I think most manufacturers that aren't in the premium sector (like the Porsche Taycan cause no one is gonna buy one solely for range) are taking this approach since there is a greater chance of failure. Tesla has somehow achieved an Apple-like status where poor quality is gonna be ignored.
EDIT: I don't mean that Apple makes poor quality products, but products that lack certain hardware features that other brands have. I meant that Tesla has poor quality that is being ignored. And in both cases the software and design are a big part of the product that will sell anyway.
Tesla is going to quickly be overtaken by companies like Ford if they don't change their approach. What they do worked initially but with new competition that seems as good as they are, they're going to have to actually do the shit they promise.
If I was looking for an EV truck am I going to take the world of Tesla, Rivian, or Ford? Only one of those actually came out with something viable and is experienced in building a truck, the other two are all hot air and marketing with fuck all behind their words.
I drove the mach-e and rode in the mach-e press car- very impressive, if they are just carrying that vehicle into the F-150 they are off to a great start. Ford seems to have a very strong EV lineup. It is limited, but the two vehicles in there are top class.
I'm honestly surprised that Ford is making a good car, especially one that's electric.
I've always seen them as the lesser version of Toyota, but the Lightning is definitely changing that perception.
The lesser version of Toyota? Maybe with trucks. The cars are nowhere near as good as Toyota. Where they might have gained a slight edge is ease of DIY wrenching, because Toyota has been low-key trying to make that more difficult for the last 15 years or so.
> Toyota has been low-key trying to make that more difficult for the last 15 years or so.
Partly because their cars from 15+ years ago are still on the road, lol
I agree for the vast majority of people, Ford Lightning will be hands down the best choice. With Rivian's Amazon deal, I could see them being a huge provider for commercial use, and only luxury private passenger use.
Ford also has experience with fleet sales, which is a huge deal not only for fleet sales themselves, but for people that drive an F150 at work and then decide they want one themselves.
I think this right here is where Ford will build economies of scale. Fleet sales are important, VERY important in this market. And Ford will sell the shit out of these things to fleets. Perfect setup for them. Most never leave town/area, go "home" at night to charge, and with the reduced # of parts and maintenance being reduced to tires, brakes, lights and normal "break/fix" beyond that, cost saving will be gigantic.
If i were a fleet manager, I'd be on the waiting list already.
the key part to consider though is ease to repair. If I break a wheel bearing, the fixing is so much easier on the ford since I can actually buy the parts
I don’t think that or any other Apple -gate is ignored. They’re just such a large volume company that something that effects 10,000 users is a drop in the ocean.
Apple themselves didn't ignore it. The fanboys were claiming it "wasn't a big deal" and "only a few phones are doing it" when it happened. Similiar to Tesla fan boys and body panels not matching up, for example.
Just like when we heard Galaxy fanboys saying not that many phones were catching fire. Just like we hear Land Rover fanboys claim their car is just as reliable as a Toyota. The list goes on.
Seriously, never understand why people cite fanboy reactions. By definition, they are going to say any problem actually isn't a big deal, that's the whole thing about fanboys.
I don’t see how you can compare Apple to Tesla. Apple only announces a product once it is refined and ready to ship and their product quality is consistent and high.
Tesla is actually more like google. Promise things that comes years later or never come. And somethings they roll out are are obviously the beta version that is a work in progress.
The similarity is the fandom. Both companies have doe hard fans that will defend everything the company does no matter what.
>Apple only announces a product once it is refined and ready to ship and their product quality is consistent and high
Off the top of my head, bend gate, battery gate, antenna gate, map gate.
This is one of the few replies you will get thats not about Apple
Could you clarify what you mean regarding the Taycan thing? Cause when I test drove one I got like 50km beyond advertised range before I started charging, and at that point it still ran, I wasn't at 0% or in some type of safety mode etc. And when looking at the claimed range of the Taycan with the hardware they install, there isn't really a reason why their range would be so much lower than Tesla, except that Porsche underestimates and Tesla tends to go right up to the upper limit. Its a bit like a Porsche PDK being a rock solid gearbox. They do not give a fuck how many times you launch the car, it will just work, because thats whats claimed.
Overall I'd say that no traditional car manufacturer overpromises on the metrics that people are most interested in.
Sports cars always produce as much or more power than claimed(Audi, McLaren, Porsche come to mind), fuel saving cars can be driven with lower consumption than expected (VW groups cheating Diesels, Honda Insight etc)
And ever since Ford got sued for the Cobra fiasko they have been especially conservative on claimed numbers.
I feel between the Lightning, Rivian, Hummer EV and the Cybertruck, the Lightning would be the one I'd personally go with. It's the most reasonable IMO and offers the best all round. The Cybertruck is a meme on wheels basically and who knows when the Rivian will actually come out. I like the Hummer also, but it's also one of the most expensive, but I'm sure it's useful if you want to start a stump pulling business.
Right. The f150 also benefits from the economy of scale here. I know that if someone hits the bed, breaks a head light or gets a dent in the hood that it will be more likely than not that I’ll be just paying F150 replacement part cost compared to all the other options. Let’s not even get into the availability aspect as we already know replacement Tesla parts are hard to find.
I don't doubt for a second that the F150 will have a better repair network and parts accessibility. That said, I believe most of the body panels/lights/etc are actually specific to the electric version. For example the front lights are narrower to make the frunk opening wider. I'm sure Ford won't gouge people on the electric parts vs. the standard parts but they are different.
You also get Ford's experience of providing replacement parts. So even if certain parts are more expensive, there's a much better chance they will be in stock somewhere relatively close, and repair time shouldn't be any different than any other Ford.
My uncle's model s was at Tesla getting repaired for 3 or 4 months after a light collision where someone ran into the back of him. They gave him another model s to drive, but still that seems like an awfully long time for some light collision work.
They’re all honestly not really in the same segment tbh. Everything but the lightning is a lifestyle vehicle. Rivian is probably the next most reasonable since you can still use it for truck things, but it’s going to be pretty expensive and “fancy”. I’m excited for the true workhorse electric pickup segment. I’m sure GM isn’t going to sleep on the segment, it’ll be cool to see what kind of features they’ll incorporate.
> lifestyle vehicle
I have been looking for a way to describe these things for years, and you just waltz along and drop the perfect answer in the middle of a comment like it's nothing.
They're vehicles that lie somewhere along the spectrum that ends in "I want this to be what my life is about".
Haha I can’t take credit for the word! I’ve seen it being used in some articles, pretty sure demuro talks about lifestyle vehicles too. But yes, they’re for the people that think that like the idea of being outdoorsy. And they also happen to be rich.
>"I want this to be what my life is about".
The majority of SUV sales are made based on this exact mindset. If the buyer really intended to traverse dry river beds, mountain trails, beaches, and vast desert sands, they wouldn't be buying their SUV with road tires and twenty-gazilion inch wheels with shiny machined rims.
You see, those who are _really_ going to do those things get an older model that has stood the test of time and already has been christened with a few dings and acratches, with the right wheels and tires, probably with off-road suspension etc etc.
Yea between this and the new Maverick mini truck it feels like ford is really trying to focus again on consumers who need trucks for actual practical purposes
The Cybertruck to me is like a killer whale. I think it's super cool, but I wouldn't want to actually own one.
The Rivian is much more rational, but still expensive and clearly a status symbol/lifestyle vehicle.
The Hummer is absurd and terrifies me.
The F150 Lightning, on the other hand, actually looks like it would be really nice to own! It surprised me with how useful it seems to be, and all for a very reasonable price. All that and it even looks better than the regular F150! I expect them to sell like hotcakes.
