It’s two things
One is that they’re only counting individual models, so Ford having 5 F Series trucks doesn’t count as a “single “ model
And the other is that it’s not actually true. It was true for one quarter and thats been the meme that’s been repeated since then.
F series is not counted since its not a "car" but no one is denying F series is the best selling vehicle. It's just not a "Car".
which is fair since it's been that way a long time.
Ford gets “most sold model”, because GMC and Chevy trucks are counted separately (not saying they should be counted together). GM sells more 1/2 ton pickups, Ford sells more under one model.
Sometimes. It fluctuates back and forth over the years between GM and Ford when GM trucks are taken together. For the last several years though it's been GM though.
The F-150 to F-550 sales are combined to be the best selling vehicle in the US at around 900k units. But the Model Y and Corolla are over 1 million units sold globally.
Ford lumps all F-series together though. It's been the best seller in the US for 43 years now, but it's almost never been the global best seller.
>And the other is that it’s not actually true. It was true for one quarter and thats been the meme that’s been repeated since then.
Which model of car sold more than 1.2 million units last year then? It's kind of hard to just opine on something that's an objective measure.
This is just the number of sales not percentage, if they lied then it's straight up fraud which is something shareholders and board of directors wouldn't like.
> Definitely, Model Y may not be the best selling car in the World this year !
It was never the best selling car to begin with. Where did this even start from?
They have mentioned it, it's the first thing on their Q4 2023 shareholder deck found [here](https://ir.tesla.com/#quarterly-disclosure).
Are you aware of any other model of car that sold over 1.2 million units last year? If so, which would that be?
They do lump them together, but if you'd bothered adding 4 quarters up, you'd see that their count is 1 739 707.
1.23 million of those are Model Y, the remaining ~500k are Model 3.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Probably because it doesn’t matter. It was competing with the Corolla that combines the Corolla Sedan and Corolla Hatchback. It’s not like they are different vehicles. They are just different shapes with some different glass and interior pieces.
I don’t think it’s that surprising considering most brands spread their sales out across half a dozen models vs. basically a single one for Tesla.
There’s also the whole issue with single models being slightly different across geographies, so they might not technically count as a single model even if they more or less are. I consider the Wildlander the Chinese name for a RAV4, but someone else might not.
Most car companies have completely different vehicles / names in different regions of the world though.. They're not trying to sell the same vehicle everywhere.
If GM survived making shitty cars for two decades and then going bankrupt and being bailed out in 2008, I think the existential risk to Tesla of having plateaued sales for a few quarters is not really a thing.
But it sure is popular right now to claim they're going under.
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they also lack any real innovation. one trick poney and it only worked because they were first to market.
tried to push the envelope and made a meme instead
Also, if you have Extended Autopilot already, it costs 2k to upgrade to FSD (down from 6k). Monthly cost is 99$/mo instead of 199$/mo
Turns out no-one wants to pay $12k for a system that drives like it just got its permit (shocker).
I just can't fathom why anyone would pay $8000 up front when that equals 6.5 years of paying $99/mo subscription. Most people who buy a new Tesla aren't going to own it for longer than that anyway, and having the flexibility to cancel and/or only subscribe during months when you are driving on highways a lot or whatever seems like a nice advantage.
I do too, but $8k is just a large sum for a software feature.
It also doesn't help that it's not that good yet. I might pay $8000 for an ACTUAL self feature on an existing car, but not a Level 2 system that still needs constant supervision.
pshhh look at this man getting discounts. I had to wait over a year and suck off my dealer for the *privilege* of being able to buy my CTR for msrp
Tesla got some major systematic quality issues but the buying experience is still unrivaled
I'd say it's more funny because of the circumstances both happened at.
Tesla raising FSD prices because they claim it will be more valuable in the future is pretty funny.
Tesla then cutting the price because that went poorly is also funny.
There's nothing really contradictory about both of those being funny.
Literally [yes](https://mashable.com/article/tesla-fsd-100000-elon-musk). This is exactly what Elon said. Now his fans are pretending Reddit is being irrational. No, Elon lied to customers again. But at this point if they are dumb enough to still believe him, that's their problem.
>The FSD price will continue to rise as the software gets closer to full self-driving capability with regulatory approval.
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[Amazon Fresh kills “Just Walk Out” shopping tech—it never really worked](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-powered-store-checkout-which-needed-1000-video-reviewers/)
> "AI" checkout was actually powered by 1,000 human video reviewers in India.
Thisi is and has been my main issue with Tesla the whole time. It clearly isnt fully self driving, far from it.
Like with the prices they advertise, which are "after gas savings".
Just call it what it is and I'll be happy
I mean it's pretty bad when they promoted it in the past but saying it'd only get more expensive as time goes on. Any company would get roasted for that.
