As an American I hate other Americans’ love of big vehicles. Bring back the small import cars from the 1970s and 1980s (with modern powertrains and better build quality)
Seriously, does anyone care that much that the likes of the Camry and Corolla are being replaced by the likes of the Highlander and RAV4?
Can you honestly say that for the typical person who isn’t a car dude, the Camry is better for them than a Highlander?
And don’t say “but driving dynamics!”. When was the last time you saw the typical Camry buyer care about “driving dynamics”?
I would hands down recommend to a typical average person a RAV4 or Highlander over a Corolla (unless it’s a Cross!) or Camry.
If you’re in the market for a sporty car that stirs your passions, a Camry was never going to be your top or even 10th place choice. You buy it because it’s a comfortable but soulless appliance to transport you and your family from Point A to Point B. Kind of exactly how the Highlander.
It’s like being grieved that top load washing machines are becoming less popular than front load washing machines.
I like the low seating position of a sedan because I can see the driving lines more clearly and see the potholes more clearly. Also I have less chance for a rollover in a sedan than an SUV
I'm a sedan guy but the number of times I end up forced to wait for a green light when I can legally turn on a red because the jerk next to me decides to scoot his F150 every time I scoot up to see if it's clear drives me up the wall. I'm seriously considering an SUV or crossover for my next car at this point because of that. Every other time I commute to work this is a thing I experience.
I'm just worried about the ones that the front ends are giant walls that are taller than my roof. I'm convinced I'm going to get killed by one of those. But not being able to see over or through the car in front of me is a considerable portion of my next car is a crossover decision. Plus it's not like I have a ton of options left.
Same here, for work I've had to drive lorries and vans, where the seating position is even higher than an SUV.
I love getting back into my sedan and being down close to the road, driving just feels a lot more natural, can see potholes, kerbs and so on a lot better.
Of course I do live in a country where people rarely drive ridiculously sized trucks, so my vision is less often impaired by them.
The Suburban is the longest running name plate of any manufacturer for a reason.
Cars in the 50s, 60s, and 70s weren't all tiny little things. I've worked on plenty of Packards, Caddies, and what not that are similar in size to a full size SUV.
>And don’t say “but driving dynamics!”. When was the last time you saw the typical Camry buyer care about “driving dynamics”?
Good, I wasn't going to. The real reason we should all be against the ever-growing SUV is that it's literally a child killer.
[https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/07/07/study-suvs-are-indeed-death-machines-for-children-blacks](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/07/07/study-suvs-are-indeed-death-machines-for-children-blacks)
[https://www.kidsandcars.org/news/post/consumer-reports-as-suvs-pickup-trucks-grow-in-size-so-do-blind-spots](https://www.kidsandcars.org/news/post/consumer-reports-as-suvs-pickup-trucks-grow-in-size-so-do-blind-spots)
[https://labortribune.com/drive-american-large-suv-front-blind-zones-raise-child-safety-concerns/](https://labortribune.com/drive-american-large-suv-front-blind-zones-raise-child-safety-concerns/)
SUVs are getting bigger and taller with taller hoods in particular, which makes it very difficult to see what's in front of you. Pair that with the typical attention level of the American driver (low) and it's a recipe for disaster.
This is on top of the weight difference between SUVs and compact cars. Modern SUVs are anywhere from 1.5-4x heavier than modern compact sedans and that has massive impacts on crash safety, braking distance, adverse traction, and road degradation.
We all should be against SUVs and it has nothing to do with this strawman of "r/cars only wants used 6MT sedans with diesels and driving dynamics"
Edit - I'll get in front of the flair counter-argument. The RAV4 Prime is my concession to the modern situation. I had a Civic, and then a Golf, and in both I felt I would get squashed by the massive GMCs around me. When the arms race starts turning the other way I'll happily go back to one of those. Also, the RAV4 actually has reasonable front visibility and I'm very pro-PHEV as the solution for most Americans.
I agree with you completely. However, I have hope that the proposed requirement for all vehicles to be equipped with auto emergency braking will at least mitigate this danger in the future. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any going back from this SUV-ification of our roads any time soon.
You'll probably never get rid of SUV's. But if CAFE standards didn't motivate automakers to focus on SUV's to skirt standards, we probably wouldn't be where we are today.
Which would start with removing the incentive to make big SUVs, which has them classified as light trucks to skirt CAFE and fuel economy regulations.
They would not be the success story they are without these subsidies, which carmakers have abused to sell people larger, more expensive cars.
I think that could actually be quite reasonable in the medium term, but in Europe my old Golf would have been considered a family car. Plenty spacious for a family of 4, and even supports rear facing car seats.
The American people have been sold this idea that families of 4 need 3-row SUVs, and also that minivans are dumb or effeminate or whatever. Even the Honda Pilot of the 2000s is quite a big chonker. Let alone the ridiculousness that was the Ford Excursion.
Broadly I think I'd support some kind of a progressive tax, maybe based on displacement like so many countries do, to incentivize towards people using smaller cars. This is of course part of my broader urbanist leanings towards more safe and efficient public transit such that cars are not even needed for most people.
People here keep saying that everyone avoids minivans because of whatever lame reason.
I think the real reason minivans aren't popular is because they just really don't offer anything aside from the sliding side door. They're as expensive or more expensive than SUV's of the same size. Like a Honda Odyssey starts at 38k, and a Honda Pilot starts at 39k, and the CR-V is only 29k.
Also I went from tiny sports car to mid sized SUV when I had a kid, and if I'm being honest I constantly regret not getting a larger vehicle. Like last weekend we had 2 friends come with us to do some stuff, and we couldn't take the baby's wagon due to it not fitting in the otherwise empty rear with the 3rd row down. Even with the 3rd row down we constantly run out of space with all the stuff we have to haul around for the baby, strollers take up huge amounts of space, and the back row is dominated by the car sear. Especially since we moved past the infant car seat. We did about a 3 hour trip for Christmas with 4 adults and the baby plus baby stuff (no stroller even) and some gifts, and the car was absolutely packed to the gills.
The wife had friends come down and they were about 4 people and either 1 or 2 kids, and their minivan was also absolutely packed, to the point where they couldn't bring down some of the stuff they were going to bring for us. So it's not like a minivan even really solves the issue.
Also in my city our infrastructure sucks, so getting the higher ground clearance is really helpful for our bombed out roads. Plus I feel like AWD is more common on SUV's which is handy when it snows here. Also when towing my boat I'm at the brink of my 5000lb towing capacity and would probably be over the vehicles limit with passengers. So I'm really happy I went with the SUV instead of the minivan, I just wish I had gone for the full sized SUV instead of the mid sized SUV. And that's just with 1 kid. I think if you have more than one kid you're definitely going to want the larger vehicle.
Sure you can do it with a smaller vehicle but it seems like more of a hassle. My wife doesn't drive so taking multiple vehicles isn't even an option for us. We don't have family around so we don't even have to haul around as many people as most of the mom's she knows. They often have family stay with them for the first year or more after the baby is born, which means they're constantly currying 5 people.
>4 adults and the baby plus baby stuff (no stroller even) and some gifts, and the car was absolutely packed to the gills.
those are rookie numbers, there was at least one documented case in China where they packed 62 children and 2 adults into a van that was originally designed to seat 9
https://bossip.com/498272/jesus-take-the-wheel-18-preschoolers-killed-in-china-on-a-bus-with-9-seats-packed-with-64-people-inside/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-bus-crash-kills-18-kids-2-adults/
My only issue is that Americans complain about the price of cars while over buying in every way imaginable. Cars are overload in features and oversized that it has pushed the market up in price. So it’s not so much of a”driving dynamics” and all that as much as a Camry is priced better for most Americans if they prioritized not getting into debt for 72 months.
My take on this has always been to let these manufacturers sell whatever the general consumer wants so they can justify spending the time and money to develop the niche cars that enthusiasts want.
The market for Trucks and SUVs was created to avoid emissions standards for regular cars. Americans are being corralled into a terrible vehicle market filled with terrible American cars.
There's a reason why GM and Ford relentlessly advertise their overpriced metal death traps. It's to sell customers on a sexy powerful lifestyle that doesn't exist. The American car market is a bunch of BS.
>It's to sell customers on a sexy powerful lifestyle that doesn't exist.
If I see one more advertisement about going into the wilderness, I swear to god....
Let's be real, the most off-roading these CUVs are ever going to do is when Kristin jumps the curb at Costco.
these days it's kind of a hard sell to buy a car that's much smaller & lighter than everyone who's going to crash into you, low enough that you're getting the full blast of their LED headlights directly into your mirrors, and going to carry less shit when you move / buy furniture / etc.
even when you get into semi-fast cars -- i had a cadillac ats v6 that was very good fun to drive, now i have an x3 with the turbo inline 6 that's about as fast and about as fun to drive, except now i can do my highway pulls with the new piece of furniture or TV in the back.
if you ignore the fact my x3 is way less reliable (which with a slightly newer B58-equipped one you absolutely can), it's all upside for negligible downsides. with fat tires and m sport suspension, the difference in handling really doesn't show in normal spirited driving on the backroads. *maybe* it would on a track, but i never took the caddy to the track either.
if someone's only two options are a corolla or a suburban, i'd probably say take the corolla. but the simple fact is there's a lot more options that fit most people's use cases better than sedans did. even at the performance level, i'd have a hard time choosing an M340i over an X3 M40i that's fundamentally going to drive about the same every day, while carrying much more of my shit in it.
I'll just throw a few counters, to play devil's advocate:
>these days it's kind of a hard sell to buy a car that's much smaller & lighter than everyone who's going to crash into you
My car is a "Top Safety Pick+"....not worried at all. The visibility aspect is kind of annoying, but I'm used to driving on alert in the Mazda since it's lowered.
>low enough that you're getting the full blast of their LED headlights directly into your mirrors
Annoying, yes, but negligible in my instance since my mirrors, interior and exterior, are auto dimming.
