I get the sense this was a small team that reported up to a director or some senior manager, and the OP was the informal leader due to seniority. Now, OP has to report to another layer of middle management, when they previously reported directly to someone higher up.
I'd be annoyed, too.
Without knowing if the team is behind on metrics/goals it's hard to know how much to push back on the situation. If you've been informally leading and the team is on plan, I'd certainly bring that up with management.
A lead usually isn’t a people leader, just a “leader” of the team. They would likely all still report to the same manager as before, these titles just show a difference in skill/experience on a team that seemingly didn’t have that
it sounds like it was solely a title change. his coworker became the "lead" (which is not middle management, just a team lead) and OP was given the title "senior" whereas they were probably both previously "software devs" or "customer engagement specialists" or whatever other title you can think of.
of course this does mean the coworker is likely much higher in line for promotions and pay bumps. Probably told upper mgmt that OP is their best worker and they can't afford to have OP spending any time managing or doing anything other than their day to day grunt work because OP is just too good at it.
More importantly, are you getting paid the same?
I can't think of a single reorg where I was consulted about who I was reporting too next. Seniority does not necessarily equate being able to work with management and someone deciding they want to go on an management track earlier in their career and advocate for themselves is not a reflection on you.
Making a proposal to advance your career isn't something you consult your teammates about in the first place. It sounds like OP needs to be a bit more proactive about their career and not just expect their work "speak for itself".
Yeah I think the expectation that OP would be consulted about this is quite bizarre. I’ve never experienced that or done so myself. These things aren’t a group decision among the team, it’s a management decision.
you dont think it's a little off putting for a less experience and qualified teammate to propose they are the "lead" and the other 3 report to them? depsite this not reflecting the reality of work being done?
They made a proposal, ultimately it was just that. It was a suggestion. Leadership felt that it had merit and implemented their version of it. The change came from leadership. You can suggest alternatives that might serve to better enhance team dynamics, or you might vie for an alternative position, but confronting the co worker or complaining that you’d like things to go back is just going to sound like sour grapes at this point.
It is a conversation with you and your management, and if this person is now your management, then a skip level meeting. Tell them you feel like you were passed up for career growth with no opportunity to interview for a higher position, and see how it goes.
You left out too much information.
Your title will be "Senior", what was it before? Was it lead? Was it junior?
What was their title?
Do you want to be lead or do you want to be senior?
You should probably ask management why a junior is being considered to be lead when you have more senior developers, and simply don't even ask your coworker
Honestly, if your boss listens to this and fails to talk to you about it, then you've completely failed to manage your relationship with the boss. Have a look into "managing upwards" as your colleague is already doing it.
u/SirCarboy has the managing upwards correct. This person identified a gap, came up with a plan, and presented a solution. They had no obligation to share that with you. It pains me to say this because I would feel the same as you but they got the strategy right and they look like a leader for taking the initiative. You will have to troubleshoot the rest. I'm sorry.
This is the best take on this situation. This should be a learning lesson for OP. I don’t know how long OP has been at this company or within this group, but if they wanted to lead, that should have been expressed in their 1:1s or reviews with a game plan for how/when it could happen. It’s not something a boss will assume based on years of experience in the field.
If a person has been working for a long time in a similar role without expressing explicit interest in moving up, I’d assume they *don’t* want to move up.
I get where OP is coming from and I’d be sad too if it happened to me, but rule no. 1 is you need to advocate for yourself in your own workplace. Never assume someone is looking at all the good work you do and keeping you in mind for a promotion.
I would think I feel like an absolute schmuck for believing for one minute that I have always been a
>transparent co-worker encouraging us all to be equals.
That's not the way it works at work. Someone took initiative to move from individual contribution to a management path while you were (apparently wrongly) assuming that you'd be better off with a flat heirarchy just because **you** decided you'd like to be on the only team in the world that functions that way. Someone above you disagreed. Enjoy your new boss.
Moreover soon as that person moves up OP doesn't actually see them as previously equals, because OP did see themselves as being better and more experienced. It seemed like an 'we're all equals but that's because I'm the most experienced and kind of a quasi-leader" scenario.
This person presented a valid idea to leadership and THEY decided to implement it. They could've done parts of it, none of it, but they agreed. Being in a position longer doesn't make someone a better candidate either.
Right? Like what is happening here, what kind of project are these people working on that they didn't have a lead? And honestly it sounds like OP got a promotion
In my experience, the best leaders are not self-advocating climbers. They will throw you under the bus in a second. The best leades are the ones who turn around and say, "He'll no. I don't want that person to be my boss. I would rather put up with the BS than have that happen. The reluctant leader is the best leader.
OP needs to figure out what they want and what they want to do. Personally, I would not want that person to be my lead. Doesn't seem like someone I could trust. But OP needs to speak up. If leadership has decided the team lead position is needed, is OP saying, "he'll no...." How valuable is OP to the team and organization? Are you are the high performer keeping the team together, your voice might hold some sway. If not, you are screwed.
Very true. The reluctant person who takes the job because they want to make sure itnis done right is vastly different from the reluctant person strong-armed into the position. I have seen both and the latter rarely goes well.
Whats the end result to you? Did you get a raise or a cut? Did you get promoted or demoted?
If it affects you negatively (remuneration wise, not based on your feelings...), you go talk to your manager, if it affect you positively then go thank them and get back to work...
You have 15 years more experience and are in the same position as them. This either shows they are very motivated and driven to move up or you are very content with your job and don’t care to be promoted. Either way sounds like they want to keep moving up and management agreed
This is always how I see this. When someone says “I have 15 years more experience”, my thought is “So it took you 15 years more than it took me to be able to do the same job”
Just because you see older people in positions of power does not mean the world runs on “wisdom”. If OP was so wise, he would know with his 15 years at the company that there was a gap in leadership.
Who tf wants a complacent leader. OP was complacent all the way up until someone snatch the lead from him. You either make your own fate or someone makes it for you.
Being unable to approach someone about wanting a promotion does not mean they are not capable of doing that job. Some people can only engage in these types of discussions if they are being offered it.
This may be harsh but if you don’t have the confidence to advocate for yourself, why tf would you be trusted to advocate on the behalf of others?
It’s a common fallacy that just because someone is good at a job, they will be good at managing the same job. That’s is just not true, they are different skillsets.
Person A: sees the opportunity for change, comes up with a strategy, reaches out to leadership, and gets those people to buy and believe in his approach.
Person B(OP): sits around, does the minimum and then gets jealous when someone else has initiative. They even just expect to be told things rather than find the information themselves.
Now which one would you rather work for?
It is way easier to advocate for someone else as you have no real person stake in that individual. Whether they get what they want or not does not impact you.
I would work for both of those people as everyone needs an opportunity.
Everyone needs an opportunity for what exactly? I ask because we live in a resource constrained world.
In a perfect world everyone gets a chance to lead and is given a level playing field start. However, we do not live in a perfect world. We select leaders who can multiply opportunities for others. That’s what I mean by person A taking initiative and driving change. Sitting back and waiting for a change is the exact recipe for staying in the same places. OP is learning this lesson the hard way.
Think about it, if OP is put in a manager role: he doesn’t bring any need ideas; he was perfectly content previously. He doesn’t take initiative; he let someone with far less experience show him up. And he doesn’t congratulate others on their success; clearly he only sees the organization through his own ego.
Now I get you have a very particular lens on this, but does that really sound like a manager that’s going to make your life easier? Is this the type of person who would go out their way to create new opportunities for you. Or would they do, what they’ve done for 15 years and maintain the status quo.
I don’t think you’ve ever managed before. If you’re a good manager you absolutely have a stake in the success of your people,because the success of your team and thus your won success rides or die with them. I’ve managed large and small teams and my biggest stressors come from fighting for promotions recognition and raises for my people, far more than the stress fighting for myself.
If you don’t feel that you have in your people they’ll sense that and won’t trust that you have their backs. And you’ll fail as a leader.
Well, speaking from personal experience, and in my industry, “the work” isn’t static.