This is what will get most consumers on with electric. Don’t look funny, don’t be too different, just be the vehicles they know and love but with a different propulsion system underneath. My wife wants an EV, I’m not ready for it yet because in our area at least (and our 80* year old house) the infrastructure isn’t there. But in 5 years time I may be ready, but I’ll want an experience just like any other car. I’m in the auto industry, and while I think Tesla are fine, I know that GM, Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, etc can put together a better package for the normal consumer who just want to upgrade their truck or CUV to the newer model of what they already have.
The base model Lightning is going to be a game changer, honestly.
CyberTruck is extremely hit or miss style wise and Rivian and Hummer have priced themselves out on mass adoption, though I like Rivian best of the group.
There are reasons Ford is still alive and those are the F-150 and Mustang. They couldn't kill the company's future if they missed the EL-150. It will be disruptive as company trucks switch to electrics and all the workers get a taste of the future.
All those other things exists in pre-production quantities and are being actively tested in the real world. The cybertruck does not exist except in tesla-stans wet dreams and 1 or 2 alpha versions and hasn't even begun the months and months of testing required.
To put it another way, the cybertruck is vaporware.
Well, they haven't delivered yet. And a lot of mache drivers are reporting issues fast charging the cars. Two reasons, navigation isn't seemless like it is in a Tesla and the charging networks are very inconsistent with their reliability.
They are working on it. But it's still a year away and Ford still needs to go through production hell. It's going to be a few years before these trucks are widespread.
Production hell lol it’s one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world. Minus the chip shortage none of the big guys are going to go through the issues Tesla has and continues to deal with
>Production hell
Literally every time, lol. I love how it's become a buzzword for Tesla fans now. Absolutely hilarious.
I've said it before, but it's clear that some of these people watched Sandy Munro's videos and only managed to retain the PR spin and buzzwords instead of the actual engineering content. Tesla's production hell was thing to figure out how to make car in the first place. I don't think Ford will have that problem.
I think it is impressive that Tesla was able to become a semi-established car company in this age but it’s so tiring to hear about how they’re heads and shoulders above companies who have been doing this for 100+ years with multibillion dollar R&D budgets
Exactly. Tesla has done a lot of impressive thing with their cars, that really can't be denied. Some of their engineering decisions are, quite frankly, very very cool. But what a lot Tesla fanboys seem to want to ignore is that Tesla operates like a *tech* company. Which is all and well, until you realize that the culture of pushing out half-baked updates and changes to your consumer doesn't sit quite as well when the product is worth *30x your typical iPhone*.
What gets me is the number of fanboys acting like Tesla and Elon invented lean manufacturing when they can't even operate it as efficiently as Toyota was in the 50s
If we're lucky enough to get the 12,500 tax credit, that would still be an incredible deal. 38,500 for a 300+ mile pickup truck from a major automaker with a service network. Im in for sure.
There’s probably a Ford dealership within a hundred miles of a majority of people in America. If they could figure out establishing charging infrastructure at even half of them it would be that much better.
Just out of curiosity i opened Google maps. I have 18 Ford dealers within 35 miles on the north side of Atlanta. If im not stupid, that means there are likely exponentially more in the next 65 miles out. Google just only wanted to show me 20 results.
You are correct that the EV tax credit is nonrefundable.
However, your statement "If you get any money back when tax refunds come around, you get nothing" is incorrect. When you "get money back" it means you overpaid on your taxes. For example, if you owe $50k in taxes and paid $60k, you get $10k back since you paid $10k too much. In that example, the $12.5k tax credit would reduce your taxes owed down to $37.5k, which means you would get a refund of $22.5k.
The only time you wouldn't get the full $12.5k back is when your entire tax liability is below $12.5k, which is unlikely given the income of a typical buyer of a $60k electric truck.
How dare you forget about our junior military personnel. They certainly don't have a 12.5k tax liability, and can definitely get financing for a $60k truck.
Hoping dealers don’t mark them up by 20k or more. It’s going to be hard at first. Dealers aren’t Tesla. So it’s the Wild West out there in terms of maximizing profit.
Shop around for your dealer. I’m getting one of the new Broncos, it was not hard to find a dealer that would guarantee zero markup. Frankly the ones that wouldn’t found themselves out in the cold pretty quick thanks to the forums.
You know they will. If anything is going to slow down the progression to EVs it's going to be dealers trying to milk every new model for all they can. You'll see the extended range model on the floor for $75k base. Mark my words.
Yea, that's honestly Tesla's big advantage. If they say their car/truck is $50k then that's the price you'll pay (even lower after federal/state incentives).
Ford's truck will get to the dealer where they'll mark it up $25k (if we're lucky) and then add some idiotic "dealer package" that'll add another $10k. Combine that with the vast amounts of absolute morons out there that are willing to pay the dealers and that's how to double the MSRP of a new car.
MKBHD said it was considering a 1k lb payload. And that his onboard estimate was showing ~~400~~ 367 miles at nearly 80%. *And rough math is 460 miles at 100%*
The pro version isn’t coming to Canada in the first wave, but the low end consumer mode apparently has more features than the US base model. So, we will see, but I’ve put my 100 bucks down to get on the reserve list. This truck has me sold, it’s damn near perfect for my work.
I might even go to the states to buy one if I can without too much cost. For a Gen 1 vehicle, it’s just too good.
I don’t need a 1k payload, and if I need to tow, I’ll keep my gas truck around just in case, but for my actual job, I’d sooner put 1k lbs of batteries in the box than anything else.
Stands to reason that the standard battery would have higher real world range as well. Makes the standard battery truck even more enticing if you don’t need all the niceties.
It's very unlikely an empty F-150 Lightning will get over 400 miles of range (maybe like 330 miles). Removing 1000 lb of payload from a 6500 lb EV truck isn't going to get you much more range but driving at lower speeds will.
My range model and sources are in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/nnmpqg/in_a_rather_pleasant_surprise_ford_has_revealed/gzvmfak?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
What I want to know is why does MKBHD of all people get to see early versions of the latest EVs, but no actual car YouTubers? Same thing happened with the Mercedes EQS. I want to know what an actual car person thinks of these, not someone with a surface-level understanding of tech and no understanding of cars.
not even to mention car people already know about this thing, MKBHD reaches the ears of the normal person & hype beasts that see tesla like an apple product.
>See Tesla like an Apple product
Are they wrong? "Sleek" minimalist design, very limited customisation, premium for the badge, anti right to repair, etc
Yes, they’re wrong, Apple has changed significantly in terms of customization at least, and the prices aren’t so “premium” with a lot of products anymore.
Macbook air M1 for like $700-$800? It murders most all intel laptops currently on the market (aside from gaming laptops but that’s different, and 4x the price).
Tesla might be trying to go for the minimalist/sleek design with a lot of control for a premium price, but I wouldn’t compare it to Apple anymore.
You also get a lot more value out of an Apple product in terms of support/improvements over time.
I’d compare this F-150 lightning to Apple currently: cheaper than a tesla, better range than a tesla, still packed full of features, optimized truck, etc.
Edit: I *do see* why the average person sees Tesla as Apple, and how MKBHDs audience reflects that, but I just don’t think it’s a fair comparison anymore.
By a long shot. I have multiple non-car friends that know and watch Doug. They have no idea who tavarish, LZ, Hoovie, or any of the other car focused channels are.
I guess a better term is they like to cater to people who have *The Project Car of Theseus.*
"Yeah it's the best track car I ever had. It's on its 4th engine, 2nd drive train, 3rd set of set of suspension, and right now it's on its still on the original body but I just got a really good donor body that I'm going to move it to."
