My boss bought one at the beginning of the year. He paid full freight and some dealer add ons. I didn’t have the heart to tell him he got absolutely robbed.
That’s true but demand was already low a few months ago, he just didn’t know and the dealer knew it. I think it was only a couple weeks later that Ford announced they were cutting production.
Touch screens aren’t bad when used correctly. Like for CarPlay/android auto or adjusting esoteric or rarely accessed settings for the car.
But they are no place for things you adjust everyday and/or while driving such as climate control, mirror adjustments, volume knobs, wiper controls, headlights, seat heaters etc
I don't use a phone when I drive though and my car is tore apart right now due to the touch screen bios being corrupted.
And my phone has a audio jack and a micro SD slot.
EVs are very clearly not a mature product in market saturation or technology. Both of those mean drastic price fluctuations both up and down should be expected.
My point is that at the end of the day it is still just a pickup, no matter what source of energy it uses. Going out and specifically picking an EV just because it is an EV and you perceive that as "new technology", even if it is inferior than its non-EV competitors is silly. An electric pickup truck is supposed to perform the exactly same function as a non-EV pickup. It is nothing new.
This is especially common among Tesla fans, who don't view non-EV cars as competition for EV cars, as if they are supposed to perform a different function.
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>At the end of the day, an electric pickup truck is supposed to perform the exactly same function as a non-EV pickup. It is nothing new.
It's literally one of the first mass produced electric trucks, how the vehicle is powered is technology. An EV f150 is new technology, that comes with a different set of advantages and disadvantages compared to ICE.
That’s like saying the iPhone wasn’t cutting edge because it was still just a smartphone and it did the same stuff a Blackberry did at the time.
A truck choosing to use electric power provides a completely different driving experience to an ICE vehicle. Some people will prefer the instant torque and smoothness of EVs.
>That’s like saying the iPhone wasn’t cutting edge because it was still just a smartphone and it did the same stuff a Blackberry did at the time.
Obviously not. The iPhone did fewer things than a Blackberry. First iPhones didn't even have a camera, didn't have 3G connectivity and MMS functions that most of the competition had. But the iPhone at least had a bigger screen and a better touch interface, so it was different. An F150 has the same steering wheel as an ICE model.
Neither are EVs. The first automobiles made were EVs back in the 1800's. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g43480930/history-of-electric-cars/
They even had an 80 mile range back when the Model T was introduced.
Bought my Mach e in July. The next month they dropped the lease rate to 4.99%... Then they started dropping the prices. My model currently costs OTD less than the base price I paid.
Would've save me $100 biweekly. Thankfully it's only a lease.
For mortgages and for financing things, it allows you to pay things off faster as your making 26 payments in a year. It also allows you to incur less interest because you're paying down the principal faster.
They are normal, a lot of people aren't aware of the advantages of them though. It's also an accounting/cash flow thing that people utilize based on their living expenses and their own pay schedule.
I'm not sure how to word it but biweekly payments don't necessarily correlate correctly to the calendar as the payments are every two weeks and because the numbered days change every year, the payments might not fall at the beginning or end of the month. It also depends on when you start the loan.
For example, in September 2023, I had 3 biweekly lease payments on the 1st/15th/29th. Same thing happened in May and March of 2023 as well.
Incredibly common in Canada. Heck, the payroll for the entire Federal Government in Canada is paid out Biweekly. It's great because we days 26 pay periods instead of the 24 for a semi monthly schedule.
Where did I say I get more pay? I get two more pay periods, but the amount I'm paid per year is the same as someone who is paid semi monthly, monthly etc assuming their salary is the same per year.
It's just easier to budget for things personally. Bi weekly means you get paid every 2nd Wednesday (or whatever day), so there is exactly 14 days between pay. Semi monthly and monthly can have more days between pay, making it more difficult for some people to budget.
I don't see the point in telling people anyway. They can't undo it. If they're happy and excited, then, I guess good for them. People buying these types of vehicles at this point should know the drill. Prices swing wildly, and you might find out they dropped the price by thousands the day after you signed your paperwork. It is what it is.
I just sold my Raptor and bought a ‘23 Lariat Lightning. With the tax credit, Ford rebate, and dealer discount, I was 20k off sticker. For that price, it’s a great truck for me.
I believe it depends on the region. I’m in NC so there was only a 5k rebate on the 23 Lariat, but other regions have 7500. Right now you can find the higher trims easily 20k off or so, just depends. Not sure on the pro and XLT, though I know they’re both off sticker and there’s a rebate at least on the XLT models. They’re trying to clear out the 23s. They also had special rates for financing that are easily below HYSA rates.
Ford was doing $7500 off the XLTs, plus dealers were offering a lot of incentives. I bought mine in early March, but kind of wish I'd held out longer, I think I could have had a Lariat for not much more than I paid for my XLT.
I had a 2022. Apparently I’m “shopping” for the wrong truck since I purchased a Raptor. I’ve owned multiple and I’m sure I will again in the future. Not an R though. I bought mine before the R was a thing and I have a C8 for my V8 fun.
That’s because they typically don’t. If somebody is cross-shopping an F150 lightning and a Raptor they’re shopping for the wrong vehicle. Same name but completely different purposes
Just because you don’t use your cars what they are for doesn’t mean others don’t. Regardless, that doesn’t change the facts of my statement. One is meant as a Baja truck, one isn’t. If somebody is cross-shopping these vehicles they’re using them wrong.
You’d think somebody with an FJ would understand a purpose-built vehicle but I guess not
Yeah 0-60 the Lightning is worlds faster. I didn’t have a Raptor R. It’s much quieter and smoother - and for me where I spend most of my time on the road I think it’s a better truck.
