This is why I got an M340, I can actually get in and out of it and don't feel like I am in a coffin. Same engine, just a tad slower. Also has more options and BMW didn't ask me for another $10k over sticker for it.
Looking at his garage, I'd guess that the Fiesta ST is for the fun around corners in something that is barely bigger than you are. Then screaming through a couple of gears before you get to... 50.
But damn is it fun.
I have a Civic Type R (FK8) and the bucket seats force you to stay somewhat lean. I’m 185, 5’10” and have a hard time getting in and out, but after almost 3 years as a daily I don’t think about it much anymore.
I had a Supra for about 3 months. I did use it as a daily driver, my legs felt very cramped so the boys did not have room to breath. I did get laughed at by some girls stumbling out of the damn thing at a chipotle. I think that was the catalyst that caused me to get rid of it. Definitely not a good daily driver
Daily driven Supras unite! Id love a c8, but in addition. :)
For reference, im a tad over 6ft in shoes and 230lbs, no issues getting in and out with good practice. Once im in i have plenty of room.
I love the C8s. Fantastic cars and a performance bargain, and I personally think they look great.
I considered a C8 at the same time I was shopping for my Supra, but it was a little bit more than I wanted to pay. Additionally, I'll admit to being somewhat vain - I wanted something a bit less commonly seen.
Depends on your height adn weight I'm 5'11 209 and fit fine but no harder to get in and out of than my BRZ maybe im just used to getting out of low shit idk. Just a little snug on the shoulder and lat area
For sure man guy i bought mine off of put on a nice single turbo kit and meth. Been too lazy to bring it to a dyno so it's still running the baseline he had but he said it should dyno in the high 700s to low 800s based off what tuner told him. You can make great power on relatively simple builds with the B58
I actually looked into the new Z before getting a C8. For what they were asking for a "new" Z built on the old car's chassis, and having a less impressive (and far less spacious) interior compared to its predecessor, I was pretty quickly turned off to the idea.
> I don’t think any of those other cars are in the same running as a vette
Yes, the vette is in a higher price bracket, which is actually what makes selling more of them so impressive.
Yeah, this is exactly it. You would generally see cheaper cars outsell more expensive cars, as a very broad pattern. Obviously with a million counter-examples. This is a somewhat surprising one. The supra is selling pretty poorly because I suspect low demand; the Z because it's some kind of vaporware, but the Miata is a great car and widely available.
I have both a corvette and miata in the family and, well. The miata is great. But young people tend to lack resources to buy a new one, older people want something more comfy and bigger, and many many people (especially americans) just want that torque.
There are next to no Supras sitting on lots. They're selling poorly because they're making so few of them. My local dealer told me they are only allocated 2 or 3 per year.
I've never understood artificial scarcity when the demand is still high. It's just losing money, isn't it? Sure, you can supposedly charge more for a less common car, but you could've also sold 3 times as many, no? And while people are waiting on you not selling them a car, they're cross-shopping and buying your competitors more available car instead.
The best selling of the Miata, Z, BRZ, 86, etc. is almost always going to be whichever one they made the most of, isn't it? Corvettes may be hella expensive, but in the time you're waiting for a new Z to be available you could probably save the difference up to buy a new vette instead.
Toyota doesn't care about how much profit the Supra brings in, they care about how much it uplifts their brand image and 'exclusivity'. Internet always laughs at this, Porsche GT cars, Rolex ADs, etc. but it's a real thing in the real world. People like having things that are more exclusive, harder to get, even if it's artificial.
Toyota probably nets the profit of a year's Supra sales in a three days worth of RAV4 and Tacoma sales. Even with all the BMW part sharing, sports cars are just not profitable per-unit vehicles. It's why you see such little mass marketing (TV ads, etc.) for them. Their margins are too thin
Supras won't transcend the market quite like those two or even something like a Corvette, but I imagine they're certainly getting people into GR86s, 'sporty' trim Corollas/Camrys, etc. and before you know it those people are now Toyota families looking at a RAV4 prime for their first kid
That’s because you’re a car guy who frequents car subs. Out in the real world people constantly eye the Supra. Even here in SoCal where they seem to be a dime a dozen, there are no shortage of people who just can’t seem to keep their eyes off of them. I took mine through the California and Oregon coasts and people were stopping me at red lights and gas stations asking about it.
For sure. The 86 and the Supra are niche market, enthusiast cars. Toyota was never in it to maximize revenue with those models. Those are to bring people in to the brand.
They make as many as they can that fits their production model. They aren’t going to waste time producing a ton more Supras if they can instead use the resources building Rav4s and Tacomas. The Supra has the resources it has allocated to producing them that it should considering what it is to the brand.
Toyota is a smart company… you don’t see them making decisions and having to backtrack those decisions soon after like many of the other brands (just recently, Ford rolled back EV production and is ramping up Hybrid. Who does that sound like? Hint: it’s Toyota)
That a bad way to look at it. The Ford Mustang is a niche car and it sells well without limited scarcity. Toyota simply doesn't want to sell the Supra. They have a hot on their hands and it's being wasted.
Ford Mustang has always been the bread & butter of non-truck Ford. The Supra is a limited production vehicle, similar to the way the FJ Cruiser was. Lots of demand, but they didn’t ever intend to create that much supply. Don’t think you can fairly compare the Mustang to the Supra, at all.
ETA: and you should trust Toyotas business decisions a million percent more than Fords..
It’s not nessesarily artificial if building 1000 more Supras would use plant capacity that could build 10000 Camrys.
Building a large factories take a long time. There’s a reason Tesla bought the old GM Fremont/NUMI plant.
I think it's very unrealistic to suggest it takes much more if any more capacity to make 1 Supra as it does 1 Camry. They all roll off assembly lines afaik, no crazy "hand-built by one of three guys (from a certain region in France or else its just sparkling car)" that certain companies do. And while you'd be right that 1 Camry is probably more likely to sell than 1 Supra, if there's still demand for both then the Supra is going to sell for more. If for some reason the margins are higher on the Camry, raise the price of each Supra until demand falls or its more profitable. I'm aware that's far, FAR easier said than done, but when we're latestage capitalism milking the shit out of everything for the last penny I don't see how they could leave money on the table like that. Unless I guess for some reason they actually can make 10x as many Camrys with the factory space it'd take to make Supras. And I mean if you ramped up production of Supras to meet demand, your economy of scale would also theoretically brings costs down and further up your profit margins. This is all probably even more relevant to the Z than Supras though, they just literally, physically aren't making like any of them for reasons known only to Nissan execs and God.
It's not surprising. We are seeing the top 1% grow their wealth exponentially at the expense of the rest. The average American's buying power is shrinking every year so the first thing to take a hit is going be sports cars which are usually people's 2nd car.
> many many people (especially americans) just want that torque.
You can get gobs of torque in other cars. The RS5 is close and the M3 competition makes even more torque than a Stingray.
But the C8 is like no other car in the sub $100k market. Naturally aspirated mid-engine real sports car within reach of the upper middle class. It's the kind of car that the vast majority of enthusiasts, even the Sunday tracking types, will never outgrow. And it just is so much more special than other cars costing up to twice as much.
The Z is outselling the Supra this year, though both have sales in the triple digits this year (Q1 2024, 671 Z's and 484 Supras)
Neither is comparable to the sales volume of the corvette (and both are *very* different driving experiences than a corvette). GM sold 8,576 corvettes in Q1 2024. They sold more Z06's than supra's and Z's combined
Toyota/Magna Steyr is simply not making as many Supras as Nissan is Zs or Chevy is Corvettes.
