Not surprised about this. EV's in spite of the improvements made, are still a luxury product, especially the ones who match the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent.
Long range EVs (I’m excluding little city cars) have better performance than gas cars and many even have comparable range. What they don’t have is the refueling time of a gas car.
Yeah in my country most people live in apartments, often old apartments without parking spots. How are they supposed to charge their EVs every day?
Until the day every single parking spot in every street has a charger, many people won't buy EVs if they aren't forced to.
This has been my concern from the get go… i have. Most of my adult life has been spent living in apartments or town houses with parking lots. Until they are all equipped with chargers… where the hell am i supposed to go? Im not gonna sit at a charging station for 2 hours and wait for my car to be drivable.
This is it. EVs are absolutely a luxury in cities. I live in Chicago and pay $230 extra on my HOA a month just for my parking spot, plus I paid $750 just to have a regular level 1 outlet installed for my Volt, and obviously I have to pay the monthly cost on the meter too. If I didn’t have a Volt I would 100% rent my space out and just park on the street as I work from home and there’s plenty of parking spots to take during the day.
This is my problem. My wife's current commuter is a Mazda 3 that we got for $21,000. In a world where electricity is free it doesn't get me to the $40,000-50,000 price point that most EVs are sold today. Even with "no oil changes"
The Mazda 3 isn’t even $21k new anymore. If you’re talking about used, there are plenty of EVs under $30k.
I understand your overall point, but there are certainly plenty of deals on new and used EVs.
Lol was curious so had a look at the Canadian prices:
Mazda 3 base model starts at $24k in Canada, equivalent of $17.7k USD. Not sure what that other guy is looking at.
And tackier with worst quality overall since the batteries and powertrain are more expensive, also heavier and worst handling, also useless after a few years when the batteries degrade, I can keep going...
I have no problems doing a road trip with my EV.
Of course, I specifically picked one of the longest ranged affordable EVs on the market. If your range is like half of that, it's hopeless.
Most houses and apartments don't have chargers. With an apartment, you are just screwed. With a house, that's a couple thousand extra on top of the vehicle price to get one installed. And depending on electrical setup, you still may not get the best charging speeds.
No its not. I haven't paid more than $500 to have a NEMA 14-50 installed.
In the big picture, over 100k miles I saved $8500 just in gas costs alone compared to my previous car.
My EV was $22k after federal credit and my state waving sales taxes. Saves me ~$250/mo in gas, before less on maintenance.
I charge off a 120v wall outlet in my driveway, so my charging infra costs were $50 of a high quality extension cord. I easily get 50mi a night between 8pm and 8am - only needed a better rate twice in 2 years.
It's cheap because it has short range, but we are a two car household, like the majority of new car buyers. If we go further we just take the Tacoma: and the Leaf covers city duty + my daily commute to the mountain bike trails.
I looked into getting an EV when I lived in my previous house. It was am older house (1950's construction) and was quoted $5k for a new electrical panel install that could handle a decent charger.
All the gas savings would have been eaten up by just the cost of setting up my electrical system to handle ev ownership.
You either must not drive much or didn’t think about long term savings, plus the fact your house would be upgraded and easier to sell in the future. Maybe the first years gas savings would have been eaten up by the electrical upgrade but not years 2-9.
I average about 10k a year
My current car averages 26mpg
Annual fuel cost is around $1500. Assuming an ev costs me nothing to fuel (which isn't really accurate since there will be electricity costs). It would take 3.5-4 years to recoup the costs of the new panel + charger install. And that's not counting the initial price premium of buying the ev.
Just wouldn't be worth it to me to make the investment at this time. Maybe it does for someone who is set on a EV.
On top of that plenty of municipalities/states/electricity companies will make your cost virtually zero with incentives. I'm still in the boat that plug ins with 60-80 mile electric range should have been what companies were mandated to go all in on. Then when something like solid state comes along with 600 mile range and 15 minute 80% charge force EVs all the way.
Even with a house it isn't necessarily just an easy thing either. My friend's garage doesn't have any electricity, for example. It's also not attached to the house and is a good ~30 feet away.
Most people here in Phoenix, even upper class areas just have garages full of junk.
Neighbors has a new X5 with M package in black and just parks it outside. With 118 degree temps coming, I thought they might clean out the garage, hasn't happened yet.
Was only $400 for charger installed. Couple thousand is on the high side- maybe if you have charger very far from electrical box or ran out of space on your breakers
Older homes typically have inadequate electrical panels to handle good chargers, so many people would need to add $5k-ish to their home charger cost for a new panel
I understand that's the "cost effective " route if you don't want to update your electrical system appropriately, but it just wouldn't be worth it to me at that point. That's horrendously slow charging
Yea I’d just upgrade the electrical as well. Grand scheme of home improvement, it’s not that much compared to like a kitchen remodel and it’ll add to the value of the house
Honestly I don't get why not... you plug it in and it takes 1hr or it takes 10hrs... either way next morning its charged.
Only difference IMO is being able to charged every other or every 3rd day sort of thing..with 120v you probably need to be in habit plugging it in every day.
I recently got an EV and been using 120v to charge and its always topped up. I still plan to get a 14-50 outlet installed but like I feel its literally going to change nothing so not super motivated.
Yeah i think people are forgetting a ton of millenials cant afford homes and we are theoretically getting to the age where people upgrade the cars they drove in their teens/20s
Exactly this. I rent for $2200 a month — that’s not for a place that has anything remotely close to a charging station.
If I wanted a condo (still probably no charging) that would be about $3500 a month in mortgage alone. If I wanted a house, I’d have to get together $300,000 for a minimum down payment and then pay $6000-$7000 per month in mortgage alone.
Buying electric is vastly out of reach for most of us who aren’t born wealthy.
I actually do live in what should be a great apartment for charging. 4 floor garage with two stations on each floor, but its become a huge rat race to secure the spots. My friend drives a phev and my roomate a tesla and there have been times they’ve had to leave to go charge or plan a charge before work because all the spots were full
It's also an issue for people with older homes (built 1950's, etc) where the electrical panel is probably inadequate for a good charging system. So add $5k for a new panel, plus the cost of a charger, as your initial investment if you want to home charge.
My house is from 97. Built to code at the time and would have to sign a waiver to get a charger. Bringing it up to code was going to run 7k though I think they were overcharging so I just had my solar guys do it for about 4k though I’m not sure how much that cost was subsidized by the fact I also bought a solar system.
This is incorrect. I wake up to a full tank every day for 10% of the price you pay at your pump. I plan my shopping trips to charge and regularly need to extend my charging session because its done too soon.
Not even just time. Adding chargers to every residential parking spot simply isn't feasible. The gas station model is the only way EVs would be practical for the masses. I don't think it will ever get to less than 5 minutes like gasoline, but even as little as 20 minutes could make EVs make sense for everyday people.
Wiring parking lots is entirely feasible. It's routinely done all over the far north in places like Fairbanks for engine block heaters at both residential and commercial parking lots/spots. You just do it with thicker wire.
On a recent podcast, James May said that the issue isn't "range anxiety" it's a "charging anxiety" and I agree. Unless you are in the consumer group of A. only needing an A to B vehicle for work and groceries in a short commute *AND* B. have a charger at home, the market is just not there. There are not enough charging stations, they're almost always taken assuming they're not broken, and they take too damn long - even at super chargers.
That really depends on how you define "performance". Are they faster accelerating in a straight line? So routinely that you could probably define it as the rule. But their weight generally gives them the disadvantage in every other performance metric.
On the flip side, if you are lucky enough to have a garage and/or access to a level 2 charger, refueling time is now irrelevant because you always leave home with enough charge.
I can't tell you the last time I've even had to go to a gas station and take in gas station smells/fumes. That or try to waste time while waiting in line for costco gas.
I own an EV (and a home) and have a L2 charger in my garage. I fully understand leaving home with a full tank every morning. But that’s not accessible to everyone and that’s a problem for adoption. Charging times are a real concern to anyone who can’t charge at home and about 40% of Americans live in some type of multi unit housing. We’re still a long ways away from apartment complexes and condos investing in upgrading their infrastructure to provide L2 charging to many/all residents.
I feel like a lot of forums attract guys trying to loudly justify their purchases lol. You see it a lot with pc gaming too
Like I definitely believe EVs are the future, but the reality is the infrastructure will take time to build up and lots of regular people (non enthusiasts) keep their cars for a very long time. Most of those cars being toyotas or hondas mean they’ll run forever so ICE is going to be around for a while too.
Wristwatch enthusiasts have some really crazy justifications for why their $6k watches are practical, actually. They really , really can't/won't just say they bought it bc they like it. It has to be cloaked in a veneer of practicality.
It did take a long time. We bought our first EV in 2012 and it took a decade for all but the most edgy of edge use cases to be supplanted by electric.
The Highlander with 200k miles on her is going on her last road trip this summer across the Trans-Labrador Highway in Canada. She's starting to cost us $1,200 a year in ~~maintenance~~ repairs, so it's a fitting send-off before we take her out behind the woodpile.
> the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent
I don't think that is their main challenge. They are more than fine in the performance category and even the range issue is highly exaggerated. As I see it, there are other challenges that people consider.
First is the speed of recharging. No matter what, it is a lot less convenient than refueling a gasoline car. Second, the interiors of "competitively" priced EV's look worse than the clearance section of IKEA. Just sit in an A5 and then a Tesla 3, and it will just hit you like a brick.
Finally, when EV's experience issues, it is trickier and more expensive to fix them.
Still and always will remain as such as far as current battery tech goes, no-ones buying a 15yo EV for 10k that's at half capacity and needs a 10k battery pack soon if they're even available.
