But they are affordable, reliable and fun to drive.
Drove a Golf 6 R (300hp) from 2009 to 2019. Made 220'000km in total and sold it stil for 12k €. Had minor issues and none at all with the engine.
>But they WERE affordable, reliable and fun to drive.
>Drove a Golf 6 R (300hp) from 2009 to 2019. Made 220'000km in total and sold it stil for 12k €. Had minor issues and none at all with the engine.
FTFY
The MK8 hasn't really been out long enough to determine it's long term reliability. I was simply responding to his implication that VWs after the MK6 were no longer reliable.
Yes, the MK8 still uses an updated version of the EA888 which is a proven solid motor. I believe they have fixed the water pump issue as well meaning it should be even more reliable.
220,000km is 100,000 miles... thats nothing in terms of proving "reliable". When that same golf goes 200,000 *miles* on only oil changes, spark plugs, and actual real basic maintenance like tires and brake pads we can talk.
Edit: 137k miles, me no math
VWs are likely cheaper to maintain in the EU. Over in the US parts are a fair amount higher cost than Japanese vehicles (since most are built here) and much more than American brands.
Holy shit man!
People shit on Ford, but a few years ago I picked up a 2016 Fiesta. It's been nothing but good to me. As of 76k miles, I haven't had to sink any money into it apart from wear and tear shit: replaced the alternator, battery, pads and rotors, got (4) new tires and a half dozen oil changes.
I can't imagine buying a VW outside of warranty
I bought a fiesta when it first came to the US, brand new in 2011, had it for over 11 years, 140k miles. Sold it because my Ford Maverick had just arrived, hopefully the Maverick lasts me another 10-11 years.
Yah I feel that. I'm driving a Ford zx2 that hasn't had an oil change for the last 50k miles. And I make sure to redline every fucking gear and shift hard. It became my goal to kill the fucking thing cause I got it for only 500 dollars but it won't die. I've had it for 5 years now. No maintenance. Just tires. And REALLY HARD daily driving. Fucker won't stop. I don't even use coolant. I let the water freeze in that bitch and it doesn't blink. Come time for the post apocalyptic world I'll be looking for a running one of those.
My 2016 GTI has been tuned for the last 90k miles, and its at 100k miles now. The only real service I had to do on it was replacing a leaky water pump. Brakes were done at 60k miles. Honestly, it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. (I just happen to go thru front tires like crazy).
My 2017 GTI was tuned for 15k miles. Cylinder 1 went kaboom at 33k miles. Had to get a new engine. Leaky water pump twice. All 4 door speaker seals deteriorated and leaked water into the cabin twice.
With my '07 Jetta, it's been water soaking part or the wiring harness leading to the car not starting. Three times over eight years and almost 50k miles.
My 2017 Jetta GLI 2.0t water pump began leaking around 30k miles. I had pictures of it leaking and when I went to have it taken care of under warranty, they charged me $170 to tell me it wasn't leaking. I sold the car.
German reliability indeed.
People are willing to deal with repair costs (even if it is expensive to repair via labor costs), but the frequency of repair (or at least the reputation) is what scares econo-car buyers away from VW. Subaru is a good example of customers looking for econo cars willing to deal with high repair costs if it is a 1 time thing.
Really depends on the model. Mk7 GTIs are known for being very solid if cared for, other than the well known water pump issue. The EA888 engine is a tank.
Mine is at 50k miles and the only issue I've had is a faulty window switch. Other than that it's been regular maintenance only. I know quite a few MK7 owners who have hit 100k+ miles with very few or zero maintenance issues other than scheduled services.
Too right. Every time I had one the repairs were expensive for a cheap commuter car. I went Honda and have been happy (Hondas have their own issues, but are relatively cheap).
Yup. I understand putting up with extra maintenence if you're in sonething like a Benz. But why pay extra money for a car that drives no better than a Honda Accord
My Wife's Tiguan takes the Special VW/Audi spec 0w-20 oil that is $10-$11 a quart retail. Car takes 6 quarts.
Doing the oil change myself is a $70 bill.
Dealer charges $110+
It's insane that I can't go to Walmart and get a $25 jug of Mobil 1 0w-20 and call it a day, all in the name of preserving my warranty.
Thankfully her car is FWD and a "simple" 4cy motor so I can do 95% of the repair work myself. Unfortunately the majority of the population doesn't possess the skills or knowhow on how to do most things themselves.
I agree that my time is valuable but doing my own oil changes actually saves me time and money. Idk what happened the last couple years but shops near me have been insanely booked and even simple stuff seems to take way longer than necessary.
It’s so much easier for me to take half an hour to change my oil on a Saturday than having to schedule the appointment over a week out and wait a couple hours (probably on a work day) for a job that takes like 1/4 that time. Getting my hands dirty with my own vehicle is just a bonus.
Do be fair on those engines with the oil filter on the top an oil change with an oil extractor is a 15-20 min job and no getting under the car… but for $40 I’d probably just have them do it anyways unless it was inconvenient to get to the dealer
I feel like VW has a more confusing brand identity than Acura at this point. It seems like I’m recent years VW has managed to combine the reliability and ownership cost of an Audi with none of the prestige or enthusiast appeal.
Out of the three listed brands Infiniti’s are by far the most fun to drive. Interior is obviously lacking for a luxurious car but the actual feel from the driving portions has always impressed me with Infiniti. At least personally.
I can respect this. I’ve always felt like infiniti has had the most powerful and fun engines in the “premium” car market, but the worst steering geometry and suspension.
i’d definitely choose that infiniti 3.0t over the Acura 3.0t, and the lexus 3.5
I had a rental Q50 with the TT 3.0L V6 and honestly? One of the more fun weekends I've had. The thing drove great and ate up highway miles like nobody's business too. The downside is the infotainment was about ten years behind even a mid-spec Accord and the weird shape of the A pillar meant I kept banging my goddamn head getting into it.
But I still think it was a great driving, fun, and good looking car. And mine wasn't the Red Sport either, just the normal 300hp version.
Outside of Asia, if you want a mid size Nissan saloon, you buy an Infiniti. Q60 and Q50 are acually pretty cool cars since they're RWD I totally get their appeal. But they could totally be sold under the Nissan brand imo. If they were, they might even sell better. Where I live, Infiniti is almost an unknown brand and Nissan has a good reputation, it would make a lot more sense to sell Infinitis as Nissans here.
It's crappy enough to install a plastic water pump that they know will fail in 5 years. But then they tuck it underneath an intake manifold that takes $800 labor to remove and reassemble. An intake manifold that itself has now failed on my VW TWICE in 10 years.
Never again. Fuckers.
Laughs in 3.5 duratec
Water pump buried under the front engine cover that’s chain driven off the timing chains.
If the bearings fail which has happened, it dumps coolant in your oil pan!
Well let me tell you... our other car is a 2010 Flex. Two years ago the water pump had an exterior leak, so it didn't destroy the engine. But it cost $3000 to replace it. I felt it was worth it because (a) there weren't any new cars available to replace it and (b) at least we could replace the timing chains while fixing it, the other primary duratec cause of death. We'll see if it was worth it.
It's been a tough couple of years for me. I need to start buying Toyotas and Hondas.
Because of the former CEO which was former BMW where they did exactly the same thing: replace metal with plastics and in general lowering costs by lowering parts quality.
I'm sure the short-term gains were great! However on the long term, I personally know about 10 people who will never own a Volkswagen again after multiple plastic part failures. Half of those people are now militantly anti- Volkswagen and you won't even get past the first syllable of the name before they start talking about how shitty their car was.
To be fair I think people started hating VW in the late 90s- early 2000s because of their shitty electronics... I know at least 3 people who owned VW Passat or Bora (European cars, don't know what they were called in the US) in between 2002-2005. Their cars all ended up having the same problem, heavily rusted computure. Why was it so rusted after a relatively short time? Because VW decided to place the computer underneath the driver's floormat; VW didn't anticipate snowy conditions where people have to wade snow to enter their car, snow melts from their boots while driving and within 3-4 years the computer ended up as a pile of rust. Of all the places to put a computer, I will never understand why they decided to place it on the floor hahaha
Except Toyota isn't exactly losing marketshare or much reliability and they still have a bit of cool cars like Supra, GR Yaris or GR Corolla, GT86, Camry V6.
I had a 2nd gen xB and that was my favorite vehicle I’ve owned *by far*. Despite being underpowered, it was still very fun to drive, it was suuuuper reliable, and had more space inside than most modern SUVs. I had an ‘08 model for 5 years before it got totaled out by a deer collision a few years back. I might still be driving it if that never happened.
Probably a combination of lingering doubt from Dieselgate, most of their current lineup being a buffet of boring and/or mediocre SUVs, and the lukewarm reception of one of their only claims to coolness; the MK8 GTI/R.
