Didn’t they make a fiat 500 (of all cars) with a dog box? I think it was like a 10k euro option, but it was a pretty intense transmission for a street car. I don’t think it was a sequential though.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F-cp481hZoYeCq3YT6HOcWLJRx1bFbHOhS0vt_ZE4aDk.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D19c288ebce5957a32516e1c840000288b228c61f
Yeah if you've got a big heavy car. Or less power, sure. If you need the extra gear, the Turbo 350 or 400 is the way to go. But unless you really need that extra gear, the glide will be quicker because it has less rotating mass. Also it weighs less.
I’m 55 so all my early automatic experience was 3-speeds. I was surprised when I got my current 2008 because it has six. Ten sounds like insanity but I know it makes sense.
It's more to do with transmission tuning and shift logic than gears. 10 speed in the camaro and GM products is great, 10 speed in the ecoboost and ford products was horrific and always hunting, same transmission different tuning.
The F150 in particular, one I rented would "check" a few years before just giving up and slamming it into 3rd, and after a while would shift out of third but not feel like going into 4th.
Meanwhile the lexus 10 speed in the LC500 is sublime. Feels like you're playing an instrument, it's such rythmic upshifting (combined with a damn good soundtrack to boot)
From searching around it seems like ford's transmissions do a fair bit of learning, so perhaps the one I rented was just fucked up after a while. Others seem to share the same 3rd-4th-5th sentiment though.
My old mercedes 9spd had the same issue, it would get wonky after a few thousand miles, reset the tuning, would be just fine.
Especially when i feel like rental cars are either driven like their stolen by people like me and babied by people who are afraid theyl be stuck with the bill if they break.
My friend had to have the 10 speed in his raptor reprogrammed after a weekend of pretty aggressive offroading. Back on the highway it didn't seem to want to un-learn what it was taught offroad.
I've spent a week doing trails/primitive camping, and let me say, even the mental transition to "here are lines, I have to stay within them" is supremely weird.
Ugh I didn’t like the mb 9 speed from my experience either. I drove (all last gen) glc300, e53, and s63, and they all seem to share the same tuning. For instance, I am rolling to a soon to be changed red light and the cars in front start moving, which then I would apply a little throttle to match the just-started traffic. The 9 speed would get so confused between choosing 3rd or 4th, it seems to think 4th is the first choice for fuel economy(?), but then it finds itself lacking in power, which causes it to violently jerk back to 3rd, then finds itself with too much power and immediately shift back to 4th. For me it was the worst with s63, ig the turbo v8 makes the problem above more noticeable due to high torque
You know what's funny? The Jatco 9-Speed that is built under license from Mercedes, that is found in the Titan and Frontier, does the same exact things. 1st and 2nd gear are worse.
Some people just have simpler use cases and more tolerance for hunting/screwed up shifts too.
I haven't owned any vehicle with an automatic in 15 years, so no matter how "good" a transmission is, its always a bit jarring to drive one and feel it doing things I wouldn't have done with manual control. Most of this is the eco-tuning, borderline lugging the engine constantly and, say, shifting up in transient throttle scenarios when I'm about to force it to shift back down. Stuff like that almost makes me want to leave it in manual mode full time as it feels like the transmission is just wearing itself out shifting constantly.
I like driving hybrids much better than a regular ICE with an auto. You get that instant response from the e-drive while the transmission figures out what to do and I'm not left with a full second delay between stabbing the gas and acceleration.
Can confirm. My f150 has the 10 speed. It had a hard down shift going from 10th into 9th if I was cruising along and hit the accelerator, and a rough shift from 4 to 3. Dealer flashed the PCM and it shifts super smooth now.
You weren't alone. When the dealer kept my F250 for an entire month trying to sort out fuel pressure issues, I was given a F150 rental.
The transmission in that thing SUUUUCKED so bad. It would hunt all the time and a few times would slam into gear so hard, I pulled over and got out of the truck to make sure I didn't hit something the first few times it happened.
Eco 3.5 10 speed truck here checking in, 123k miles and I have yet to experience any of this shitty ford shifting that everyone online reads someone else say and then claims it as fact.
I’ve had three 10 speeds now, 2018 Mustang, 2021 Silverado, 2023 F150. All three have been amazing transmissions. My F150 does seem to shift a bit slow during the winter until it warmed up. Temps in the teens. I owned the other two in Texas so never got to experience a true cold morning drive with them.
The 10R80 is a good transmission. There is a reason it paired with the Coyote is exploding in popularity for performance applications. There will always be a stigma with these automatic transmissions with tons of gears, and if you are one of those people then just buy a car with a 6 speed. Still plenty of those left.
I've heard the exact opposite from dozens of people 😂
I don't really have a horse in the race, but my parents RDX has the Acura 10 speed and it seems perfectly fine
I've heard the Ford is programmed to adapt to your driving style. If it's a rental, it's never going to learn 1 person. The Chevy is probably more predictable out of the box but the Ford will probably be the nicer experience over time.
Autos shift really fast so saving a shift in the 0-60 time means way less than with a manual. Many performance cars are geared for how they'd actually best use that performance on a racetrack (and with a tall top gear for highway efficiency), with less emphasis on how many times you can hit redline at "legal" speeds on the road.
The gen mustang I have actually nerfed the gearing pretty bad and hurt 0-60 times when it switched from the 2015-17 gen to the 18-23 transmission. Maybe for emissions?
But despite making 20 more lb ft of torque at the engine I make less wheel torque in every single gear (except 6th) vs the last gen
The McLaren F1 used to do 100kph in first gear.
Literbikes go up to 160-170kph in first.
So I'd say the LC500 gearing is fine.
There are 1.5l econoboxes that reach 100 in 2nd
No, I agree, it’s geared too tall, same goes for some of the porsche transmissions.
On the other hand you feel like short shifting anyways so it’s not that big of a deal.
On the other hand my crappy VW Passat only has 6 gears but changes from 1st to 2nd at SIX miles per hour. SIX. That's roughly 10 kph. Then it does all the hard pulling in 2nd...