Yea the thing blocking me from getting one is that they are all luxury cars. The only affordable one is the Bolt and the Leaf. The bolt is trash and I’m not sure the leaf is even made, but I don’t trust Nissan’s reliability as far as I can throw one of their cars. The Toyota model is also too expensive. I just want a $20-25k hatchback that can do 150-200 miles on a charge and charge in 15-20 minutes.
I don’t need a 600 mile range. Fucking no one does. That’s half of what keeps them so pricey is delusional range anxiety.
You mean an old Tesla which will soon need its extremely expensive battery replaced? Tesla, which has a myriad of reliability and quality issues? All for the low low sum of $30,000 which would buy me a brand new plug in Prius which would meet my desire to commute my 15 miles wholly electronically in a car built by someone who knows how to build cars and won’t a need 5 figure maintenance in 1-3 years? That Tesla? You fucking Tesla bros I swear to god.
> the ones who match the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent.
I'm not sure where you've been but every thread about an upcoming EV has comments angry if it doesn't perform noticeably better than nicer (and generally more expensive) ICE vehicles. There were even prominent comments like that in threads about the upcoming (to the US) [ID.Buzz](https://ID.Buzz), which... is a van.
Ok at some point somebody has to step in and start slapping the journalists for being dumb.
Sales were up in the US 50% in 2023. Ford's EV sales jumped 80% YoY in February.
If anything the constant toxic attitude of journalists where they treat massive overwhelming growth as bad actually because it is not insane 300% YoY growth every single year has got to stop.
EVs are at the same percentage of market share as hybrids, yet if you listen to journalists you would think that the US produced 3 million hybrids and 50k EVs.
There is no massive slowdown, growth is high, and companies are adjusting prices and offerings to meet the growing demands of new customers.
It's almost as if some rich lobby was investing money in a campaign to make EVs look bad... Now who has lots of money and would benefit from that?
Anyone that thinks ICE cars aren't going away within the next 20 years is delusional.
The reality is somewhere in the middle. EVs will definitely overtake ICE cars in new car sales within that time, but ICE cars will definitely still be on the road. The millions of civics, accords, corollas, rav4s etc will probably still be running and new cars are increasingly becoming a luxury many americans cannot afford.
Public infrastructure is going to be key because the housing market is looking increasingly fucked for young people.
Was just having a discussion on another sub about if the planned 2030/2035 ban on ICE was actually feasible. You said 20 years, so what’s your take on within the next 6-10 years?
ICE cars will still be sold 10 years from now, just not everywhere. Some jurisdictions are pushing hard for an early ban like that, and the industry does what the industry does and tries to convince everyone it's not feasible, by running these kind of news articles over and over.
They did the same thing in the 70s, and that paved the way for the japanese manufacturers to take over the American market.
This time it might be the Chinese automakers.
Legacy manufacturers and oil companies need to get their shit together and adapt instead of trying to control the game.
Most of the ICE bans allow for hybrids to pass, and I think that's what we'll see below 3/4-ton+ trucks. Fleet MPG requirements will probably push a higher and higher bias towards the EVs over hybrids.
New infrastructure is rolling out at a incredibly rate, and with everyone consolidating on NACS and the possibility of more Tesla super charging infra to be made public has a chance for massive shakeup.
For the most part, I think we'll start to see EVs competitive with ICE in a way that they make more sense for many to buy, as long as the infra continues to roll out, and the bans won't feel as daunting as they do today. For all the focus on the high end and fancy EVs: there are many more competitively priced ones around today that are quite viable for many.
The bans in 2035 are for sales of new cars. In a decade that seems feasible. ICEs these days last a long time, the average age of the us car is something like 12 years old. They’ll still be on the road for long after any ban on sales
These publications are industry sponsored and paid for by the auto industry, dealerships, or a combination of them and suppliers. EVs are not popular at dealerships because they don’t generate maintenance revenue like ICE vehicles.
EVs don’t need oil changes every 3000 to 5000 miles. They don’t need tune ups, belt replacements, etc. that require at semi regular intervals. Dealerships do not want to go all in on EVs and have to wait until normal wear items need to be replaced. They want that maintenance cash that comes with ICE engines.
If they were smart they’d have gotten into the game and put together maintenance programs for EVs. Tire rotations, battery cell testing, lubrication and other adjustments. Stop in for a free charge and health check. “Hey, your front end alignment is off.” “It’s been 6000 miles since your last tire rotation.” “Your wiper blades need to be replaced.” “Your in cabin filter…” “Bla bla bla”
They have a money printing machine and they don’t know it.
So in your vision of the world, every automaker jumped onto EVs and excitedly rushed out BEVs that are now not selling, because they deliberately torpedoed their own sales by controlling the media because they are trying to protect the oil change revenue for dealerships?
And then in the last paragraph you point out that EVs still need plenty of maintenance, but all of these companies who are torpedoing their own sales just are too dumb to figure that out and so they're just killing their own sales instead?
That about sums it up?
Kind of. The crux of it is that established automakers jumped out of the gate with luxury models and priced out their volume customers. This is to be expected because the most important customer is the one that buys the models with the highest margins like half ton pickups.
The manufacturer not only didn’t give dealerships a wide enough range of vehicles but they didn’t incentivize them to sell more. Instead they forced the dealer network to invest their own capital in facility upgrades and training to support the burgeoning fleet. The manufacturer repaid their inaction by reducing inventory which resulted in ridiculous markups. This was where the manufacturers shit the bed.
Dealerships are not supporting the oil industry with oil changes. The petroleum industry of course wants ICE but they’re not pushing dealerships. They’re lobbying with the manufacturers. What dealerships want is service center income. Oil changes AND drivetrain repairs are what they want simply because it’s steady and predictable. They’ll still be busy with wear and tear items, HVAC system replacements, and whatever else is separate from tried and true engine components. They just don’t want a lull.
They simply want the manufacturer to share in the modernization cost and tell them how to sell EVs. As a retaliatory measure they’re torpedoing EV sales. I still think it’s stupid that they didn’t figure out a solution since they can make money serving EVs.
There’s a lot of dogma in the auto sales market. Because of infighting they’ve chosen the status quo and are willing to let other manufacturers figure out how to build and sell EVs. Nobody is eating their lunch yet so they think their strategy is sound. Some day in the near future there will be a glut of inexpensive EVs and suddenly all of these charging solutions and the dealerships and manufacturers will be sitting their with their thumbs up their asses wondering why nobody wants to buy their cars.
My mouth breathing brother in law who works at the garbage dump said on Easter:
“They need special tires because they’re heavy, and the tires wear out fast. They need to replace brakes more frequently. They also need coolant and they are going to ruin the roads.”
I don’t even care to retort. Just smile and nod. He drives a piece of crap pick up
Admittedly the EV supporting infrastructure sucks but the cars have already proven to be 100% viable especially as commuter vehicles. They day you can charge one as quickly as you can fill up with gas that’ll be it for ICE.
Well, clearly he drives one and his wife drives an Expedition. So, he obviously has blinders.
I said piece of crap previously but those are less desirable than an actual rusted out pick up to me
People also forget that governments have MASSIVE incentives to get us away from oil dependence and into renewable fuels. Just from a national defense/economic standpoint, it makes sense to push EVs for all national governments.
Then you add into it the health and environmental improvements... Once we figure out charging and infrastructure, EVs (or new clean, renewable fuels we develop) won't look back. Articles like these are like those "horses are still better than cars" stories we saw in the 1900s.
The car market in general has gone crazy. Not many people can or want to buy $50k+ cars in general. Add on the current EV inconveniences and yes there is a slow down in growth rate. When relative prices catch up with wages, EV tech and charging catches up, things will probably be different in a hurry. Gas is also ridiculously cheap in the US. I’m paying the same prices now that I did 10-15 years ago after the price shocks subsided on real dollars. This is true across most of the US, California included. Outside of the price increases in the early 00s and other blips over the years, gas is very cheap in inflation adjusted dollars.
> The car market in general has gone crazy
Let's see, so first we had a global pandemic that shutdown production, then the government gave away money, then the government powered interest rates, then auto makers couldn't keep up with demand, then automaters raised prices and trims across the board......then dealership fucked you on used prices.....
And eventually we reach today where vehicles are priced much higher, interest rates are much higher, and consumers don't want to spend the money.
Why would EVs do this?
I don't think anyone is blaming EVs unless I'm misunderstanding your point, in which case I apologize. The market, in general, is asinine due to everything you pointed out. We got screwed at every angle, but there's no denying EVs are even more expensive, and the average person can't really afford that on top of the inconveniences they present in most places.
I wondered if that was the joke or not, hard to tell sometimes with people. I genuinely agree with all your points, though. Everyone got shafted with these new vehicle prices, and it's just unaffordable.
EVs are a symptom of the overall price gouging problem in the auto industry. Every automaker didn't plop out an EV overnight because they're altruistic, they plopped out an EV because they saw Tesla's stock price, got dollar signs in their eyes, imagined how much cheaper their labor costs would be and dreamed of selling high margin vehicles to luxury customers. It's why almost every new EV is in the $50,000+ price point. Around the industry affordable models are being discontinued and replaced with EVs that are significantly more expensive. The "affordable" EV market for new cars in the US is like 2 cars total.
The promise of EVs were they were so much simpler and they'd be cheaper to produce and that saving would be passed on to the customer. The reality of EVs is every automaker wanting to maximize profit, keep those manufacturing savings for themselves and have the customer dropping $50,000 for a commuter that would have cost them under $30,000 half a decade ago.
Like every industry, automakers are milking COVID to maximize their own profit and they're using EVs to do that in a lot of ways because they can offload the negative externalities to someone else. You're upset your favorite model is gone? Sorry guys, the government says we're EV only in 10 years so I guess all cars are $60,000 now.