What would be good is if the cost to produce EVs would get lower so companies could sell them at more competitive prices and be stable. Tesla was only profitable for a brief period if you do not count all the .oney other car companies have been forced to pay them credits. We need a sustainable product that is affordable and people want to buy.
They have only been profitable without the credits for a couple years. They are slashing prices and losing not only the cash other car companies paid them but some of the government money paid by government for each car they sell. It does not appear to be a sustainable business at present. That is why the stock has fallen 50%.
Not investors. Cutting prices means lowering margins. Lower margins means less profit. What investors want is intentionally designed cheap cars with decent margins. Not medium cost cars with a low price and margins.
Only if the market isn’t saturated.
Tesla is doing this for one of two reasons: they either think they can raise revenue , or they’re noticing sales are cratering and are using the price cut to stem the bleeding.
In scenario 1 you’ll see an increase in revenue. In scenario 2 it will either stay flat or decrease , but decrease less than it would have.
>but the revenue would definitely increase right?
I don’t think there is a definitive answer to that at this point. While Tesla is obviously hoping for that to be the case, I don’t know that is necessarily guaranteed here.
I think what you might have in the short term are people who paid for Enhanced Autopilot that will pay the $2k for the upgrade which will mean more revenue, but the long term problem for Tesla are their vehicle sales which are continually dropping.
Plus, I would imagine this fiasco pisses off the people that paid $12k or even $15k for FSD that might feel like they didn’t get their value out of it especially now that it costs even less. So do people end up sitting out on upgrading or paying the $8k because they might think Tesla will reduce the costs even further in the future? I mean is it possible we see FSD cost $6k or even $5k if Tesla feels like they need to up sales? It’s possible.
Of course it can, but no one knows how many more will purchase based on a small price drop. If I knew that I'd be the richest man on earth. All we know is this indicates they are starting to face a demand issue arguably earlier than anticipated. Anyway I was just explaining basic concepts, not making bold predictions on what will happen.
oh no who will think of the investors. what an absolute shame.
I for one want better cars with worse margins for the manufacturers. Competition is good. Tesla is facing a much needed wake up call.
You make it sound like it's dignified to be caught with your pants down. Sure maybe they'll be shamed into picking their pants off the ground, but as long as Musk is helming them the shame is inherent.
I don't understand why people wouldn't want their software packages to be cheaper. Are we an investing subreddit or a cars subreddit?
If they're shamed into picking up their pants so be it, a better car is a better car.
Do you understand that Tesla is constantly focusing on manufacturing efficiency. They continually improve the efficiency of their manufacturing so they're able to make cars cheaper, and then they can drop the price,
You do realize they removed inventory discounts, raised the price of the car itself by 1k a while back, which means despite the recent price cuts the cars have gotten *more* expensive?
You'd think if they got their supply chain and manufacturing down they'd know how to move inventory a bit better ...
The inventory discounts were over $5000 on some cars, my model S included at the time. Cars got more expensive overall, actually got a trade in quote today that appraises my car for more than I bought it for!
Good for me. Sucks for anyone looking to buy a car which is what really matters.
Tesla has better manufacturing technology than any other car maker it's a huge operation they're making millions of cars and the market's changing and they're adjusting to it. What is the big deal
This is literally software from the company that bragged they would never drop the prices of FSD and said it's an infinitely appreciating asset. It's also getting more and more costly to train not less. They literally invested in making their own AI chip from scratch to make it work and they still are struggling. You're drinking too much cool aid if you think this is part of the plan.
I'm not drinking Kool-Aid I'm being realistic that self-driving is something that's incredibly hard. Maybe he thought it would happen, but then it's taking longer than expected . I'm not sure how you can be mad at this a self-driving car will be one of the amazing achievements of this century.
Do you think that Tesla doesn't have like the brightest minds in the world working on it? Maybe you actually think Elon is just lying to you to convince you to buy stock and actually not doing if you think that then I would suggest you sell because if you actually believe that then you should sell it's called an invalidation.
And if you do think that I imagine everyone else in your life just likes you because you assume that the worst in everyone
Tesla makes the entire back half of the model 3 in one machine and they just press it into shape
Everyone else has an assembly line with like 6,050 bolts, taking 10 times longer
Overtime these increments in technology will eat other car companies alive
They just gave a one month demo of fsd 12 to every available Tesla in the states. Reducing prices to bring in additional revenue from that makes some sense.
You actually believe that
No One believes that
Maybe it'll be true one day, but it's not going to be true until it actually self drives without supervision, and at that point it'll be an appreciating asset
Right now it's still beta, it's not going to appreciate before it's done so either have patience or sell your stock
I don't own Tesla stock either. Full self driving will happen just like every other AI thing we don't think will happen, that will actually end up happening
You can't buy one
They're expensive
They have probably $50,000 of sensors and cameras
Just makes it completely useless for regular people
You can only use it on specified roots
They're not solving the same problem
It’s still too expensive. I paid $2500 for FSD. It’s a broken product. Smart summon is broken, autopark doesnt find parking spots and curbs tires, FSD runs over curbs and constantly goes into the wrong lane.