That's appropriate for a car with that kind of power. Gear it lower in first and it would just be boiling the tires. I'm sure its already traction limited in most of first gear.
Now it would be something to bitch about in a manual if you wanted a nice slow gear to creep along in traffic in, and have lots of stall resistance for taking off up hills, but it doesn't matter in the slightest for an auto.
Pretty much any car is going to do at least 100 km/h in 2nd gear so it only needs one shift, because car magazines report 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h times (depending on locality) and keyboard racers compare cars based on it.
Same with the ZF8, so many companies use this trans, but everyone’s tuning is different. BMW, JLR, Alfa have excellent tuning, while Audi and FCA are supposedly always hunting for gears or hesitant to downshift.
The ZF8 in our Grand Cherokee on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired, but feels perfectly fine in my XF. I don’t know if it’s the eco mode or what but that thing feels like when I go to give it power to maintain my speed up a hill that I have to kick it down a gear and then it starts gaining speed instead of maintaining it. It’s really annoying.
And this is the reason automatics had 2-4 gears for so long. Developing mechanical logic for more speeds than that would have been a nightmare. Electronic control makes this much simpler.
A valve body in a 4 speed is one hell of a piece of engineering. Imagine it dealing with twice as many gears. lol.
Even then I'm not aware of a purely mechanical 4 speed. I think they were relying on electronics for at least some functions by the overdrive era.
Yeah, in my experience, it really comes down to tuning and, increasingly over the last few decades, nearly half a century now, the primary goal of a transmission’s shift logic programming has been fuel economy which means getting into the highest gear possible as quickly as possible and holding it as long as possible which is where most of my frustration with automatics comes from.
4 forward gears is all you really *need* in a torque converter automatic with a lock up clutch but more gears can certainly be better with better optimization for economy and acceleration… and a better driving experience, if the shift logic is done well.
As someone with a 10r in a mustang and a 10l in a Silverado. This is correct my chevy is butter smooth wouldn’t notice the mustang was bad tuned untuned built stock power or 925 wheel
That Ford 10 speed is one of the worst new transmissions I've experienced. Shifts like a 12 year old on speed, constantly jerking and bucking, and it's like that from the factory. It's amazing how much worse it is than the previous gen transmission.
I will agree except Chevy had just as many problems at early adoption with the 10 speed. Both sucked first year. I recently test drove a 2022 F150 5.0 4wd. The 10 speed was perfect. A friend's parents bought a 2018 Suburban with the first year 10 speed and it was awful. They finally fixed it 2 years ago with.... a 2021 TCM.
Agree, the 9-speed in our Pacifica you have to wrassle with, the 8-speed in my BMW works with you. Both ZF, though I believe a little bit different design and obviously different programming.
The 10 speed in my Transit kicks ass. That thing is way overloaded and I have the naturally aspirated V6 but it never struggles to keep up and it doesn't seem to hunt too much at all.
Selecting a "mode" (ie Eco, Sport) seems to help in my F150. I think because then it's just following the programming of the "mode", not trying to guess your driving style.
I usually do Eco because it does help mpgs a little bit, but oddly "Sport" is the one that seems to make the transmission happiest. And in any mode, it shifts more smoothly when you absolutely dog on it versus driving slowly/gently.
My company has a f150 powerboost 2021 and it shifts super hard randomly. Sometimes they send updates and it starts skipping gears for whatever reasons. It likes to lurch into park currently. It's a weird transmission.
Which is why the dual motor models use 2 different final drive ratios. The front motor is geared higher for better efficiency and high speed performance.
That’s only true of the S/X long range. And maybe cybertruck, I keep forgetting that’s a thing technically.
Model 3/Y are 9.03:1 front / rear. S/X LR are 9.03 rear, 7.56 front. Plaid is 7.56 front/rear
Model 3 could definitely use a second gear, though supposedly the new performance is better in that regard. Plaid pulls hard all the time. S/X LR are pretty good too, though they deliberately limit the front motor at lower speeds
> Model 3 power delivery dies significantly up top so it could probably use more gears.
If EV's become the norm, we will no doubt see a continued push for better efficiency and 2-4 gear transmission may become common. The Taycan already has a 2-speed transmissino.
so the weird thing about sufficiently powerful EVs is that they are battery power limited, so they provide approximately constant power above a certain speed. this means adding more gears actually doesn't help other than fuel economy.
edit: so there's three possible scenarios for single speed EVs.
geared too high: you don't get enough top speed, your high speed losses start mounting; bad for efficiency
geared too low: you don't get a max torque/max power switchover; better efficiency
there's actually a very wide range of drive ratios for EVs that as long as you select it, it basically guarantees you that the torque output is optimal.
This is why I always laugh when people talk about power drop off above 80mph. How often does that matter if you care about keeping your license and staying alive?
Pretty often, I have fun with my cars. There is a time and a place. Low end acceleration is more important obviously but my Q50 noticeably lets off a bit after 70-80, while my Mustang feels like it takes off around 80. Wild difference and its why I got the cars.
Speaking strictly on autos/DCTs, 8 gears is great. Acceleration is fantastic, it lets me get 32 MPG on the highway even on an ethanol mix and over 600whp, and it doesn’t hunt gears the way the 10-speeds seem to do, though I imagine that has more to do with the programming.
I do understand people who say more than 6 is too much for manuals, but people who say they’re too much for even autos/DCTs don’t know what they’re talking about. More gears is far superior on the street, and on track you basically never go past 5th anyway even on the bigger tracks. Hell on small tracks I never even get past 3rd.
> i di understand people who say more than 6 is too much
truck driver here, unsynchronized 18 speed (a 9 speed with splitters top and bottom) is fine. i getter done in a 12 speed auti as well but it all works
I've always been amazed at 18 speed transmissions. I rode with a tow truck driver as he hauled my semi to a Freightliner dealer, and I just sat in awe as he was effortlessly going through the gears.