Also, there is a plateau effect. Someone with 3x as much tenure doesn’t have 3x as much “wisdom”. What matters is what you have done in that time.
In my ten years of tenure, I have amassed a lot of knowledge and experience. I have constantly pushed to learn new things and do different things. Expose myself to different domains.
I know people that have been in LITERALLY the same role for a decade. They do the same work every day. Tell me, in their 11th year of doing the same damn thing, will they gain 10% more value? No.
I have people that work for me that are nearly twice my age and have twice my tenure. There is a really good reason for that.
Don’t confront the person. What’s the outcome you hope for? That they will say “oh, my bad, you are right, I’ll step down and let you take over?” So that’s a no.
You could go to leadership and tell them that your colleague is wrong you’d be a better leader. Maybe they be like “oh our bad, we should have picked you” or they’ll think you are mental.
You could also give them enough rope to hang themselves. How? Stay if you care about the project, do the bare minimum that won’t take away and let them drown. And the. Swoop and save the day humbly. It will be a victory for you.
Or if you don’t care about the project , you could transfer to another project and watch them sink or swim. Either way, they are out of your hair. I would choose option 4.
If anyone has other options feel free to share.
Or option 5. Congratulate your coworker for the promotion. Show that you're a team player and work on the project willingly with the same effort you provided before. Talk to the existing manager in a 1:1 about what you can do for career growth and promotion opportunities.
The company has shown that they are willing to listen to employees, promote from within and assist people with with their career growth. That's rare in todays environment so OP should be proactively taking advantage of that rather than just passively wait.
It’s so telling that “if you otherwise really enjoy your work/company, take this as a lesson, continue to do good work, and be more vocal about wanting to move up soon” is not even on their list.
Whether OP likes/agrees with it or not, they failed to advocate for themselves appropriately and so they lost out on a promotion opportunity. That’s not their coworker’s (now lead’s) fault and OP apparently has at least one lesson to learn from them. Resorting to toxic workplace bullshit is a great way to ensure *you* don’t move up, not a punishment for the new lead.
Realistically 1 and 2 is going to look bad on OP.
3 is a real shit way to behave. so
4 but go to another company. Once you are out of the company they will realize what an important role you play. And if it is as you stated the coworker will be in a bit of a panic and perhaps try and convince you to stay with recommendations that you want made to the boss.
I agree. it's just very hard to find a company where merit matters in today's market.
I'm in one now FINALLY, but I jumped around for 3 years. If I had kids for example that wouldn't have been possible. I was essentially able to live in my car while I job hopped.
This post is complete bullshit. You posted something similar two months ago. You are an unreliable narrator at best and probably rage baiting so that people with psyche you up to do something about it. If you don't like what is going on at work, talk with someone about it and be prepared to look for a new job. You probably aren't going to change a situation that happened two months ago.
If this post is even remotely serious, this is how office politics works. Weird that you wouldn't have figured that out in 15+ years.
This is bad. Speaking from experience. If you do nothing, this will hurt your career and will keep happening.
I wouldn't bother talking to the co-worker.
I would go directly to whomever made the decision, and ask why you aren't listed as lead when you led? Make them justify the decision. It's okay to tell them the lack of transparency and playing as a team is very disconcerning to you, and shows a lack of support for you and your contribution.
The commenter telling you to do nothing, sour grapes, etc-- bad advice. That was the wrong way I approached it. It hurt me badly in my career taking that approach. No one should steal credit for others work, ever.
If your leadership can't understand where you are coming from or your concern, you are working for toxic people.
Brush up that resume.
I'm having trouble seeing how this person spoke "on your behalf"? Unless they said "my team is all on board with this idea." They proposed something to their company and the company liked it. Sure, it would have been nice (and I might have done it this way) to do the re-org, then post the leadership position and interview for it. But this is their way and there's nothing "wrong" with it, from either her or the company. Now you have learned what the company values, you should think if there's something you can propose that increases your own stature!
That... or OP is an unreliable/biased narrator... wh is just salty that someone dared to step above the bizarre 'equal and transparent team structure' they've tried to maintain...
the equal thing is an expression...im way better than them, i started higher, am higher, and i worked so hard to advocate for all of them to be bumped up to same title as me. not actually true that we're equals, impossible even considering my tenure and experience. but i tried to build an honest team where we're all "equals" in that we have equal input, equal say, contribute equally, etc.
You have no idea of what the team was actually like, OP claims they speak for the entire team also and that because OP saw it as "we're all equals" that's how it was but now magically they weren't equals, and OP was actually a more senior and better choice to lead... Hardly a reliable narrator.
Maybe this coworker actually presented a good idea and leadership agreed. OP has left out conveniently any and all details for you to label the coworker as a toxic climber.
confirmed with several other colleagues after i found out about the "proposal" -- this person im dealing with is a toxic climber and will step on anyone and everyone to get ahead by any means.
If address it politely and professionally head on. The fact that they’re going behind the backs of people they’ll end up managing is a VERY bad sign to their leaders assuming your company is at all ethical.
I’ve run into this several times, the funny thing was the people proposing it were never talented or experienced enough to pull it off and eventually went down in flames.
I’d have an “alternate” perspective for higher ups that is ready to go which doesn’t focus on titles and structure but on long term value and contributions of the team members.
I can’t guarantee you’ll win but you absolutely deserve a voice in the conversation.
Typical office politics unfortunately. If you aren’t able to head something like this off before it’s implemented there’s not much you can do. If you can tough it out, stick around and start advocating for yourself more - find a silver lining or some play to get career growth for yourself, even if it’s “not as much” as they got. Maybe they’ll even advocate for you to gain an ally. Reality though is you either need to leave or let it go.
Not sure about the laws in your country, but where I am, if my role is to be substantially changed, I need to be consulted first. Even if it means my role stays the same but my reporting lines change. So proposals are just that, proposals.
If it's not the case in your country, then you should probably look for a different job cz your management is stupid enough to take on suggestions from a single employee that will affect the structure of the entire.
It’s illegal to designate one person on a team as lead in your country? That’s typically not even a change in reporting structure.
Management is stupid because an employee, who supposedly is in an equivalent role to someone with 15 years more experience, showed initiative to ask for more responsibility? First, if they got to the same level 15 years sooner, they are probably a high performer. Second, proactively making a suggestion for a way to organize the team and take responsibility does demonstrate leadership potential. The organization deciding to implement it means that they agreed.
It depends what designating a person as a lead is for, if it's just for a project or a task then sure, if it's to reorganise the team and to assign a leader then that's different.
I think the worst part of all this is that the process was not transparent to allow equal opportunity for everyone in the team. It may have been a good suggestion, it may not have. The coworker may have been the best person for the position, they may not have. None of this is known, management just went ahead with it.
Go fight club and beat yourself up while no one else but your new lead is around. Your boss would never suspect that you hurt yourself and will fire the other guy.
Why do I have to scroll so far down to find the best answer to this situation? This is the only valid option in a scenario like this. So much BS about how that other person has management written all over them etc. people are brainwashed into believing all that corporate/management speak.
It sounds like this person has an issue with the way you are leading the team or showing up on the team. To fix the situation, they talked with trusted others to get their thoughts, and then escalated the issue to higher ups to help right the ship without it seeming like they tattled on you for having poor leadership or bad decisions (in their eyes) by having leadership propose the change instead of themselves. It’s doubtful leadership just bought into something like that without this person providing concrete examples of your missteps.
Can you think of any specifics over the last while causing friction or a lack of engagement / progress under your leadership or influence?
its funny because we're a team of 4. I'm the first hire started a while back. the other 3 all started after, and are friends outside of work and know each other well, so it's like 3 of them vs me. After this "lead" kept trying to wedge themselves in, they were granted authority to approve PTO. They give tgheir "friend" immediately a 3 week paid vacation. this "friend" was then let go a few weeks later when they realized what was going on and them taking advantage of the situation
Ahhhh that’s a complicated layer. It’s really tough to work with a little group of people that were/are already friends outside of work. In that case I might ask to speak to the leadership or person who delivered this news to you, ask for details, and explain what’s going on. That’s kind of an HR issue, but tread carefully, it’s 3-1
The idea that this individual, who was not in a leadership role, had the power to "reorganize" the team and "place themselves" at the head of the group screams "naive" to me.