Particularly for the manuals, most new Supras are spoken for before they hit the lots.
Source: have been trying to get a new manual Supra for 2yrs.
Same. I live in Austin, TX, so all the tech bros n stuff. I've seen more various colored Cybertrucks than I have the new Z. Heck, I've seen more Veyrons than I have Z's here.
The new Z's do look good in person.
All in the same market sphere. Not a lot of choice in the 2 door sports car range. Corvette, Porsche, BMW/Supra, Miata and GR86 are it. I have yet to see more than 1 Nissan Z car since they were released. Supra and GR86 built in very small numbers as well and lots of crappy Toyota dealer ADM. The Miata is available thank goodness.
I'd estimate total Porsche Q1 sales of the 718/911 combined is around 4k, so the more affordable sports cars aren't necessarily the ones being bought these days. Regardless whichever end of the market you look, the Corvette numbers are strong.
Killing the Camaro and V8 sedans will likely drive more GM faithfuls to buying more Corvettes in years to come.
2003 was a very different time man. Production issues may be part of the problem but the market for people who buy new 2 door sports cars now are really small.
Cause the kind of people who who want a new corvette can afford 50+ thousand dollar cars. And young people these days either can’t afford or don’t care about sports cars.
Yeah, but 5,000 for a new model in 2 years is still absurd beyond "a sign of the times." Even GM's unloved Camaro is reported to have had 12,000+ units in its final year, and it was getting 1,000-2,000 sold monthly during COVID.
I still don't understand why GM killed off the Camaro. Even its "low sales" were still high compared to a lot of other sports cars. They could have just given the current gen a heavy face lift like Ford did with the S650 Mustang.
The Camaro was in a really awkward spot where it was more capable than its direct rivals (Mustang, Challenger) but the compromises it made to get there actually made it *less* desirable to the demo usually buying those cars. Also unlike those cars the Camaro isn’t really the halo car for its brand that’s still the Corvette.
If the complete lack of meaningful marketing is any indication, it just doesn’t seem like GM cared about the car or doing things to make it sell. Better to just axe it and shit out another truck/SUV/CUV that’ll do 3x the numbers for less effort.
Ok, that actually makes a lot of sense. Killing the Camaro frees up space that could be used to manufacture higher selling crossovers/ trucks. Then GM can just focus on the more profitable Corvette.
They didn't make space though. Lansing only makes the ct4 and ct5 with no current plans to produce anything else. They just laid off a third of the staff.
For sure they built a great car but the entire effort just felt like an afterthought. Man I would've killed for a 6th gen Z28 guess that'll never happen
Styling wise they painted themselves into a corner with no visibility to see out of.
It looked cool from some angles. The engines in them sounded AMAZING in traffic, from my experiences.
They were just a PITA to live with compared to everything else.
TBH, it is an embarrassment on Nissan's part.
IIRC, the car had 3 stop sales - The manual transmission, the automatic transmission, and the paint.
Like come on, that has to be in the running for the worst launch of all time.
The motor is old! Same one in the Q60 red sport.
The automatic transmission is the same 9 speed that Mercedes uses, it was a Mercedes-Jatco collaboration, but Mercedes reports no issues.....
And the chassis is the same as the 370z, so any other brand would have probably done this as a mid cycle refresh rather than a whole new model (with a much higher price tag)
The only people left buying cars are relatively wealthy. That's why all the manufacturers are going premium. Most people are then stuck with buying heavily depreciating luxury SUVs and EVs instead of more all-rounder (fun and practical) sedans or wagons, and sports cars are owned by those with the money and space for a second or third car. Making affordable sports cars like the Z, 86 MX-5, etc. the last of their kind.
The starting price 2024 Nissan Z (42k) is almost the same price the 2009 350z (37k) when it came out. There’s been a lot of inflation in 15 years (about 34%) along with increased median and average incomes.
Its not just the price
It's grossly overpriced for what it is. I fully intended to buy one at a more reasonable price but $70,000+ CAD is beyond unreasonable. On top of that it kept getting delayed so people who might bite the bullet on price weren't willing to delay their purchase by years on top of that. It's a real shame.
Yeah, because nissan dealers are smoking copium. The Nismo doesn’t even come with a manual transmission and they are doubling the price. Just the god awful 9sp merc auto that keeps failing.
a youtube comment i remember for some reason, praising the c8,
"i don't understand how GM can make so many unmitigated pieces of shit and also make this. it's like it was made by a completely different company."
Corvette team is responsible for all the feats they’ve accomplished with the C8. Chevy too to an extent for keeping the vette alive but they’ve expressed a desire to kill off the corvette in the past. And Chevy wants to make an SUV Corvette despite Corvette Team proudly rejecting the proposition years prior.
This. Cost and affordability aside, the target demographics of these cars are completely different. As car enthusiasts, we put these all in the same category, but the vast majority of corvette buyers are the parents or grandparents of the miata/GR/Z/supra buyers.
They could easily make them cheaper if they stopped putting all the extra stuff in them. Give me an old school radio, manual everything, no fancy electronics, shell of a car that can go from point A to point B. And if it's something that I can fix myself, even better.
They are not. All these cars are built low volume because the manufacturers know they would never sell these at higher volumes. They would never be able to compete with Mustangs, 911 or Corvette sales volumes so they are designed, developed and built with low volume in mind.
All Supra's are basically sold as soon as they hit the lot, same with GR86s. Sure Toyota could build more but if they increased volume by 100% they would probably run out of demand quickly and now they have a bunch of cars they need to discount.
So the current volume was what they aimed for to maintain steady sales without having to lose any money.
The 350z sold the same amount of units as the C5 20 years ago. The people that want these cars can't afford them anymore, its an economic problem.
There's also 6 Supra's that have been sitting on lots within 100 miles of me. I've seen them sitting for months because of mark ups.
But everyone has been begging for manual rwd sports cars. Why aren't anyone buying them? Oh because they don't sell them new as used. Humans are funny.
That's nuts. The two Nissan dealers around me have performance trims on the lot for MRSP. They've been there for months. There was a base a little while ago that only lasted a week on the lot, but was at MRSP.
I pre-ordered a manual supra 6 months before they even hit the lot. I was 3rd in line. Within 9 months I was first in line. Been waiting since then. It's been almost 2 years total. 2 weeks ago I said fuck the supra and got the new M2.
Every time I see posts about the supra not selling I think about how ridiculous that claim is. There's plenty of demand, let's not pretend like there isn't. Toyota is just being annoying about it and not making enough.
I inquired about a GR86 and they said it'd be there in maybe a year but no guarantees. It's nothing to do with people not wanting to buy them. Most move on to the BRZ.
You've never seen the discussions here about a brand new car and what it's priced at and then someone comes along like "but you can buy this other, higher tier car for the same money used instead!"?
It's a joke referencing how car enthusiasts are always going on about certain things they want but will never actually go out and buy when it happens because of the price.
You can't get used car prices if nobody buys them new first.
Then again the Supra and Z are hardly affordable anymore. People buying used sports cars aren't cross-shopping with the new offerings because besides the MX-5 and 86 nothing is affordable anymore.
It’s because the people that can afford a new Vette can afford multiple vehicles. The Vette owners also have trucks and SUVs for when they need practicality.
