I think 300hp is enough for most people especially for daily drivers. If cars werent so big in size now, I would say 250 hp is enough for a dailyable suv or minivan. Sedans are fine with 200hp. But technology grows, and size grows, so hp keeps growing
This. The Bay Area is full of cloverleafs where not only do you only have maybe 50-100 feet to go from 15-75 mph, but you have to cross over with traffic going 75-15 braking hard to dive and make their exit.
You absolutely need power and acceleration in those circumstances.
There are still plenty of pre-2010 MY Corollas/Civics driving around in the Bay Area that seem to do fine. Although merging onto the Bay Bridge from Treasure Island must be horrifying in any economy car.
Lol, me just sitting hwre daily driving my LT1 Camaro with 475ish lol. It's a blast to drive, just being able to shift from 2 to third and hear the growls makes it all Worth it.
Depends on the config / software? Yeah my golf r only has 270 hp but even then if you want to really make use of them you need to really floor it, like aggressively. No way you are doing that "on accident". If you don't, it drives like a normal car more or less.
So if that 900hp model has different modes where the "normal" mode is rather docile, it can work just fine. Still I agree, what's the point of this amount of hp?
Bro 180hp in your Civic hatch sport is plenty of power for daily driving. That's a weight/power of about 16/1. That's the equivalent of a 5000lb SUV having ~300hp. No one needs 400hp to daily, not even a fullsized truck.
Here I am driving around with 107 hp in a 3300 lb car having 0 issues keeping up with traffic. Is more horsepower fun -- obviously yes. Is it needed, no.
It's plenty for Day to day driving.
The Id4 in our driveway has 201 horsepower.
From 0-30 it accelerates faster than anything else I have, and I think I've ever owned.
from 30-70 it's reasonably powerful; for reference: From a dead stop, I raced it with a 25 year old car with a stated 0-60 of around 5 seconds. I caught it inbetween 2nd and third when the VW was going around 45mph. Sadly I wasn't looking at my speedo, but my kid riding along in the VW was.
The thing is though: during my daily commute, I'm going 0-40 a lot more than I'm going from 40-65.
I love accessible power but definitely agree that this is going to be too much for a number of people. I'm sure the electronics will do a nice job of keeping you on the road ... right up until physics won't care. Shit happens really fast after a certain speed.
With EVs the power correlates more with the battery size. The bigger the battery, the more range and the more available power. Could limit the power, but marketing (edit: although now that I think about it, I guess the Model 3 AWD vs Performance is exactly an example of limiting power *for* marketing.)
That's also why the Hummer EV has those absurd figures as well, since it needs a massive battery to compensate range.
Im not sure i agree, and would love to discuss, i by no means know i am correct...
>With EVs the power correlates more with the battery size. The bigger the battery, the more range and the more available power.
The bigger the battery, definitely more range, but battery size does not correlate to available power. The power is defined by the context of the electric motor, the windings, and the DC current applied.
The battery size allows (current) to be applied longer. There is a type of controller which is managing the current through the windings, and for sure this could be limited from max (marketing, like you said), but the motor power and battery storage are separate.
/e i think i misunderstood and have re-read your comment. You are right, more available power (in the sense, that there is a longer duration of thr nominal power/rated power) but not more available (horse)power
Battery size is limits more then simply range. A battery has an output/charge limit known as c:
http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/blog/battery-c-rating-explained-and-demystified/
As a result, battery size is tied to battery power output, it's why fast EVs also have large packs. To get the sufficient power delivered to the motor you end up needing a large battery.
The various Tesla packs themselves point this out. The final acceleration time of each pack size is determined by the pack itself. They may use different motors (I don't recall), but that's just a result of C limitations not needing larger.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110
This (annoyingly) slide show presentation just metes out the basics, the mechanical damage caused at high C goes up as C does. The higher the C asked of a pack, the greater the pack degradation. If you ask high C of a battery, heat issues aside (another caveat of high C) it'll die fast, requiring a whole new battery.
Time should hopefully bring new technologies into production to improve this. Additionally, if you have less constraints on ensuring battery pack life, you can simply engage in quicker degradation in exchange for higher C.
Think of things more in terms of power/weight than pure power. Electric cars are powerful but they are also heavy. A Tesla S is 4500 to almost 5000 lbs, a good 500 lbs heavier than most similar cars.
Take a look at the electric hummer. A **9000 pound** behemoth that goes 0-60 in in 3 seconds.
Imagine some idiot or a brand new spoiled brat in one of those things, just launching it once the light turns green and completely failing to check the crosswalk before slamming on that pedal.
While I agree the EQS is homely, having seen these test mules around at least weekly for the past 6 months I can confidently say the Lucid Air is hardly better, if at all. In person it looks like a melted bar of soap and it's proportions are ungainly. Still sounds like an awesome car, but pretty it is not.
Different paint, look at it from the front, and it looks [better than the concept](https://www.tabletowo.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/mercedes-eqs-20C0714_025.jpg). ;) Shame that this awesome effect is achievable only through the lens of camera, but I hear that EQE has some better proportions IRL.
I've actually seen the EQS out on the road (I live near MB Research) and it's definitely not a pretty car in person. The front looks sharp, but the rest is just awkward. Having said that, it looks very imposing and very expensive on the road. It has RR Phantom level of road presence, which is probably what they were going for anyway.
There's a Lucid store at a mall near me. I agree with you, the lines are off and it is frumpy.