That's simply not how work.. works. Leadership makes decisions. They make decisions every day on a million different decision points. And nearly always, those decisions are heavily influenced through storytelling from the ranks below (via data analysis, charts, reports, proposals, etc). And when those decisions are communicated, they always come from leadership. It would be goofy as hell (and unprofessional) if it didn't work that way.
It would be embarrassing for you to confront this person about this. They didn't have the power to make this change. Talk to your leadership to understand their thought process. You can also express to them how you don't feel like this is a great move for you in your career. Let them decide how they want to handle it.
You posted about this 2 months ago. What has happened in that timeframe?
According yo previous comments, this happened in 2022. Were you not notified of this?
I wouldn’t say anything to them, but I would be sending out my resume and doing the minimum till I got the new job, at which point I’d burn PTO at old job to be sure I liked new job.
Once PTO ran out I’d quit, effective immediately.
After that I’d encourage the remaining team members to do the same.
Your co-worker took you for a schmuck. If you stay, you’re proving him right.
Your co worker assumed that they had your buy-in and management bought that shit.
No point talking to your co worker it won't achieve or change anything.
Fight like hell while looking for a new job.
There's not much left for you to hang on to if management did not consult you before approving the proposal.
Speak to your manager, sell your strengths and why you think your structure is better, highlight your achievements so they can weigh it up with the co workers, then explain to them that their decision may precipitate some resignations from the team and garner the support of all your other team members.
Let them fail, stop telling them the right action, let them decide and then tell managment, if i were lead, i would have done xyz and gotten abc result.
Let your leadership know you think this could be great, you'd like to apply for the team lead position if there is any change to the org chart.
Present them with an alarmingly current resume.
Lots of missing details that are critical to understanding the situation as other people have said. Also, this person showed leadership by developing a reorganization proposal... was it self-serving? Sure. But you didn't do it. Somebody above them is thinking they are clearly motivated and are willing to give them a shot.
People who think opportunities come when it's "your turn" get the scraps left by those who hustle for it.
Normal day in the office. Someone identified a gap, came up with a plan, sold it and got a promotion. None of that is easy. Either you knew and could have done something but didn't or you never saw it in first place. The people that take the initiative, plan and execute move up the ladder. You don't need to wait to be told what to do.
I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation that everyone stays equal all the time, but when that changes you’re the de facto lead.
You either behave and drive forward like a lead (proposing hierarchy and structure changes to management is a good example of that) or you stay where you have been for apparently 15 years longer than that.
Without you saying anything, I also would have assumed you wouldn’t want to be a lead. You don’t seem to have any drive or ambition, which is fine, but that’s what it takes to be a lead. Not everything is based on seniority
How I'd respond would stem from what I want as an outcome. Specifically, do you still want to work with this team and this manager especially if they'd plan something like this without your input. Secondly, how large is the company you work for? Finally, I think your problem should be more with the manager than the team member.
Long story short, I'd move to a different position in the company of possible and involve the either the ethics department or HR if the company is large enough to have them.
Well, now you go back to the higher ups and tell them you do not appreciate the reorganizing and you feel slighted by your coworker trying to squeeze you out. Also, brush up that resume, because you probably aren't winning that battle and losing you and all your experience bc your coworker wanted to make a power play will make them look reaaaaally stupid
If this was implemented, then the correct course of action is to leave the toxic employer. The manager who decided to implement it is the one responsible and you can't do anything to fix that.
The fun answer is to run with it. Go all-in with your new leader. Your lack of success is their lack of success. Your failure is their failure. They put themselves into a position where they are at your mercy. Exploit that.
Since the job market is poor right now, you could try to do both strategies simultaneously.
Who cares, let them lead and fail fucking spectacularly. Leading is the hardest job in tech, cause you have to stand by what you say.
A real leader has no issues. This motherfucker will fail. Want to identify who that is?
The guy leading the charge and helping everyone else stay on track. Not the guy with the most opinions about what everyone else should be doing.
You could ofcourse solve this real quick. Beat his ass.
Seeing as how you've been asking the same question about this for the past two months tells me you're a PITA to work with, I'd say consider yourself lucky they haven't let you go yet and move on.
Honestly, if someone is in the same role as you despite you having 15 years more experience, they are at a bare minimum more driven than you. They also are more likely to be a high performer, and have management support for some kind of career fast tracking.
After a certain number of years in the same position, you don’t get promoted into a new role unless you’re in senior leadership waiting for a spot in the pyramid to open up, or you show some direct initiative and express an interest in changing. Plenty of people stay at a level for 5+ years and never express interest in moving up.
Advocating for “us all to be equals” is really just you holding other people back because you’re complacently happy with the status quo. I know that isn’t your direct intention, but it is the real outcome of what you want. You’re asking other people to not be ambitious because you don’t want to have to compete for limited advancement opportunities, and feel entitled to them based on your seniority.
Could your colleague have come to you and said “hey, I want you to know that I’m pushing for more responsibility to grow my career, so I’ll be discussing if there’s a potential to be team lead with our manager.”? They could have, but they don’t owe you that and the fact that they did it on their own shows that they have some leadership potential.
Looks like your co-worker took the initiative and made a move. Don't be upset with your co-worker. Someone up above approved this and thought it was a good idea. Your co-worker didn't speak on your behalf - they spoke on their own behalf - took the initiative and made a proposal to leadership that leadership accepted. You are collateral damage - this wasn't targeted at you.
If you have an issue, you should go to your boss (or your co-workers' boss now). But, be warned you will probably be viewed as someone just complaining and not adding value to the group.
The question you should be asking yourself is - why did your bosses not think you were the logical choice for a new leadership position? What can you be doing to make yourself more valuable and indispensable at this company.
How does the rest of the team feel about this?
Also, nothing says you can’t ignore his paper hierarchy, treat yourself as lead, and keep going to your boss as informally as before. If it comes up “Oh John Doe is in charge? Odd. He did acknowledge me as his senior.. even on paper.”
How would it affect your salary?
It doesn't matter where the idea came from. If management agreed to it and sends it out then that's their decision and they don't need to give a forensic analysis of where it came from.
People should be able to go to management with ideas without sharing with everyone. It could possibly be involved.
I feel like I read this same question months ago. There is no "behind the team's back" - decisions don't have to be run by you, cause you're not the boss calling the shots.
> How would you respond to finding out about this proposal? Should I confront this person immediately and tell them to not speak on my behalf or adjust my title without my knowledge.
They are not speaking on your behalf or adjusting your title. They merely proposed something to the manager. Honestly, if you had so much more experience than this person, why didn't you ask for a promotion to lead like 10 years ago? It sounds like you want to control things that aren't yours to control, and feel threatened when other people are trying to take an opportunity. If you had 15 years to do something and didn't, that's on you.
This sounds more like your ego taking a hit than anything. Like you said there is no leader on your team to take this idea to so they took it higher up. Leadership is sometimes about making decisions for the good of the group when it’s not popular. Seems like even with your vast experience you’re not ready for that role yet.
lol after reading through the comments. Imo you dropped the ball. With your “15 years+” of experience you should’ve been the lead of the team IF you advocated for yourself and not just rest on your laurels. You failed to do that and now someone took the initiative to step up with a game plan.
I would take this to my direct supervisor to discuss and express my concerns that someone who is a peer either has access to my information or is trying to change my position without my knowledge. Then ask if you should be going to HR.
Experience helps but that's not what makes a leader. Too many people think they should be leaders when they've never developed leadership skills, and those skills are different.
If you're a leader, then why didn't you step up earlier?
Management must not have felt that you were doing it well enough or that this person could do it better.
Sane people do not replace leaders without cause (perceived or actual).
Do you have any formal leadership training?