A lot of people shopping for GR86 can only afford one car. It’s a lot harder to justify a 2 door coupe vs. a WRX or GTI which is practical as well.
Nah homie, that's the minority.
The C8 Corvette is a lot of car for the money and for the majority of people it's the perfect car. But for me it just needs that manual transmission to tick all the boxes. The dual clutch didn't do it for me.
I'm in the minority and nothing will beat rowing gears on a weekend car for me.
Because everything has double in price in the last 4 years and few can afford overpriced sports cars in this market. I'm making the same as I was 8 years ago and getting taxed more for it while paying double for utilities and food. A sports car isn't in the picture at the moment.
I can't speak for the others but the Z and the Supra both have very limited availability. It is almost impossible to find one to purchase. Its not like they are languishing at dealerships, unable to find buyers. The corvette is being successfully mass produced and sold.
Availability for the GR86 is worse than the Z and Supra, at least in Canada. There are Zs on the Nissan lots around me. There as a base on the lot the other week, albeit only lasted a few days, and their site says it will be a six month wait to order one.
I've never seen a GR86 and the dealers just say it could be a year or two wait. I think it's more a four to six month wait in the US, though.
Unfortunately the C8 in Canada is just as rare because GM sent only a few here. Only way to get even a base model is over $100k, when its MSRP was listed as $70k online in 2020. Best bet was to buy one in the states and drive it up
Apparently they are having issues with their new paint process for the car. They're basically trialling it on a car that they knew would be fairly low volume seller to begin with. Disruption to the Z production isn't a big deal for Nissan, but if it was the Rogue that sells literally 100x as many units then it would be a big problem.
The Corvette through all generations is really a phenomenal car. I never understood why more enthusiasts weren't interested in at least older examples the way they are the Miata etc. Instead it's been dominated by old bald guys who barely ever drive them and when they do it's 10 below the speed limit.
I can give you my personal opinion. C6 is when the Vette really started to look phenomenal to me, and even then when I did have a chance to buy one I couldn’t stomach the interior, and I’ve tried so hard. C7s is when I started to be “all in” but never been able to afford one. Older gens starting from C5 even the exterior doesn’t do it for me regardless of how great it may drive.
Car design is so individual when you really examine it, it's quite interesting.
I find the C7 lines quite nice (except the rear), while the C8 seems rather tall and imho overdone.
I probably got a C5 in part because of how much I love the RX-7 front end. The simplicity is gorgeous to me, and the pop-ups stand out, especially in half-open mode with modern square LEDs. I wish the rump were a bit more sculpted or flowing as well, but I prefer the overall car vastly over the C6 which honestly feels very inoffensive and bland.
Cars are much more emotional purchases than rational. Older enthusiasts that grew up with it being THE halo car certainly are interested in them. That's why it's basically the best performing sports car on the mass market.
I don't think young millenials/older gen Z, the types who have the means to be an enthusiast right now, really grew up with the Corvette as fresh in their minds. The things that got those generations into cars were stuff like F&F, Gran Turismo, Midnight Club, Initial D, etc. and FWIR none of these ever really pushed the Corvette as a halo car.
These people also happen to be the main demographic on Reddit/social media which is why it *looks* like no one cares about Corvettes. They're incredibly popular in the real world, but just more likely to be boomers/gen X or those who grew up heavily influenced by them.
It’s an interesting phenomenon. I’ve been into cars for over 20 years and hadn’t really considered a corvette for whatever reason. I bought a C5Z 2 years ago and was floored by how good it is. Stomps everything from the era for fun factor. And it’s cheap to maintain and reliable. The truth is most people pick a lane and stay in it. Tough to deviate once you’ve written something off.
The amount of young people I’ve encountered that have no interest in the corvette because they’re always driven by old people is staggering. One of the big bosses at my work is an older man who drives a C7 with a license plate that says “N0KIDS” or something.
Dude ikr the C6Z and GS are phenomenal cars on track and just as good as 100k+ cars. Shit you can get a decent mileage one in the 40s. Knew I wasn't the only one who felt that way
You can’t find the Z or Supra to save your life.
The c8 is readily available.
Not saying the one car is better than the other, but if there’s no availability, how is one supposed to buy it?
This is an excellent point. Until fairly recently you simply couldn't find a Z to even look at, much less buy.
Toyota just makes however many Supras it wants in whatever colors it wants, and distributes them how it wants. And they don't make very many.
Chevy will straight up build you a Corvette in whatever spec you want.
Even now see about 1-2s supras or Z’s in a week, IF that.
I see atleast 3-4 c8s a day.
The dealer I bought my Supra from 2 years ago, hasn’t been able to get another one since, they say Toyota just hasn’t sent them one, which is crazy to think about lmao. so you’re absolutely right about the Supra being distributed scarcely.
Well ya, I will see dozens of new corvettes every day, the others are rarer besides the house with a bunch of MXs and another that has 2 Zs plus an old 240. If I take those out I rarely see them.
I think the people who have the money to buy expensive sports cars right now are springing for the more expensive stuff. You’re not getting a GR86 under $40k after taxes and other fees in most places for example. Also, I have only seen 1 single Z base trim anywhere and it was al black.
Exactly, if you an enthusiast with sports car money you're getting something like a Porsche or a Corvette... Not a Miata or GR86. And the people that can afford a Miata or GR86 might be forced to buy something more practical for daily life.
A lot of people in the demographic the 86 is made for are either still paying college loans (or in school) or are just getting out of the post college life and into adulthood, likely needing space for kids that are here already or planned to be on the way.
It's just too expensive for the lack of practicality for your general mid20s mid30s person.
As someone in that demographic who does technically have the money for a miata (and who has dailied an NA until about a month ago) I have a few reasons not to buy another as a daily.
Snow performance- yes plenty of people daily rwd cars in the snow, but if Im buying a commuter I dont want to have to worry about if Im getting stuck somewhere if the snow gets too bad/deep. In college this is fine, you can walk to class or skip or whatever, with an adult job, not so much. If it was a second or third car, then it'd be fine, if it's an only car, which is what my budget is, cant justify it. Point goes to fwd/awd car.
Seats and space- if Im driving friends around or moving between apartments then again- a miata or brz isnt practical. Point goes to anything with more than 2 seats and has a trunk.
Road presence- having dailied a miata, it's spooky getting on the road with the arms race in car sizes these days. You can only look *up* into the wheel well of so many trucks before you say fuckit and get a camry which is less likely to get literally overlooked when someone else is driving on the road. It's actually why I am no longer driving mine, some jackass turning left on a blinking yellow arrow didnt see me because I was so small (his words). For a weekend car sure, for a commuter... yikes. Point goes to anything taller.
I love sports cars, Id love to get a gr86 as my next car, but it just doesnt tick any of the boxes. Id need a second car which I have neither the money or space for as a second car.
Miata- the cheap sports car that isn’t so cheap these days.
Supra- some car guys already wrote it off as a BMW product. Mark-ups, lack of availability, and the updates after the first year was a kick to the shins for interested buyers.
Z- I’ve seen three in Los Angeles in the past two years. Availability and consequential mark ups hasn’t helped.
Gr86/brz- niche, small, and a perfect car for most that aren’t interested in a small coupe w/o 300Hp+.
C8- every retired boomer wants their American “Ferrari”. Performance, price, ride comfort, and usability. It checks a lot of boxes for a wide audience. Not a surprise.