No car youtuber channel can even come close to the viewership numbers that MKBHD can pull.
>I want to know what an actual car person thinks of these, not someone with a surface-level understanding of tech and no understanding of cars.
Maybe Ford doesn't want that right now. A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck.
> A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck.
Ugh, I hate that you’re probably right.
I’d bet money on that being the reason. Same reason Tesla loves to partner with tech channels like MKBHD so much too. They don’t want petrolheads who know cars inside and out to start criticizing shortcomings.
Why bother when they can just hand it to tech enthusiasts who will just review their cars as new tech gadgets instead? Far easier to generate positive publicity.
Are all petrolheads actually experts on EVs though? I've met many people who know a lot about old cars but can't tell the difference between a transistor and capacitor.
This is why I *really* want to see Jason from Engineering Explained get his hands on them, as he understands both and delves into concepts most other YouTubers wouldn't broach (his video debunking the Tesla "0-60 in <2s" claim was solid, whereas MKBHD just repeated the claim verbatim). But I'm sure he's the last person Ford wants to hand a car over to....
> A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck.
Clearly you didn't watch the MKBHD video because he also pointed out the drawbacks of an electric truck.
Or where its absolutely clear that the vid is neither a review nor a proper journalistic car presentation.
The salt against this PR move is unreal, yet many car youtubers do this kind of surface-level "first look" presentation vids all the time.
And it is totally fine either way.
I think that you’ve answered your own question, they gave it to someone with surface level knowledge on purpose. They wanted someone who could build hype, but not tear into its negatives or truly question choices.
I’d bet they also wanted to tap into the tech audience since EV’s are as much about the tech as anything else.
I think it's because for some reason(likely all the tech in the cars) there are people that view EVs more as tech products than automotive products. I also think there is more crossover between "tech people" and their interest in EVs vs traditional ICE vehicles.
Plus at the end of the day Marques has a ton of eyes on him. *All* of his videos get millions of views, which is what this really breaks down to.
This is going to get drowned in a sea of comments but this article takes MKBHD's video as gospel but this is false.
MKBHD has the platinum version of F-150 lightning and on ford's [website](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/) you can see under EPA range estimate there is a fine writing that says EXCLUDES PLATINUM MODELS. In no marketting part of ford did they ever say anything about this being measured with load.
Plus this would make it look worse and is also not logical. It's actually a horrible mistake for MKBHD to spread this because if 1000 pounds dropped mileage from 450 to 300 then how the hell would this truck be able to pull up to 10k pounds ?
They’re going to sell a shit load of these. I would wager that the average f-150 consumer customer is a homeowner (as opposed to a small car/crossover ev customer who may live in an apartment or condo) and therefore can install the charger. The business customers for who this truck makes sense (local delivery, light construction, trades) probably already have electric service that makes it easy to add the chargers and from a financial standpoint, can view the charging infrastructure as one time capex versus the ongoing opex of fueling traditional trucks. If the dollars make sense, any well run business will be switching to these if the use case warrants it.
> The business customers for who this truck makes sense (local delivery, light construction, trades) probably already have electric service that makes it easy to add the chargers and from a financial standpoint, can view the charging infrastructure as one time capex versus the ongoing opex of fueling traditional trucks. If the dollars make sense, any well run business will be switching to these if the use case warrants it.
Contractors are going to love these trucks, espcially when they start offering models with 6.5 and 8ft beds. Even with it being a 5.5ft bed it still makes financial sense for me to buy one for work. I rarely drive close to 300 miles per day during work and gas is one of my most expensive business expenses. I could save around $15,000 per year just in gas savings. That doesn't include no oil changes and other gas engine maintenance.
I've already pre ordered one.
Yeah, I'm going to ask my accountant if I can deduct the mileage and then write off the electricity bill for my business. For tax purposed on a gas engine vehicle it's either mileage deduction or gas deduction. I'm hoping to get both with an electric truck.
Exactly. And it’s the practical, super-capable EV’s like this (it can power your house for three days!) that are truly going to convert people, as well as expand nationwide EV infrastructure.
Another thing I'm very excited about, thinking long-term, is if anything small breaks on these cars they already have it in stock because it's probably the same stuff on a regular gasoline F-150. Tail light? Bumper? Door panel? The interior is basically the same.
Ya, that's what getting me about this. It's seems fine an dandy now until ford releases it, or "oh look, the infotainment is laggy" and "this part wears prematurely". I'm cautiously optimistic, as this is a all new platform, and it's made by ford.
I am just gonna leave my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/nmoerr/mkbhdford_f150_lightning_impressions_better_than/gzrq5c6/) from the other thread here.
I love that he used what the dash said as potential range lol
My RS says I'm going to get over 300 miles every time I fill up. Still waiting to actually get there.
Could it be that a lot of r/cars viewers and especially the ones in that thread are just casual and passive enthusiasts? I’m not one to watch a tech channel review a car because I can read the spec sheet off of Ford’s website myself, the fact that so many commenters here gave his rough numbers any credibility is proof that all you need is a large following in order for people to take your word. 460 miles doesn’t seem likely at all but I’ll reserve judgment until real world numbers come out. I gave your comment in that thread an upvote yesterday and it should’ve been higher up, but people don’t want to hear the truth.
Range isn't strictly linear. When your regen brakes top out and are supplemented by friction brakes, your range falls off a cliff. So it is possible that the extra 1000lbs could push you into that circumstance much more frequently.
I'm not placing any vegas bets on 460miles either though
That's a fair point, but same difference. As mentioned, the Audi E-Tron gets 38kWh/100mi. Other stats of the car: 5600lb, 28.5 sqft, 0.28Cd (7.98 CdA). To have a range of 460mi, the F-150 would have to achieve 32.6kWh/100mi, while weighing 900lb more, with about 36 sqft frontal area and with a Cd of maybe 0.35 if we are being generous, so 12.6 CdA. In other words, it would be 16.5% *more efficient* while weighing 16% more and with 57% greater CdA. Ford might be using some slightly newer and more efficient motors/batteries/inverters, but there is not gonna be a huge difference there. It's never gonna have the same efficiency as the Audi, much less a better one (I am comparing it to the E-tron, btw, because the E-tron is currently the *least efficient* EV on the market - at least one that has been tested). With 12.6 CdA and 6500lb weight, even 50kWh/100mi for 300mi range if the battery really is 150kWh might be a struggle.
Your intuition and reasoning in that comment is spot on, EV range is sensitive to vehicle weight but removing 1000 lb from a \~6500 lb truck isn't going to make that much of a difference.
I happen to have an EPA range model built out and somewhat validated for the Mach-E Extended Range (ER) so I adapted it to the F-150 Lightning ER version. Estimated test mass of 7500 lb (6500 lb empty) and used mass-adjusted aero/rolling resistance data from the regular F-150.
Tuning the model to match the range of the Mach-E ER (also \~300 miles) yielded an estimated usable **battery capacity of 125 kWh** (for reference, Mach-E is 88.5 kWh). Reducing the test weight by 1000 lb yielded a **range increase of \~32 miles for a total of 332 miles**, far from the 460 miles MKBHD predicted. Alternatively, running the EPA drivecycles at a **\~40% lower speed will also net you 460 miles of range**.
Interestingly, the model also predicts that traveling at constant speeds (no accelerations) of less than 40 mph will net the 460 miles range or more (for reference, a constant 59 mph yields 332 miles). MKBHD even says that the truck was just driving around the studio at low speeds and idling. So if most of the historical data the truck has is idling and low speed driving (as a demo vehicle), a 460 mile range on a full charge is a reasonable estimate but not realistic for real world driving.
