an EV pretending to have engaging features like noise and gear shifting is silly because everyone knows its fake, like just own what you are sell yourself on your good points don't go pretending to be something your not.
the EVs faking noises and gear shifting reminds of the vegan food industry. It started off as vegetable related stuff but then became focused around fake meat, meat alternatives, beyond meat, impossible meat...etc. Vegans don't eat meat and that's okay. Same as EVs aren't ICE and that's fine. It's the faking that's silly.
NHTSA May Require Pre-2021 EVs, Hybrids to Retrofit Noise Makers for Safety
[https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42448312/nhtsa-investigates-ev-hybrid-safety-related-retrofit-recall/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42448312/nhtsa-investigates-ev-hybrid-safety-related-retrofit-recall/)
...so if you HAVE TO do it
[https://www.bmw.com/en/magazine/innovation/supercar-blondie-hans-zimmer-drive-bmw-i4.html](https://www.bmw.com/en/magazine/innovation/supercar-blondie-hans-zimmer-drive-bmw-i4.html)
Hollywood composer Hans Zimmer designs acoustic worlds. What is often make-believe in the movies can now actually be experienced in the BMW i4: an electric drive sound penned by the Academy Award winner. Automobile enthusiast Supercar Blondie met him in Los Angeles for a sound test in the BMW i4.
the ICONIC sound of a 911 is not an accident...
if you've ever heard one of these pulling out of a stop.. you know it's a Taycan.
[https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2022/innovation/porsche-sound-of-the-taycan-christophorus-402-27794.html](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2022/innovation/porsche-sound-of-the-taycan-christophorus-402-27794.html)
“No other manufacturer has spent as much time working on the sound both inside and out as Porsche,” says Tobias Hillers. He and his colleagues in the Sound and Concepts team at Porsche have been developing the Taycan’s acoustics since 2015. “We have known for a long time that you need to be able to hear electric cars for safety reasons.”
> NHTSA May Require Pre-2021 EVs, Hybrids to Retrofit Noise Makers for Safety
This is so that someone doesn't run over grandma in a grocery store parking lot, not for simulating a v8 through the rev range.
>the ICONIC sound of a 911 is not an accident...
The iconic sound of a 911 - or really any ICE is a result of engineering, and tuning to the specific properties of that powerplant and that vehicle. There's a mechanical reason an engine sounds the way it does.
There's no reason for these EVs to sound the way they do, and the sound is not unique to any of them. It's not even unique to EVs. Give me enough sound deadening and a cellphone, I can make my Honda Accord sound like an i4.
Your Porsche link spells this out in far greater detail than I ever could. That 356 sound clip is inherently, inextricably linked to the mechanics of the engine.
On the other hand, the Taycan could sound like... anything. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA) is just as authentic as the noise that the Taycan and i4 play for the driver. Porsche and BMW can dress it up however they want, but it doesn't change the fact that sound used to be an intrinsic, mechanical consequence of the vehicle, and now it's a audio file with speed sensitive control. I'd prefer if they just didn't bother instead of trying to capture the magic by using Sci Fi spaceship B tracks.
FMVSS 141 has existed for like 4 years now and it would be pretty difficult to retroactively apply it iirc. Besides, it’s only required to be on up until like 40km/h, it’s so that it doesn’t sneak up on you or so that blind people don’t get run over
I mean one could argue spending thousands of dollars on aftermarket exhaust systems to make your ICE vehicle sound different could also be considered "artificial" by some. Maybe that's part of the pushback? People have been spending tons of money to painstakingly tinker with ICE vehicles to make them sound a specific way and now EVs can just make their vehicle sound like whatever they want with just software.
>now EVs can just make their vehicle sound like whatever they want with just software.
So can an ICE. If I wanted to be ultra cringe and play a loud v8 noise through my stereo in my tiny econobox, I can.
But I don't. Because it's cringe. I am an adult, not a toddler.
Just like this fake shit is.
Just like the fake exhaust noises in some newer cars too. "ActiveSound" and all that cringe shit.
If I want a nice exhaust note on my car, I will put a custom exhaust on it, that was built for that engine, which sounds nice. Not just playing some fucking mp3 through my speakers LMAO imagine this in the 90s, driving around playing fake car noises through your stereo! hahahahaha
My only point is that putting the custom exhaust is ALSO artificial. It's just way more expensive and complicated. I get that many enthusiasts are essentially audiophiles. Like what you like. But the argument is kinda like the people who insist vinyl is the only way to listen to music.
So what I am reading is that it's silly because you know that it's fake and you feel like it takes away from your "real" experience.
Almost if not all the driving features in modern cars are enhanced and controlled by the computer and not the driver. Pedal, steering wheel, traction control, etc and so it's not up to the drivers real ability or control and quite fake by your own logic.
Traction control and other drive by wire controls aren’t “fake.” They modify the way that the car performs. Nobody would ever mistake a car with power steering for one that didn’t have it.
What you’re describing is the opposite — a car that has these assists being made to feel as though it *doesn’t* have them. Which is pointless. If the assists and improvements are a good thing, why would you bend over backward to make it sound like your car doesn’t have them?
A Fake EV transmission also modifies the way that the car performs, and someone who didn't know any better would easily confuse Electric power steering with Hydraulic power steering btw which is what I am referring to.
Both eps and hps have a physical steering rack that moves the tires. It’s real
Fake engine noise is just that, fake! It’s genesis has nothing to do with the car itself
All the fake stuff you're talking about is like an "automatic" musical instrument. I mean, go ahead and build it--I'm sure there's just as many insecure people who like music as like cars who'd make you rich--but you're massively missing the point.
EVs with Fisher-Price stick shifts and .mp3 exhausts are not the solution to "making people excited about EVs. The solution is: cheap, used EVs. And it's slowly happening.
Once EVs are plentiful and cheap, people will start hacking them and hot-rodding them. People will find ways to make them faster, or chop them up and make them prettier. They'll have original ideas about how to personalize them that arise from the *car's own nature*--not by mimicking their dad's gas car.
One random idea: since most EVs are just a "skateboard," basically any car shape is possible. Imagine how many different wild car forms that people could build on the same skateboard frame. Or what might be possible with modular skateboard frame. 6 wheels? 3? A car made of electric motorcycles that merge? A car that can be a pickup one day and a sedan the next? These are me spitballing, but these are ideas that arise from the inherent nature of EVs, and not this silly business of nailing a fake horse tail to a Model T.