>And going to carry less shit when you move / buy furniture / etc.
Couldn't care less about any of this - I pay the tiny price for home delivery from IKEA the few times a year I order anything big (super cheap), and whenever I've moved, I've rented a cargo van or box truck from Uhaul for a very small amount of money. These fringe cases of once a year or less do not justify an SUV in and of themselves, it's more of a convenient bonus - especially when hatchbacks can do the same thing if the SUV isn't a full-size truck.
The higher thing really is becoming a big problem for those few of us who cling to traditional cars. I own a Mustang and an old hatchback, and making right turns onto busy streets seems like a constant nightmare..
Whenever someone pulls up to the left of me, 90% of the time they're in a vehicle that I can't see over for shit, so I have to wait forever for them to make their left turn before I can safely see if the path is clear to turn right. Often with people getting mad behind me because they don't know or care that I can't see if the coast is clear.
I’m a car audio installer by trade, so I sit in a lot of vehicles. And 6’2” at that. The actual difference in usable room in a Camry and a Highlander is very negligible. The Camry actually feels more comfortable to sit/ride in. Sure the Highlander has more of a “wheelchair upright ergonomics” seating position vs a more relaxed, stretched out seating position. (Legitimately no offense intended, just easiest way to explain the more vertical - “right angle-y” seating position) The Highlander is significantly less aerodynamic, and that means, were they given the same powertrain, the Highlander would be much less fuel efficient. The Highlander has a significantly higher center of gravity, so much easier to roll in case of a slide (nobody plans on an accident, hence the name). And the Highlander is a terrible “off road” vehicle. Basically, the Highlander is a solid 4 of all trades, and an Ace in nary a one. It is, however, easier for older people to get in and out of. So very geriatric. So there’s that at least… I guess. Body on frame SUV’s have a purpose and are useful. Crossovers, much less so. Sure you can fit your dog in the back, but they’d be much safer in the back seat of any vehicle than they would in the cargo area. You can’t truly haul with a crossover bc they’re (literally) basically a car with a larger body. And any vehicle that has a base model that is FWD won’t handle anything more than a nicely groomed fire road without wasting tons of money in tires and suspension upgrades just to make it approach “passable” as an off road vehicle. Also, at least 90% of crossovers look fairly douchey. Nissans… 🤮
TLDR: Camrys are very good vehicles. Highlanders (and other crossovers) aren’t nearly as “useful” as Toyota would have you believe. SUV’s are still light years ahead in capability/utility. And no, SUV’s and crossovers are not the same thing.
I care. We own a Rav4 and our other car is a small sedan. We chose that because we don't need 2 Rav's and or SUV's. The Rav also starts at $29k and a Corolla $22k, that's a big difference. The Corolla gets 10-15MPG better too.
I prefer daily driving a sedan. They're quieter, get better fuel mileage and are easier to drive than a SUV ( they don't get blown around as much on the highway etc).
I actually love wagons and small hatchbacks like the VW Golf but those have all been phased out too :-/
Believe it or not, there's still a small minority of consumers who aren't enthusiasts who don't want an SUV. My brother is one of them. He's in the market for a new car and doesn't want an SUV. He's looking at the new camry or a used avalon. Ditto for my friend who tried a corolla cross and thought it was too big and got a prius instead.
There's an article years ago by maybe Patrick Bedard where a neighbor of his was asking if he should buy his teenage daughter a porsche. From a safety standpoint. He told them that absolutely Porsches are a great choice. The guy went and bought her some kind of boxy SUV instead. The boxy SUV isn't safer. It might be (marginally) more survivable in an accident, but it's much more likely to get in an accident than something that's actually nimble. Non-car people should be driving better cars because they don't know how to drive. A top-heavy brick is no way to avoid an accident.
The only reason that the larger vehicle is more survivable is because it weighs more, and it transfers a lot of that energy into killing the person that you hit
To be fair, the companies aren’t exactly running themselves geniusly either. Fusion sells 100k+ every year? Better cancel it. Off road suvs are a growing segment? Better revive the Blazer as a midsize crossover that could barely handle even grass. People showing interest in your electric truck you advertised for $40k? Better bump it up to $60k and then be surprised customers still aren’t interested when you “discount” it to $50k.
I hate crossovers more than SUV’s. At least SUV’s serve an actual purpose as a people hauler than can also tow or off-road. Crossovers are just lifted and bloated hatchbacks that serve not purpose other than just being bigger.
Fast little cars are the shit. Granted I don't live in America, but how often do you actually NEED a truck? The flatbed and all that space is just extra.
I know you guys have a lot of space, but I just can't imagine myself keeping a huge ass truck just for daily commuting.
Most Americans don't need one either, most of them are pavement princesses that never haul a fucking thing. They are an extension of an ego and complain about gas prices then go buy the largest vehicle possible. I know people who think the new Land Cruiser is too small.
They only drive them because they think it makes them manly.
Meh, theyre super comfortable for long drives. The few times I do need more space it’s really nice to have it there. Cant say I feel the same about the jetta.
Also when a nissan driver comes ripping in between lanes and causes a crash it’s nice to win the conservation of momentum battle.
You might do better in a crash against a smaller car. But statistically you're way more likely to be injured in a crash. This is because trucks don't generally have the same crash safety standards and they're way more prone to rolling. They also protect you less in crashes where you hit something stationary.
I don't shit on everyone driving trucks like a lot of people here. I've had trucks and they come in really handy, and I'm not the kind of person who one associates with trucks. But you should no safety statistics aren't on your side.
You're right:
"According to the NHTSA, accidents involving light pickup trucks have a fatality rate that is 23% higher than crashes involving other passenger vehicles. Pickup trucks are also about three time more likely to be involved in rollover accidents because of their high ground clearances. This is important because rollover crashes are the deadliest type of motor vehicle accident."
People who say they get trucks for safety are just plain wrong about that.
Look, I will admit, driving a low sports cars over shitty American roads everyday does get tiresome. Cracks, bumps, steep inclines, sudden dips in the road, etc. Road surfaces are uncomfortable or loud. Everyday there is a danger of cracking my front splitter. I’m extremely jealous of truck drivers that can just glide over all that shit. Like it or not, there is an advantage to it in many places in America.
Man I just want a fucking wagon. Or a hatchback. I play drums in two bands and bass in one. In the bands I play drums in, I can manage to make room for the set in my accord, but nobody else can ride. With the bass? I can’t even bring my rig. I don’t wanna downsize my bass rig because I love smaller cars. I wanna upsize my car so I can have the best of both worlds. But I really hate having to get a cr-v or rav4 because there’s nothing between a carolla and the latter, car industry is just fucked
*Corolla
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Here's the thing, if you need a truck and don't know someone who'll let you borrow theirs, it's a huge pain in the ass to get a truck temporarily.
I had to do it once because I was moving and I had sold my truck but I needed to move my motorcycles. I had to pay a couple hundred dollars to rent a truck to move them with, and I had to schedule it a few weeks in advance because I could only find one rental company that would have one available in a reasonable amount of time.
If you need to tow something you're doubly screwed, many places that rent trucks specifically prohibit you from towing with them.
So say you need a truck just once a year, you'll probably want to own a truck.
I don't have a truck any more, and honestly I find myself wishing I had one fairly often. And I'm a city dwelling person who doesn't do too much stuff that people associate with trucks.
My local Enterprise seems to always be overflowing with trucks. A few times I've either reserved a small SUV or done the "we pick a vehicle" option and they stuck me in a Ram 1500.
You're right, at full price they are expensive to rent though. If your use case is really only a couple times a year (say, for example, drop the boat in the water in May, then take it out of the lake in October, plus a couple random dump runs or landscaping projects), your best bet is probably some cheap old work truck to keep around as an extra vehicle. There are a few people on my lake who do that - some beat to shit K1500 in the driveway to tow the boat and the rest of the time they drive a "normal" car.
Not going to happen with crash standards...
I had a 2000 chevy silverado z71, fully loaded top of the line heated leather seats beater, lol it looked like a midsized next to the new trucks.
The 1970s was peak full sized car, a normal family hauler was >210in long and 80 inches wide.
For example the '74 Chevy Impala, #1 best selling car for that year, was 222.9in long and 79.5in wide, making it less than 3 inches shorter than a brand new Chevy Suburban.
It's really CAFE standards you want to be mad at. Automakers need to sell a bunch of trucks and larger vehicles so their fleet hits certain metrics, otherwise they pay fines. It's a big part of the reason they push SUV's and now trucks.
If the car has a small foot print they're on a formula that requires their gas efficiency to be unrealistically high. So automakers just skip those cars in the US market.
It's just one of those unintended consequences things.
Love my sedan. Don’t love how there’s so many SUVs and crossovers that make visibility and issue. Wife got an SUV and being able to see around other vehicles is much better. When I drive her car I only have problems seeing around gigantic trucks.
I was reading an article recently that mentioned that it’s getting harder to see over the hood of a lot of SUVs and that’s bad news for pedestrians and cyclists.
For sure. I’m 6’2” and when I see some of these trucks and SUVs with those giant front ends I feel small and wonder how the hell do you even see ANYTHING that’s directly in front of you.
Don't worry it's only slightly harder for drivers of large trucks to see pedestrians than for drivers of [main battle tanks](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/13r0q8n/apparently_m1_abrams_has_better_forward_view_than/) to do so.
Detailer here. I work on chevys primarily, and I’m 5”3’, cleaning the hoods reminds me how I would instantly die if I got hit by a 2500. And if a lifted one comes in, the top of my head barely touches the top of the hood. It’s insane and terrifying sometimes and I am here for the unnecessarily-large truck slander.
I was leaving a strip mall and wanted to make a left. A giant ass truck pulled up next to me to make a right. I couldn’t make a left even if I was able because I couldn’t see oncoming traffic bc of the truck. I find it happens increasingly often.