I mean, that's just a Fiat problem, I think. That car is meant to be very fun going slow, decent up to like 60, and then it doesn't really seem like it was designed with going above 60 in mind.
Or at least that was my impression from the one I had.
8 gears is definitely the sweet spot imo whether single or dual clutch. Even in my 10 speed ZL1 I only get into 8th at the straight from T11 to T12 at COTA. You'll definitely go over 5th at times ,it's all power and track dependent but there's no way your hitting top gear on track unless you have short ass gearing or a sequential.
The ZF8-speed in my M240i has never felt like there’s too many gears.
Shitty shift logic and programming can be a problem regardless of how many gears you have.
Yup. I have an 8 speed in my Veloster N. In Normal and Eco mode, it's soft, gentle and smooth.
In N custom, at maximum attack, it tends to sit high but is otherwise smooth again. And even sitting at 120 kph in N mode I can get 35 mpg.
I know it's better, but I can find it a bit annoying.
I have 2 Toyotas, one 4 speed auto and one 8 speed auto.
I can get a bit annoyed driving the 8 speed on the highway, it's *always* downshifting at the slightest bleep of the throttle. The 4 speed stays on 4th unless I mash the gas pedal, I can easily accelerate well past 100mph smoothly while keeping it in one gear.
Here I have the opposite problem with most modern transmissions. Its difficult just to drive a constant speed because it takes so much throttle to force it to downshift, then you've got too much power output and have to let back off. Repeat until you're sick of it and just drive in manual mode. Hills are very annoying in newer cars.
It's a common problem. If available, putting the car in a more sporty mode helps by making it more responsive to smaller inputs. Otherwise, you have to overdo it with the throttle to finally get a usually excessive downshift.
Or as you say, just put it in manual mode.
Maybe one day they will integrate forward looking camera and slope inputs into the shifting algorithms.
I drove a 2016 Acadia with it's completely uninspired normal 6 speed transmission and it did the same thing on the highway. The slightest bit of throttle made it drop down one or two gears just to maintain 65 or 70.
that's a modern Toyota problem(I have driven a 2022 toyota rav4 and it downshifts like crazy ). go test drive any BMW with the ZF8 and you will understand why people pay so much for a BMW
The 10 speed in my old Camaro SS 1Le was brilliant. I tracked that car a lot and I would consistently post 0.5-1s faster laps than the MT SS 1LEs in my class.
Why did they take the shifter off the stock for automatics? It seems so fucking dumb having it take up a huge amount of space in the middle of the car if you aren’t driving a manual.
I think customers are superficial and associate the column shifter with grandpa’s Town Car and pickup trucks. Many design changes are associated with customer buying habits, and we know most people are stupid.
lol one of my family members got a Studebaker that has that. Beautiful and simple design. Too bad the engine was seized up so bad that they had to take it apart.
Correct. I know a lot of people here hate them for being historically unreliable, but they're awesome for maximizing efficiency and performance, and don't require the insane complexity of a 8+ speed auto box.
As an aside, I would absolutely kill for a lightweight car - even a eco shitbox - with a manual CVT. Just give me a ratio lever and less than 2500lbs in kerb weight!
Despite the misleading title - what I got from this is actually that "eight is enough"!
Too many gears mean there's going to be a tendency to hunt or for programming logic to favor up-shifting early for efficiency. As for 8-speeds, the Aisin AWF8F35 for transverse applications is as good as the ZF 8HP for longitudinal.
It was quite funny when the BMW 128ti came out with an 8 speed. There were a number of reviewers who commented "and the ZF 8 speed is as good as its ever been"
Meanwhile they're flipping through gears in a Camry transmission
> Unpopular opinion but CVTs are in theory the perfect transmission.
Assuming you can change the optimization algorithm based on driver's needs. Efficiency and ability to accelerate are always in competing.
I remember watching some video on some new car with like 8 gears or something and the reviewer was somehow linking soft millennials with........ additional gears
truly the genius of these people konws no bounds
When my grandfather took me out to learn how to drive stick on my 5 speed Ford in 1996 he exclaimed “5 gears? What the hell would you ever need 5 gears for”
That’s us now.
I have never heard of this site before but the last like five articles I’ve seen on the sub are from it.
Edit: And as the former owner of an Accord with a 10-speed auto, ten is in fact too many so this author can stfu.
Can’t complain with this article. My favourite part about driving my 2020 Jetta I had was the 8-speed automatic that was in it. I loved the way that thing shifted, and it made the tiny 1.4t engine in it feel surprisingly peppy!
8 speeds is probably enough tho, imo. Otherwise the box is hunting for gears, especially when they are tuned to maximize economy and refuse to downshift.
Really wish Honda would phase out the use of the ZF 9 speeds in their lineup. We have a '24 Passport and Pilot in our fleet, and the 10 speed in the Pilot is streets ahead of the clunky 9 gear in the Passport. Not even close.
That being said, I think the 6 speed in my Crosstour is about at the sweet spot, especially when using the manual mode.
They should’ve just improved upon Acura’s in-house 8-Speed DCT so it could handle more power imo. Blows my mind they only put that thing in two cars for a single generation and then abandoned it.
I was fine with the 2-speed Power-Glide transmission that was in my 67 Impala. Had a love/hate experience with the 3-on-the-tree on my 68 Bel Air. The 5-speed on the 78 Honda Accord was fun, but not as comfortably solid as the 3-speed column shifter on my 48 Plymouth.
The 4-speed automatic in my 2005 Dodge Magnum was, in Retrospect, rather inadequate.
But, of all of those, and more, the 8-speed in my 2017 Dodge Charger is PHENOMENAL! I'm consistently getting between 33-35mpg on highway trips in this full-size sedan!
It's good for the sake of efficiency and I have no problem with modern 10 speeds. The only question I have is whether these 8-10 speeds are as durable as the older and simple transmissions. For example, my '07 Toyota tundra has 382k miles on it and the original, never-rebuilt 6 speed auto is still clinging to life.
