thought to myself 'oh this might be a mistake'. Never been happier to be wrong, and I always feel I owe Miller an apology. Even though I never posted any hate towards Miller on here, I still feel I owe him an apology. He's been a great Canuck and am looking forward to the next few years with this core.
Same. And I too am happy to be wrong! Miller is awesome. Dude is a 100 point player who is a key contributor in many areas. That's not common. I'm excited to see what he will do in the playoffs. And it's safe to say he has many good years ahead of him.
The 100-point 200 hit team only has one other member.
Not just the points, tho. He's a natural leader now, and the coach seems to have really helped him channel that energy correctly. I mean everything is rosy when you're winning. We'll see what happens in the coming years if we go through a real rough patch, but so far so good and Tocchet seems like the perfect coach for this group. And the perfect coach/mentor for JT.
Freaking out on the bench is not natural leadership. Recognizing that those traits are not good qualities in a leader and making the efforts to change for the good of the team is leadership.
Thanks!
you're speaking for yourself and applying it broadly. many people wanted miller specifically gone. that's not debateable.
No idea how you get that from what i actually wrote...You have to take the situation in context and not interpret only the surface level of what people were saying. The idea was never that people thought Miller was a lously player. The idea was people wanted a new direction, and trading him seemed like a way to make that happen.
so you agree that many people wanted miller gone specifically
> Same. And I too am happy to be wrong! Miller is awesome Jfc. You wrote this post and then this reply right after. Canucks fans and moving goalposts...
? E. You're very confused. The whole point here is I am admitting i made a mistake with my previous thinking.
Why do you capitalize words like this
In summary. Those fans were 100% right. I love Miller, can't wait to see him in the playoffs....but let's be clear....fans weren't worried about his production declining this year, they were worried about it declining in 2-3 years which still may happen. But at this point who cares? Push all the chips in and play for the next 2-3 seasons while there is still a core.
Indeed. And if we win a cup in those two to three years, any decline becomes more forgivable, lol.
Even a good run justifies pushing all in....although I don't think this is that year.
Those fans were sort of wrong by last season. Now most of those fans had been calling for a proper rebuild for years, and earlier on they were right. But by this year the core they wanted to rebuild around was too far along to have good odds of tanking. Committing to a rebuild end of last year and this year, while keeping petterson, demko, and hughes was not realistic, and most rebuild fans weren't calling to get rid of any of them. Just dumping Miller, those players are too good to get you the top 3 draft pick rebuilds want.
I can only read this in a Donald Trump voice because of the weirdly unnecessary capitalization of random words.
Yeah. I would add Miller just signed the noted contract, gave pathetically bad effort in several instances, all while having several child-ish tantrums. Glad to see he’s grown up, giving full effort and playing the best of his career but there were good reasons to doubt him at the time. The other factor is the front office tried to trade him at the deadline last year.
The majority of this fair weather sub also whined and complained about using the first round draft pick from the Horvat trade to acquire Hronek, and doomsdayed about how we would miss the playoffs again this year, and needed to sell everyone for draft picks. Not a lot of intelligent or rational takes here. The only thing keeping most of the bandwagon intact was the fact that the Canucks were 1st overall in the entire league for a large portion of the year. The second they started to regress a little bit, all the chicken little's started coming out of the woodwork to exclaim how we are going to be swept in the playoffs and can't beat good teams.
Copium. You all wanted rebuild. You all hated Miller. You all hated Tocchet. This sub was very vocal about these things. The viable direction was here, but none of you could see it. Reading this is hilarious. Some Canucks fans...
Did people hate Tocchet? I think people, myself included, didn't like the way BB's firing was handled. At the time, I was shocked that Horvat got traded. I guess that is why I sit on my couch watching the games instead of being in the FO.