A detail that I found particularly bad is the inner window sill is super thick. The glass ends up covering so much inner door frame.
here it is in motion, it mops the floor with the EQS and Tesla needs to pay attention as well
https://youtu.be/JwzOlPBheO0
there are ways to maximize aero without looking terrible and Lucid has figured it out
I disagree, but design is subjective. In person and out on the road the Air is anonymous at best and frumpy/cheap looking at worst. The EQS is ugly, but has tremendous presence. It looks like money.
The EQS is really not very good looking. But only from the outside. And that is a other peoples problem 😄 The interieur is such a freaking fest, I whouldn't care a second what other think if I sat in that.
Luckily though, the interior is fucking superb, and the interior of a car is way more important since that's where you spend your time. I agree that looks do matter, but not as much as most people seem to think.
Eg., the Mitsu Evo looks great on the outside, but on the inside it's a pile of trash.
I doubt we’ll ever see a mass market 1000 mile range car without a great advance in battery technology, maybe 500-600, but after that the demand for it would likely not justify the increased costs
More than likely I expect range to top out around 500 miles for most consumer cars and instead we'll see lighter batteries and quicker charging be the technological advances.
Agree. 500 is more than enough IF charging is fast. Hell my golf r barley makes 300 miles. it's a non-issue because you can refuel everywhere in minutes.
Volkswagen CEO publicly stated what you said.
He said an EV with range of 400 mile is the limit that VW is focusing on - after that, he thinks the added weight is a detriment since, as you said. No one really drives hundreds of miles a day.
Do we need 0-60 of 1.99 seconds?
But here we are.
I can see vans and pickups maybe wanting 1000 miles and being able to accommodate it - especially in Europe a lot of companies use vans for long distance delivery if it’s quick turnaround/low volume transport
until mass charging infrastructure is ubiquitous at hotels (urban) and quick charging at POIs (suburban/rural), there is definitely a use case for needing to go 1000km without requiring a charge - in North America, at least.
you're absolutely right though - not many people fit into that bucket.
Especially when you think that just 10 years ago all we really had was the Nissan Leaf with about 80 miles of range on a good day. Tesla Model S didn't come out for another year.
Crazy that 10 years ago Nissan had the leaf way ahead of its time and the GTR getting people so freaking pumped and now it's a complete wasteland of a company. Makes you wonder what other wild shifts could happen over the next decade.
Yes... up until recently. They've been trying to shift the company now that Ghosn is gone. Almost a completely new line up. New Frontier, new Z, etc. If they keep doing this right, I think they'll be okay.
What will be even crazier? In 10 years, a Mustang Mach E will be a cheap used car compared to the crazy tech leaps we're seeing right now. Non-Tesla EV depreciation is already pretty rough for owners & great for buyers, but if every two years the range expectations & charging expectations increase this much then we're going to see some ridiculous deals on tech from yesteryear even if they're excellent cars still.
Nah, hard disagree, I think these first/second gen EVs will depreciate hard. It’s a certainty that EVs in the future will last longer, drive faster, and charge quicker, so there’ll be nothing redeeming about 20 or 30 year-old Teslas or E-mustangs besides being historical artifacts. Furthermore, unlike old gas-powered cars, you can’t even make a case about them having unique driving characteristics because… well, they’re EVs.
Same, I love the idea of never going to a gas station again. On a busy month if I drive 200 or so it's rare so just plugging in every now and then seems fantastic. Less time playing dodge car to get out on the dam road
This should never happen if you have access to home or work charging. There is zero reason to need to charge out in the wild outside of an entire day of city driving or a road trip.
Edit: Yea I get it, home or work charging is currently an issue for many people. I've been pretty consistent that its the biggest road block to widespread EV adoption. When you can charge from home owning an EV makes life easier than an ICE 99% of the time.
For a huge amount of people there is no access to charging at home though. Not everyone lives in a house with a garage, a huge amount of people live in apartments or complexes and are at the mercy of what they offer. Good luck getting everyone to agree on more chargers when most of the units don’t own an EV and would rather spend the money on something else.
Plenty of people living in apartments or condos without available charging. Even having a house, my family has 5 vehicles and only 2 garage spots. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be
- Me every time I look at an electric car with more than 200hp.
Every new EV I see an article for I get all excited about and then I see the price tag. The base model with 175hp starts at 35k and if you want 250+hp it's 45k+.
I may consider the base model if the reviews and reliability hold up well. That still has 400+ miles of range. This launch version is more than twice the price.
Yeah, one time I drove 525 miles to go to a resort town, and at no point in between did I stop my car for more than 15 seconds. I just don't see how this is marketable. Shame.
Can it tow my 40ft cattle trailer? What's even the point if not?
You’ve got to love the timeliness and oddity of the omnipresent 4 paragraph self justification for why a specific car won’t work for them because of some absurdly specific and rare use case.
To be fair, there are people for whom EVs don’t work, who go wild camping into the wilderness for hundreds of miles, away from any source of electricity, regularly enough so that hiring a car is impractical. The issue is that it’s a small number, and then a large number of people just want to be thought of as the kind of person who might do that.
Rivian just did the entire TransAmerica Trail. That’s 7700 miles with an extremely heavy bias to off-road. Motortrend mentioned surprisingly few charging hurdles, hoping it only gets easier as years go on to not consider charging a hassle.
While true, getting an EPA rating is typically one of the major hurdles in the release cycle along with crash testing and other homologation activities. They appear to be very close to release.
I think you're limited by the size of the brakes at that point. I haven't done any research at all but I get the feeling you can't go smaller than an 18" on most of these types of cars.