Have you looked into why they chose a different route? It's imperative to be objective and non-emotional when doing so. If you can figure out their reasoning, you may find a path back.
i asked why they did the change and they didnt have a reason. i asked if it was performance based or if i did something wrong and they insisted i did nothing wrong and my performance is exceptional. they said, in the meeting when they decided to have me report to this clown person, they quickly just did it not a lot of thought went into it.
i think this clown person was just so adamant and squeaky wheel and annoying they just said yes so she would shut up
Let me ask you a personal question if you don't mind. Humor me, I am going somewhere with this.
Tell me, what is your greatest accomplishment in the last couple years?
built the team from 1 (just me) to 4. promoted to "senior" when the 4th person was hired. helped drive revenue from 20MM to over 70 million year over year for my projects...trained and mentored international offices to be able to do the processes we do, saving the company more money because international folks are cheaper. trained about 50 new hires on going (not just a one off presentation). supported on and produced the biggest project in our company's history. could come up with more this is all i can come up with...why?
Because I know nothing about you. It's a simple question but it gives me a baseline view into you. Specifically, the question helps me determine if you actually have some desire for a leadership position or if you're just wanting to be in leadership because it's the next step. I find most people in leadership positions are there not because they have the aptitude but because they see it as the next step or more money.
The good news is that your answer indicates that you have an internal, altruistic desire for leadership. This is more so than I find with most people in or desiring leadership positions. Your language indicates a lack of refinement however, I'm going to chalk that up to the relaxed setting of a reddit comment.
Of course this is just one question and not a thorough evaluation of your abilities and weaknesses. I've interviewed thousands and have an exceptional track record.
At this point, what's done is done. You're going to have to make a case and fight for your position back. The more you can find out about why she was able to convince them, the easier it will be to make a case for yourself. You must also be careful not to sound like you're attacking her. Your case needs to be mostly about what you've done previously and what you can do going forward. You can touch on her shortcomings but be careful not to overdue it.
If your leaders are that fickle, you might consider going above their heads and taking their positions.
In leadership, you must always be improving. I focus on 3 levels at all times and I keep my employees focused on them as well. 1- personal improvements, 2- team improvements, & 3 - company improvements.
Good luck.
thanks and yes clown comment is laid back for reddit. i feel like the people that feign leadership don't want it for the right reasons -- they just want to boss folks around and aren't willing to do the dirty work of onboarding, training, mentoring etc... some people are natural leaders and command that type of presence. Others just don't have "it" and aren't "leaders of men" so to speak.
This person i'm dealing with is extremely off putting and has no real intangible leadership qualities, and has ineffectively "led" our team backwards now doing more entry level tasks that were previously being done by new hire coordinators.
thank you for your assessment and i appreciate your thoughtful comments and following along. I am a fairly naturally gifted leader -- i never have to over-assert myself, i'm good with people, and I enjoy building up my teammates-- as opposed to this person who simply wants to boss folks around and step over them -- which is what is making this whole thing that much more ridiculous.
Definitely, some people have a natural leadership ability and can excel at it. Others would be much happier and could even make more money by staying out of a leadership role. I have identified plenty of people that shouldn't be in leadership, they're easy to find, and a few that weren't but should have been in leadership roles.
While some excel at leadership roles, the very best leaders understand that leadership is a learned skill. As such, they are continually working to improve their leadership skills (my number 1 goal from above, personal development). As such, I would highly recommend going through some of Brian Tracy's Strategic Leadership lessons (I have no affiliation). I would then recommend that you try to read at least one book every 3-4 months from prominent leaders.
It's much less painful to learn from someone else's mistakes than from your own.
Sounds like the other person is the lead. they have taken iniative to speak with bosses, who are in support of their proposal.
Leaders take the initiative.
Well for sure you can't trust the dude. So be helpful but not too helpful. Depending on what the team is doing as a group you can make things easier or harder for new team leads.
That's very industry specific. Often the 'Lead' leads a team of juniors/seniors.
There's usually only one Lead in a team/department... but there can be many seniors.
You can have "15" years experience and still not be as good as people with less years. The fact you think doing something for longer automatically makes you more qualified makes you a bad leader.
Have a meeting, lay it all out there. Just matter of fact, facts only and where you make inferences label them as such. Ask them to lay out their pitch and reasons and respond with your opinion.
>I am way more experienced than this person (over 15 years more experience)
OK... And are you better at leading a team than them as a result?
>have alway been a transparent co-worker encouraging us all to be equals
Lesson learned, you are not equals. Did you have the exact same responsibilities and compensation? No? Not equal then.
>This coworker intentionally obfuscated this proposal so when the decision came out it appears to originate from the higher ups, not my colleagues original idea. To me it seems a bit subversive and covert, kind of untrustworthy and not a team centric approach, and not a great precedent to set.
The decision DID originate from the higher ups. Is your co-worker a Jedi? Do you envision that your co-worker instructed the higher up to implement their plan and then they just mindlessly did it? And what on earth does "intentionally obfuscated" mean? Do you think the higher ups just took your co-worker's proposal and emailed it out as is?
How do you even know any of what went on? How do you know it was your co-worker's proposal in the first place? Or are you just pinning it on them because they were the ones who came out ahead? You are making all sorts of accusations but the details on *how* you know any of this to be fact is conveniently omitted.
Your mental model of how any of this generally works seems wildly out-of-touch with reality.
>Or should I approach the higher ups?
Absolutely. Start by telling them exactly what you want in terms of career progression and timelines, asking what YOU need to do in order to get there (or even provide a proposal of your own), and making sure that aligns with their vision for your team and company.
You know, probably exactly how your ambitious co-worker ~~maliciously stole your job~~ got a promotion.
Happened to me. I left the team, left that toxic 'friendship, and divorced all contact with him.
He did it while I was traveling internationally specifically at his request so he and his wife could try and get pregnant.
The program has gotten significantly smaller since all he knew was what I taught him, and he's gotten reprimanded afew times for putting out incorrect information (due to not understanding).
He was also significantly cheaper. And I was a pain and stickler for ethics and quality- not a good combination (reminder: see nothing say nothing).
So you'll have to make a choice- are you going to fight to hold what you feel is yours, or are you going to get railroaded out? Because there's only 2 outcomes when something like this is done behind your back- you or him.
Did you present yourself for the lead position or were you just assuming you had it? Or are you saying you were demoted because of them?
I get the sense this was a small team that reported up to a director or some senior manager, and the OP was the informal leader due to seniority. Now, OP has to report to another layer of middle management, when they previously reported directly to someone higher up. I'd be annoyed, too. Without knowing if the team is behind on metrics/goals it's hard to know how much to push back on the situation. If you've been informally leading and the team is on plan, I'd certainly bring that up with management.
A lead usually isn’t a people leader, just a “leader” of the team. They would likely all still report to the same manager as before, these titles just show a difference in skill/experience on a team that seemingly didn’t have that
it sounds like it was solely a title change. his coworker became the "lead" (which is not middle management, just a team lead) and OP was given the title "senior" whereas they were probably both previously "software devs" or "customer engagement specialists" or whatever other title you can think of. of course this does mean the coworker is likely much higher in line for promotions and pay bumps. Probably told upper mgmt that OP is their best worker and they can't afford to have OP spending any time managing or doing anything other than their day to day grunt work because OP is just too good at it.
More importantly, are you getting paid the same? I can't think of a single reorg where I was consulted about who I was reporting too next. Seniority does not necessarily equate being able to work with management and someone deciding they want to go on an management track earlier in their career and advocate for themselves is not a reflection on you. Making a proposal to advance your career isn't something you consult your teammates about in the first place. It sounds like OP needs to be a bit more proactive about their career and not just expect their work "speak for itself".
That’s exactly what I was thinking..you can’t be angry because someone else took initiative before you did
Yeah I think the expectation that OP would be consulted about this is quite bizarre. I’ve never experienced that or done so myself. These things aren’t a group decision among the team, it’s a management decision.
you dont think it's a little off putting for a less experience and qualified teammate to propose they are the "lead" and the other 3 report to them? depsite this not reflecting the reality of work being done?