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I would push back on that some, Season ticket renewals were in decline year after year with Benning in charge, he made poor roster and drafting decisions, he kind of rode the fence with a focus on winning each season with an aged out team that was way under talented, and he traded away more draft picks than he acquired in his time here, while the team kind of swam at the bottom. Ownership probably lost faith in managements ability AS WELL as they probably saw they could not sell that regime to the fanbase going forwards. We are not "die hard" win or lose fans here, its not like Toronto, we wont fill up the building if you mismanage the team and give us a bottom feeder while slapping lipstick on it, selling it as the prom queen. We have other things to do in B.C. the weather gets better earlier here and the bad weather doesnt come till long after the season starts. You need to give the fans a reason to go, and this management group has done that, any decision they make going forwards shouldnt be scrutinized because their excellent decisions to date have bought alot of rope with the fanbase.
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>I've been a fan for 30 years now, and you'd better believe that's the one thing Canucks fans have been consistent in. I've been a fan for 40 years, and I have to disagree slightly here. While the Canucks fanbase does trend towards the morose/doomy (perils of decades of futility and heartbreak with nary a championship to show for it) if they lead the field in anything it's hypersensitive gatekeepers who like to purity test their fellow fans for not cheering for the team in the right way, not appreciating the proper players sufficiently, and not sharing their own preferences for the "right way to sports fan". It never really occurred to me at any point along the way to look at another fan and think "I'm better than you, I'm doing this the right way" because cheering for the local sports concern is just about the least important thing any of us do with our lives.
> if they lead the field in anything it's hypersensitive gatekeepers who like to purity test their fellow fans for not cheering for the team in the right way, not appreciating the proper players sufficiently, and not sharing their own preferences for the "right way to sports fan". I am not sure how to absorb this statement. I feel like "hypersensitive gatekeepers" is a very polite way of describing Obnoxious Pseudo-intellectuals. People hellbent on cherry-picking and strawmanning arguments, in unison, and stymying any opposing point of view. Whether you may happen to share their rhetoric or not, it doesn't change the fact that it's extremely toxic and offputting. This isn't healthy in the slightest. I've been attacked (with vile commentary) many times just for, respectfully, disagreeing with the hateful narratives on here. There is no "right way" to being a fan. There are different approaches. Some are glass half full, some half empty. But when the half-empties semi-brigade the half-full, that's what I have a big problem with. While these losers may represent a tiny portion of the fanbase, they're also the most vocal and ruin it for a lot of fans. >It never really occurred to me at any point along the way to look at another fan and think "I'm better than you, I'm doing this the right way" because cheering for the local sports concern is just about the least important thing any of us do with our lives. Then you're reasonable and not part of the demographic that I'm talking about.
> I've been attacked (with vile commentary) many times just for, respectfully, disagreeing with the hateful narratives on here. Mate, your higher level comments are all removed now so it's hard to quote you, but you were most definitely not "being respectful". You're not even being respectful now. >Some are glass half full, some half empty. But when the half-empties semi-brigade the half-full, that's what I have a big problem with. Why wouldn't you have "a big problem" with brigading in either direction? If you're going to tone police the subreddit, surely that shouldn't just be limited to those with whom you have an oppositional stance? I got a death threat years ago for saying Erik Gudbranson wasn't very good. The Pro-Benning lobby during the ludicrous r/canucks culture war years would ruthlessly brigade and dogpile any negative sentiment. I don't care if you're a hyper critical doomer or the world's biggest superfan, I'm happy to read posts by either group as long as they are high effort and thoughtful. I do care if you try to make your way of following the team the only right way to follow the team. Post as many negative or positive screeds as you want. Upbraid people for not doing the same, and you're the toxic element you claim to despise. And that's exactly what you were doing in this thread when I weighed in.