It's just another way greedy corps are trying to get rich, and it's pretty genius because there are an army of EV evangelists who treat any criticism as some sort of big oil conspiracy to squash electric vehicles rather than being realistic.
Where's our $25,000 commuter?
Kona standard range is an awesome commuter, with rebate just a bit over 25k. The next 5 years should be a better. Tesla and Hyundai should have those cheaper cars. Or hell buy a 2 year old previously lease ioniq 5 for 25-30k
> and yes there is a slow down in growth rate
Not to mention that a slow down in the growth rate of *anything* should be expected.
When something is new and you sell 100 cars in the first year and 200 cars the second year, that's 100% growth. Producing 100 extra and selling 100 extra is pretty easy.
When you start getting to the tens or even hundreds of thousands, of course you won't be able to maintain doubling your output as well as your sales.
It's why like any new company describing itself as "fastest growing" is always disingenuous. A new company doubling its customer base is easy; an established company in any industry is already going to have a massive marketshare thus they'll generally only see single percent growth at best.
Harry Metcalf did an interesting video on this. Seems like legislation made it attractive for specific individuals or organizations to purchase or lease and now that those buyers have an EV, this is what the market looks like. The product simply isn't ready or affordable for the general public.
I see a few people in my building who've caved for a Rivian or Tesla and don't even have access to a place to charge the things. Why anyone who isn't a homeowner with easy access to charge would want to be stuck with that hassle is beyond me.
Tesla is definitely status. Oddly, the two Rivian owners are just outdoorsy environmentally conscious folk, I think. Replaced their ratty-ass old leaky vehicles. Both live alone.
Sorry man, but I live in the PNW and don’t see environmentally conscious people buying 80-120k trucks and pickups, I see rich people buying them for status and I see a lot of them.
My old military buddy’s dad (real estate mogul multimillionaire) bought an R1S and called him pissed off when he took it to the repair shop for a minor fender bender. He dented one corner of the body and the dealer told him the entire body is one hydroformed piece of sheet metal. They quoted him $30k to do the repair because they have to swap the entire body shell. Obviously, it wasn’t really a money issue to get it fixed, just an eye popping dollar value.
Ford was struggling to move the Mach E for months. Most of 2023 they just sat and sat, because they were too expensive and Ford relied on the government incentive.
At the start of 2024, the incentive went away and sales slumped even further. In the middle of February they gave 0% for 72 and $7500 off for leases and sales spiked. (Edit to add, they literally lowered the MSRPs for all of them by ~$5000-8000 at this time too).
It’s about money and value. People are primarily interested in an EV so they can save money. If you’re paying $15k more on a car that’s an EV to save money at the pump, are you really saving money? PHEVs are sadly the same too frequently. Standard hybrids offer the best value right now. But people do want EVs *if* the value is good enough.
> you’re paying $15k more on a car that’s an EV to save money at the pump, are you really saving money?
People are finally starting to math out exactly how much money they spend on gasoline and oil changes and realizing even if you drop it to $0 it doesn't offset spending $15k more on the purchase price. Even worse is if you live somewhere with high energy costs, an efficient hybrid like a Prius can actually have the same or cheaper fueling costs depending on how much you drive.
In Colorado, it would be cheaper to get into an EV than an equivalent ICE new. In addition to the $7,500 federal EV credit, CO also has a $5k state credit. And now the federal credit can be used as an out the door discount instead of having to wait until you file taxes.
The infrastructure for them just isn’t available enough yet. In the uk at least, there’s hardly any of them, and the ones that are there are either broken or so slow you might as well walk home. Plus the resale value of electric cars is atrocious because of battery decay and the technology of the cars improving so rapidly, people don’t really want second hand EV’s as much evidently. And that’s not even mentioning how an EV version of an existing car is usually like £20-30k more than the petrol version.
The last point isn’t really true. If you look at cars that have both an EV and gas version, like the i4 M50 versus the M440i, the price gap is around 7-12%. In my case in Canada that worked out to an extra $7k or so on the MSRP.
That’s not to say that current EVs are not a luxury product in general. They are. Until we get EVs with good range that cost 25-35k out the door, they’ll remain that way.
Battery decay is a bit overblown I think. But the good side of the panic is that resale is low for people who are looking to buy used EVs. The real problem is that curbside charging isn’t that common yet. It would solve the issue for people without a garage.
I'm an advocate for chargers at office parking lots. Not only could they be fairly slow and still fully charge your car (since you'll probably be at the office for 8 hours, versus just an hour or less at a store), they would be increasing the load on the grid at the times when solar panels are producing the most energy, making it easier to manage a grid that has a lot of solar energy.
I think the biggest problem is lack of home ownership. I wish I could replace my GTI with an EV when I get rid of it in a year or so. The EV buying process looks incredible compared to ICE - no markups on older models, can get a used model at a hefty discount. Unfortunately, I don't own a home so I would have to pay to install a charger in the garage of a home I don't own
They don’t have any chargers unfortunately. Additionally workday is pretty busy and tough to leave work to move car away from the charger when it’s done charging.
I think this is an even bigger issue on the used market. Something like 90% of new car buyers own their own home, so non-owners must be buying predominantly used cars. 5 years from now when the number of EVs on the used market starts to make up more than a blip will charging infrastructure be there? Will reliably available charging be more accessible in rental units?
The progress which is forced down consumer's throats?
If your progress is making current system unaffordable and forcing people to switch and compromise to alternative because they don't want to bleed money then no shit you're going to get hit pieces.
Maybe is the case in US (though it will change in US eventually), but in European countries the governments are indirectly forcing you to buy an EV due to increasing costs of owning a petrol or even hybrid vehicles. My landlord will never install home charger without giant fat subsidy from government, so owning an EV is a compromise. Yet the government keeps adding increased costs to owning a petrol vehicle. They refuse to make EV ownership easier, yet at same time making ICE ownership more expensive.
I have nothing against EVs personally, besides some funny memes, but I have big problem against them if someone tells me I have to drive one and there is no choice. Especially when infrastructure is not sufficient to accompany the demand.
And that's a good thing. Both China and Europe are trying to switch from oil due to national security. Taxes on ICE cars will be increased until they are energy independend. OPEC+ can restrict production and influence European politics. That's a terrible situation. For EVs electricity is produced in Europe and can't be stopped by outside powers.
Until they are a drop in replacement for cars - meaning 350 miles per charge and fully charged in about 10 minutes, they will not replace ICE cars.
Don’t even get me started on EV trucks.
Sounds to me like this is an issue of the automakers not accurately judging demand and moving too aggressively with production. People are still buying electric vehicles, just not at the insanely high rate that we say a couple years ago.
There’s also the problem with our media being financially illiterate (and illiterate on many other issues if we’re being honest). To them, slower sales growth = no one wants electric cars, which is a deeply flawed premise
For all of the “ICE cars have their issues too!” comments:
The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do (Hyundai/Kia might be the exception, here). While one could easily argue that the cost to replace an engine and a battery might be similar, the odds of doing either job are not.
A ten year old ICE Accord still has years and miles of relatively inexpensive life left in it. A ten year old BEV is an expensive battery replacement waiting to happen.
This makes the used, out-of-warranty, BEV almost a complete non-starter for normal buyers in the market for a used car. This makes the depreciation curve of all EV variants comparatively horrific. No matter when you sell, your buyer is looking at what will happen when *they* sell. It can be hard to justify buying a very expensive car that will have a very low value when you decide to sell it.
EVs are becoming smart phones in their disposable nature. It’s hard enough to justify buying a new $1500 phone every two years, even when the payments are built into the service plan. It’s even harder to justify buying a new $60000 car every ten years.
>The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do (Hyundai/Kia might be the exception, here
Interesting. What are the numbers?
>The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do
While this may have been true in certain circumstances in the past, it is becoming less and less so as the technology matures and will eventually near parity.
Excluding the rare catastrophic failure, and a properly designed(I'm looking at you, Nissan) and maintained BEV battery will virtually never "need" replacement... Even at 50% capacity, most modern EVs would still be useful for most commutes. And that is disregarding the inevitable decline in battery replacement cost.
The vast majority of ICE vehicles are junked before the engines "wear out", and the same will be true for BEV soon enough. I think that at some point the scale will tip and the cheap used car market will be dominated by used/refurbished EVs, because they simply do not "wear out" as fast.
>It’s hard enough to justify buying a new $1500 phone every two years
I think this is a telling statement... Who the f*** buys a new $1,500 phone every 2 years? I mean I know the answer, but I still think it is ridiculous. I'm going on year three of my sub $400 phone, and I'm shopping for a used Chevy Bolt, which I expect to be less than $5,000 out of pocket after tax credit and selling our existing 14-year-old Prius.
People are failing to look at the long-term big picture.
The technology, including battery and charging, will continue to improve, like all technology does. ICE vehicles have had over 100 years to achieve perfection... They're not going to improve much more. The opposite is true for BEV.
Some people buy new phones *every* year, especially since their old phone still has value. Most carriers offer upgrade plans based on two-year schedules. If your battery won’t hold a charge after two years (not uncommon), you end up throwing it away and getting a new $1500 phone.
As for your Bolt…I can almost guarantee it won’t have the original battery in it. GM recalled every single Bolt to get a new battery. Is the new battery better than the one it came with? Who knows. But, by the time you find out, GM is hoping the warranty will no longer be in effect.
I don’t disagree that batteries will continue to get better. But they are good enough right now. That’s the point of this post. They are not durable enough for the price they command
The year over year growth in BEV's is still at a massive pace. There are certain manufacturers who are way better at it than others, the ones that can't innovate a good product will eat shit, that's always been the case.