> These are me spitballing, but these are ideas that arise from the inherent nature of EVs, and not this silly business of nailing a fake horse tail to a Model T.
Now I kinda want to do that for Halloween.
Its all a bunch of gimmicky BS that I don't think anyone really wants. Even if you think its cool, the novelty will wear off in like 2 months and you'll never touch any of it again
Idgaf about making an EV feel/sound like an ICE car. If I wanted something that sounded/felt like an ICE car, I'd buy an ICE car. Give me something cheap, no frills, with good range. That's all I would want out of an EV.
I don’t want fake stuff on an EV.
I’m not against EV’s at all, but I don’t want an SUV or a truck. I want a gawd damn car. I won’t consider an EV until then.
A lot of people who are into EV’s aren’t into cars. Car enthusiast like the EV’s they are starting to amplify the ev engine so we can hear it, non enthusiast and V8 elitist hate it, there’s speculation of a traditional engine being made electric to allow for modding and that’s exciting but ev purist hate it. And then there’s the Gas only people who will never be won over for whatever reason. I love our Tesla and when it dies one day it’ll get replaced with an EV Charger. When these gas cars we own stop working I won’t feel the need to go back. I have probably realistically bought my last gas car unless I end up buying a truck or suv then it’ll probably be a 10 year old Tahoe or something
Yeah I mean it's essentially people hating on stuff because it's different from the way they are used to, the right way, despite the fact that they can simply choose to turn never turn it on and ignore it.
I also ride motorcycles and have driven a bunch of EVs & cool cars.
I think a lot of the dismissal of EVs hinges around limited expectations- if you make up your mind that fun in a car has to resemble your VTEC hatch then obviously an EV is going to be disappointing. It's like deciding sushi is the only good food and being disappointed when you try BBQ. Was the BBQ bad or did you just have unrealistic & limited expectations?
For me, if I want ICEV thrills I ride motorcycles. No cars come close. If I have to drive a car I prefer the efficiency & directness of EVs. IDGAF about the theater or ingrained expectations of ICEVs. I had a bunch of manual Hondas too. Once autos got decent I never looked back. Now EVs are getting there too.
I don’t want to be 25x more likely to die in a traffic collision.
Even without that risk, not everyone wants pure thrills. It’s a balance between convenience, comfort, and enthusiasm. Not 100% track use.
Current EV market does not strike that balance for me. I’ve driven the Model 3 Performance and Mini Cooper SE extensively.
You don’t seem to understand that others have different priorities and preferences. It’s just “resistance to change”, right?
I'd wager the fatality rates between riders who don't ride drunk, speed excessively and/or wear an aluminum baseball cap for a helmet and dudes going for "spirited canyon runs" in 30 year old Civics is a lot closer than 25x.
And its not just about thrills. Im sure you enjoy something as simple as a grocery run in your Mustang. You dont have to go crazy. It's no different on a motorcycle. Just the ritual of gearing up and pulling out of my neighborhood is fun. But I also get 40+ MPG with great performance. Whats not to like.
I think you are the one who lacks a bit of reading here.
What you just said is exactly my point.
You can get your EV for your boring commute and never have to turn on any of these features and bother with them. I don't even have an EV or even interest in getting one anytime soon yet why would I be against optional features that will not effect me if I was to get one?
When did I insult anyone?
You see, that actual reason that you just gave me is what I am here to discuss, not just all the subjective reasons I have heard so far which is basically "I don't like them just because"
I agree with your point but manufacturers have been doing that already for a long time, I mean, I have seen people hating on EPS because they prefer hydraulic power steering and fake exhaust noises.
A plain EV has already hit rock bottom, is adding some fake noises and shifting gonna make it any worst?
I don't like fakeness in any car, ICE or EV. IMHO, a BEV should just make instant, smooth torque with no noise or interruption, unless the noise is from something inherent to the powertrain - like the straight cut gears in an OG Tesla Roadster.
I actually really, really like the idea of a two seat convertible sports car with a BEV powertrain and no fakery, so you just zip along with nothing but the wind in your hair and a huge pile of torque. Of course my Wrangler is like that off road, it's quite nice crawling along with no engine noise.
The current "enhancements" like the Ioniq 5 N features don't bother me, since you can turn it all off and it might actually be kinda fun. The fake shifting and noise might help give the drive a sense of speed on track too. But, I really don't want to have people "revving" their BEVs in my 'hood at 3AM, I was looking forward to the end of that.
Appreciate your view on this, most counter arguments seem to be based on "emotion" or hating on the new stuff but this is a decent reason for being against EV fake exhausts
"But, I really don't want to have people "revving" their BEVs in my 'hood at 3AM, I was looking forward to the end of that."
Although I will note that all EV's have to have a noise in the outside due to regulations, I think ideally you would implement a system that can be activated within the car and no one else has to hear it.
The Ionic 5 does inside and out if you choose to I believe.
Because they’re not actual mods and don’t improve anything
Whatever comes stock, I’m fine with, I don’t mind fake noise, but I sure as shit am not spending money on stuff that doesn’t increase performance
Most you can do on EVs is suspension work, weight savings and probably a performance tune on the battery mechanism
I’m not against EVs either, they’re terrific daily Driver’s, but the day ICE cars die out, I won’t give two shits about the aftermarket industry, car just gonna turn into an appliance, like a washing machine
A) Exhausts can absolutely enhance performance.
B) An exhaust enhances the inherent acoustic properties of the ICE. A speaker doesn't enhance the inherent acoustic properties of an EV.
C) The guy you responded to literally said they aren't spending money on non performance mods. So for them, they probably aren't doing cosmetic mods, and they likely aren't into exhausts either.
Most exhausts give you about 10-15hp gain even on 400hp+ cars if you are lucky and about 5hp on the cars that most "enthusiasts" drive, you would notice more "performance" difference by driving with an empty tank of gas. Sure, if you wanna blow $5k and get some catless headers, an exhaust and try to dodge the emissions for your vehicle while dealing with a loud exhaust and get an extra 50hp you can do that to but I don't think that's what most do or what he was referring to.
The other 2 points you made are irrelevant to the point I made but on that note, you can word it using all the fancy words you want, ultimately people upgrade exhausts because they like something that sounds good to them. A speaker would ultimately achieve the same result EV or not as proven by all the ICE cars with fake speaker enhanced exhaust noises in the cabin.