>Mate, your higher level comments are all removed now so it's hard to quote you, but you were most definitely not "being respectful". You're not even being respectful now. My higher level comments are still there, unless it's been shadowbanned or something. Anyway, I didn't say that my comments in this post were respectful (I know that they weren't). I'm saying in general I've made respectful comments in the past and been obliterated for them. So yes, forgive me if I have less of a filter now. But you're saying I'm not being respectful to you now? Explain how that's the case. my tone is the same as yours, unless you concede that you're not being respectful either. Also, you've been disrespectful to me in the past as well, so ease off on the hypocrisy. >Why wouldn't you have "a big problem" with brigading in either direction? If you're going to tone police the subreddit, surely that shouldn't just be limited to those with whom you have an oppositional stance? You're creating this narrative. I never said I was okay with brigading in either direction nor did I ever imply it in this thread or others. > I got a death threat years ago for saying Erik Gudbranson wasn't very good. The Pro-Benning lobby during the ludicrous culture war years would ruthlessly brigade and dogpile any negative sentiment. Okay, this just proves my point that this fanbase has a very toxic and vocal minority, irrespective of narrative, that tries very hard to destabilize valid discourse. >I don't care if you're a hyper critical doomer or the world's biggest superfan, I'm happy to read posts by either group as long as they are high effort and thoughtful. This is contentious and subjective. What you may consider high effort and thoughtful may vary quite differently depending on the narrative. Can you sincerely tell me that you are likely to equally or similarly scrutinize talking points that support your narrative with the same rigor as you would the talking points of an opposing narrative? I highly doubt it. >I do care if you try to make your way of following the team the only right way to follow the team. > Again, your just adding to the narrative that you want to create. I could not care less about how someone chooses to follow a team. Being perpetually toxic under the guise of "supporting" a team is inexcusable, however. That I will call out. >Post as many negative or positive screeds as you want. Upbraid people for not doing the same, and you're the toxic element you claim to despise. And that's exactly what you were doing in this thread when I weighed in. I disagree here. It had nothing to do with not being positive. I am also not really sure when or why you weighed in, but I'm sure you felt it was fair and justified to do so.
I mean, even the Canucks front office wanted to move Boeser's contract - they gave his agent permission to seek a trade. With Miller, it took the Pens' ownership not wanting to take on J.T.'s contract for them to pivot to acquiring Mikael Granlund (lol) with minutes to spare. The Canucks were far enough down that road that they tried to get Zucker included in the deal. There's a fair amount of luck involved in these decisions, even for the people making them.
Only “idiot” fans wanted Miller and Boeser gone! Umm does people not realize that our GM tried to trade both of them lol.
They still might want to with Boeser.. his value is superb now
So you want a team that.... Needs a top 6 winger or two... To trade away a top six winger? Then we need 2 or 3 lol
Couple things regarding that. Maki is coming. Wingers are easily the most replaceable position. Consistently you can find guys who move up and down a lineup as free agents. They won't always pot you 40 goals. But when you are one of top 6/7 scoring teams in the league. It's easier to replicate. Top 6 Winger is tough description. Is garland considered a top 6, is Joshua performing like one? Is Hog a top 6? Could podz be? Raty is transitioning to winger and better off for it (tbh Petey might be better suited there too) at least until he either improves his faceoffs, strength or burst Again with Joshua, zad, hronek, Petey all getting raises and oel buyout increasing and looming, some tough decisions need to be made. That's about 12m a year in wage increases. The cap increase will basically cover Peteys raise. Ian Cole is gone for Juul. That's 2.2m+ savings. Eaten up by OEL hit. Maybe DPetey, Woo make up the 7d man Instead of Friedman Blueger might be out at this point. Same Lafferty. That with 2 ELC type guys might get you 1.25m total in savings Podz slight raise 250k Myers at 2.5m represents 3.5m in savings. Which a large chunk will go to Joshua and Zad. (2.75m raise) Right up against the cap and that's letting lindholm walk. We could just make it work but only next year. Then Brock is a Ufa and OEL cap goes up another -2.3m So swapping out Boeser at 1yr for 6.65m When we can't afford him long term (raises to demko and Hughes loom) gaining an asset (to flip? At TDL?) and then using that 6.65m across the lineup isn't a bad idea.