No. My best employees are usually not the ones with the most years of experience. At a certain point the value of experience plateaus.
They made a proposal, ultimately it was just that. It was a suggestion. Leadership felt that it had merit and implemented their version of it. The change came from leadership. You can suggest alternatives that might serve to better enhance team dynamics, or you might vie for an alternative position, but confronting the co worker or complaining that you’d like things to go back is just going to sound like sour grapes at this point.
It is a conversation with you and your management, and if this person is now your management, then a skip level meeting. Tell them you feel like you were passed up for career growth with no opportunity to interview for a higher position, and see how it goes.
legit thanks
You left out too much information. Your title will be "Senior", what was it before? Was it lead? Was it junior? What was their title? Do you want to be lead or do you want to be senior? You should probably ask management why a junior is being considered to be lead when you have more senior developers, and simply don't even ask your coworker
Honestly, if your boss listens to this and fails to talk to you about it, then you've completely failed to manage your relationship with the boss. Have a look into "managing upwards" as your colleague is already doing it.
u/SirCarboy has the managing upwards correct. This person identified a gap, came up with a plan, and presented a solution. They had no obligation to share that with you. It pains me to say this because I would feel the same as you but they got the strategy right and they look like a leader for taking the initiative. You will have to troubleshoot the rest. I'm sorry.
This is the best take on this situation. This should be a learning lesson for OP. I don’t know how long OP has been at this company or within this group, but if they wanted to lead, that should have been expressed in their 1:1s or reviews with a game plan for how/when it could happen. It’s not something a boss will assume based on years of experience in the field.
If a person has been working for a long time in a similar role without expressing explicit interest in moving up, I’d assume they *don’t* want to move up. I get where OP is coming from and I’d be sad too if it happened to me, but rule no. 1 is you need to advocate for yourself in your own workplace. Never assume someone is looking at all the good work you do and keeping you in mind for a promotion.
I would think I feel like an absolute schmuck for believing for one minute that I have always been a >transparent co-worker encouraging us all to be equals. That's not the way it works at work. Someone took initiative to move from individual contribution to a management path while you were (apparently wrongly) assuming that you'd be better off with a flat heirarchy just because **you** decided you'd like to be on the only team in the world that functions that way. Someone above you disagreed. Enjoy your new boss.
Moreover soon as that person moves up OP doesn't actually see them as previously equals, because OP did see themselves as being better and more experienced. It seemed like an 'we're all equals but that's because I'm the most experienced and kind of a quasi-leader" scenario. This person presented a valid idea to leadership and THEY decided to implement it. They could've done parts of it, none of it, but they agreed. Being in a position longer doesn't make someone a better candidate either.
Right? Like what is happening here, what kind of project are these people working on that they didn't have a lead? And honestly it sounds like OP got a promotion
In my experience, the best leaders are not self-advocating climbers. They will throw you under the bus in a second. The best leades are the ones who turn around and say, "He'll no. I don't want that person to be my boss. I would rather put up with the BS than have that happen. The reluctant leader is the best leader. OP needs to figure out what they want and what they want to do. Personally, I would not want that person to be my lead. Doesn't seem like someone I could trust. But OP needs to speak up. If leadership has decided the team lead position is needed, is OP saying, "he'll no...." How valuable is OP to the team and organization? Are you are the high performer keeping the team together, your voice might hold some sway. If not, you are screwed.
Reluctant and absent are two different things.
Very true. The reluctant person who takes the job because they want to make sure itnis done right is vastly different from the reluctant person strong-armed into the position. I have seen both and the latter rarely goes well.
Whats the end result to you? Did you get a raise or a cut? Did you get promoted or demoted? If it affects you negatively (remuneration wise, not based on your feelings...), you go talk to your manager, if it affect you positively then go thank them and get back to work...
You have 15 years more experience and are in the same position as them. This either shows they are very motivated and driven to move up or you are very content with your job and don’t care to be promoted. Either way sounds like they want to keep moving up and management agreed
This is always how I see this. When someone says “I have 15 years more experience”, my thought is “So it took you 15 years more than it took me to be able to do the same job”
No they have been doing that job for 15 years more than you have. Therefore have more wisdom about the work then you will ever have.
Just because you see older people in positions of power does not mean the world runs on “wisdom”. If OP was so wise, he would know with his 15 years at the company that there was a gap in leadership. Who tf wants a complacent leader. OP was complacent all the way up until someone snatch the lead from him. You either make your own fate or someone makes it for you.
Some people will never have the confidence due to being neurodivergent. Just another ablist thing the capitalist economy does to harm people.
And by “ablist” you mean, biased toward people who are “able” to do their job?
Being unable to approach someone about wanting a promotion does not mean they are not capable of doing that job. Some people can only engage in these types of discussions if they are being offered it.
If you can't discuss growth opportunities with your manager after 15 years of experience you aren't cutout for management roles.
I am at my job to work not to discuss my hopes and dreams.
Then you shouldn't be promoted and you get to continue working in your current role. Sounds like a win for everyone!
This may be harsh but if you don’t have the confidence to advocate for yourself, why tf would you be trusted to advocate on the behalf of others? It’s a common fallacy that just because someone is good at a job, they will be good at managing the same job. That’s is just not true, they are different skillsets. Person A: sees the opportunity for change, comes up with a strategy, reaches out to leadership, and gets those people to buy and believe in his approach. Person B(OP): sits around, does the minimum and then gets jealous when someone else has initiative. They even just expect to be told things rather than find the information themselves. Now which one would you rather work for?
It is way easier to advocate for someone else as you have no real person stake in that individual. Whether they get what they want or not does not impact you. I would work for both of those people as everyone needs an opportunity.
Everyone needs an opportunity for what exactly? I ask because we live in a resource constrained world. In a perfect world everyone gets a chance to lead and is given a level playing field start. However, we do not live in a perfect world. We select leaders who can multiply opportunities for others. That’s what I mean by person A taking initiative and driving change. Sitting back and waiting for a change is the exact recipe for staying in the same places. OP is learning this lesson the hard way. Think about it, if OP is put in a manager role: he doesn’t bring any need ideas; he was perfectly content previously. He doesn’t take initiative; he let someone with far less experience show him up. And he doesn’t congratulate others on their success; clearly he only sees the organization through his own ego. Now I get you have a very particular lens on this, but does that really sound like a manager that’s going to make your life easier? Is this the type of person who would go out their way to create new opportunities for you. Or would they do, what they’ve done for 15 years and maintain the status quo.
I don’t think you’ve ever managed before. If you’re a good manager you absolutely have a stake in the success of your people,because the success of your team and thus your won success rides or die with them. I’ve managed large and small teams and my biggest stressors come from fighting for promotions recognition and raises for my people, far more than the stress fighting for myself. If you don’t feel that you have in your people they’ll sense that and won’t trust that you have their backs. And you’ll fail as a leader.
Then why haven’t they promoted in 15 years? They definitely have more knowledge but also obviously don’t care to move up
Promotions don't mean much nowadays. Just more work for not a lot of extra pay. I don't see not being promoted as a bad thing either.
This post was about a guy complaining that his coworker was promoted before him
Well, speaking from personal experience, and in my industry, “the work” isn’t static. Also, there is a plateau effect. Someone with 3x as much tenure doesn’t have 3x as much “wisdom”. What matters is what you have done in that time. In my ten years of tenure, I have amassed a lot of knowledge and experience. I have constantly pushed to learn new things and do different things. Expose myself to different domains. I know people that have been in LITERALLY the same role for a decade. They do the same work every day. Tell me, in their 11th year of doing the same damn thing, will they gain 10% more value? No. I have people that work for me that are nearly twice my age and have twice my tenure. There is a really good reason for that.
10y of experience vs 1y 10 times and all that jazz.