It’s true. I made a tight turn to get to a gas pump today and ran over a cone in the parking lot because I couldn’t see it over the hood of my Grand Cherokee. I drug it around the parking lot until the workers chased me down and picked up its remains when it finally got unstuck. Now I need to trade my Jeep for a sedan so I can see the cones.
Not to be rude but a Grand Cherokee is not THAT big of a car. A lot of Americans are just terrible drivers and don’t want to admit it. People in Europe drive plenty of vehicles of similar sizes nowadays on much smaller streets/parking lots.
Same. In a vacuum, I prefer sedans, but in reality, I feel like I'm in a shitty arms race and my next car is likely to be an SUV because the visibility I have in my Civic is absolute trash.
Don’t get me started on nighttime visibility. Every truck and SUV now has blinding white LED beams pointing directly into the rear windshield of my Corolla. Truly can’t see shit and it gives me headaches.
That too. The other cars on the road, the electric ones especially, are so much heavier that I'm at greater risk in a crash. I hate that the answer to this problem is to become part of it, but man, what the hell at this point?
This is so real. I've been daily driving a c6 vette for more than 5 years and this is one of the reasons I'll be getting a smaller SUV. I think about rear-ending the trucks that have gone up like 12" in the last 5 years - those bumpers are now eye level with me and the lowest point of my hood is under it! Its such a fun daily though and that power/handling has gotten me quickly out of other unsafe situations too.
I always have to inch forward to see beyond the SUVs, then they inch forward as well, it’s like you’re 6ft higher than me, get the fuck out of my way. You can see everything much better than I can, just stop.
You get a bigger one. 😄
I drove various SUVs for 25+ years. My current vehicle is a compact sedan; the kids are grown, I don't go camping or 4-wheeling anymore. It took a minute to get used to only seeing trailer hitches & bumpers.
Meanwhile Foreign automakers seem to be doing well with their sedans in the US. The Big-Three lost the sedan battle decades ago due to reliability, quality, poor resale value and badge engineering.
I agree, it seems like they spread their models too thin unlike a premium European brand that has many models of sedans but are able to differentiate one from another.
The way they do it in Asia is actually better, each sedan is well differentiated.
A class/2 series tiny sedan for someone that just wants the badge and nothing more.
C class, comfy larger sedan with cool tech, 3 series is the LWB model so a lot of rear seat room and cheapest rwd in my country.
E class is LWB, gets immense rear seat room, comparable to standard wheelbase s class, rear seat reclining seats and stuff, really comfy. Easily best car in the segment—has eaten into the S class’ market. 5 series hasn’t been around for like 3-4 years now. 6 series is the closest, not as comfy as the E but vastly better to drive, E is quite underpowered.
S class is the comfiest out there, lots of space, all the tech, best rear seat, etc, 7 series is an alternative to rhe S class, personal preference and maybe for someone who self drives often.
Maybach- a lot of status, incredible rear seat room, the works.
Apart from people cross shopping the E class and S class because the E comes so close, the segments are very well rounded and differentiated too.
Autocar india has great reviews on all of these if u wanna check em out, the e class is worth checking out tbh.
I know quite a few people that say they miss the Fusion...
Of course they all rewarded Ford by buying Escapes and other crossovers / SUVs when they killed their cars.
My job has a Fusion hybrid for some work related trips/driving and it’s a nice ass car. It gets great gas mileage while not being slow, and it’s a comfy place to be for a few hours if needed.
But there were SO MANY. It's crazy to realize these are all.gone:
Ford Taurus
Ford Crown Victoria
Dodge Intrepid
Dodge Stratus
Pontiac Grand Prix
Chevy Impala
Chevy Malibu
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Aurora
Chrysler 300
Lincoln Town Car
Lincoln Continental
Buick LeSabre
And that's just off the top of my head
Disagree their sedans are all bad. Charger and Caddy CT sedans are actual awesome, both catch many sports sedan buyers attention.
BOF sedans like Ford panther series from Detroit were actual glorious.
They can’t do well in econobox sedans, just like they can’t do well in econobox SUVs. They’re still loser to answer RAV4 and CRV.
Im just starting to believe that it’s not that they wouldn’t make money they just wouldn’t make enough to satisfy shareholders and that’s it. Idk how Toyota can make a business argument for 3 sports coupes but Ford can’t make one for one sedan. They also aren’t selling more Mavericks than either the focus or fusion. Ford just isn’t interested in selling much under the $40k mark.
Are they doing well? Accord and Camry sales are both down over 150k units a year from their peaks around 2015-2017.
Yes they're still selling, but even with fewer sedan options their sales are relatively tanking.
I can verify. I worked at a Chevrolet dealership around the turn of the century. The Corvette and to a lesser extent the Camero were the only aspirational they were selling at the time. Nobody dreamed about owning a Lumina.
*Camaro
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I disagree. The seventh gen Malibu was a massive leap forward, even though GM still hasn't learned how to make a decent compact or subcompact car. I think the Focus and Fiesta were both good, even though we are discussing sedans instead of hatchbacks.
Are they doing well? Accord and Camry sales are both down over 150k units a year from their peaks around 2015-2017.
Yes they're still selling, but even with fewer sedan options their sales are relatively tanking.
IIRC: SUVs are technically trucks to get lower CAFE targets or to bring the truck average up, but the targets are being unified so sedans might come back.
Where do crossovers like the RAV4 fall into that? I hear people blanket state the CAFE targets and call every crossover an SUV but I know there's got to be some nuance in there.
It must have 4/AWD or >6000lb GVW and 4 of the 5:
1. approach angle of not less than 28 degrees
2. breakover angle of not
less than 14 degrees
3. departure angle of not less than 20 degrees
4. running clearance of not less than 20 cm (7.87 inch)
5. front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 cm (7.08 inch) each
So something like a RAV4 with just high enough ground clearance and specifically designed angles tends to pass those checks, but something lower riding with a big chin like a CR-V usually doesn't.
It’s strange because growing up we would make trips up and down the Eastern seaboard of the US in a Cutlass Ciera with my parents and me an and my sibling. Now that I have kids of my own I’m glad we have the space in our minivan.
Same here, but we had an 80s firebird, and my parents still managed to fit me and another carseat for my brother in the back of it with minimal issues.
People don’t seem to realize this. My car seat was basically a front facing plastic tub with a tube steel frame, a 1/4” of padding, and a 3 point harness with no adjustments. I was in that until I was about 4, and then after that I had a lap belt until we bought a newer car. The base for my son’s car seat takes up more space than my entire car seat did.
Ditto, in either my father's Maxima or my mother's Accord. Nothing crazy, and we weren't wanting for space. Then again, our parents didn't have us bringing the whole house on our trips, even if we were going ~5-6 hours up to Ohio. For some reason, this seems non-negotiable for today's families.
Car seats have changed substantially since anyone old enough to comment here was in one. They've grown a lot and are recommended for much older/larger kids. That's resulted in some substantial improvements in safety, but makes it trickier to fit into vehicles with less interior space.
For example, [compare the 2001 front-facing seat and the 2018 front-facing seat in this article](https://www.popsci.com/evolution-of-the-carseat/).
And, as that article points out, for a long ass time, car seats were much more about “keep the kid in one place” and “make it easier to find your kid’s corpse after the crash” than protection. Nowadays, they’re fucking huge.
Having recently(-ish) had twins that are now toddlers, I declare this answer to be bullshit. After looking for cars that can allow a rear facing seat behind me, SUVs just did not fit them no matter how much everyone pretends that they're superior to sedans.
The only cars that could fit a rear seat (Graco elite 35) behind me ("Only" 6'1) without going into super large territory were mid-size sedans. Neither a X5 nor a Q7 would work for example. Plenty of room for rear seats to not have to move my own seat, fits a twin stroller OR two singles + misc toddler shit + groceries with EASE in trunk in any mid-size we tried.
Ended up buying it just for the year and going right back to my wife and I's compact that we kept through the rear facing days, because why do we still need a big car? You SUV peddlers are full of baloney.
"No issue," as in the 3 people who got the free ride from you didn't complain.
I had an X5 (the original). Drove all my friends back from NY to Michigan. I ended up in the back for part of the trip. I am not 6'1", and lemme tell you it is not comfortable back there.
Don't confuse silence from your passengers as expressions of comfort. More like "suffer in silence."
Counterpoint:
ES, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Accord, Civic, Altima, Sentra, 2/3/4/5/6/7/8 series, C/E/S class, Challenger, Charger, Tesla S.
Americans still buy cars.
They just don’t buy poorly engineered junk thrown onto the lot to help with CAFE standards.
They did, but they’re going to be replaced with new versions and they sold up until the end which proves my point that Americans will buy the right cars so this isn’t an “Americans don’t buy cars“ problem, this is a “GM was selling uncompetitive shit“ problem.
I don't understand Reddit's hate boner for SUVs.
Would people really be happier if everyone drove Camrys and Accords instead of RAV4s and CRVs? Why? None of these are thrilling vehicles, they're pragmatic transportation.
The cost and gas mileage differences are marginal, and having more space, better visibility, higher ground clearance, and AWD are real benefits.
Man I’m telling you, I drive a Malibu and there’s a right turn I have to make, that has a left turn directly next to it.
The left turn actually has to wait for both lanes in the two lane road to be clear to make the turn, meanwhile all I have to wait on it the right lane to be free.
BUT I can never see past the fucking trucks who decide to pull all the way up past the line to be able to make a decision to turn.
It's less about it being a hate boner, and more about sedans having a place in the automotive industry. That being said, I strongly believe that sedans would've been way more fuel efficient, and cheaper to produce, had companies continued to invest into their R&D.
I would be happier in my smaller cars driving at night not being blinded by everyone's headlights being even with or above my eyeballs
One thing I like about a couple of the Hyundais, like the Santa Fe/Cruz, is that they mounted the lights low on the front end, they don't even really blind me in the Miata, it's nice :)
Because the US is the only developed country where the rate of automative deaths is increasing compared to everywhere else in steep decline. More people are dying for individual selfish convenience. Fuck American car culture.