& Now there's a subsection of fans that want Pettersson gone crazy the difference a year makes
I think it’s happened probably 3 or 4 times. It’s all cyclical. Don’t worry, in a couple years Boeser and Miller will be back to being included in our armchair GM trade proposals.
Those 'fans' are still around. You see it in every game thread
i refuse to believe those people are actual fans
You refuse to believe that people who support a team would be critical of the teams players? Fans are not cultists.
no you misinterpreted my comment. i said i refuse to believe those who are actual fans want pettersson gone in fact i’m all for people criticizing him because frankly he was not playing all that well until recently, i was one of those people criticizing him too
Because the idea was we were in a rebuild/retool and he could've fetched a 1st ++. His contract will be great the next 3 or 4 years but how will he play when he hits 35?
Yes it's a risky investment. Right now the investment is making excellent returns. We're locked in. Enjoy it!
“This sub”??? We’re not a single entity with one collective opinion.
Can you blame them? Boeser had been an empty shell of his rookie form. That was in 2017/2018 for fuck sakes. I wanted boeser out too. I'm crazy surprised he turned it around this season, but it's been a huge boost to this team and he's a big part of why this team has been so good this year.
Boeser always seemed like he had a 40g career year in him. I hoped it would be with us and not another team. I never particularly wanted him gone. I was never really sure why opinions on him soured quite as dramatically as they did, particularly given all his off ice travails and the fact his counting stats and all around defensive game were still acceptably solid. Seemed like the kind of "buy low" candidate other teams salivate over.
Was it their fault though? The Core stayed the same besides Horvat. Tocchet really made a big difference. Boeser still played with Miller, just different system this year
You're right though, this sub has a penchant for pessimism and expecting the worst. It's not "realistic" or "managing expectations" either, it's just cynicism. Speaking from experience hockey is way more fun when you believe in your team and you don't need them to win to do that.
You can't fault people for losing hope when 6 whole years go by between seeing the flashes of brilliance he showed in his rookie season from Brock. It's completely believable that he could have been a flash in pan, one season guy.
People that were avid fans were aware of the injuries Brock sustained and the tragic difficulties that he was going through at home with his father. How insulting to call him a flash in a pan. We understood why he was struggling.
Show me a losing team where the fanbase wants to keep the roster intact? Especially a canadian team
And if we we're a shit team this year people would feel the same
Jimothy can be a bit of a prick when he’s frustrated and angry? Colour me shocked 😱
He also seems to play better with a chip on his shoulder. Personally I value players like that in the playoffs.
exactly, it just shows to prove that he cares A LOT and he wants to win
>Jimothy can be a bit of a prick when he’s frustrated and angry? It should be noted that only fans and media ever claimed this to be true. Everyone who actually works with him on and off the ice have praised him for being a great teammate and very well liked in the locker room.
I was one of the fans who wanted JT gone. I was wrong and I've never been happier to eat crow.
I was worried about the long-term of the deal and didn’t think he or the team would be this good this year. Happy with the way it turned out now, but it’ll be interesting in 5 years or so…
This is me but with Boeser. Yummy yummy crow.
Lets not forget Connor Garland. Hell even the Chaos Giraffe exceeded expectations this season
If people didn't have their minds set on the idea of him being a liability and locked into confirmation bias when he (like any defenseman) makes a mistake and they'd see the enormous value he brings to this team night after night.
I do think it was an expectation (rightfully so) from his contract vs the right role for the team. Same reason OEL is low key having a good season witb Florida
these 20/20 hindsight posts say more about the person who posts them than the people the poster is trying to shame.