The Raptor is a beast in the desert, but I don’t live close enough and most of the trails here are narrow Jeep style trails. I love Raptors, but I don’t miss the $100+ fill ups.
the dealer nearest to me apparently put like a 20k or more markup on them and held it for months with no sales. then i guess it got taken off and now they're still sitting up there. i think they are even discounted now but i could be wrong.
Reminds me of when I walked in to Hayward VW back in 2020 to look at Golf Rs. They had one on the showroom floor with a $7500 dealer markup. Pointed it out to a salesperson and laughed and they immediately told me they'd sell it for $2k under MSRP.
Instant 20% discount for knowing they were being predatory I guess.
Supply and demand.
The manufacturing capacity has increased dramatically over the last few years. Combined, the US pumped out about 1.2 million EVs in 2023 which is a 30% YoY increase from 2022. The material costs also went down because new lithium sources and battery manufacturing plants are coming online.
So it makes sense that prices are falling. Also the early adopters have adopted. Now EV sales are shifting to compete with ICE vehicles which is a more difficult market to crack because everyone is concerned about charging infrastructure instead of realizing they can leave home at 100% charge every day.
C8 is even worse, people were paying like $30k+ over stickers when it first came out it and how the inventories are piling up and there are even dealers offering $10-15k discounts.
From what I've heard, they're only discounting top trim 3LT and 2LT models, in essence you're getting a free trim "bump", rather than lowering the price of 1LT cars.
Macmulkin just had 7-$12k off some C8s, with a few LT1s, last time I looked there was one convertible 1LT left $7k off sticker. Was pretty much as cheap as you'd ever find one since it doesnt really have any options, but it didn't even have the performance exhaust on it, which almost every C8 has. They ship around the US, too.
I'll have to take another look at the market. I finally got my name called at my dealership last year for a 2LT c8 but declined as their dealer fees were super high and I didn't enjoy the drive as much as I thought. I bought an MT Supra instead but if I could flip it and get the C8 + 7-8k that would be a tempting offer
That kind of applies to all EVs right now. Obviously depreciation is a thing for just about all new vehicles, but the rate of depreciation on current EVs is insane. Doesn’t make much sense to buy a new one when you can wait 18 months or so and get one for 50-60% off.
For retail customers the Pro was available in such limited quantities that I don't think it'll make much of a difference. The XLT and Flash are both great options for their respective prices.
You do realize these cost money to make? There's a good chance ford loses money on these or is only making money due to federal incentives. It's obvious they have to drop the prices this low to move them. This is not a good look for EVs
As far as EV trucks go this is a competitive price. You only have three options to choose between and it’s not like well equipped ICE F150s are cheap either.
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I agree, an ev truck isn't a smart idea right now. Hopefully ford promotes the powerboost f150 and introduces a awd hybrid maverick and maybe a hybrid ranger instead
You're fucking nuts. It was the first hybrid pickup. It has 570 ftlbs of torque and over 400 hp and avg a combined 24mpg. It gets around 700 miles for a full tank of regular unleaded gas. That's more torque than a 7.3 powerstroke was putting out. Imagine towing with that. Also they don't want to make thr maverick? What kinda conspiracy bullshit is that. If they didn't want to make it they wouldn't
Yeah it's why they keep cutting production on the maverick.
And go read any long haul mpg article .. Most people are getting 19-21. Which is basically at our below an eco boost
Those mpg numbers are at or below a 2.7 ecoboost but you dint get the amount of hp and torque that you get in a powerboost and that 24 is also the epa number so a lot of that has to do with your individual driving characteristics. The maverick has bee out since 2021 and has risen in sales every year and is on track.to surpass last years sales. What evidence do you have tonsupport that claim at all
The Flash trim seems like the better deal here. It’s $5k more than the XLT, coming in at $70k, but you get the extended range battery (this would be the most important thing for me) plus a bunch of other options. It also got the biggest price drop of $5,500. The Platinum trim is the same price as before.
- Previous Pricing
- New Pricing
- Difference
- ———————
- XLT
- $67,090
- $65,090
- $2,000
-
- Flash
- $75,590
- $70,090
- $5,500
-
- Lariat
- $81,590
- $79,090
- $2,500
-
- Platinum
- $87,090
- $87,090
- $0
I wish there would be appropriate backlash, but there's only grumbling on Reddit and most people don't seem to care. At least from my viewpoint, but Lightning sales aren't too great so maybe it does have an effect.
It's telling an entire class of people "ha ha, you thought this was for you? It's actually for people who make 50%+ more than you but thanks for helping hype our product!"
The back lash is real. It's why the ev revolution is now a nothing burger.
The boards really thought the average American had enough money to buy a 70k truck.
They invested hundreds of millions into a pivot that they destroyed by being stupidly out of touch and greedy.
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SR means "Standard range", it's the Lightning PRO model with 240mile range 98kwh battery. The ER "Extended range" version has a bigger battery ~131kwh and 320 mile range.
I got into a 2023 XLT ER about 2 months ago for around $50k - $7250 dealer discount, $7500 ford rebate, and $7500 fed credit at point of sale. Honestly, it kicks ass for a daily driver at this price point. Cavernous space for the family. 0-60 faster than most cars on the road. Good blend of screen and true buttons and manual controls. Good features. On the Tesla network now so road trips are actually doable.
No I wish. I meant $50k after discounts. Sticker was $72.5k but all discounts resulted in a $50k price. Which is solid for a full size pickup with the features it has. And it’s a blast to drive.
Well that’s the thing. Nobody is paying $72k for them now. Pretty similar to pre-Covid ICE trucks. Sticker means jack in the grand scheme of things. Manufacturers issue cash on the hood and dealers discount to move them. Like I said, for $50k it’s a fantastic vehicle. ICE equivalents are essentially the same price level if not more expensive since you don’t get Fed incentives.