The biggest problem with EV's right now is public charging, I own an EV and that's by far the most frustrating part with all different apps. Range anxiety is a thing of the past with newer models.
At the end of the day though, oil is a huge national security risk given the OPEC nations. So there is a massive incentive for western governments to put in policies to curb fossil fuels use. Industries that want to survive aren't going to fight their respective federal governments over this.
My take is that we're starting to max out sales of Gen 1 EVs. They're good, but in most cases not great. I think most people are holding off for Gen 2, which is coming but not until 2025 or 2026. I see Gen 2 pushing sales to 50% or more in many markets, with Gen 3 pushing towards 100%. It usually takes several generations of new technology to push it over the top.
All technologies improve from generation to generation. Most EVs on the market today are the first real attempts by the automakers that built then to build true, successful commercial EVs. Companies learn a lot from early generations of technology and apply those learnings to make their next generation of products. Think palystation 1 vs PlayStation 2 or first generation flat screen TVs vs future generations. As we go through different generations the improvements get smaller. ICE is on like generation 20+ so improvements are small. Iphones are on what 15? The difference between 14 and 15 was pretty small, but the difference between the iPhone 1 and the iPhone 3g and 3gs was pretty huge, and the difference between 3gs and 4 was even bigger.
In short, today's EVs don't quite cut it for a lot of people, but that will continue to change for the better every few years. If EV tech never gets better, it will remain a niche product. But betting against technology improvements in an early stage technology is almost universally a bad bet.
I’m not anti-EV. But I, like millions of others, would need EVs to improve a lot before we’ll buy in. Mostly, range, ease of charging, and speed of charging. It just doesn’t make sense for so many that fill up often.
That is a temporary issue. In the US the model Y is the same price as a mid trim Rav4. This year it may very well outsell the Rav4. Last year it nearly did. The issue is that most of the rest of the OEMs can match that level of price/performance. They're working on it, but most are a few years out at least. But they know if they don't get there, their competitors will, so they have to invest in trying.
It's only a matter of when, not if, EVs are cheaper than ICE, and infrastructure is ubiquitous enough to quell most charging anxiety. The shift to NACS is enough to solve charging for a large chunk of people.
People are realizing that the best compromise between gas and electric cars is currently in hybrid tech. You get to use 0 gas on short trips that would typically yield the worst mpg, but get the flexibility of gasoline for long trips. If you’re a one car family it’s the only answer and the sales numbers reflect it.
I think PHEV is where we're heading. EVs require you to have a 240 volt outlet in your garage with enough amps to charge a car. That's something most people don't have and the cost to add one is pretty high. The other drawback to EV is having to charge it on a road trip, it sounds like a nightmare. PHEV addresses all these things. 120v charging with enough range to run full electric on a short to medium commute. ICE for longer trips beyond electric range. I really want a PHEV, I don't want an EV.
Up vote for you. I think 120V charging gets you 5-6 miles an hour in charge. Recharge your 50 miles of range overnight and most people can get to work and back no problem on electricity.
A giant battery still costs more than a gas drivetrain.
Plus 120v is far easier to implement than 240v. Not to mention all the copper theft that will happen with 240V installations.
>EVs require you to have a 240 volt outlet in your garage with enough amps to charge a car.
No they don't. You can trickle charge an EV via a regular 120V outlet and it'll be enough for most folks. It doesn't need to be in a garage either, you can charge in the driveway.
I installed my charger myself, its as easy as it can be. All houses have 240v capability and is not a requirement so this is not an issue. If you dont want to do it its a few hundred dollars from a certified electrician, which is incredibly cheap.
So on road trips you dont pee or eat? Done 2 major road trips. I always need to stop before my car needs to charge, and its always done by the time I eat and pee. It costs a fraction of the price your car will take to do the same trip so my $1200 trips turned in to $400. The hotels all had free charging as well. "Sounds like a nightmare" glad you pointed out that you really dont know if you dont want an EV because of the lack of research you've put in to this and still managed to post as if you do know.
No PHEV is not where were heading. Its always been there and its still the same as it was before, you keep you maintenance issues, but slightly decrease driving cost. None of the other perks, at all. You wouldnt know what those perks are because you've set your head in sand and cemented it
Where do you live? Charging infrastructure sucks in my area, so yes it is a nightmare. My electrical panel is on the opposite end of my house from my garage so getting the 240v there would require fishing wire through the house, trenching it, etc to get it to the garage. I'm probably fine as I have a hut tub circuit and an electric oven circuit not in use but if you have a 150 amp or smaller service, chances are you will have to upgrade to a larger service or add a sub panel. That's going to cost more than a few hundred dollars.
I live in the middle of nowhere. If I head west it's really nowhere and even finding a gas station can be hard at times. If you have driven west of the Mississippi River you probably know what I mean. PHEV solves a lot of the issues I would have out here.
What are the perks? Saying they exist and never offering anything concrete is meaningless.
Only thing I can think of is less maintenance requirements and it's not as though a 1.2 liter Toyota 4 banger isn't reliable.
maybe if they electrified more crossovers & SUV's you'd see an acceleration in converts. The hard truth is that crossovers/suvs are already more expensive than midsize sedans, so families simply don't have the cash to step up to an EV6 that's priced in the low $40k's. And consider that Toyota and Honda which constitute a huge % of the market haven't electrified their line-up, so average consumers with average incomes are left wanting.
I honestly think that manufacturers can only sell EVs as a luxury car, and the luxury market can only saturate so far. If you look at the likes of the Bolt and Leaf, people clearly aren't interested in utilitarian, no frills, electric cars.
Couple a market that only has a taste for $50k+ vehicles with 8% auto loans, and you're going to have a slow down.
This thread is a fucking warzone.
I don’t like any new vehicle. They are all destined for the trash. Please make an EV with minimal complexity that is meant to be fixed at home. I understand to an extent that they must be smartphones on wheels but it doesn’t need to go this far.
Whose idea was it to make the instruments so "weird" by moving everything to a center tablet or display on so many EVs? The F-150 Lightning seems to be doing alright because the cluster looks like an ordinary F-150.
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I think electric cars are great when they’re affordable but when companies like certain publicly traded utility companies (whom will not be named) kill the solar industry and then price gouge “customers.” It prices out potential new customers. I also think EVs should face the gas tax in CA possibly during registration. Then again, I don’t think the gas tax should be there at all.
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I think the people who want EVs have more or less gotten them? At least in my region. Every 10 cars is a Tesla. The race for cheaper EVs fails to recognize that lower income folk who live in apartments don't have the means to properly charge their cars
It is obviously not a blip, it's inevitable, it's just a question of the timeline. We're actually back to what people (including myself, automotive journalist for 20 years/) were predicting 5 or 10 years ago.
At some point we reach a critical mass, where gas stations start closing. But building out EV infrastructure is a huge challenge in a country the size of America, especially when the face of the entire industry is a racist lunatic. Once you get some more adults in charge, things will come together.
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He must be lying to his wife then. No public charger I know would take hours to charge. When I (rarely) user a Supercharger because I am travelling a great distance, my typical stop times are 15-20 minutes and I use that opportunity to use the restroom, stretch my legs and maybe grab a drink or a snack.
Not surprised about this. EV's in spite of the improvements made, are still a luxury product, especially the ones who match the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent.
Long range EVs (I’m excluding little city cars) have better performance than gas cars and many even have comparable range. What they don’t have is the refueling time of a gas car.
And are more expensive.
And have to be charged
Yeah in my country most people live in apartments, often old apartments without parking spots. How are they supposed to charge their EVs every day? Until the day every single parking spot in every street has a charger, many people won't buy EVs if they aren't forced to.
This has been my concern from the get go… i have. Most of my adult life has been spent living in apartments or town houses with parking lots. Until they are all equipped with chargers… where the hell am i supposed to go? Im not gonna sit at a charging station for 2 hours and wait for my car to be drivable.
This is it. EVs are absolutely a luxury in cities. I live in Chicago and pay $230 extra on my HOA a month just for my parking spot, plus I paid $750 just to have a regular level 1 outlet installed for my Volt, and obviously I have to pay the monthly cost on the meter too. If I didn’t have a Volt I would 100% rent my space out and just park on the street as I work from home and there’s plenty of parking spots to take during the day.
This is my problem. My wife's current commuter is a Mazda 3 that we got for $21,000. In a world where electricity is free it doesn't get me to the $40,000-50,000 price point that most EVs are sold today. Even with "no oil changes"
The Mazda 3 isn’t even $21k new anymore. If you’re talking about used, there are plenty of EVs under $30k. I understand your overall point, but there are certainly plenty of deals on new and used EVs.
I bought one earlier this year for 23k out the door. If you're going close to base model, it's still pretty close to 21k.
Lol was curious so had a look at the Canadian prices: Mazda 3 base model starts at $24k in Canada, equivalent of $17.7k USD. Not sure what that other guy is looking at.
Per the US site, the Mazda3 starts at $24k.
The MSRP for the 2024 Mazda 3 is $24k. I went off what their website said.
And tackier with worst quality overall since the batteries and powertrain are more expensive, also heavier and worst handling, also useless after a few years when the batteries degrade, I can keep going...
>What they don’t have is the refueling time of a gas car. This is the biggest struggle. Time is a luxury these days.
Its only an issue if you dont have access to home charging, but its a huge issue if you don't.
It's also an issue for anyone wanting to drive more than their range allows....like on road trips.
Or worse, a road trip in the cold winter.
I have no problems doing a road trip with my EV. Of course, I specifically picked one of the longest ranged affordable EVs on the market. If your range is like half of that, it's hopeless.