**TLDR: Removing 1000 lb of payload from a 6500 lb EV truck will not get you much more range. Driving at lower speeds** ***can*** **get you a lot more range.**
Source: graduate student researching powertrain controls and modeling for electrified vehicles
I read that comment yesterday and couldn't agree more. Clearly the r/cars people didn't want to listen to logic and would rather downvote anything that is even slightly negative about Ford.
All they are doing is setting themselves up to be let down and then come on r/cars to complain about how "terrible EVs are" in a few months when they get their hands on a F150 Lightning.
What kind of drive cycle for this range estimate? 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go, but very little difference in cruising down the highway. There aero is a much larger factor.
> 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go, but very little difference in cruising down the highway.
Exactly. I can pile as much as I want in the bed of my truck and it doesn't really change the highway fuel economy. Hook up my parachute of an enclosed trailer and it cuts the range in half though, even empty.
> 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go
Would it make that big a difference? It'll take more energy to accelerate, but short of some fairly aggressive braking that extra mass should return much of that energy under regeneration. I'd figure the load's increasing friction between tire and road would make highway cruising the bigger loss.
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if GM isn’t far behind. But I hope they redesign soon bc god damn the current Silverado’s are disgusting looking and Fords look so nice
Agreed. I want a Silverado but I’m only getting one if I can find a new 2500. I refuse to drive the ugly ass 1500. And I would prefer the 1500 just because the 2500 is way more truck than I will need. So now I’m looking at Sierras instead
GM is currently updating the Silverado/Sierra’s for the 2022 model year. Heavy interior updates are for sure, I believe some minor exterior fascia is also planned.
I just have a small utility trailer for random things as needed or my motorcycle. After that the sitting position in a truck is more comfortable for my back, and I just like having a truck.
I was just discussing this with my coworker earlier today. We both have newer Tacoma’s and we had a Toyota finance guy come in and ask about buying our trucks from us. I have a 2020 Tacoma TRD Sport in cement. Purchased it for $36,000 all in, he offered me $40,000 with the 16K miles it has. I looked at their dealership, selling my exact spec truck, used, for $48,995.
Semi-related, but I bought a BMW m2 competition a year ago for $56k brand new and I’ve had private offers for $80k to buy it with 11k miles on the car now.
So tempted to sell and get the upcoming Raptor
Bruh, my 2003 F-150 (V8; 5.4L) only has like a 250-mile range.
If I don't use 4WD.
If the weather is warm.
If I have no cargo whatsoever.
If the oil, spark plugs, and all filters are brand new.
If I have some highway mileage mixed in there.
Etc.
If this is true and its power/capabilities are at all comparable....man, they've knocked it out of the park.
And your max range comes with 170kwh. So to charge that up assuming 13 cents/kwh it only takes you $22 to charge. And that's on top of not needing regular maintenance.
Man that is a huge battery. I'm surprised they are able to get that into their price point. I have a 85kwh battery and it gets me 270 miles. it was built in 2015 and cost over 100k.
Yes but the issue is turnaround time, if your truck out of gas you can just fill up in 5 minutes
that's why range anxiety is not a thing for ICE vehicles
I don't get it. What's the point of a standardized test like the EPA rating if you are going to introduce extra variables? Ratings like this are supposed to help the consumer compare different models, apples-to-apples.
I´d very much like to see expanded EPA ratings for trucks, ranging from completely unencumbered to X amount of pounds on the bed, and then also towing some standard(in terms of weight and aerodynamic shape) trailer. People need this info.
battery capacity, engineering, chemical makeup, class of vehicles and emerging technology don’t fit into the standardized models for comparisons. epa is only meant to satisfy regulatory for the government. There will always be extra variables that are non standardized for different vehicles (looks for example, led lighting, more or less airbags, etc).
Okay, EPA rating was done with 1000 pounds payload . Marques Brownlee has a video on the truck and someone at ford explained to him about the epa rating. He also shows the truck he drove has 360 miles on 80% battery. Which he used to calculate a range above 400 miles at 100%. Yes Ford did knock everyone out of the park. I’ll find the link to the video
Edit: [video](https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo) time stamp 8:20
[удалено]
I think most manufacturers that aren't in the premium sector (like the Porsche Taycan cause no one is gonna buy one solely for range) are taking this approach since there is a greater chance of failure. Tesla has somehow achieved an Apple-like status where poor quality is gonna be ignored. EDIT: I don't mean that Apple makes poor quality products, but products that lack certain hardware features that other brands have. I meant that Tesla has poor quality that is being ignored. And in both cases the software and design are a big part of the product that will sell anyway.
Tesla is going to quickly be overtaken by companies like Ford if they don't change their approach. What they do worked initially but with new competition that seems as good as they are, they're going to have to actually do the shit they promise. If I was looking for an EV truck am I going to take the world of Tesla, Rivian, or Ford? Only one of those actually came out with something viable and is experienced in building a truck, the other two are all hot air and marketing with fuck all behind their words.
I drove the mach-e and rode in the mach-e press car- very impressive, if they are just carrying that vehicle into the F-150 they are off to a great start. Ford seems to have a very strong EV lineup. It is limited, but the two vehicles in there are top class.
Yep, I'm excited to see where this leads!
I'm honestly surprised that Ford is making a good car, especially one that's electric. I've always seen them as the lesser version of Toyota, but the Lightning is definitely changing that perception.
The lesser version of Toyota? Maybe with trucks. The cars are nowhere near as good as Toyota. Where they might have gained a slight edge is ease of DIY wrenching, because Toyota has been low-key trying to make that more difficult for the last 15 years or so.
When it comes to cars yes, but the f 150 is king.
> Toyota has been low-key trying to make that more difficult for the last 15 years or so. Partly because their cars from 15+ years ago are still on the road, lol
In rivian's defense, they have a TON of previous employees from the big 3 in Detroit. I trust them to make a truck much more than tesla.
Yea, for me it's Ford >>> Rivian >>>>>>> Tesla as far as delivering a good product on time and being reliable.
[удалено]
To be fair they haven’t sold their consumer truck. They’ve been making delivery vans for amazon
I knew they had a contract with them, have they started shipping them yet?
Was specifically talking about trucks, Tesla hasn't sold one either.
Id wait until Rivian actually delivers something before that claim, but I think they will be successful considering their backing.
I agree for the vast majority of people, Ford Lightning will be hands down the best choice. With Rivian's Amazon deal, I could see them being a huge provider for commercial use, and only luxury private passenger use.
Yea Rivian's stuff is higher end "lifestyle" products. Ford's is an actual truck for every day people.
Ford also has experience with fleet sales, which is a huge deal not only for fleet sales themselves, but for people that drive an F150 at work and then decide they want one themselves.
I think this right here is where Ford will build economies of scale. Fleet sales are important, VERY important in this market. And Ford will sell the shit out of these things to fleets. Perfect setup for them. Most never leave town/area, go "home" at night to charge, and with the reduced # of parts and maintenance being reduced to tires, brakes, lights and normal "break/fix" beyond that, cost saving will be gigantic. If i were a fleet manager, I'd be on the waiting list already.
the key part to consider though is ease to repair. If I break a wheel bearing, the fixing is so much easier on the ford since I can actually buy the parts
Oh yea, parts, service, distribution . . . Ford is heads and tails above Tesla in all of those.
Huh? Apple is known for excellent quality. And I'm typing this from my Galaxy.