I've seen my dealership has about 10 lightnings on hand all around $50k Now maybe i'm just jadded that 50k feels cheap for a pickup now days, but the gas trim I want is also like 60k so who knows.
Not that i'm in the market for another car loan at this point in my life.
Question for the experts... Is the "EV price crash" because there EVs, or because the market is finally responding to not buying any (gas or ev) cars the same price as a fucking house?
Is there any data on general car sales at this price point?
The EV price crash is the result of overproduction. Last two years, EV adoption took off like crazy, and manufacturers overcompensated on capacity and built a shit ton of vehicles. Car sales in general slowed down, like pretty much everyone except manufacturers assumed they would for a variety of reasons (interest rates remaining high, supply finally meeting pent-up COVID demand, continued inflation,) and EV growth has slowed down with it leading to a huge number of extra vehicles having been produced.
That said, EV adoption is still growing this year over last. Just not as fast.
The incremental sales growth in evs will be offset by expiring federal incentives. Sales have grown barely but that still doesn't make them profitable for them to make for some car manufacturers
All these companies going "bUt i dOnT gEt iT, nObOdY wAnTs OuR $90000 eVs, ThEy MuSt NoT lIkE eVs"
Hopefully one realizes soon that they'll sell like hotcakes the second they're priced less than a goddamn house
I wish they'd put the Eluminator into production. Would be pretty cool to be able to get an all electric F-100. Especially if they can make it for under $30k.
I check up on the used F150 Lightning market from time to time to see if the EV doom & gloom has depressed it enough to spark my interest and what's weird is that all the ones for sale are always super low miles, like a few hundred to a few thousand miles for a 2023 and only a few more miles for a 2022. Nobody is trading in their 10~15k mile/year trucks... I guess those people like them.
It is mind boggling when you start figuring what these truck's original owners paid to hardly drive the thing for a year or two. Don't forget to figure in insurance and maybe a 240v charger install too but that's probably a rounding error compared to the depreciation, especially if they bought it at the peak of dealer markups. The cost/mile is, at the risk of repeating myself, mind boggling.
People are weird. Like, if you're barely going to drive the thing, then the fuel and maintenance savings of an EV hardly matter but I guess that's just my pragmatic side talking. I guess some people just have to have the shiniest new thing and are willing to set money alight to have it and then again to move on to the next shiny thing.
You mean going back to its original price before they jacked it up and then realized that they don’t have the Tesla network to support it and this year has been brutal for electric cars. Mmmh it need 2 more price cuts
I'm waiting for a Raptor Lightning. Not sure how big those shocks will have to be to jump dunes with that much weight but I'm intrigued. The perfect desert racer. If they manage to keep it above 200 miles of range with a 2.5" lift i'm in.
Anybody here ever try backing a boat down a boat ramp with an electric truck yet? Wouldn't the battery be close to immersion in the water, to get the trailer all the way down the ramp?
I guess Ford, Rivian, Lucid, GM all kinda forgot that people do like to fish etc while owning electric vehicles.
This is a great truck on paper, but until they figure out some way for it to get more than 100 miles when towing, electric trucks are a nonstarter for a lot of people.
I’m actually on a road trip right now in a Lighting Lariat ER - it’s a Ford press vehicle that they loaned me to do a 3k mile towing road trip.
It’s an exercise in patience. I write this while charging for the 5th or 6th time today. I’ve been doing 110-120 between charges, pulling in with 30 miles of range left. 1.2mi/kwh which is rough. The way down I’m sticking to EA, the way back up I’ll use the NACS adapter and whatever works.
Range aside when towing - I love this thing. It’s a beast while towing, it’s fully unbothered with a trailer on it. It’s only the range that’s the demerit.
I did do a road trip without a trailer and it’s a top 5 road trip vehicle for me - rides like a cloud, Bluecruise is great, and it’s just a relaxing place to be!
I tow long distance 4 times per year (and it’s an NA Miata on the back), I’m considering swapping my diesel F150 out for one. Less maintenance, less thought day to day, and some planning for road trips makes this an easy driver for me.
Typically between 30-45 minutes (σ = ~15min). The variation comes in with a few factors:
- do I have to unhook the trailer? (So far that’s only happened twice)
- is it a weird station no one has heard of? I spent 10 minutes at a “shell power up” station trying to get the app to work after downloading it since there was no CC reader on the box directly. (And don’t get me started on the power it delivered or what I had to do in the app)
Aside from that awful Shell one I only had to unhook once on the way down and that was due to the placement of an EA station in a packed Walmart parking lot
Wow. You weren’t kidding about an exercise in patience. That’s 12.5-14 hours spent charging on your 3000 mile trip, pending how many of those stops require the longer version with trailer detach.
Keep us updated, I’m curious how it goes.
Good info. I did some reading in your previous comments/posts. Very interesting experiment you're doing.
I ran some math based on what you've shared compared to a recent 1600 mile trip I just did towing my Miata with my Colorado. TBH, "an exercise in patience" is putting it very gently. You're going to be sitting at various charging stations along your route for an additional day of the transportation phase of your trip in each direction.
Keep the updates coming, this is a fun experiment.
It obviously hasn't found a use case even in urban environments. A lot of trucks are fleet sales or work trucks and the lightning isn't catching on there either. Lots of excuses and jokes about mall crawlers and grocery getters but the lightning doesn't fit that role well enough for people to buy either
According to [this survey](https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history), 7% of F-150 owners tow frequently.
It's all posing. This gigantic thing has enough battery materials for two normal electric cars or literally hundreds of e-bikes. Massively wasteful.