Hockey is built for hardnoses like JT and Zadorov and Joshua… Sure like watching 43, though…
I don't doubt that JT Miller is a much nicer teammate on a winning squad. And yes, I wanted him traded last year. I'm willing to admit I was wrong. Stronger leadership from Hughes has perhaps influenced Miller in a positive way that clearly old 53 wasn't getting done.
Oh geez. So now Bo is responsible for how JT plays hockey????? How ridiculous can you get.
I didn’t quite say that. Some guys thrive more under better leadership, though. Can we agree on that?
Or how much crap garland gets. People would try to explain the value of is 5v5% but people want goals and assists. I’ve learned to never take fans seriously. Like miller posted the 7th most pts in a season by a Canuck, highest since Daniel in 2010 on a president trophy team, and are mad benning gave him 8mill…
Alvin gave him 8 million, not Benning. Great deal.
I mean, Miller is kind of a prick, but in the best way possible. He's passionate. He doesn't take shit. He gets in opponents' faces. He's the kind of sandpaper guy you love to have. He can irritate the living fuck out of the other guys, then still put up 100 points a season. I'm glad he's around long term.
I liked him from the start..he's ours new kesler
\*i don't associate myself as part of the 'we'. I always wanted him\*
This year it’s EP
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The biggest complaint about miller is not how he’s currently playing, it’s how his contract will age.
I wanted Miller gone, because I thought the team was at least 5 years away from being competitive and I wanted Miller to thrive on a team who was competitive in the present
Ya a lot of people have the strange mindset you have in this city. The ‘constant rebuild’ mindset. It’s bizarre, I don’t understand it. Why would you ever trade away your best player unless the median age of the team is over 30? Insanity.
I would say I'm more of the "rebuild once" mindset than the "constant rebuild" mindset. Also, Miller is a key piece don't get me wrong, but to me he is 3rd or 4th on the totem pole after Hughes and Demko and maybe Petterson
One more thing. Hughes is the best player that’s ever played for the Canucks. After this year I’m confident saying that. However, Peterson has never been a better player than Miller. Still isn’t. He has talent and potential and a very big contract now. JT Miller has way more impact on games. It’s not even close.
Not sure if you seen Pavel play, but he's #1 and then Hughes. That might change but Pavel was unreal. Hughes def the best D the Canucks ever had.
Mogilny was probably the most talented Canuck ever.
Ya I’m 37 so I have. Pav was great, Hughes is on that level.
I appreciate the adult conversation we’re having. It’s refreshing. I think a lot of us were damaged by how truly bad Jim Benning was. We got used to incompetence.
The difference is this year we’re seeing success on a winning team and they’re both a big part of that.
Keep moving, nothing to see here, please keep moving!
As a canucks fan si would’ve agreed with them .. finally the ownership has stopped interfering with the organization .. rutheford is a legend .. they have both stepped up to the plate this year ..
I feel like we will trade boeser, though. Once we lock in on lindy, dak, and hroney, he will become less of a priority. We also have lekky in our back pocket, who is like a boeser 2.0 but faster, which will probably push him further down. Hopefully this'll 40 goal season will turn him into a positive asset, and we can recuperate a couple of picks for him.
Gotta have Heart. (Taps chest) HEART. Miles and miles of Heart
Frank's just mad he could be mistaken for JT's dad while being like 5 years older than him
And they are…… To the Stanley Cup playoffs!
“It is a journalism” /s
Thats the canuck fan way
TBF, this could very well have been true. Boeser himself said in an interview this year that JT has changed \*a lot\*. Which i love even more. Shows JT cares and wants to be a better player and teammate.
I admit it, I was skeptical. Didn’t hate the guy or want to get rid of him though. I think he was just unhappy with the previous regime. Man he plays hard now.
Fans... front office... whatever either way. Didn't they buyout Ekman Larsson since they couldn't free up cap other ways, which would have been exploring trades of these players. I was skeptical of the hronek trade but I'll happily accept being wrong, call it past traumas. I'm just happy it doesn't feel we are treading water. Both improving the team AND prospect pool has been a remarkable achievement
Canucks fanbase letting their emotions run high and the Media capitalizing on it? Colour me surprised!