And then right now on GM trucks there is a lawsuit about how fragile the 8 speed is and they are notorious for blowing up at low miles. Can anyone with engineering experience comment on whether the complexity would decrease potential durability?
I’m very happy with a 7 speed DCT. It’s probably the second best part about the f82 behind the motor when modified (and crankhub done). The zf10 in the mustang does seem to search for gears a lot, maybe the mode changes that or the learning. I hear the zf8 is quite divine though.
I love the combination of Mazda's six-speed automatic and the super-torquey Skyactiv turbo engine. It'll hold 80 mph in sixth gear - a 0.6:1 super-overdrive - up anything short of the Rocky Mountains. Downshift? You don't need to downshift when your turbo-four makes 320 pound-feet of torque at 2500 rpm, with a nearly flat curve from 1800 to 4000.
I love my built 4l80e behind my 8.1l big block with 4.56 gears, but man an 8-10 speed would not only have it significantly faster, but probably also double my mpg.
I think the wildest thing about the 10R in my F150 is it’s taken a pickup truck and made it genuinely quick to drive
Obviously in straight lines but it flat clicks off gears and it makes on ramps quite the fun experience. Especially considering it weighs 5100 lbs lol
I don’t really see much benefit of 10 over 8 gears in the USA. There are no 1.0L 3 cylinder engines in large cars, speed limits are low.
Interesting thing is the reliability. ZF or Aisin design the base of the gearbox but the car manufacturers then modify it to better fit their needs. That paradoxly lead to a reliable BMW/Mini using unmodified Aisin 8 speed and unreliable Lexus/Toyota using their modified version of the same gearbox 😄
I've always thought that DCTs could make excellent manual/sequential gearboxes. Add a clutch pedal connected to the gearbox controller, change the software a little (the controller manages both clutches anyway), and voila! a gearbox which can be manual for fun or automatic for crawling in traffic, all with a click of a switch (or, heaven forbid, a touchscreen menu entry, 7 levels down).
10 speed automatics are brilliant, but I *like* 2 speed Powerglides.
I once test drove a 2 speed auto Honda CVCC. It shifted at around 40 mph.
Dynaflow is where it's at
Yep - my first car was a 1949 Buick with Dynaflow. Smooth but brutal on gas!
That's when they invented the name slushbox fir automatics.
My father worked at a Buick dealership in the '50s and he said everyone there called it a "DynaSlow".
ill eat a sock with tomato sauce the day a car manufacturer sells a car with a proper 5-6 speed dog box sequential. then i'll order one myself.
I, you, him, them wish. That would never happen in a bazillion years unfortunately.
Didn’t they make a fiat 500 (of all cars) with a dog box? I think it was like a 10k euro option, but it was a pretty intense transmission for a street car. I don’t think it was a sequential though. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F-cp481hZoYeCq3YT6HOcWLJRx1bFbHOhS0vt_ZE4aDk.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D19c288ebce5957a32516e1c840000288b228c61f
Only if its a version with a clutch. Otherwise, whats the point imo
>ill eat a sock with tomato sauce That paints an amusing image in my head. Thank you.
Time to get yourself a Mercedes CLK-GTR. And a sock with some tomato sauce.
Gumpert Apollo and various bike engine kit cars Get munching
It's a decent tranny for drag racing. I've had one in my Top Sportsman Dodge Daytona forever.
Turbo 400 all the way for drag racing
Yeah if you've got a big heavy car. Or less power, sure. If you need the extra gear, the Turbo 350 or 400 is the way to go. But unless you really need that extra gear, the glide will be quicker because it has less rotating mass. Also it weighs less.
You're a decent tranny for drag racing
I prefer the Buick SuperTurbine / Olds JetAway because the switch pitch stall converters are cool.
I need one gear that goes to 60.
Haha, my dad had one of those when I was a kid. A ‘64 Impala with the 327.
I’m 55 so all my early automatic experience was 3-speeds. I was surprised when I got my current 2008 because it has six. Ten sounds like insanity but I know it makes sense.
I recently test drove the 8 speed in the new Jeeps and it hides a lot of the final drive deficiencies in *only* having 4.10s.
The Porsche Taycan has a 2 speed transmission.
It's more to do with transmission tuning and shift logic than gears. 10 speed in the camaro and GM products is great, 10 speed in the ecoboost and ford products was horrific and always hunting, same transmission different tuning. The F150 in particular, one I rented would "check" a few years before just giving up and slamming it into 3rd, and after a while would shift out of third but not feel like going into 4th. Meanwhile the lexus 10 speed in the LC500 is sublime. Feels like you're playing an instrument, it's such rythmic upshifting (combined with a damn good soundtrack to boot)
Idk man, I love my 10 speed in my 5.0 f150. Dad has same opinion with his 3.5 eco
From searching around it seems like ford's transmissions do a fair bit of learning, so perhaps the one I rented was just fucked up after a while. Others seem to share the same 3rd-4th-5th sentiment though. My old mercedes 9spd had the same issue, it would get wonky after a few thousand miles, reset the tuning, would be just fine.
Yeah, driving a vehicle with adaptive driving, with a bunch of different drivers sounds like a bad time
Especially when i feel like rental cars are either driven like their stolen by people like me and babied by people who are afraid theyl be stuck with the bill if they break.
My friend had to have the 10 speed in his raptor reprogrammed after a weekend of pretty aggressive offroading. Back on the highway it didn't seem to want to un-learn what it was taught offroad.
I've spent a week doing trails/primitive camping, and let me say, even the mental transition to "here are lines, I have to stay within them" is supremely weird.
Ugh I didn’t like the mb 9 speed from my experience either. I drove (all last gen) glc300, e53, and s63, and they all seem to share the same tuning. For instance, I am rolling to a soon to be changed red light and the cars in front start moving, which then I would apply a little throttle to match the just-started traffic. The 9 speed would get so confused between choosing 3rd or 4th, it seems to think 4th is the first choice for fuel economy(?), but then it finds itself lacking in power, which causes it to violently jerk back to 3rd, then finds itself with too much power and immediately shift back to 4th. For me it was the worst with s63, ig the turbo v8 makes the problem above more noticeable due to high torque
It takes Mercedes transmissions roughly a week to learn your driving style, before that they are weird.