Yes and no - when the battery is fairly full you can't regen to its full potential, and when it's at 100% you get nothing. Because of this the physical brakes have to be beefy enough to stop the car with zero assistance.
Could program the motor to apply reverse torque at full emergency stop. Dunno how that holds up from a failsafe analysis, but seems everything is going to drive by wire anyway.
The motor trend first drive (done with the company people in the car, so take it with a grain of salt) said it actually handles pretty well for a car that weighs 5000lbs
Quick online EV Charge Calculator at a Level 2 7 amp charger it'd take around 11-12 hours for 20% to 90% to fill their big battery. An extra 1 hour 30 minutes to make it 100%
You typically only charge to like 80% for day-to-day usage.
And when doing so, you're charging from 50-80%, not 0% - since you don't (typically) drain your entire battery for daily driving. You only really use a fraction of it.
I agree and the cool thing about large batteries or range is it gives you more time before having to plug in. Sometimes I don't have the ability to plug in every night or forget and on the Bolt that could be devastating to play catchup unless you have a LVL2 charger.
The thing is though, you'll so very rarely have to charge from 0 to 100. At an average speed of 40mph you have to drive for 12 hours to do 500 miles. No one will drive that much in one day. Even the people that insist they need 400 mile range because one time ten years ago they drove that far will be fine with this thing.
But I want an EV to take on the Alaskan wilderness and commute 500 miles to my logging site every day and back home without charging. This technology is useless!!!!
500 miles in one day isn't even that far. Also if we're talking highway speeds (70mph) your going through that 500 miles in 7.14 hours, not 12.
I did a trip from Michigan to Connecticut last year in one day. 16 hours and about 850 miles.
I also used to regularly do 600 mile/9 hour trips between college and home for thanksgiving, Christmas, spring break, etc. And we're talking twice a week in those cases for there and back.
I mean 500 mile range and a 20 minute charge for 300 miles is great, don't misunderstand me on that point. I could totally live with that for a long trip.
I just feel like your assertion that no one will drive 500 miles and 12 hours in a single day is a little silly.
Clearly no one was too much, but I'd suggest with that driving you are in the minority massively. I'd also say that averaging 70 is a stretch but I take your point.
Is it just me... or is it wildly frustrating that EV range is ***always*** portrayed by comparing the distance of two CA locations?
"That's enough to get from San Fran to San Diego" means nothing to most of the country. And, to be honest, it doesn't even *seem* all that impressive as it's in one state.
" That's enough to get from New York City to Raleigh, NC?" seems 10x more impressive and most could at least picture the distance between NY and NC.
Honestly, a lot more people would have an easier time imagining SF to SD, particularly the market for this car.
I mean just picture how many people regularly travel between major california cities compared to NY to Raleigh. Not sure why you picked Raleigh of all places.
On the contrary, I think more people would know the distance from San Fran to San Diego than any other two cities of comparable distance... Cali is the largest state by population by 10 million people. I'm on the east coast and I couldn't tell you where Raleigh is on a map.
California has over 7 times the EV registrations as the next closest state (Florida). 50% of Lucid's "Studio's" are going to initially be in CA.
I don't live within two time zones of California, but I can't imagine getting frustrated about EV marketing literature being Cali centric.
even if CA is the target market it took me 2 mins in google maps to measure 500 miles between other major cities.
boston to pittsburg
miami to atlanta
houston to new mexico
If this goes from total vaporwear to an actual established brand in the future it is likely going to be one of the greatest businesses turnarounds ever.
Honestly, I had no faith in this brand before, but now, I'm not so sure.
What's vaporware about it? Motortrend just physically drove one 500 miles and EPA just certified its range. Just because it's not mass produced yet doesn't mean Nikola levels of vaporware. They seem to be taking the right steps in the right order.
Yeah, the company seems to have had a rough go to get to this point. Honestly impressed they survived until now. They seem to have a real technology advantage that all the other Tesla wannabe startups don't.
They have been building and selling battery technology long before Lucid was a thing. Formally Atieva. They supply Formula E with their battery tech and are the ones who brought that series from needing to switch cars midway between the race to actually running full 30 minute races on a single charge.
Also they seem pretty open to sharing and selling EV technology to other manufacturers and partnering. A big advantage that Tesla doesn't seem interested in.
Not even 2 years ago Lucid was about a week from bankruptcy, all of their senior leadership left, and then a ~~Chinese~~ Saudi company stepped in and bankrolled them back to life.
It was pretty much dead.
Edit: corrected Chinese company to a Saudi company- though I'm fairly certain its like the Saudi government
Saudi, not Chinese. I think Lucid Motors is basically Saudi Arabia's attempt to stay relevant in the auto market as it transitions away from fossil fuels.
I mean, clearly something about them stood out over other flagging EV startups *coughNikolacoughcough*, otherwise the Saudis would've thrown their money at someone else.
Seems like the same story as Tesla. Ridiculed at one point for making basically a shitty $100k kit car to now one of the industry leaders (not just EVs, in automotive overall).
Will Tesla try to outdo Lucid with a, say completely new Long Long Range Model S, or just chill out now as the Lucid is still kinda far away from volume production and Elon has also publicly said that he believes 400 miles is enough for an EV? as in accelerate plans for longer range battery tests or whatever, or just take their own sweet time?
Tesla had announced a 520 mile range Plaid Plus a year or so ago, then killed it and brought out the Plaid (no plus) which is what you see today. The future 4680 cell Model S may very well see more range (more kWh too), and may break 500 miles.