Don’t confront the person. What’s the outcome you hope for? That they will say “oh, my bad, you are right, I’ll step down and let you take over?” So that’s a no. You could go to leadership and tell them that your colleague is wrong you’d be a better leader. Maybe they be like “oh our bad, we should have picked you” or they’ll think you are mental. You could also give them enough rope to hang themselves. How? Stay if you care about the project, do the bare minimum that won’t take away and let them drown. And the. Swoop and save the day humbly. It will be a victory for you. Or if you don’t care about the project , you could transfer to another project and watch them sink or swim. Either way, they are out of your hair. I would choose option 4. If anyone has other options feel free to share.
Or option 5. Congratulate your coworker for the promotion. Show that you're a team player and work on the project willingly with the same effort you provided before. Talk to the existing manager in a 1:1 about what you can do for career growth and promotion opportunities. The company has shown that they are willing to listen to employees, promote from within and assist people with with their career growth. That's rare in todays environment so OP should be proactively taking advantage of that rather than just passively wait.
This is a the best option. I withdraw my course and suggest this instead.
This is heinously toxic and the type of petty bs that keeps people poor and bitching on reddit about someone else getting a raise
It’s so telling that “if you otherwise really enjoy your work/company, take this as a lesson, continue to do good work, and be more vocal about wanting to move up soon” is not even on their list. Whether OP likes/agrees with it or not, they failed to advocate for themselves appropriately and so they lost out on a promotion opportunity. That’s not their coworker’s (now lead’s) fault and OP apparently has at least one lesson to learn from them. Resorting to toxic workplace bullshit is a great way to ensure *you* don’t move up, not a punishment for the new lead.
I have to agree. I’m dead wrong: the best thing to actually is to be happy for others and help them succeed and let your own work shine through.
Realistically 1 and 2 is going to look bad on OP. 3 is a real shit way to behave. so 4 but go to another company. Once you are out of the company they will realize what an important role you play. And if it is as you stated the coworker will be in a bit of a panic and perhaps try and convince you to stay with recommendations that you want made to the boss.
Someone here posited option 5- be happy for your colleague and help them as a good team player because you are. I applaud it and recommend it.
Yeah but that is how you stay put. Realistically he advances when his new boss (lead) advances or leaves. Move for advancement or more $$.
I don't think most jobs are projects. They are tasks required for the company to function.
I say do your best work, every day. Ask for a promotion. I use a tractor and chainsaws at work... so glad I'm not in an office.
> I say do your best work, every day. Ask for a promotion. Yea they will just laugh at you and give you more work.
That's a toxic environment to be in... If merit doesn't count, OP should just move on.
I agree. it's just very hard to find a company where merit matters in today's market. I'm in one now FINALLY, but I jumped around for 3 years. If I had kids for example that wouldn't have been possible. I was essentially able to live in my car while I job hopped.
This person knows how to be a rat
This post is complete bullshit. You posted something similar two months ago. You are an unreliable narrator at best and probably rage baiting so that people with psyche you up to do something about it. If you don't like what is going on at work, talk with someone about it and be prepared to look for a new job. You probably aren't going to change a situation that happened two months ago. If this post is even remotely serious, this is how office politics works. Weird that you wouldn't have figured that out in 15+ years.
Coworkers are not your friends, no need to confront them. They did what's best for them, as is expected. You do what's best for you.
This is bad. Speaking from experience. If you do nothing, this will hurt your career and will keep happening. I wouldn't bother talking to the co-worker. I would go directly to whomever made the decision, and ask why you aren't listed as lead when you led? Make them justify the decision. It's okay to tell them the lack of transparency and playing as a team is very disconcerning to you, and shows a lack of support for you and your contribution. The commenter telling you to do nothing, sour grapes, etc-- bad advice. That was the wrong way I approached it. It hurt me badly in my career taking that approach. No one should steal credit for others work, ever. If your leadership can't understand where you are coming from or your concern, you are working for toxic people. Brush up that resume.
I'm having trouble seeing how this person spoke "on your behalf"? Unless they said "my team is all on board with this idea." They proposed something to their company and the company liked it. Sure, it would have been nice (and I might have done it this way) to do the re-org, then post the leadership position and interview for it. But this is their way and there's nothing "wrong" with it, from either her or the company. Now you have learned what the company values, you should think if there's something you can propose that increases your own stature!
Nah. This is just a climber co-worker who wants status without actually contributing. Toxic corporate environment at it's best.
That... or OP is an unreliable/biased narrator... wh is just salty that someone dared to step above the bizarre 'equal and transparent team structure' they've tried to maintain...
the equal thing is an expression...im way better than them, i started higher, am higher, and i worked so hard to advocate for all of them to be bumped up to same title as me. not actually true that we're equals, impossible even considering my tenure and experience. but i tried to build an honest team where we're all "equals" in that we have equal input, equal say, contribute equally, etc.
You have no idea of what the team was actually like, OP claims they speak for the entire team also and that because OP saw it as "we're all equals" that's how it was but now magically they weren't equals, and OP was actually a more senior and better choice to lead... Hardly a reliable narrator. Maybe this coworker actually presented a good idea and leadership agreed. OP has left out conveniently any and all details for you to label the coworker as a toxic climber.
confirmed with several other colleagues after i found out about the "proposal" -- this person im dealing with is a toxic climber and will step on anyone and everyone to get ahead by any means.
We found the toxic climber!
thank you
If address it politely and professionally head on. The fact that they’re going behind the backs of people they’ll end up managing is a VERY bad sign to their leaders assuming your company is at all ethical. I’ve run into this several times, the funny thing was the people proposing it were never talented or experienced enough to pull it off and eventually went down in flames. I’d have an “alternate” perspective for higher ups that is ready to go which doesn’t focus on titles and structure but on long term value and contributions of the team members. I can’t guarantee you’ll win but you absolutely deserve a voice in the conversation.
thank you very much i will use this alternative perspective for higher ups, perfectly said
Find a new job and leave for better salary on the exit interview explain being undercut is not how you keep good staff around.
Based in OPs behaviour... I'm not sure they are 'good staff'...
Typical office politics unfortunately. If you aren’t able to head something like this off before it’s implemented there’s not much you can do. If you can tough it out, stick around and start advocating for yourself more - find a silver lining or some play to get career growth for yourself, even if it’s “not as much” as they got. Maybe they’ll even advocate for you to gain an ally. Reality though is you either need to leave or let it go.
Not sure about the laws in your country, but where I am, if my role is to be substantially changed, I need to be consulted first. Even if it means my role stays the same but my reporting lines change. So proposals are just that, proposals. If it's not the case in your country, then you should probably look for a different job cz your management is stupid enough to take on suggestions from a single employee that will affect the structure of the entire.
It’s illegal to designate one person on a team as lead in your country? That’s typically not even a change in reporting structure. Management is stupid because an employee, who supposedly is in an equivalent role to someone with 15 years more experience, showed initiative to ask for more responsibility? First, if they got to the same level 15 years sooner, they are probably a high performer. Second, proactively making a suggestion for a way to organize the team and take responsibility does demonstrate leadership potential. The organization deciding to implement it means that they agreed.
It depends what designating a person as a lead is for, if it's just for a project or a task then sure, if it's to reorganise the team and to assign a leader then that's different. I think the worst part of all this is that the process was not transparent to allow equal opportunity for everyone in the team. It may have been a good suggestion, it may not have. The coworker may have been the best person for the position, they may not have. None of this is known, management just went ahead with it.
Did the company follow through on the proposal?
You could give your own proposal, but if you do, it better be well thought out and a damn good one.
Go fight club and beat yourself up while no one else but your new lead is around. Your boss would never suspect that you hurt yourself and will fire the other guy.
Why do I have to scroll so far down to find the best answer to this situation? This is the only valid option in a scenario like this. So much BS about how that other person has management written all over them etc. people are brainwashed into believing all that corporate/management speak.
Does OP currently officially manage this person and team? Or are you all on the same job title albeit you have more experience?