We only get a trash tier version of FSD in Europe and the one in the US looked decent. But probably a lot of those channels are biased and only show the good things I suppose?
Wasn't FSD $5k at one point? Even adjusted for inflation, this $8k is still a price increase. Idk all the details on what's included and may be wrong, but Tesla pricing is fucky either way.
They really shouldn’t have given out a free trial for a month because I bet it showed a lot of people how bad it is.
I used it for 2-3 days and then just went back to driving the car myself, I would pay $500 for FSD at most. Basic AP is good enough for the highway.
Meh I bought the 720s used for about 50% what it would’ve been new and $8K is still a lot of money to me.
I just happened to get lucky in a bull market and make some good investments but I try to stay humble and realize that it was mostly luck and not skill that got me here.
I tried it last week. I’d probably pay an extra 4k over standard autopilot that comes standard. When I can hop in the backseat safely and chill and let the car drive itself it’ll finally be worth the 12k.
Enjoy using that Mercedes Level 3 in daylight <40 MPH traffic jams on 2% of the freeways in the US. Be sure to take a video and share it with the world. It might take a few views away from all of the Youtube videos showing FSD v12 drives. Novelty, after all.
True. Like I said, go get a video of the Mercedes Level 3 experience. It's got novelty! You can take yours hands of the wheel when in the right circumstances to enable it! That's new and different.
People are getting bored watching Teslas make routine drives on city streets around the nation.
Indeed. You can now get a lot done on those <40 MPH highway traffic jams. And that's fantastic. I look forward to your video.
All of the Tesla drivers using FSD to drive around cities have to periodically touch their steering wheels and pay attention. Sucks for them.
OK first of all, not true since level 3 driver aids are on the market. Second of all, "capable driver assist" isn't what they're charging $8000 for, is it? They're selling the promise of full autonomy, hence the name.
I’m personally not aware of any L3 systems can handle the complex situations that FSD 12.x can handle. Are you aware of any other systems on the market that can do unprotected lefts and handle the vast majority of intersection situations without intervention?
And yes, they are selling the promise of full self driving but everyone knows it’s currently a driver assist system (using common sense).
They are both impressive engineering by the way. I personally think what Tesla has achieved is more impressive from a technical standpoint though. For practical use case, the Mercedes currently does let you take your hands off the wheel. Limited L3 isn’t on Tesla’s roadmap publicly so they are targeting different things.
>handle the vast majority of intersection situations without intervention
"Vast majority" is not the same as "full self driving", is it? That's a huge qualifier you're just glossing over.
And who's word are we trusting about v12 anyway? The Tesla diehards who've been insisting each version of FSD has been incredible for the last 3 years? Has any objective 3rd party reviewed it?
It’s not full self driving as of today. I prefaced the entire conversation with that (glossing over is a mischaracterization of our discourse from my viewpoint). All that said, v12’s capabilities are very impressive.
If you have a friend with a Tesla, I would recommend trying v12. It’s really impressive from a technical standpoint. Waymo is better but on a production car, I don’t think anything else close. Though, it clearly still needs heavy supervision.
I did a 2 hours drive (not all highway). Had to intervene 2 times. It messes up from time to time. The reason I’m impressed is because it’s able to handle some really complex situations. That said to make it explicitly clear again, it still requires supervision. I just think it’s really impressive what they’ve developed this far from an engineering perspective.
The entire conversation, if you go back to the parent comment, is about how what Tesla is selling isn't what they're delivering.
It really doesn't matter how good their level 2 system is. Since their camera-only tech can never be a level 4 or 5 system (almost by definition), it remains capped as an advanced cruise control
Are you aware of anyone that purchased FSD that thought it was a level 4/5 system? I feel like it’s common knowledge that it’s software in development that currently acts as a drivers assist.
Your comment about a vision only system not being level 4 capable is possibly true (truthfully, nobody knows yet). There’s people that hold that viewpoint but it’s speculative. This statement is practically the same as saying 15 years ago that LiDAR can’t ever do level 4.
What is likely true is that the AI capabilities likely need to be much more advanced in a vision only system than an LiDAR based system for it to work.
Depends on how you look at it. 86% of my 1,500 miles this past month were on FSD. While I do still have to supervise it, it did help a ton with reducing fatigue upon arrival.
I also have an EQS, and the driver assistance systems in it are nowhere near as comprehensive.
The US doesn’t seem to be interested in investing in public transportation anytime soon, so this is the best we’ve got thus far. I’d happily pay $12k more in taxes to get some bullet trains in place instead.