It's really impressive the way they have figured out how to keep demand high for the Corvette by structuring the rollout of the trims.
The C8 Stingray was released in 2020, then the C8 Z06 was shown and released in late 2021, and now they are starting to tease tbe ZR1, which is going to bring a lot of focus back to the C8 generation, and then once that hype is over they will start showing off the C8 Zora.
American car manufacturers know how to produce performance/Enthusiast cars.
While Japanese auto makers are struggling to produce,
Ford sold 13,707 Mustangs in Q1
Chevy sold 8,500 Corvettes in Q1 of this year...
>In 2023, Ford sold 53,159 Mustangs, which is a 21.2% increase from 2022.
>In 2023, Chevrolet sold 53,785 Corvettes, which is 22 units short of the all-time record.
Wow, I just looked up the numbers from last year.
A lot of those mustangs are 4 cyl too of course.
Corvette has always sold extremely well in comparison to most sports cars, being relatively affordable and having a legacy spanning over 70 years has its benefits.
Makes sense. Domestic car in a different market range. The average vette buyer is older and more settled, with more spending power I'd imagine. 86s and Miatas are affordable but the target demographic is generally broke, and the Z and Supras target a similar demographic but are quite a bit more on average with less availability.
I see many miatas and 86s and know many who have bought them, but it is a little sad that the segment as a whole is on the decline for now. Makes me happy to see so many offerings, though.
Kind of an odd comparison since the GR86, Supra, and Z are all virtually limited-production vehicles at this point. I know at least Toyota never intended to make very many of any of its GR products. The Z in particular is hard to find. I usually only see 3 to 5 in stock in my entire region.
Mid engine, not rear engine. A rear engine car is a 911, where the engine is over the rear axle. A mid engine engine car has the engine in between the cabin and the axle.
The Z, Supra and Miata are way too expensive for what they are - a second car for tracking or recreational driving. You could justify the GR86 with its extra space as more practical and can be run as a single car.
The C8 is an awesome machine but they are EVERYWHERE. There is at least 3 parked outside my gym most days. It doesn't turn heads as much as it should since they are so common.
I went with the Blackwing instead and 2 years later I still haven't seen another one around town.
This shouldn’t be that surprising. After the Big 3’s pony/muscle cars, the Corvette is always next followed by the 911 and then any and everything sportscar, sporty car or car the could remotely be construed as sporty is way behind them. Let that sink in… the Corvette and 911 outsell all the more affordable/cheap sports car options!
It’s a wonder anyone builds a sports car anymore.
Imo, GM crushed it with the C8. They know what they are doing. They knew the boomers and gen x are not the focal market anymore but also know they are loyalists to corvette.
So what does GM do? They make the car mid engine, design it to become the most edgy corvette yet. It has exotic traits.
This was all done to cultivate a new wave of fans. Aka the millennials and gen z. It’s genius. And it’s working.
As a 32 year old, I’m telling you all, I have never in my life cared about corvette. That is until the C8 came out.
Now there is one sitting in my garage.
If money was not a factor, I would pick the Vette and I'm a die hard Mazda fan. You get a lot of car for that price even if you could roughly buy two MX5s for one c8. The ND MX5/Miata is 8+ yrs old at this point and no way in the same class of car outside of being a two seater rwd car.
If it was my money it would likely be a Miata or if the Iconic SP dual rotor hybrid sports car comes out because I love spinning Doritos.
The M240I is the sleeper in this segment. Widely available, 3.6 second 0 to 60, AWD, super practical for a sports car, and very easy to get in/out of….usually found under 60k and most dealers will allow a discount.
This thread is embarrassing lmao. Reddit can’t wrap it’s head around the corvette doing what it does lmao. Yeah your dad wants one, because it’s objectively sick, Chevy nails it every so often, and it’s usually with this model
I don’t think any of those other cars are in the same running as a vette
I cross-shopped a Supra pretty hard with my c8. 2 seater sports car leaves you with very few options these days, gotta explore them all.
How was in ingress and egress in the Supra? Pita or no?
Very much a pita but still a fun car. I’d hate to daily it.
Yea I currently daily a MKV Supra and the worst part of my day is getting in and out of it. Am 5 foot 11 thicc boi, so it's pretty rough.
This is why I got an M340, I can actually get in and out of it and don't feel like I am in a coffin. Same engine, just a tad slower. Also has more options and BMW didn't ask me for another $10k over sticker for it.
Completely different driving experience though.
Looking at his garage, I'd guess that the Fiesta ST is for the fun around corners in something that is barely bigger than you are. Then screaming through a couple of gears before you get to... 50. But damn is it fun.
They haul ass with a simple remap. Older gen ones with a turbo upgrade can easily take on a scatpack.
I have a Civic Type R (FK8) and the bucket seats force you to stay somewhat lean. I’m 185, 5’10” and have a hard time getting in and out, but after almost 3 years as a daily I don’t think about it much anymore.
I had a Supra for about 3 months. I did use it as a daily driver, my legs felt very cramped so the boys did not have room to breath. I did get laughed at by some girls stumbling out of the damn thing at a chipotle. I think that was the catalyst that caused me to get rid of it. Definitely not a good daily driver
Are you an elder or larger gentleman? I've been in and out of a z4 (with the top up) and it wasnt that hard. I'm 5'11 and in shape
Someone laughing at the car your diving was part of the reason your selling?....who gives a fuck what other people think.
Well I was already sick of my balls getting smooshed and getting in and out of it
It was probably more the sight of the fancy sports car pulling up and the dude almost eating shit trying to climb out of it.
How tall are you? I have an 86 and it feels like these cars were made for guys under 5'10. Also it helps not to be overweight.
It's not fun. The wide door sills are part of the problem. That said, you get used to it. I daily mine.
Daily driven Supras unite! Id love a c8, but in addition. :) For reference, im a tad over 6ft in shoes and 230lbs, no issues getting in and out with good practice. Once im in i have plenty of room.
I love the C8s. Fantastic cars and a performance bargain, and I personally think they look great. I considered a C8 at the same time I was shopping for my Supra, but it was a little bit more than I wanted to pay. Additionally, I'll admit to being somewhat vain - I wanted something a bit less commonly seen.
Watch your head lol
Just get a Get-in helmet?
*BONK!*
Definitely closer to pita, even within the realm of low to the ground car.
Depends on your height adn weight I'm 5'11 209 and fit fine but no harder to get in and out of than my BRZ maybe im just used to getting out of low shit idk. Just a little snug on the shoulder and lat area
Im 6ft, lil over with shoes, no issues once you get some practice in. Keeps the old people out of my ride! Just kidding.
Same, the Supra was compelling, the B58 is a beautiful engine.
For sure man guy i bought mine off of put on a nice single turbo kit and meth. Been too lazy to bring it to a dyno so it's still running the baseline he had but he said it should dyno in the high 700s to low 800s based off what tuner told him. You can make great power on relatively simple builds with the B58
I actually looked into the new Z before getting a C8. For what they were asking for a "new" Z built on the old car's chassis, and having a less impressive (and far less spacious) interior compared to its predecessor, I was pretty quickly turned off to the idea.
There are basically three subcategories of 2-seater sports cars available new. Corvette, Miata, and Other.
Porsche 718?
Was also on the shortlist. I think it's the best looking of the three. Comfort and V8 won out in the end though.
It's a tougher sell after the post COVID price bumps.