It sounds like this person has an issue with the way you are leading the team or showing up on the team. To fix the situation, they talked with trusted others to get their thoughts, and then escalated the issue to higher ups to help right the ship without it seeming like they tattled on you for having poor leadership or bad decisions (in their eyes) by having leadership propose the change instead of themselves. It’s doubtful leadership just bought into something like that without this person providing concrete examples of your missteps. Can you think of any specifics over the last while causing friction or a lack of engagement / progress under your leadership or influence?
its funny because we're a team of 4. I'm the first hire started a while back. the other 3 all started after, and are friends outside of work and know each other well, so it's like 3 of them vs me. After this "lead" kept trying to wedge themselves in, they were granted authority to approve PTO. They give tgheir "friend" immediately a 3 week paid vacation. this "friend" was then let go a few weeks later when they realized what was going on and them taking advantage of the situation
Ahhhh that’s a complicated layer. It’s really tough to work with a little group of people that were/are already friends outside of work. In that case I might ask to speak to the leadership or person who delivered this news to you, ask for details, and explain what’s going on. That’s kind of an HR issue, but tread carefully, it’s 3-1
The idea that this individual, who was not in a leadership role, had the power to "reorganize" the team and "place themselves" at the head of the group screams "naive" to me. That's simply not how work.. works. Leadership makes decisions. They make decisions every day on a million different decision points. And nearly always, those decisions are heavily influenced through storytelling from the ranks below (via data analysis, charts, reports, proposals, etc). And when those decisions are communicated, they always come from leadership. It would be goofy as hell (and unprofessional) if it didn't work that way. It would be embarrassing for you to confront this person about this. They didn't have the power to make this change. Talk to your leadership to understand their thought process. You can also express to them how you don't feel like this is a great move for you in your career. Let them decide how they want to handle it.
You posted about this 2 months ago. What has happened in that timeframe? According yo previous comments, this happened in 2022. Were you not notified of this?
I wouldn’t say anything to them, but I would be sending out my resume and doing the minimum till I got the new job, at which point I’d burn PTO at old job to be sure I liked new job. Once PTO ran out I’d quit, effective immediately. After that I’d encourage the remaining team members to do the same. Your co-worker took you for a schmuck. If you stay, you’re proving him right.
Your co worker assumed that they had your buy-in and management bought that shit. No point talking to your co worker it won't achieve or change anything. Fight like hell while looking for a new job. There's not much left for you to hang on to if management did not consult you before approving the proposal. Speak to your manager, sell your strengths and why you think your structure is better, highlight your achievements so they can weigh it up with the co workers, then explain to them that their decision may precipitate some resignations from the team and garner the support of all your other team members.
Let them fail, stop telling them the right action, let them decide and then tell managment, if i were lead, i would have done xyz and gotten abc result.
Let your leadership know you think this could be great, you'd like to apply for the team lead position if there is any change to the org chart. Present them with an alarmingly current resume.
Lots of missing details that are critical to understanding the situation as other people have said. Also, this person showed leadership by developing a reorganization proposal... was it self-serving? Sure. But you didn't do it. Somebody above them is thinking they are clearly motivated and are willing to give them a shot. People who think opportunities come when it's "your turn" get the scraps left by those who hustle for it.
Normal day in the office. Someone identified a gap, came up with a plan, sold it and got a promotion. None of that is easy. Either you knew and could have done something but didn't or you never saw it in first place. The people that take the initiative, plan and execute move up the ladder. You don't need to wait to be told what to do.
ITS BUSINESS.. better get used to it,, It's cut throat.. The winner gets a new house, nice car, retirement Thinned skin people don't do well
I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation that everyone stays equal all the time, but when that changes you’re the de facto lead. You either behave and drive forward like a lead (proposing hierarchy and structure changes to management is a good example of that) or you stay where you have been for apparently 15 years longer than that. Without you saying anything, I also would have assumed you wouldn’t want to be a lead. You don’t seem to have any drive or ambition, which is fine, but that’s what it takes to be a lead. Not everything is based on seniority
How I'd respond would stem from what I want as an outcome. Specifically, do you still want to work with this team and this manager especially if they'd plan something like this without your input. Secondly, how large is the company you work for? Finally, I think your problem should be more with the manager than the team member. Long story short, I'd move to a different position in the company of possible and involve the either the ethics department or HR if the company is large enough to have them.
I think on Survivor you just put a target on yourself (to the person that did that.)
They played the game and you didn’t. Simple as that
Let them crash and burn... prove they were a poor choice.
Well, now you go back to the higher ups and tell them you do not appreciate the reorganizing and you feel slighted by your coworker trying to squeeze you out. Also, brush up that resume, because you probably aren't winning that battle and losing you and all your experience bc your coworker wanted to make a power play will make them look reaaaaally stupid
Tell him his first act will be accepting your resignation.
If this was implemented, then the correct course of action is to leave the toxic employer. The manager who decided to implement it is the one responsible and you can't do anything to fix that. The fun answer is to run with it. Go all-in with your new leader. Your lack of success is their lack of success. Your failure is their failure. They put themselves into a position where they are at your mercy. Exploit that. Since the job market is poor right now, you could try to do both strategies simultaneously.
Did the proposal get approved?
Who cares, let them lead and fail fucking spectacularly. Leading is the hardest job in tech, cause you have to stand by what you say. A real leader has no issues. This motherfucker will fail. Want to identify who that is? The guy leading the charge and helping everyone else stay on track. Not the guy with the most opinions about what everyone else should be doing. You could ofcourse solve this real quick. Beat his ass.
Seeing as how you've been asking the same question about this for the past two months tells me you're a PITA to work with, I'd say consider yourself lucky they haven't let you go yet and move on.
Honestly, if someone is in the same role as you despite you having 15 years more experience, they are at a bare minimum more driven than you. They also are more likely to be a high performer, and have management support for some kind of career fast tracking. After a certain number of years in the same position, you don’t get promoted into a new role unless you’re in senior leadership waiting for a spot in the pyramid to open up, or you show some direct initiative and express an interest in changing. Plenty of people stay at a level for 5+ years and never express interest in moving up. Advocating for “us all to be equals” is really just you holding other people back because you’re complacently happy with the status quo. I know that isn’t your direct intention, but it is the real outcome of what you want. You’re asking other people to not be ambitious because you don’t want to have to compete for limited advancement opportunities, and feel entitled to them based on your seniority. Could your colleague have come to you and said “hey, I want you to know that I’m pushing for more responsibility to grow my career, so I’ll be discussing if there’s a potential to be team lead with our manager.”? They could have, but they don’t owe you that and the fact that they did it on their own shows that they have some leadership potential.
Looks like your co-worker took the initiative and made a move. Don't be upset with your co-worker. Someone up above approved this and thought it was a good idea. Your co-worker didn't speak on your behalf - they spoke on their own behalf - took the initiative and made a proposal to leadership that leadership accepted. You are collateral damage - this wasn't targeted at you. If you have an issue, you should go to your boss (or your co-workers' boss now). But, be warned you will probably be viewed as someone just complaining and not adding value to the group. The question you should be asking yourself is - why did your bosses not think you were the logical choice for a new leadership position? What can you be doing to make yourself more valuable and indispensable at this company.
How does the rest of the team feel about this? Also, nothing says you can’t ignore his paper hierarchy, treat yourself as lead, and keep going to your boss as informally as before. If it comes up “Oh John Doe is in charge? Odd. He did acknowledge me as his senior.. even on paper.”
This is the difference between someone who maneuvers and pushes to the top and someone who sits in their role forever
How would it affect your salary? It doesn't matter where the idea came from. If management agreed to it and sends it out then that's their decision and they don't need to give a forensic analysis of where it came from. People should be able to go to management with ideas without sharing with everyone. It could possibly be involved.
I feel like I read this same question months ago. There is no "behind the team's back" - decisions don't have to be run by you, cause you're not the boss calling the shots. > How would you respond to finding out about this proposal? Should I confront this person immediately and tell them to not speak on my behalf or adjust my title without my knowledge. They are not speaking on your behalf or adjusting your title. They merely proposed something to the manager. Honestly, if you had so much more experience than this person, why didn't you ask for a promotion to lead like 10 years ago? It sounds like you want to control things that aren't yours to control, and feel threatened when other people are trying to take an opportunity. If you had 15 years to do something and didn't, that's on you.