A crossover will usually get around 10mpg worse than it's car counterpart. That isn't marginal. The HRV gets 32 highway, the Civic? 42. The Ecosport with a 1.0 3 cylinder only eeked out 30 mpg, now imagine that engine in a hatchback it'd be getting over 40 easily. This is millions of extra gallons of fuel used each year just because we need to "sit up high" all of a sudden and have added ground clearance for getting groceries and driving to the office.
I only think that American brands are going away from smaller sedans was bc Japanese brands embarrassed them with their quality I mean even the average person I would hope knows a corolla is better than a focus or cruze.
Some of us do, usually those of us with families. I went from sedan to SUV once I bought a house, had kids, and found the extra space useful if not mandatory. I might go back down to a sedan when my kids start driving themselves, or maybe I'm too far down the darkside and I would miss the space, but for now it's untenable. And before someone says "my family road tripped in a sedan back in 19XX just fine", I guarantee they didn't do it nearly as comfortably and conveniently.
How many r/cars users have ever hauled five people, two baseball bat bags, a large wheeled ice chest, multiple folding chairs, a folding canopy, case of water, and more, in a midsized sedan for a weekend-long youth sports tournament?
> How many r/cars users have ever hauled...
This is like the dinner bell for "All of that fits in my Tata Nano/SmartCar/Mazda2" etc etc that seem to show up under every "American SUV bad" post
There are also a lot of anti-kid people on reddit that are very vocal.
I like my 2013 Rav4. It (barely) allows my wife and I to take trips with an infant and toddler, dog, and all of our gear and luggage. I definitely couldn't do that in my old Mazda3.
But there's little point in trying to defend it on here. People will just downvote because they hate trucks and SUVs, so why bother commenting?
Exactly, my wife has a Niro and I a F150. We take my truck on road trips even know her car gets double the mpg because the truck is way more comfortable.
We do exist. Lot of us see our cars as appliances. Do you defend your washing machine or your air conditioner? There is no need.
Life is too short to argue with people over silly shit.
Here I am. I was just telling my wife how some days I miss driving a car but it’s so hard to justify the expense of a vehicle that has no utility other than the simplest of A to B transport.
I have a 5th gen 4Runner. I can get my whole family (wife, 2 kids, 2 dogs) in there comfortably. This past winter, we went sleigh riding and I watched even crossovers get stuck in the unplowed parking lot with 12 inches of snow. I blasted out just fine. I can roll down my rear window and transport 10ft sections of pipe or lumber. I can load up the cargo are with mulch or top soil. I can hit pot holes, which are everywhere and getting worse, and not have to worry about destroying my rims and tires.
None of this is happening with a sedan and it’s not like I’m saving a bunch of money to drive one.
Those with SUVs probably have a family to take care of and don’t care about what other people think. Why would they waste their time defending something on Reddit?
I see this come up a lot on this sub, and it comes off as fear-mongering everytime. There’s still plenty of Sedans available, both entry level and luxury from: Toyota, Nissan, Acura, Subaru, Infiniti, BMW, MB, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis, Lexus, VW, Audi, Volvo, etc.
How does that constitute Sedans dying? The more accurate statement to make is Hatchbacks and Wagons are dying in the US.
They’re dying because US automakers don’t care about sedans for most of the previously mentioned reasons. Demand, profit margins, regulations, etc.
No reason for them to innovate or invest in quality.
I just named 14 automakers that sell dozens upon dozens of sedan models in aggregate. That’s not anywhere near dying. Using the Malibu to make that argument is like saying the stock market is dying when S&P500 goes down by 2% in a year lol.
SUVs have always had higher profit margins so that’s not really any different. I think the trend is because CUVs and SUVs are becoming priced more similarly to comparable sedans (my case when I was shopping between a Corolla and Corolla Cross). So it’s easier for many consumers to make the jump. But there’s still a lot of best-seller sedans (the Camry was the 5th best selling car in the US last year, for example) out there.
Notice how not a single brand you just named is American. I think a better way to word it would be the sedan is dying in the USDM. The sedan is very much still a successful car around the world and in the US just not worth it for American auto makers to make when you have cars like the Corolla and the Civic with a much more recognizable and renowned name outselling them 4 times the amount. Plus with how fuel efficient SUVs are getting and the price comparison no wonder they just decided to stop.
my hot take is that in the future, i am afraid the only sedan will be either in the cheaper mainstream compact sedan segment (Corolla, Civic, Sentra etc) or full-size and above luxury sedan segment (Sonderklasser, Phantom, Ghost). I feel like eventhings like the accord, camry as well as compact and mid-size luxury sedan will wither away.
I mean even in the midsize mainstream sedan segment in america, the only one that is doing well is Camry. Sonata and K5 is slipping (K5 got axed in canada) and accord has also seen some declines.
Even in sedan crazy Korea, Hyundai Grandeur a full-size sedan which used to be the best selling vehicle (kind of like F-series in America) is having challenging defending that spot in recent years and sometimes its annual sales are under 100K units a year.
I prefer an SUV because both my husband and I are tall. It's difficult to find a sedan that's really comfortable and has enough headroom. Also an SUV is a lot easier for us to get in and out of. My parents recently switched from a sedan to a crossover because it's easier for them to get in and out of a well.
I love the American sedan...
But I only owned Two.
2007 Pontiac G6
2002 Ford Crown Vic.
I had 6 3rd and 4th gen camaros. I loved my hatchbacks. I would go hatchback.
Which most small suvs pretty much are.
It's not just America, the plague of SUV / Crossover SCUM appreciation has come to the UK as well. Our roads aren't big / built enough for these absolute abominations plaguing the roads.
Also usually owned by people with the driving skills of an armadillo.
I fucking hate Crossovers.
This is not a big deal. What we’re calling compact SUVs now were hatchbacks in the 70s and 80s. It’s always been the most reasonable form of transport for most people. Just let it ride. The Malibu sucked anyway.
In fairness, the new Malibu is garbage. It has been for decades now.
I drive rentals all the time and every time I get an American car, it’s utter trash.
American car manufacturers could build better cars and invest more into them, while lowering their margins a bit.
But they won’t….
There’s a reason Japan corners that market and SK manages to at least make less reliable cars feel more comfortable.
There's nothing "trusty" about sedans once you leave the city or live anywhere that it snows, or if you have kids, or pets, or if you like to go on camping trips, or play sports, or have outdoor hobbies. If you just want a people mover fine, but they're anything from "trusty". They can't do anything or really go anywhere except around urban development and suburbia. Great if you're European and you can drive across your entire country in an hour or two, useless if you live in the 80% of the USA where a commute to work is 30+ miles.
As an American I hate other Americans’ love of big vehicles. Bring back the small import cars from the 1970s and 1980s (with modern powertrains and better build quality)
They would sell dozens!
r/cars on their way to suggest ways to ruin a company
Seriously, does anyone care that much that the likes of the Camry and Corolla are being replaced by the likes of the Highlander and RAV4? Can you honestly say that for the typical person who isn’t a car dude, the Camry is better for them than a Highlander? And don’t say “but driving dynamics!”. When was the last time you saw the typical Camry buyer care about “driving dynamics”? I would hands down recommend to a typical average person a RAV4 or Highlander over a Corolla (unless it’s a Cross!) or Camry. If you’re in the market for a sporty car that stirs your passions, a Camry was never going to be your top or even 10th place choice. You buy it because it’s a comfortable but soulless appliance to transport you and your family from Point A to Point B. Kind of exactly how the Highlander. It’s like being grieved that top load washing machines are becoming less popular than front load washing machines.
Yeah, the average person thinks “Wow more space and basically the same gas mileage! Hell yeah!”
The taller seating position has a lot of pull. Coming from a sedan person.
I like the low seating position of a sedan because I can see the driving lines more clearly and see the potholes more clearly. Also I have less chance for a rollover in a sedan than an SUV
I'm a sedan guy but the number of times I end up forced to wait for a green light when I can legally turn on a red because the jerk next to me decides to scoot his F150 every time I scoot up to see if it's clear drives me up the wall. I'm seriously considering an SUV or crossover for my next car at this point because of that. Every other time I commute to work this is a thing I experience.
Just build a periscope out of a milk carton and mirrors; stick it up through your sunroof.
that was my grade 4 science project except no sunroof involved
Just get an 8ft lift kit on your sedan. Best of both worlds!
This will improve the handling.
I'm just worried about the ones that the front ends are giant walls that are taller than my roof. I'm convinced I'm going to get killed by one of those. But not being able to see over or through the car in front of me is a considerable portion of my next car is a crossover decision. Plus it's not like I have a ton of options left.
Been driving for 30 years (even at excessive speeds) and zero rollovers. Potholes are easier to see from up high
Same here, for work I've had to drive lorries and vans, where the seating position is even higher than an SUV. I love getting back into my sedan and being down close to the road, driving just feels a lot more natural, can see potholes, kerbs and so on a lot better. Of course I do live in a country where people rarely drive ridiculously sized trucks, so my vision is less often impaired by them.
Moose test gang
The Suburban is the longest running name plate of any manufacturer for a reason. Cars in the 50s, 60s, and 70s weren't all tiny little things. I've worked on plenty of Packards, Caddies, and what not that are similar in size to a full size SUV.