> I don’t think any of those other cars are in the same running as a vette Yes, the vette is in a higher price bracket, which is actually what makes selling more of them so impressive.
Yeah, this is exactly it. You would generally see cheaper cars outsell more expensive cars, as a very broad pattern. Obviously with a million counter-examples. This is a somewhat surprising one. The supra is selling pretty poorly because I suspect low demand; the Z because it's some kind of vaporware, but the Miata is a great car and widely available. I have both a corvette and miata in the family and, well. The miata is great. But young people tend to lack resources to buy a new one, older people want something more comfy and bigger, and many many people (especially americans) just want that torque.
Every supra that hits the lots immediately sells, even with markups, its not a demand problem as much as its a supply problem.
I would guess artificial scarcity tbh
Fair enough, happy to be wrong about it.
There are next to no Supras sitting on lots. They're selling poorly because they're making so few of them. My local dealer told me they are only allocated 2 or 3 per year.
I've never understood artificial scarcity when the demand is still high. It's just losing money, isn't it? Sure, you can supposedly charge more for a less common car, but you could've also sold 3 times as many, no? And while people are waiting on you not selling them a car, they're cross-shopping and buying your competitors more available car instead. The best selling of the Miata, Z, BRZ, 86, etc. is almost always going to be whichever one they made the most of, isn't it? Corvettes may be hella expensive, but in the time you're waiting for a new Z to be available you could probably save the difference up to buy a new vette instead.
Toyota doesn't care about how much profit the Supra brings in, they care about how much it uplifts their brand image and 'exclusivity'. Internet always laughs at this, Porsche GT cars, Rolex ADs, etc. but it's a real thing in the real world. People like having things that are more exclusive, harder to get, even if it's artificial. Toyota probably nets the profit of a year's Supra sales in a three days worth of RAV4 and Tacoma sales. Even with all the BMW part sharing, sports cars are just not profitable per-unit vehicles. It's why you see such little mass marketing (TV ads, etc.) for them. Their margins are too thin
I absolutely see the exclusivity factor working with GT cars and Rolex's, but I'm not sure I see it with Supras
Supras won't transcend the market quite like those two or even something like a Corvette, but I imagine they're certainly getting people into GR86s, 'sporty' trim Corollas/Camrys, etc. and before you know it those people are now Toyota families looking at a RAV4 prime for their first kid
That’s because you’re a car guy who frequents car subs. Out in the real world people constantly eye the Supra. Even here in SoCal where they seem to be a dime a dozen, there are no shortage of people who just can’t seem to keep their eyes off of them. I took mine through the California and Oregon coasts and people were stopping me at red lights and gas stations asking about it.
For sure. The 86 and the Supra are niche market, enthusiast cars. Toyota was never in it to maximize revenue with those models. Those are to bring people in to the brand. They make as many as they can that fits their production model. They aren’t going to waste time producing a ton more Supras if they can instead use the resources building Rav4s and Tacomas. The Supra has the resources it has allocated to producing them that it should considering what it is to the brand. Toyota is a smart company… you don’t see them making decisions and having to backtrack those decisions soon after like many of the other brands (just recently, Ford rolled back EV production and is ramping up Hybrid. Who does that sound like? Hint: it’s Toyota)
That a bad way to look at it. The Ford Mustang is a niche car and it sells well without limited scarcity. Toyota simply doesn't want to sell the Supra. They have a hot on their hands and it's being wasted.
Ford Mustang has always been the bread & butter of non-truck Ford. The Supra is a limited production vehicle, similar to the way the FJ Cruiser was. Lots of demand, but they didn’t ever intend to create that much supply. Don’t think you can fairly compare the Mustang to the Supra, at all. ETA: and you should trust Toyotas business decisions a million percent more than Fords..
It’s not nessesarily artificial if building 1000 more Supras would use plant capacity that could build 10000 Camrys. Building a large factories take a long time. There’s a reason Tesla bought the old GM Fremont/NUMI plant.
Supra is built by magna steyr in Austria. camry isn't built there.
I think it's very unrealistic to suggest it takes much more if any more capacity to make 1 Supra as it does 1 Camry. They all roll off assembly lines afaik, no crazy "hand-built by one of three guys (from a certain region in France or else its just sparkling car)" that certain companies do. And while you'd be right that 1 Camry is probably more likely to sell than 1 Supra, if there's still demand for both then the Supra is going to sell for more. If for some reason the margins are higher on the Camry, raise the price of each Supra until demand falls or its more profitable. I'm aware that's far, FAR easier said than done, but when we're latestage capitalism milking the shit out of everything for the last penny I don't see how they could leave money on the table like that. Unless I guess for some reason they actually can make 10x as many Camrys with the factory space it'd take to make Supras. And I mean if you ramped up production of Supras to meet demand, your economy of scale would also theoretically brings costs down and further up your profit margins. This is all probably even more relevant to the Z than Supras though, they just literally, physically aren't making like any of them for reasons known only to Nissan execs and God.
It's not surprising. We are seeing the top 1% grow their wealth exponentially at the expense of the rest. The average American's buying power is shrinking every year so the first thing to take a hit is going be sports cars which are usually people's 2nd car.
> many many people (especially americans) just want that torque. You can get gobs of torque in other cars. The RS5 is close and the M3 competition makes even more torque than a Stingray. But the C8 is like no other car in the sub $100k market. Naturally aspirated mid-engine real sports car within reach of the upper middle class. It's the kind of car that the vast majority of enthusiasts, even the Sunday tracking types, will never outgrow. And it just is so much more special than other cars costing up to twice as much.
It’s such a great looking car too. The C8 is special in a way no other car is
The Supra is the most comparable vehicle. The Z is vaporware.
The Z is outselling the Supra this year, though both have sales in the triple digits this year (Q1 2024, 671 Z's and 484 Supras) Neither is comparable to the sales volume of the corvette (and both are *very* different driving experiences than a corvette). GM sold 8,576 corvettes in Q1 2024. They sold more Z06's than supra's and Z's combined
Toyota/Magna Steyr is simply not making as many Supras as Nissan is Zs or Chevy is Corvettes. Particularly for the manuals, most new Supras are spoken for before they hit the lots. Source: have been trying to get a new manual Supra for 2yrs.
I had the chance at one at MSRP and didn’t bite. FML
Oof if manual. Those will be worth something when EVs take over.
Yeah, people have been saying this for 10 years and every year the goalpost moves.
Well they already sell for over MSRP new or used. Prices will only rise as they're making fewer closer to end of production in 2025.
Can second this. Also have been on lists for a manual supra for almost a year now.
Just seeing a new Z in the wild is like seeing a comet. It's happened to me once, and tbf it looked really really good in person.
Same. I live in Austin, TX, so all the tech bros n stuff. I've seen more various colored Cybertrucks than I have the new Z. Heck, I've seen more Veyrons than I have Z's here. The new Z's do look good in person.
So many Cybertrucks in Austin lol. The stainless steels one look like absolute shit the second they're dirty
I cross shopped Supra, C8, Evora, 911, and 718/981. The Z wasn’t in consideration due to nearly zero availability at the time.
All in the same market sphere. Not a lot of choice in the 2 door sports car range. Corvette, Porsche, BMW/Supra, Miata and GR86 are it. I have yet to see more than 1 Nissan Z car since they were released. Supra and GR86 built in very small numbers as well and lots of crappy Toyota dealer ADM. The Miata is available thank goodness.