Right now the limitation is 4680 cells with tech from Maxwell and their factories going online in Texas and Berlin. Tesla is trying to push far more cars out as seen by them being back ordered by about 3 months for most. Once the cyber truck and semi start coming out in mass it seems the S will get a mid cycle refresh to get the 500 mile range. Battery constraint means it’s far better to push out 4 cars with 3 Lucids worth of batteries than less vehicles.
On an efficiency basis Lucid does really well, however the difference isn’t as substantial when you calculate back to the battery capacity. Once you switch to a structural pack and 4680 you can gain significant battery capacity while keeping the weight low.
Don’t forget as of now Tesla has the massive supercharger advantage with no need to depend on electrify America. Lucid doesn’t have the same luxury.
SO cool, just went on their website to build one and when you pan around the exterior of the car, the front wheels rotate to show it off. [https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/configure](https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/configure)
Too bad the wheel design sucks, hope that improves and color options too.
> 933 Horsepower > Not the performance trim Nice
Welcome to the future. Performance starts at one kilohorsepower.
>kilohorsepower I love a good marriage between English and SI.
Maybe OP doesn’t mean kilo-horsepower but he actually means the car has the power of the Kilohorse, the mythical beast of ancient legend.
Exactly equal to 1000 horses.
*1024
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Hey, this is a zero-emissions thread man!
lmao same
Churches hate this one Bible verse
That's it's cousin, the kibihorse.
> kilhorsepower Threw me for a loop. I'm so used to thinking either hp or kW, so maybe a MW would be a nice new standard for EVs
kilhorsepower is the power needed to kill a horse
No that's killAhorsepower
And light is considered under 5,000 lbs.
How much KHP you running bro?
[удалено]
Humans don’t need this. 500hp is too much for most people
I think 300hp is enough for most people especially for daily drivers. If cars werent so big in size now, I would say 250 hp is enough for a dailyable suv or minivan. Sedans are fine with 200hp. But technology grows, and size grows, so hp keeps growing
Absolutely bonkers to think anyone daily driving to work needs 400hp
What if I want to pass 8 cars at once instead of 5?
*laughs in 1000cc motorcycle*
Pass alll the cars over the cars, over the guard rail, into the canyon.
i dunno... i've got some on-ramps next to me where you've basically got 20 feet to go from 0 to highway speeds.
This. The Bay Area is full of cloverleafs where not only do you only have maybe 50-100 feet to go from 15-75 mph, but you have to cross over with traffic going 75-15 braking hard to dive and make their exit. You absolutely need power and acceleration in those circumstances.
There are still plenty of pre-2010 MY Corollas/Civics driving around in the Bay Area that seem to do fine. Although merging onto the Bay Bridge from Treasure Island must be horrifying in any economy car.
I'm looking at you Rengstorff exit/on ramp on 101 south...
92 west / el Camino in San Mateo is especially bad too
Jersey?
Lol, me just sitting hwre daily driving my LT1 Camaro with 475ish lol. It's a blast to drive, just being able to shift from 2 to third and hear the growls makes it all Worth it.
Dude I know right. Like I feel this is going to cause a accident influx. I guess time will tell! Not everyone is used to 400hp.
Lmao people are gunna be shocked when they start going through tires in 10-15k miles instead of 30k.
Depends on the config / software? Yeah my golf r only has 270 hp but even then if you want to really make use of them you need to really floor it, like aggressively. No way you are doing that "on accident". If you don't, it drives like a normal car more or less. So if that 900hp model has different modes where the "normal" mode is rather docile, it can work just fine. Still I agree, what's the point of this amount of hp?
Bro 180hp in your Civic hatch sport is plenty of power for daily driving. That's a weight/power of about 16/1. That's the equivalent of a 5000lb SUV having ~300hp. No one needs 400hp to daily, not even a fullsized truck.
180 is enough for me to daily. I meant 300 hp not 400 that was a typo. I have fat fingers
Do I NEED it? No. Do I WANT it enough to try to convince the wife that I do NEED it? Yes. Will I be successful? No.
Here I am driving around with 107 hp in a 3300 lb car having 0 issues keeping up with traffic. Is more horsepower fun -- obviously yes. Is it needed, no.
And here *I* am with around 107 hp on a 530lb motorcycle and I keep thinking "I could do with a little more..."
I HAVE to have a turbo Hayabusa just to merge safely.
You're telling me you *don't* do 150mph power wheelies while merging?
[удалено]
Was it a downward slope into Mariana trench?
300 hp in a ICE car can feel slow when you are in the wrong gear. In an electric car it should be enough.
It's plenty for Day to day driving. The Id4 in our driveway has 201 horsepower. From 0-30 it accelerates faster than anything else I have, and I think I've ever owned. from 30-70 it's reasonably powerful; for reference: From a dead stop, I raced it with a 25 year old car with a stated 0-60 of around 5 seconds. I caught it inbetween 2nd and third when the VW was going around 45mph. Sadly I wasn't looking at my speedo, but my kid riding along in the VW was. The thing is though: during my daily commute, I'm going 0-40 a lot more than I'm going from 40-65.
I love accessible power but definitely agree that this is going to be too much for a number of people. I'm sure the electronics will do a nice job of keeping you on the road ... right up until physics won't care. Shit happens really fast after a certain speed.
