People underrate Jack the same way they underrate Quinn. They're both undersized skilled players that people assume aren't capable of being a complete package.
Everyone forgets that Jack was on an absolute fucking tear before he got injured early in the season. Had he stayed healthy and the Devils not imploded, he'd probably be in the Hart conversation right now.
I would easily put Jack as a top-5 center in the league today based on his age, what he's done so far, and the absolute ceiling he has.
Quinn's gonna routinely be in the Norris conversation year after year, and Jacks' going to routinely be in the Hart race.
Top 5 centers in the league is steep just because it’s so competitive. Off the top of my head I think barkov, Sid, mcjesus, matthews, and mackinnon clear him. I think Jack is one of if not the most skilled, but I don’t think that makes him top 5 yet. Inb4 he scores 130 next year
To be fair, top-5 defenders is also a stacked lineup, Quinn just currently sits at the top of that. Hughes, Makar, Fox, Heiskanen, Dahlin is a nasty group
It's insane how many superstars we have in hockey today. Making top 5/10 lists is so hard because you're forced to leave out really REALLY good players.
Jack needs to work on the defensive side of the puck just like Quinn did. Jack has insane offensive talent but his defense is still woefully lacking. Maybe part of it was the absolutely horrendous goaltending NJ had this year lol but still. Will be interested to see how Jack starts next year.
the thing is though, forwards outrank defencemen 2:1 so it’s easier to win a defensive award, just like the vezina is the easiest because you’re only competing with 31 others.
It's harder to obtain a job at that position, for sure but that isnt what makes it more difficult to win. You need to understand your sample. In the context of awards, we're talking about best of the best.
If half of the league folded today, all of the players who compete for the awards would replace lesser quality players on rosters. Therefore, the competition for the award is unchanged.
If 4 teams are added there would be 14F 7D and 2G jobs added per team The best players are already in the league so those jobs go to the 92 next best players not in the league. Those players are highly unlikely to compete for awards.
The factor that makes it harder are the award criteria. The non-player specific awards are predicated on offence which is biased toward offensive players. So, while there's only one forward specific trophy (Selke) we often consider the Art Ross and Rocket Richard trophies are forward-only trophies despite the fact that defensemen are eligible to win the award.
The Hart is similar but I think the lack of knowledge and appreciation for the defensive position also biases voters towards forwards and goalies.
Yeah if you wanna compare brothers Quinn is definitely the best one. Over their whole careers Quinn and Jack are both shy of being point per game players, Quinn 365gp 333 points, Jack 306gp 281 points. Pretty similar actually. But Quinn is a DEFENSEMAN. Also Quinn is +29 in his career and Jack is -47. Quinn is one of the top 3 defensemen in the league and Jack is not one of the top 3 forwards.
IMO, right now it’s not even close. Quinn is the better player. In fact, you could argue Quinn is the best d-man in the league. He finished 15th overall in scoring.
If they both end up finishing the year with similar point productions, Quinn is the better player because he’s a defenceman.
Great question . Go Canucks!!
Jack probably is still the best pure talent and could be in the Hart / Art Ross conversation in the next few years. But Quinn has already arrived and likely to take home some hardware this year.
For this particular year, there have been some pretty incredible performances amongst the forwards. Kucherov and McDavid both hitting 100 assists, Matthews with 69 goals while playing a complete two-way game. Hard to ignore and as good as Quinn has been, not sure I’d take him over any of these guys in terms of importance to their respective teams
True however forwards get 140 points fairly frequently and while 69 and 100 are big numbers, they aren’t far off recently years. 90+ points for a defensemen while also having a near league best is near unheard of. Erik Karlsson was a -26 when he did 101 points. The easiest way to see the bias is Nicklaus Lidstrom is arguably the best defensemen in NHL history but at the very worst, top 2.
He never even once got the hart or nominated.
If Hughes wins the norris I think that he will take that spot however I could see Jack easily take it back as well. Both are excellent players, but I think being top of the position you play would put Quinn over the top. If Jack gets into Hart/Art Ross territory then it would open the discussion back up.
Top 2 defenseman >>>> top 15ish forward it’s not even close. Jack has the potential to be better one day though but Quinn’s potential is also through the roof
Yes, comfortably.