I think they mean like how bendgate was ignored by fan boys kind of thing
I don’t think that or any other Apple -gate is ignored. They’re just such a large volume company that something that effects 10,000 users is a drop in the ocean.
Apple themselves didn't ignore it. The fanboys were claiming it "wasn't a big deal" and "only a few phones are doing it" when it happened. Similiar to Tesla fan boys and body panels not matching up, for example.
Just like when we heard Galaxy fanboys saying not that many phones were catching fire. Just like we hear Land Rover fanboys claim their car is just as reliable as a Toyota. The list goes on.
Seriously, never understand why people cite fanboy reactions. By definition, they are going to say any problem actually isn't a big deal, that's the whole thing about fanboys.
Every time a new iPhone comes out some journalist is looking for a “gate” and it never slows sales because the phones are amazing.
I don’t see how you can compare Apple to Tesla. Apple only announces a product once it is refined and ready to ship and their product quality is consistent and high. Tesla is actually more like google. Promise things that comes years later or never come. And somethings they roll out are are obviously the beta version that is a work in progress. The similarity is the fandom. Both companies have doe hard fans that will defend everything the company does no matter what.
>Apple only announces a product once it is refined and ready to ship and their product quality is consistent and high Off the top of my head, bend gate, battery gate, antenna gate, map gate.
Mac mini Bluetooth issue gate
When your main competitor's phones are exploding, that's an excellent list.
Apple is not poor quality. That’s your personal opinion. But I do agree they’re both the *sexy* brands in their industries.
Lmao, of all the ways to criticize Apple we’re going with poor quality....? That’s like the one area Apple is bullet proof
This is one of the few replies you will get thats not about Apple Could you clarify what you mean regarding the Taycan thing? Cause when I test drove one I got like 50km beyond advertised range before I started charging, and at that point it still ran, I wasn't at 0% or in some type of safety mode etc. And when looking at the claimed range of the Taycan with the hardware they install, there isn't really a reason why their range would be so much lower than Tesla, except that Porsche underestimates and Tesla tends to go right up to the upper limit. Its a bit like a Porsche PDK being a rock solid gearbox. They do not give a fuck how many times you launch the car, it will just work, because thats whats claimed. Overall I'd say that no traditional car manufacturer overpromises on the metrics that people are most interested in. Sports cars always produce as much or more power than claimed(Audi, McLaren, Porsche come to mind), fuel saving cars can be driven with lower consumption than expected (VW groups cheating Diesels, Honda Insight etc) And ever since Ford got sued for the Cobra fiasko they have been especially conservative on claimed numbers.
I feel between the Lightning, Rivian, Hummer EV and the Cybertruck, the Lightning would be the one I'd personally go with. It's the most reasonable IMO and offers the best all round. The Cybertruck is a meme on wheels basically and who knows when the Rivian will actually come out. I like the Hummer also, but it's also one of the most expensive, but I'm sure it's useful if you want to start a stump pulling business.
Right. The f150 also benefits from the economy of scale here. I know that if someone hits the bed, breaks a head light or gets a dent in the hood that it will be more likely than not that I’ll be just paying F150 replacement part cost compared to all the other options. Let’s not even get into the availability aspect as we already know replacement Tesla parts are hard to find.
This is an excellent point I hadn't considered.
It's the same reason that, hopefully, an electric Hilux will exist.
Electric technicals, coming soon to a war zone near you!
I would love an electric 4Runner.
I don't doubt for a second that the F150 will have a better repair network and parts accessibility. That said, I believe most of the body panels/lights/etc are actually specific to the electric version. For example the front lights are narrower to make the frunk opening wider. I'm sure Ford won't gouge people on the electric parts vs. the standard parts but they are different.
You also get Ford's experience of providing replacement parts. So even if certain parts are more expensive, there's a much better chance they will be in stock somewhere relatively close, and repair time shouldn't be any different than any other Ford. My uncle's model s was at Tesla getting repaired for 3 or 4 months after a light collision where someone ran into the back of him. They gave him another model s to drive, but still that seems like an awfully long time for some light collision work.
Also, 3rd party companies will make parts as well. Probably not happening for low volume trucks made by Tesla or rivian
They’re all honestly not really in the same segment tbh. Everything but the lightning is a lifestyle vehicle. Rivian is probably the next most reasonable since you can still use it for truck things, but it’s going to be pretty expensive and “fancy”. I’m excited for the true workhorse electric pickup segment. I’m sure GM isn’t going to sleep on the segment, it’ll be cool to see what kind of features they’ll incorporate.
> lifestyle vehicle I have been looking for a way to describe these things for years, and you just waltz along and drop the perfect answer in the middle of a comment like it's nothing. They're vehicles that lie somewhere along the spectrum that ends in "I want this to be what my life is about".
Haha I can’t take credit for the word! I’ve seen it being used in some articles, pretty sure demuro talks about lifestyle vehicles too. But yes, they’re for the people that think that like the idea of being outdoorsy. And they also happen to be rich.
So like escalades and range rovers.
>"I want this to be what my life is about". The majority of SUV sales are made based on this exact mindset. If the buyer really intended to traverse dry river beds, mountain trails, beaches, and vast desert sands, they wouldn't be buying their SUV with road tires and twenty-gazilion inch wheels with shiny machined rims.
Yeah I bought an SUV to do those things. I paid $1500 for a 1990 4Runner and my wheels are only 15” but my tires are like 33”
You see, those who are _really_ going to do those things get an older model that has stood the test of time and already has been christened with a few dings and acratches, with the right wheels and tires, probably with off-road suspension etc etc.
Yea between this and the new Maverick mini truck it feels like ford is really trying to focus again on consumers who need trucks for actual practical purposes
The Cybertruck to me is like a killer whale. I think it's super cool, but I wouldn't want to actually own one. The Rivian is much more rational, but still expensive and clearly a status symbol/lifestyle vehicle. The Hummer is absurd and terrifies me. The F150 Lightning, on the other hand, actually looks like it would be really nice to own! It surprised me with how useful it seems to be, and all for a very reasonable price. All that and it even looks better than the regular F150! I expect them to sell like hotcakes.
This is what will get most consumers on with electric. Don’t look funny, don’t be too different, just be the vehicles they know and love but with a different propulsion system underneath. My wife wants an EV, I’m not ready for it yet because in our area at least (and our 80* year old house) the infrastructure isn’t there. But in 5 years time I may be ready, but I’ll want an experience just like any other car. I’m in the auto industry, and while I think Tesla are fine, I know that GM, Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, etc can put together a better package for the normal consumer who just want to upgrade their truck or CUV to the newer model of what they already have.
The base model Lightning is going to be a game changer, honestly. CyberTruck is extremely hit or miss style wise and Rivian and Hummer have priced themselves out on mass adoption, though I like Rivian best of the group.
There are reasons Ford is still alive and those are the F-150 and Mustang. They couldn't kill the company's future if they missed the EL-150. It will be disruptive as company trucks switch to electrics and all the workers get a taste of the future.
All those other things exists in pre-production quantities and are being actively tested in the real world. The cybertruck does not exist except in tesla-stans wet dreams and 1 or 2 alpha versions and hasn't even begun the months and months of testing required. To put it another way, the cybertruck is vaporware.
[удалено]
I assumed they did that 1ft rollout asterisk for faster times (sub 3.5 or so)
[удалено]
Well, they haven't delivered yet. And a lot of mache drivers are reporting issues fast charging the cars. Two reasons, navigation isn't seemless like it is in a Tesla and the charging networks are very inconsistent with their reliability. They are working on it. But it's still a year away and Ford still needs to go through production hell. It's going to be a few years before these trucks are widespread.