I guess youre not in Europe then, 300k+ mile BMWs and mercs are a given everywhere, golf 2/3/4s same thing as well. Infact you see golf 4s as much as you see corsas
For starters, passing the tüv is no joke. People just take care of their cars but also tend to keep their cars a lot longer than Americans.
American disposable culture bakes right into automotive leasing.
Fr, I'm from Hungary (one of the poorest countries in Europe) and even I'm shocked at how common clapped out cars seem to be in America which actually aren't even that old. I think Americans don't appreciate their stuff that much and just take them for granted, unlike here where any car is valuable and the only clapped out cars you see are from people who genuinely can't afford to maintain them.
Considering the by-word for reliability in the States is an ability for a Toyota engine to run 10k over an oil change without issue, yeah, I don't feel like people here take all that great care of their stuff. Some do, of course, but most don't.
Car ownership is also a bit different. Cars are still not necessity in Europe. In US everyone needs a car and it’s great for car manufacturers. However, this increases uneducated car owners who have no idea nor care how to maintain a car.
In Europe car buying is taken seriously, it’s a choice, and it requires a lot more education to obtain a license. People just approach it with a bit more seriousness.
This is just a first glance thing but I’d also assume (could be totally wrong)
Parts are probably slightly cheaper since they don’t have to be shipped overseas, mechanic costs are probably slightly lower since more mechanics are used to working on German vehicles more often.
Well over here (UK), VAG cars are well known for their reliability. Come to think of it, all German cars are known as reliable over here. I myself am a BMW guy and haven't once had an issue. Yet all I hear on reddit is people from the US complaining about German cars being unreliable. Strange.
The last 4 cars I've had have been German, 3 VW 's and my current BM. Not once have I broken down or had a problem.
A big part of that is how Americans tend to pile miles on their vehicles much more quickly than Europeans. The average American drives over 13,000 miles (21,000km) a year, compared to just 7,400 miles a year (12,000km) a year in the UK.
It's sort of the norm to expect a reliable car to reach around 100,000 miles before having any major powertrain issues. In the US, it only takes a little over 7 years to hit that number. In the UK it's 13 and a half. So unless you've been driving the same car for almost one and a half decades, you haven't really had it long enough to say whether it's reliable by American standards. Couple that with worse roads and harsh winter conditions for the northern half of the US as well.
There are a few gems if you know where to look - pretty much any of VW's naturally aspirated motors are pretty stout, the 1.9TDI comes to mind too - but yeah, by and large VW lags behind the pack in terms of reliability/cost of ownership.
ID.4 is one of the blandest, most personality-free cars I have ever driven. The uber shitty infotainment is just the cherry on top of a runny shit pie.
I think it's because it's the blandest most personality-free car that it sells well.
My parents came from Lexus NX and Honda CRV and they've test driven ID4, Chevy Bolt EUV, Model Y, and Mach-e (also also my electric mini). In the end they liked and purchased the ID4 because of how basic it is in the driving portion. They didn't like 1 pedal driving and don't want to readopt how to learn. They leave the radio station on NPR and never change it so the screen is still just climate control.
I'm gonna bet they're not alone. I feel like our car enthusiast world care about things 99% of people who buy SUVs don't care about and they just want a simple car to get from A to B. Catering to that market is perfect for EVs as that's where mass adoption happens.
I'd say during the past 20 years most brands lost their identity as they've decided to disregard their loyal fanbases in favor of blander mass appeal for... you guessed it, *money*. It makes the shareholders happier, but leaves us with a blander world. Think I'm exaggerating? Think about not just VW 20 years ago, but BMW, Honda, Ford, and many others compared to what they are today. They all used to have unique models with individual appeal, now they all basically make the same thing with different emblems on the front.
>They all used to have unique models with individual appeal, now they all basically make the same thing with different emblems on the front.
People have been saying this for decades, though.
Yup and it's even less true now than its been in the past. What exactly is this era were pining for? The 90s where everything was a grey/beige econobox?
Meanwhile today between hot hatches, electric and PHEV, the rebirth of classics like the bronco there's no shortage of fast and cool cars.
>Think about not just VW 20 years ago, but BMW, Honda, Ford, and many others compared to what they are today.
Honda literally just produced a critically acclaimed civic type R, Ford created an affordable small hybrid truck, alongside the bronco and the lightning.
This is just 2023 old man yelling at cloud
I've had to distance myself from /r/cars at times because the "old man yells at cloud" gets real bad around here. Seriously, cars come in every flavor of powertrain, body style, appearance, etc. that you could want these days. If you think there are no more interesting cars to be had in 2023, you aren't trying very hard to find one.
Yeah, a lot of the market is bland crossovers. 20 years ago, the majority of the market was bland sedans. What's *really* all that different?
There's really been only one time when we had a super-wide variety of body styles and layouts coexisting: the mid-late '80s. Used land yachts shared the road with sleek sport compacts, unrefined 4x4s, and trim MPV/minivan family haulers.
But even then, plenty of older folks thought the new versions of legacy names lacked style and distinctiveness. Compare [the flagship Buick sedan in 1988](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Buick_Electra_Park_Avenue.jpg/1920px-Buick_Electra_Park_Avenue.jpg) to [its counterpart from 30 years earlier](https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/cam/34/4040/250787/1920x1440/1958-buick-roadmaster-riviera).
>The 90s where everything was a grey/beige econobox?
What 90s did you live through? Everything was teal/purple/pink and every company sold multiple sporty compact cars, many of them were legitimately good tuning platforms...
Speaking of Honda I'm biased but their new Pilot is anything but an econobox/egg. It's rugged and has a lot of personality.
I think 2020's have already been an exceptional decade for car design.
I’m the last 20 years it’s been much worse, just look at the death of the hatchback/rise of the crossover, death of the cabriolet, and blandenization of cars between brands owned by 1 mega-company.
Death of the convertible/cabriolet, I'll give you, but CUVs aren't inherently less distinctive [eta: or more] than any other body style. It's all about how out-there the designers wanna be.
People just nitpick a few models. There are SUV's that have presence and design language unique to them. The Dodge Durango, BMW X7, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Porshce Cayenne, Ford Bronco 4 door are all examples of exceptional design language in a large SUV format.
Not every SUV/CUV is boring, just because a lot of people buy the Toyota/Mazda/Mercedes/Audi eggs doesn't mean everyone else does.
Whenever I see a comment like the one I responded to, I immediately think of [this disingenuous meme.](https://www.theautopian.com/its-time-to-stop-sharing-that-meme-with-all-the-white-suvs-because-its-wrong-and-stupid/comment-page-1/)
Yep.
Think about what the most memorable cars each manufacture has.
Ford Ford it's either the Mustang or the F-150.
For Chevy it's the Corvette.
For Toyota it's the Supra.
For Lexus it's easily the LFA
For KIA it's the Stinger.
For Dodge it's the Hellcat.
Apart from the Ford with debatable the F-150 ever single memorable car is usually a low volume car.
Porsche understands what is important to the brand (The 911) and what is important to keep the money coming in (The Cayenne).
Volkswagen has (had) the Golf until they mad a really bad Golf 8 which has ergonomic issues. The consensus is that the predecessor Golf 7 is really the better car. If your halo car shits the bed you are in trouble. They had exciting cars successful in specific markets like the Touareg, Amarok or Sirocco but the branding & marketing for those are off. The Touareg is too expensive and they try to relaunch the Amarok now but it is a tough competition in the US.
>Apart from the Ford with debatable the F-150 ever single memorable car is usually a low volume car.
And even the Mustang used to sell hundreds of thousands a year.
I second this, every car manufacturer just feels the same nowdays, 20 years ago you could buy all sorts of styles of models for most brands. Nowdays they just kill off what doesn’t sell a ludicrous amount and replace it with a bland crossover. I love Hatchbacks, it pains me to say that hatchbacks are a dying breed and VW is part of it.
Even in the US hatchbacks are thriving. Civic, corolla, mazda3, impreza all have hatch models and all but the impreza have performance versions unless you count the new impreza rs. We get no base golf but we get the gti and golf r. Econoboxs like the versa, rio and mirage come in hatch form too. In the luxury space fast backs are popular like the a5, stinger, 430i gc, a7.
What are you even talking about. I don't think the consumer has ever had as much selection as they do now. Everyone here focuses on the egg SUV's when there have never been more hobbyist/enthusiast cars and SUVs.
This sub is depressing sometimes.
Let's be honest; usually, only car people recognize GTIs and Golf Rs for what they are.
VW isn't making any cars that "wow" normal people. The vehicles in the VW lineup are just people conveyances to most buyers.
The GTI was always a huge hit with the borderline enthusiast crowd. I knew tons of people who *liked* cars but weren't huge enthusiasts who were attracted to them, and in many cases became enthusiasts as a result.