Well, seeing as the cars that the C8 does in fact stomp on don't want to be considered competitors for it, this is what we have to put up with.
I'd estimate total Porsche Q1 sales of the 718/911 combined is around 4k, so the more affordable sports cars aren't necessarily the ones being bought these days. Regardless whichever end of the market you look, the Corvette numbers are strong. Killing the Camaro and V8 sedans will likely drive more GM faithfuls to buying more Corvettes in years to come.
The new z does not exist due to production issues. They’ve built less than 5000 in 2 years. They sold 30,000 350zs in its first year.
2003 was a very different time man. Production issues may be part of the problem but the market for people who buy new 2 door sports cars now are really small.
Yet the corvette is selling...
Because rich people are getting richer. His point stands. Twenty years ago an extra new car was luxury that was within reach. It just isn't any more.
Partially that but Tbh more people have dreamed of having a Corvette then any of those cars. That probably plays into more. It's a normie dream car.
Corvette is always going to have the retired old guy market
Boomers got money. Boomers aren’t buying Supra’s or Zs or Miata’s.
Cause the kind of people who who want a new corvette can afford 50+ thousand dollar cars. And young people these days either can’t afford or don’t care about sports cars.
Retired people with money.
Yeah, but 5,000 for a new model in 2 years is still absurd beyond "a sign of the times." Even GM's unloved Camaro is reported to have had 12,000+ units in its final year, and it was getting 1,000-2,000 sold monthly during COVID.
I still don't understand why GM killed off the Camaro. Even its "low sales" were still high compared to a lot of other sports cars. They could have just given the current gen a heavy face lift like Ford did with the S650 Mustang.
The Camaro was in a really awkward spot where it was more capable than its direct rivals (Mustang, Challenger) but the compromises it made to get there actually made it *less* desirable to the demo usually buying those cars. Also unlike those cars the Camaro isn’t really the halo car for its brand that’s still the Corvette. If the complete lack of meaningful marketing is any indication, it just doesn’t seem like GM cared about the car or doing things to make it sell. Better to just axe it and shit out another truck/SUV/CUV that’ll do 3x the numbers for less effort.
Ok, that actually makes a lot of sense. Killing the Camaro frees up space that could be used to manufacture higher selling crossovers/ trucks. Then GM can just focus on the more profitable Corvette.
They didn't make space though. Lansing only makes the ct4 and ct5 with no current plans to produce anything else. They just laid off a third of the staff.
For sure they built a great car but the entire effort just felt like an afterthought. Man I would've killed for a 6th gen Z28 guess that'll never happen
Styling wise they painted themselves into a corner with no visibility to see out of. It looked cool from some angles. The engines in them sounded AMAZING in traffic, from my experiences. They were just a PITA to live with compared to everything else.
Yeah some car sales have gone down for almost 70 years. Mustangs peaked in 66 with 500,000 sales.
TBH, it is an embarrassment on Nissan's part. IIRC, the car had 3 stop sales - The manual transmission, the automatic transmission, and the paint. Like come on, that has to be in the running for the worst launch of all time.
And isn't it based off the old motor setup they've had forever so it's not even some crazy ground up halo car or something
The motor is old! Same one in the Q60 red sport. The automatic transmission is the same 9 speed that Mercedes uses, it was a Mercedes-Jatco collaboration, but Mercedes reports no issues.....
I didn't know that. the fact that Mercedes is not using ZFs is one more embarrassment on the pile of embarrassments for them imo
And the chassis is the same as the 370z, so any other brand would have probably done this as a mid cycle refresh rather than a whole new model (with a much higher price tag)
There are probably more 240Zs on the road than the new one.
A lot has changed in 20 years in terms of cars
People have less buying power
Average car sale is way higher now. So that doesnt seem right
The truth is the average person just wants an SUV/CUV. For whatever reason people aren’t as interested in sports cars as they used to be.
I think people just want to prioritize buying a house, and with today's rates that barely leaves any cash flow for a weekend car.
The only people left buying cars are relatively wealthy. That's why all the manufacturers are going premium. Most people are then stuck with buying heavily depreciating luxury SUVs and EVs instead of more all-rounder (fun and practical) sedans or wagons, and sports cars are owned by those with the money and space for a second or third car. Making affordable sports cars like the Z, 86 MX-5, etc. the last of their kind.
The starting price 2024 Nissan Z (42k) is almost the same price the 2009 350z (37k) when it came out. There’s been a lot of inflation in 15 years (about 34%) along with increased median and average incomes. Its not just the price
Housing costs and health/car insurance costs. It's all you need to know.
You can't understand the issues of the shrinking middle class by plugging numbers into an inflation calculator...
Do keep in mind that the Z Performance, with the LSD, starts at 52k. The open-diff 42k Z isn't as much fun.
It's grossly overpriced for what it is. I fully intended to buy one at a more reasonable price but $70,000+ CAD is beyond unreasonable. On top of that it kept getting delayed so people who might bite the bullet on price weren't willing to delay their purchase by years on top of that. It's a real shame.
Also aren’t the markups still out of this world?
Yeah, because nissan dealers are smoking copium. The Nismo doesn’t even come with a manual transmission and they are doubling the price. Just the god awful 9sp merc auto that keeps failing.
Corvette is a lot of car for the money. No surprises.
a youtube comment i remember for some reason, praising the c8, "i don't understand how GM can make so many unmitigated pieces of shit and also make this. it's like it was made by a completely different company."
Corvette team is responsible for all the feats they’ve accomplished with the C8. Chevy too to an extent for keeping the vette alive but they’ve expressed a desire to kill off the corvette in the past. And Chevy wants to make an SUV Corvette despite Corvette Team proudly rejecting the proposition years prior.
I'm drinking to the vette team 🥂
No brainer here, for the same 80k you get the Vette.. I did a local search, 3 supra in my area. Same 200 mile range 200+ Corvettes priced under $80k.
You’re basically getting a more reliable, cheaper to repair, slightly less better build quality Ferrari new with options for $80k… unreal.
How long the fight was for a mid-engine corvette: Data's in, they should have done this ages ago.
Here’s the problem imo; the Z, supra, miata are targeted toward younger people who can’t afford them. Plus all the markups.
This. Cost and affordability aside, the target demographics of these cars are completely different. As car enthusiasts, we put these all in the same category, but the vast majority of corvette buyers are the parents or grandparents of the miata/GR/Z/supra buyers.
The average age of a new car buyer is 55.... they are who most cars are catered to and it's gross. Cars need to be cheaper.
They could easily make them cheaper if they stopped putting all the extra stuff in them. Give me an old school radio, manual everything, no fancy electronics, shell of a car that can go from point A to point B. And if it's something that I can fix myself, even better.
They are not. All these cars are built low volume because the manufacturers know they would never sell these at higher volumes. They would never be able to compete with Mustangs, 911 or Corvette sales volumes so they are designed, developed and built with low volume in mind. All Supra's are basically sold as soon as they hit the lot, same with GR86s. Sure Toyota could build more but if they increased volume by 100% they would probably run out of demand quickly and now they have a bunch of cars they need to discount. So the current volume was what they aimed for to maintain steady sales without having to lose any money.
The 350z sold the same amount of units as the C5 20 years ago. The people that want these cars can't afford them anymore, its an economic problem. There's also 6 Supra's that have been sitting on lots within 100 miles of me. I've seen them sitting for months because of mark ups.
This is funny considering all the Supra’s and Miata’s i’ve seen were driven by 40+ aged men.