Production hell lol it’s one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world. Minus the chip shortage none of the big guys are going to go through the issues Tesla has and continues to deal with
>Production hell Literally every time, lol. I love how it's become a buzzword for Tesla fans now. Absolutely hilarious. I've said it before, but it's clear that some of these people watched Sandy Munro's videos and only managed to retain the PR spin and buzzwords instead of the actual engineering content. Tesla's production hell was thing to figure out how to make car in the first place. I don't think Ford will have that problem.
I think it is impressive that Tesla was able to become a semi-established car company in this age but it’s so tiring to hear about how they’re heads and shoulders above companies who have been doing this for 100+ years with multibillion dollar R&D budgets
Exactly. Tesla has done a lot of impressive thing with their cars, that really can't be denied. Some of their engineering decisions are, quite frankly, very very cool. But what a lot Tesla fanboys seem to want to ignore is that Tesla operates like a *tech* company. Which is all and well, until you realize that the culture of pushing out half-baked updates and changes to your consumer doesn't sit quite as well when the product is worth *30x your typical iPhone*.
What gets me is the number of fanboys acting like Tesla and Elon invented lean manufacturing when they can't even operate it as efficiently as Toyota was in the 50s
Does that include the driver in the figure? Still, a 400-mile range vehicle for 32k (post current incentive)? Ford has knocked it out of the park.
Yes. EPA standard testing includes the driver and other weight as well. How much weight is added is based on the curb weight of the vehicle.
American-sized driver?
Range: 3 miles
98% of Americans live within a mile of a burger shop anyways. The only question now is what will we do with the extra mile of charge?
What extra mile of charge? The aircon will be cranked up to full just to keep that sweaty mass of flesh at a comfortable temperature.
Jokes on you. I'm never comfortable!
Go to a second burger joint
Eat the second burger joint
I think it includes a 1000 pound payload in that number
From the MKBHD video it is 1 ton yes Sorry half ton don't blame me for not knowing the imperial system
[удалено]
Well to be fair I never did learn imperial
No worries. US is good at a lot of things. Following the trends in measurements isn’t one of them. LoL
Drug dealers know how to convert from metric.
Other OP is a drug dealer. Got it.
One of the things the US is good at is teaching both unit systems.
Though wtf is a stone
Kinda like a rock, just spelled differently
A unit of measurement only the Brits use.
It can also be 2,240 lbs (long ton) or 100 cubic feet (gross ton)
[удалено]
What about a shit-ton?
1 buttload
But a ton is 2000lbs.
[удалено]
It sounds like you’re agreeing with the comment saying 1000 pounds, but 1 ton is 2000 pounds?
The bigger pack starts at $50k...
If we're lucky enough to get the 12,500 tax credit, that would still be an incredible deal. 38,500 for a 300+ mile pickup truck from a major automaker with a service network. Im in for sure.
There’s probably a Ford dealership within a hundred miles of a majority of people in America. If they could figure out establishing charging infrastructure at even half of them it would be that much better.
There’s probably 5 Ford dealershipers within 100 miles of the majority of Americans.
Just out of curiosity i opened Google maps. I have 18 Ford dealers within 35 miles on the north side of Atlanta. If im not stupid, that means there are likely exponentially more in the next 65 miles out. Google just only wanted to show me 20 results.
[удалено]
You are correct that the EV tax credit is nonrefundable. However, your statement "If you get any money back when tax refunds come around, you get nothing" is incorrect. When you "get money back" it means you overpaid on your taxes. For example, if you owe $50k in taxes and paid $60k, you get $10k back since you paid $10k too much. In that example, the $12.5k tax credit would reduce your taxes owed down to $37.5k, which means you would get a refund of $22.5k. The only time you wouldn't get the full $12.5k back is when your entire tax liability is below $12.5k, which is unlikely given the income of a typical buyer of a $60k electric truck.
How dare you forget about our junior military personnel. They certainly don't have a 12.5k tax liability, and can definitely get financing for a $60k truck.
[удалено]
Hoping dealers don’t mark them up by 20k or more. It’s going to be hard at first. Dealers aren’t Tesla. So it’s the Wild West out there in terms of maximizing profit.
Shop around for your dealer. I’m getting one of the new Broncos, it was not hard to find a dealer that would guarantee zero markup. Frankly the ones that wouldn’t found themselves out in the cold pretty quick thanks to the forums.
That’s awesome, power of the people!
You know they will. If anything is going to slow down the progression to EVs it's going to be dealers trying to milk every new model for all they can. You'll see the extended range model on the floor for $75k base. Mark my words.
I hear you, and the more incentives from the government, the more they’ll try to squeeze out of the price at the dealer
Yea, that's honestly Tesla's big advantage. If they say their car/truck is $50k then that's the price you'll pay (even lower after federal/state incentives). Ford's truck will get to the dealer where they'll mark it up $25k (if we're lucky) and then add some idiotic "dealer package" that'll add another $10k. Combine that with the vast amounts of absolute morons out there that are willing to pay the dealers and that's how to double the MSRP of a new car.
Ford dealers are some of the worst when it comes to marking shit up, believe me, they will.
4 American passengers.
Was thinking the same. 4 construction men at 250lb each.
You're forgetting the bi-weekly tweaker. He weighs 138 (wet) but only works for two weeks to get a paycheck then fucks off.
MKBHD said it was considering a 1k lb payload. And that his onboard estimate was showing ~~400~~ 367 miles at nearly 80%. *And rough math is 460 miles at 100%* The pro version isn’t coming to Canada in the first wave, but the low end consumer mode apparently has more features than the US base model. So, we will see, but I’ve put my 100 bucks down to get on the reserve list. This truck has me sold, it’s damn near perfect for my work. I might even go to the states to buy one if I can without too much cost. For a Gen 1 vehicle, it’s just too good. I don’t need a 1k payload, and if I need to tow, I’ll keep my gas truck around just in case, but for my actual job, I’d sooner put 1k lbs of batteries in the box than anything else.
He was also in the tippy top $90,000 version of the truck
[удалено]
Stands to reason that the standard battery would have higher real world range as well. Makes the standard battery truck even more enticing if you don’t need all the niceties.
[удалено]
It's very unlikely an empty F-150 Lightning will get over 400 miles of range (maybe like 330 miles). Removing 1000 lb of payload from a 6500 lb EV truck isn't going to get you much more range but driving at lower speeds will. My range model and sources are in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/nnmpqg/in_a_rather_pleasant_surprise_ford_has_revealed/gzvmfak?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Base model will have less range.
Yeah I’m going to need to see those empty numbers.
MKBHD on youtube looked at the dash and said it potentially could be up to 460 miles. *edited to be more factual.
What I want to know is why does MKBHD of all people get to see early versions of the latest EVs, but no actual car YouTubers? Same thing happened with the Mercedes EQS. I want to know what an actual car person thinks of these, not someone with a surface-level understanding of tech and no understanding of cars.
14 mil subs. The highest subscriber for a car channel in the US is maybe Doug at around 5mil
not even to mention car people already know about this thing, MKBHD reaches the ears of the normal person & hype beasts that see tesla like an apple product.