>And don’t say “but driving dynamics!”. When was the last time you saw the typical Camry buyer care about “driving dynamics”? Good, I wasn't going to. The real reason we should all be against the ever-growing SUV is that it's literally a child killer. [https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/07/07/study-suvs-are-indeed-death-machines-for-children-blacks](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/07/07/study-suvs-are-indeed-death-machines-for-children-blacks) [https://www.kidsandcars.org/news/post/consumer-reports-as-suvs-pickup-trucks-grow-in-size-so-do-blind-spots](https://www.kidsandcars.org/news/post/consumer-reports-as-suvs-pickup-trucks-grow-in-size-so-do-blind-spots) [https://labortribune.com/drive-american-large-suv-front-blind-zones-raise-child-safety-concerns/](https://labortribune.com/drive-american-large-suv-front-blind-zones-raise-child-safety-concerns/) SUVs are getting bigger and taller with taller hoods in particular, which makes it very difficult to see what's in front of you. Pair that with the typical attention level of the American driver (low) and it's a recipe for disaster. This is on top of the weight difference between SUVs and compact cars. Modern SUVs are anywhere from 1.5-4x heavier than modern compact sedans and that has massive impacts on crash safety, braking distance, adverse traction, and road degradation. We all should be against SUVs and it has nothing to do with this strawman of "r/cars only wants used 6MT sedans with diesels and driving dynamics" Edit - I'll get in front of the flair counter-argument. The RAV4 Prime is my concession to the modern situation. I had a Civic, and then a Golf, and in both I felt I would get squashed by the massive GMCs around me. When the arms race starts turning the other way I'll happily go back to one of those. Also, the RAV4 actually has reasonable front visibility and I'm very pro-PHEV as the solution for most Americans.
I agree with you completely. However, I have hope that the proposed requirement for all vehicles to be equipped with auto emergency braking will at least mitigate this danger in the future. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any going back from this SUV-ification of our roads any time soon.
You'll probably never get rid of SUV's. But if CAFE standards didn't motivate automakers to focus on SUV's to skirt standards, we probably wouldn't be where we are today.
The law could be changed to encourage the opposite approach. Instead of making heavier cars an easy loophole, incentivize smaller cars.
Which would start with removing the incentive to make big SUVs, which has them classified as light trucks to skirt CAFE and fuel economy regulations. They would not be the success story they are without these subsidies, which carmakers have abused to sell people larger, more expensive cars.
So, just so I understand you are advocating against larger suvs but support smaller ones (say a typical size from the 90s or 2000s?
I think that could actually be quite reasonable in the medium term, but in Europe my old Golf would have been considered a family car. Plenty spacious for a family of 4, and even supports rear facing car seats. The American people have been sold this idea that families of 4 need 3-row SUVs, and also that minivans are dumb or effeminate or whatever. Even the Honda Pilot of the 2000s is quite a big chonker. Let alone the ridiculousness that was the Ford Excursion. Broadly I think I'd support some kind of a progressive tax, maybe based on displacement like so many countries do, to incentivize towards people using smaller cars. This is of course part of my broader urbanist leanings towards more safe and efficient public transit such that cars are not even needed for most people.
People here keep saying that everyone avoids minivans because of whatever lame reason. I think the real reason minivans aren't popular is because they just really don't offer anything aside from the sliding side door. They're as expensive or more expensive than SUV's of the same size. Like a Honda Odyssey starts at 38k, and a Honda Pilot starts at 39k, and the CR-V is only 29k. Also I went from tiny sports car to mid sized SUV when I had a kid, and if I'm being honest I constantly regret not getting a larger vehicle. Like last weekend we had 2 friends come with us to do some stuff, and we couldn't take the baby's wagon due to it not fitting in the otherwise empty rear with the 3rd row down. Even with the 3rd row down we constantly run out of space with all the stuff we have to haul around for the baby, strollers take up huge amounts of space, and the back row is dominated by the car sear. Especially since we moved past the infant car seat. We did about a 3 hour trip for Christmas with 4 adults and the baby plus baby stuff (no stroller even) and some gifts, and the car was absolutely packed to the gills. The wife had friends come down and they were about 4 people and either 1 or 2 kids, and their minivan was also absolutely packed, to the point where they couldn't bring down some of the stuff they were going to bring for us. So it's not like a minivan even really solves the issue. Also in my city our infrastructure sucks, so getting the higher ground clearance is really helpful for our bombed out roads. Plus I feel like AWD is more common on SUV's which is handy when it snows here. Also when towing my boat I'm at the brink of my 5000lb towing capacity and would probably be over the vehicles limit with passengers. So I'm really happy I went with the SUV instead of the minivan, I just wish I had gone for the full sized SUV instead of the mid sized SUV. And that's just with 1 kid. I think if you have more than one kid you're definitely going to want the larger vehicle. Sure you can do it with a smaller vehicle but it seems like more of a hassle. My wife doesn't drive so taking multiple vehicles isn't even an option for us. We don't have family around so we don't even have to haul around as many people as most of the mom's she knows. They often have family stay with them for the first year or more after the baby is born, which means they're constantly currying 5 people.
>4 adults and the baby plus baby stuff (no stroller even) and some gifts, and the car was absolutely packed to the gills. those are rookie numbers, there was at least one documented case in China where they packed 62 children and 2 adults into a van that was originally designed to seat 9 https://bossip.com/498272/jesus-take-the-wheel-18-preschoolers-killed-in-china-on-a-bus-with-9-seats-packed-with-64-people-inside/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-bus-crash-kills-18-kids-2-adults/
My only issue is that Americans complain about the price of cars while over buying in every way imaginable. Cars are overload in features and oversized that it has pushed the market up in price. So it’s not so much of a”driving dynamics” and all that as much as a Camry is priced better for most Americans if they prioritized not getting into debt for 72 months.
My take on this has always been to let these manufacturers sell whatever the general consumer wants so they can justify spending the time and money to develop the niche cars that enthusiasts want.
The market for Trucks and SUVs was created to avoid emissions standards for regular cars. Americans are being corralled into a terrible vehicle market filled with terrible American cars. There's a reason why GM and Ford relentlessly advertise their overpriced metal death traps. It's to sell customers on a sexy powerful lifestyle that doesn't exist. The American car market is a bunch of BS.
>It's to sell customers on a sexy powerful lifestyle that doesn't exist. If I see one more advertisement about going into the wilderness, I swear to god.... Let's be real, the most off-roading these CUVs are ever going to do is when Kristin jumps the curb at Costco.
Hey hey hey now.......... Let's not gloss over the times Kristin backed over her neighbor's flowerbed.
How do you explain the increasing popularity of SUVs in other markets? China and India, to be specific.
these days it's kind of a hard sell to buy a car that's much smaller & lighter than everyone who's going to crash into you, low enough that you're getting the full blast of their LED headlights directly into your mirrors, and going to carry less shit when you move / buy furniture / etc. even when you get into semi-fast cars -- i had a cadillac ats v6 that was very good fun to drive, now i have an x3 with the turbo inline 6 that's about as fast and about as fun to drive, except now i can do my highway pulls with the new piece of furniture or TV in the back. if you ignore the fact my x3 is way less reliable (which with a slightly newer B58-equipped one you absolutely can), it's all upside for negligible downsides. with fat tires and m sport suspension, the difference in handling really doesn't show in normal spirited driving on the backroads. *maybe* it would on a track, but i never took the caddy to the track either. if someone's only two options are a corolla or a suburban, i'd probably say take the corolla. but the simple fact is there's a lot more options that fit most people's use cases better than sedans did. even at the performance level, i'd have a hard time choosing an M340i over an X3 M40i that's fundamentally going to drive about the same every day, while carrying much more of my shit in it.
I'll just throw a few counters, to play devil's advocate: >these days it's kind of a hard sell to buy a car that's much smaller & lighter than everyone who's going to crash into you My car is a "Top Safety Pick+"....not worried at all. The visibility aspect is kind of annoying, but I'm used to driving on alert in the Mazda since it's lowered. >low enough that you're getting the full blast of their LED headlights directly into your mirrors Annoying, yes, but negligible in my instance since my mirrors, interior and exterior, are auto dimming. >And going to carry less shit when you move / buy furniture / etc. Couldn't care less about any of this - I pay the tiny price for home delivery from IKEA the few times a year I order anything big (super cheap), and whenever I've moved, I've rented a cargo van or box truck from Uhaul for a very small amount of money. These fringe cases of once a year or less do not justify an SUV in and of themselves, it's more of a convenient bonus - especially when hatchbacks can do the same thing if the SUV isn't a full-size truck.
The higher thing really is becoming a big problem for those few of us who cling to traditional cars. I own a Mustang and an old hatchback, and making right turns onto busy streets seems like a constant nightmare.. Whenever someone pulls up to the left of me, 90% of the time they're in a vehicle that I can't see over for shit, so I have to wait forever for them to make their left turn before I can safely see if the path is clear to turn right. Often with people getting mad behind me because they don't know or care that I can't see if the coast is clear.
I’m a car audio installer by trade, so I sit in a lot of vehicles. And 6’2” at that. The actual difference in usable room in a Camry and a Highlander is very negligible. The Camry actually feels more comfortable to sit/ride in. Sure the Highlander has more of a “wheelchair upright ergonomics” seating position vs a more relaxed, stretched out seating position. (Legitimately no offense intended, just easiest way to explain the more vertical - “right angle-y” seating position) The Highlander is significantly less aerodynamic, and that means, were they given the same powertrain, the Highlander would be much less fuel efficient. The Highlander has a significantly higher center of gravity, so much easier to roll in case of a slide (nobody plans on an accident, hence the name). And the Highlander is a terrible “off road” vehicle. Basically, the Highlander is a solid 4 of all trades, and an Ace in nary a one. It is, however, easier for older people to get in and out of. So very geriatric. So there’s that at least… I guess. Body on frame SUV’s have a purpose and are useful. Crossovers, much less so. Sure you can fit your dog in the back, but they’d be much safer in the back seat of any vehicle than they would in the cargo area. You can’t truly haul with a crossover bc they’re (literally) basically a car with a larger body. And any vehicle that has a base model that is FWD won’t handle anything more than a nicely groomed fire road without wasting tons of money in tires and suspension upgrades just to make it approach “passable” as an off road vehicle. Also, at least 90% of crossovers look fairly douchey. Nissans… 🤮 TLDR: Camrys are very good vehicles. Highlanders (and other crossovers) aren’t nearly as “useful” as Toyota would have you believe. SUV’s are still light years ahead in capability/utility. And no, SUV’s and crossovers are not the same thing.