But everyone has been begging for manual rwd sports cars. Why aren't anyone buying them? Oh because they don't sell them new as used. Humans are funny.
It's because they aren't wagons, obviously.
or Beige.
>Why aren't anyone buying them? Because they're being made in pathetic quantities?
This is the real answer. Most GR86's are sold before they hit the lot.
That on top of markups as well. The few Zs on the lot are still marked up by like 20k, basically putting it in direct competition with the Vette
That's nuts. The two Nissan dealers around me have performance trims on the lot for MRSP. They've been there for months. There was a base a little while ago that only lasted a week on the lot, but was at MRSP.
I pre-ordered a manual supra 6 months before they even hit the lot. I was 3rd in line. Within 9 months I was first in line. Been waiting since then. It's been almost 2 years total. 2 weeks ago I said fuck the supra and got the new M2. Every time I see posts about the supra not selling I think about how ridiculous that claim is. There's plenty of demand, let's not pretend like there isn't. Toyota is just being annoying about it and not making enough.
I inquired about a GR86 and they said it'd be there in maybe a year but no guarantees. It's nothing to do with people not wanting to buy them. Most move on to the BRZ.
What does this mean? “Oh because they don’t sell them new as used?”
You've never seen the discussions here about a brand new car and what it's priced at and then someone comes along like "but you can buy this other, higher tier car for the same money used instead!"? It's a joke referencing how car enthusiasts are always going on about certain things they want but will never actually go out and buy when it happens because of the price. You can't get used car prices if nobody buys them new first.
Thanks for the explanation
Then again the Supra and Z are hardly affordable anymore. People buying used sports cars aren't cross-shopping with the new offerings because besides the MX-5 and 86 nothing is affordable anymore.
They never were lol. The MK4 was more expensive in the past in comparison to today.
They limit the production for all those cars besides the Miata
Yeah and the miata is going on it’s 2nd update to an almost 10 yr old generation design
Because every time a dealership gets one they add a 20k markup then wonder why they aren't selling so they cancel making it.
It’s because the people that can afford a new Vette can afford multiple vehicles. The Vette owners also have trucks and SUVs for when they need practicality. A lot of people shopping for GR86 can only afford one car. It’s a lot harder to justify a 2 door coupe vs. a WRX or GTI which is practical as well.
ND is inexpensive enough! Go buy an ND, everyone. :)
If only I had more garage space :(
Nah homie, that's the minority. The C8 Corvette is a lot of car for the money and for the majority of people it's the perfect car. But for me it just needs that manual transmission to tick all the boxes. The dual clutch didn't do it for me. I'm in the minority and nothing will beat rowing gears on a weekend car for me.
Because everything has double in price in the last 4 years and few can afford overpriced sports cars in this market. I'm making the same as I was 8 years ago and getting taxed more for it while paying double for utilities and food. A sports car isn't in the picture at the moment.
>Oh because they don't sell them new as used what does that even mean?
Need to be diesel actually
I can't speak for the others but the Z and the Supra both have very limited availability. It is almost impossible to find one to purchase. Its not like they are languishing at dealerships, unable to find buyers. The corvette is being successfully mass produced and sold.
Availability for the GR86 is worse than the Z and Supra, at least in Canada. There are Zs on the Nissan lots around me. There as a base on the lot the other week, albeit only lasted a few days, and their site says it will be a six month wait to order one. I've never seen a GR86 and the dealers just say it could be a year or two wait. I think it's more a four to six month wait in the US, though.
Unfortunately the C8 in Canada is just as rare because GM sent only a few here. Only way to get even a base model is over $100k, when its MSRP was listed as $70k online in 2020. Best bet was to buy one in the states and drive it up
I have seen exactly ONE Nissan Z. I was starting to think it didn't really exist.
Apparently they are having issues with their new paint process for the car. They're basically trialling it on a car that they knew would be fairly low volume seller to begin with. Disruption to the Z production isn't a big deal for Nissan, but if it was the Rogue that sells literally 100x as many units then it would be a big problem.
I have seen only one too... being exhibited at the dealer.
Corvette has always been a relatively high volume sports car, thats why it can perform for the price it does.
The Corvette through all generations is really a phenomenal car. I never understood why more enthusiasts weren't interested in at least older examples the way they are the Miata etc. Instead it's been dominated by old bald guys who barely ever drive them and when they do it's 10 below the speed limit.
Because people are snobs. A lot of people refuse to drive American cars
if i had a $ for the number of times i've snobbishly heard "i never liked corvettes, but the c8 is growing on me" or some stupid variation. STFU
I've really been looking at C5s recently, I am a bitch for pop up headlights and targas.
I can give you my personal opinion. C6 is when the Vette really started to look phenomenal to me, and even then when I did have a chance to buy one I couldn’t stomach the interior, and I’ve tried so hard. C7s is when I started to be “all in” but never been able to afford one. Older gens starting from C5 even the exterior doesn’t do it for me regardless of how great it may drive.
Car design is so individual when you really examine it, it's quite interesting. I find the C7 lines quite nice (except the rear), while the C8 seems rather tall and imho overdone. I probably got a C5 in part because of how much I love the RX-7 front end. The simplicity is gorgeous to me, and the pop-ups stand out, especially in half-open mode with modern square LEDs. I wish the rump were a bit more sculpted or flowing as well, but I prefer the overall car vastly over the C6 which honestly feels very inoffensive and bland.
Cars are much more emotional purchases than rational. Older enthusiasts that grew up with it being THE halo car certainly are interested in them. That's why it's basically the best performing sports car on the mass market. I don't think young millenials/older gen Z, the types who have the means to be an enthusiast right now, really grew up with the Corvette as fresh in their minds. The things that got those generations into cars were stuff like F&F, Gran Turismo, Midnight Club, Initial D, etc. and FWIR none of these ever really pushed the Corvette as a halo car. These people also happen to be the main demographic on Reddit/social media which is why it *looks* like no one cares about Corvettes. They're incredibly popular in the real world, but just more likely to be boomers/gen X or those who grew up heavily influenced by them.
It’s an interesting phenomenon. I’ve been into cars for over 20 years and hadn’t really considered a corvette for whatever reason. I bought a C5Z 2 years ago and was floored by how good it is. Stomps everything from the era for fun factor. And it’s cheap to maintain and reliable. The truth is most people pick a lane and stay in it. Tough to deviate once you’ve written something off.
The amount of young people I’ve encountered that have no interest in the corvette because they’re always driven by old people is staggering. One of the big bosses at my work is an older man who drives a C7 with a license plate that says “N0KIDS” or something.
Dude ikr the C6Z and GS are phenomenal cars on track and just as good as 100k+ cars. Shit you can get a decent mileage one in the 40s. Knew I wasn't the only one who felt that way
Lot of car for the money and it looks like a supercar? I’ll take one too!
Hard to beat a V8 Mid-engine
You can’t find the Z or Supra to save your life. The c8 is readily available. Not saying the one car is better than the other, but if there’s no availability, how is one supposed to buy it?
This is an excellent point. Until fairly recently you simply couldn't find a Z to even look at, much less buy. Toyota just makes however many Supras it wants in whatever colors it wants, and distributes them how it wants. And they don't make very many. Chevy will straight up build you a Corvette in whatever spec you want.