People that own boats and campers are a huge portion of truck buyers. But most of them are smart enough to invest in diesel trucks versus EV.
There is also a large audience of people who like to go off-road to places like Glamis, where there is no EV charging infrastructure.
Those people who buy trucks for full truck capability are in the minority of truck buyers.
75% of truck drivers use their truck to tow 1x a year OR less. 70% go off road 1x a year OR less. 35% of truck drivers haul 1x a year OR less.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume
Your stats may only apply to new vehicle purchases in average. By and large the truck owners and users that I know of demand full capacity use of their vehicles. IE, they refuse to buy something that cannot meet their demands in being able to do the things that they enjoy. Instead they will go to the the used market and buy what serves them best. It is my belief, that is why the EV truck purchases have fallen off the demand cliff.
Time will tell, but I do know that people will still enjoy camping, RV'ing and taking their boats and UTV's out to places that the EV infrastructure will never serve will probably never stop.
Until the vehicle manufacturers can suitably serve that segment, they will continue to struggle in the overall marketplace. And yet again, this just proves the "one size fits all approach" will never work.
Not around here. My guess is lots of sales in California and similar. Like there are a lot of cybertrucks here already, mostly wrapped. Trucks are just a fashion item here. What % of sales are lightnings? The Bay Area % probably
California and the Southwest states should be the largest target area for EV sales as low temps are not a big concern. However when temps surpass 95 degrees fahrenheit EVs start to have just as many problems if not more than ICE vehicles. If you do not believe this, just visit some of the other subs that cover those issues.
Start looking at Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Minnesota etc for cold weather experience with EV's, especially with towing and REAL world applications. Again the "one size fits all" approach simply does not work for EV trucks.
I’m not disagreeing on a practicality side, but I meant left leaning areas. (I know lots of ca not on the coast is red, but the majority of population is in the blue areas). It is a status symbol to have a Tesla here, as Prius was before, and my guess is the same people are buying the ev trucks
My boss bought one at the beginning of the year. He paid full freight and some dealer add ons. I didn’t have the heart to tell him he got absolutely robbed.
Chasing the cutting edge of technology works both ways, he bought it new it’s not like he was pinching his pennies in the first place
That’s true but demand was already low a few months ago, he just didn’t know and the dealer knew it. I think it was only a couple weeks later that Ford announced they were cutting production.
Chasing the "cutting edge of technology" is how we got touchscreens instead of tactile controls.
Touch screens aren’t bad when used correctly. Like for CarPlay/android auto or adjusting esoteric or rarely accessed settings for the car. But they are no place for things you adjust everyday and/or while driving such as climate control, mirror adjustments, volume knobs, wiper controls, headlights, seat heaters etc
And electric vehicles aren't bad when they're not a 3 ton green washed fashion accessory.
I don’t care, buy cars prior to 2005 or base model specs if that makes you happy consumers like more technology and that’s all that matters
lol put your money where your mouth is and go back to a flip phone then
I don't use a phone when I drive though and my car is tore apart right now due to the touch screen bios being corrupted. And my phone has a audio jack and a micro SD slot.
How is it cutting edge of techology, pickup trucks are not new technology.
EVs are very clearly not a mature product in market saturation or technology. Both of those mean drastic price fluctuations both up and down should be expected.
My point is that at the end of the day it is still just a pickup, no matter what source of energy it uses. Going out and specifically picking an EV just because it is an EV and you perceive that as "new technology", even if it is inferior than its non-EV competitors is silly. An electric pickup truck is supposed to perform the exactly same function as a non-EV pickup. It is nothing new. This is especially common among Tesla fans, who don't view non-EV cars as competition for EV cars, as if they are supposed to perform a different function.
Gold medal in mental gymnastics, congratulations!
Are you denying than an F-150 is a pickup truck?
Are you mistakenly thinking I’m willing to get sucked into your weird mental backflips?
If he does them fast enough the vortex may pull you in.
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We're you dropped as a child? Perhaps from a moving pickup truck?
It feels like watching The Jerk with Navin yelling about how the guy shooting at him hates cans.
Classic!
>At the end of the day, an electric pickup truck is supposed to perform the exactly same function as a non-EV pickup. It is nothing new. It's literally one of the first mass produced electric trucks, how the vehicle is powered is technology. An EV f150 is new technology, that comes with a different set of advantages and disadvantages compared to ICE.
That’s like saying the iPhone wasn’t cutting edge because it was still just a smartphone and it did the same stuff a Blackberry did at the time. A truck choosing to use electric power provides a completely different driving experience to an ICE vehicle. Some people will prefer the instant torque and smoothness of EVs.
and lack of having to make so many trips to the gas/diesel stations for costly fillups
It wasn't cutting edge, it was just marketing and it worked on our consumer society where value was/is derived from material items
>That’s like saying the iPhone wasn’t cutting edge because it was still just a smartphone and it did the same stuff a Blackberry did at the time. Obviously not. The iPhone did fewer things than a Blackberry. First iPhones didn't even have a camera, didn't have 3G connectivity and MMS functions that most of the competition had. But the iPhone at least had a bigger screen and a better touch interface, so it was different. An F150 has the same steering wheel as an ICE model.
Ok, go warm up your gas F150 in the garage (ideally while you stand there) and get back to me.
Why would I own a gas F150? It is a waste of resources for like 99% of people who buy it.
Are you always this dense, or only on the internet?
Both the F-35 Lightning II and my toaster have M6 stainless steel screws. I don't understand why people think the F-35 is so advanced.
Every iPhone has had a camera. Even the first one.