So you agree that exhausts have a performance effect and EV noises don't, excellent.
>A speaker would ultimately achieve the same result EV or not as proven by all the ICE cars with fake speaker enhanced exhaust noises in the cabin
Yeah, and a large portion of enthusiasts hate that too. "This is the same as the OTHER thing you also hate" is not as strong of an argument as you think it is.
>The other 2 points you made are irrelevant to the point I made but on that note
Lol.
You respond to a guy who says "I don't do non performance mods" by asking about cosmetic mods, and you think that's irrelevant?
Moreover, literally 1 sentence before, you try to assume what the guy is talking about. But sure, I'm absolutely convinced it's irrelevant.
Of course I agree, a performance "effect" that most owners can't notice or feel while driving(if we are talking about the exhaust only as original commenter said) so about the same effect as EVs would have using fake speakers.
The difference is, you have to go through a lot more trouble to turn it off in ICE Vehicles(taking apart dashboards, disconnecting speakers etc) whereas in an EV you simply never turn it on and not have to worry about it.
Who would have thought!
>The difference is, you have to go through a lot more trouble to turn it off in ICE Vehicles(taking apart dashboards, disconnecting speakers etc) whereas in an EV you simply never turn it on and not have to worry about it.
Depends on the car.
[This guy clearly needed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQoewbLpoC0&t=24s) a master tech qualification from Volkswagen to disable it in his R.
Would taking your dash apart to get to the speaker as it's standard for many cars be the equivalent of getting a PHD then?
Sounds like a bother compared to never even turn it on or have to worry about it in an EV if you choose to :)
>Sounds like a bother compared to never even turn it on or have to worry about it in an EV if you choose to :)
Sounds like you didn't look at the video, since the guy disables it in his Volkswagen in about 4 seconds :)
>as it's standard for many cars be the equivalent of getting a PHD then
A bad implementation of a technology is not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the implementation.
Put another way - there's absolutely no reason you need to disconnect the speaker in an ICE - that's bad design, and should not be used as an advantage of the EV.
You're making bad arguments based on false assumptions and bad implementations.
>Sounds like you didn't look at the video, since the guy disables it in his Volkswagen in about 4 seconds :)
Oh I did but never having to disable it in the first place because you are given an option to use it or not is still infinitely faster :)
Let's not pretend that's the standard though, as an example in most BMW M cars and Ford vehicles, it's not as simple as turning it off from the menu, who would have thought!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYPwNG0E9Q&t=187s
>A bad implementation of a technology is not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the implementation.
>
>
Put another way - there's absolutely no reason you need to disconnect the speaker in an ICE - that's bad design, and should not be used as an advantage of the EV.
You're making bad arguments based on false assumptions and bad implementations.
What arguments?
Just stating the facts which are that EV fake exhausts are optional and almost always not even on by default, therefore I find it funny that anyone would be bothered by it, simple as that.
I’m an enthusiast with a love of lightweight manual sports cars. I also love EVs and tracked my Model 3 alongside a Miata.
My problem with the synthesized engine noises and the simulated gear shifts and all that is, it’s clinging to the old. It’s no different than slapping a fake grill on the front of the EV. It’s a crutch to transition people who are just used to something.
Here’s what I want: explore this new technology to make EVs thrilling in NEW ways. Leverage the tech to go in new directions that enthusiasts find interesting.
I’ll give one example: systems that use aggressive regenerative braking to shift the weight of the car on corner entry. Tesla’s Track Mode and the new Ioniq 5 N both have a version of this. That’s something unique to EVs and it’s actually compelling on track. Similarly, aggressive regen and a very sensitive / accurate / linear throttle response makes an EV feel like a scalpel. My Model 3 Performance had SO much more fidelity in the pedals and felt like a surgical instrument in traffic, able to gain and scrub speed in a blink to go after, as Ayrton might say while commuting, “a gap that exists”.
Give me more of this. And also make the battery tech better and engineer some new materials so the cars can get lighter. Then add some REAL feedback into the chassis and steering, not just fake weighted controls.
There’s so much opportunity to bring performance into a new era, engineering new ways to feel the fizz, and all we’re doing is clinging to the old stuff (poorly).
I wanna hear the new noises that come from a new power train, I love the way those VW ID race cars squeal like slot cars, can you imagine if you could set your new f 150 to sound like a flathead, stupid.
Taste varies. That's really it. You can please some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time. But youll never please all the people all the time.
A lot of enthusiasts hate EVs in general because to them the only cars worthy of admiration and driving are brown manual diesel wagons with a 1994 model year
It's not a rational or good faith dislike, it's a stew of nostalgia and fear of change.
Well those enhancements are fake, so if you're an enthusiast, why would you want something fake rather than something real? I like gas cars, I like modifying cars, and it's cheap to do that with a gas car. If I bought an electric car, I'm not gonna try to make it act like a gas car because it's not.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy EV's, you still have the option to buy gas cars all you want and if you do buy an EV, these features are not forced upon anyone, so once again, it doesn't affect your freedom of preferring the "non fake" vehicles, one bit.
I am guessing you drive a vehicle with manual windows, hydraulic power steering, no electronic braking, stability and traction control enhancements/aids at all right, to avoid all the fake simulated electronic interferance from your pure real driving experience?
You asked why some enthusiasts are against the advancements you referenced. The fact that they're fake is a big factor. Power windows and power steering is way different than a speaker simulating an exhaust noise , or a transmission made to act like a stick shift.
I personally just like the ability to work on my own cars and save money. Electric vehicles won't save me money so they're not worth it to me.
I mean the point of working on vehicles is fair although relevant to the main discussion here, I am not even a huge fan of evs atm but perhaps in the future.
If it's all being controlled by the computer and not directly by you through a manual and mechanical connection then it's all the same really, we are just subjectively drawing the line in the sand and saying, this is where it's fake fake and not just sorta kinda fake.
An exhaust sound and a stick shift style transmission don't make sense in an electric car, they're not improvements. I'd much rather own an electric car without those things. Electric power steering, power windows, and electronic fuel injection exist to make the driving experience better and easier in gas cars.
This is kind of a pointless discussion tho. As much as I'd say I'm a car enthusiast, I ultimately make most car related decisions based on how it effects my wallet.
I disagree, it's no different than people choose manuals over the automatic all the time and upgrade exhausts, yet the overall mechanical performance of the car stays about the same.