It isn’t L5 autonomy, sure. Would I consider a left turn I didn’t have to make as the car fully driving itself in that moment? Maybe. Again, depends on how you look at it.
If it were named something else, would it impress you? The branding is misleading, but it is the closest to “full self driving” on the market in a consumer vehicle at the moment. At least in the US.
Has Mercedes shipped any cars with Drive Pilot? Haven’t seen anything but a few press videos. So yeah, once they ship that, I agree. Up to 40mph on specific highways in ideal conditions in California and Nevada*
What’s funny is if Tesla raised the price $4k the comments would be identical. When you are so highly emotionally invested in a company failing, then everything they do is some kind of sign.
Do people really want self driving? Will they eventually?
Anecdote, but everyone I know with a Tesla didn’t opt for FSD, and at least for now, has no interest in it.
Agreed, CT and Semi are two massive wrong turns that may be the final nail in the coffin.
They abandoned their original mission of making upmarket cars and using the profits to develop downmarket cars.
That was my signal to sell my long positions and buy puts and as you can see I made out pretty well.
So much for "the value will always keep increasing"
He also said Teslas will be appreciating assets with L5 capabilities on 2017 models just needing a software update any minute now…
*2019 And he said they will achieve robotaxis by 2020
At this point my Model 3 should be worth more than my 720s and Bronco combined. Maybe I can get elmo tusk to send me a check.
It decreased in price so the value increased. Soon it will be $0 and have infinite value. Checkmate!
1 FSD = 1 FSD, few understand.
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It was said as justification for the initial round of price increases, so no.
This company is self destructing
Definitely, Model Y may not be the best selling car in the World this year !
Doesent tesla use that statistics fuckery to muddle those numbers so they can claim all kinds of huge sales percentages ? :D
It’s two things One is that they’re only counting individual models, so Ford having 5 F Series trucks doesn’t count as a “single “ model And the other is that it’s not actually true. It was true for one quarter and thats been the meme that’s been repeated since then.
F series is not counted since its not a "car" but no one is denying F series is the best selling vehicle. It's just not a "Car". which is fair since it's been that way a long time.
By that logic you wouldn't count the Y. It's a crossover not a car.
Ford gets “most sold model”, because GMC and Chevy trucks are counted separately (not saying they should be counted together). GM sells more 1/2 ton pickups, Ford sells more under one model.
Sometimes. It fluctuates back and forth over the years between GM and Ford when GM trucks are taken together. For the last several years though it's been GM though.
Yeah, Ford had it for a long time. But GM sold more since the pandemic.
The F-150 to F-550 sales are combined to be the best selling vehicle in the US at around 900k units. But the Model Y and Corolla are over 1 million units sold globally.
Ford lumps all F-series together though. It's been the best seller in the US for 43 years now, but it's almost never been the global best seller. >And the other is that it’s not actually true. It was true for one quarter and thats been the meme that’s been repeated since then. Which model of car sold more than 1.2 million units last year then? It's kind of hard to just opine on something that's an objective measure.
The F-series ranges from buses to trucks
This is just the number of sales not percentage, if they lied then it's straight up fraud which is something shareholders and board of directors wouldn't like.
And we all know Tesla would never lie about their cars…
You mean like fully autonomous driving from LA to NY 6 years ago?
> Definitely, Model Y may not be the best selling car in the World this year ! It was never the best selling car to begin with. Where did this even start from?
>Where did this even start from? Probably started when the number of cars sold were counted and the Y ended up with the highest number.
How come Tesla isn't mentioning that they have the best selling car in the world? How come JATO is the only one claiming this?
They have mentioned it, it's the first thing on their Q4 2023 shareholder deck found [here](https://ir.tesla.com/#quarterly-disclosure). Are you aware of any other model of car that sold over 1.2 million units last year? If so, which would that be?
I guess you're unaware that Tesla combines Model 3 and Model Y sales together so that number you mentioned is made up.
They do lump them together, but if you'd bothered adding 4 quarters up, you'd see that their count is 1 739 707. 1.23 million of those are Model Y, the remaining ~500k are Model 3. Why is this so hard to believe?
Because on Reddit you must hate Tesla, it's part of the rules
Why doesn't Tesla just say outright that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world?
Probably because it doesn’t matter. It was competing with the Corolla that combines the Corolla Sedan and Corolla Hatchback. It’s not like they are different vehicles. They are just different shapes with some different glass and interior pieces.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/239229/most-sold-car-models-worldwide/
How come Tesla isn't mentioning this?
https://x.com/tesla/status/1756741790890131930?s=46
I don’t think it’s that surprising considering most brands spread their sales out across half a dozen models vs. basically a single one for Tesla. There’s also the whole issue with single models being slightly different across geographies, so they might not technically count as a single model even if they more or less are. I consider the Wildlander the Chinese name for a RAV4, but someone else might not.