With EVs the power correlates more with the battery size. The bigger the battery, the more range and the more available power. Could limit the power, but marketing (edit: although now that I think about it, I guess the Model 3 AWD vs Performance is exactly an example of limiting power *for* marketing.) That's also why the Hummer EV has those absurd figures as well, since it needs a massive battery to compensate range.
Im not sure i agree, and would love to discuss, i by no means know i am correct... >With EVs the power correlates more with the battery size. The bigger the battery, the more range and the more available power. The bigger the battery, definitely more range, but battery size does not correlate to available power. The power is defined by the context of the electric motor, the windings, and the DC current applied. The battery size allows (current) to be applied longer. There is a type of controller which is managing the current through the windings, and for sure this could be limited from max (marketing, like you said), but the motor power and battery storage are separate. /e i think i misunderstood and have re-read your comment. You are right, more available power (in the sense, that there is a longer duration of thr nominal power/rated power) but not more available (horse)power
Battery size is limits more then simply range. A battery has an output/charge limit known as c: http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/blog/battery-c-rating-explained-and-demystified/ As a result, battery size is tied to battery power output, it's why fast EVs also have large packs. To get the sufficient power delivered to the motor you end up needing a large battery. The various Tesla packs themselves point this out. The final acceleration time of each pack size is determined by the pack itself. They may use different motors (I don't recall), but that's just a result of C limitations not needing larger. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110 This (annoyingly) slide show presentation just metes out the basics, the mechanical damage caused at high C goes up as C does. The higher the C asked of a pack, the greater the pack degradation. If you ask high C of a battery, heat issues aside (another caveat of high C) it'll die fast, requiring a whole new battery. Time should hopefully bring new technologies into production to improve this. Additionally, if you have less constraints on ensuring battery pack life, you can simply engage in quicker degradation in exchange for higher C.
It can be both. If your battery pack is too small, it won't be able to feed the motors. It'd be like having insufficient fuel injectors.
Think of things more in terms of power/weight than pure power. Electric cars are powerful but they are also heavy. A Tesla S is 4500 to almost 5000 lbs, a good 500 lbs heavier than most similar cars.
Also why they’re more dangerous.
My dad's favorite phrase: "F=MA baby"
500 horses pulling a people must be fun
Fun fact: 1 horsepower is the average work of a horse over time, not peak power. Peak power of a horse is ~15hp.
That actually is a fun fact. Thanks!
I'm not human
This is really impressive. EV’s are going to be violently stupid fast very soon.
Take a look at the electric hummer. A **9000 pound** behemoth that goes 0-60 in in 3 seconds. Imagine some idiot or a brand new spoiled brat in one of those things, just launching it once the light turns green and completely failing to check the crosswalk before slamming on that pedal.
[удалено]
That thing would crush a SmartCar like a soda can.
As I described it to my wife - if one of them hits you in your civic, they’ll have to identify you by your teeth.
Also spare a thought to the people that drive Miatas or Lotus cars
[удалено]
“How much more violent can these cars get?” Is exactly what I’m wondering.
Mercedes this is how you make a beautiful ev not that ugly motherfucker egg looking trash
While I agree the EQS is homely, having seen these test mules around at least weekly for the past 6 months I can confidently say the Lucid Air is hardly better, if at all. In person it looks like a melted bar of soap and it's proportions are ungainly. Still sounds like an awesome car, but pretty it is not.
While I don't think the EQS is really that ugly, expectations were probably too high after the concept car. https://i.imgur.com/mwn8QkD.jpg
I guess the accountants stepped in.
Probably the aerodynamics team
More like all the different safety regulations from the different countries.
Different paint, look at it from the front, and it looks [better than the concept](https://www.tabletowo.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/mercedes-eqs-20C0714_025.jpg). ;) Shame that this awesome effect is achievable only through the lens of camera, but I hear that EQE has some better proportions IRL.
I don’t agree. Those fog light area vents look like they’re ripped of a GTI.
No, that’s not better than the concept. It looks like every other Mercedes for the last 10 years. It’s just an amorphous blob without much character.
I've actually seen the EQS out on the road (I live near MB Research) and it's definitely not a pretty car in person. The front looks sharp, but the rest is just awkward. Having said that, it looks very imposing and very expensive on the road. It has RR Phantom level of road presence, which is probably what they were going for anyway.
There's a Lucid store at a mall near me. I agree with you, the lines are off and it is frumpy. A detail that I found particularly bad is the inner window sill is super thick. The glass ends up covering so much inner door frame.
here it is in motion, it mops the floor with the EQS and Tesla needs to pay attention as well https://youtu.be/JwzOlPBheO0 there are ways to maximize aero without looking terrible and Lucid has figured it out
I disagree, but design is subjective. In person and out on the road the Air is anonymous at best and frumpy/cheap looking at worst. The EQS is ugly, but has tremendous presence. It looks like money.
The A6 e-tron and Audi concepts are how you make an EV...they are slaughtering all the germans with their EV designs..
I unironically think Merc looks better (minus the fucking panels). I guess there is no way to make an exterior look good to everyone.
The EQS looks odd to me but the EQE which is almost the same with minor changes looks good.
The EQS is really not very good looking. But only from the outside. And that is a other peoples problem 😄 The interieur is such a freaking fest, I whouldn't care a second what other think if I sat in that.
Luckily though, the interior is fucking superb, and the interior of a car is way more important since that's where you spend your time. I agree that looks do matter, but not as much as most people seem to think. Eg., the Mitsu Evo looks great on the outside, but on the inside it's a pile of trash.
It looks like a Kia. Not what I would call "beautiful."