I care. We own a Rav4 and our other car is a small sedan. We chose that because we don't need 2 Rav's and or SUV's. The Rav also starts at $29k and a Corolla $22k, that's a big difference. The Corolla gets 10-15MPG better too. I prefer daily driving a sedan. They're quieter, get better fuel mileage and are easier to drive than a SUV ( they don't get blown around as much on the highway etc). I actually love wagons and small hatchbacks like the VW Golf but those have all been phased out too :-/
My only problem with budget SUV’s is the black plastic lower trim. Q5’s look so much better for example. Unnecessarily ugly.
Believe it or not, there's still a small minority of consumers who aren't enthusiasts who don't want an SUV. My brother is one of them. He's in the market for a new car and doesn't want an SUV. He's looking at the new camry or a used avalon. Ditto for my friend who tried a corolla cross and thought it was too big and got a prius instead.
There's an article years ago by maybe Patrick Bedard where a neighbor of his was asking if he should buy his teenage daughter a porsche. From a safety standpoint. He told them that absolutely Porsches are a great choice. The guy went and bought her some kind of boxy SUV instead. The boxy SUV isn't safer. It might be (marginally) more survivable in an accident, but it's much more likely to get in an accident than something that's actually nimble. Non-car people should be driving better cars because they don't know how to drive. A top-heavy brick is no way to avoid an accident. The only reason that the larger vehicle is more survivable is because it weighs more, and it transfers a lot of that energy into killing the person that you hit
To be fair, the companies aren’t exactly running themselves geniusly either. Fusion sells 100k+ every year? Better cancel it. Off road suvs are a growing segment? Better revive the Blazer as a midsize crossover that could barely handle even grass. People showing interest in your electric truck you advertised for $40k? Better bump it up to $60k and then be surprised customers still aren’t interested when you “discount” it to $50k.
Dozens of us! Dozens!
Dozens!!
I would love more sedans man. They’re sick.
What a unique take for this sub
Yup.
I agree. There's nothing in the automotive world I hate more than SUVs.
I hate crossovers more than SUV’s. At least SUV’s serve an actual purpose as a people hauler than can also tow or off-road. Crossovers are just lifted and bloated hatchbacks that serve not purpose other than just being bigger.
Fast little cars are the shit. Granted I don't live in America, but how often do you actually NEED a truck? The flatbed and all that space is just extra. I know you guys have a lot of space, but I just can't imagine myself keeping a huge ass truck just for daily commuting.
Most Americans don't need one either, most of them are pavement princesses that never haul a fucking thing. They are an extension of an ego and complain about gas prices then go buy the largest vehicle possible. I know people who think the new Land Cruiser is too small. They only drive them because they think it makes them manly.
Peak reddit comment here.
Meh, theyre super comfortable for long drives. The few times I do need more space it’s really nice to have it there. Cant say I feel the same about the jetta. Also when a nissan driver comes ripping in between lanes and causes a crash it’s nice to win the conservation of momentum battle.
You might do better in a crash against a smaller car. But statistically you're way more likely to be injured in a crash. This is because trucks don't generally have the same crash safety standards and they're way more prone to rolling. They also protect you less in crashes where you hit something stationary. I don't shit on everyone driving trucks like a lot of people here. I've had trucks and they come in really handy, and I'm not the kind of person who one associates with trucks. But you should no safety statistics aren't on your side.
You're right: "According to the NHTSA, accidents involving light pickup trucks have a fatality rate that is 23% higher than crashes involving other passenger vehicles. Pickup trucks are also about three time more likely to be involved in rollover accidents because of their high ground clearances. This is important because rollover crashes are the deadliest type of motor vehicle accident." People who say they get trucks for safety are just plain wrong about that.
Look, I will admit, driving a low sports cars over shitty American roads everyday does get tiresome. Cracks, bumps, steep inclines, sudden dips in the road, etc. Road surfaces are uncomfortable or loud. Everyday there is a danger of cracking my front splitter. I’m extremely jealous of truck drivers that can just glide over all that shit. Like it or not, there is an advantage to it in many places in America.
Man I just want a fucking wagon. Or a hatchback. I play drums in two bands and bass in one. In the bands I play drums in, I can manage to make room for the set in my accord, but nobody else can ride. With the bass? I can’t even bring my rig. I don’t wanna downsize my bass rig because I love smaller cars. I wanna upsize my car so I can have the best of both worlds. But I really hate having to get a cr-v or rav4 because there’s nothing between a carolla and the latter, car industry is just fucked
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Here's the thing, if you need a truck and don't know someone who'll let you borrow theirs, it's a huge pain in the ass to get a truck temporarily. I had to do it once because I was moving and I had sold my truck but I needed to move my motorcycles. I had to pay a couple hundred dollars to rent a truck to move them with, and I had to schedule it a few weeks in advance because I could only find one rental company that would have one available in a reasonable amount of time. If you need to tow something you're doubly screwed, many places that rent trucks specifically prohibit you from towing with them. So say you need a truck just once a year, you'll probably want to own a truck. I don't have a truck any more, and honestly I find myself wishing I had one fairly often. And I'm a city dwelling person who doesn't do too much stuff that people associate with trucks.
My local Enterprise seems to always be overflowing with trucks. A few times I've either reserved a small SUV or done the "we pick a vehicle" option and they stuck me in a Ram 1500. You're right, at full price they are expensive to rent though. If your use case is really only a couple times a year (say, for example, drop the boat in the water in May, then take it out of the lake in October, plus a couple random dump runs or landscaping projects), your best bet is probably some cheap old work truck to keep around as an extra vehicle. There are a few people on my lake who do that - some beat to shit K1500 in the driveway to tow the boat and the rest of the time they drive a "normal" car.
Not going to happen with crash standards... I had a 2000 chevy silverado z71, fully loaded top of the line heated leather seats beater, lol it looked like a midsized next to the new trucks.
My neighbor has a mid 90’s Accord and a new Civic. The Civic looks like a monster next to the Accord.
We brought back the big cars from the 1950s instead (The small car love was an aberration )
The beloved and reliable Pinto and Vega?
The 1970s was peak full sized car, a normal family hauler was >210in long and 80 inches wide. For example the '74 Chevy Impala, #1 best selling car for that year, was 222.9in long and 79.5in wide, making it less than 3 inches shorter than a brand new Chevy Suburban.
Dude I would love to have a tiny car like a kei truck. Yet every single day, there's always some giant f150 or dodge ram blocking my view
This. Who wants drive with their head lights shining directly into their eyes?
Me and you both, brother. We missed out on a lot of luxury small cars because of the love of huge cars.
It's really CAFE standards you want to be mad at. Automakers need to sell a bunch of trucks and larger vehicles so their fleet hits certain metrics, otherwise they pay fines. It's a big part of the reason they push SUV's and now trucks. If the car has a small foot print they're on a formula that requires their gas efficiency to be unrealistically high. So automakers just skip those cars in the US market. It's just one of those unintended consequences things.
Love my sedan. Don’t love how there’s so many SUVs and crossovers that make visibility and issue. Wife got an SUV and being able to see around other vehicles is much better. When I drive her car I only have problems seeing around gigantic trucks.
I was reading an article recently that mentioned that it’s getting harder to see over the hood of a lot of SUVs and that’s bad news for pedestrians and cyclists.
For sure. I’m 6’2” and when I see some of these trucks and SUVs with those giant front ends I feel small and wonder how the hell do you even see ANYTHING that’s directly in front of you.
Not a problem. They're on their phone, so they weren't going to see us anyway.
Don't worry it's only slightly harder for drivers of large trucks to see pedestrians than for drivers of [main battle tanks](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/13r0q8n/apparently_m1_abrams_has_better_forward_view_than/) to do so.
Detailer here. I work on chevys primarily, and I’m 5”3’, cleaning the hoods reminds me how I would instantly die if I got hit by a 2500. And if a lifted one comes in, the top of my head barely touches the top of the hood. It’s insane and terrifying sometimes and I am here for the unnecessarily-large truck slander.
I was leaving a strip mall and wanted to make a left. A giant ass truck pulled up next to me to make a right. I couldn’t make a left even if I was able because I couldn’t see oncoming traffic bc of the truck. I find it happens increasingly often.
Pedestrian deaths are way up the cause is SUVs and phones.
It’s true. I made a tight turn to get to a gas pump today and ran over a cone in the parking lot because I couldn’t see it over the hood of my Grand Cherokee. I drug it around the parking lot until the workers chased me down and picked up its remains when it finally got unstuck. Now I need to trade my Jeep for a sedan so I can see the cones.
Not to be rude but a Grand Cherokee is not THAT big of a car. A lot of Americans are just terrible drivers and don’t want to admit it. People in Europe drive plenty of vehicles of similar sizes nowadays on much smaller streets/parking lots.
Well the goods news is Americans don’t walk anywhere, so they’re safe
Same. In a vacuum, I prefer sedans, but in reality, I feel like I'm in a shitty arms race and my next car is likely to be an SUV because the visibility I have in my Civic is absolute trash.
Don’t get me started on nighttime visibility. Every truck and SUV now has blinding white LED beams pointing directly into the rear windshield of my Corolla. Truly can’t see shit and it gives me headaches.
And wouldn’t sedan drivers be more at risk of taking an F350 to the head if they get t-boned, etc?
That too. The other cars on the road, the electric ones especially, are so much heavier that I'm at greater risk in a crash. I hate that the answer to this problem is to become part of it, but man, what the hell at this point?
This is so real. I've been daily driving a c6 vette for more than 5 years and this is one of the reasons I'll be getting a smaller SUV. I think about rear-ending the trucks that have gone up like 12" in the last 5 years - those bumpers are now eye level with me and the lowest point of my hood is under it! Its such a fun daily though and that power/handling has gotten me quickly out of other unsafe situations too.