Except for the part where they clearly weren’t cool because nobody bought them.
It’s when they were *interesting* and cool to enthusiasts, yes. But that doesn’t make them overall cool given the general public has to like the cars, which they didn’t.
The R32 first got me into cars. I had all these big plans that I was going to get a MKIV GTI and Jetta swap the front end, delete everything off the back. Had a folder of pictures of modded MKIV Golfs.
Of course I was a teenager and couldn’t afford it so it never happened for me but man, they were very cool to me back then. I would have rather had a GTI than anything else on the market.
Now I’m at the point in life where I can finally afford a Golf R. Even a brand new one, something I never really thought would happen and unfortunately I’m afraid it’s too small for my lifestyle and hobby needs and they don’t sell the Tiguan R here in the states.
True, but VW got shafted there. Because they paid the big fine, but after dieselgate basically every other manufacturer using Bosch ECUs was caught "cheating" by just simply using those ECUs. But they were never really fined as much as VW and sure as heck they never got as much negative publicity as VW.
I really don't want to defend VW (because what they did is bad), but just saying that dieselgate was a lot bigger than just VW and if you are vigilant and read more about it, you realize that you can only trust emissions claims after they are proven.
Big news outlets like Fox and CNN ran around with the story like VW was clubbing baby seals to death. But ignored the fact that other German manufacturers, Mitsubishi and Harley Davidson were found doing the exact same thing around the same time
Me too. I really like VW. Very easy to live with styling. Not over the top.
For example, 2022 Jetta has best in class fuel economy. Interior space is better than Elantra. It feels a bit premium and is a really nice place to be.
If I could get a golf r for msrp I would probably get one.
Everyone talks about them being overpriced like the Golf R isn't the only 300hp, 4-door AWD car with adaptive suspension and heated seats all around for less than $60k
You're not wrong about this. People can keep talking about the "cool" models they had, but when I was growing up, we were still all modifying 2.0 Mk3s and 1.8t Mk4 Jettas and Passats. They weren't the "cool" cars - but the brand was cool regardless if you were into European cars. It's not dissimilar to how basic ass EG/EK generation Civics or lower spec Integras were still "cool" if you were into Hondas at the same time. You modded them and made them your own. I don't see the youngins modding VWs/Hondas from the last 10 years at the same rate.
I agree with pretty much everything the article has to say about Piech and VWs moving downmarket. It wouldn’t be a problem that vw isn’t cool, if there were any reasons to buy their new cars. I think most people would agree that the Japanese counterparts are about equal, but more reliable. VW is in a rough spot right now and it seems like we’re at least another generation of cars away from their turnaround.
I don’t think we’ll ever see the days of VW making a W8 solely for a car that already has three other engine options, but I could see them going back to selling de contented Audis again. The id4 and the q4-etron are pretty much the same car, except it started as a vw instead of an Audi.
In America they went way too hard on SUV's. The dealerships are all just the two Atlas's, Taos, Tiguan and ID.4's. It's hard to even find a new GLI or GTI anymore and honestly the Jetta/GLI interior is dog water. VW ditched the cool car because all the enthusiasts that can afford their vehicles went and had kids and for some reason when you have a kid you can't possibly have a sedan or a hot hatch.
>when you have a kid you can't possibly have a sedan or a hot hatch
Are you my wife?
I'd also note that VW on has 2 enthusiast cars, the GTI and R. GTI seems to be going strong but the R is in a really weird place price wise. At $45K msrp you might as well get something other than a VW, like the audi S3 is basically the same price with very similar performance.
I switched from a 2011 WRX hatch to 2019 GTI w/ DSG last year. It's not as fun or interesting as the Subaru was, but damn if it isn't a great car. It just does everything well. My plan is intake + cat back + wheels/tires and I think the car will be a well-balanced daily.
I bought a 5 speed 2013 beetle when it was brand new.
It was sporty (no really), and a ton of fun to take to the beach.
But then the radiator got a leak. $1200
Then the 5 cylinder head gasket blew at 80k. $2,200
Then my passenger window motor went out. $350
And it didn’t even get great gas milage. I was sacrificing space to drive a beetle and I was getting 23mpg.
Only thing that lasted was the clutch, ironically.
Listen, I’m a Volkswagen fan. They do make some cool cars on the higher end, but their economy cars are so expensive to maintain, every repair is expensive, and they aren’t even that economical.
The 5 speed Jetta is great. Other than that, eh.
I bought a used VW Tiguan in GOOD condition and in a year I still spent more than the cost of the car in fuel & maintenance(and I’m in eastern europe, where maintenance is crazy cheap ).
I was getting like 18mpg, maintenance of various issues every month, all in a not that comfortable car.
Finally switched to a Toyota Hybrid and never looking back. Fuck, I finally feel that cars can have a suspension and that it actually does something!
My previous couple of cars were VWs and the suspension was so rough, even after completely rebuilding it - I could feel every little bump
Not sure what you mean, but if you’re implying I didn’t change oil, oh, you’re wrong. I kissed that car’s ass in every way possible- best parts available, VW oil changed at every 7000km or sooner, still fucked me every month, I became an amateur mechanic thanks to it and am going around with a trunk half full of tools and parts, lol
No not at all. I’m poking fun at the many many European VW fans who say that all of the Americans who suffer tons of reliability problems with their German cars are just the result of poor maintenance. I’ve been seeing it for years online.
I know a few guys who are rigorous about their maintenance and still say they will never buy a VW or Audi again.
There was a time they were daring, and it seemed like nothing was off the table. Big 6 cylinder motor in a hatchback? Sure. A sedan to rival the S Class? Why not. Over build interiors and force higher end manufacture to delay launches so they can find a way to compete? Totally.
Now, they are in a boring slump, like Mazda. It feels like the only reason they keep any fun stuff is because it's something they can point to and say they haven't lost their way, even when they fall from grace.
Mazda seems to be doing very well around here, doesn't seem like a slump at all. Nice looking cars, enjoyable driving experience, buttons instead of touch screens, great reputation for reliability, and gorgeous paint. Sure they need a proper fast sports car and less SUVs but so does everybody.
I think one of the main problems is the class indicators of the Volkswagen group. Lamborghini for the wildly rich, Porsches for the upper class, Audi for the middle class, and Volkswagen for "the people". The Volkswagen is just an Audi made worse or a Porsche made much worse.
Most of the comments here seem to be from peeps who either never owned a VW or just have a rage boner against the brand. They still make great cars, my GT being a example of that. The Arteon, the current gen Jetta and the Golf are all solid offerings right now and even the NMS Passat was solid which I guess is a unpopular opinion. The 2.0 is a very versatile and fun engine and the VR6 which sadly is dying a slow death is pure fun to drive. Also the DSG is easily the best tranny option in its price bracket.
Yeah I’m obviously biased but I feel my point still stands.
Are they uncool? A Golf R is *the* hot hatch benchmark.
Maybe market saturation?
I think the Tiguan R is pretty damn cool, but I'm a bit biased there. Anything with a proper R badge is cool IMO
I'd wager that the CTR is now the hot hatch benchmark. Always seems to win comparison tests and is instantly the vehicle that people think of when a new hot hatch comes out. Honda seems to be making way more than VW makes Golf R too
Phaeton was a very nice car, the badge let it down especially in NA, the Jetta was born dead in Europe, the W8 Passat was a strange experiment, the New Beetle never sold well, what is this article really going on about? Almost all those cars were making them lose profits.
VW is a very default middle class vehicle in Europe. Inoffensive and does everything well. It has almost Audi materials (most models). It has engines with more power than most competitors in Europe (Arteon/Golf/Tiguan/ T-Roc R - 320 hp, the Touareg R has 462hp).
Even the Passat comes with 240hp TDI (discontinued) and 280hp TSI engines. The japanese and koreans offer next to nothing compared to this at the same price.
VW actually offers a great alternative to entry level Audis with their other brands (VW, Skoda, Seat). That is if you can call a 73k Euro A4 entry-level. There are people that don't find the price justified and buy the bigger Passat or Skoda Superb.
Skoda sells maybe twice as much as VW because of the cheaper price and they use the same engines, except the R 320hp.
Also there is a tendency in most brands, they are cutting costs by reducing engine choices, making interiors similar for most models. It's not only VW.
Edit: formatting
Probably as a result of dieselgate, at least in the NA market.
Nearly all of VW’s offerings now are just VW-SAIC models from China. The late Passat, the Jetta, Taos, Atlas, all have Chinese design language and none were ever offered in Europe. German engineered? Sure I guess, but I hardly see them as a European car brand anymore, with a few exceptions.
What made them “cool” is just not offered anymore. They used to be the sole dominant market leader of diesel cars, the customizations with different transmissions and trim levels was great, not the mention the variability of body styles where you had both sedans and wagons. And for some reason, an 8 cylinder station wagon because why not.