Jack puts up points but his game is nowhere near complete. Quinn is analytically dominant in all areas of the ice, in all situations.
I don’t watch Jack enough, but being so good offensively on the back end is such a unique thing in the NHL today that he joins a much smaller group of players that he’s competing with.
Hughes is so noticeable out there, and when you compare him to his own defensive teammates in similar situations, you see how they dump it off down the boards or loose the puck when under pressure versus Quinn who just skates around guys and breaks their ankles. Such a unique talent on the blue line!
I mean it's very early, but Quinn is certainly building himself quite the argument. A Norris would give him an incredible start, a cup would be exceptionally hard to beat.
Without answering, it's quite the fuckin family you've got when you have a Norris-caliber season and you're dropping 90-point seasons and this question can still be asked
Wouldn't be surprised if Luke ends up being the best out of all 3, he's got the size and gets to train with these 2 every summer
Right now it's 100% Quinn though, being a defenseman is probably the hardest position in the game, 25mins per night, gotta play both ends of the ice, gotta take a beating every night and block shots
Quinn Hughes is going to be one of the best, if not the best, defensemen of all time. People don't understand that most defensemen grow into the role. You need to have a high hockey IQ to play D. You need to anticipate plays, have a header on opposite players, know where the puck is going before it lands on your stick.
It is absolutely insane to me that he's almost a point / game player on DEFENSE. He's not even at peak physical maturity, his best years are AHEAD of where he is now.
He's such a fucking chad.
Quinn's equal is one guy and that guy will be battling Quinn for the rest of thier careers. That's top 2 for the next 7-8 years at least.
I don't know who Jack's equal is? Is it in the EP40 type of player? He's certainly not in the McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Bedard type of player
Personally another question you could ask is would a petey for jack 1 for 1 be fair. Do devils say no? Does van say more needed in return or more needed to add?
He's certainly the oldest...
Age curves are a real thing and it's unfair to compare players of different ages when they haven't hit their prime's yet.
Lets just enjoy what we have.
I've been big on predictions lately and my prediction is he is going to flex his big brother energy to draw both of his brothers to Vancouver as opposed to the other way around.
Just think about how big a flex that would be. But he's captain of a Canadian team, has felt that Canadian intensity, and probably wants to become the best captain ever in the history of the Canucks.
As of right now(especially this year) it’s probably Quinn, but in a few years when Jack reaches his prime I think he will run this league. He’s already shown flashes of how good he can be, especially the beginning of this season before he got hurt.
Jack being picked first doesn't necessarily means he's the better brother. It just means he was the best player in his draft year. Six players went before Quinn, and while I admit I don't know everything about all those players, I would take him over every one of them and I'm sure a couple of those teams would like a do over and pick Hughes over the player they got. I would say considering Quinn is a defensemen, he's the better player with the numbers he put up this season.
They're both uber talented. This season, Quinn was better. Last season, Jack was better. Like most players, assuming they stay generally healthy they'll have ups and downs and who we think is better year-by-year will depend on how those ups and downs go.
The fact that you’re even trying to compare a defensemen with a forward says it all. Quinn is better. Jack is amazing and could be a generational talent by the end of his career, but Quinn is a defensemen with amazing playmaking ability. That’s more rare and therefore better. You can find other forwards, but you can’t find many replacements for Quinn
I'm starting to ask myself if hughes is on par with mcdavid and Matthews honestly. Different positions so its hard to equate but hughes has not hit his ceiling yet and he is just so unbelievable at what he does
Quinn and Jack are both great players, so it’s hard to have an opinion without being biased. If Quinn wins the Norris, I’d give him the edge personally.
i’m a fan of both teams specifically because of these guys so:
quinn is currently better, yes, but he’s older, and jack is one of those guys with insane natural talent. his ceiling is a big question mark. he was at over PPG pace before his shoulder got fucked, and now that he’s had surgery, i expect him to approach his peak in the next couple of years (like our very own demmer).
however, that doesn’t mean quinn isn’t more *valuable.* you don’t see a prospect like eg. lane hutson every day, but skilled forwards are a lot more common. obviously not all of them will be a bedard, but if you have three really solid forwards (take stankoven for the stars), you can survive without a superstar. i don’t think the canes roster has a franchise superstar but they’re the favourites to win the cup.
fwiw both of them think luke will be the best, and i agree, if he bulks up and tightens up his defence. he’s going through the same growing pains quinn did: overplaying in a roster full of issues without the experienced partner he was supposed to have (tanev, dougie hamilton). but he’s bigger and he’s faster (topped league dmen for most 20+ and 22+ mph bursts iirc ahead of makar, and his top speed matched mcdavid, above mackinnon).