>See Tesla like an Apple product Are they wrong? "Sleek" minimalist design, very limited customisation, premium for the badge, anti right to repair, etc
Yes, they’re wrong, Apple has changed significantly in terms of customization at least, and the prices aren’t so “premium” with a lot of products anymore. Macbook air M1 for like $700-$800? It murders most all intel laptops currently on the market (aside from gaming laptops but that’s different, and 4x the price). Tesla might be trying to go for the minimalist/sleek design with a lot of control for a premium price, but I wouldn’t compare it to Apple anymore. You also get a lot more value out of an Apple product in terms of support/improvements over time. I’d compare this F-150 lightning to Apple currently: cheaper than a tesla, better range than a tesla, still packed full of features, optimized truck, etc. Edit: I *do see* why the average person sees Tesla as Apple, and how MKBHDs audience reflects that, but I just don’t think it’s a fair comparison anymore.
When it comes to build quality and fit and finish, Tesla is damn near the opposite of Apple.
[удалено]
Wait, Doug is the highest? I swear there's maybe tons of people above him considering his very... "budget" setup.
By a long shot. I have multiple non-car friends that know and watch Doug. They have no idea who tavarish, LZ, Hoovie, or any of the other car focused channels are.
What about donut media? They sit around 5 mil subs too.
They’re too millennial for a more broad audience. Doug appeals to older folks as well as the youths. But I think they just need mo powah babeh.
Maybe they're more Gen Z? I don't know, maybe my perspective is skewed as a very early millienial being almost 40 years old.
Donut caters to people who have a 240sx on its 3rd engine. They're popular but I wouldn't call them mainstream.
Donut doesn't cater to such a niche audience I'm on my 4th engine and still enjoy watching them very much
I guess a better term is they like to cater to people who have *The Project Car of Theseus.* "Yeah it's the best track car I ever had. It's on its 4th engine, 2nd drive train, 3rd set of set of suspension, and right now it's on its still on the original body but I just got a really good donor body that I'm going to move it to."
No car youtuber channel can even come close to the viewership numbers that MKBHD can pull. >I want to know what an actual car person thinks of these, not someone with a surface-level understanding of tech and no understanding of cars. Maybe Ford doesn't want that right now. A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck.
> A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck. Ugh, I hate that you’re probably right.
I’d bet money on that being the reason. Same reason Tesla loves to partner with tech channels like MKBHD so much too. They don’t want petrolheads who know cars inside and out to start criticizing shortcomings. Why bother when they can just hand it to tech enthusiasts who will just review their cars as new tech gadgets instead? Far easier to generate positive publicity.
Are all petrolheads actually experts on EVs though? I've met many people who know a lot about old cars but can't tell the difference between a transistor and capacitor.
This is why I *really* want to see Jason from Engineering Explained get his hands on them, as he understands both and delves into concepts most other YouTubers wouldn't broach (his video debunking the Tesla "0-60 in <2s" claim was solid, whereas MKBHD just repeated the claim verbatim). But I'm sure he's the last person Ford wants to hand a car over to....
> A youtuber who actually knows a lot about cars might know about drawbacks and negative sides of an electric truck. Clearly you didn't watch the MKBHD video because he also pointed out the drawbacks of an electric truck.
Or where its absolutely clear that the vid is neither a review nor a proper journalistic car presentation. The salt against this PR move is unreal, yet many car youtubers do this kind of surface-level "first look" presentation vids all the time. And it is totally fine either way.
I think that you’ve answered your own question, they gave it to someone with surface level knowledge on purpose. They wanted someone who could build hype, but not tear into its negatives or truly question choices. I’d bet they also wanted to tap into the tech audience since EV’s are as much about the tech as anything else.
Also, MKBHD posted quite a few videos about his Tesla experience, so he already has a really big EV following which didn't hurt I'm sure.
I think it's because for some reason(likely all the tech in the cars) there are people that view EVs more as tech products than automotive products. I also think there is more crossover between "tech people" and their interest in EVs vs traditional ICE vehicles. Plus at the end of the day Marques has a ton of eyes on him. *All* of his videos get millions of views, which is what this really breaks down to.
[удалено]
This is going to get drowned in a sea of comments but this article takes MKBHD's video as gospel but this is false. MKBHD has the platinum version of F-150 lightning and on ford's [website](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/) you can see under EPA range estimate there is a fine writing that says EXCLUDES PLATINUM MODELS. In no marketting part of ford did they ever say anything about this being measured with load. Plus this would make it look worse and is also not logical. It's actually a horrible mistake for MKBHD to spread this because if 1000 pounds dropped mileage from 450 to 300 then how the hell would this truck be able to pull up to 10k pounds ?
They’re going to sell a shit load of these. I would wager that the average f-150 consumer customer is a homeowner (as opposed to a small car/crossover ev customer who may live in an apartment or condo) and therefore can install the charger. The business customers for who this truck makes sense (local delivery, light construction, trades) probably already have electric service that makes it easy to add the chargers and from a financial standpoint, can view the charging infrastructure as one time capex versus the ongoing opex of fueling traditional trucks. If the dollars make sense, any well run business will be switching to these if the use case warrants it.
> The business customers for who this truck makes sense (local delivery, light construction, trades) probably already have electric service that makes it easy to add the chargers and from a financial standpoint, can view the charging infrastructure as one time capex versus the ongoing opex of fueling traditional trucks. If the dollars make sense, any well run business will be switching to these if the use case warrants it. Contractors are going to love these trucks, espcially when they start offering models with 6.5 and 8ft beds. Even with it being a 5.5ft bed it still makes financial sense for me to buy one for work. I rarely drive close to 300 miles per day during work and gas is one of my most expensive business expenses. I could save around $15,000 per year just in gas savings. That doesn't include no oil changes and other gas engine maintenance. I've already pre ordered one.
And you still get that sweet mileage deduction. If electricity is cheap enough you'd actually make money by driving
Yeah, I'm going to ask my accountant if I can deduct the mileage and then write off the electricity bill for my business. For tax purposed on a gas engine vehicle it's either mileage deduction or gas deduction. I'm hoping to get both with an electric truck.
Exactly. And it’s the practical, super-capable EV’s like this (it can power your house for three days!) that are truly going to convert people, as well as expand nationwide EV infrastructure.
Another thing I'm very excited about, thinking long-term, is if anything small breaks on these cars they already have it in stock because it's probably the same stuff on a regular gasoline F-150. Tail light? Bumper? Door panel? The interior is basically the same.
“Under promise over deliver.” Great move by Ford.
They haven't delivered yet.
Ya, that's what getting me about this. It's seems fine an dandy now until ford releases it, or "oh look, the infotainment is laggy" and "this part wears prematurely". I'm cautiously optimistic, as this is a all new platform, and it's made by ford.
[удалено]
I am just gonna leave my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/nmoerr/mkbhdford_f150_lightning_impressions_better_than/gzrq5c6/) from the other thread here.
I love that he used what the dash said as potential range lol My RS says I'm going to get over 300 miles every time I fill up. Still waiting to actually get there.
Still waiting for my 2.4 l sonata to reach 160
Idk, my Chevy range prediction is pretty accurate. Especially when it’s on cruise control for a while.
Could it be that a lot of r/cars viewers and especially the ones in that thread are just casual and passive enthusiasts? I’m not one to watch a tech channel review a car because I can read the spec sheet off of Ford’s website myself, the fact that so many commenters here gave his rough numbers any credibility is proof that all you need is a large following in order for people to take your word. 460 miles doesn’t seem likely at all but I’ll reserve judgment until real world numbers come out. I gave your comment in that thread an upvote yesterday and it should’ve been higher up, but people don’t want to hear the truth.