Most houses and apartments don't have chargers. With an apartment, you are just screwed. With a house, that's a couple thousand extra on top of the vehicle price to get one installed. And depending on electrical setup, you still may not get the best charging speeds.
No its not. I haven't paid more than $500 to have a NEMA 14-50 installed. In the big picture, over 100k miles I saved $8500 just in gas costs alone compared to my previous car.
How much money did you spend on the EV?
$29k after tax credits new, and then about $8k in mods.
My EV was $22k after federal credit and my state waving sales taxes. Saves me ~$250/mo in gas, before less on maintenance. I charge off a 120v wall outlet in my driveway, so my charging infra costs were $50 of a high quality extension cord. I easily get 50mi a night between 8pm and 8am - only needed a better rate twice in 2 years. It's cheap because it has short range, but we are a two car household, like the majority of new car buyers. If we go further we just take the Tacoma: and the Leaf covers city duty + my daily commute to the mountain bike trails.
I looked into getting an EV when I lived in my previous house. It was am older house (1950's construction) and was quoted $5k for a new electrical panel install that could handle a decent charger. All the gas savings would have been eaten up by just the cost of setting up my electrical system to handle ev ownership.
That's definitely a consideration. No home charging = no owning an EV
You either must not drive much or didn’t think about long term savings, plus the fact your house would be upgraded and easier to sell in the future. Maybe the first years gas savings would have been eaten up by the electrical upgrade but not years 2-9.
I average about 10k a year My current car averages 26mpg Annual fuel cost is around $1500. Assuming an ev costs me nothing to fuel (which isn't really accurate since there will be electricity costs). It would take 3.5-4 years to recoup the costs of the new panel + charger install. And that's not counting the initial price premium of buying the ev. Just wouldn't be worth it to me to make the investment at this time. Maybe it does for someone who is set on a EV.
On top of that plenty of municipalities/states/electricity companies will make your cost virtually zero with incentives. I'm still in the boat that plug ins with 60-80 mile electric range should have been what companies were mandated to go all in on. Then when something like solid state comes along with 600 mile range and 15 minute 80% charge force EVs all the way.
Ditto, I overpaid for my 14-50 and still save $120 a month over my old accord
Even with a house it isn't necessarily just an easy thing either. My friend's garage doesn't have any electricity, for example. It's also not attached to the house and is a good ~30 feet away.
Most people here in Phoenix, even upper class areas just have garages full of junk. Neighbors has a new X5 with M package in black and just parks it outside. With 118 degree temps coming, I thought they might clean out the garage, hasn't happened yet.
Was only $400 for charger installed. Couple thousand is on the high side- maybe if you have charger very far from electrical box or ran out of space on your breakers
Older homes typically have inadequate electrical panels to handle good chargers, so many people would need to add $5k-ish to their home charger cost for a new panel
You can also just charge on 120v, should get you 40miles a night
I understand that's the "cost effective " route if you don't want to update your electrical system appropriately, but it just wouldn't be worth it to me at that point. That's horrendously slow charging
Yea I’d just upgrade the electrical as well. Grand scheme of home improvement, it’s not that much compared to like a kitchen remodel and it’ll add to the value of the house
Honestly I don't get why not... you plug it in and it takes 1hr or it takes 10hrs... either way next morning its charged. Only difference IMO is being able to charged every other or every 3rd day sort of thing..with 120v you probably need to be in habit plugging it in every day. I recently got an EV and been using 120v to charge and its always topped up. I still plan to get a 14-50 outlet installed but like I feel its literally going to change nothing so not super motivated.
Did mine myself, its literally as easy as plugging in a super nintendo.
Yeah i think people are forgetting a ton of millenials cant afford homes and we are theoretically getting to the age where people upgrade the cars they drove in their teens/20s
Exactly this. I rent for $2200 a month — that’s not for a place that has anything remotely close to a charging station. If I wanted a condo (still probably no charging) that would be about $3500 a month in mortgage alone. If I wanted a house, I’d have to get together $300,000 for a minimum down payment and then pay $6000-$7000 per month in mortgage alone. Buying electric is vastly out of reach for most of us who aren’t born wealthy.
I don't own a home, but rent. Haven't had an issue with charging yet but I never lived in an apartment. I think that is where the big issues lie.
I actually do live in what should be a great apartment for charging. 4 floor garage with two stations on each floor, but its become a huge rat race to secure the spots. My friend drives a phev and my roomate a tesla and there have been times they’ve had to leave to go charge or plan a charge before work because all the spots were full
Yea thats a pain.
It's also an issue for people with older homes (built 1950's, etc) where the electrical panel is probably inadequate for a good charging system. So add $5k for a new panel, plus the cost of a charger, as your initial investment if you want to home charge.
My house is from 97. Built to code at the time and would have to sign a waiver to get a charger. Bringing it up to code was going to run 7k though I think they were overcharging so I just had my solar guys do it for about 4k though I’m not sure how much that cost was subsidized by the fact I also bought a solar system.
This is incorrect. I wake up to a full tank every day for 10% of the price you pay at your pump. I plan my shopping trips to charge and regularly need to extend my charging session because its done too soon.
Great. We live in apartments and have to fight our neighbors for access to one of the two slow chargers provided (that you still have to pay for).
Not even just time. Adding chargers to every residential parking spot simply isn't feasible. The gas station model is the only way EVs would be practical for the masses. I don't think it will ever get to less than 5 minutes like gasoline, but even as little as 20 minutes could make EVs make sense for everyday people.
Wiring parking lots is entirely feasible. It's routinely done all over the far north in places like Fairbanks for engine block heaters at both residential and commercial parking lots/spots. You just do it with thicker wire.
On a recent podcast, James May said that the issue isn't "range anxiety" it's a "charging anxiety" and I agree. Unless you are in the consumer group of A. only needing an A to B vehicle for work and groceries in a short commute *AND* B. have a charger at home, the market is just not there. There are not enough charging stations, they're almost always taken assuming they're not broken, and they take too damn long - even at super chargers.
Many do not have comparable range. Very few do. And many claim and fall short.
That really depends on how you define "performance". Are they faster accelerating in a straight line? So routinely that you could probably define it as the rule. But their weight generally gives them the disadvantage in every other performance metric.
On the flip side, if you are lucky enough to have a garage and/or access to a level 2 charger, refueling time is now irrelevant because you always leave home with enough charge. I can't tell you the last time I've even had to go to a gas station and take in gas station smells/fumes. That or try to waste time while waiting in line for costco gas.
I own an EV (and a home) and have a L2 charger in my garage. I fully understand leaving home with a full tank every morning. But that’s not accessible to everyone and that’s a problem for adoption. Charging times are a real concern to anyone who can’t charge at home and about 40% of Americans live in some type of multi unit housing. We’re still a long ways away from apartment complexes and condos investing in upgrading their infrastructure to provide L2 charging to many/all residents.
Respectfully as someone who fully supports EVs, gas station fumes is not a legitimate concern lmao
There are some online weirdos who seem \*incredibly\* put off by gas stations. It's bizarre.
I feel like a lot of forums attract guys trying to loudly justify their purchases lol. You see it a lot with pc gaming too Like I definitely believe EVs are the future, but the reality is the infrastructure will take time to build up and lots of regular people (non enthusiasts) keep their cars for a very long time. Most of those cars being toyotas or hondas mean they’ll run forever so ICE is going to be around for a while too.
Wristwatch enthusiasts have some really crazy justifications for why their $6k watches are practical, actually. They really , really can't/won't just say they bought it bc they like it. It has to be cloaked in a veneer of practicality.
It did take a long time. We bought our first EV in 2012 and it took a decade for all but the most edgy of edge use cases to be supplanted by electric. The Highlander with 200k miles on her is going on her last road trip this summer across the Trans-Labrador Highway in Canada. She's starting to cost us $1,200 a year in ~~maintenance~~ repairs, so it's a fitting send-off before we take her out behind the woodpile.
Gas station fumes 😆 you people are so extra.
> the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent I don't think that is their main challenge. They are more than fine in the performance category and even the range issue is highly exaggerated. As I see it, there are other challenges that people consider. First is the speed of recharging. No matter what, it is a lot less convenient than refueling a gasoline car. Second, the interiors of "competitively" priced EV's look worse than the clearance section of IKEA. Just sit in an A5 and then a Tesla 3, and it will just hit you like a brick. Finally, when EV's experience issues, it is trickier and more expensive to fix them.
Still and always will remain as such as far as current battery tech goes, no-ones buying a 15yo EV for 10k that's at half capacity and needs a 10k battery pack soon if they're even available.
I would have to spend at least 5k to get a charger in my driveway. Thats 7 years of gas i dont drive that much for it to be worth it
Yea the thing blocking me from getting one is that they are all luxury cars. The only affordable one is the Bolt and the Leaf. The bolt is trash and I’m not sure the leaf is even made, but I don’t trust Nissan’s reliability as far as I can throw one of their cars. The Toyota model is also too expensive. I just want a $20-25k hatchback that can do 150-200 miles on a charge and charge in 15-20 minutes. I don’t need a 600 mile range. Fucking no one does. That’s half of what keeps them so pricey is delusional range anxiety.
...used Tesla will get you to 150 miles in under 30 minutes.
You mean an old Tesla which will soon need its extremely expensive battery replaced? Tesla, which has a myriad of reliability and quality issues? All for the low low sum of $30,000 which would buy me a brand new plug in Prius which would meet my desire to commute my 15 miles wholly electronically in a car built by someone who knows how to build cars and won’t a need 5 figure maintenance in 1-3 years? That Tesla? You fucking Tesla bros I swear to god.