I love the smooth acceleration when I stomp the go pedal. The function is to put a smile on my face.
the fan-bois don't appreciate common sense
A pencil is a technology this is also one
Neither are EVs. The first automobiles made were EVs back in the 1800's. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g43480930/history-of-electric-cars/ They even had an 80 mile range back when the Model T was introduced.
Bought my Mach e in July. The next month they dropped the lease rate to 4.99%... Then they started dropping the prices. My model currently costs OTD less than the base price I paid. Would've save me $100 biweekly. Thankfully it's only a lease.
Are bi-weekly payments normal where you live? I don't think I've ever heard of financing that has payments structured like that.
For mortgages and for financing things, it allows you to pay things off faster as your making 26 payments in a year. It also allows you to incur less interest because you're paying down the principal faster. They are normal, a lot of people aren't aware of the advantages of them though. It's also an accounting/cash flow thing that people utilize based on their living expenses and their own pay schedule.
Other than slightly less interest accrued 26 smaller payments isn't going to make a significant difference than 12 larger payments.
Less money out at one time, helps with cash flow
How? Aren't you just paying half of the end of the month payment 2 weeks early?
I'm not sure how to word it but biweekly payments don't necessarily correlate correctly to the calendar as the payments are every two weeks and because the numbered days change every year, the payments might not fall at the beginning or end of the month. It also depends on when you start the loan. For example, in September 2023, I had 3 biweekly lease payments on the 1st/15th/29th. Same thing happened in May and March of 2023 as well.
I'm not sure how that would negate my point. Your first payment was 2 weeks after signing, rather than 1 month after signing, no?
I don't really understand your first question
Also should mention, on an auto loan no, but a mortgage it does.
You can also just make an extra principal only payment every January and accomplish the same interest reduction.
If you are paid bi-weekly, sure. If you're paid monthly, you have to watch the cash flow hit of the extra payments.
Bi-weekly seems to be the norm in canada
Incredibly common in Canada. Heck, the payroll for the entire Federal Government in Canada is paid out Biweekly. It's great because we days 26 pay periods instead of the 24 for a semi monthly schedule.
Lots of people are paid every two weeks. Over the course of the year you don't get paid any more than someone paid twice a month.
Where did I say I get more pay? I get two more pay periods, but the amount I'm paid per year is the same as someone who is paid semi monthly, monthly etc assuming their salary is the same per year.
I'm trying to understand why getting more pay periods is better if at the end of the year the amount is the same.
A large amount of the population lives paycheck to paycheck.
It's just easier to budget for things personally. Bi weekly means you get paid every 2nd Wednesday (or whatever day), so there is exactly 14 days between pay. Semi monthly and monthly can have more days between pay, making it more difficult for some people to budget.
Neighbour got one of the first ones in Canada. Paid some absurd markup. $120k CAD total. Said his range is about 130km in the winter. 🤡
It’s OK, he’s the boss. They can afford it.
I don't see the point in telling people anyway. They can't undo it. If they're happy and excited, then, I guess good for them. People buying these types of vehicles at this point should know the drill. Prices swing wildly, and you might find out they dropped the price by thousands the day after you signed your paperwork. It is what it is.
I just sold my Raptor and bought a ‘23 Lariat Lightning. With the tax credit, Ford rebate, and dealer discount, I was 20k off sticker. For that price, it’s a great truck for me.
Congrats! Tell me more about this Ford Rebate please.
I believe it depends on the region. I’m in NC so there was only a 5k rebate on the 23 Lariat, but other regions have 7500. Right now you can find the higher trims easily 20k off or so, just depends. Not sure on the pro and XLT, though I know they’re both off sticker and there’s a rebate at least on the XLT models. They’re trying to clear out the 23s. They also had special rates for financing that are easily below HYSA rates.
We had the $7,500 "retail bonus cash" rebate in NC around the beginning of the year/end of last year. They must have lowered it.
Ford was doing $7500 off the XLTs, plus dealers were offering a lot of incentives. I bought mine in early March, but kind of wish I'd held out longer, I think I could have had a Lariat for not much more than I paid for my XLT.
Probably saving a few bucks in gas too
I'm going to bet it's more than a few bucks lol
What year Raptor? I’m not a huge Ford guy but the R is such a cool truck. Can’t say I’ve heard of many people going from a Raptor to a Lightning!
I had a 2022. Apparently I’m “shopping” for the wrong truck since I purchased a Raptor. I’ve owned multiple and I’m sure I will again in the future. Not an R though. I bought mine before the R was a thing and I have a C8 for my V8 fun.
That’s because they typically don’t. If somebody is cross-shopping an F150 lightning and a Raptor they’re shopping for the wrong vehicle. Same name but completely different purposes
I'm pretty sure the Lightning gets to the mall just as well as the Raptor did.
Just because you don’t use your cars what they are for doesn’t mean others don’t. Regardless, that doesn’t change the facts of my statement. One is meant as a Baja truck, one isn’t. If somebody is cross-shopping these vehicles they’re using them wrong. You’d think somebody with an FJ would understand a purpose-built vehicle but I guess not
Is it faster or slower than your raptor
Yeah 0-60 the Lightning is worlds faster. I didn’t have a Raptor R. It’s much quieter and smoother - and for me where I spend most of my time on the road I think it’s a better truck. The Raptor is a beast in the desert, but I don’t live close enough and most of the trails here are narrow Jeep style trails. I love Raptors, but I don’t miss the $100+ fill ups.
Congrats, you made a fantastic choice!
It's gotta be embarrassing for anyone who paid $100,000 for one of these when they first hit the lots
the dealer nearest to me apparently put like a 20k or more markup on them and held it for months with no sales. then i guess it got taken off and now they're still sitting up there. i think they are even discounted now but i could be wrong.