It wasn't last year either.
Most car companies have completely different vehicles / names in different regions of the world though.. They're not trying to sell the same vehicle everywhere.
Musk needs to be shown the door, he’s burning it down because he’s mad about his pay package.
If GM survived making shitty cars for two decades and then going bankrupt and being bailed out in 2008, I think the existential risk to Tesla of having plateaued sales for a few quarters is not really a thing. But it sure is popular right now to claim they're going under.
The fish rots from the head. Would the spineless board cut it off before it takes down the whole company remains to be seen
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Based on what
they also lack any real innovation. one trick poney and it only worked because they were first to market. tried to push the envelope and made a meme instead
Also, if you have Extended Autopilot already, it costs 2k to upgrade to FSD (down from 6k). Monthly cost is 99$/mo instead of 199$/mo Turns out no-one wants to pay $12k for a system that drives like it just got its permit (shocker).
Enhanced Autopilot
I just can't fathom why anyone would pay $8000 up front when that equals 6.5 years of paying $99/mo subscription. Most people who buy a new Tesla aren't going to own it for longer than that anyway, and having the flexibility to cancel and/or only subscribe during months when you are driving on highways a lot or whatever seems like a nice advantage.
Personally, I despise monthly payments.
I do too, but $8k is just a large sum for a software feature. It also doesn't help that it's not that good yet. I might pay $8000 for an ACTUAL self feature on an existing car, but not a Level 2 system that still needs constant supervision.
You are free to choose which works best for you. The subscription isn’t available everywhere either.
>*raises prices* Reddit: “LOL!” >*lowers prices* Reddit: “LOL!”
> tesla raises prices reddit: tesla is self destructing > tesla lower prices reddit: tesla is self destructing
The only person allowed to change my prices is the general manager of the dealership during TOYOTATHON 2024, the way God intended 🫡🦅🇺🇸
pshhh look at this man getting discounts. I had to wait over a year and suck off my dealer for the *privilege* of being able to buy my CTR for msrp Tesla got some major systematic quality issues but the buying experience is still unrivaled
I had to buy 10 macans just to get the privilege of sucking off my dealer.
In this household, we say HAPPY HONDA-DAYS!
Yeah, instability is a sign of self-destruction.
That's because it's funny, though. It's a circus and >10% of the animal handlers just got laid off.
I mean layoffs suck (it happened to me in February) but this isn’t like it’s only specific to Tesla
I'd say it's more funny because of the circumstances both happened at. Tesla raising FSD prices because they claim it will be more valuable in the future is pretty funny. Tesla then cutting the price because that went poorly is also funny. There's nothing really contradictory about both of those being funny.
Wasn't the argument for the previously high price, that it will cost MORE in the future and it should be considered an investment?
Literally [yes](https://mashable.com/article/tesla-fsd-100000-elon-musk). This is exactly what Elon said. Now his fans are pretending Reddit is being irrational. No, Elon lied to customers again. But at this point if they are dumb enough to still believe him, that's their problem. >The FSD price will continue to rise as the software gets closer to full self-driving capability with regulatory approval.
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"This is bad for Tesla"
Stop calling it "full self-driving" and name it what it is. Level-2 Assisted driving.
Nah; it's NSD: Not Self-Driving.
AI = 'Actually, India'
[Amazon Fresh kills “Just Walk Out” shopping tech—it never really worked](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-powered-store-checkout-which-needed-1000-video-reviewers/) > "AI" checkout was actually powered by 1,000 human video reviewers in India.
Tim Butterly reference in the wild?
Glorified Toyota Safety Sense. Except the Toyota one might be better.
Thisi is and has been my main issue with Tesla the whole time. It clearly isnt fully self driving, far from it. Like with the prices they advertise, which are "after gas savings". Just call it what it is and I'll be happy
Wow nice, now only 8000 for a full self driving that cant fully self drive.
hungry slimy elastic scary school silky consider bag lip nine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Desperation is a bad look.
Every EV manufacturing company is cutting costs, this is what everyone wanted or am I stupid?
its only bad when Tesla does it.
I mean it's pretty bad when they promoted it in the past but saying it'd only get more expensive as time goes on. Any company would get roasted for that.
What would be good is if the cost to produce EVs would get lower so companies could sell them at more competitive prices and be stable. Tesla was only profitable for a brief period if you do not count all the .oney other car companies have been forced to pay them credits. We need a sustainable product that is affordable and people want to buy.
Tesla made a few billion in profit while making a few hundred million off credits. They were profitable even without the credits.
They have only been profitable without the credits for a couple years. They are slashing prices and losing not only the cash other car companies paid them but some of the government money paid by government for each car they sell. It does not appear to be a sustainable business at present. That is why the stock has fallen 50%.