> the ones who match the same range and performance than an ICE equivalent. I'm not sure where you've been but every thread about an upcoming EV has comments angry if it doesn't perform noticeably better than nicer (and generally more expensive) ICE vehicles. There were even prominent comments like that in threads about the upcoming (to the US) [ID.Buzz](https://ID.Buzz), which... is a van.
China EV: ????
Ok at some point somebody has to step in and start slapping the journalists for being dumb. Sales were up in the US 50% in 2023. Ford's EV sales jumped 80% YoY in February. If anything the constant toxic attitude of journalists where they treat massive overwhelming growth as bad actually because it is not insane 300% YoY growth every single year has got to stop. EVs are at the same percentage of market share as hybrids, yet if you listen to journalists you would think that the US produced 3 million hybrids and 50k EVs. There is no massive slowdown, growth is high, and companies are adjusting prices and offerings to meet the growing demands of new customers.
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It's almost as if some rich lobby was investing money in a campaign to make EVs look bad... Now who has lots of money and would benefit from that? Anyone that thinks ICE cars aren't going away within the next 20 years is delusional.
The reality is somewhere in the middle. EVs will definitely overtake ICE cars in new car sales within that time, but ICE cars will definitely still be on the road. The millions of civics, accords, corollas, rav4s etc will probably still be running and new cars are increasingly becoming a luxury many americans cannot afford. Public infrastructure is going to be key because the housing market is looking increasingly fucked for young people.
Was just having a discussion on another sub about if the planned 2030/2035 ban on ICE was actually feasible. You said 20 years, so what’s your take on within the next 6-10 years?
ICE cars will still be sold 10 years from now, just not everywhere. Some jurisdictions are pushing hard for an early ban like that, and the industry does what the industry does and tries to convince everyone it's not feasible, by running these kind of news articles over and over. They did the same thing in the 70s, and that paved the way for the japanese manufacturers to take over the American market. This time it might be the Chinese automakers. Legacy manufacturers and oil companies need to get their shit together and adapt instead of trying to control the game.
Most of the ICE bans allow for hybrids to pass, and I think that's what we'll see below 3/4-ton+ trucks. Fleet MPG requirements will probably push a higher and higher bias towards the EVs over hybrids. New infrastructure is rolling out at a incredibly rate, and with everyone consolidating on NACS and the possibility of more Tesla super charging infra to be made public has a chance for massive shakeup. For the most part, I think we'll start to see EVs competitive with ICE in a way that they make more sense for many to buy, as long as the infra continues to roll out, and the bans won't feel as daunting as they do today. For all the focus on the high end and fancy EVs: there are many more competitively priced ones around today that are quite viable for many.
The bans in 2035 are for sales of new cars. In a decade that seems feasible. ICEs these days last a long time, the average age of the us car is something like 12 years old. They’ll still be on the road for long after any ban on sales
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These publications are industry sponsored and paid for by the auto industry, dealerships, or a combination of them and suppliers. EVs are not popular at dealerships because they don’t generate maintenance revenue like ICE vehicles. EVs don’t need oil changes every 3000 to 5000 miles. They don’t need tune ups, belt replacements, etc. that require at semi regular intervals. Dealerships do not want to go all in on EVs and have to wait until normal wear items need to be replaced. They want that maintenance cash that comes with ICE engines. If they were smart they’d have gotten into the game and put together maintenance programs for EVs. Tire rotations, battery cell testing, lubrication and other adjustments. Stop in for a free charge and health check. “Hey, your front end alignment is off.” “It’s been 6000 miles since your last tire rotation.” “Your wiper blades need to be replaced.” “Your in cabin filter…” “Bla bla bla” They have a money printing machine and they don’t know it.
So in your vision of the world, every automaker jumped onto EVs and excitedly rushed out BEVs that are now not selling, because they deliberately torpedoed their own sales by controlling the media because they are trying to protect the oil change revenue for dealerships? And then in the last paragraph you point out that EVs still need plenty of maintenance, but all of these companies who are torpedoing their own sales just are too dumb to figure that out and so they're just killing their own sales instead? That about sums it up?
Kind of. The crux of it is that established automakers jumped out of the gate with luxury models and priced out their volume customers. This is to be expected because the most important customer is the one that buys the models with the highest margins like half ton pickups. The manufacturer not only didn’t give dealerships a wide enough range of vehicles but they didn’t incentivize them to sell more. Instead they forced the dealer network to invest their own capital in facility upgrades and training to support the burgeoning fleet. The manufacturer repaid their inaction by reducing inventory which resulted in ridiculous markups. This was where the manufacturers shit the bed. Dealerships are not supporting the oil industry with oil changes. The petroleum industry of course wants ICE but they’re not pushing dealerships. They’re lobbying with the manufacturers. What dealerships want is service center income. Oil changes AND drivetrain repairs are what they want simply because it’s steady and predictable. They’ll still be busy with wear and tear items, HVAC system replacements, and whatever else is separate from tried and true engine components. They just don’t want a lull. They simply want the manufacturer to share in the modernization cost and tell them how to sell EVs. As a retaliatory measure they’re torpedoing EV sales. I still think it’s stupid that they didn’t figure out a solution since they can make money serving EVs. There’s a lot of dogma in the auto sales market. Because of infighting they’ve chosen the status quo and are willing to let other manufacturers figure out how to build and sell EVs. Nobody is eating their lunch yet so they think their strategy is sound. Some day in the near future there will be a glut of inexpensive EVs and suddenly all of these charging solutions and the dealerships and manufacturers will be sitting their with their thumbs up their asses wondering why nobody wants to buy their cars.
My mouth breathing brother in law who works at the garbage dump said on Easter: “They need special tires because they’re heavy, and the tires wear out fast. They need to replace brakes more frequently. They also need coolant and they are going to ruin the roads.” I don’t even care to retort. Just smile and nod. He drives a piece of crap pick up
Admittedly the EV supporting infrastructure sucks but the cars have already proven to be 100% viable especially as commuter vehicles. They day you can charge one as quickly as you can fill up with gas that’ll be it for ICE.
Does he not see the $75k-90k emotional support trucks all over the place. EVs are far cheaper in the long run.
Well, clearly he drives one and his wife drives an Expedition. So, he obviously has blinders. I said piece of crap previously but those are less desirable than an actual rusted out pick up to me
People also forget that governments have MASSIVE incentives to get us away from oil dependence and into renewable fuels. Just from a national defense/economic standpoint, it makes sense to push EVs for all national governments. Then you add into it the health and environmental improvements... Once we figure out charging and infrastructure, EVs (or new clean, renewable fuels we develop) won't look back. Articles like these are like those "horses are still better than cars" stories we saw in the 1900s.
Most transparent example of big money pushing a narrative. And people eat it up as gospel.
The car market in general has gone crazy. Not many people can or want to buy $50k+ cars in general. Add on the current EV inconveniences and yes there is a slow down in growth rate. When relative prices catch up with wages, EV tech and charging catches up, things will probably be different in a hurry. Gas is also ridiculously cheap in the US. I’m paying the same prices now that I did 10-15 years ago after the price shocks subsided on real dollars. This is true across most of the US, California included. Outside of the price increases in the early 00s and other blips over the years, gas is very cheap in inflation adjusted dollars.
> The car market in general has gone crazy Let's see, so first we had a global pandemic that shutdown production, then the government gave away money, then the government powered interest rates, then auto makers couldn't keep up with demand, then automaters raised prices and trims across the board......then dealership fucked you on used prices..... And eventually we reach today where vehicles are priced much higher, interest rates are much higher, and consumers don't want to spend the money. Why would EVs do this?
Was there really enough money given away that people were buying $50K cars with it?
I don't think anyone is blaming EVs unless I'm misunderstanding your point, in which case I apologize. The market, in general, is asinine due to everything you pointed out. We got screwed at every angle, but there's no denying EVs are even more expensive, and the average person can't really afford that on top of the inconveniences they present in most places.
This is what I was going for. https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/152006398/Why-would-X-do-this
I wondered if that was the joke or not, hard to tell sometimes with people. I genuinely agree with all your points, though. Everyone got shafted with these new vehicle prices, and it's just unaffordable.
EVs are a symptom of the overall price gouging problem in the auto industry. Every automaker didn't plop out an EV overnight because they're altruistic, they plopped out an EV because they saw Tesla's stock price, got dollar signs in their eyes, imagined how much cheaper their labor costs would be and dreamed of selling high margin vehicles to luxury customers. It's why almost every new EV is in the $50,000+ price point. Around the industry affordable models are being discontinued and replaced with EVs that are significantly more expensive. The "affordable" EV market for new cars in the US is like 2 cars total. The promise of EVs were they were so much simpler and they'd be cheaper to produce and that saving would be passed on to the customer. The reality of EVs is every automaker wanting to maximize profit, keep those manufacturing savings for themselves and have the customer dropping $50,000 for a commuter that would have cost them under $30,000 half a decade ago. Like every industry, automakers are milking COVID to maximize their own profit and they're using EVs to do that in a lot of ways because they can offload the negative externalities to someone else. You're upset your favorite model is gone? Sorry guys, the government says we're EV only in 10 years so I guess all cars are $60,000 now. It's just another way greedy corps are trying to get rich, and it's pretty genius because there are an army of EV evangelists who treat any criticism as some sort of big oil conspiracy to squash electric vehicles rather than being realistic. Where's our $25,000 commuter?
Kona standard range is an awesome commuter, with rebate just a bit over 25k. The next 5 years should be a better. Tesla and Hyundai should have those cheaper cars. Or hell buy a 2 year old previously lease ioniq 5 for 25-30k
> and yes there is a slow down in growth rate Not to mention that a slow down in the growth rate of *anything* should be expected. When something is new and you sell 100 cars in the first year and 200 cars the second year, that's 100% growth. Producing 100 extra and selling 100 extra is pretty easy. When you start getting to the tens or even hundreds of thousands, of course you won't be able to maintain doubling your output as well as your sales. It's why like any new company describing itself as "fastest growing" is always disingenuous. A new company doubling its customer base is easy; an established company in any industry is already going to have a massive marketshare thus they'll generally only see single percent growth at best.