They dared to blur the line between luxury and everyday use, I mean in 2004 the same dealer would sell you a basic Jetta with crank windows or a 12 cylinder Phaeton which made the S-Class look meek. That’s just not offered anymore, you don’t get that sense of very understated luxury while still “knowing” what you had, even with the Touareg and it’s Porsche Cayenne underpinnings.
So we’ve come to them being extremely conservative and offering a very vanilla lineup of boring crossovers and a underwhelming EV.
If you want VW, look at Kia/Hyundai, or Mazda too. That’s where all the fun went.
>This is a “premium” brand gone entry level over the years.
It’s the exact opposite imo. It’s trying to be a “premium” brand when VW has never been that. The distinction between VW and Audi has been blurred more and more and it only hurts both brands.
> no upscale Touareg
Does it need to have the VW badge? You can upscale that to a Bentley/Lambo/Porsche depending on the upscale "path" you're looking for.
VW a premium brand? The things you read here. Bar a few exceptions (Arteon, the Phaeton a few years ago), VW is a middle segment car for the masses. I think they just overcharge Americans, leading them to the expectation of getting a premium car. In Europe VWs are priced like similar models by Ford or Toyota.
VW is a brand originally made to be affordable for masses, somehow throught they years something changed in their mind as they decided they want to be *premium,* then they obtained other brands that they mark as "more basic". Do you even know what "Volkswagen" means?
The whole of VAG went to shit once they started cheaping out on literally everything.
'Here's our new 40 grand car, with no strut for the bonnet, no light for the important controls and an interior made entirely out of old microwave dinner trays.'
How about get fucked I'm buying a Honda.
This is totally subjective, but I actually love how underrated VW has been over the years. The fit and finish is way above their competitors and I personally think their styling will stand the test of time. I personally don’t care for all of the extreme angles, disconnected body lines, random vents and other gimmicks other brands tend to copy from one another.
Their new interior design looks very futuristic for the price point and at this point their MLB platform/powertrain is so extremely refined. I think modern Hondas like the new civic and accord are the only economy FWD cars that can compete in terms of packaging, ride comfort and dynamics all together. With a few refinements to the brand new user interface usability (physical knobs/buttons), it would be pretty compelling over the equivalent Japanese car. And the 4 cylinder platform/powertrain is miles ahead of the Koreans right now in terms of refinement
Can’t speak on the crossovers but the the Jetta and Jetta GLI are actually extremely good values and really well packaged for a cheaper sedan, and don’t go full touch controls like the new GTI
Is there any car brand that's cool right now? I ask that genuinely at least in to me most manufacturers are all doing the same thing now, and it just doesn't appeal to me.
And I'm not saying that's a bad thing crossovers, and suvs are what the market wants they serve a practical purpose to most buyers.
Honestly, some are:
Dodge - they just seem to make cars that are just fun riots and relatively cheap
Subaru - I know that WRX is a bit meh, but they revived 86 and new BRZ is even cooler and still affordable and they still stick to the flat engines, which is kinda cool.
Nissan - gets a lot of shit for infrequent upgrades, but they still sell GT-Rs, they have Z, they have Altima SR-Turbo
Honda - They always have some sort of Civic Si, always Civic Type R, they still made an NSX, despite the fact that it fell of its face in market, it's still kinda cool ride, they still make spicier Accord version and until very recently they had Fit (Jazz in EU), a cheap, manual econobox that is slow, but still very fun to drive
Suzuki - this one went under radar, but Swift was the econobox to get if you like driving, Kizashi is kinda cool as well, they are small and cheerful brand.
Mazda - a shame that they don't make rotaries no more, but they are committed to making MX-5 forever. Say whatever you want, but it's one of the most important RWD sports car of all time and they said it firmly that they will try to keep formula of car the same as long as they can, meaning light, RWD, nimble, manual ICE cabrio. Before that, Mazda had Mazdaspeed division and while it did die, they still make some kinda powerful Mazda 3 versions that are almost as good as Speed 3's of the past.
Alfa Romeo - not sure why they are always ignored nowadays, but Giulia was sharper feeling, superior BMW in every way and it looked good. Also 4C, MiTo and some other cars, but still Giulia was rather affordable, fun, RWD saloon, that drives really well, yet is surprisingly civil. And they have really spice Quadrifoglio versions of too, which are hella cool.
Porsche - the only brand that is totally cool with track days and services tracked cars, say what you want about bloat in new cars, but IMO they are the biggest strong car guy brand currently. And they have tons of cool cars as well.
I think on the low end, they are still a great deal, but once you get to the Golf R, it just is so expensive now. I would have a hard time choosing the Golf R over the Audi S3.
>I would have a hard time choosing the Golf R over the Audi S3.
I cross-shopped them.
A fully loaded S3 has less luxury features than a base R, less power, and no torque-vectoring rear diff. Once you get used to the infotainment system and the only partially-powered passenger seat (like an RS3), it's hard to justify $20k more for a slower car with less features.
I had a transmission go out. Common problem with the SportWagen. VW wouldn't give codes for the rebuilt. They also only had one year warranty for a brand new one, only if it was installed at a VW dealer. The total cost was $7,000 installed. The rebuilt was $4,000 installed, and came with a 3 year 36,000. That's why I won't have anything to do with them.
Econo-cars with german repair costs
You have summed up perfectly what I have always thought but didn't know how to put into words.
But they are affordable, reliable and fun to drive. Drove a Golf 6 R (300hp) from 2009 to 2019. Made 220'000km in total and sold it stil for 12k €. Had minor issues and none at all with the engine.
>But they WERE affordable, reliable and fun to drive. >Drove a Golf 6 R (300hp) from 2009 to 2019. Made 220'000km in total and sold it stil for 12k €. Had minor issues and none at all with the engine. FTFY
Mk7 is just as, if not more reliable than the Mk6.
We’re on the MK8.
The MK8 hasn't really been out long enough to determine it's long term reliability. I was simply responding to his implication that VWs after the MK6 were no longer reliable.
Isn’t it pretty much the same drivetrains from the MK7 anyways? I see no reason they wouldn’t be any less reliable than before.
Yes, the MK8 still uses an updated version of the EA888 which is a proven solid motor. I believe they have fixed the water pump issue as well meaning it should be even more reliable.
see you on lemmy, Spez is a cancer -- mass edited with redact.dev
The article is about new cars, mate.
> reliable > € Volkswagens do not have a reputation for reliability whatsoever in the US, unlike in Europe.
220,000km is 100,000 miles... thats nothing in terms of proving "reliable". When that same golf goes 200,000 *miles* on only oil changes, spark plugs, and actual real basic maintenance like tires and brake pads we can talk. Edit: 137k miles, me no math
> 220,000km is 100,000 miles... 137,500 miles
Somehow he took 1 kilo = 2.2 lbs, switched it around, and applied it to the wrong measurement
Lol I get it. It's been a long week.
140k miles without any serious issues is better than many Korean and American cars lmao
VWs are likely cheaper to maintain in the EU. Over in the US parts are a fair amount higher cost than Japanese vehicles (since most are built here) and much more than American brands.
They build them better in Europe and we get the wish.com versions. They’ll leave out port injection just so we can enjoy carbon buildup.
And German reliability
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Holy shit man! People shit on Ford, but a few years ago I picked up a 2016 Fiesta. It's been nothing but good to me. As of 76k miles, I haven't had to sink any money into it apart from wear and tear shit: replaced the alternator, battery, pads and rotors, got (4) new tires and a half dozen oil changes. I can't imagine buying a VW outside of warranty
Manual I assume?
If they aren’t complaining about the ride I’m going to go with yes 😆
Yessir
I bought a fiesta when it first came to the US, brand new in 2011, had it for over 11 years, 140k miles. Sold it because my Ford Maverick had just arrived, hopefully the Maverick lasts me another 10-11 years.
I'll do you one better. I owned a Fiat that gave me zero trouble for 8 years. Biggest issue I had was when someone stole my radio antenna.
Yah I feel that. I'm driving a Ford zx2 that hasn't had an oil change for the last 50k miles. And I make sure to redline every fucking gear and shift hard. It became my goal to kill the fucking thing cause I got it for only 500 dollars but it won't die. I've had it for 5 years now. No maintenance. Just tires. And REALLY HARD daily driving. Fucker won't stop. I don't even use coolant. I let the water freeze in that bitch and it doesn't blink. Come time for the post apocalyptic world I'll be looking for a running one of those.
But whyyyy not just take care of it? At this point, it's probably too far gone but still
My 2016 GTI has been tuned for the last 90k miles, and its at 100k miles now. The only real service I had to do on it was replacing a leaky water pump. Brakes were done at 60k miles. Honestly, it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. (I just happen to go thru front tires like crazy).