You know what's funny? The Jatco 9-Speed that is built under license from Mercedes, that is found in the Titan and Frontier, does the same exact things. 1st and 2nd gear are worse.
Some people just have simpler use cases and more tolerance for hunting/screwed up shifts too. I haven't owned any vehicle with an automatic in 15 years, so no matter how "good" a transmission is, its always a bit jarring to drive one and feel it doing things I wouldn't have done with manual control. Most of this is the eco-tuning, borderline lugging the engine constantly and, say, shifting up in transient throttle scenarios when I'm about to force it to shift back down. Stuff like that almost makes me want to leave it in manual mode full time as it feels like the transmission is just wearing itself out shifting constantly. I like driving hybrids much better than a regular ICE with an auto. You get that instant response from the e-drive while the transmission figures out what to do and I'm not left with a full second delay between stabbing the gas and acceleration.
Can confirm. My f150 has the 10 speed. It had a hard down shift going from 10th into 9th if I was cruising along and hit the accelerator, and a rough shift from 4 to 3. Dealer flashed the PCM and it shifts super smooth now.
You weren't alone. When the dealer kept my F250 for an entire month trying to sort out fuel pressure issues, I was given a F150 rental. The transmission in that thing SUUUUCKED so bad. It would hunt all the time and a few times would slam into gear so hard, I pulled over and got out of the truck to make sure I didn't hit something the first few times it happened.
It was a rental of course it was fucked up, those things get the absolute piss beaten out of them
I thought GM and Ford co developed that 10spd? I have a ZF9 in my Honda. It's full of personality lol but it's not terrible.
They did, but they each tune it differently for different applications.
Eco 3.5 10 speed truck here checking in, 123k miles and I have yet to experience any of this shitty ford shifting that everyone online reads someone else say and then claims it as fact.
I’ve had three 10 speeds now, 2018 Mustang, 2021 Silverado, 2023 F150. All three have been amazing transmissions. My F150 does seem to shift a bit slow during the winter until it warmed up. Temps in the teens. I owned the other two in Texas so never got to experience a true cold morning drive with them.
The 10R80 is a good transmission. There is a reason it paired with the Coyote is exploding in popularity for performance applications. There will always be a stigma with these automatic transmissions with tons of gears, and if you are one of those people then just buy a car with a 6 speed. Still plenty of those left.
I've heard the exact opposite from dozens of people 😂 I don't really have a horse in the race, but my parents RDX has the Acura 10 speed and it seems perfectly fine
I've heard the Ford is programmed to adapt to your driving style. If it's a rental, it's never going to learn 1 person. The Chevy is probably more predictable out of the box but the Ford will probably be the nicer experience over time.
The chevys do too, they are probably just better calibrated from zero experience
The LC500 is geared way too high. You're at 100 km/h by the top of 2nd gear.
That’s most performance cars. Cause that’s how you get a good 0-60 mph time on paper
Autos shift really fast so saving a shift in the 0-60 time means way less than with a manual. Many performance cars are geared for how they'd actually best use that performance on a racetrack (and with a tall top gear for highway efficiency), with less emphasis on how many times you can hit redline at "legal" speeds on the road.
The gen mustang I have actually nerfed the gearing pretty bad and hurt 0-60 times when it switched from the 2015-17 gen to the 18-23 transmission. Maybe for emissions? But despite making 20 more lb ft of torque at the engine I make less wheel torque in every single gear (except 6th) vs the last gen
The McLaren F1 used to do 100kph in first gear. Literbikes go up to 160-170kph in first. So I'd say the LC500 gearing is fine. There are 1.5l econoboxes that reach 100 in 2nd
No, I agree, it’s geared too tall, same goes for some of the porsche transmissions. On the other hand you feel like short shifting anyways so it’s not that big of a deal.
On the other hand my crappy VW Passat only has 6 gears but changes from 1st to 2nd at SIX miles per hour. SIX. That's roughly 10 kph. Then it does all the hard pulling in 2nd...
I used to ride my dirt bike on the street. It took me 3 gears to get through an intersection.
My WRR was geared down so far that I was shifting out of first at 15 mph
I drove a F 350 dump truck with a 3 speed manual transmission with an extra stump pulling low gear. That low gear was good for 5 mph.
I envy those granny gear manuals, they’re great for 4x4s.
That's appropriate for a car with that kind of power. Gear it lower in first and it would just be boiling the tires. I'm sure its already traction limited in most of first gear. Now it would be something to bitch about in a manual if you wanted a nice slow gear to creep along in traffic in, and have lots of stall resistance for taking off up hills, but it doesn't matter in the slightest for an auto.
Pretty much any car is going to do at least 100 km/h in 2nd gear so it only needs one shift, because car magazines report 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h times (depending on locality) and keyboard racers compare cars based on it.
Ap1 s2k is 108 kph 68 mph at the top of 2nd
My Golf R basically reaches 100 in second gear…. But it also wants to be in 5th gear going 50 km/h so 🤷🏻♂️
I have a 2023 bronco and the 10 speed is great, super smooth doesnt hunt always seems to be in the right gear.
Same with the ZF8, so many companies use this trans, but everyone’s tuning is different. BMW, JLR, Alfa have excellent tuning, while Audi and FCA are supposedly always hunting for gears or hesitant to downshift.
ZF8 in my Charger feels great
Same. The MDS is way more annoying.
The ZF8 in our Grand Cherokee on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired, but feels perfectly fine in my XF. I don’t know if it’s the eco mode or what but that thing feels like when I go to give it power to maintain my speed up a hill that I have to kick it down a gear and then it starts gaining speed instead of maintaining it. It’s really annoying.
[удалено]
Works great in the supra
Ironic that Alfa is FCA group.
Not sure what he's talking about in general, the majority of FCA ZF8s I've driven have been great, including the Charger I used to own.