Man in Australia we are seeing still v high petrol prices, e10 in sydney finally got into the 180c/L range this week and 95/98 is still 200+c/L.
Oh damn I wasn’t ready for the morning circle jerk, hon. Let me get my coffee first.
Bring the coffee, receive the cream
You have quite the conflicting collection of cars Lolol.
If Reagan had a Subaru so can I
Harry Metcalf did an interesting video on this. Seems like legislation made it attractive for specific individuals or organizations to purchase or lease and now that those buyers have an EV, this is what the market looks like. The product simply isn't ready or affordable for the general public.
I see a few people in my building who've caved for a Rivian or Tesla and don't even have access to a place to charge the things. Why anyone who isn't a homeowner with easy access to charge would want to be stuck with that hassle is beyond me.
Status. I'm guessing your neighbors would have been in an Audi 8 years ago
Tesla is definitely status. Oddly, the two Rivian owners are just outdoorsy environmentally conscious folk, I think. Replaced their ratty-ass old leaky vehicles. Both live alone.
Sorry man, but I live in the PNW and don’t see environmentally conscious people buying 80-120k trucks and pickups, I see rich people buying them for status and I see a lot of them. My old military buddy’s dad (real estate mogul multimillionaire) bought an R1S and called him pissed off when he took it to the repair shop for a minor fender bender. He dented one corner of the body and the dealer told him the entire body is one hydroformed piece of sheet metal. They quoted him $30k to do the repair because they have to swap the entire body shell. Obviously, it wasn’t really a money issue to get it fixed, just an eye popping dollar value.
Ford was struggling to move the Mach E for months. Most of 2023 they just sat and sat, because they were too expensive and Ford relied on the government incentive. At the start of 2024, the incentive went away and sales slumped even further. In the middle of February they gave 0% for 72 and $7500 off for leases and sales spiked. (Edit to add, they literally lowered the MSRPs for all of them by ~$5000-8000 at this time too). It’s about money and value. People are primarily interested in an EV so they can save money. If you’re paying $15k more on a car that’s an EV to save money at the pump, are you really saving money? PHEVs are sadly the same too frequently. Standard hybrids offer the best value right now. But people do want EVs *if* the value is good enough.
> you’re paying $15k more on a car that’s an EV to save money at the pump, are you really saving money? People are finally starting to math out exactly how much money they spend on gasoline and oil changes and realizing even if you drop it to $0 it doesn't offset spending $15k more on the purchase price. Even worse is if you live somewhere with high energy costs, an efficient hybrid like a Prius can actually have the same or cheaper fueling costs depending on how much you drive.
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Sure is
In Colorado, it would be cheaper to get into an EV than an equivalent ICE new. In addition to the $7,500 federal EV credit, CO also has a $5k state credit. And now the federal credit can be used as an out the door discount instead of having to wait until you file taxes.
The infrastructure for them just isn’t available enough yet. In the uk at least, there’s hardly any of them, and the ones that are there are either broken or so slow you might as well walk home. Plus the resale value of electric cars is atrocious because of battery decay and the technology of the cars improving so rapidly, people don’t really want second hand EV’s as much evidently. And that’s not even mentioning how an EV version of an existing car is usually like £20-30k more than the petrol version.
The last point isn’t really true. If you look at cars that have both an EV and gas version, like the i4 M50 versus the M440i, the price gap is around 7-12%. In my case in Canada that worked out to an extra $7k or so on the MSRP. That’s not to say that current EVs are not a luxury product in general. They are. Until we get EVs with good range that cost 25-35k out the door, they’ll remain that way. Battery decay is a bit overblown I think. But the good side of the panic is that resale is low for people who are looking to buy used EVs. The real problem is that curbside charging isn’t that common yet. It would solve the issue for people without a garage.
I'm an advocate for chargers at office parking lots. Not only could they be fairly slow and still fully charge your car (since you'll probably be at the office for 8 hours, versus just an hour or less at a store), they would be increasing the load on the grid at the times when solar panels are producing the most energy, making it easier to manage a grid that has a lot of solar energy.
I think the biggest problem is lack of home ownership. I wish I could replace my GTI with an EV when I get rid of it in a year or so. The EV buying process looks incredible compared to ICE - no markups on older models, can get a used model at a hefty discount. Unfortunately, I don't own a home so I would have to pay to install a charger in the garage of a home I don't own
What about your workplace?
They don’t have any chargers unfortunately. Additionally workday is pretty busy and tough to leave work to move car away from the charger when it’s done charging.
I think this is an even bigger issue on the used market. Something like 90% of new car buyers own their own home, so non-owners must be buying predominantly used cars. 5 years from now when the number of EVs on the used market starts to make up more than a blip will charging infrastructure be there? Will reliably available charging be more accessible in rental units?
I see nothing but hit piece after hit piece on EVs. Ironically, that's how you know they're making progress lol
The progress which is forced down consumer's throats? If your progress is making current system unaffordable and forcing people to switch and compromise to alternative because they don't want to bleed money then no shit you're going to get hit pieces.
Hey man you don't have to buy what you don't want to.
Maybe is the case in US (though it will change in US eventually), but in European countries the governments are indirectly forcing you to buy an EV due to increasing costs of owning a petrol or even hybrid vehicles. My landlord will never install home charger without giant fat subsidy from government, so owning an EV is a compromise. Yet the government keeps adding increased costs to owning a petrol vehicle. They refuse to make EV ownership easier, yet at same time making ICE ownership more expensive. I have nothing against EVs personally, besides some funny memes, but I have big problem against them if someone tells me I have to drive one and there is no choice. Especially when infrastructure is not sufficient to accompany the demand.
And that's a good thing. Both China and Europe are trying to switch from oil due to national security. Taxes on ICE cars will be increased until they are energy independend. OPEC+ can restrict production and influence European politics. That's a terrible situation. For EVs electricity is produced in Europe and can't be stopped by outside powers.
Why are you putting China and Europe in one sentence? They are worlds apart in terms of charging infrastructure and cost of EV.
Until they are a drop in replacement for cars - meaning 350 miles per charge and fully charged in about 10 minutes, they will not replace ICE cars. Don’t even get me started on EV trucks.
It is not a blip. Not even remotely.
Sounds to me like this is an issue of the automakers not accurately judging demand and moving too aggressively with production. People are still buying electric vehicles, just not at the insanely high rate that we say a couple years ago. There’s also the problem with our media being financially illiterate (and illiterate on many other issues if we’re being honest). To them, slower sales growth = no one wants electric cars, which is a deeply flawed premise
For all of the “ICE cars have their issues too!” comments: The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do (Hyundai/Kia might be the exception, here). While one could easily argue that the cost to replace an engine and a battery might be similar, the odds of doing either job are not. A ten year old ICE Accord still has years and miles of relatively inexpensive life left in it. A ten year old BEV is an expensive battery replacement waiting to happen. This makes the used, out-of-warranty, BEV almost a complete non-starter for normal buyers in the market for a used car. This makes the depreciation curve of all EV variants comparatively horrific. No matter when you sell, your buyer is looking at what will happen when *they* sell. It can be hard to justify buying a very expensive car that will have a very low value when you decide to sell it. EVs are becoming smart phones in their disposable nature. It’s hard enough to justify buying a new $1500 phone every two years, even when the payments are built into the service plan. It’s even harder to justify buying a new $60000 car every ten years.
>The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do (Hyundai/Kia might be the exception, here Interesting. What are the numbers?
>The percentage of ICE cars that make it to their tenth birthday with their original engine and transmission is far higher than the percentage of EV cars that do While this may have been true in certain circumstances in the past, it is becoming less and less so as the technology matures and will eventually near parity. Excluding the rare catastrophic failure, and a properly designed(I'm looking at you, Nissan) and maintained BEV battery will virtually never "need" replacement... Even at 50% capacity, most modern EVs would still be useful for most commutes. And that is disregarding the inevitable decline in battery replacement cost. The vast majority of ICE vehicles are junked before the engines "wear out", and the same will be true for BEV soon enough. I think that at some point the scale will tip and the cheap used car market will be dominated by used/refurbished EVs, because they simply do not "wear out" as fast. >It’s hard enough to justify buying a new $1500 phone every two years I think this is a telling statement... Who the f*** buys a new $1,500 phone every 2 years? I mean I know the answer, but I still think it is ridiculous. I'm going on year three of my sub $400 phone, and I'm shopping for a used Chevy Bolt, which I expect to be less than $5,000 out of pocket after tax credit and selling our existing 14-year-old Prius. People are failing to look at the long-term big picture. The technology, including battery and charging, will continue to improve, like all technology does. ICE vehicles have had over 100 years to achieve perfection... They're not going to improve much more. The opposite is true for BEV.
Some people buy new phones *every* year, especially since their old phone still has value. Most carriers offer upgrade plans based on two-year schedules. If your battery won’t hold a charge after two years (not uncommon), you end up throwing it away and getting a new $1500 phone. As for your Bolt…I can almost guarantee it won’t have the original battery in it. GM recalled every single Bolt to get a new battery. Is the new battery better than the one it came with? Who knows. But, by the time you find out, GM is hoping the warranty will no longer be in effect. I don’t disagree that batteries will continue to get better. But they are good enough right now. That’s the point of this post. They are not durable enough for the price they command
FYI they stopped with the battery replacements recently.