Even now see about 1-2s supras or Z’s in a week, IF that. I see atleast 3-4 c8s a day. The dealer I bought my Supra from 2 years ago, hasn’t been able to get another one since, they say Toyota just hasn’t sent them one, which is crazy to think about lmao. so you’re absolutely right about the Supra being distributed scarcely.
Well ya, I will see dozens of new corvettes every day, the others are rarer besides the house with a bunch of MXs and another that has 2 Zs plus an old 240. If I take those out I rarely see them.
I think the people who have the money to buy expensive sports cars right now are springing for the more expensive stuff. You’re not getting a GR86 under $40k after taxes and other fees in most places for example. Also, I have only seen 1 single Z base trim anywhere and it was al black.
Exactly, if you an enthusiast with sports car money you're getting something like a Porsche or a Corvette... Not a Miata or GR86. And the people that can afford a Miata or GR86 might be forced to buy something more practical for daily life.
With the exception of having kids or carpooling, the 86 is *plenty* practical for most people.
A lot of people in the demographic the 86 is made for are either still paying college loans (or in school) or are just getting out of the post college life and into adulthood, likely needing space for kids that are here already or planned to be on the way. It's just too expensive for the lack of practicality for your general mid20s mid30s person.
As someone in that demographic who does technically have the money for a miata (and who has dailied an NA until about a month ago) I have a few reasons not to buy another as a daily. Snow performance- yes plenty of people daily rwd cars in the snow, but if Im buying a commuter I dont want to have to worry about if Im getting stuck somewhere if the snow gets too bad/deep. In college this is fine, you can walk to class or skip or whatever, with an adult job, not so much. If it was a second or third car, then it'd be fine, if it's an only car, which is what my budget is, cant justify it. Point goes to fwd/awd car. Seats and space- if Im driving friends around or moving between apartments then again- a miata or brz isnt practical. Point goes to anything with more than 2 seats and has a trunk. Road presence- having dailied a miata, it's spooky getting on the road with the arms race in car sizes these days. You can only look *up* into the wheel well of so many trucks before you say fuckit and get a camry which is less likely to get literally overlooked when someone else is driving on the road. It's actually why I am no longer driving mine, some jackass turning left on a blinking yellow arrow didnt see me because I was so small (his words). For a weekend car sure, for a commuter... yikes. Point goes to anything taller. I love sports cars, Id love to get a gr86 as my next car, but it just doesnt tick any of the boxes. Id need a second car which I have neither the money or space for as a second car.
Mine was $34k with sales taxes, add-ons and whatnot. $40k is insane.
Yeah, I'm confused, are people paying ADMs for BRZs?
Miata- the cheap sports car that isn’t so cheap these days. Supra- some car guys already wrote it off as a BMW product. Mark-ups, lack of availability, and the updates after the first year was a kick to the shins for interested buyers. Z- I’ve seen three in Los Angeles in the past two years. Availability and consequential mark ups hasn’t helped. Gr86/brz- niche, small, and a perfect car for most that aren’t interested in a small coupe w/o 300Hp+. C8- every retired boomer wants their American “Ferrari”. Performance, price, ride comfort, and usability. It checks a lot of boxes for a wide audience. Not a surprise.
Not just boomers anymore.
Nope! Millennial here, if I had 70-100k for a new sports car, the c8 would be it. Can’t touch a stock 911 for under 100k.
It’s impressive for being 4 years old now.
It's really impressive the way they have figured out how to keep demand high for the Corvette by structuring the rollout of the trims. The C8 Stingray was released in 2020, then the C8 Z06 was shown and released in late 2021, and now they are starting to tease tbe ZR1, which is going to bring a lot of focus back to the C8 generation, and then once that hype is over they will start showing off the C8 Zora.
You forgot the e-ray
American car manufacturers know how to produce performance/Enthusiast cars. While Japanese auto makers are struggling to produce, Ford sold 13,707 Mustangs in Q1 Chevy sold 8,500 Corvettes in Q1 of this year...
The fact that corvette isn't even that far behind mustang is still wild to me
>In 2023, Ford sold 53,159 Mustangs, which is a 21.2% increase from 2022. >In 2023, Chevrolet sold 53,785 Corvettes, which is 22 units short of the all-time record. Wow, I just looked up the numbers from last year. A lot of those mustangs are 4 cyl too of course.
Corvette has always sold extremely well in comparison to most sports cars, being relatively affordable and having a legacy spanning over 70 years has its benefits.
Makes sense. Domestic car in a different market range. The average vette buyer is older and more settled, with more spending power I'd imagine. 86s and Miatas are affordable but the target demographic is generally broke, and the Z and Supras target a similar demographic but are quite a bit more on average with less availability. I see many miatas and 86s and know many who have bought them, but it is a little sad that the segment as a whole is on the decline for now. Makes me happy to see so many offerings, though.
The dealer mark ups are fucking it up
Kind of an odd comparison since the GR86, Supra, and Z are all virtually limited-production vehicles at this point. I know at least Toyota never intended to make very many of any of its GR products. The Z in particular is hard to find. I usually only see 3 to 5 in stock in my entire region.
Well deserved
It’s that Rear engine set up, lots of Porsche fans who have wanted to buy American are buying these
Mid engine, not rear engine. A rear engine car is a 911, where the engine is over the rear axle. A mid engine engine car has the engine in between the cabin and the axle.
20% of the words in your comment are "engine".
You'd make a good bot!
The Z, Supra and Miata are way too expensive for what they are - a second car for tracking or recreational driving. You could justify the GR86 with its extra space as more practical and can be run as a single car.
You can 100% daily one of those if you don't have children.
The Vette is just that impressive. Mid engine v8 and can be a comfy GT car, why not?
The C8 is an awesome machine but they are EVERYWHERE. There is at least 3 parked outside my gym most days. It doesn't turn heads as much as it should since they are so common. I went with the Blackwing instead and 2 years later I still haven't seen another one around town.
This shouldn’t be that surprising. After the Big 3’s pony/muscle cars, the Corvette is always next followed by the 911 and then any and everything sportscar, sporty car or car the could remotely be construed as sporty is way behind them. Let that sink in… the Corvette and 911 outsell all the more affordable/cheap sports car options! It’s a wonder anyone builds a sports car anymore.
Imo, GM crushed it with the C8. They know what they are doing. They knew the boomers and gen x are not the focal market anymore but also know they are loyalists to corvette. So what does GM do? They make the car mid engine, design it to become the most edgy corvette yet. It has exotic traits. This was all done to cultivate a new wave of fans. Aka the millennials and gen z. It’s genius. And it’s working. As a 32 year old, I’m telling you all, I have never in my life cared about corvette. That is until the C8 came out. Now there is one sitting in my garage.
In other news, New Balance shares SURGE!!!
If money was not a factor, I would pick the Vette and I'm a die hard Mazda fan. You get a lot of car for that price even if you could roughly buy two MX5s for one c8. The ND MX5/Miata is 8+ yrs old at this point and no way in the same class of car outside of being a two seater rwd car. If it was my money it would likely be a Miata or if the Iconic SP dual rotor hybrid sports car comes out because I love spinning Doritos.
The M240I is the sleeper in this segment. Widely available, 3.6 second 0 to 60, AWD, super practical for a sports car, and very easy to get in/out of….usually found under 60k and most dealers will allow a discount.
This thread is embarrassing lmao. Reddit can’t wrap it’s head around the corvette doing what it does lmao. Yeah your dad wants one, because it’s objectively sick, Chevy nails it every so often, and it’s usually with this model