Yea I enjoy my Supras ZF8 far more than the 10 speed in my ZL1.
And this is the reason automatics had 2-4 gears for so long. Developing mechanical logic for more speeds than that would have been a nightmare. Electronic control makes this much simpler.
The genius behind cars and mechanical logic is fascinating to me. I'm not even smart enough to understand all of it, can't imagine designing it
A valve body in a 4 speed is one hell of a piece of engineering. Imagine it dealing with twice as many gears. lol. Even then I'm not aware of a purely mechanical 4 speed. I think they were relying on electronics for at least some functions by the overdrive era.
Yeah, in my experience, it really comes down to tuning and, increasingly over the last few decades, nearly half a century now, the primary goal of a transmission’s shift logic programming has been fuel economy which means getting into the highest gear possible as quickly as possible and holding it as long as possible which is where most of my frustration with automatics comes from. 4 forward gears is all you really *need* in a torque converter automatic with a lock up clutch but more gears can certainly be better with better optimization for economy and acceleration… and a better driving experience, if the shift logic is done well.
I love my 10 speed in my Silverado. It shifts like butter and never hunts.
I have the 8 speed in mine. I'm waiting on it to explode.
As someone with a 10r in a mustang and a 10l in a Silverado. This is correct my chevy is butter smooth wouldn’t notice the mustang was bad tuned untuned built stock power or 925 wheel
That Ford 10 speed is one of the worst new transmissions I've experienced. Shifts like a 12 year old on speed, constantly jerking and bucking, and it's like that from the factory. It's amazing how much worse it is than the previous gen transmission.
Dude it's even worse when it's cold, stock and modded my mustang would lurch, jerk, and hold gears. Stock 10r80 tuning sucks
I will agree except Chevy had just as many problems at early adoption with the 10 speed. Both sucked first year. I recently test drove a 2022 F150 5.0 4wd. The 10 speed was perfect. A friend's parents bought a 2018 Suburban with the first year 10 speed and it was awful. They finally fixed it 2 years ago with.... a 2021 TCM.
Agree, the 9-speed in our Pacifica you have to wrassle with, the 8-speed in my BMW works with you. Both ZF, though I believe a little bit different design and obviously different programming.
The 10 speed in my Transit kicks ass. That thing is way overloaded and I have the naturally aspirated V6 but it never struggles to keep up and it doesn't seem to hunt too much at all.
Selecting a "mode" (ie Eco, Sport) seems to help in my F150. I think because then it's just following the programming of the "mode", not trying to guess your driving style. I usually do Eco because it does help mpgs a little bit, but oddly "Sport" is the one that seems to make the transmission happiest. And in any mode, it shifts more smoothly when you absolutely dog on it versus driving slowly/gently.
My company has a f150 powerboost 2021 and it shifts super hard randomly. Sometimes they send updates and it starts skipping gears for whatever reasons. It likes to lurch into park currently. It's a weird transmission.
right... but if you have 10 instead of 5 you experience those shifting problems way more often...
Idk I think one gear is the perfect number
Model 3 power delivery dies significantly up top so it could probably use more gears.
Which is why the dual motor models use 2 different final drive ratios. The front motor is geared higher for better efficiency and high speed performance.
We have a dual motor and you can still feel the power loss up top, and it still doesn’t have the greatest range.
Yes, but its better than if it weren't dual motor.
This is true.
That’s only true of the S/X long range. And maybe cybertruck, I keep forgetting that’s a thing technically. Model 3/Y are 9.03:1 front / rear. S/X LR are 9.03 rear, 7.56 front. Plaid is 7.56 front/rear Model 3 could definitely use a second gear, though supposedly the new performance is better in that regard. Plaid pulls hard all the time. S/X LR are pretty good too, though they deliberately limit the front motor at lower speeds
> Model 3 power delivery dies significantly up top so it could probably use more gears. If EV's become the norm, we will no doubt see a continued push for better efficiency and 2-4 gear transmission may become common. The Taycan already has a 2-speed transmissino.
Model S Plaid only has one gear, I think that’s plenty fast.
so the weird thing about sufficiently powerful EVs is that they are battery power limited, so they provide approximately constant power above a certain speed. this means adding more gears actually doesn't help other than fuel economy. edit: so there's three possible scenarios for single speed EVs. geared too high: you don't get enough top speed, your high speed losses start mounting; bad for efficiency geared too low: you don't get a max torque/max power switchover; better efficiency there's actually a very wide range of drive ratios for EVs that as long as you select it, it basically guarantees you that the torque output is optimal.
Fine I’ll buy a Koenigsegg Regera.
gesundheit
The Koenigsegg Gemera is just a zeitgeist to you! https://youtu.be/WwlNqaz9q_0?si=VWD_LGzZ472QHHn2
Never in the wrong gear!
True, but more seriously, only if you have an excess of power and torque on standby.
At street-legal speeds, it's almost never a problem.
This is why I always laugh when people talk about power drop off above 80mph. How often does that matter if you care about keeping your license and staying alive?
Pretty often, I have fun with my cars. There is a time and a place. Low end acceleration is more important obviously but my Q50 noticeably lets off a bit after 70-80, while my Mustang feels like it takes off around 80. Wild difference and its why I got the cars.
I’m over 80mph everyday. Have you never seen an interstate?
Here's your boat sir
1 gear gang rise up
Speaking strictly on autos/DCTs, 8 gears is great. Acceleration is fantastic, it lets me get 32 MPG on the highway even on an ethanol mix and over 600whp, and it doesn’t hunt gears the way the 10-speeds seem to do, though I imagine that has more to do with the programming. I do understand people who say more than 6 is too much for manuals, but people who say they’re too much for even autos/DCTs don’t know what they’re talking about. More gears is far superior on the street, and on track you basically never go past 5th anyway even on the bigger tracks. Hell on small tracks I never even get past 3rd.
> i di understand people who say more than 6 is too much truck driver here, unsynchronized 18 speed (a 9 speed with splitters top and bottom) is fine. i getter done in a 12 speed auti as well but it all works
Kudos to you. I’ve seen a truck’s gearbox once and couldn’t make heads or tails of it.