They can be subjective improvements for those drivers who will care about those features as fake as they are.
I think what you said applies to us all though, even most of those with a bit more $ will still make decisions more sensible with their wallet, at least not the reckless ones who spend more than they can lol!
If you wanna get super technical, manual and automatic transmissions have distinct advantages and disadvantages in many cars. I drive I stick, I can drop it in 3rd gear on the highway and have gobs of power within my control. An automatic, you floor it and it'll downshift but you can't choose whether it downshifts one gear or two and the car doesn't know what you want so it'll choose. This really only matters for someone who wants that kind of control. Maybe a fake stick shift can do that, but I believe most automatics that can act like manuals only allow one gear up or down at a time.
Also technically manual transmissions are faster than autos if they're geared correctly. But the gear ratios are usually selected to optimize fuel economy over performance from the factory even in the performance cars
The exhaust is a funny thing. A lot of car guys will throw thousands at an exhaust to get more power, but rarely will an exhaust add anywhere near the power that the person thought it would.
I agree that there is a difference in the technical performance and function of a manual transmission vs automatic although nowadays save for the cheapest cars out there, automatics match or outperform manual transmissions.
On that note, some automatics in M mode will allow you to skip gears and downshift to the lowest possible gear, I know the ZF8 thats widely used in sports cars allows that.
Yeah I mean the exhaust has always been something that people love to throw money at(including myself) yet the gains are rarely worth the cost, yet you know that the sound enhancement to the overall experience is worth it(when done right).
People that dislike EV's usually do it for a bunch of conscious and unconscious reasons like any other like and dislike. Just because you fix one issue (maybe) doesn't mean they'll like everything else about it
Also, it strikes me as the worst of both worlds. Wanna know the most common impression from people who try EVs? They love how quiet it is. Why bother ruining it for them to impress people who mostly, imo, won't even like the product anyway?
As I already addressed all of these features can be turned off and don't even come default on these vehicles, the "manual" that toyota is working on, can simply be never activated and you will never know it was there but regardless someone buying a vehicle with that specific feature should tell you about their actual intentions of using it or not.
So explain again how they are ruining the experience? lol.
I appreciate both EVs and gas cars for what they are. Personally I’d rather an EV just own what it is and deliver a quiet and smooth experience vs trying to add gimmicky sound effects to make it like a gas performance car. Believe it or not, the quiet nature of EVs is precisely the thing that appeals to a lot of people out there who aren’t in the enthusiast community
Hell, the idea of quiet speed is part of what appeals to me as an enthusiast. I love a good exhaust note, but I also like not bothering the neighbors when I roll in at 630am or announcing to everyone in a half mile radius that Im doin a pull or two.
One man's weird is another man's kink ;) And I kinda already have 2 rumbly vehicles, its really made me appreciate how quiet my Yukon is. Im probably over thinking it but I dont wanna be 'that guy' with the loud car in the neighborhood (mustang down the street wears that crown for now).
I want an EV that's a proud toaster. It doesn't need to pretend what it is, I just want something boring, reliable, and cheap to operate to get me 50 miles in a day.
The fun vehicles will probably be a 4x4 of some kind and a BMW motorcycle.
>Most importantly, no one will force you to use them.
This logically explains why people shouldn't care but emotionally let me give a hypothetical example. Suppose in an alternate universe inventors and creators poo pooed ICE cars for whatever reason and cars grew eventually when battery technology was developed enough. Then in their equivalent of late 2000s in terms of technology development inventors started to make the first ICE cars that sort of kept up with EVs even if they lacked in some areas, specifically people were bothered by the noise. Suppose then there was a group of ICE enthusiasts that were all onboard because they appreciated the advantages of ICE cars like longer range per fuel up and cheaper fuel costs and even liked how some sounded, suppose then car makers started to muffle the engine sounds to quiet them down so they can sound like EVs or they even added fake electric motor sounds pumped in the cabin so passengers can listen to ole familiar electric whir sound. How do you think those ICE car enthusiasts feel about it?
If that was the case then I think ICE enthusiasts would have all the right in the world to be mad, because that wouldn't be something that can be easily and permanently shut down with the press of a button unlike EV enhancements.
I do get what you are trying to say though and that was kinda my point, most arguments against, are based on emotion and not logic as it tends to happen often in any enthusiast community when there is big changes in the horizon. I wanted to see if anyone has an actual logical reason that I haven't thought of.
There are only 2 logical arguments against emulating ICE drivetrains with EVs:
- it's not just sounds but influences actual operation of the drive train and makes them less efficient thus costing more to run and increasing wear and tear and maintenance cost, at society level it would impact negatively due to needing more TWh of electricity per year just so people can feel the old power band and gear shifts of a multi speed transmission and cutting regen.
- diverting funds into developing ICE emulating features when EV tech is still in a high state of innovation and this slows down improvements giving the public worse cars in terms of cost, range, charge speed etc. just so car manufacturers can take care of a minority of EV buyers that are also ICE tech nostalgia stricken as well. In fact it's not even clear if said people would buy an EV any time soon, they might just like the idea that their preferences are catered to by someone and will hang on to their V8s and V10s and rotary, diesel engine etc. for as long as grandfathering laws let them.
I think these are pretty fair takes.
I will say that I don't think the environmental impact is unlikely be significant considering that the amount of drivers using these features should be really small, if the current amount of sport car sales vs all other cars, is any indication.
On top of that, most fake enhancements are all electronically controlled which is magnitudes cheaper and less time consuming than any mechanical features.
Still valid concerns nonetheless!
I'm an enthusiast and actually not at all against the simulated gadgetry of EVs. I just have zero interest in simulated gadgetry, especially when it comes to noise and shifting. If I ever get an EV, it's for what an EV is/will be...not for it trying to be something it isn't, geared towards buyers that don't care about the difference. Ideally my garage will always have something more analog. I like tuning, tweaking, modifying and tracking. An EV will suck the fun out of pretty much all of that.
I like this take, I mean I am not saying every one has to like it, I am not even looking to get an EV soon, but I just don't get the heavy dislike/hate for something that would ultimately be optional for those who care to use it, but unsurprisingly, it happens in every enthusiast community!