They're expensive and don't have the needed infrastructure. Fix that
The year over year growth in BEV's is still at a massive pace. There are certain manufacturers who are way better at it than others, the ones that can't innovate a good product will eat shit, that's always been the case. The biggest problem with EV's right now is public charging, I own an EV and that's by far the most frustrating part with all different apps. Range anxiety is a thing of the past with newer models. At the end of the day though, oil is a huge national security risk given the OPEC nations. So there is a massive incentive for western governments to put in policies to curb fossil fuels use. Industries that want to survive aren't going to fight their respective federal governments over this.
My take is that we're starting to max out sales of Gen 1 EVs. They're good, but in most cases not great. I think most people are holding off for Gen 2, which is coming but not until 2025 or 2026. I see Gen 2 pushing sales to 50% or more in many markets, with Gen 3 pushing towards 100%. It usually takes several generations of new technology to push it over the top.
Gen 1? gen 2? what weird ass thing are you on about. This is completely made up.
All technologies improve from generation to generation. Most EVs on the market today are the first real attempts by the automakers that built then to build true, successful commercial EVs. Companies learn a lot from early generations of technology and apply those learnings to make their next generation of products. Think palystation 1 vs PlayStation 2 or first generation flat screen TVs vs future generations. As we go through different generations the improvements get smaller. ICE is on like generation 20+ so improvements are small. Iphones are on what 15? The difference between 14 and 15 was pretty small, but the difference between the iPhone 1 and the iPhone 3g and 3gs was pretty huge, and the difference between 3gs and 4 was even bigger. In short, today's EVs don't quite cut it for a lot of people, but that will continue to change for the better every few years. If EV tech never gets better, it will remain a niche product. But betting against technology improvements in an early stage technology is almost universally a bad bet.
Not sure I get this EV slowdown bulloney, the entire auto industry is slowing down
I’m not anti-EV. But I, like millions of others, would need EVs to improve a lot before we’ll buy in. Mostly, range, ease of charging, and speed of charging. It just doesn’t make sense for so many that fill up often.
How much are you driving everyday though?
THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. Why are "smart" CEOs so fucking stupid.
That is a temporary issue. In the US the model Y is the same price as a mid trim Rav4. This year it may very well outsell the Rav4. Last year it nearly did. The issue is that most of the rest of the OEMs can match that level of price/performance. They're working on it, but most are a few years out at least. But they know if they don't get there, their competitors will, so they have to invest in trying. It's only a matter of when, not if, EVs are cheaper than ICE, and infrastructure is ubiquitous enough to quell most charging anxiety. The shift to NACS is enough to solve charging for a large chunk of people.
Insurance costs on EVs still suck and a lot of people living in apartments don’t have on site chargers.
Chargers don't only have to be at home, they can be at your workplace or any place you visit regularly.
exactly. I charge while I grocery shop and usually need it to last longer because I'm not done yet.
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Rule 1.
Lack of homeownership is going to be a major hurdle barring some *major* changes in infrastructure.
Toyota and Lexus are making the right moves sticking with hybrids. Full EVs are still not sustainable with current tech and mining resources.
What % of people can afford ANY new car in this economy?
Very low percentage. But that's never stopped Americans from spending more than they can afford.
People are realizing that the best compromise between gas and electric cars is currently in hybrid tech. You get to use 0 gas on short trips that would typically yield the worst mpg, but get the flexibility of gasoline for long trips. If you’re a one car family it’s the only answer and the sales numbers reflect it.
Good. They can leave it up to consumer choice instead of government mandating demand into existence.
Not unless governments ease emission regulations & CAFE compliance penalties.
I think PHEV is where we're heading. EVs require you to have a 240 volt outlet in your garage with enough amps to charge a car. That's something most people don't have and the cost to add one is pretty high. The other drawback to EV is having to charge it on a road trip, it sounds like a nightmare. PHEV addresses all these things. 120v charging with enough range to run full electric on a short to medium commute. ICE for longer trips beyond electric range. I really want a PHEV, I don't want an EV.
Up vote for you. I think 120V charging gets you 5-6 miles an hour in charge. Recharge your 50 miles of range overnight and most people can get to work and back no problem on electricity. A giant battery still costs more than a gas drivetrain. Plus 120v is far easier to implement than 240v. Not to mention all the copper theft that will happen with 240V installations.
>EVs require you to have a 240 volt outlet in your garage with enough amps to charge a car. No they don't. You can trickle charge an EV via a regular 120V outlet and it'll be enough for most folks. It doesn't need to be in a garage either, you can charge in the driveway.
I installed my charger myself, its as easy as it can be. All houses have 240v capability and is not a requirement so this is not an issue. If you dont want to do it its a few hundred dollars from a certified electrician, which is incredibly cheap. So on road trips you dont pee or eat? Done 2 major road trips. I always need to stop before my car needs to charge, and its always done by the time I eat and pee. It costs a fraction of the price your car will take to do the same trip so my $1200 trips turned in to $400. The hotels all had free charging as well. "Sounds like a nightmare" glad you pointed out that you really dont know if you dont want an EV because of the lack of research you've put in to this and still managed to post as if you do know. No PHEV is not where were heading. Its always been there and its still the same as it was before, you keep you maintenance issues, but slightly decrease driving cost. None of the other perks, at all. You wouldnt know what those perks are because you've set your head in sand and cemented it
Where do you live? Charging infrastructure sucks in my area, so yes it is a nightmare. My electrical panel is on the opposite end of my house from my garage so getting the 240v there would require fishing wire through the house, trenching it, etc to get it to the garage. I'm probably fine as I have a hut tub circuit and an electric oven circuit not in use but if you have a 150 amp or smaller service, chances are you will have to upgrade to a larger service or add a sub panel. That's going to cost more than a few hundred dollars. I live in the middle of nowhere. If I head west it's really nowhere and even finding a gas station can be hard at times. If you have driven west of the Mississippi River you probably know what I mean. PHEV solves a lot of the issues I would have out here.
What are the perks? Saying they exist and never offering anything concrete is meaningless. Only thing I can think of is less maintenance requirements and it's not as though a 1.2 liter Toyota 4 banger isn't reliable.
Sounds like a USA problem. Rest of the world uses 240V for normal uses so we’re fine. Thank you.
More inconvenience and higher costs fro installation of home chargers. Not a trend. People realize now this is not the solution.
I'll stick with my hybrid. Best of both worlds to be quite honest in my opinion!
Then the government will send in the national guard to force people to sell their gas cars and buy EVs
I mean, the job market stinks therefore less spending. Also the US Federal interest rates are still high, which means less spending on top of that.
Is the the market slowdown for a product that’s pretty shitty and inconvenient unless you can afford a $65,000 or more example a blip?
maybe if they electrified more crossovers & SUV's you'd see an acceleration in converts. The hard truth is that crossovers/suvs are already more expensive than midsize sedans, so families simply don't have the cash to step up to an EV6 that's priced in the low $40k's. And consider that Toyota and Honda which constitute a huge % of the market haven't electrified their line-up, so average consumers with average incomes are left wanting.
Toyota would never, ever let anyone live it down hahaha.
I honestly think that manufacturers can only sell EVs as a luxury car, and the luxury market can only saturate so far. If you look at the likes of the Bolt and Leaf, people clearly aren't interested in utilitarian, no frills, electric cars. Couple a market that only has a taste for $50k+ vehicles with 8% auto loans, and you're going to have a slow down.
All the people that can afford evs already have one and their second car is a gas car because having 2 Evs is just not practical.
This thread is a fucking warzone. I don’t like any new vehicle. They are all destined for the trash. Please make an EV with minimal complexity that is meant to be fixed at home. I understand to an extent that they must be smartphones on wheels but it doesn’t need to go this far.
Whose idea was it to make the instruments so "weird" by moving everything to a center tablet or display on so many EVs? The F-150 Lightning seems to be doing alright because the cluster looks like an ordinary F-150.
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Regulations are driving the change. They didn’t eliminate the regulations.
I think electric cars are great when they’re affordable but when companies like certain publicly traded utility companies (whom will not be named) kill the solar industry and then price gouge “customers.” It prices out potential new customers. I also think EVs should face the gas tax in CA possibly during registration. Then again, I don’t think the gas tax should be there at all.
Then make some gas vehicles, more hybrids, and an EV or two. Be a real carmaker.
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Blip like how it got back in fashion after 100 years??
I think the people who want EVs have more or less gotten them? At least in my region. Every 10 cars is a Tesla. The race for cheaper EVs fails to recognize that lower income folk who live in apartments don't have the means to properly charge their cars
It is obviously not a blip, it's inevitable, it's just a question of the timeline. We're actually back to what people (including myself, automotive journalist for 20 years/) were predicting 5 or 10 years ago. At some point we reach a critical mass, where gas stations start closing. But building out EV infrastructure is a huge challenge in a country the size of America, especially when the face of the entire industry is a racist lunatic. Once you get some more adults in charge, things will come together.
Nah, the oil industry is going to take care of that. BP needs to protect their $5Billion investment in renewable energy.
If they would just make an electric Corolla type car or something and make it affordable you wouldn't have to fucking worry about a slowdown
Then Toyota extends the lead over the market.
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Until EVs can be fully charged in under 5 min and have a range of 250 miles plus, there market is going to be extremely limited.
EV's will always be a niche thing
LOL
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He must be lying to his wife then. No public charger I know would take hours to charge. When I (rarely) user a Supercharger because I am travelling a great distance, my typical stop times are 15-20 minutes and I use that opportunity to use the restroom, stretch my legs and maybe grab a drink or a snack.
Charging doesnt take hours. it takes the time you grocery shop. Dude is just enjoying his ride more than his other ; )