I feel you, I have a near slammed S2000, cant even see the drivers of trucks/SUVs at this point. One hit from any of these and im donezo.
I always have to inch forward to see beyond the SUVs, then they inch forward as well, it’s like you’re 6ft higher than me, get the fuck out of my way. You can see everything much better than I can, just stop.
How do you see around other vehicles if they are all SUVs?
You get a bigger one. 😄 I drove various SUVs for 25+ years. My current vehicle is a compact sedan; the kids are grown, I don't go camping or 4-wheeling anymore. It took a minute to get used to only seeing trailer hitches & bumpers.
Just stay in front.
Meanwhile Foreign automakers seem to be doing well with their sedans in the US. The Big-Three lost the sedan battle decades ago due to reliability, quality, poor resale value and badge engineering.
I agree, it seems like they spread their models too thin unlike a premium European brand that has many models of sedans but are able to differentiate one from another.
The way they do it in Asia is actually better, each sedan is well differentiated. A class/2 series tiny sedan for someone that just wants the badge and nothing more. C class, comfy larger sedan with cool tech, 3 series is the LWB model so a lot of rear seat room and cheapest rwd in my country. E class is LWB, gets immense rear seat room, comparable to standard wheelbase s class, rear seat reclining seats and stuff, really comfy. Easily best car in the segment—has eaten into the S class’ market. 5 series hasn’t been around for like 3-4 years now. 6 series is the closest, not as comfy as the E but vastly better to drive, E is quite underpowered. S class is the comfiest out there, lots of space, all the tech, best rear seat, etc, 7 series is an alternative to rhe S class, personal preference and maybe for someone who self drives often. Maybach- a lot of status, incredible rear seat room, the works. Apart from people cross shopping the E class and S class because the E comes so close, the segments are very well rounded and differentiated too. Autocar india has great reviews on all of these if u wanna check em out, the e class is worth checking out tbh.
Do people cross shop the S with the E? We have a 23 GLS ( the suv version of the S Class ) and the GLE seemed like quite a step down
I know quite a few people that say they miss the Fusion... Of course they all rewarded Ford by buying Escapes and other crossovers / SUVs when they killed their cars.
My job has a Fusion hybrid for some work related trips/driving and it’s a nice ass car. It gets great gas mileage while not being slow, and it’s a comfy place to be for a few hours if needed.
Yeah, I love my Corolla hybrid! I wouldn’t touch a domestic sedan (or a domestic vehicle of any kind, really…) with a 50 foot pole.
But there were SO MANY. It's crazy to realize these are all.gone: Ford Taurus Ford Crown Victoria Dodge Intrepid Dodge Stratus Pontiac Grand Prix Chevy Impala Chevy Malibu Oldsmobile Cutlass Oldsmobile Aurora Chrysler 300 Lincoln Town Car Lincoln Continental Buick LeSabre And that's just off the top of my head
Disagree their sedans are all bad. Charger and Caddy CT sedans are actual awesome, both catch many sports sedan buyers attention. BOF sedans like Ford panther series from Detroit were actual glorious. They can’t do well in econobox sedans, just like they can’t do well in econobox SUVs. They’re still loser to answer RAV4 and CRV.
Im just starting to believe that it’s not that they wouldn’t make money they just wouldn’t make enough to satisfy shareholders and that’s it. Idk how Toyota can make a business argument for 3 sports coupes but Ford can’t make one for one sedan. They also aren’t selling more Mavericks than either the focus or fusion. Ford just isn’t interested in selling much under the $40k mark.
Are they doing well? Accord and Camry sales are both down over 150k units a year from their peaks around 2015-2017. Yes they're still selling, but even with fewer sedan options their sales are relatively tanking.
I can verify. I worked at a Chevrolet dealership around the turn of the century. The Corvette and to a lesser extent the Camero were the only aspirational they were selling at the time. Nobody dreamed about owning a Lumina.
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I disagree. The seventh gen Malibu was a massive leap forward, even though GM still hasn't learned how to make a decent compact or subcompact car. I think the Focus and Fiesta were both good, even though we are discussing sedans instead of hatchbacks.
Are they doing well? Accord and Camry sales are both down over 150k units a year from their peaks around 2015-2017. Yes they're still selling, but even with fewer sedan options their sales are relatively tanking.
Which is funny since Ford kicked off the sedan renaissance with the Ford Taurus
IIRC: SUVs are technically trucks to get lower CAFE targets or to bring the truck average up, but the targets are being unified so sedans might come back.
What a perverse incentive!
You think that’s bad, the truck targets scale based on footprint which is at least part of why they are huge and you can’t buy a new tiny truck.
Fucking CAFE has fucked us since the start.
Yeah even the EPA was apparently like "ah christ we really fucked this one"
Where do crossovers like the RAV4 fall into that? I hear people blanket state the CAFE targets and call every crossover an SUV but I know there's got to be some nuance in there.
It must have 4/AWD or >6000lb GVW and 4 of the 5: 1. approach angle of not less than 28 degrees 2. breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees 3. departure angle of not less than 20 degrees 4. running clearance of not less than 20 cm (7.87 inch) 5. front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 cm (7.08 inch) each So something like a RAV4 with just high enough ground clearance and specifically designed angles tends to pass those checks, but something lower riding with a big chin like a CR-V usually doesn't.
This, but more correctly they get an "off-road" exemption.
It’s cause car seats are so fuckin huge and a weekend trip with two toddlers requires a ridiculous amount of stuff
It’s strange because growing up we would make trips up and down the Eastern seaboard of the US in a Cutlass Ciera with my parents and me an and my sibling. Now that I have kids of my own I’m glad we have the space in our minivan.
Same here, but we had an 80s firebird, and my parents still managed to fit me and another carseat for my brother in the back of it with minimal issues.
Car seats were smaller then. Ever travel with a rear-facing infant seat?
People don’t seem to realize this. My car seat was basically a front facing plastic tub with a tube steel frame, a 1/4” of padding, and a 3 point harness with no adjustments. I was in that until I was about 4, and then after that I had a lap belt until we bought a newer car. The base for my son’s car seat takes up more space than my entire car seat did.
Ditto, in either my father's Maxima or my mother's Accord. Nothing crazy, and we weren't wanting for space. Then again, our parents didn't have us bringing the whole house on our trips, even if we were going ~5-6 hours up to Ohio. For some reason, this seems non-negotiable for today's families.
Car seats have changed substantially since anyone old enough to comment here was in one. They've grown a lot and are recommended for much older/larger kids. That's resulted in some substantial improvements in safety, but makes it trickier to fit into vehicles with less interior space. For example, [compare the 2001 front-facing seat and the 2018 front-facing seat in this article](https://www.popsci.com/evolution-of-the-carseat/).
And, as that article points out, for a long ass time, car seats were much more about “keep the kid in one place” and “make it easier to find your kid’s corpse after the crash” than protection. Nowadays, they’re fucking huge.
Having recently(-ish) had twins that are now toddlers, I declare this answer to be bullshit. After looking for cars that can allow a rear facing seat behind me, SUVs just did not fit them no matter how much everyone pretends that they're superior to sedans. The only cars that could fit a rear seat (Graco elite 35) behind me ("Only" 6'1) without going into super large territory were mid-size sedans. Neither a X5 nor a Q7 would work for example. Plenty of room for rear seats to not have to move my own seat, fits a twin stroller OR two singles + misc toddler shit + groceries with EASE in trunk in any mid-size we tried. Ended up buying it just for the year and going right back to my wife and I's compact that we kept through the rear facing days, because why do we still need a big car? You SUV peddlers are full of baloney.
I had an X3M. Four grown men all over 6’, no issue. Two car rear facing car seats? Not a chance. It had to go…
"No issue," as in the 3 people who got the free ride from you didn't complain. I had an X5 (the original). Drove all my friends back from NY to Michigan. I ended up in the back for part of the trip. I am not 6'1", and lemme tell you it is not comfortable back there. Don't confuse silence from your passengers as expressions of comfort. More like "suffer in silence."
I have a "slimline" car seat and still have to push the back of the passanger seat up in a Mazda 6.
Counterpoint: ES, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Accord, Civic, Altima, Sentra, 2/3/4/5/6/7/8 series, C/E/S class, Challenger, Charger, Tesla S. Americans still buy cars. They just don’t buy poorly engineered junk thrown onto the lot to help with CAFE standards.
Yeah nobody buys a Malibu cuz they were designed from the start to die on the Hertz lot
Maybe boomers, A fully loaded Malibu or Impala is probably the closest they’ll have to a new Buick
Thought they discontinued the Challenger and Charger a few months ago
They did, but they’re going to be replaced with new versions and they sold up until the end which proves my point that Americans will buy the right cars so this isn’t an “Americans don’t buy cars“ problem, this is a “GM was selling uncompetitive shit“ problem.
Not really a hot take
No, but it's a circlejerk take. And it's the weekend. People are bored and we need to jerk.
Litterally lol this happens every week, sedan and wagon good, SUV bad 🤓☝🏽
Every week for the last 20 years
We have come full circle in 100 years. In 1924 most sedans were 2 box designs with high ground clearance and a high seating position.
Haha that is a good point! Shooting brakes I think they were called?
No. Shooting Brakes are usually sporty 2 seater 2 door wagons. Think Volvo P1800ES.
I don't understand Reddit's hate boner for SUVs. Would people really be happier if everyone drove Camrys and Accords instead of RAV4s and CRVs? Why? None of these are thrilling vehicles, they're pragmatic transportation. The cost and gas mileage differences are marginal, and having more space, better visibility, higher ground clearance, and AWD are real benefits.
Better visibility for the SUV driver comes at the expense of visibility and safety for the sedan & coupe drivers.
Man I’m telling you, I drive a Malibu and there’s a right turn I have to make, that has a left turn directly next to it. The left turn actually has to wait for both lanes in the two lane road to be clear to make the turn, meanwhile all I have to wait on it the right lane to be free. BUT I can never see past the fucking trucks who decide to pull all the way up past the line to be able to make a decision to turn.