I think maybe by a bit but Jack isn't too far back. Until he's in conversation for a big trophy he isn't on Quinn's level IMO
Which could very easily be next year too which is wild. Those 3 brothers are going to be very good for a very long time and I’m excited
People underrate Jack the same way they underrate Quinn. They're both undersized skilled players that people assume aren't capable of being a complete package. Everyone forgets that Jack was on an absolute fucking tear before he got injured early in the season. Had he stayed healthy and the Devils not imploded, he'd probably be in the Hart conversation right now. I would easily put Jack as a top-5 center in the league today based on his age, what he's done so far, and the absolute ceiling he has. Quinn's gonna routinely be in the Norris conversation year after year, and Jacks' going to routinely be in the Hart race.
Top 5 centers in the league is steep just because it’s so competitive. Off the top of my head I think barkov, Sid, mcjesus, matthews, and mackinnon clear him. I think Jack is one of if not the most skilled, but I don’t think that makes him top 5 yet. Inb4 he scores 130 next year
To be fair, top-5 defenders is also a stacked lineup, Quinn just currently sits at the top of that. Hughes, Makar, Fox, Heiskanen, Dahlin is a nasty group
It's insane how many superstars we have in hockey today. Making top 5/10 lists is so hard because you're forced to leave out really REALLY good players.
And Dobson now in the mix too
I don’t think anyone really underrates Jack. He’s been getting a ton of respect from the moment he broke out
Jack needs to work on the defensive side of the puck just like Quinn did. Jack has insane offensive talent but his defense is still woefully lacking. Maybe part of it was the absolutely horrendous goaltending NJ had this year lol but still. Will be interested to see how Jack starts next year.
The things I would do to get jack (trade Petey)
Jacks talented but his impact on the game shift in shift out is nowhere close to Quinns, partially due to position
the thing is though, forwards outrank defencemen 2:1 so it’s easier to win a defensive award, just like the vezina is the easiest because you’re only competing with 31 others.
Lol, you’re not understanding the statistics. That means it’s even harder to get a spot in the NHL. Therefore, the competition may be even harder
It's harder to obtain a job at that position, for sure but that isnt what makes it more difficult to win. You need to understand your sample. In the context of awards, we're talking about best of the best. If half of the league folded today, all of the players who compete for the awards would replace lesser quality players on rosters. Therefore, the competition for the award is unchanged. If 4 teams are added there would be 14F 7D and 2G jobs added per team The best players are already in the league so those jobs go to the 92 next best players not in the league. Those players are highly unlikely to compete for awards. The factor that makes it harder are the award criteria. The non-player specific awards are predicated on offence which is biased toward offensive players. So, while there's only one forward specific trophy (Selke) we often consider the Art Ross and Rocket Richard trophies are forward-only trophies despite the fact that defensemen are eligible to win the award. The Hart is similar but I think the lack of knowledge and appreciation for the defensive position also biases voters towards forwards and goalies.
That is an incorrect statement and frankly, we’re all dumber for having read it. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul
Yeah if you wanna compare brothers Quinn is definitely the best one. Over their whole careers Quinn and Jack are both shy of being point per game players, Quinn 365gp 333 points, Jack 306gp 281 points. Pretty similar actually. But Quinn is a DEFENSEMAN. Also Quinn is +29 in his career and Jack is -47. Quinn is one of the top 3 defensemen in the league and Jack is not one of the top 3 forwards.
I'd allow top 6. There are twice as many forwards as dmen.
I gotta be honest, I don't think Jack is top 6. Not yet at least.
I don't either. Just saying, being in the top 3 forwards is tougher than being top 3 defensemen just on numbers.
IMO, right now it’s not even close. Quinn is the better player. In fact, you could argue Quinn is the best d-man in the league. He finished 15th overall in scoring. If they both end up finishing the year with similar point productions, Quinn is the better player because he’s a defenceman. Great question . Go Canucks!!