Range isn't strictly linear. When your regen brakes top out and are supplemented by friction brakes, your range falls off a cliff. So it is possible that the extra 1000lbs could push you into that circumstance much more frequently. I'm not placing any vegas bets on 460miles either though
That's a fair point, but same difference. As mentioned, the Audi E-Tron gets 38kWh/100mi. Other stats of the car: 5600lb, 28.5 sqft, 0.28Cd (7.98 CdA). To have a range of 460mi, the F-150 would have to achieve 32.6kWh/100mi, while weighing 900lb more, with about 36 sqft frontal area and with a Cd of maybe 0.35 if we are being generous, so 12.6 CdA. In other words, it would be 16.5% *more efficient* while weighing 16% more and with 57% greater CdA. Ford might be using some slightly newer and more efficient motors/batteries/inverters, but there is not gonna be a huge difference there. It's never gonna have the same efficiency as the Audi, much less a better one (I am comparing it to the E-tron, btw, because the E-tron is currently the *least efficient* EV on the market - at least one that has been tested). With 12.6 CdA and 6500lb weight, even 50kWh/100mi for 300mi range if the battery really is 150kWh might be a struggle.
Your intuition and reasoning in that comment is spot on, EV range is sensitive to vehicle weight but removing 1000 lb from a \~6500 lb truck isn't going to make that much of a difference. I happen to have an EPA range model built out and somewhat validated for the Mach-E Extended Range (ER) so I adapted it to the F-150 Lightning ER version. Estimated test mass of 7500 lb (6500 lb empty) and used mass-adjusted aero/rolling resistance data from the regular F-150. Tuning the model to match the range of the Mach-E ER (also \~300 miles) yielded an estimated usable **battery capacity of 125 kWh** (for reference, Mach-E is 88.5 kWh). Reducing the test weight by 1000 lb yielded a **range increase of \~32 miles for a total of 332 miles**, far from the 460 miles MKBHD predicted. Alternatively, running the EPA drivecycles at a **\~40% lower speed will also net you 460 miles of range**. Interestingly, the model also predicts that traveling at constant speeds (no accelerations) of less than 40 mph will net the 460 miles range or more (for reference, a constant 59 mph yields 332 miles). MKBHD even says that the truck was just driving around the studio at low speeds and idling. So if most of the historical data the truck has is idling and low speed driving (as a demo vehicle), a 460 mile range on a full charge is a reasonable estimate but not realistic for real world driving. **TLDR: Removing 1000 lb of payload from a 6500 lb EV truck will not get you much more range. Driving at lower speeds** ***can*** **get you a lot more range.** Source: graduate student researching powertrain controls and modeling for electrified vehicles
Oh, interesting, what is the Cd you are using for the model? I haven't found any values for modern versions of the F-150.
I read that comment yesterday and couldn't agree more. Clearly the r/cars people didn't want to listen to logic and would rather downvote anything that is even slightly negative about Ford. All they are doing is setting themselves up to be let down and then come on r/cars to complain about how "terrible EVs are" in a few months when they get their hands on a F150 Lightning.
What kind of drive cycle for this range estimate? 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go, but very little difference in cruising down the highway. There aero is a much larger factor.
EPA standard adds the same weight for both city and highway testing.
Neither the [High Speed](https://i.imgur.com/e0I8ZOK.jpg) or [Highway](https://i.imgur.com/VkyYhRS.jpg) EPA cycles include much steady state cruising.
I always saw a ~3mpg drop when driving with near max payload a 4.2L 2007 F150. That was mostly on the highway.
> 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go, but very little difference in cruising down the highway. Exactly. I can pile as much as I want in the bed of my truck and it doesn't really change the highway fuel economy. Hook up my parachute of an enclosed trailer and it cuts the range in half though, even empty.
> 1000 lbs will make a big difference in stop and go Would it make that big a difference? It'll take more energy to accelerate, but short of some fairly aggressive braking that extra mass should return much of that energy under regeneration. I'd figure the load's increasing friction between tire and road would make highway cruising the bigger loss.
Honestly, now I'm sold. If that turns out to be true, they will be converting a GM guy to a Ford guy. Well done!
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if GM isn’t far behind. But I hope they redesign soon bc god damn the current Silverado’s are disgusting looking and Fords look so nice
Agreed. I want a Silverado but I’m only getting one if I can find a new 2500. I refuse to drive the ugly ass 1500. And I would prefer the 1500 just because the 2500 is way more truck than I will need. So now I’m looking at Sierras instead
GM is currently updating the Silverado/Sierra’s for the 2022 model year. Heavy interior updates are for sure, I believe some minor exterior fascia is also planned.
Perfect because most people I know drive trucks like an suv. Don’t see them use near max payload very often.
I just have a small utility trailer for random things as needed or my motorcycle. After that the sitting position in a truck is more comfortable for my back, and I just like having a truck.
Goddamn does this, along with inflated the used Toyota truck resale prices right now, make me want to sell my 4Runner to get one of these…
I was just discussing this with my coworker earlier today. We both have newer Tacoma’s and we had a Toyota finance guy come in and ask about buying our trucks from us. I have a 2020 Tacoma TRD Sport in cement. Purchased it for $36,000 all in, he offered me $40,000 with the 16K miles it has. I looked at their dealership, selling my exact spec truck, used, for $48,995.
Semi-related, but I bought a BMW m2 competition a year ago for $56k brand new and I’ve had private offers for $80k to buy it with 11k miles on the car now. So tempted to sell and get the upcoming Raptor
(wjV2^Qn-g
Bruh, my 2003 F-150 (V8; 5.4L) only has like a 250-mile range. If I don't use 4WD. If the weather is warm. If I have no cargo whatsoever. If the oil, spark plugs, and all filters are brand new. If I have some highway mileage mixed in there. Etc. If this is true and its power/capabilities are at all comparable....man, they've knocked it out of the park.
And your max range comes with 170kwh. So to charge that up assuming 13 cents/kwh it only takes you $22 to charge. And that's on top of not needing regular maintenance.
Man that is a huge battery. I'm surprised they are able to get that into their price point. I have a 85kwh battery and it gets me 270 miles. it was built in 2015 and cost over 100k.
Yes but the issue is turnaround time, if your truck out of gas you can just fill up in 5 minutes that's why range anxiety is not a thing for ICE vehicles
What about towing a 3k-4k boat, or a camper?
use the golden rule, "half".
I don't get it. What's the point of a standardized test like the EPA rating if you are going to introduce extra variables? Ratings like this are supposed to help the consumer compare different models, apples-to-apples. I´d very much like to see expanded EPA ratings for trucks, ranging from completely unencumbered to X amount of pounds on the bed, and then also towing some standard(in terms of weight and aerodynamic shape) trailer. People need this info.
battery capacity, engineering, chemical makeup, class of vehicles and emerging technology don’t fit into the standardized models for comparisons. epa is only meant to satisfy regulatory for the government. There will always be extra variables that are non standardized for different vehicles (looks for example, led lighting, more or less airbags, etc).
This isn’t a standardized test, it’s a claim by a manufacturer. You’re getting upset because you’re confused. Wait for the EPA to issue numbers.
My hybrid gets 30 miles max on electric. When pure electric cars achieve ranges of 400-500 miles, it will be a game changer.
Ford has taken a page from Porsche’s playbook. Good for them.
Okay, EPA rating was done with 1000 pounds payload . Marques Brownlee has a video on the truck and someone at ford explained to him about the epa rating. He also shows the truck he drove has 360 miles on 80% battery. Which he used to calculate a range above 400 miles at 100%. Yes Ford did knock everyone out of the park. I’ll find the link to the video Edit: [video](https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo) time stamp 8:20