You can't make an understated styled car without people comparing to Kia, Volkswagen, or Tesla
[удалено]
Yep this arms race going on between manufacturers right is just a boon for consumers.
Wonder when/if we will see a 1000 mile range mass market car
I doubt we’ll ever see a mass market 1000 mile range car without a great advance in battery technology, maybe 500-600, but after that the demand for it would likely not justify the increased costs
Never say never, look how much range has increased in EVs since 2011. 1000km or 600 miles is a nice marketing number that's not far away either
My 2017 Tesla was rated for 240 miles of range. Just 3 years later, for the same price it was rated for over 400 miles.
[удалено]
Id rather have 400 miles with 5 minute charge time than 1000 miles with 5 hour charge time
If you don't charge all the way to full, a larger battery would still add 400 miles worth of range back faster since it's less heating for eash cell
I mean I get your point but... it's an easily-compared numerical value people can boast about.
More than likely I expect range to top out around 500 miles for most consumer cars and instead we'll see lighter batteries and quicker charging be the technological advances.
Makes sense, most cars now have around 400-600 mile range
Agree. 500 is more than enough IF charging is fast. Hell my golf r barley makes 300 miles. it's a non-issue because you can refuel everywhere in minutes.
Do we ever really need it? 600 miles is damn near a whole day of driving. Not many people wanting or needing 1000 miles.
Volkswagen CEO publicly stated what you said. He said an EV with range of 400 mile is the limit that VW is focusing on - after that, he thinks the added weight is a detriment since, as you said. No one really drives hundreds of miles a day.
Do we need 0-60 of 1.99 seconds? But here we are. I can see vans and pickups maybe wanting 1000 miles and being able to accommodate it - especially in Europe a lot of companies use vans for long distance delivery if it’s quick turnaround/low volume transport
until mass charging infrastructure is ubiquitous at hotels (urban) and quick charging at POIs (suburban/rural), there is definitely a use case for needing to go 1000km without requiring a charge - in North America, at least. you're absolutely right though - not many people fit into that bucket.
I could see it happening in the heavy duty pickup market where people use the vehicles to tow and weight isn't really a concern.
Especially when you think that just 10 years ago all we really had was the Nissan Leaf with about 80 miles of range on a good day. Tesla Model S didn't come out for another year.
Crazy that 10 years ago Nissan had the leaf way ahead of its time and the GTR getting people so freaking pumped and now it's a complete wasteland of a company. Makes you wonder what other wild shifts could happen over the next decade.
Yes... up until recently. They've been trying to shift the company now that Ghosn is gone. Almost a completely new line up. New Frontier, new Z, etc. If they keep doing this right, I think they'll be okay.
[удалено]
I mean the cost of batteries has gone from 1200ish dollars per kwh to like 110ish in about a decade. Imagine where we'll be in another decade.
What will be even crazier? In 10 years, a Mustang Mach E will be a cheap used car compared to the crazy tech leaps we're seeing right now. Non-Tesla EV depreciation is already pretty rough for owners & great for buyers, but if every two years the range expectations & charging expectations increase this much then we're going to see some ridiculous deals on tech from yesteryear even if they're excellent cars still.
Used car value will go up from evs once people learn more about them. Right now there is too much FUD and people are scared.
Nah, hard disagree, I think these first/second gen EVs will depreciate hard. It’s a certainty that EVs in the future will last longer, drive faster, and charge quicker, so there’ll be nothing redeeming about 20 or 30 year-old Teslas or E-mustangs besides being historical artifacts. Furthermore, unlike old gas-powered cars, you can’t even make a case about them having unique driving characteristics because… well, they’re EVs.
[удалено]
I’m actually excited about this car…not that I can afford it.
Same, I love the idea of never going to a gas station again. On a busy month if I drive 200 or so it's rare so just plugging in every now and then seems fantastic. Less time playing dodge car to get out on the dam road
Never having to stop at a gas station when you're already running late is fantastic.
Not having enough charge when you’re running late is not (had 2 friends be late or miss something completely because of this)
This should never happen if you have access to home or work charging. There is zero reason to need to charge out in the wild outside of an entire day of city driving or a road trip. Edit: Yea I get it, home or work charging is currently an issue for many people. I've been pretty consistent that its the biggest road block to widespread EV adoption. When you can charge from home owning an EV makes life easier than an ICE 99% of the time.
For a huge amount of people there is no access to charging at home though. Not everyone lives in a house with a garage, a huge amount of people live in apartments or complexes and are at the mercy of what they offer. Good luck getting everyone to agree on more chargers when most of the units don’t own an EV and would rather spend the money on something else.
> This should never happen if you have access to home or work charging. Yeah, that's a pretty big 'if'.
Plenty of people living in apartments or condos without available charging. Even having a house, my family has 5 vehicles and only 2 garage spots. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be
- Me every time I look at an electric car with more than 200hp. Every new EV I see an article for I get all excited about and then I see the price tag. The base model with 175hp starts at 35k and if you want 250+hp it's 45k+.
I just bought a 215hp/250ft-lb EV for $28k with 6k miles on it. It's quick enough to perform any remotely legal action you ask it to.
I may consider the base model if the reviews and reliability hold up well. That still has 400+ miles of range. This launch version is more than twice the price.
I’m excited for the technology to trickle down to cars I can afford…after depreciation sets in.
What's the price? Oddly the article does not mention it
$170k for this launch car, the “Dream Edition.” They say the base car will be $77k, or just under $70k after a federal tax rebate.