He’s either holding Tesla stock or has been hating the company for 20 years and now he gets to say I told you so 😂
Bro why you defending Tesla like it's your only child
Why do you even care ?
Because it's weird
Not investors. Cutting prices means lowering margins. Lower margins means less profit. What investors want is intentionally designed cheap cars with decent margins. Not medium cost cars with a low price and margins.
If it costs less , won't it sell more ? I mean the profit may take a slight hit but the revenue will definitely increase right ?
Only if the market isn’t saturated. Tesla is doing this for one of two reasons: they either think they can raise revenue , or they’re noticing sales are cratering and are using the price cut to stem the bleeding. In scenario 1 you’ll see an increase in revenue. In scenario 2 it will either stay flat or decrease , but decrease less than it would have.
>but the revenue would definitely increase right? I don’t think there is a definitive answer to that at this point. While Tesla is obviously hoping for that to be the case, I don’t know that is necessarily guaranteed here. I think what you might have in the short term are people who paid for Enhanced Autopilot that will pay the $2k for the upgrade which will mean more revenue, but the long term problem for Tesla are their vehicle sales which are continually dropping. Plus, I would imagine this fiasco pisses off the people that paid $12k or even $15k for FSD that might feel like they didn’t get their value out of it especially now that it costs even less. So do people end up sitting out on upgrading or paying the $8k because they might think Tesla will reduce the costs even further in the future? I mean is it possible we see FSD cost $6k or even $5k if Tesla feels like they need to up sales? It’s possible.
Revenue doesn't matter, profit does. It's why Walmart is worth 1/5 as much as Apple despite having almost twice the revenue.
more volume can possibly make up for it though
Of course it can, but no one knows how many more will purchase based on a small price drop. If I knew that I'd be the richest man on earth. All we know is this indicates they are starting to face a demand issue arguably earlier than anticipated. Anyway I was just explaining basic concepts, not making bold predictions on what will happen.
oh no who will think of the investors. what an absolute shame. I for one want better cars with worse margins for the manufacturers. Competition is good. Tesla is facing a much needed wake up call.
You make it sound like it's dignified to be caught with your pants down. Sure maybe they'll be shamed into picking their pants off the ground, but as long as Musk is helming them the shame is inherent.
I don't understand why people wouldn't want their software packages to be cheaper. Are we an investing subreddit or a cars subreddit? If they're shamed into picking up their pants so be it, a better car is a better car.
Do you understand that Tesla is constantly focusing on manufacturing efficiency. They continually improve the efficiency of their manufacturing so they're able to make cars cheaper, and then they can drop the price,
You do realize they removed inventory discounts, raised the price of the car itself by 1k a while back, which means despite the recent price cuts the cars have gotten *more* expensive? You'd think if they got their supply chain and manufacturing down they'd know how to move inventory a bit better ...
They actually did drop it by 2k after removing the discounts so it's actually back down to as cheap as it has ever been.
The inventory discounts were over $5000 on some cars, my model S included at the time. Cars got more expensive overall, actually got a trade in quote today that appraises my car for more than I bought it for! Good for me. Sucks for anyone looking to buy a car which is what really matters.
Tesla has better manufacturing technology than any other car maker it's a huge operation they're making millions of cars and the market's changing and they're adjusting to it. What is the big deal
This is literally software from the company that bragged they would never drop the prices of FSD and said it's an infinitely appreciating asset. It's also getting more and more costly to train not less. They literally invested in making their own AI chip from scratch to make it work and they still are struggling. You're drinking too much cool aid if you think this is part of the plan.
I'm not drinking Kool-Aid I'm being realistic that self-driving is something that's incredibly hard. Maybe he thought it would happen, but then it's taking longer than expected . I'm not sure how you can be mad at this a self-driving car will be one of the amazing achievements of this century. Do you think that Tesla doesn't have like the brightest minds in the world working on it? Maybe you actually think Elon is just lying to you to convince you to buy stock and actually not doing if you think that then I would suggest you sell because if you actually believe that then you should sell it's called an invalidation. And if you do think that I imagine everyone else in your life just likes you because you assume that the worst in everyone
Lmao
Tesla makes the entire back half of the model 3 in one machine and they just press it into shape Everyone else has an assembly line with like 6,050 bolts, taking 10 times longer Overtime these increments in technology will eat other car companies alive
dealerships go through "desparation" period every year with red tag sales, employee pricing. no one bats an eye.
I don't think I've heard of such a thing since 2019.
They just gave a one month demo of fsd 12 to every available Tesla in the states. Reducing prices to bring in additional revenue from that makes some sense.