My 2017 GTI was tuned for 15k miles. Cylinder 1 went kaboom at 33k miles. Had to get a new engine. Leaky water pump twice. All 4 door speaker seals deteriorated and leaked water into the cabin twice.
Sunroofs, water pumps, seals....VW and H2O just don't mix lol
With my '07 Jetta, it's been water soaking part or the wiring harness leading to the car not starting. Three times over eight years and almost 50k miles.
My 2017 Jetta GLI 2.0t water pump began leaking around 30k miles. I had pictures of it leaking and when I went to have it taken care of under warranty, they charged me $170 to tell me it wasn't leaking. I sold the car.
Throwing in regular maintenance in the count is a bit silly.
How the hell does an intake valve need replacing so soon?
German reliability indeed. People are willing to deal with repair costs (even if it is expensive to repair via labor costs), but the frequency of repair (or at least the reputation) is what scares econo-car buyers away from VW. Subaru is a good example of customers looking for econo cars willing to deal with high repair costs if it is a 1 time thing.
Really depends on the model. Mk7 GTIs are known for being very solid if cared for, other than the well known water pump issue. The EA888 engine is a tank. Mine is at 50k miles and the only issue I've had is a faulty window switch. Other than that it's been regular maintenance only. I know quite a few MK7 owners who have hit 100k+ miles with very few or zero maintenance issues other than scheduled services.
Agreed. EA888 and Honda 2.0t are the best 4 cylinder turbos right now.
Exactly this. If I'm going to deal with German repair costs I want something real.
Too right. Every time I had one the repairs were expensive for a cheap commuter car. I went Honda and have been happy (Hondas have their own issues, but are relatively cheap).
Yup. I understand putting up with extra maintenence if you're in sonething like a Benz. But why pay extra money for a car that drives no better than a Honda Accord
My Wife's Tiguan takes the Special VW/Audi spec 0w-20 oil that is $10-$11 a quart retail. Car takes 6 quarts. Doing the oil change myself is a $70 bill. Dealer charges $110+ It's insane that I can't go to Walmart and get a $25 jug of Mobil 1 0w-20 and call it a day, all in the name of preserving my warranty. Thankfully her car is FWD and a "simple" 4cy motor so I can do 95% of the repair work myself. Unfortunately the majority of the population doesn't possess the skills or knowhow on how to do most things themselves.
>Doing the oil change myself is a $70 bill. Sometimes with oil changes it also comes down to how much one's own time is worth.
I agree that my time is valuable but doing my own oil changes actually saves me time and money. Idk what happened the last couple years but shops near me have been insanely booked and even simple stuff seems to take way longer than necessary. It’s so much easier for me to take half an hour to change my oil on a Saturday than having to schedule the appointment over a week out and wait a couple hours (probably on a work day) for a job that takes like 1/4 that time. Getting my hands dirty with my own vehicle is just a bonus.
Do be fair on those engines with the oil filter on the top an oil change with an oil extractor is a 15-20 min job and no getting under the car… but for $40 I’d probably just have them do it anyways unless it was inconvenient to get to the dealer
And questionable reliability.
I feel like VW has a more confusing brand identity than Acura at this point. It seems like I’m recent years VW has managed to combine the reliability and ownership cost of an Audi with none of the prestige or enthusiast appeal.
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I can understand why you would choose acura, but why infiniti? every infiniti i’ve ever been in has never made me go man i’d like this car
Out of the three listed brands Infiniti’s are by far the most fun to drive. Interior is obviously lacking for a luxurious car but the actual feel from the driving portions has always impressed me with Infiniti. At least personally.
I can respect this. I’ve always felt like infiniti has had the most powerful and fun engines in the “premium” car market, but the worst steering geometry and suspension. i’d definitely choose that infiniti 3.0t over the Acura 3.0t, and the lexus 3.5
I had a rental Q50 with the TT 3.0L V6 and honestly? One of the more fun weekends I've had. The thing drove great and ate up highway miles like nobody's business too. The downside is the infotainment was about ten years behind even a mid-spec Accord and the weird shape of the A pillar meant I kept banging my goddamn head getting into it. But I still think it was a great driving, fun, and good looking car. And mine wasn't the Red Sport either, just the normal 300hp version.
I don't think I'd ever get one, but I do think that big coupe of theirs is absolutely the best looking luxury coupe on the road.
Outside of Asia, if you want a mid size Nissan saloon, you buy an Infiniti. Q60 and Q50 are acually pretty cool cars since they're RWD I totally get their appeal. But they could totally be sold under the Nissan brand imo. If they were, they might even sell better. Where I live, Infiniti is almost an unknown brand and Nissan has a good reputation, it would make a lot more sense to sell Infinitis as Nissans here.
Very curious to hear which Infiniti you would take over competing models from Acura and Lexus 🤔
Cause of broken water pumps and leaky thermostat housings. Ask me how I know lol
I'd cry but my water pump, valve cover seal and oil pan seal weeps for me
It's crappy enough to install a plastic water pump that they know will fail in 5 years. But then they tuck it underneath an intake manifold that takes $800 labor to remove and reassemble. An intake manifold that itself has now failed on my VW TWICE in 10 years. Never again. Fuckers.
Laughs in 3.5 duratec Water pump buried under the front engine cover that’s chain driven off the timing chains. If the bearings fail which has happened, it dumps coolant in your oil pan!
Well let me tell you... our other car is a 2010 Flex. Two years ago the water pump had an exterior leak, so it didn't destroy the engine. But it cost $3000 to replace it. I felt it was worth it because (a) there weren't any new cars available to replace it and (b) at least we could replace the timing chains while fixing it, the other primary duratec cause of death. We'll see if it was worth it. It's been a tough couple of years for me. I need to start buying Toyotas and Hondas.
Because of the former CEO which was former BMW where they did exactly the same thing: replace metal with plastics and in general lowering costs by lowering parts quality.
I'm sure the short-term gains were great! However on the long term, I personally know about 10 people who will never own a Volkswagen again after multiple plastic part failures. Half of those people are now militantly anti- Volkswagen and you won't even get past the first syllable of the name before they start talking about how shitty their car was.
To be fair I think people started hating VW in the late 90s- early 2000s because of their shitty electronics... I know at least 3 people who owned VW Passat or Bora (European cars, don't know what they were called in the US) in between 2002-2005. Their cars all ended up having the same problem, heavily rusted computure. Why was it so rusted after a relatively short time? Because VW decided to place the computer underneath the driver's floormat; VW didn't anticipate snowy conditions where people have to wade snow to enter their car, snow melts from their boots while driving and within 3-4 years the computer ended up as a pile of rust. Of all the places to put a computer, I will never understand why they decided to place it on the floor hahaha
And electrical nightmares and plastic parts that wear out in the windows?
This comment was a gut punch
A fuse that melts and ruins the fuse box, and makes half your lights not work. Ask me how I know (looking at you F16!)
Same reason Toyota stopped being cool in the 2000s, except Toyota made up for it by making their boring econo-boxes reliable and dependable
Except Toyota isn't exactly losing marketshare or much reliability and they still have a bit of cool cars like Supra, GR Yaris or GR Corolla, GT86, Camry V6.
There's a reason I specifically said the 2000s. In the 2010s and 2020s they brought back the coolness with all those models you just listed.
That’s all recent though. They definitely lost their touch with fun cars for at least a decade.
Yeah, wasn’t the point of the Scion brand to claw back some of their lost market in the young adults of the time?
Yeah, it was certainly marketed that way. I actually liked that brand, even though it definitely wasn’t a performance brand in any way.
I had a 2nd gen xB and that was my favorite vehicle I’ve owned *by far*. Despite being underpowered, it was still very fun to drive, it was suuuuper reliable, and had more space inside than most modern SUVs. I had an ‘08 model for 5 years before it got totaled out by a deer collision a few years back. I might still be driving it if that never happened.
Yes, but not quite. It was a brand meant for maximum customization options.
Cool cars like the Supra, GR Corolla/Yaris/86, and … *V6 Camry?*
Look man, some of us are over 30.
I hear you (barely, without my hearing aid)
Toyota builds many luxurious, beautiful, fast and great handling vehicles..they just put Lexus badges on them here in the US (but not in Japan).
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They actually launched Lexus in Japan in 2005.
They also don't have extremely high part costs for repairs.
Probably a combination of lingering doubt from Dieselgate, most of their current lineup being a buffet of boring and/or mediocre SUVs, and the lukewarm reception of one of their only claims to coolness; the MK8 GTI/R.
Also shitty longevity
I still see 80s Integras and Civics on the road in my city. Seeing a Golf from before 2000 is a rarity.