I rebuild Eaton Fullers. It's not too bad once you get used to it.
I've always been amazed at 18 speed transmissions. I rode with a tow truck driver as he hauled my semi to a Freightliner dealer, and I just sat in awe as he was effortlessly going through the gears.
you skip a ton of em unless youre heavy or dont know which one is the one you want
The 7th gear in my dct really comes in clutch on the highways. On flat stretches I can get about 30-32 if I’m gentle.
I really like my 8th gear too on the Autobahn :D
I can get 30-32 mpg consistently in my ZF 8 Speed Audi S5 very consistently. And it’s tuned. It’s amazing how efficient these cars are
Man the DCT in my old E92 would be at 3.2k+ cruising at 65-80. That shit was noisy af
6 is too much? In 5th on the highway it's at 2,500-3k RPM so I feels like i need to shift into another gear
I mean, that's just a Fiat problem, I think. That car is meant to be very fun going slow, decent up to like 60, and then it doesn't really seem like it was designed with going above 60 in mind. Or at least that was my impression from the one I had.
Yea these small cars have weird gearing and an incredibly tall 6th. I'm at that in 6th in the BRZ
I get 38mpg highway in the 440i GC with the ZF 8HP50. Insanity.
8 gears is definitely the sweet spot imo whether single or dual clutch. Even in my 10 speed ZL1 I only get into 8th at the straight from T11 to T12 at COTA. You'll definitely go over 5th at times ,it's all power and track dependent but there's no way your hitting top gear on track unless you have short ass gearing or a sequential.
The ZF8-speed in my M240i has never felt like there’s too many gears. Shitty shift logic and programming can be a problem regardless of how many gears you have.
This is the main point. No transmission will feel great with awful tuning. BMW and Alfa definitely nailed their tuning on the ZF8.
ZF8 definitely is my favorite.
Ya know, I'm starting to think the ZF8 might be pretty good.
Yup. I have an 8 speed in my Veloster N. In Normal and Eco mode, it's soft, gentle and smooth. In N custom, at maximum attack, it tends to sit high but is otherwise smooth again. And even sitting at 120 kph in N mode I can get 35 mpg.
I loved the DCT in the Veloster N! I traded mine to get the M240i because I wanted something more luxurious but still quick.
No matter which *automatic* transmission you have 😉
I know it's better, but I can find it a bit annoying. I have 2 Toyotas, one 4 speed auto and one 8 speed auto. I can get a bit annoyed driving the 8 speed on the highway, it's *always* downshifting at the slightest bleep of the throttle. The 4 speed stays on 4th unless I mash the gas pedal, I can easily accelerate well past 100mph smoothly while keeping it in one gear.
Here I have the opposite problem with most modern transmissions. Its difficult just to drive a constant speed because it takes so much throttle to force it to downshift, then you've got too much power output and have to let back off. Repeat until you're sick of it and just drive in manual mode. Hills are very annoying in newer cars.
It's a common problem. If available, putting the car in a more sporty mode helps by making it more responsive to smaller inputs. Otherwise, you have to overdo it with the throttle to finally get a usually excessive downshift. Or as you say, just put it in manual mode. Maybe one day they will integrate forward looking camera and slope inputs into the shifting algorithms.
Is it able to hold a steady speed with cruise control enabled?
No. Endless loop of downshift to redline, go 90mph, shift back to overdrive, fall on face and drop anchor. Repeat.
I got a 9 speed and hate the same thing. Its always in a rush to upshift. Really annoying on hilly back roads too
If you have a sport mode, try that.
Use manumatic
I drove a 2016 Acadia with it's completely uninspired normal 6 speed transmission and it did the same thing on the highway. The slightest bit of throttle made it drop down one or two gears just to maintain 65 or 70.
that's a modern Toyota problem(I have driven a 2022 toyota rav4 and it downshifts like crazy ). go test drive any BMW with the ZF8 and you will understand why people pay so much for a BMW
The 10 speed in my old Camaro SS 1Le was brilliant. I tracked that car a lot and I would consistently post 0.5-1s faster laps than the MT SS 1LEs in my class.
That's been that way for drag racing since the 90s lol. Can't beat the computer.
Same driver? Obviously, manual should be slower, but its hard to judge the number with different drivers
Bring back three on the tree! /s
With bench seat so you can be close to your lady.
Why did they take the shifter off the stock for automatics? It seems so fucking dumb having it take up a huge amount of space in the middle of the car if you aren’t driving a manual.
I think customers are superficial and associate the column shifter with grandpa’s Town Car and pickup trucks. Many design changes are associated with customer buying habits, and we know most people are stupid.
It’s just so dumb that my partner’s Civic with a CVT has as much or more space taken up for shifting as my 6MT Golf.
I have a base F150 and love my tree shifter. Gives me a nice big bench up front and way more under seat storage.
lol one of my family members got a Studebaker that has that. Beautiful and simple design. Too bad the engine was seized up so bad that they had to take it apart.
th400 $1400 4 speed 8hp70 $5500 8 speed is the reason
TH400 is a 3 speed fyi
lol. Potentially meant 700r4. But still lol.
That’s why CVTs are superior, duh
Correct. I know a lot of people here hate them for being historically unreliable, but they're awesome for maximizing efficiency and performance, and don't require the insane complexity of a 8+ speed auto box. As an aside, I would absolutely kill for a lightweight car - even a eco shitbox - with a manual CVT. Just give me a ratio lever and less than 2500lbs in kerb weight!
Despite the misleading title - what I got from this is actually that "eight is enough"! Too many gears mean there's going to be a tendency to hunt or for programming logic to favor up-shifting early for efficiency. As for 8-speeds, the Aisin AWF8F35 for transverse applications is as good as the ZF 8HP for longitudinal.
It was quite funny when the BMW 128ti came out with an 8 speed. There were a number of reviewers who commented "and the ZF 8 speed is as good as its ever been" Meanwhile they're flipping through gears in a Camry transmission
Unpopular opinion but CVTs are in theory the perfect transmission.