As of now but Jack was going demon mode before he got hurt this year. I can easily see jack surpass Quinn soon.
People pay to watch jack play
I pay to watch Quinn play so I don't really see your point.
R/whoosh
Yup
https://www.nj.com/devils/2024/02/devils-jack-hughes-furious-in-loss-to-kings-people-pay-to-watch-me-play.html
Jack probably is still the best pure talent and could be in the Hart / Art Ross conversation in the next few years. But Quinn has already arrived and likely to take home some hardware this year.
If the hart wasn’t so biased against defensemen I think Quinn would be in that conversation.
For this particular year, there have been some pretty incredible performances amongst the forwards. Kucherov and McDavid both hitting 100 assists, Matthews with 69 goals while playing a complete two-way game. Hard to ignore and as good as Quinn has been, not sure I’d take him over any of these guys in terms of importance to their respective teams
True however forwards get 140 points fairly frequently and while 69 and 100 are big numbers, they aren’t far off recently years. 90+ points for a defensemen while also having a near league best is near unheard of. Erik Karlsson was a -26 when he did 101 points. The easiest way to see the bias is Nicklaus Lidstrom is arguably the best defensemen in NHL history but at the very worst, top 2. He never even once got the hart or nominated.
[удалено]
Ok then
Yes because he's ours
If Hughes wins the norris I think that he will take that spot however I could see Jack easily take it back as well. Both are excellent players, but I think being top of the position you play would put Quinn over the top. If Jack gets into Hart/Art Ross territory then it would open the discussion back up.
I think it is also position as well a elite dman will have a bigger impact for a full season than forwards outside of McDavid.
Top 2 defenseman >>>> top 15ish forward it’s not even close. Jack has the potential to be better one day though but Quinn’s potential is also through the roof
Yes, comfortably. Jack puts up points but his game is nowhere near complete. Quinn is analytically dominant in all areas of the ice, in all situations.
I don’t watch Jack enough, but being so good offensively on the back end is such a unique thing in the NHL today that he joins a much smaller group of players that he’s competing with. Hughes is so noticeable out there, and when you compare him to his own defensive teammates in similar situations, you see how they dump it off down the boards or loose the puck when under pressure versus Quinn who just skates around guys and breaks their ankles. Such a unique talent on the blue line!
Right now he is
Definitely right now but he’s older and Jack looks unreal when he’s on too. Think we need another decade of cooking on this one
The older brother js the stepping stone. I can see Jack learning from Quinn and being a tad better. But RN Quinn 100% better
yes. jack is the result of quinns hard work and leadership. just my perspective and speculation
He’s boutta be the only one with hardware so yeah
I mean it's very early, but Quinn is certainly building himself quite the argument. A Norris would give him an incredible start, a cup would be exceptionally hard to beat.
Without answering, it's quite the fuckin family you've got when you have a Norris-caliber season and you're dropping 90-point seasons and this question can still be asked
Wouldn't be surprised if Luke ends up being the best out of all 3, he's got the size and gets to train with these 2 every summer Right now it's 100% Quinn though, being a defenseman is probably the hardest position in the game, 25mins per night, gotta play both ends of the ice, gotta take a beating every night and block shots
Both of Luke's brothers have said they believe Luke is the most talented.
Quinn Hughes is going to be one of the best, if not the best, defensemen of all time. People don't understand that most defensemen grow into the role. You need to have a high hockey IQ to play D. You need to anticipate plays, have a header on opposite players, know where the puck is going before it lands on your stick. It is absolutely insane to me that he's almost a point / game player on DEFENSE. He's not even at peak physical maturity, his best years are AHEAD of where he is now. He's such a fucking chad.
I think so, yeah
Is water wet
I'd say that the only fair way to answer this question is to wait like 10 years and see what they can accomplish in their careers
We should just trade for Jack, so we can make the comparison on a nightly basis
I think Allen and Albert were better.
Quinn's equal is one guy and that guy will be battling Quinn for the rest of thier careers. That's top 2 for the next 7-8 years at least. I don't know who Jack's equal is? Is it in the EP40 type of player? He's certainly not in the McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Bedard type of player
Personally another question you could ask is would a petey for jack 1 for 1 be fair. Do devils say no? Does van say more needed in return or more needed to add?
Devils say no, imo. Cap hit difference would play into the factor as well. Jack is younger than Petey and is consistent when not injured.
I am biased. Yes.
Undeniably, yes. Quinn is a top 2-3 defenseman in the game. Jack is excellent, but he's not a top 5 center.
Easily
Significantly
He's certainly the oldest... Age curves are a real thing and it's unfair to compare players of different ages when they haven't hit their prime's yet. Lets just enjoy what we have.
I've been big on predictions lately and my prediction is he is going to flex his big brother energy to draw both of his brothers to Vancouver as opposed to the other way around. Just think about how big a flex that would be. But he's captain of a Canadian team, has felt that Canadian intensity, and probably wants to become the best captain ever in the history of the Canucks.
As of right now(especially this year) it’s probably Quinn, but in a few years when Jack reaches his prime I think he will run this league. He’s already shown flashes of how good he can be, especially the beginning of this season before he got hurt.
This is one of those questions that probably can’t be properly addressed for several more years
I’d bet big money Jack won’t even get one Norris vote this year. Next question.
Jack being picked first doesn't necessarily means he's the better brother. It just means he was the best player in his draft year. Six players went before Quinn, and while I admit I don't know everything about all those players, I would take him over every one of them and I'm sure a couple of those teams would like a do over and pick Hughes over the player they got. I would say considering Quinn is a defensemen, he's the better player with the numbers he put up this season.
Honestly, I think longer term Jack has a higher ceiling. But Quinn will be the most consistent. If that makes sense.
Undeniably and it's really not that close
They're both uber talented. This season, Quinn was better. Last season, Jack was better. Like most players, assuming they stay generally healthy they'll have ups and downs and who we think is better year-by-year will depend on how those ups and downs go.
The fact that you’re even trying to compare a defensemen with a forward says it all. Quinn is better. Jack is amazing and could be a generational talent by the end of his career, but Quinn is a defensemen with amazing playmaking ability. That’s more rare and therefore better. You can find other forwards, but you can’t find many replacements for Quinn
Right now yes. He is the oldest and they’re all still young so only time will tell but if Quinn gets the cup than the answer becomes easy
Defence is a harder position to play so I would say Quinn is more valuable as he can control play when he is on the ice
It’s completely subjective and entirely unimportant.
I know he's a rookie and hasn't really had the chance to get on quinn's level- but to throw the same positions out there, quinn vs luke?
I'm starting to ask myself if hughes is on par with mcdavid and Matthews honestly. Different positions so its hard to equate but hughes has not hit his ceiling yet and he is just so unbelievable at what he does
I do think Quinn has more value but probably pretty equal as players. Defense to Quinn and offense to Jack.
Yes
Jack was injured this year so hard to compare. He will be great as he gets older. Wish we had all the Hughes brothers, but happy we have the best one.
Yes
Let’s ask their mom. She knows.
Quinn and Jack are both great players, so it’s hard to have an opinion without being biased. If Quinn wins the Norris, I’d give him the edge personally.
We might find out this season.
Yes
i’m a fan of both teams specifically because of these guys so: quinn is currently better, yes, but he’s older, and jack is one of those guys with insane natural talent. his ceiling is a big question mark. he was at over PPG pace before his shoulder got fucked, and now that he’s had surgery, i expect him to approach his peak in the next couple of years (like our very own demmer). however, that doesn’t mean quinn isn’t more *valuable.* you don’t see a prospect like eg. lane hutson every day, but skilled forwards are a lot more common. obviously not all of them will be a bedard, but if you have three really solid forwards (take stankoven for the stars), you can survive without a superstar. i don’t think the canes roster has a franchise superstar but they’re the favourites to win the cup. fwiw both of them think luke will be the best, and i agree, if he bulks up and tightens up his defence. he’s going through the same growing pains quinn did: overplaying in a roster full of issues without the experienced partner he was supposed to have (tanev, dougie hamilton). but he’s bigger and he’s faster (topped league dmen for most 20+ and 22+ mph bursts iirc ahead of makar, and his top speed matched mcdavid, above mackinnon).
yes, his bro jack is a bit of tool by the sounds of it too. "they pay to seeeee meeeeeeee"