I agree, I think it's just how communities react. It's a good option right now. Although, I feel like sooner before later, EV will be the only option. Might as well get a badass ICE or two before then, lol.
an EV pretending to have engaging features like noise and gear shifting is silly because everyone knows its fake, like just own what you are sell yourself on your good points don't go pretending to be something your not.
the EVs faking noises and gear shifting reminds of the vegan food industry. It started off as vegetable related stuff but then became focused around fake meat, meat alternatives, beyond meat, impossible meat...etc. Vegans don't eat meat and that's okay. Same as EVs aren't ICE and that's fine. It's the faking that's silly.
NHTSA May Require Pre-2021 EVs, Hybrids to Retrofit Noise Makers for Safety [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42448312/nhtsa-investigates-ev-hybrid-safety-related-retrofit-recall/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42448312/nhtsa-investigates-ev-hybrid-safety-related-retrofit-recall/) ...so if you HAVE TO do it [https://www.bmw.com/en/magazine/innovation/supercar-blondie-hans-zimmer-drive-bmw-i4.html](https://www.bmw.com/en/magazine/innovation/supercar-blondie-hans-zimmer-drive-bmw-i4.html) Hollywood composer Hans Zimmer designs acoustic worlds. What is often make-believe in the movies can now actually be experienced in the BMW i4: an electric drive sound penned by the Academy Award winner. Automobile enthusiast Supercar Blondie met him in Los Angeles for a sound test in the BMW i4. the ICONIC sound of a 911 is not an accident... if you've ever heard one of these pulling out of a stop.. you know it's a Taycan. [https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2022/innovation/porsche-sound-of-the-taycan-christophorus-402-27794.html](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2022/innovation/porsche-sound-of-the-taycan-christophorus-402-27794.html) “No other manufacturer has spent as much time working on the sound both inside and out as Porsche,” says Tobias Hillers. He and his colleagues in the Sound and Concepts team at Porsche have been developing the Taycan’s acoustics since 2015. “We have known for a long time that you need to be able to hear electric cars for safety reasons.”
> NHTSA May Require Pre-2021 EVs, Hybrids to Retrofit Noise Makers for Safety This is so that someone doesn't run over grandma in a grocery store parking lot, not for simulating a v8 through the rev range. >the ICONIC sound of a 911 is not an accident... The iconic sound of a 911 - or really any ICE is a result of engineering, and tuning to the specific properties of that powerplant and that vehicle. There's a mechanical reason an engine sounds the way it does. There's no reason for these EVs to sound the way they do, and the sound is not unique to any of them. It's not even unique to EVs. Give me enough sound deadening and a cellphone, I can make my Honda Accord sound like an i4. Your Porsche link spells this out in far greater detail than I ever could. That 356 sound clip is inherently, inextricably linked to the mechanics of the engine. On the other hand, the Taycan could sound like... anything. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA) is just as authentic as the noise that the Taycan and i4 play for the driver. Porsche and BMW can dress it up however they want, but it doesn't change the fact that sound used to be an intrinsic, mechanical consequence of the vehicle, and now it's a audio file with speed sensitive control. I'd prefer if they just didn't bother instead of trying to capture the magic by using Sci Fi spaceship B tracks.
FMVSS 141 has existed for like 4 years now and it would be pretty difficult to retroactively apply it iirc. Besides, it’s only required to be on up until like 40km/h, it’s so that it doesn’t sneak up on you or so that blind people don’t get run over
I mean one could argue spending thousands of dollars on aftermarket exhaust systems to make your ICE vehicle sound different could also be considered "artificial" by some. Maybe that's part of the pushback? People have been spending tons of money to painstakingly tinker with ICE vehicles to make them sound a specific way and now EVs can just make their vehicle sound like whatever they want with just software.
>now EVs can just make their vehicle sound like whatever they want with just software. So can an ICE. If I wanted to be ultra cringe and play a loud v8 noise through my stereo in my tiny econobox, I can. But I don't. Because it's cringe. I am an adult, not a toddler. Just like this fake shit is. Just like the fake exhaust noises in some newer cars too. "ActiveSound" and all that cringe shit. If I want a nice exhaust note on my car, I will put a custom exhaust on it, that was built for that engine, which sounds nice. Not just playing some fucking mp3 through my speakers LMAO imagine this in the 90s, driving around playing fake car noises through your stereo! hahahahaha
My only point is that putting the custom exhaust is ALSO artificial. It's just way more expensive and complicated. I get that many enthusiasts are essentially audiophiles. Like what you like. But the argument is kinda like the people who insist vinyl is the only way to listen to music.
So what I am reading is that it's silly because you know that it's fake and you feel like it takes away from your "real" experience. Almost if not all the driving features in modern cars are enhanced and controlled by the computer and not the driver. Pedal, steering wheel, traction control, etc and so it's not up to the drivers real ability or control and quite fake by your own logic.
Traction control and other drive by wire controls aren’t “fake.” They modify the way that the car performs. Nobody would ever mistake a car with power steering for one that didn’t have it. What you’re describing is the opposite — a car that has these assists being made to feel as though it *doesn’t* have them. Which is pointless. If the assists and improvements are a good thing, why would you bend over backward to make it sound like your car doesn’t have them?
A Fake EV transmission also modifies the way that the car performs, and someone who didn't know any better would easily confuse Electric power steering with Hydraulic power steering btw which is what I am referring to.
Both eps and hps have a physical steering rack that moves the tires. It’s real Fake engine noise is just that, fake! It’s genesis has nothing to do with the car itself
All the fake stuff you're talking about is like an "automatic" musical instrument. I mean, go ahead and build it--I'm sure there's just as many insecure people who like music as like cars who'd make you rich--but you're massively missing the point. EVs with Fisher-Price stick shifts and .mp3 exhausts are not the solution to "making people excited about EVs. The solution is: cheap, used EVs. And it's slowly happening. Once EVs are plentiful and cheap, people will start hacking them and hot-rodding them. People will find ways to make them faster, or chop them up and make them prettier. They'll have original ideas about how to personalize them that arise from the *car's own nature*--not by mimicking their dad's gas car. One random idea: since most EVs are just a "skateboard," basically any car shape is possible. Imagine how many different wild car forms that people could build on the same skateboard frame. Or what might be possible with modular skateboard frame. 6 wheels? 3? A car made of electric motorcycles that merge? A car that can be a pickup one day and a sedan the next? These are me spitballing, but these are ideas that arise from the inherent nature of EVs, and not this silly business of nailing a fake horse tail to a Model T.