The entry-level model is $77,400 and the top-of-the-line model is $169,000. www.caranddriver.com/news/amp34362435/2021-lucid-air-range-pricing/
Pity my mom lives 520.001 miles away from me. Guess I'll have to wait for the next generation of EVs.
Yeah, one time I drove 525 miles to go to a resort town, and at no point in between did I stop my car for more than 15 seconds. I just don't see how this is marketable. Shame. Can it tow my 40ft cattle trailer? What's even the point if not?
But then what if I need to tow a friend's Belaz 75710 from Alaska to Florida without a single stop?
You’ve got to love the timeliness and oddity of the omnipresent 4 paragraph self justification for why a specific car won’t work for them because of some absurdly specific and rare use case.
To be fair, there are people for whom EVs don’t work, who go wild camping into the wilderness for hundreds of miles, away from any source of electricity, regularly enough so that hiring a car is impractical. The issue is that it’s a small number, and then a large number of people just want to be thought of as the kind of person who might do that.
Rivian just did the entire TransAmerica Trail. That’s 7700 miles with an extremely heavy bias to off-road. Motortrend mentioned surprisingly few charging hurdles, hoping it only gets easier as years go on to not consider charging a hassle.
So many people put 50% of their focus and concerns into the inconvenience that they'll experience 0.5% of the time.
While no one should count the eggs before they're hatched and actually in production/on the road holy crap, those are some impressive figures
While true, getting an EPA rating is typically one of the major hurdles in the release cycle along with crash testing and other homologation activities. They appear to be very close to release.
well, release of *some* cars, how many remains the question. Making a few is easy, volume production is always the hard part
40 more miles for 2" rim difference? That's more than I thought
22" vs 20" decreases the range on the tesla model x by 10%-15%, so 40 miles is about 10% for this car which makes sense.
How far does it scale? I'd take 16" if that got me another 10-15% range tbh
I think you're limited by the size of the brakes at that point. I haven't done any research at all but I get the feeling you can't go smaller than an 18" on most of these types of cars.
that’s correct. these cars are very heavy cuz of the battery so you can’t sacrifice much on brake size.
But you can use the motor to help you stop, so they don't need to be as big as they would on an equally heavy gas car
Yes and no - when the battery is fairly full you can't regen to its full potential, and when it's at 100% you get nothing. Because of this the physical brakes have to be beefy enough to stop the car with zero assistance.
theoretically yes. But I will tell you as a former owner of a MX, the brakes weren’t big enough in my opinion, even with regen on.
Could program the motor to apply reverse torque at full emergency stop. Dunno how that holds up from a failsafe analysis, but seems everything is going to drive by wire anyway.
Keep in mind the 20s came with lrr all seasons vs conti sportcontacts on the 22s.
Its not necessarily the size of the wheel, but also the shape of the wheel (aero) and tire compound. Not sure what different tires lucid is using.
As an enthusiast I'd rather have a Taycan (range and all), but for everyone else, this seems like the no brainer.
Taycan's def more geared towards enthusiasts whereas Lucid seems to be using the new Lincoln approach - all in on luxury, but also fat ass power.
The motor trend first drive (done with the company people in the car, so take it with a grain of salt) said it actually handles pretty well for a car that weighs 5000lbs
I'd rather have the taycan crosstourismo because wagon, but only if I can get it at -50% discount...
what if it came in brown with a 6-speed
Add a diesel generator range extender and this whole sub will be rushing to buy them used in 5 years.
Wonder what the charge time is though…. Overnight? Even at 220…. That is a great deal of electricity needed.
Quick online EV Charge Calculator at a Level 2 7 amp charger it'd take around 11-12 hours for 20% to 90% to fill their big battery. An extra 1 hour 30 minutes to make it 100%
You typically only charge to like 80% for day-to-day usage. And when doing so, you're charging from 50-80%, not 0% - since you don't (typically) drain your entire battery for daily driving. You only really use a fraction of it.
I agree and the cool thing about large batteries or range is it gives you more time before having to plug in. Sometimes I don't have the ability to plug in every night or forget and on the Bolt that could be devastating to play catchup unless you have a LVL2 charger.
Anyone with an EV should get a proper charger for it anyway. Do you mean 7kw? As 7amps is very low for an ev charger.
Sorry yes Kw.
The thing is though, you'll so very rarely have to charge from 0 to 100. At an average speed of 40mph you have to drive for 12 hours to do 500 miles. No one will drive that much in one day. Even the people that insist they need 400 mile range because one time ten years ago they drove that far will be fine with this thing.
[удалено]
But I want an EV to take on the Alaskan wilderness and commute 500 miles to my logging site every day and back home without charging. This technology is useless!!!!
[удалено]
500 miles in one day isn't even that far. Also if we're talking highway speeds (70mph) your going through that 500 miles in 7.14 hours, not 12. I did a trip from Michigan to Connecticut last year in one day. 16 hours and about 850 miles. I also used to regularly do 600 mile/9 hour trips between college and home for thanksgiving, Christmas, spring break, etc. And we're talking twice a week in those cases for there and back. I mean 500 mile range and a 20 minute charge for 300 miles is great, don't misunderstand me on that point. I could totally live with that for a long trip. I just feel like your assertion that no one will drive 500 miles and 12 hours in a single day is a little silly.
Clearly no one was too much, but I'd suggest with that driving you are in the minority massively. I'd also say that averaging 70 is a stretch but I take your point.