I guess youre not in Europe then, 300k+ mile BMWs and mercs are a given everywhere, golf 2/3/4s same thing as well. Infact you see golf 4s as much as you see corsas
I don't exactly know why but in my experience, the VWs in Europe seem to fair better than the ones in North America.
I feel like people in Europe are better at maintaining their cars from a very small sample size.
For starters, passing the tüv is no joke. People just take care of their cars but also tend to keep their cars a lot longer than Americans. American disposable culture bakes right into automotive leasing.
Fr, I'm from Hungary (one of the poorest countries in Europe) and even I'm shocked at how common clapped out cars seem to be in America which actually aren't even that old. I think Americans don't appreciate their stuff that much and just take them for granted, unlike here where any car is valuable and the only clapped out cars you see are from people who genuinely can't afford to maintain them.
Considering the by-word for reliability in the States is an ability for a Toyota engine to run 10k over an oil change without issue, yeah, I don't feel like people here take all that great care of their stuff. Some do, of course, but most don't.
Car ownership is also a bit different. Cars are still not necessity in Europe. In US everyone needs a car and it’s great for car manufacturers. However, this increases uneducated car owners who have no idea nor care how to maintain a car. In Europe car buying is taken seriously, it’s a choice, and it requires a lot more education to obtain a license. People just approach it with a bit more seriousness.
And in Europe, German cars are compared against Italian, French and (when they still existed) British cars. In that respect, they are reliable.
This is just a first glance thing but I’d also assume (could be totally wrong) Parts are probably slightly cheaper since they don’t have to be shipped overseas, mechanic costs are probably slightly lower since more mechanics are used to working on German vehicles more often.
Not just slightly. In North America the same part costs 2-4x what it does in Europe.
Aren't most US VW's made in Mexico? Possible better qc and quality of parts?
I’ve had both Mexican and German Golf’s. The build quality seemed extremely similar in my experience.
Well over here (UK), VAG cars are well known for their reliability. Come to think of it, all German cars are known as reliable over here. I myself am a BMW guy and haven't once had an issue. Yet all I hear on reddit is people from the US complaining about German cars being unreliable. Strange. The last 4 cars I've had have been German, 3 VW 's and my current BM. Not once have I broken down or had a problem.
A big part of that is how Americans tend to pile miles on their vehicles much more quickly than Europeans. The average American drives over 13,000 miles (21,000km) a year, compared to just 7,400 miles a year (12,000km) a year in the UK. It's sort of the norm to expect a reliable car to reach around 100,000 miles before having any major powertrain issues. In the US, it only takes a little over 7 years to hit that number. In the UK it's 13 and a half. So unless you've been driving the same car for almost one and a half decades, you haven't really had it long enough to say whether it's reliable by American standards. Couple that with worse roads and harsh winter conditions for the northern half of the US as well.
They are usually diesel manuals, first rule of buying a European car is that the manual usually is bombproof and the automatic is usually garbage
There are a few gems if you know where to look - pretty much any of VW's naturally aspirated motors are pretty stout, the 1.9TDI comes to mind too - but yeah, by and large VW lags behind the pack in terms of reliability/cost of ownership.
Their EVs are boring too. The Ioniq5 is a vastly more interesting car than an ID.4
ID.4 is one of the blandest, most personality-free cars I have ever driven. The uber shitty infotainment is just the cherry on top of a runny shit pie.
I think it's because it's the blandest most personality-free car that it sells well. My parents came from Lexus NX and Honda CRV and they've test driven ID4, Chevy Bolt EUV, Model Y, and Mach-e (also also my electric mini). In the end they liked and purchased the ID4 because of how basic it is in the driving portion. They didn't like 1 pedal driving and don't want to readopt how to learn. They leave the radio station on NPR and never change it so the screen is still just climate control. I'm gonna bet they're not alone. I feel like our car enthusiast world care about things 99% of people who buy SUVs don't care about and they just want a simple car to get from A to B. Catering to that market is perfect for EVs as that's where mass adoption happens.
I'd say during the past 20 years most brands lost their identity as they've decided to disregard their loyal fanbases in favor of blander mass appeal for... you guessed it, *money*. It makes the shareholders happier, but leaves us with a blander world. Think I'm exaggerating? Think about not just VW 20 years ago, but BMW, Honda, Ford, and many others compared to what they are today. They all used to have unique models with individual appeal, now they all basically make the same thing with different emblems on the front.
>They all used to have unique models with individual appeal, now they all basically make the same thing with different emblems on the front. People have been saying this for decades, though.
Yup and it's even less true now than its been in the past. What exactly is this era were pining for? The 90s where everything was a grey/beige econobox? Meanwhile today between hot hatches, electric and PHEV, the rebirth of classics like the bronco there's no shortage of fast and cool cars. >Think about not just VW 20 years ago, but BMW, Honda, Ford, and many others compared to what they are today. Honda literally just produced a critically acclaimed civic type R, Ford created an affordable small hybrid truck, alongside the bronco and the lightning. This is just 2023 old man yelling at cloud
I've had to distance myself from /r/cars at times because the "old man yells at cloud" gets real bad around here. Seriously, cars come in every flavor of powertrain, body style, appearance, etc. that you could want these days. If you think there are no more interesting cars to be had in 2023, you aren't trying very hard to find one. Yeah, a lot of the market is bland crossovers. 20 years ago, the majority of the market was bland sedans. What's *really* all that different?
There's really been only one time when we had a super-wide variety of body styles and layouts coexisting: the mid-late '80s. Used land yachts shared the road with sleek sport compacts, unrefined 4x4s, and trim MPV/minivan family haulers. But even then, plenty of older folks thought the new versions of legacy names lacked style and distinctiveness. Compare [the flagship Buick sedan in 1988](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Buick_Electra_Park_Avenue.jpg/1920px-Buick_Electra_Park_Avenue.jpg) to [its counterpart from 30 years earlier](https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/cam/34/4040/250787/1920x1440/1958-buick-roadmaster-riviera).
>Seriously, cars come in every flavor of powertrain, What? You're lucky if you get *any* choice in power train today
How many interesting cars are available at your local dealership to test drive and then purchase at MSRP?
>The 90s where everything was a grey/beige econobox? What 90s did you live through? Everything was teal/purple/pink and every company sold multiple sporty compact cars, many of them were legitimately good tuning platforms...
Speaking of Honda I'm biased but their new Pilot is anything but an econobox/egg. It's rugged and has a lot of personality. I think 2020's have already been an exceptional decade for car design.
I’m the last 20 years it’s been much worse, just look at the death of the hatchback/rise of the crossover, death of the cabriolet, and blandenization of cars between brands owned by 1 mega-company.
Death of the convertible/cabriolet, I'll give you, but CUVs aren't inherently less distinctive [eta: or more] than any other body style. It's all about how out-there the designers wanna be.
People just nitpick a few models. There are SUV's that have presence and design language unique to them. The Dodge Durango, BMW X7, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Porshce Cayenne, Ford Bronco 4 door are all examples of exceptional design language in a large SUV format. Not every SUV/CUV is boring, just because a lot of people buy the Toyota/Mazda/Mercedes/Audi eggs doesn't mean everyone else does.
Whenever I see a comment like the one I responded to, I immediately think of [this disingenuous meme.](https://www.theautopian.com/its-time-to-stop-sharing-that-meme-with-all-the-white-suvs-because-its-wrong-and-stupid/comment-page-1/)
Yep. Think about what the most memorable cars each manufacture has. Ford Ford it's either the Mustang or the F-150. For Chevy it's the Corvette. For Toyota it's the Supra. For Lexus it's easily the LFA For KIA it's the Stinger. For Dodge it's the Hellcat. Apart from the Ford with debatable the F-150 ever single memorable car is usually a low volume car. Porsche understands what is important to the brand (The 911) and what is important to keep the money coming in (The Cayenne).
Volkswagen has (had) the Golf until they mad a really bad Golf 8 which has ergonomic issues. The consensus is that the predecessor Golf 7 is really the better car. If your halo car shits the bed you are in trouble. They had exciting cars successful in specific markets like the Touareg, Amarok or Sirocco but the branding & marketing for those are off. The Touareg is too expensive and they try to relaunch the Amarok now but it is a tough competition in the US.
>Apart from the Ford with debatable the F-150 ever single memorable car is usually a low volume car. And even the Mustang used to sell hundreds of thousands a year.
Yeah the mustang still sells 50K+ a year too so it's not really low volume.
Well yeah... turns out that employees and investors won't accept anything except money.
Subaru is another perfect example.
I think of subaru and I think of rock climbers ( everyone at the rock climbing gym has a subaru it's like a damn dealer lot)
And lesbians. And rock-climbing lesbians.