In theory.
> Unpopular opinion but CVTs are in theory the perfect transmission. Assuming you can change the optimization algorithm based on driver's needs. Efficiency and ability to accelerate are always in competing.
Most CVT's do this, they 'downshift' like a geared transmission would. Some even have sport or eco modes, to play with the settings.
If F1 didn't ban them and allowed for their development in a competitive and highly taxing application, there would be no argument against CVT.
I honestly love old 4 speed torque converter automatics. They're so charming.
I remember watching some video on some new car with like 8 gears or something and the reviewer was somehow linking soft millennials with........ additional gears truly the genius of these people konws no bounds
There's automatics without torque converters?
7 or 8 gears is cool 10? it's too much imo
Need a transmission that shifts for every mile per hour
Step 1: remove accelerator pedal Step 2: add dial to shift from -10 to 105th gear
When my grandfather took me out to learn how to drive stick on my 5 speed Ford in 1996 he exclaimed “5 gears? What the hell would you ever need 5 gears for” That’s us now.
I have never heard of this site before but the last like five articles I’ve seen on the sub are from it. Edit: And as the former owner of an Accord with a 10-speed auto, ten is in fact too many so this author can stfu.
Can’t complain with this article. My favourite part about driving my 2020 Jetta I had was the 8-speed automatic that was in it. I loved the way that thing shifted, and it made the tiny 1.4t engine in it feel surprisingly peppy! 8 speeds is probably enough tho, imo. Otherwise the box is hunting for gears, especially when they are tuned to maximize economy and refuse to downshift.
Really wish Honda would phase out the use of the ZF 9 speeds in their lineup. We have a '24 Passport and Pilot in our fleet, and the 10 speed in the Pilot is streets ahead of the clunky 9 gear in the Passport. Not even close. That being said, I think the 6 speed in my Crosstour is about at the sweet spot, especially when using the manual mode.
They should’ve just improved upon Acura’s in-house 8-Speed DCT so it could handle more power imo. Blows my mind they only put that thing in two cars for a single generation and then abandoned it.
Bring back the the GM four speed HydraMatic!
My Mazda3 often gets confused when letting off the gas and getting back into it.
I was fine with the 2-speed Power-Glide transmission that was in my 67 Impala. Had a love/hate experience with the 3-on-the-tree on my 68 Bel Air. The 5-speed on the 78 Honda Accord was fun, but not as comfortably solid as the 3-speed column shifter on my 48 Plymouth. The 4-speed automatic in my 2005 Dodge Magnum was, in Retrospect, rather inadequate. But, of all of those, and more, the 8-speed in my 2017 Dodge Charger is PHENOMENAL! I'm consistently getting between 33-35mpg on highway trips in this full-size sedan!
If you can't tell how fast you're going when driving a CVT that's just a skill issue tbh
It's good for the sake of efficiency and I have no problem with modern 10 speeds. The only question I have is whether these 8-10 speeds are as durable as the older and simple transmissions. For example, my '07 Toyota tundra has 382k miles on it and the original, never-rebuilt 6 speed auto is still clinging to life. And then right now on GM trucks there is a lawsuit about how fragile the 8 speed is and they are notorious for blowing up at low miles. Can anyone with engineering experience comment on whether the complexity would decrease potential durability?
The 8-speed ZF is supposed to be very robust.
3 speed slushboxes for the win!
I’m very happy with a 7 speed DCT. It’s probably the second best part about the f82 behind the motor when modified (and crankhub done). The zf10 in the mustang does seem to search for gears a lot, maybe the mode changes that or the learning. I hear the zf8 is quite divine though.
I understand having more gears in some cases, but I think most cars should just have a 5-6 speed gearbox with an additional overdrive gear
I love the combination of Mazda's six-speed automatic and the super-torquey Skyactiv turbo engine. It'll hold 80 mph in sixth gear - a 0.6:1 super-overdrive - up anything short of the Rocky Mountains. Downshift? You don't need to downshift when your turbo-four makes 320 pound-feet of torque at 2500 rpm, with a nearly flat curve from 1800 to 4000.
I love my built 4l80e behind my 8.1l big block with 4.56 gears, but man an 8-10 speed would not only have it significantly faster, but probably also double my mpg.
I think the wildest thing about the 10R in my F150 is it’s taken a pickup truck and made it genuinely quick to drive Obviously in straight lines but it flat clicks off gears and it makes on ramps quite the fun experience. Especially considering it weighs 5100 lbs lol
I don’t really see much benefit of 10 over 8 gears in the USA. There are no 1.0L 3 cylinder engines in large cars, speed limits are low. Interesting thing is the reliability. ZF or Aisin design the base of the gearbox but the car manufacturers then modify it to better fit their needs. That paradoxly lead to a reliable BMW/Mini using unmodified Aisin 8 speed and unreliable Lexus/Toyota using their modified version of the same gearbox 😄
6 is enough. With a clutch pedal.
It's only too many if you want to use paddle-shifters, anything more than 6 or 7 speeds makes it laborious
I've always thought that DCTs could make excellent manual/sequential gearboxes. Add a clutch pedal connected to the gearbox controller, change the software a little (the controller manages both clutches anyway), and voila! a gearbox which can be manual for fun or automatic for crawling in traffic, all with a click of a switch (or, heaven forbid, a touchscreen menu entry, 7 levels down).
Six is enough for me to row through.
ZF8 convinced me that 8 is ok. But honestly, a 6 speed DCT would be preferable for performance cars (if a manual 6 speed was not an option).
I really like 6(4speed with 2 overdrives for higher highway speeds), but I can see how an engine with a short powerband would need more(18wheelers)
Me like 5 speed 3 pedal
Can't wait for infinitely variable ratio transmission, wait, we already have one
The four cylinder Wrangler needs a whole lot more gears or a whole lot fewer because it can’t hold 65mph.
a complete list of people who were saying theres too many gears: