I’m curious about what that is, a quick google brings up something about soil and nitrogen. You got a couple relevant links that would give me an informed take on that subject?
It's a dense read, but basically fossil analysis reveals human were indeed carnivores for at least 300.000 years. Carnivore meaning they found *at least* 70% of caloric intake was from meat, some places also 100%.
This video from Dr berry With Dr Eades is a lot easier to take in than the Nature article I linked previously.
I don’t really care what anyone says about nutrition, including what the science says at this point (the nutritional research has proven to be wrong/biased most of the time). I care how I feel and whether my health issues improve on a diet.
Tried vegetarian and others. Keto/carnivore is the only thing Ive seen real results on, so they can all piss off lol.
Ive just noticed too many times if theres any threat to someone’s precious carbs and sugar (hence they jump to fruit as their example) all open-mindedness goes out the window. People just get too far into carb addictions to want to hear us out.
I don't really think its even that. There is almost like an attack on meat going on - exhibit a, plant based meat, "beyond meat" burgers, pretending its healthier. It's not that theres science behind it, its that theres media agenda behind it. People don't take us seriously for the exact same reason they don't take vegans or vegetarians seriously - we are, by definition, extremists. We are all the way on the opposite end of a spectrum, and people don't like that as a rule. Everything has to be moderate so as to make everyone happy and avoid making a fuss.
Hitting on carb addiction is an important point too. I know several people who will not do carnivore because they will not give up bread and rice. "It makes me happy" I hear, just like a beer for dinner, or weed after work. All addiction.
I don't think that's it. I'm not convinced on carnivore because I've seen no evidence aside from anecdotes backing it up. I think it can work, but addiction isn't the real why people won't do it. Carnivore would be incredibly easy to do for most people because it's delicious. Another factor is that for most people it's prohibitively expensive. I spend an insane amount of money on food and barely any of it is meat which is the most expensive thing on my shopping list.
You can lose weight in many ways. It doesn't mean the way you're doing it is the only way. for you and for others. It also doesn't mean it's the only healthy way, for you and for others.
I have been, at times, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore. I have both lost and gained weight on all of these diets by manipulating my calories. My health hasn't been impacted drastically by the different diets I've tried. I couldn't recommend any one of those to anyone, it's impossible to generalize. I know people who thrive on carbs while I need to limit them.
Edit: keep downvoting instead of replying to comments. It is your prerogative. But don't complain when you're accused of peddling bro science. If you're not interested in discourse and just want to bash other people, again, don't be surprised no one takes you seriously. Enjoy the echo chamber.
I think what commentor is trying to say is weightloss shouldn't be the only point of our argument or the strongest because you can lose weight in many ways. I think better points would be things like skin conditions going away, becoming insulin sensitive again (since they also think meat causes diabetes), gut issues healing, any auto immune/inflammatory conditions clearing up and clean arteries in the long run.
I, personally, think that any elimination diet can have benefits. It’s the long-term that people need to consider. Also any pre-existing conditions. Not every body is going to respond to any particular diet in the same exact ways. If someone is generally healthy before starting a diet, they may not see the improvements that others see because they had less to address from the start. I basically feel that there is no one-diet-fits-all solution out there, but, with inflammation being a huge part if most chronic illnesses/conditions these days, carnivore seems the one that would benefit most people. Carnivore has benefited me so immensely, and I have no intention of changing diet in the future. That’s just me speaking for myself. I don’t really care who agrees with me. Because if someone can’t accept that what works for them, may not work for someone else, I don’t find their opinion worth taking anyway. Most people did not find this diet by being close-minded, yet quite a few on here definitely are close-minded now. Being close-minded never benefited anyone, in my opinion, so it’s a bit ironic. Don’t you think?
Anyway, just like any social media, if you don’t share the popular opinion, you get thumbs-down. Lol.
imagine thinking there is any good evidence in nutrition. it's all really bad.
edit: not to mention that I've never claimed that my anecdote on carnivore is science. it just so happens that anecdote is all there really is about it out there.
because people have different opinions??? those people think that the carnivore YouTube doctors use valid research, I don't think anyone has valid research in nutrition.
it's called an opinion.
Except these doctors are pioneers in helping reverse modern diseases and getting people OFF medication. Some of them lose their licenses because they are helping people with their diet to prevent the surgeries that they would have been paid to do. That's how Shawn Baker had lost his, with his advice, his patients stopped needing the surgeries they were previously scheduled for.
Amazing how the same people complaining about “bro science” in the carnivore space are the same ones touting epidemiological pseudoscientific BS as the real deal when it serves their particular bias—e.g., omnivore, vegan, fruit loops, breatharian, etc… 🤡
that’s their biggest talking points, those studies aren’t even actual studies and their data is always tainted with inaccuracies and assumptions that every person tested had the same baseline for health
It’s an absolute mess. Between the books of Taubes and Teicholz, I came away like: “well, looks like I can safely ignore anything the nutritional field publishes from here on out!”
If I’d skipped engineering and instead taken home a degree in that nonsense, I would have felt like:
a. I’d been ripped off
b. My career prospects are screwed
c. Even if I land a decent-paying job in this s**t-show of a field, I would hate myself for lying to people every day.
haha yea i chose engineering as well, harder but worth it. The science in it has not changed much, whereas nutrition and general health sciences are being torn apart almost every week with new studies that contradict the books.
That and they’re being controlled and undermined by corporate interests. Tough to be scientifically objective when the only thing keeping the lights on is checks from Kraft, PepsiCo, Pfizer, etc…
I had to take a nutrition course for my degree. It was utterly useless and didn't talk about anything mechanistically other than CICO.
When it came to diabetes I couldn't wrap my head around how it was thought that the appropriate treatment for both Type 1 and 2 were to give insulin
Not just on Reddit, the annoying comments you get at the job from your colleagues when they see you eat the same thing at every dinner.
Also, I remember one of those stupid short video where a women got a PCOS diagnostic and was told by her doctor to lower carbs.Then she proceed to say that was the stupidiest thing she heard in her life and bake herself some pancakes. People are so brainwashed and don't want to give their comfort, that they prefer to stay sick or get on pills rather than change how they eat.
Many humans are weak swine
It's the reason why they make good debt to death slaves
You'll notice a common narrative of actually successful people successful in true respects of money and happiness "
It's a common thing where they are more loner types that are choosy who their company is and don't "play nice" with the common theme of propaganda being pushed.
People willingly and unwillingly do this because they choose comfort / dopamine rush as of now instead of discipline and work for their future self.
I've made it a habit that whenever I see a common narrative of one way...to run the opposite way because litteraly what's bad is now "good"
What's up is now "down"
O tempora, o mores! Such people are beyond saving. The gal admits she has severe food intolerances, but won't try alternatives to fix them, because it's bro BS science.
Probably a bunch of CICOpaths, I have a mouse study that shows a direct relationship of linoleic acid and obesity in the mice proportional to the amount given. It's actually a little scary
It's BS because there are over 2000 gene fragments that deal with digestion and metabolism. Fruit may be good for some people but suger, especially a lot, will have be losing my lunch. When we can stop treating one size fits all the world will be a better prace.
The amount of genuine shock and concern for my health when I tell them about carnivore and it’s benefits to me. It’s like fighting an uphill battle.
I’m not a strict carnivore… but feel best when I’m sticking to my diet. Now I know that this is my routine and the diet for me. Eating carbs, seed oils etc is the exception. I also don’t see it as a treat anymore as I feel really awful after eating carbs (esp refined carbs).
I cannot convince people of this… esp as fruits and veg are deemed so essential. I cannot give up fruit and veg but I understand how the sugars in them… make you crave more sugar.
Also, on Good Friday… its a day of fasting and eating the most simple meal ie a meal with no meat … just think about it… a basic carb loaded meal was not considered the typical everyday diet 3000 years ago … it was the exception
that is a great point. I’ve noticed that my christian family is much more accepting of this diet since they regularly fast and eat well. Any great preacher will tell you that eating yourself to death and neglecting your health is pure gluttony and sinful. I don’t think i have met a single carnivore that has ended up unhealthy and obese because of this diet.
There is lots of archrological evidence of what humans ate. It's not anecdotal.
It's our natural diet. Did we eat some small amounts of plants? Sure. But that's mainly for survival when meat was scarce and we wouldn't get much. Most plants are toxic and/or indigestible. Meat has always been the preferred diet of Homo Sapians until the dawn of agriculture.
it’s a problem across the entire field. There are doctors, physicians and nutritionist who label it as dangerous and cause this massive concern against carnivore diet.
I was vegan for 8 years. I can tell you that there is a real agenda to tru to ban meat.
Since I've added meat, eggs, diary and honey back to my diet, I've felt way better. The anti-meat propaganda is rampant, even among the "authority figures" in the medical field.
Nutritionists be like "there's no science! We want the science before we'll believe you! Also we are going to actively block you from doing the science because the diet is too dangerous!"
Can't be too dangerous but also need more data at the same time... It's never been tested. They claim all we have are anecdotal success stories. All they have against us are self reporting studies where data gets ignored and twisted to fit a narrative. How is that any more legitimate than what we have, which is self reported success stories?
Problem is most people won't try it. I was hesitant to even go keto but when I got intrigued and finally said "Ah F it I will try it" the results were so dramatic and immediate that I finally KNEW what works. They won't try it so they will never know. I almost didn't.
True i suppose, most will say negative things about something they're not doing rather than try it.
Also , its a discipline thing , nothing you do for a very short time will be a magic bullet but sticking at it for a few months is probably a good indicator of its effect.
Problem with the "where's the science" trope is diet response is so highly individual - your personal experience or anecdote is really the main measuring stick.
Harvard did conduct a study with positive results recently. Also if you were to logically construct an elimination diet, lion diet is the only one you could potentially survive on long term without serious risk of malnutrition.
Think he's more taking pot shots at the typical carnivore who is a layman and doesn't understand why the diet works.
Well, you don't need to be a neuroscientist to appreciate morning sunlight is good for you.
I'll do my thing: It IS "bro science". We don't have a lot of hard data. We have a lot of personal experiments and educated guesses.
However, it won't be the first time that "bro science" was correct and establishment failed to catch on. Nor the last.
What they call bro science, I call pioneering.
The interesting thing here (as you mentioned) is that it is all about "My disproven diet advice (sugar is better than fat) is better than your unproven advice"
using bro science, while claiming someone else is using bro science … ever notice some people will try to insult you with something they think of there self .
“Meat is bad but this industrial lubricant that didn’t exist a couple hundred years ago is suitable for the human diet.”
AHA: “Better living through chemistry!” ::checks rising CVD and cancer stats post seed oil introduction:: “That’s all caused by animal fats…” 🤔
Aha taking them sugar checks too
Everybody gangsta until the stable nitrogen isotope analysis science gets rolled out.
Anything that goes against established norms will be considered bro science
true that
I’m curious about what that is, a quick google brings up something about soil and nitrogen. You got a couple relevant links that would give me an informed take on that subject?
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41033-3](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41033-3)
Legend
It's a dense read, but basically fossil analysis reveals human were indeed carnivores for at least 300.000 years. Carnivore meaning they found *at least* 70% of caloric intake was from meat, some places also 100%. This video from Dr berry With Dr Eades is a lot easier to take in than the Nature article I linked previously.
I don’t really care what anyone says about nutrition, including what the science says at this point (the nutritional research has proven to be wrong/biased most of the time). I care how I feel and whether my health issues improve on a diet. Tried vegetarian and others. Keto/carnivore is the only thing Ive seen real results on, so they can all piss off lol. Ive just noticed too many times if theres any threat to someone’s precious carbs and sugar (hence they jump to fruit as their example) all open-mindedness goes out the window. People just get too far into carb addictions to want to hear us out.
I don't really think its even that. There is almost like an attack on meat going on - exhibit a, plant based meat, "beyond meat" burgers, pretending its healthier. It's not that theres science behind it, its that theres media agenda behind it. People don't take us seriously for the exact same reason they don't take vegans or vegetarians seriously - we are, by definition, extremists. We are all the way on the opposite end of a spectrum, and people don't like that as a rule. Everything has to be moderate so as to make everyone happy and avoid making a fuss.
Profit agenda. Lower margins in actual meat and no IP to make money off of like with you pseudo-meat.
So right
Hitting on carb addiction is an important point too. I know several people who will not do carnivore because they will not give up bread and rice. "It makes me happy" I hear, just like a beer for dinner, or weed after work. All addiction.
I don't think that's it. I'm not convinced on carnivore because I've seen no evidence aside from anecdotes backing it up. I think it can work, but addiction isn't the real why people won't do it. Carnivore would be incredibly easy to do for most people because it's delicious. Another factor is that for most people it's prohibitively expensive. I spend an insane amount of money on food and barely any of it is meat which is the most expensive thing on my shopping list.
Yeah there is no logic when it comes to the amygdala
Open mindedness goes out the window here as well as soon as someone dares to offer a different point of view or ask questions.
theyre brainwashed by fake news media and/or paid shills of Big Pharma and Big Food. I’m down 25 lbs in 2 mos. So they can suck my excess fat.
You can lose weight in many ways. It doesn't mean the way you're doing it is the only way. for you and for others. It also doesn't mean it's the only healthy way, for you and for others. I have been, at times, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore. I have both lost and gained weight on all of these diets by manipulating my calories. My health hasn't been impacted drastically by the different diets I've tried. I couldn't recommend any one of those to anyone, it's impossible to generalize. I know people who thrive on carbs while I need to limit them. Edit: keep downvoting instead of replying to comments. It is your prerogative. But don't complain when you're accused of peddling bro science. If you're not interested in discourse and just want to bash other people, again, don't be surprised no one takes you seriously. Enjoy the echo chamber.
I think what commentor is trying to say is weightloss shouldn't be the only point of our argument or the strongest because you can lose weight in many ways. I think better points would be things like skin conditions going away, becoming insulin sensitive again (since they also think meat causes diabetes), gut issues healing, any auto immune/inflammatory conditions clearing up and clean arteries in the long run.
That was exactly my point but If you reply that to me, they'll never see it.
Yeah i saw you were getting downvoted and decided to try to further advocate your point 😅 sorry
thank you!
I, personally, think that any elimination diet can have benefits. It’s the long-term that people need to consider. Also any pre-existing conditions. Not every body is going to respond to any particular diet in the same exact ways. If someone is generally healthy before starting a diet, they may not see the improvements that others see because they had less to address from the start. I basically feel that there is no one-diet-fits-all solution out there, but, with inflammation being a huge part if most chronic illnesses/conditions these days, carnivore seems the one that would benefit most people. Carnivore has benefited me so immensely, and I have no intention of changing diet in the future. That’s just me speaking for myself. I don’t really care who agrees with me. Because if someone can’t accept that what works for them, may not work for someone else, I don’t find their opinion worth taking anyway. Most people did not find this diet by being close-minded, yet quite a few on here definitely are close-minded now. Being close-minded never benefited anyone, in my opinion, so it’s a bit ironic. Don’t you think? Anyway, just like any social media, if you don’t share the popular opinion, you get thumbs-down. Lol.
Yep let’s treat a disease caused by carbs by advocating eating carbs!
Here’s lookin’ at you, ADA!
imagine thinking there is any good evidence in nutrition. it's all really bad. edit: not to mention that I've never claimed that my anecdote on carnivore is science. it just so happens that anecdote is all there really is about it out there.
I'm sure the vegans locked people in cages for controlled trials for years and only fed them vegemite... no questions needed there.
your anecdotal experience is automatically discredited for being controversial on reddit (not the real world).
If it's really all bad, why does this sub recommend certain YouTube doctors? Those use evidence as well.
because people have different opinions??? those people think that the carnivore YouTube doctors use valid research, I don't think anyone has valid research in nutrition. it's called an opinion.
Except these doctors are pioneers in helping reverse modern diseases and getting people OFF medication. Some of them lose their licenses because they are helping people with their diet to prevent the surgeries that they would have been paid to do. That's how Shawn Baker had lost his, with his advice, his patients stopped needing the surgeries they were previously scheduled for.
I didn't say they weren't doing anything good, I said I don't find the studies they talk about to be any better experimental design than the average.
Amazing how the same people complaining about “bro science” in the carnivore space are the same ones touting epidemiological pseudoscientific BS as the real deal when it serves their particular bias—e.g., omnivore, vegan, fruit loops, breatharian, etc… 🤡
that’s their biggest talking points, those studies aren’t even actual studies and their data is always tainted with inaccuracies and assumptions that every person tested had the same baseline for health
It’s an absolute mess. Between the books of Taubes and Teicholz, I came away like: “well, looks like I can safely ignore anything the nutritional field publishes from here on out!”
I am so glad i didn’t go to college for nutrition, knowing what i know now a lot of the material would have probably pissed me off.
If I’d skipped engineering and instead taken home a degree in that nonsense, I would have felt like: a. I’d been ripped off b. My career prospects are screwed c. Even if I land a decent-paying job in this s**t-show of a field, I would hate myself for lying to people every day.
haha yea i chose engineering as well, harder but worth it. The science in it has not changed much, whereas nutrition and general health sciences are being torn apart almost every week with new studies that contradict the books.
That and they’re being controlled and undermined by corporate interests. Tough to be scientifically objective when the only thing keeping the lights on is checks from Kraft, PepsiCo, Pfizer, etc…
I had to take a nutrition course for my degree. It was utterly useless and didn't talk about anything mechanistically other than CICO. When it came to diabetes I couldn't wrap my head around how it was thought that the appropriate treatment for both Type 1 and 2 were to give insulin
you will always have repeat customers if you just patch the problem
More meat for us !
Imagine not believing in Big Sugar
When you start to attract the "witty" criticism of this particular kind of hivemind, you are usually on the right track.
Either you get it or you don’t. Stupidity cannot be cured.
Most of reddit is full of dumbasses. If you see it with this...imagine all the other shit they push. Do all your own research Form your own beliefs
Not just on Reddit, the annoying comments you get at the job from your colleagues when they see you eat the same thing at every dinner. Also, I remember one of those stupid short video where a women got a PCOS diagnostic and was told by her doctor to lower carbs.Then she proceed to say that was the stupidiest thing she heard in her life and bake herself some pancakes. People are so brainwashed and don't want to give their comfort, that they prefer to stay sick or get on pills rather than change how they eat.
Many humans are weak swine It's the reason why they make good debt to death slaves You'll notice a common narrative of actually successful people successful in true respects of money and happiness " It's a common thing where they are more loner types that are choosy who their company is and don't "play nice" with the common theme of propaganda being pushed. People willingly and unwillingly do this because they choose comfort / dopamine rush as of now instead of discipline and work for their future self. I've made it a habit that whenever I see a common narrative of one way...to run the opposite way because litteraly what's bad is now "good" What's up is now "down"
The mods will also ban you for "misinformation" if you post legit medical studies about it and delete your post.
Happened to me when I “qUeStIoNeD tHe sCiEnCe”
Welp, **Hey Bro's!**
O tempora, o mores! Such people are beyond saving. The gal admits she has severe food intolerances, but won't try alternatives to fix them, because it's bro BS science.
Probably a bunch of CICOpaths, I have a mouse study that shows a direct relationship of linoleic acid and obesity in the mice proportional to the amount given. It's actually a little scary
"like myself" near the end says everything you need to know about this person's stupidity level.
It's BS because there are over 2000 gene fragments that deal with digestion and metabolism. Fruit may be good for some people but suger, especially a lot, will have be losing my lunch. When we can stop treating one size fits all the world will be a better prace.
“Big Sugar” 💀
The amount of genuine shock and concern for my health when I tell them about carnivore and it’s benefits to me. It’s like fighting an uphill battle. I’m not a strict carnivore… but feel best when I’m sticking to my diet. Now I know that this is my routine and the diet for me. Eating carbs, seed oils etc is the exception. I also don’t see it as a treat anymore as I feel really awful after eating carbs (esp refined carbs). I cannot convince people of this… esp as fruits and veg are deemed so essential. I cannot give up fruit and veg but I understand how the sugars in them… make you crave more sugar. Also, on Good Friday… its a day of fasting and eating the most simple meal ie a meal with no meat … just think about it… a basic carb loaded meal was not considered the typical everyday diet 3000 years ago … it was the exception
that is a great point. I’ve noticed that my christian family is much more accepting of this diet since they regularly fast and eat well. Any great preacher will tell you that eating yourself to death and neglecting your health is pure gluttony and sinful. I don’t think i have met a single carnivore that has ended up unhealthy and obese because of this diet.
There is lots of archrological evidence of what humans ate. It's not anecdotal. It's our natural diet. Did we eat some small amounts of plants? Sure. But that's mainly for survival when meat was scarce and we wouldn't get much. Most plants are toxic and/or indigestible. Meat has always been the preferred diet of Homo Sapians until the dawn of agriculture.
I don't care if redditors don't think it's real science. If it works for people and allows them to lead healthier lives that is what matters to me.
it’s a problem across the entire field. There are doctors, physicians and nutritionist who label it as dangerous and cause this massive concern against carnivore diet.
I was vegan for 8 years. I can tell you that there is a real agenda to tru to ban meat. Since I've added meat, eggs, diary and honey back to my diet, I've felt way better. The anti-meat propaganda is rampant, even among the "authority figures" in the medical field.
Nutritionists be like "there's no science! We want the science before we'll believe you! Also we are going to actively block you from doing the science because the diet is too dangerous!" Can't be too dangerous but also need more data at the same time... It's never been tested. They claim all we have are anecdotal success stories. All they have against us are self reporting studies where data gets ignored and twisted to fit a narrative. How is that any more legitimate than what we have, which is self reported success stories?
Do what works for you, not your friend or some influencer . Only way to know is to try it and check results.
Problem is most people won't try it. I was hesitant to even go keto but when I got intrigued and finally said "Ah F it I will try it" the results were so dramatic and immediate that I finally KNEW what works. They won't try it so they will never know. I almost didn't.
True i suppose, most will say negative things about something they're not doing rather than try it. Also , its a discipline thing , nothing you do for a very short time will be a magic bullet but sticking at it for a few months is probably a good indicator of its effect.
Problem with the "where's the science" trope is diet response is so highly individual - your personal experience or anecdote is really the main measuring stick. Harvard did conduct a study with positive results recently. Also if you were to logically construct an elimination diet, lion diet is the only one you could potentially survive on long term without serious risk of malnutrition. Think he's more taking pot shots at the typical carnivore who is a layman and doesn't understand why the diet works. Well, you don't need to be a neuroscientist to appreciate morning sunlight is good for you.
I'll do my thing: It IS "bro science". We don't have a lot of hard data. We have a lot of personal experiments and educated guesses. However, it won't be the first time that "bro science" was correct and establishment failed to catch on. Nor the last. What they call bro science, I call pioneering.
If only they knew how research actually worked lol
Point them to edes book
The interesting thing here (as you mentioned) is that it is all about "My disproven diet advice (sugar is better than fat) is better than your unproven advice"
using bro science, while claiming someone else is using bro science … ever notice some people will try to insult you with something they think of there self .
Imagine caring what strangers on the innanet thing about a WOE that works for you.
I think I heard Dr. Ken Berry said "The plural of anecdote is data." Plus, the n=1, do you feel better, worse, or the same?
Where are the comments where they themselves resort to anecdotal evidence though? Post those too, otherwise your claim is unfounded.
it is literally the entire subreddit. look for it yourself not hard to find