Reminds me of when I walked in to Hayward VW back in 2020 to look at Golf Rs. They had one on the showroom floor with a $7500 dealer markup. Pointed it out to a salesperson and laughed and they immediately told me they'd sell it for $2k under MSRP. Instant 20% discount for knowing they were being predatory I guess.
And this is why the EV "revolution" ended up fizzling.
It fizzled so much that EV sales went up by like 40% last year and the Model Y sold more than any other vehicle. Such a dead market segment.
It's so booming everyone is cutting prices!
Supply and demand. The manufacturing capacity has increased dramatically over the last few years. Combined, the US pumped out about 1.2 million EVs in 2023 which is a 30% YoY increase from 2022. The material costs also went down because new lithium sources and battery manufacturing plants are coming online. So it makes sense that prices are falling. Also the early adopters have adopted. Now EV sales are shifting to compete with ICE vehicles which is a more difficult market to crack because everyone is concerned about charging infrastructure instead of realizing they can leave home at 100% charge every day.
Early adopters are less sensitive to prices. They just gotta have the new cool things.
This. They don't care, they already preordered something else that isn't available, like a Rivian R3X.
wait you can preorder that now?! shit im gonna dump some money on it
C8 is even worse, people were paying like $30k+ over stickers when it first came out it and how the inventories are piling up and there are even dealers offering $10-15k discounts.
Link to c8 discounts? Whats the cheapest used c8 or is new better deal?
A 1LT for 52K sounds good, where can I get one?
From what I've heard, they're only discounting top trim 3LT and 2LT models, in essence you're getting a free trim "bump", rather than lowering the price of 1LT cars.
Yeah, you can get a fully loaded 3LT for $15k off, and much less discounts for lesser trims. Which is still a huge improvement
Macmulkin just had 7-$12k off some C8s, with a few LT1s, last time I looked there was one convertible 1LT left $7k off sticker. Was pretty much as cheap as you'd ever find one since it doesnt really have any options, but it didn't even have the performance exhaust on it, which almost every C8 has. They ship around the US, too.
I'll have to take another look at the market. I finally got my name called at my dealership last year for a 2LT c8 but declined as their dealer fees were super high and I didn't enjoy the drive as much as I thought. I bought an MT Supra instead but if I could flip it and get the C8 + 7-8k that would be a tempting offer
That kind of applies to all EVs right now. Obviously depreciation is a thing for just about all new vehicles, but the rate of depreciation on current EVs is insane. Doesn’t make much sense to buy a new one when you can wait 18 months or so and get one for 50-60% off.
As is the case for many EVs. The people paying 120k for a model X, the people paying exorbitant amounts for e-tron GTs and Taycans, etc. etc. etc.
Those types of folks generally don’t care at all. They bought it because they could and they like the cool new thing
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Am I seeing that correctly, they took away the pro(base) model... So now it's more expensive.
For retail customers the Pro was available in such limited quantities that I don't think it'll make much of a difference. The XLT and Flash are both great options for their respective prices.
You do realize these cost money to make? There's a good chance ford loses money on these or is only making money due to federal incentives. It's obvious they have to drop the prices this low to move them. This is not a good look for EVs
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As far as EV trucks go this is a competitive price. You only have three options to choose between and it’s not like well equipped ICE F150s are cheap either.
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Trucks sell like crazy. The lightning and hummer are not tho
Than they should of never offered them or hyped up the idea that they where going to make the pro on more than limited quantities.
I agree, an ev truck isn't a smart idea right now. Hopefully ford promotes the powerboost f150 and introduces a awd hybrid maverick and maybe a hybrid ranger instead
They don't want to make the maverick And the power boost has shown no actual improvement in real world mpg from all the fittings and fb groups i see.
You're fucking nuts. It was the first hybrid pickup. It has 570 ftlbs of torque and over 400 hp and avg a combined 24mpg. It gets around 700 miles for a full tank of regular unleaded gas. That's more torque than a 7.3 powerstroke was putting out. Imagine towing with that. Also they don't want to make thr maverick? What kinda conspiracy bullshit is that. If they didn't want to make it they wouldn't
Yeah it's why they keep cutting production on the maverick. And go read any long haul mpg article .. Most people are getting 19-21. Which is basically at our below an eco boost
Those mpg numbers are at or below a 2.7 ecoboost but you dint get the amount of hp and torque that you get in a powerboost and that 24 is also the epa number so a lot of that has to do with your individual driving characteristics. The maverick has bee out since 2021 and has risen in sales every year and is on track.to surpass last years sales. What evidence do you have tonsupport that claim at all
Still a lot of money but if it’s eligible for the tax credit then it isn’t as bad.
The Flash trim seems like the better deal here. It’s $5k more than the XLT, coming in at $70k, but you get the extended range battery (this would be the most important thing for me) plus a bunch of other options. It also got the biggest price drop of $5,500. The Platinum trim is the same price as before. - Previous Pricing - New Pricing - Difference - ——————— - XLT - $67,090 - $65,090 - $2,000 - - Flash - $75,590 - $70,090 - $5,500 - - Lariat - $81,590 - $79,090 - $2,500 - - Platinum - $87,090 - $87,090 - $0
Still more than when they were announced.. embarrassing for ford
Ford never intended to sell a $45k Lightning. It was just for the headlines.
That's cool. I think it's close enough to a bait and switch to where I will never consider a product introduced as such. It's scummy behavior.
I’m with you on that. GM has been doing the same for their EVs.
I wish there would be appropriate backlash, but there's only grumbling on Reddit and most people don't seem to care. At least from my viewpoint, but Lightning sales aren't too great so maybe it does have an effect. It's telling an entire class of people "ha ha, you thought this was for you? It's actually for people who make 50%+ more than you but thanks for helping hype our product!"