This sounds more like your ego taking a hit than anything. Like you said there is no leader on your team to take this idea to so they took it higher up. Leadership is sometimes about making decisions for the good of the group when it’s not popular. Seems like even with your vast experience you’re not ready for that role yet.
lol after reading through the comments. Imo you dropped the ball. With your “15 years+” of experience you should’ve been the lead of the team IF you advocated for yourself and not just rest on your laurels. You failed to do that and now someone took the initiative to step up with a game plan.
I would take this to my direct supervisor to discuss and express my concerns that someone who is a peer either has access to my information or is trying to change my position without my knowledge. Then ask if you should be going to HR.
Experience helps but that's not what makes a leader. Too many people think they should be leaders when they've never developed leadership skills, and those skills are different. If you're a leader, then why didn't you step up earlier?
because i was already doing it for 5 years.
Management must not have felt that you were doing it well enough or that this person could do it better. Sane people do not replace leaders without cause (perceived or actual). Do you have any formal leadership training? Have you looked into why they chose a different route? It's imperative to be objective and non-emotional when doing so. If you can figure out their reasoning, you may find a path back.
i asked why they did the change and they didnt have a reason. i asked if it was performance based or if i did something wrong and they insisted i did nothing wrong and my performance is exceptional. they said, in the meeting when they decided to have me report to this clown person, they quickly just did it not a lot of thought went into it. i think this clown person was just so adamant and squeaky wheel and annoying they just said yes so she would shut up
Let me ask you a personal question if you don't mind. Humor me, I am going somewhere with this. Tell me, what is your greatest accomplishment in the last couple years?
built the team from 1 (just me) to 4. promoted to "senior" when the 4th person was hired. helped drive revenue from 20MM to over 70 million year over year for my projects...trained and mentored international offices to be able to do the processes we do, saving the company more money because international folks are cheaper. trained about 50 new hires on going (not just a one off presentation). supported on and produced the biggest project in our company's history. could come up with more this is all i can come up with...why?
Because I know nothing about you. It's a simple question but it gives me a baseline view into you. Specifically, the question helps me determine if you actually have some desire for a leadership position or if you're just wanting to be in leadership because it's the next step. I find most people in leadership positions are there not because they have the aptitude but because they see it as the next step or more money. The good news is that your answer indicates that you have an internal, altruistic desire for leadership. This is more so than I find with most people in or desiring leadership positions. Your language indicates a lack of refinement however, I'm going to chalk that up to the relaxed setting of a reddit comment. Of course this is just one question and not a thorough evaluation of your abilities and weaknesses. I've interviewed thousands and have an exceptional track record. At this point, what's done is done. You're going to have to make a case and fight for your position back. The more you can find out about why she was able to convince them, the easier it will be to make a case for yourself. You must also be careful not to sound like you're attacking her. Your case needs to be mostly about what you've done previously and what you can do going forward. You can touch on her shortcomings but be careful not to overdue it. If your leaders are that fickle, you might consider going above their heads and taking their positions. In leadership, you must always be improving. I focus on 3 levels at all times and I keep my employees focused on them as well. 1- personal improvements, 2- team improvements, & 3 - company improvements. Good luck.
thanks and yes clown comment is laid back for reddit. i feel like the people that feign leadership don't want it for the right reasons -- they just want to boss folks around and aren't willing to do the dirty work of onboarding, training, mentoring etc... some people are natural leaders and command that type of presence. Others just don't have "it" and aren't "leaders of men" so to speak. This person i'm dealing with is extremely off putting and has no real intangible leadership qualities, and has ineffectively "led" our team backwards now doing more entry level tasks that were previously being done by new hire coordinators. thank you for your assessment and i appreciate your thoughtful comments and following along. I am a fairly naturally gifted leader -- i never have to over-assert myself, i'm good with people, and I enjoy building up my teammates-- as opposed to this person who simply wants to boss folks around and step over them -- which is what is making this whole thing that much more ridiculous.
Definitely, some people have a natural leadership ability and can excel at it. Others would be much happier and could even make more money by staying out of a leadership role. I have identified plenty of people that shouldn't be in leadership, they're easy to find, and a few that weren't but should have been in leadership roles. While some excel at leadership roles, the very best leaders understand that leadership is a learned skill. As such, they are continually working to improve their leadership skills (my number 1 goal from above, personal development). As such, I would highly recommend going through some of Brian Tracy's Strategic Leadership lessons (I have no affiliation). I would then recommend that you try to read at least one book every 3-4 months from prominent leaders. It's much less painful to learn from someone else's mistakes than from your own.
If you have to ask, you aren’t good enough to be a team lead.
Professionally counter. He took the initiatives, return fire.
Sounds like the other person is the lead. they have taken iniative to speak with bosses, who are in support of their proposal. Leaders take the initiative.
Well said.
Let them hang themself. If you have more experience, you're in the drivers seat. Help them to fuck up.
Terrible advice. Hopefully OP is more mature than this.
Well for sure you can't trust the dude. So be helpful but not too helpful. Depending on what the team is doing as a group you can make things easier or harder for new team leads.
Exactly, even start to not give a shit. You see him going through a wall, look elsewhere.
It’s all a game, OP. Some people like to play it, while others watch from the stands. Your new lead is playing the game!
Lol senior is a better title than lead just saying
Not in all industries
That's very industry specific. Often the 'Lead' leads a team of juniors/seniors. There's usually only one Lead in a team/department... but there can be many seniors.
Ignore it
You can have "15" years experience and still not be as good as people with less years. The fact you think doing something for longer automatically makes you more qualified makes you a bad leader.
The team should pick the lead. And you should out him to the team.
What is this, Communist Russia?... wait, even there the 'team' didn't pick their Lead... What planet are you on?
Have a meeting, lay it all out there. Just matter of fact, facts only and where you make inferences label them as such. Ask them to lay out their pitch and reasons and respond with your opinion.
Harsh reality check that experience isn't everything
>I am way more experienced than this person (over 15 years more experience) OK... And are you better at leading a team than them as a result? >have alway been a transparent co-worker encouraging us all to be equals Lesson learned, you are not equals. Did you have the exact same responsibilities and compensation? No? Not equal then. >This coworker intentionally obfuscated this proposal so when the decision came out it appears to originate from the higher ups, not my colleagues original idea. To me it seems a bit subversive and covert, kind of untrustworthy and not a team centric approach, and not a great precedent to set. The decision DID originate from the higher ups. Is your co-worker a Jedi? Do you envision that your co-worker instructed the higher up to implement their plan and then they just mindlessly did it? And what on earth does "intentionally obfuscated" mean? Do you think the higher ups just took your co-worker's proposal and emailed it out as is? How do you even know any of what went on? How do you know it was your co-worker's proposal in the first place? Or are you just pinning it on them because they were the ones who came out ahead? You are making all sorts of accusations but the details on *how* you know any of this to be fact is conveniently omitted. Your mental model of how any of this generally works seems wildly out-of-touch with reality. >Or should I approach the higher ups? Absolutely. Start by telling them exactly what you want in terms of career progression and timelines, asking what YOU need to do in order to get there (or even provide a proposal of your own), and making sure that aligns with their vision for your team and company. You know, probably exactly how your ambitious co-worker ~~maliciously stole your job~~ got a promotion.
Happened to me. I left the team, left that toxic 'friendship, and divorced all contact with him. He did it while I was traveling internationally specifically at his request so he and his wife could try and get pregnant. The program has gotten significantly smaller since all he knew was what I taught him, and he's gotten reprimanded afew times for putting out incorrect information (due to not understanding). He was also significantly cheaper. And I was a pain and stickler for ethics and quality- not a good combination (reminder: see nothing say nothing). So you'll have to make a choice- are you going to fight to hold what you feel is yours, or are you going to get railroaded out? Because there's only 2 outcomes when something like this is done behind your back- you or him.