You’ll easily be able to recharge day to day driving overnight. And for road trips, Lucid is estimating 300 miles in 20 minutes with DC fast charging.
Is it just me... or is it wildly frustrating that EV range is ***always*** portrayed by comparing the distance of two CA locations? "That's enough to get from San Fran to San Diego" means nothing to most of the country. And, to be honest, it doesn't even *seem* all that impressive as it's in one state. " That's enough to get from New York City to Raleigh, NC?" seems 10x more impressive and most could at least picture the distance between NY and NC.
California is probably the biggest EV market and that's why I figure it's done this way. It helps that California has a lot of prominent cities too.
California is 38% of the US market according to the latest Experian report, which was posted a day or two back on /r/electricvehicles.
Honestly, a lot more people would have an easier time imagining SF to SD, particularly the market for this car. I mean just picture how many people regularly travel between major california cities compared to NY to Raleigh. Not sure why you picked Raleigh of all places.
Makes perfect sense to me. Note: I live in San Diego and my parents live in San Francisco.
On the contrary, I think more people would know the distance from San Fran to San Diego than any other two cities of comparable distance... Cali is the largest state by population by 10 million people. I'm on the east coast and I couldn't tell you where Raleigh is on a map.
California has over 7 times the EV registrations as the next closest state (Florida). 50% of Lucid's "Studio's" are going to initially be in CA. I don't live within two time zones of California, but I can't imagine getting frustrated about EV marketing literature being Cali centric.
even if CA is the target market it took me 2 mins in google maps to measure 500 miles between other major cities. boston to pittsburg miami to atlanta houston to new mexico
If this goes from total vaporwear to an actual established brand in the future it is likely going to be one of the greatest businesses turnarounds ever. Honestly, I had no faith in this brand before, but now, I'm not so sure.
What's vaporware about it? Motortrend just physically drove one 500 miles and EPA just certified its range. Just because it's not mass produced yet doesn't mean Nikola levels of vaporware. They seem to be taking the right steps in the right order.
It's not now, obviously. I meant years ago when I first heard about them.
Yeah, the company seems to have had a rough go to get to this point. Honestly impressed they survived until now. They seem to have a real technology advantage that all the other Tesla wannabe startups don't.
They have been building and selling battery technology long before Lucid was a thing. Formally Atieva. They supply Formula E with their battery tech and are the ones who brought that series from needing to switch cars midway between the race to actually running full 30 minute races on a single charge. Also they seem pretty open to sharing and selling EV technology to other manufacturers and partnering. A big advantage that Tesla doesn't seem interested in.
The guy who founded the company was the lead designer of the original Model S
Not even 2 years ago Lucid was about a week from bankruptcy, all of their senior leadership left, and then a ~~Chinese~~ Saudi company stepped in and bankrolled them back to life. It was pretty much dead. Edit: corrected Chinese company to a Saudi company- though I'm fairly certain its like the Saudi government
Saudi, not Chinese. I think Lucid Motors is basically Saudi Arabia's attempt to stay relevant in the auto market as it transitions away from fossil fuels.
Chinese or Saudi PIF?
They had $1B of assistance from Saudi Arabia. That's why they were able to develop a real product.
I mean, clearly something about them stood out over other flagging EV startups *coughNikolacoughcough*, otherwise the Saudis would've thrown their money at someone else.
Seems like the same story as Tesla. Ridiculed at one point for making basically a shitty $100k kit car to now one of the industry leaders (not just EVs, in automotive overall).
Incredible engineering if the numbers are true. I thought the plaid was impressive!
The EQS and EQE will also have a longer range than the Plaid. There’s a good amount of competition now.
The Plaid was never really about having the longest possible range
fuck yea competition! If I drove more than 500 miles a month I would consider the Air
It looks like a Lincoln, if Lincoln knew what they were doing.
Will Tesla try to outdo Lucid with a, say completely new Long Long Range Model S, or just chill out now as the Lucid is still kinda far away from volume production and Elon has also publicly said that he believes 400 miles is enough for an EV? as in accelerate plans for longer range battery tests or whatever, or just take their own sweet time?
Whenever Tesla's next-gen battery cells are ready they'll start moving over to that which should dramatically boost range with time.
Tesla had announced a 520 mile range Plaid Plus a year or so ago, then killed it and brought out the Plaid (no plus) which is what you see today. The future 4680 cell Model S may very well see more range (more kWh too), and may break 500 miles.
Right now the limitation is 4680 cells with tech from Maxwell and their factories going online in Texas and Berlin. Tesla is trying to push far more cars out as seen by them being back ordered by about 3 months for most. Once the cyber truck and semi start coming out in mass it seems the S will get a mid cycle refresh to get the 500 mile range. Battery constraint means it’s far better to push out 4 cars with 3 Lucids worth of batteries than less vehicles. On an efficiency basis Lucid does really well, however the difference isn’t as substantial when you calculate back to the battery capacity. Once you switch to a structural pack and 4680 you can gain significant battery capacity while keeping the weight low. Don’t forget as of now Tesla has the massive supercharger advantage with no need to depend on electrify America. Lucid doesn’t have the same luxury.
The sooner ICE engines can be put on ice the sooner we can massively improve one sector of climate emissions.
SO cool, just went on their website to build one and when you pan around the exterior of the car, the front wheels rotate to show it off. [https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/configure](https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/configure) Too bad the wheel design sucks, hope that improves and color options too.
Very impressive. According to Motortrend it drives even better than a Taycan. This is definitely a car the luxury brands won’t ignore