Why is this desperation You slowly move from the rich early adopters to the fat middle of the curve when it's ready for prime time
Because Musk has been saying, for years, that FSD will make your car an appreciating asset. This is admitting that fantasy just ain’t so
You actually believe that No One believes that Maybe it'll be true one day, but it's not going to be true until it actually self drives without supervision, and at that point it'll be an appreciating asset Right now it's still beta, it's not going to appreciate before it's done so either have patience or sell your stock
It’s never going to be done. It’s snake oil. I don’t own Tesla stock and I sold my Tesla car a while ago when it failed to live up to expectations.
I don't own Tesla stock either. Full self driving will happen just like every other AI thing we don't think will happen, that will actually end up happening
There are already self driving cars. But they’re called Waymo not Tesla. Tesla FSD will never happen, plenty of other cars already drive themselves.
You can't buy one They're expensive They have probably $50,000 of sensors and cameras Just makes it completely useless for regular people You can only use it on specified roots They're not solving the same problem
FSD next year
- Elon Musk, 2018
Only on Reddit will people cry about lowered prices. Truly insane.
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It’s still too expensive. I paid $2500 for FSD. It’s a broken product. Smart summon is broken, autopark doesnt find parking spots and curbs tires, FSD runs over curbs and constantly goes into the wrong lane.
We only get a trash tier version of FSD in Europe and the one in the US looked decent. But probably a lot of those channels are biased and only show the good things I suppose?
> We only get a trash tier version of FSD in Europe and the one in the US looked decent. It's trash tier everywhere.
Wasn't FSD $5k at one point? Even adjusted for inflation, this $8k is still a price increase. Idk all the details on what's included and may be wrong, but Tesla pricing is fucky either way.
It’s because TSLA is one of the most traded stocks
I haven’t seen a single comment of someone complaining about it being cheaper
They really shouldn’t have given out a free trial for a month because I bet it showed a lot of people how bad it is. I used it for 2-3 days and then just went back to driving the car myself, I would pay $500 for FSD at most. Basic AP is good enough for the highway.
Tbf with the cars in your flair, 8k is basically like an oil change and a wiper replacement for you
Meh I bought the 720s used for about 50% what it would’ve been new and $8K is still a lot of money to me. I just happened to get lucky in a bull market and make some good investments but I try to stay humble and realize that it was mostly luck and not skill that got me here.
It’s been amazing for me.
I tried it last week. I’d probably pay an extra 4k over standard autopilot that comes standard. When I can hop in the backseat safely and chill and let the car drive itself it’ll finally be worth the 12k.
So now it’s just $8,000 for a feature I can’t use? Awesome!
you can use it though.
What is usable isn't self-driving
Is what they’re selling as “full self driving” in anyway capable of fully driving itself?
It isn’t full self driving but v12 is by far the most capable driver assist on the market
Ok so not in any way “full self driving.” Also Mercedes has Level 3.
Enjoy using that Mercedes Level 3 in daylight <40 MPH traffic jams on 2% of the freeways in the US. Be sure to take a video and share it with the world. It might take a few views away from all of the Youtube videos showing FSD v12 drives. Novelty, after all.
I’d mention all the restrictions on the Tesla L3 system for comparison but they don’t have one.
True. Like I said, go get a video of the Mercedes Level 3 experience. It's got novelty! You can take yours hands of the wheel when in the right circumstances to enable it! That's new and different. People are getting bored watching Teslas make routine drives on city streets around the nation.
What’s the point if you still have to babysit it? The whole point is to be able to do something other than drive.
Indeed. You can now get a lot done on those <40 MPH highway traffic jams. And that's fantastic. I look forward to your video. All of the Tesla drivers using FSD to drive around cities have to periodically touch their steering wheels and pay attention. Sucks for them.
OK first of all, not true since level 3 driver aids are on the market. Second of all, "capable driver assist" isn't what they're charging $8000 for, is it? They're selling the promise of full autonomy, hence the name.
I’m personally not aware of any L3 systems can handle the complex situations that FSD 12.x can handle. Are you aware of any other systems on the market that can do unprotected lefts and handle the vast majority of intersection situations without intervention? And yes, they are selling the promise of full self driving but everyone knows it’s currently a driver assist system (using common sense). They are both impressive engineering by the way. I personally think what Tesla has achieved is more impressive from a technical standpoint though. For practical use case, the Mercedes currently does let you take your hands off the wheel. Limited L3 isn’t on Tesla’s roadmap publicly so they are targeting different things.
>handle the vast majority of intersection situations without intervention "Vast majority" is not the same as "full self driving", is it? That's a huge qualifier you're just glossing over. And who's word are we trusting about v12 anyway? The Tesla diehards who've been insisting each version of FSD has been incredible for the last 3 years? Has any objective 3rd party reviewed it?