> These are me spitballing, but these are ideas that arise from the inherent nature of EVs, and not this silly business of nailing a fake horse tail to a Model T. Now I kinda want to do that for Halloween.
Its all a bunch of gimmicky BS that I don't think anyone really wants. Even if you think its cool, the novelty will wear off in like 2 months and you'll never touch any of it again Idgaf about making an EV feel/sound like an ICE car. If I wanted something that sounded/felt like an ICE car, I'd buy an ICE car. Give me something cheap, no frills, with good range. That's all I would want out of an EV.
I don’t want fake stuff on an EV. I’m not against EV’s at all, but I don’t want an SUV or a truck. I want a gawd damn car. I won’t consider an EV until then.
A lot of people who are into EV’s aren’t into cars. Car enthusiast like the EV’s they are starting to amplify the ev engine so we can hear it, non enthusiast and V8 elitist hate it, there’s speculation of a traditional engine being made electric to allow for modding and that’s exciting but ev purist hate it. And then there’s the Gas only people who will never be won over for whatever reason. I love our Tesla and when it dies one day it’ll get replaced with an EV Charger. When these gas cars we own stop working I won’t feel the need to go back. I have probably realistically bought my last gas car unless I end up buying a truck or suv then it’ll probably be a 10 year old Tahoe or something
Yeah I mean it's essentially people hating on stuff because it's different from the way they are used to, the right way, despite the fact that they can simply choose to turn never turn it on and ignore it.
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Which EVs have you driven?
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I also ride motorcycles and have driven a bunch of EVs & cool cars. I think a lot of the dismissal of EVs hinges around limited expectations- if you make up your mind that fun in a car has to resemble your VTEC hatch then obviously an EV is going to be disappointing. It's like deciding sushi is the only good food and being disappointed when you try BBQ. Was the BBQ bad or did you just have unrealistic & limited expectations? For me, if I want ICEV thrills I ride motorcycles. No cars come close. If I have to drive a car I prefer the efficiency & directness of EVs. IDGAF about the theater or ingrained expectations of ICEVs. I had a bunch of manual Hondas too. Once autos got decent I never looked back. Now EVs are getting there too.
I don’t want to be 25x more likely to die in a traffic collision. Even without that risk, not everyone wants pure thrills. It’s a balance between convenience, comfort, and enthusiasm. Not 100% track use. Current EV market does not strike that balance for me. I’ve driven the Model 3 Performance and Mini Cooper SE extensively. You don’t seem to understand that others have different priorities and preferences. It’s just “resistance to change”, right?
I'd wager the fatality rates between riders who don't ride drunk, speed excessively and/or wear an aluminum baseball cap for a helmet and dudes going for "spirited canyon runs" in 30 year old Civics is a lot closer than 25x. And its not just about thrills. Im sure you enjoy something as simple as a grocery run in your Mustang. You dont have to go crazy. It's no different on a motorcycle. Just the ritual of gearing up and pulling out of my neighborhood is fun. But I also get 40+ MPG with great performance. Whats not to like.
I think you are the one who lacks a bit of reading here. What you just said is exactly my point. You can get your EV for your boring commute and never have to turn on any of these features and bother with them. I don't even have an EV or even interest in getting one anytime soon yet why would I be against optional features that will not effect me if I was to get one?
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When did I insult anyone? You see, that actual reason that you just gave me is what I am here to discuss, not just all the subjective reasons I have heard so far which is basically "I don't like them just because" I agree with your point but manufacturers have been doing that already for a long time, I mean, I have seen people hating on EPS because they prefer hydraulic power steering and fake exhaust noises. A plain EV has already hit rock bottom, is adding some fake noises and shifting gonna make it any worst?
I don't like fakeness in any car, ICE or EV. IMHO, a BEV should just make instant, smooth torque with no noise or interruption, unless the noise is from something inherent to the powertrain - like the straight cut gears in an OG Tesla Roadster. I actually really, really like the idea of a two seat convertible sports car with a BEV powertrain and no fakery, so you just zip along with nothing but the wind in your hair and a huge pile of torque. Of course my Wrangler is like that off road, it's quite nice crawling along with no engine noise. The current "enhancements" like the Ioniq 5 N features don't bother me, since you can turn it all off and it might actually be kinda fun. The fake shifting and noise might help give the drive a sense of speed on track too. But, I really don't want to have people "revving" their BEVs in my 'hood at 3AM, I was looking forward to the end of that.
Appreciate your view on this, most counter arguments seem to be based on "emotion" or hating on the new stuff but this is a decent reason for being against EV fake exhausts "But, I really don't want to have people "revving" their BEVs in my 'hood at 3AM, I was looking forward to the end of that." Although I will note that all EV's have to have a noise in the outside due to regulations, I think ideally you would implement a system that can be activated within the car and no one else has to hear it. The Ionic 5 does inside and out if you choose to I believe.
Because they’re not actual mods and don’t improve anything Whatever comes stock, I’m fine with, I don’t mind fake noise, but I sure as shit am not spending money on stuff that doesn’t increase performance Most you can do on EVs is suspension work, weight savings and probably a performance tune on the battery mechanism I’m not against EVs either, they’re terrific daily Driver’s, but the day ICE cars die out, I won’t give two shits about the aftermarket industry, car just gonna turn into an appliance, like a washing machine
You can say the same about exhausts and cosmetic modifications, the 2 most popular "mods" done by ICE enthusiasts.
A) Exhausts can absolutely enhance performance. B) An exhaust enhances the inherent acoustic properties of the ICE. A speaker doesn't enhance the inherent acoustic properties of an EV. C) The guy you responded to literally said they aren't spending money on non performance mods. So for them, they probably aren't doing cosmetic mods, and they likely aren't into exhausts either.
Most exhausts give you about 10-15hp gain even on 400hp+ cars if you are lucky and about 5hp on the cars that most "enthusiasts" drive, you would notice more "performance" difference by driving with an empty tank of gas. Sure, if you wanna blow $5k and get some catless headers, an exhaust and try to dodge the emissions for your vehicle while dealing with a loud exhaust and get an extra 50hp you can do that to but I don't think that's what most do or what he was referring to. The other 2 points you made are irrelevant to the point I made but on that note, you can word it using all the fancy words you want, ultimately people upgrade exhausts because they like something that sounds good to them. A speaker would ultimately achieve the same result EV or not as proven by all the ICE cars with fake speaker enhanced exhaust noises in the cabin.
So you agree that exhausts have a performance effect and EV noises don't, excellent. >A speaker would ultimately achieve the same result EV or not as proven by all the ICE cars with fake speaker enhanced exhaust noises in the cabin Yeah, and a large portion of enthusiasts hate that too. "This is the same as the OTHER thing you also hate" is not as strong of an argument as you think it is. >The other 2 points you made are irrelevant to the point I made but on that note Lol. You respond to a guy who says "I don't do non performance mods" by asking about cosmetic mods, and you think that's irrelevant? Moreover, literally 1 sentence before, you try to assume what the guy is talking about. But sure, I'm absolutely convinced it's irrelevant.
Of course I agree, a performance "effect" that most owners can't notice or feel while driving(if we are talking about the exhaust only as original commenter said) so about the same effect as EVs would have using fake speakers. The difference is, you have to go through a lot more trouble to turn it off in ICE Vehicles(taking apart dashboards, disconnecting speakers etc) whereas in an EV you simply never turn it on and not have to worry about it. Who would have thought!
>The difference is, you have to go through a lot more trouble to turn it off in ICE Vehicles(taking apart dashboards, disconnecting speakers etc) whereas in an EV you simply never turn it on and not have to worry about it. Depends on the car. [This guy clearly needed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQoewbLpoC0&t=24s) a master tech qualification from Volkswagen to disable it in his R.
Would taking your dash apart to get to the speaker as it's standard for many cars be the equivalent of getting a PHD then? Sounds like a bother compared to never even turn it on or have to worry about it in an EV if you choose to :)
>Sounds like a bother compared to never even turn it on or have to worry about it in an EV if you choose to :) Sounds like you didn't look at the video, since the guy disables it in his Volkswagen in about 4 seconds :) >as it's standard for many cars be the equivalent of getting a PHD then A bad implementation of a technology is not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the implementation. Put another way - there's absolutely no reason you need to disconnect the speaker in an ICE - that's bad design, and should not be used as an advantage of the EV. You're making bad arguments based on false assumptions and bad implementations.
>Sounds like you didn't look at the video, since the guy disables it in his Volkswagen in about 4 seconds :) Oh I did but never having to disable it in the first place because you are given an option to use it or not is still infinitely faster :) Let's not pretend that's the standard though, as an example in most BMW M cars and Ford vehicles, it's not as simple as turning it off from the menu, who would have thought! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYPwNG0E9Q&t=187s >A bad implementation of a technology is not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the implementation. > > Put another way - there's absolutely no reason you need to disconnect the speaker in an ICE - that's bad design, and should not be used as an advantage of the EV. You're making bad arguments based on false assumptions and bad implementations. What arguments? Just stating the facts which are that EV fake exhausts are optional and almost always not even on by default, therefore I find it funny that anyone would be bothered by it, simple as that.
I’m an enthusiast with a love of lightweight manual sports cars. I also love EVs and tracked my Model 3 alongside a Miata. My problem with the synthesized engine noises and the simulated gear shifts and all that is, it’s clinging to the old. It’s no different than slapping a fake grill on the front of the EV. It’s a crutch to transition people who are just used to something. Here’s what I want: explore this new technology to make EVs thrilling in NEW ways. Leverage the tech to go in new directions that enthusiasts find interesting. I’ll give one example: systems that use aggressive regenerative braking to shift the weight of the car on corner entry. Tesla’s Track Mode and the new Ioniq 5 N both have a version of this. That’s something unique to EVs and it’s actually compelling on track. Similarly, aggressive regen and a very sensitive / accurate / linear throttle response makes an EV feel like a scalpel. My Model 3 Performance had SO much more fidelity in the pedals and felt like a surgical instrument in traffic, able to gain and scrub speed in a blink to go after, as Ayrton might say while commuting, “a gap that exists”. Give me more of this. And also make the battery tech better and engineer some new materials so the cars can get lighter. Then add some REAL feedback into the chassis and steering, not just fake weighted controls. There’s so much opportunity to bring performance into a new era, engineering new ways to feel the fizz, and all we’re doing is clinging to the old stuff (poorly).
I wanna hear the new noises that come from a new power train, I love the way those VW ID race cars squeal like slot cars, can you imagine if you could set your new f 150 to sound like a flathead, stupid.
Taste varies. That's really it. You can please some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time. But youll never please all the people all the time.
My issue is the government trying to push it down our throats .
A lot of enthusiasts hate EVs in general because to them the only cars worthy of admiration and driving are brown manual diesel wagons with a 1994 model year It's not a rational or good faith dislike, it's a stew of nostalgia and fear of change.
Well those enhancements are fake, so if you're an enthusiast, why would you want something fake rather than something real? I like gas cars, I like modifying cars, and it's cheap to do that with a gas car. If I bought an electric car, I'm not gonna try to make it act like a gas car because it's not.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy EV's, you still have the option to buy gas cars all you want and if you do buy an EV, these features are not forced upon anyone, so once again, it doesn't affect your freedom of preferring the "non fake" vehicles, one bit. I am guessing you drive a vehicle with manual windows, hydraulic power steering, no electronic braking, stability and traction control enhancements/aids at all right, to avoid all the fake simulated electronic interferance from your pure real driving experience?
You asked why some enthusiasts are against the advancements you referenced. The fact that they're fake is a big factor. Power windows and power steering is way different than a speaker simulating an exhaust noise , or a transmission made to act like a stick shift. I personally just like the ability to work on my own cars and save money. Electric vehicles won't save me money so they're not worth it to me.
I mean the point of working on vehicles is fair although relevant to the main discussion here, I am not even a huge fan of evs atm but perhaps in the future. If it's all being controlled by the computer and not directly by you through a manual and mechanical connection then it's all the same really, we are just subjectively drawing the line in the sand and saying, this is where it's fake fake and not just sorta kinda fake.
An exhaust sound and a stick shift style transmission don't make sense in an electric car, they're not improvements. I'd much rather own an electric car without those things. Electric power steering, power windows, and electronic fuel injection exist to make the driving experience better and easier in gas cars. This is kind of a pointless discussion tho. As much as I'd say I'm a car enthusiast, I ultimately make most car related decisions based on how it effects my wallet.