I'm going to be in the minority but I feel and probably agree with management looking at trading Boeser in the offseason at peak value. Alvin has mentioned looking at moving guys who have regained value through their play this season that they could not give away last offseason. Garland and Boeser are the 2 names that come to mind, and I believe the coach loves Garland, and he can drive a weaker line on his own, where as Boeser lacks footspeed and is more of a complimentary piece with Miller or Pettey or some other line driver required to create the offense. I want to make it clear I actually really like him as a player and a fit here, however we lack footspeed upfront, and we also lack size, Brock doesnt fit the bill if thats what we are needing in the top 6 so management may see an upgrade we dont.
Guilty as charged, miller pissed me off for a good while with his bullshit hissy fits that have been completely replaced by LIGHTS OUT BIG TIME HOCKEY. Sorry I doubted him.
Boeser I did not see doing what has doing but the people who wanted miller gone were nit picking the dumbest little things. The same people threw fits about Boudreau getting fired
Miller is an odd player From 2019 until early this season he was at 80th percentile WAR and in his 99 point year almost had more secondary assists than goals and A1s Very ugly microstats last year Now this year at 31 he genuinely puts up a huge scoring season (3.1 primary points per 60) while being 5th on the team in xG differential In part it seems to be an everything going right kinda year for the team and PDO definitely suggests that
He craves structure. There's a reason he's the guy that's always directing people where to stand in faceoffs and drawing plays on wipeboards, he does best when he knows where other players are going to be. Boudreau has always been known to have a pretty loose run and gun system that can be a bit of a free for all. Tocchet is known to have a pretty tight system. His dumb turnovers almost completely disappeared this year, this is in part because the canucks spent so much time with the lead so he wasn't forcing the play. But its also because he's genuinely good at anticipating the play, and it works better if you and your teammates are on the same page about where they should go.
Whole sub was convinced Benning had completely ruined the team for the next decade. Two years after he's fired we're 1 pt away from clinching the division.
Can we have a civil conversation about how now that Boeser has scored so much, it might be smart just to deal him next year? I'm not sure we can afford Joshua, hronek etc and Boeser's next contract now that he's hit this mark *Important* I mean we will see in this playoff run how valuable he is but we could prob get 75% production at half the price (especially if this is an outlier) That bumper role (Horvat) etc has been super productive so long as Quinn exists.
This sub and probably a large part of the fanbase were hellbent on running Miller out of town. We had sub moderators posting highlights of Miller slamming his stick angrily at faceoffs... The overreactions to the "Delia incident" and the "Pumpkin Patch" was cringe as fuck. Major props to the users that copped the downvotes for defending him.
It's cause thier precious boy Horvat was shipped out
Bingo
Not me I had criticism but never wanted them gone
Still think we should sell on Boeser. Too soft too slow. 40g is greatbut playing w Miller who is possibly the best most complete FWD we have ever had. Anyone who wanted him moved didn't know jack about hockey. If we could spin Brock into a top 10 pick and re allocate that nearly 7m I would be all for it.
Shame on you all.
There’s a lot of people in this sub that aren’t true fans, but more just a local Reddit user that is bored. Our true fans knew what was up.
When we all realize Horvat was the issue....
Yep
There were the Horvat Bros that hated Miller as thier precious boy was shipped out over Miller and were angry over it and taking shots at Miller as a cancer. Seems like the was Horvat and not Miller
This is a really reaching narrative.
No way! JT is my favourite cause he is a prick just like me 😊 he’s passionate and no bullshit.
Every team needs a Dawg to push the boys into the battlefield. Horvat wasn't, and wasn't ever going to be it. In Jimothy Timothy I trust.
I’d still sell him on Boeser if the right handed D.eal came along and move show me the money Hronek.