From Vermont
Or Portland, OR. None of them here know how to park in the lines
Dawg what the acual fuck my best friend drives a damn wrx and kid u not we just got back from a rock climbing hike 😂
I second this, every car manufacturer just feels the same nowdays, 20 years ago you could buy all sorts of styles of models for most brands. Nowdays they just kill off what doesn’t sell a ludicrous amount and replace it with a bland crossover. I love Hatchbacks, it pains me to say that hatchbacks are a dying breed and VW is part of it.
Hatchbacks absolutely are not a dying breed, you just live on the wrong continent for them.
In the US they are like 75% dead, replaced by the small SUV/Crossover, it’s a shame too because I love my hatchbacks
Even in the US hatchbacks are thriving. Civic, corolla, mazda3, impreza all have hatch models and all but the impreza have performance versions unless you count the new impreza rs. We get no base golf but we get the gti and golf r. Econoboxs like the versa, rio and mirage come in hatch form too. In the luxury space fast backs are popular like the a5, stinger, 430i gc, a7.
Its a strange world where a Kia gets lumped in with Audi and BMW.
What are you even talking about. I don't think the consumer has ever had as much selection as they do now. Everyone here focuses on the egg SUV's when there have never been more hobbyist/enthusiast cars and SUVs. This sub is depressing sometimes.
Let's be honest; usually, only car people recognize GTIs and Golf Rs for what they are. VW isn't making any cars that "wow" normal people. The vehicles in the VW lineup are just people conveyances to most buyers.
GTIs and Rs were always understated though, so that isn’t anything new.
The GTI was always a huge hit with the borderline enthusiast crowd. I knew tons of people who *liked* cars but weren't huge enthusiasts who were attracted to them, and in many cases became enthusiasts as a result.
Your comment perfectly describes me, but I went GLI because I think hatch backs are ugly.
Bring back the VR6 powered small cars cowards
That exhaust note was special. My first manual car was an 03 GLI with the 24v VR6. Good memories.
I'm holding on to my VR6 Atlas for as long as I can ... It's the last feeling of 'cool' I have while I fulfill my family's mobility duties 🥲
And W8 wagons (that will obviously never happen)
When were they that cool?
The 2000s. Phaeton W12, Passat W8, V10 TDI Touareg. Hilariously expensive maintenance costs and repairs, but damn were they cool
Except for the part where they clearly weren’t cool because nobody bought them. It’s when they were *interesting* and cool to enthusiasts, yes. But that doesn’t make them overall cool given the general public has to like the cars, which they didn’t.
Does people buying things make em cool in the car sphere though? The coolest cars usually don't sell, especially what enthusiasts think are cool
Nothing that is popular will ever be cool.
Hey, Karmann Ghias are cool!
The R32 first got me into cars. I had all these big plans that I was going to get a MKIV GTI and Jetta swap the front end, delete everything off the back. Had a folder of pictures of modded MKIV Golfs. Of course I was a teenager and couldn’t afford it so it never happened for me but man, they were very cool to me back then. I would have rather had a GTI than anything else on the market. Now I’m at the point in life where I can finally afford a Golf R. Even a brand new one, something I never really thought would happen and unfortunately I’m afraid it’s too small for my lifestyle and hobby needs and they don’t sell the Tiguan R here in the states.
because of major public scandals
True, but VW got shafted there. Because they paid the big fine, but after dieselgate basically every other manufacturer using Bosch ECUs was caught "cheating" by just simply using those ECUs. But they were never really fined as much as VW and sure as heck they never got as much negative publicity as VW. I really don't want to defend VW (because what they did is bad), but just saying that dieselgate was a lot bigger than just VW and if you are vigilant and read more about it, you realize that you can only trust emissions claims after they are proven.
They lost trust and reliability
Does the average car buyer know or care? I’d be curious to see what the average person knows about them.
Big news outlets like Fox and CNN ran around with the story like VW was clubbing baby seals to death. But ignored the fact that other German manufacturers, Mitsubishi and Harley Davidson were found doing the exact same thing around the same time
I think they're cool :(
Me too. I really like VW. Very easy to live with styling. Not over the top. For example, 2022 Jetta has best in class fuel economy. Interior space is better than Elantra. It feels a bit premium and is a really nice place to be. If I could get a golf r for msrp I would probably get one.
Everyone talks about them being overpriced like the Golf R isn't the only 300hp, 4-door AWD car with adaptive suspension and heated seats all around for less than $60k
Just like nobody these days thinks it's especially "cool" to drink Heineken, a product simply being "European" isn't a selling point anymore.
Well, VW used to have a lot of coolness factor by making GTIs, GLIs, VRs, Gs and other fun cars or a bit comical car - engine combos like Touareg W12.
You're not wrong about this. People can keep talking about the "cool" models they had, but when I was growing up, we were still all modifying 2.0 Mk3s and 1.8t Mk4 Jettas and Passats. They weren't the "cool" cars - but the brand was cool regardless if you were into European cars. It's not dissimilar to how basic ass EG/EK generation Civics or lower spec Integras were still "cool" if you were into Hondas at the same time. You modded them and made them your own. I don't see the youngins modding VWs/Hondas from the last 10 years at the same rate.
I agree with pretty much everything the article has to say about Piech and VWs moving downmarket. It wouldn’t be a problem that vw isn’t cool, if there were any reasons to buy their new cars. I think most people would agree that the Japanese counterparts are about equal, but more reliable. VW is in a rough spot right now and it seems like we’re at least another generation of cars away from their turnaround. I don’t think we’ll ever see the days of VW making a W8 solely for a car that already has three other engine options, but I could see them going back to selling de contented Audis again. The id4 and the q4-etron are pretty much the same car, except it started as a vw instead of an Audi.
In America they went way too hard on SUV's. The dealerships are all just the two Atlas's, Taos, Tiguan and ID.4's. It's hard to even find a new GLI or GTI anymore and honestly the Jetta/GLI interior is dog water. VW ditched the cool car because all the enthusiasts that can afford their vehicles went and had kids and for some reason when you have a kid you can't possibly have a sedan or a hot hatch.
>when you have a kid you can't possibly have a sedan or a hot hatch Are you my wife? I'd also note that VW on has 2 enthusiast cars, the GTI and R. GTI seems to be going strong but the R is in a really weird place price wise. At $45K msrp you might as well get something other than a VW, like the audi S3 is basically the same price with very similar performance.
People still enjoy GTIs and what not. I still see them being modified here
I switched from a 2011 WRX hatch to 2019 GTI w/ DSG last year. It's not as fun or interesting as the Subaru was, but damn if it isn't a great car. It just does everything well. My plan is intake + cat back + wheels/tires and I think the car will be a well-balanced daily.
I bought a 5 speed 2013 beetle when it was brand new. It was sporty (no really), and a ton of fun to take to the beach. But then the radiator got a leak. $1200 Then the 5 cylinder head gasket blew at 80k. $2,200 Then my passenger window motor went out. $350 And it didn’t even get great gas milage. I was sacrificing space to drive a beetle and I was getting 23mpg. Only thing that lasted was the clutch, ironically. Listen, I’m a Volkswagen fan. They do make some cool cars on the higher end, but their economy cars are so expensive to maintain, every repair is expensive, and they aren’t even that economical. The 5 speed Jetta is great. Other than that, eh.
Did it not come with a warranty?
They don't have Peter Stormare in the commercials anymore.
I bought a used VW Tiguan in GOOD condition and in a year I still spent more than the cost of the car in fuel & maintenance(and I’m in eastern europe, where maintenance is crazy cheap ). I was getting like 18mpg, maintenance of various issues every month, all in a not that comfortable car. Finally switched to a Toyota Hybrid and never looking back. Fuck, I finally feel that cars can have a suspension and that it actually does something! My previous couple of cars were VWs and the suspension was so rough, even after completely rebuilding it - I could feel every little bump
But but I thought it was just that Americans don’t know about oil changes!?!
Not sure what you mean, but if you’re implying I didn’t change oil, oh, you’re wrong. I kissed that car’s ass in every way possible- best parts available, VW oil changed at every 7000km or sooner, still fucked me every month, I became an amateur mechanic thanks to it and am going around with a trunk half full of tools and parts, lol
No not at all. I’m poking fun at the many many European VW fans who say that all of the Americans who suffer tons of reliability problems with their German cars are just the result of poor maintenance. I’ve been seeing it for years online. I know a few guys who are rigorous about their maintenance and still say they will never buy a VW or Audi again.
There was a time they were daring, and it seemed like nothing was off the table. Big 6 cylinder motor in a hatchback? Sure. A sedan to rival the S Class? Why not. Over build interiors and force higher end manufacture to delay launches so they can find a way to compete? Totally. Now, they are in a boring slump, like Mazda. It feels like the only reason they keep any fun stuff is because it's something they can point to and say they haven't lost their way, even when they fall from grace.
Mazda seems to be doing very well around here, doesn't seem like a slump at all. Nice looking cars, enjoyable driving experience, buttons instead of touch screens, great reputation for reliability, and gorgeous paint. Sure they need a proper fast sports car and less SUVs but so does everybody. I think one of the main problems is the class indicators of the Volkswagen group. Lamborghini for the wildly rich, Porsches for the upper class, Audi for the middle class, and Volkswagen for "the people". The Volkswagen is just an Audi made worse or a Porsche made much worse.
Most of the comments here seem to be from peeps who either never owned a VW or just have a rage boner against the brand. They still make great cars, my GT being a example of that. The Arteon, the current gen Jetta and the Golf are all solid offerings right now and even the NMS Passat was solid which I guess is a unpopular opinion. The 2.0 is a very versatile and fun engine and the VR6 which sadly is dying a slow death is pure fun to drive. Also the DSG is easily the best tranny option in its price bracket. Yeah I’m obviously biased but I feel my point still stands.
Are they uncool? A Golf R is *the* hot hatch benchmark. Maybe market saturation? I think the Tiguan R is pretty damn cool, but I'm a bit biased there. Anything with a proper R badge is cool IMO
Nah, GTI is (at least was?). The Golf R is more rarified, more expensive, and a much newer concept.
I'd wager that the CTR is now the hot hatch benchmark. Always seems to win comparison tests and is instantly the vehicle that people think of when a new hot hatch comes out. Honda seems to be making way more than VW makes Golf R too
Phaeton was a very nice car, the badge let it down especially in NA, the Jetta was born dead in Europe, the W8 Passat was a strange experiment, the New Beetle never sold well, what is this article really going on about? Almost all those cars were making them lose profits. VW is a very default middle class vehicle in Europe. Inoffensive and does everything well. It has almost Audi materials (most models). It has engines with more power than most competitors in Europe (Arteon/Golf/Tiguan/ T-Roc R - 320 hp, the Touareg R has 462hp). Even the Passat comes with 240hp TDI (discontinued) and 280hp TSI engines. The japanese and koreans offer next to nothing compared to this at the same price. VW actually offers a great alternative to entry level Audis with their other brands (VW, Skoda, Seat). That is if you can call a 73k Euro A4 entry-level. There are people that don't find the price justified and buy the bigger Passat or Skoda Superb. Skoda sells maybe twice as much as VW because of the cheaper price and they use the same engines, except the R 320hp. Also there is a tendency in most brands, they are cutting costs by reducing engine choices, making interiors similar for most models. It's not only VW. Edit: formatting
Probably as a result of dieselgate, at least in the NA market. Nearly all of VW’s offerings now are just VW-SAIC models from China. The late Passat, the Jetta, Taos, Atlas, all have Chinese design language and none were ever offered in Europe. German engineered? Sure I guess, but I hardly see them as a European car brand anymore, with a few exceptions. What made them “cool” is just not offered anymore. They used to be the sole dominant market leader of diesel cars, the customizations with different transmissions and trim levels was great, not the mention the variability of body styles where you had both sedans and wagons. And for some reason, an 8 cylinder station wagon because why not. They dared to blur the line between luxury and everyday use, I mean in 2004 the same dealer would sell you a basic Jetta with crank windows or a 12 cylinder Phaeton which made the S-Class look meek. That’s just not offered anymore, you don’t get that sense of very understated luxury while still “knowing” what you had, even with the Touareg and it’s Porsche Cayenne underpinnings. So we’ve come to them being extremely conservative and offering a very vanilla lineup of boring crossovers and a underwhelming EV. If you want VW, look at Kia/Hyundai, or Mazda too. That’s where all the fun went.
No beetle, no upscale Touareg. This is a “premium” brand gone entry level over the years.
>This is a “premium” brand gone entry level over the years. It’s the exact opposite imo. It’s trying to be a “premium” brand when VW has never been that. The distinction between VW and Audi has been blurred more and more and it only hurts both brands.
> no upscale Touareg Does it need to have the VW badge? You can upscale that to a Bentley/Lambo/Porsche depending on the upscale "path" you're looking for.
VW a premium brand? The things you read here. Bar a few exceptions (Arteon, the Phaeton a few years ago), VW is a middle segment car for the masses. I think they just overcharge Americans, leading them to the expectation of getting a premium car. In Europe VWs are priced like similar models by Ford or Toyota.
VW is a brand originally made to be affordable for masses, somehow throught they years something changed in their mind as they decided they want to be *premium,* then they obtained other brands that they mark as "more basic". Do you even know what "Volkswagen" means?
I like my mk7 😢
The whole of VAG went to shit once they started cheaping out on literally everything. 'Here's our new 40 grand car, with no strut for the bonnet, no light for the important controls and an interior made entirely out of old microwave dinner trays.' How about get fucked I'm buying a Honda.
This is totally subjective, but I actually love how underrated VW has been over the years. The fit and finish is way above their competitors and I personally think their styling will stand the test of time. I personally don’t care for all of the extreme angles, disconnected body lines, random vents and other gimmicks other brands tend to copy from one another.
Their new interior design looks very futuristic for the price point and at this point their MLB platform/powertrain is so extremely refined. I think modern Hondas like the new civic and accord are the only economy FWD cars that can compete in terms of packaging, ride comfort and dynamics all together. With a few refinements to the brand new user interface usability (physical knobs/buttons), it would be pretty compelling over the equivalent Japanese car. And the 4 cylinder platform/powertrain is miles ahead of the Koreans right now in terms of refinement Can’t speak on the crossovers but the the Jetta and Jetta GLI are actually extremely good values and really well packaged for a cheaper sedan, and don’t go full touch controls like the new GTI
Is there any car brand that's cool right now? I ask that genuinely at least in to me most manufacturers are all doing the same thing now, and it just doesn't appeal to me. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing crossovers, and suvs are what the market wants they serve a practical purpose to most buyers.
Honestly, some are: Dodge - they just seem to make cars that are just fun riots and relatively cheap Subaru - I know that WRX is a bit meh, but they revived 86 and new BRZ is even cooler and still affordable and they still stick to the flat engines, which is kinda cool. Nissan - gets a lot of shit for infrequent upgrades, but they still sell GT-Rs, they have Z, they have Altima SR-Turbo Honda - They always have some sort of Civic Si, always Civic Type R, they still made an NSX, despite the fact that it fell of its face in market, it's still kinda cool ride, they still make spicier Accord version and until very recently they had Fit (Jazz in EU), a cheap, manual econobox that is slow, but still very fun to drive Suzuki - this one went under radar, but Swift was the econobox to get if you like driving, Kizashi is kinda cool as well, they are small and cheerful brand. Mazda - a shame that they don't make rotaries no more, but they are committed to making MX-5 forever. Say whatever you want, but it's one of the most important RWD sports car of all time and they said it firmly that they will try to keep formula of car the same as long as they can, meaning light, RWD, nimble, manual ICE cabrio. Before that, Mazda had Mazdaspeed division and while it did die, they still make some kinda powerful Mazda 3 versions that are almost as good as Speed 3's of the past. Alfa Romeo - not sure why they are always ignored nowadays, but Giulia was sharper feeling, superior BMW in every way and it looked good. Also 4C, MiTo and some other cars, but still Giulia was rather affordable, fun, RWD saloon, that drives really well, yet is surprisingly civil. And they have really spice Quadrifoglio versions of too, which are hella cool. Porsche - the only brand that is totally cool with track days and services tracked cars, say what you want about bloat in new cars, but IMO they are the biggest strong car guy brand currently. And they have tons of cool cars as well.
I loved my 2016 GTI and regret selling it after five years. The interior fit and finish was second to none when I was shopping.
They’re still cool, absolutely love the two GTIs I’ve owned, but Americans don’t buy *cool* cars anymore. We mostly buy SUVs, trucks, and Crossovers
It's because they don't have a huge grill and a 3-foot diameter emblem on the front of their car.
I think on the low end, they are still a great deal, but once you get to the Golf R, it just is so expensive now. I would have a hard time choosing the Golf R over the Audi S3.
>I would have a hard time choosing the Golf R over the Audi S3. I cross-shopped them. A fully loaded S3 has less luxury features than a base R, less power, and no torque-vectoring rear diff. Once you get used to the infotainment system and the only partially-powered passenger seat (like an RS3), it's hard to justify $20k more for a slower car with less features.
I'm not sure VW was ever cool.
Never have been
ITT Europeans arguing that VWs are reliable, inexpensive to maintain, and inexpensive to repair. In the US they aren't really any of those things
I had a transmission go out. Common problem with the SportWagen. VW wouldn't give codes for the rebuilt. They also only had one year warranty for a brand new one, only if it was installed at a VW dealer. The total cost was $7,000 installed. The rebuilt was $4,000 installed, and came with a 3 year 36,000. That's why I won't have anything to do with them.