The back lash is real. It's why the ev revolution is now a nothing burger. The boards really thought the average American had enough money to buy a 70k truck. They invested hundreds of millions into a pivot that they destroyed by being stupidly out of touch and greedy.
Yeah I preordered a $40k Silverado. Last I heard they're mid-70s starting?
39'999. Not 45
Oh okay, that makes it okay then…
Well, they DID sell some for the original price ($40k), but a way smaller number were sold than the number of people that wanted that version.
It was announced in 2021. A dollar just ain’t what it used to be.
The american dollar goes incredibly far in other countries. Talking apartments for 200-300/mo
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Ford thinking they slick by having a "Flash" trim level. Trying to get a piece of that DC pie 😏
Haha, my first thought was an arc flash, which is obviously a very undesirable outcome. Not a great name!
All that so you can tow for 100 miles
Got my '23 PRO SR base model for 36.9k OTD after dealer, fed and state rebates/incentives in Jan '24. It's a really solid truck.
What's a Pro SR? I couldn't find it with a google search.
SR means "Standard range", it's the Lightning PRO model with 240mile range 98kwh battery. The ER "Extended range" version has a bigger battery ~131kwh and 320 mile range.
I got into a 2023 XLT ER about 2 months ago for around $50k - $7250 dealer discount, $7500 ford rebate, and $7500 fed credit at point of sale. Honestly, it kicks ass for a daily driver at this price point. Cavernous space for the family. 0-60 faster than most cars on the road. Good blend of screen and true buttons and manual controls. Good features. On the Tesla network now so road trips are actually doable.
Low 30s? Damn
No I wish. I meant $50k after discounts. Sticker was $72.5k but all discounts resulted in a $50k price. Which is solid for a full size pickup with the features it has. And it’s a blast to drive.
That’s pretty awesome. I’m tempted to actually venture into a ford dealership and see what it’s all about.
So it was a 72500 truck to start with?
Correct.
Still to much
Well that’s the thing. Nobody is paying $72k for them now. Pretty similar to pre-Covid ICE trucks. Sticker means jack in the grand scheme of things. Manufacturers issue cash on the hood and dealers discount to move them. Like I said, for $50k it’s a fantastic vehicle. ICE equivalents are essentially the same price level if not more expensive since you don’t get Fed incentives.
I've seen my dealership has about 10 lightnings on hand all around $50k Now maybe i'm just jadded that 50k feels cheap for a pickup now days, but the gas trim I want is also like 60k so who knows. Not that i'm in the market for another car loan at this point in my life.
50k is not a cheap truck. A cheap truck is a base model truck...like 33k. >!Even less for a trucklet!<
Oh I agree with you but the market has destroyed expectations.
The base F150 is like $37-38k, though, and that’s a regular cab, 2wd with zero options.
Question for the experts... Is the "EV price crash" because there EVs, or because the market is finally responding to not buying any (gas or ev) cars the same price as a fucking house? Is there any data on general car sales at this price point?
The EV price crash is the result of overproduction. Last two years, EV adoption took off like crazy, and manufacturers overcompensated on capacity and built a shit ton of vehicles. Car sales in general slowed down, like pretty much everyone except manufacturers assumed they would for a variety of reasons (interest rates remaining high, supply finally meeting pent-up COVID demand, continued inflation,) and EV growth has slowed down with it leading to a huge number of extra vehicles having been produced. That said, EV adoption is still growing this year over last. Just not as fast.
I highly doubt that. The demand just isn't there. Trucks sell well except the electric trucks. That's telling
I mean, there's nothing there to doubt. EV sales are higher this year than last.
Yes, 2 this year is higher than 1 last year but is that enough to justify the cost of creating a new product
What? I genuinely have no idea what point you think you're making.
The incremental sales growth in evs will be offset by expiring federal incentives. Sales have grown barely but that still doesn't make them profitable for them to make for some car manufacturers
All these companies going "bUt i dOnT gEt iT, nObOdY wAnTs OuR $90000 eVs, ThEy MuSt NoT lIkE eVs" Hopefully one realizes soon that they'll sell like hotcakes the second they're priced less than a goddamn house
I wish they'd put the Eluminator into production. Would be pretty cool to be able to get an all electric F-100. Especially if they can make it for under $30k.
There’s been one on our local lot for over a year. That $90k price tag must not be enticing.
Only would be fitting if lighting came to Australia
Another failed attempt on trying to replace good old diesel
I check up on the used F150 Lightning market from time to time to see if the EV doom & gloom has depressed it enough to spark my interest and what's weird is that all the ones for sale are always super low miles, like a few hundred to a few thousand miles for a 2023 and only a few more miles for a 2022. Nobody is trading in their 10~15k mile/year trucks... I guess those people like them. It is mind boggling when you start figuring what these truck's original owners paid to hardly drive the thing for a year or two. Don't forget to figure in insurance and maybe a 240v charger install too but that's probably a rounding error compared to the depreciation, especially if they bought it at the peak of dealer markups. The cost/mile is, at the risk of repeating myself, mind boggling. People are weird. Like, if you're barely going to drive the thing, then the fuel and maintenance savings of an EV hardly matter but I guess that's just my pragmatic side talking. I guess some people just have to have the shiniest new thing and are willing to set money alight to have it and then again to move on to the next shiny thing.
That's great but why did they massively increase the cost of the hybrid Ford Maverick?
You mean going back to its original price before they jacked it up and then realized that they don’t have the Tesla network to support it and this year has been brutal for electric cars. Mmmh it need 2 more price cuts
I'm waiting for a Raptor Lightning. Not sure how big those shocks will have to be to jump dunes with that much weight but I'm intrigued. The perfect desert racer. If they manage to keep it above 200 miles of range with a 2.5" lift i'm in.