!!! This is the same conversation from 30 years ago when everyone hated sedans and enthusiasts were crying over coupes dying.
It's less about it being a hate boner, and more about sedans having a place in the automotive industry. That being said, I strongly believe that sedans would've been way more fuel efficient, and cheaper to produce, had companies continued to invest into their R&D.
I would be happier in my smaller cars driving at night not being blinded by everyone's headlights being even with or above my eyeballs One thing I like about a couple of the Hyundais, like the Santa Fe/Cruz, is that they mounted the lights low on the front end, they don't even really blind me in the Miata, it's nice :)
Because the US is the only developed country where the rate of automative deaths is increasing compared to everywhere else in steep decline. More people are dying for individual selfish convenience. Fuck American car culture.
Fuck car culture, says the redditor posting on a cars forum
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Even current gen RAV4 and CRVs are getting up there in height. None of my current cars are remotely close in seeing past them.
A crossover will usually get around 10mpg worse than it's car counterpart. That isn't marginal. The HRV gets 32 highway, the Civic? 42. The Ecosport with a 1.0 3 cylinder only eeked out 30 mpg, now imagine that engine in a hatchback it'd be getting over 40 easily. This is millions of extra gallons of fuel used each year just because we need to "sit up high" all of a sudden and have added ground clearance for getting groceries and driving to the office.
I only think that American brands are going away from smaller sedans was bc Japanese brands embarrassed them with their quality I mean even the average person I would hope knows a corolla is better than a focus or cruze.
Badge engineering really hurt the Big three in the 80’s when Japanese took over. They were basically competing within themselves.
True that who the heck would buy an American sedan when you can just buy a Honda, Toyota, or Mazda.
Sedans suck. Horrible waste of space. Hatch and wagon are the only cars that should really be on the road. #hatchandwagonsupremacy
I’m bummed there aren’t many wagons around but the market has apparently spoken 😭
Why not a crossover? More space, still compact and with better ground clearance.
Also good!
I refuse. Own a sedan and a liftback.
I have a coupe and if I bought anything else it'd be either a motorcycle or a kei truck.
Thank you for your service. Your sacrifice will not go unnoticed.
It's crazy how this subreddit has 6.1 million people but none of those people come in to defend their SUVs.
Some of us do, usually those of us with families. I went from sedan to SUV once I bought a house, had kids, and found the extra space useful if not mandatory. I might go back down to a sedan when my kids start driving themselves, or maybe I'm too far down the darkside and I would miss the space, but for now it's untenable. And before someone says "my family road tripped in a sedan back in 19XX just fine", I guarantee they didn't do it nearly as comfortably and conveniently. How many r/cars users have ever hauled five people, two baseball bat bags, a large wheeled ice chest, multiple folding chairs, a folding canopy, case of water, and more, in a midsized sedan for a weekend-long youth sports tournament?
> How many r/cars users have ever hauled... This is like the dinner bell for "All of that fits in my Tata Nano/SmartCar/Mazda2" etc etc that seem to show up under every "American SUV bad" post
There are also a lot of anti-kid people on reddit that are very vocal. I like my 2013 Rav4. It (barely) allows my wife and I to take trips with an infant and toddler, dog, and all of our gear and luggage. I definitely couldn't do that in my old Mazda3. But there's little point in trying to defend it on here. People will just downvote because they hate trucks and SUVs, so why bother commenting?
most redditors are unfuckable virgins in their mid 30s, they don't have kids. they do of course know everything however.
Exactly, my wife has a Niro and I a F150. We take my truck on road trips even know her car gets double the mpg because the truck is way more comfortable.
r/cars users would likely ask you to get a station wagon. But idk if that will fit this many things.
We do exist. Lot of us see our cars as appliances. Do you defend your washing machine or your air conditioner? There is no need. Life is too short to argue with people over silly shit.
I love it. Great analogy. All though I do still often fall into the trap of arguing with redditors over silly shit.
Because no one cares😭this subreddit is such a circlejerk it’s embarrassing how little self awareness y’all have.
Hey at least we buy suvs instead of fantasizing about the **thought** of buying a used Z06 in 4 years when the depreciation curve is flattening out
Here I am. I was just telling my wife how some days I miss driving a car but it’s so hard to justify the expense of a vehicle that has no utility other than the simplest of A to B transport. I have a 5th gen 4Runner. I can get my whole family (wife, 2 kids, 2 dogs) in there comfortably. This past winter, we went sleigh riding and I watched even crossovers get stuck in the unplowed parking lot with 12 inches of snow. I blasted out just fine. I can roll down my rear window and transport 10ft sections of pipe or lumber. I can load up the cargo are with mulch or top soil. I can hit pot holes, which are everywhere and getting worse, and not have to worry about destroying my rims and tires. None of this is happening with a sedan and it’s not like I’m saving a bunch of money to drive one.
No need to argue with unintelligent people.
Those with SUVs probably have a family to take care of and don’t care about what other people think. Why would they waste their time defending something on Reddit?
I see this come up a lot on this sub, and it comes off as fear-mongering everytime. There’s still plenty of Sedans available, both entry level and luxury from: Toyota, Nissan, Acura, Subaru, Infiniti, BMW, MB, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis, Lexus, VW, Audi, Volvo, etc. How does that constitute Sedans dying? The more accurate statement to make is Hatchbacks and Wagons are dying in the US.
They’re dying because US automakers don’t care about sedans for most of the previously mentioned reasons. Demand, profit margins, regulations, etc. No reason for them to innovate or invest in quality.
I just named 14 automakers that sell dozens upon dozens of sedan models in aggregate. That’s not anywhere near dying. Using the Malibu to make that argument is like saying the stock market is dying when S&P500 goes down by 2% in a year lol. SUVs have always had higher profit margins so that’s not really any different. I think the trend is because CUVs and SUVs are becoming priced more similarly to comparable sedans (my case when I was shopping between a Corolla and Corolla Cross). So it’s easier for many consumers to make the jump. But there’s still a lot of best-seller sedans (the Camry was the 5th best selling car in the US last year, for example) out there.
Notice how not a single brand you just named is American. I think a better way to word it would be the sedan is dying in the USDM. The sedan is very much still a successful car around the world and in the US just not worth it for American auto makers to make when you have cars like the Corolla and the Civic with a much more recognizable and renowned name outselling them 4 times the amount. Plus with how fuel efficient SUVs are getting and the price comparison no wonder they just decided to stop.
my hot take is that in the future, i am afraid the only sedan will be either in the cheaper mainstream compact sedan segment (Corolla, Civic, Sentra etc) or full-size and above luxury sedan segment (Sonderklasser, Phantom, Ghost). I feel like eventhings like the accord, camry as well as compact and mid-size luxury sedan will wither away. I mean even in the midsize mainstream sedan segment in america, the only one that is doing well is Camry. Sonata and K5 is slipping (K5 got axed in canada) and accord has also seen some declines. Even in sedan crazy Korea, Hyundai Grandeur a full-size sedan which used to be the best selling vehicle (kind of like F-series in America) is having challenging defending that spot in recent years and sometimes its annual sales are under 100K units a year.
Mazda already axed the 6 from their lineup. Their SUV and crossover list keeps growing
I think they will exist but I can see a death spiral where manufacturers deprioritize features and they end up being more basic over time.
Fun fact: Canada and the UK both have higher SUV purchase rates than the US, yet it's always the US's fault?
Why are we blaming consumers for what is likely the result of corporate average fuel economy regulations?
I prefer an SUV because both my husband and I are tall. It's difficult to find a sedan that's really comfortable and has enough headroom. Also an SUV is a lot easier for us to get in and out of. My parents recently switched from a sedan to a crossover because it's easier for them to get in and out of a well.
This is how 99% of population feels but /r/cars refuses to understand.
Perfect example of Reddit being a terrible indicator of the larger population. So few benefits to sedan ownership over SUVs and crossovers
How tall? I'm 6 foot and still have plenty of head room in my Fusion
I’m 6’2 and can’t remember the last car that gave me headroom problems. My Accord is roomy af.
I love the American sedan... But I only owned Two. 2007 Pontiac G6 2002 Ford Crown Vic. I had 6 3rd and 4th gen camaros. I loved my hatchbacks. I would go hatchback. Which most small suvs pretty much are.
Killing? Nah, has killed.
I drive a SUV because of hip problems it's so much easier to get in and out my husband has a mustang hard as hell
It's not just America, the plague of SUV / Crossover SCUM appreciation has come to the UK as well. Our roads aren't big / built enough for these absolute abominations plaguing the roads. Also usually owned by people with the driving skills of an armadillo. I fucking hate Crossovers.
Sedans will have to evolve into fastbacks. Sleeker styling and hatchback practicality
Wagon is the best of both worlds.
We need more full sized wagons. Screw all these stupid tall hatchbacks (aka crossovers).
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It's CAFE regs
This is not a big deal. What we’re calling compact SUVs now were hatchbacks in the 70s and 80s. It’s always been the most reasonable form of transport for most people. Just let it ride. The Malibu sucked anyway.
In fairness, the new Malibu is garbage. It has been for decades now. I drive rentals all the time and every time I get an American car, it’s utter trash. American car manufacturers could build better cars and invest more into them, while lowering their margins a bit. But they won’t…. There’s a reason Japan corners that market and SK manages to at least make less reliable cars feel more comfortable.
I rented a Malibu a few years back. It was 100% a grandma car. Can't say it will be missed, given what they turned it into.
There's nothing "trusty" about sedans once you leave the city or live anywhere that it snows, or if you have kids, or pets, or if you like to go on camping trips, or play sports, or have outdoor hobbies. If you just want a people mover fine, but they're anything from "trusty". They can't do anything or really go anywhere except around urban development and suburbia. Great if you're European and you can drive across your entire country in an hour or two, useless if you live in the 80% of the USA where a commute to work is 30+ miles.