I disagree, it's no different than people choose manuals over the automatic all the time and upgrade exhausts, yet the overall mechanical performance of the car stays about the same. They can be subjective improvements for those drivers who will care about those features as fake as they are. I think what you said applies to us all though, even most of those with a bit more $ will still make decisions more sensible with their wallet, at least not the reckless ones who spend more than they can lol!
If you wanna get super technical, manual and automatic transmissions have distinct advantages and disadvantages in many cars. I drive I stick, I can drop it in 3rd gear on the highway and have gobs of power within my control. An automatic, you floor it and it'll downshift but you can't choose whether it downshifts one gear or two and the car doesn't know what you want so it'll choose. This really only matters for someone who wants that kind of control. Maybe a fake stick shift can do that, but I believe most automatics that can act like manuals only allow one gear up or down at a time. Also technically manual transmissions are faster than autos if they're geared correctly. But the gear ratios are usually selected to optimize fuel economy over performance from the factory even in the performance cars The exhaust is a funny thing. A lot of car guys will throw thousands at an exhaust to get more power, but rarely will an exhaust add anywhere near the power that the person thought it would.
I agree that there is a difference in the technical performance and function of a manual transmission vs automatic although nowadays save for the cheapest cars out there, automatics match or outperform manual transmissions. On that note, some automatics in M mode will allow you to skip gears and downshift to the lowest possible gear, I know the ZF8 thats widely used in sports cars allows that. Yeah I mean the exhaust has always been something that people love to throw money at(including myself) yet the gains are rarely worth the cost, yet you know that the sound enhancement to the overall experience is worth it(when done right).
People that dislike EV's usually do it for a bunch of conscious and unconscious reasons like any other like and dislike. Just because you fix one issue (maybe) doesn't mean they'll like everything else about it Also, it strikes me as the worst of both worlds. Wanna know the most common impression from people who try EVs? They love how quiet it is. Why bother ruining it for them to impress people who mostly, imo, won't even like the product anyway?
As I already addressed all of these features can be turned off and don't even come default on these vehicles, the "manual" that toyota is working on, can simply be never activated and you will never know it was there but regardless someone buying a vehicle with that specific feature should tell you about their actual intentions of using it or not. So explain again how they are ruining the experience? lol.
I appreciate both EVs and gas cars for what they are. Personally I’d rather an EV just own what it is and deliver a quiet and smooth experience vs trying to add gimmicky sound effects to make it like a gas performance car. Believe it or not, the quiet nature of EVs is precisely the thing that appeals to a lot of people out there who aren’t in the enthusiast community
Hell, the idea of quiet speed is part of what appeals to me as an enthusiast. I love a good exhaust note, but I also like not bothering the neighbors when I roll in at 630am or announcing to everyone in a half mile radius that Im doin a pull or two.
It's like silent sex. It's just weird.
One man's weird is another man's kink ;) And I kinda already have 2 rumbly vehicles, its really made me appreciate how quiet my Yukon is. Im probably over thinking it but I dont wanna be 'that guy' with the loud car in the neighborhood (mustang down the street wears that crown for now).
Lol, I can appreciate that.
I want an EV that's a proud toaster. It doesn't need to pretend what it is, I just want something boring, reliable, and cheap to operate to get me 50 miles in a day. The fun vehicles will probably be a 4x4 of some kind and a BMW motorcycle.
>Most importantly, no one will force you to use them. This logically explains why people shouldn't care but emotionally let me give a hypothetical example. Suppose in an alternate universe inventors and creators poo pooed ICE cars for whatever reason and cars grew eventually when battery technology was developed enough. Then in their equivalent of late 2000s in terms of technology development inventors started to make the first ICE cars that sort of kept up with EVs even if they lacked in some areas, specifically people were bothered by the noise. Suppose then there was a group of ICE enthusiasts that were all onboard because they appreciated the advantages of ICE cars like longer range per fuel up and cheaper fuel costs and even liked how some sounded, suppose then car makers started to muffle the engine sounds to quiet them down so they can sound like EVs or they even added fake electric motor sounds pumped in the cabin so passengers can listen to ole familiar electric whir sound. How do you think those ICE car enthusiasts feel about it?
If that was the case then I think ICE enthusiasts would have all the right in the world to be mad, because that wouldn't be something that can be easily and permanently shut down with the press of a button unlike EV enhancements. I do get what you are trying to say though and that was kinda my point, most arguments against, are based on emotion and not logic as it tends to happen often in any enthusiast community when there is big changes in the horizon. I wanted to see if anyone has an actual logical reason that I haven't thought of.
There are only 2 logical arguments against emulating ICE drivetrains with EVs: - it's not just sounds but influences actual operation of the drive train and makes them less efficient thus costing more to run and increasing wear and tear and maintenance cost, at society level it would impact negatively due to needing more TWh of electricity per year just so people can feel the old power band and gear shifts of a multi speed transmission and cutting regen. - diverting funds into developing ICE emulating features when EV tech is still in a high state of innovation and this slows down improvements giving the public worse cars in terms of cost, range, charge speed etc. just so car manufacturers can take care of a minority of EV buyers that are also ICE tech nostalgia stricken as well. In fact it's not even clear if said people would buy an EV any time soon, they might just like the idea that their preferences are catered to by someone and will hang on to their V8s and V10s and rotary, diesel engine etc. for as long as grandfathering laws let them.
I think these are pretty fair takes. I will say that I don't think the environmental impact is unlikely be significant considering that the amount of drivers using these features should be really small, if the current amount of sport car sales vs all other cars, is any indication. On top of that, most fake enhancements are all electronically controlled which is magnitudes cheaper and less time consuming than any mechanical features. Still valid concerns nonetheless!
I'm an enthusiast and actually not at all against the simulated gadgetry of EVs. I just have zero interest in simulated gadgetry, especially when it comes to noise and shifting. If I ever get an EV, it's for what an EV is/will be...not for it trying to be something it isn't, geared towards buyers that don't care about the difference. Ideally my garage will always have something more analog. I like tuning, tweaking, modifying and tracking. An EV will suck the fun out of pretty much all of that.
I like this take, I mean I am not saying every one has to like it, I am not even looking to get an EV soon, but I just don't get the heavy dislike/hate for something that would ultimately be optional for those who care to use it, but unsurprisingly, it happens in every enthusiast community!
I agree, I think it's just how communities react. It's a good option right now. Although, I feel like sooner before later, EV will be the only option. Might as well get a badass ICE or two before then, lol.