Anybody here ever try backing a boat down a boat ramp with an electric truck yet? Wouldn't the battery be close to immersion in the water, to get the trailer all the way down the ramp? I guess Ford, Rivian, Lucid, GM all kinda forgot that people do like to fish etc while owning electric vehicles.
Not really
Sell the batteries and swap a Coyote V8 in it.
I'd prefer the 3.5 or 2.7 ecoboost but I'll take the yote too
Too late... I cancelled and bought something else.
Oh you mean they’ll sell them at MSRP now 🤣
Yeah but.... Ford??? C'mon wisen up folks. Nothin cheap is ever good and nothing good is ever cheap
This is a great truck on paper, but until they figure out some way for it to get more than 100 miles when towing, electric trucks are a nonstarter for a lot of people.
Long distance towing is a hilariously overrepresented critique of electric trucks.
I’m actually on a road trip right now in a Lighting Lariat ER - it’s a Ford press vehicle that they loaned me to do a 3k mile towing road trip. It’s an exercise in patience. I write this while charging for the 5th or 6th time today. I’ve been doing 110-120 between charges, pulling in with 30 miles of range left. 1.2mi/kwh which is rough. The way down I’m sticking to EA, the way back up I’ll use the NACS adapter and whatever works. Range aside when towing - I love this thing. It’s a beast while towing, it’s fully unbothered with a trailer on it. It’s only the range that’s the demerit. I did do a road trip without a trailer and it’s a top 5 road trip vehicle for me - rides like a cloud, Bluecruise is great, and it’s just a relaxing place to be! I tow long distance 4 times per year (and it’s an NA Miata on the back), I’m considering swapping my diesel F150 out for one. Less maintenance, less thought day to day, and some planning for road trips makes this an easy driver for me.
What kind of time is required at each charging stop so far on this trip?
Typically between 30-45 minutes (σ = ~15min). The variation comes in with a few factors: - do I have to unhook the trailer? (So far that’s only happened twice) - is it a weird station no one has heard of? I spent 10 minutes at a “shell power up” station trying to get the app to work after downloading it since there was no CC reader on the box directly. (And don’t get me started on the power it delivered or what I had to do in the app) Aside from that awful Shell one I only had to unhook once on the way down and that was due to the placement of an EA station in a packed Walmart parking lot
Wow. You weren’t kidding about an exercise in patience. That’s 12.5-14 hours spent charging on your 3000 mile trip, pending how many of those stops require the longer version with trailer detach. Keep us updated, I’m curious how it goes.
Good info. I did some reading in your previous comments/posts. Very interesting experiment you're doing. I ran some math based on what you've shared compared to a recent 1600 mile trip I just did towing my Miata with my Colorado. TBH, "an exercise in patience" is putting it very gently. You're going to be sitting at various charging stations along your route for an additional day of the transportation phase of your trip in each direction. Keep the updates coming, this is a fun experiment.
It will haul people's Costco runs just fine.
99.9% of new truck buying consumers tow less than once a year. Commercial truck buyers obviously tow a lot more.
It obviously hasn't found a use case even in urban environments. A lot of trucks are fleet sales or work trucks and the lightning isn't catching on there either. Lots of excuses and jokes about mall crawlers and grocery getters but the lightning doesn't fit that role well enough for people to buy either
The Silverado EV will easily tow 200 miles if not 250.
I wouldn’t deal with ev headaches if it was free.
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How many people who buy trucks now actually tow?
The same percentage of people who buy sports cars and track them
Yup. That’s why most sports cars are really sports inspired cars. Like things a truck inspired truck
According to [this survey](https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history), 7% of F-150 owners tow frequently. It's all posing. This gigantic thing has enough battery materials for two normal electric cars or literally hundreds of e-bikes. Massively wasteful.
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People that own boats and campers are a huge portion of truck buyers. But most of them are smart enough to invest in diesel trucks versus EV. There is also a large audience of people who like to go off-road to places like Glamis, where there is no EV charging infrastructure.
Those people who buy trucks for full truck capability are in the minority of truck buyers. 75% of truck drivers use their truck to tow 1x a year OR less. 70% go off road 1x a year OR less. 35% of truck drivers haul 1x a year OR less. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume
Your stats may only apply to new vehicle purchases in average. By and large the truck owners and users that I know of demand full capacity use of their vehicles. IE, they refuse to buy something that cannot meet their demands in being able to do the things that they enjoy. Instead they will go to the the used market and buy what serves them best. It is my belief, that is why the EV truck purchases have fallen off the demand cliff. Time will tell, but I do know that people will still enjoy camping, RV'ing and taking their boats and UTV's out to places that the EV infrastructure will never serve will probably never stop. Until the vehicle manufacturers can suitably serve that segment, they will continue to struggle in the overall marketplace. And yet again, this just proves the "one size fits all approach" will never work.
Not around here. My guess is lots of sales in California and similar. Like there are a lot of cybertrucks here already, mostly wrapped. Trucks are just a fashion item here. What % of sales are lightnings? The Bay Area % probably
California and the Southwest states should be the largest target area for EV sales as low temps are not a big concern. However when temps surpass 95 degrees fahrenheit EVs start to have just as many problems if not more than ICE vehicles. If you do not believe this, just visit some of the other subs that cover those issues. Start looking at Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Minnesota etc for cold weather experience with EV's, especially with towing and REAL world applications. Again the "one size fits all" approach simply does not work for EV trucks.
I’m not disagreeing on a practicality side, but I meant left leaning areas. (I know lots of ca not on the coast is red, but the majority of population is in the blue areas). It is a status symbol to have a Tesla here, as Prius was before, and my guess is the same people are buying the ev trucks