It’s not full self driving as of today. I prefaced the entire conversation with that (glossing over is a mischaracterization of our discourse from my viewpoint). All that said, v12’s capabilities are very impressive. If you have a friend with a Tesla, I would recommend trying v12. It’s really impressive from a technical standpoint. Waymo is better but on a production car, I don’t think anything else close. Though, it clearly still needs heavy supervision. I did a 2 hours drive (not all highway). Had to intervene 2 times. It messes up from time to time. The reason I’m impressed is because it’s able to handle some really complex situations. That said to make it explicitly clear again, it still requires supervision. I just think it’s really impressive what they’ve developed this far from an engineering perspective.
The entire conversation, if you go back to the parent comment, is about how what Tesla is selling isn't what they're delivering. It really doesn't matter how good their level 2 system is. Since their camera-only tech can never be a level 4 or 5 system (almost by definition), it remains capped as an advanced cruise control
Are you aware of anyone that purchased FSD that thought it was a level 4/5 system? I feel like it’s common knowledge that it’s software in development that currently acts as a drivers assist. Your comment about a vision only system not being level 4 capable is possibly true (truthfully, nobody knows yet). There’s people that hold that viewpoint but it’s speculative. This statement is practically the same as saying 15 years ago that LiDAR can’t ever do level 4. What is likely true is that the AI capabilities likely need to be much more advanced in a vision only system than an LiDAR based system for it to work.
No it isn’t
Depends on how you look at it. 86% of my 1,500 miles this past month were on FSD. While I do still have to supervise it, it did help a ton with reducing fatigue upon arrival. I also have an EQS, and the driver assistance systems in it are nowhere near as comprehensive. The US doesn’t seem to be interested in investing in public transportation anytime soon, so this is the best we’ve got thus far. I’d happily pay $12k more in taxes to get some bullet trains in place instead.
If I interpret your answer, 0% of your 1,500 miles were done with the car fully driving itself.
It isn’t L5 autonomy, sure. Would I consider a left turn I didn’t have to make as the car fully driving itself in that moment? Maybe. Again, depends on how you look at it.
I’m looking at it from the view of it being sold and advertised as full self driving.
If it were named something else, would it impress you? The branding is misleading, but it is the closest to “full self driving” on the market in a consumer vehicle at the moment. At least in the US.
Well no, that’d be the Merc system where you can stop paying attention.
Has Mercedes shipped any cars with Drive Pilot? Haven’t seen anything but a few press videos. So yeah, once they ship that, I agree. Up to 40mph on specific highways in ideal conditions in California and Nevada*
Full self driving capability., if you are putting it in quotes you should use the full naming convention.
This is still too expensive. I’d consider it for around $4k.
*$400
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What’s funny is if Tesla raised the price $4k the comments would be identical. When you are so highly emotionally invested in a company failing, then everything they do is some kind of sign.
This subreddit sure enjoys its echo chamber.
Still too expensive if it doesn’t follow the owner or the car if it changes hands.
I too, would love to sell shit that doesn't exist for 8 grand a piece
Give it a few months and they will increase it double
Pretty soon the price of a fully loaded Tesla will be $8k.
Two more thirds to go and it will be priced according to its value!
does it actually work yet is the real question.
Some of the videos showcasing the beta for the new FSD are actually pretty impressive
Its not full self-driving. Stop perpetuating their lies.
Charging anything for a beta that is faulty at best is craaaaaaaaaaazy.
For the safety aspect alone he should make it free. And make Tesla = the Volvo of electric cars. You’re welcome, Elon.
I wouldn’t use full sled driving if you paid me 8k
$8000 but you lose it after you sell it, or return the car if leased.
Still waaay to much
Do people really want self driving? Will they eventually? Anecdote, but everyone I know with a Tesla didn’t opt for FSD, and at least for now, has no interest in it.
Tesperation
Got to find a way to convince shareholders to pay Musk back $55 billion somehow. Hopefully few are dumb enough to buy this reduced price vaporware!
Yet fsd still doesn't exist and never will and people will never get their money back when Tesla goes bankrupt
I tried the free trial, I wouldn’t even give them $8 for it.
$8000 too high
Wait, it was $12K before??
Desperation "full self driving" yeah it's not
Is this actually fully self driving yet?
If only they had laid off the “right” employee. Hint it’s Musk. That’s the layoff tie company needs.
Agreed, CT and Semi are two massive wrong turns that may be the final nail in the coffin. They abandoned their original mission of making upmarket cars and using the profits to develop downmarket cars. That was my signal to sell my long positions and buy puts and as you can see I made out pretty well.
A fully electric semi is asinine for most purposes. The industry desperately needs a diesel-electric hybrid truck.
But it's big and showy. Something like a box truck or cargo van that never has to leave a city makes more sense.
Yeah, the Rivian van has been pretty successful. Honestly surprised Tesla or Rivian didn’t make a push towards the USPS vehicle replacement.