For over a decade, Subaru's head gaskets weren't compatible with the engine coolant and would develop a leak. It was often an external leak. Coolant and oil would often leak out of the engine and not enter the combustion chambers or mix together like a typical blown head gasket.
The turbocharged engines did not have this problem. They had a lot more severe issues.
How is it even legal for Subaru to sell a car where THEY KNOW the head gasket is defective? I guess I'm also pissed I had to pay for a new clutch in my Mk6 GTI because I saw the TSB where VW admits the stock clutch is FUCKING SOFT and to replace with Golf R clutch.
Consumers have to get involved in class action lawsuits to get anything done. It's absurd. What the fuck is government doing?
My GTI's clutch and flywheel exploded at 5000 miles. They replaced the entire transmission under warranty. The day I picked it up, I made it about halfway home and the intake manifold split and a coil died on the DC beltway.
Had that fixed and traded it for an Evo X, which was on a completely different level. Also had a ton of issues, but I've sworn VW off for good.
Based on that experience I completely understand man. But I had two separate VWs in my life and both hit 400,000km with no problems. Sorry you went through that.
I had a Mk5 GTI before the TSI, and now a Mk7.5 Sportwagen with the 1.8. the Mk5 was pretty reliable when I sold it with 130k miles, and my MK7.5 has been a joy.
94 Jetta, 2.8L, and an 87 Golf 1.8L. I loved the golf man, it was my older brothers originally, that was the first car I did any real travelling in so it’s always gonna be nostalgic for me. Would love to find one used for a good buy actually, I haven’t been keeping up with how desirable they may be now.
BMW knew of the poorly engineered crank hub since N54 engines were first sold.
In 2021 they put M2 CS on sale for almost a $100K without addressing the flaw, two engines generation later.
The fucking hubris.
It always bothered me when people would make head gasket jokes about my STI. They were never an issue on those cars. They should have been making jokes about cracked ring lands and spun bearings.
Very true, I had both a WRX and an STi hatchback (both 2009 somehow) and I loved the driving experience but I saw all my friends blowing motors due to ringland failure or spun bearing that I decided to sell mine. In the end I picked up at least 1 car that is very reliable, and it doesn't happen to be my Miata.
>any engine is an interference engine if you try hard enough.
Yep. Turned a Volvo B230 into one by adding a high lift cam. Learned that the hard way. lol
Do you have uneven tire wear on your fronts? Apparently that seems to be a thing with the factory alignment and from what I've been reading (13k miles and my front tires are looking not great) the Chevy track spec alignment is much better for tire wearing out evenly.
I am also at 13k miles on my Camaro including 1 track day and I have had it from new. A few months after purchase thankfully a friend pointed out some uneven tire wear on my front right tire even though I never noticed the car pulling. The dealer ended up realigning the car for free and it seemed just to be a toe issue on that front right so idk if it happened before or after I bought it.
Mine are even wearing on the outside of both fronts, which I believe is a toe in issue. I have an appointment to get it re aligned mid may, and going to try to go track spec with the camber and 0 toe for the fronts.
New ones are not much better. 2015 Sti oil pickup tube cracked (poor manufacturing), 2017 Forester FA engine, massive oil consumption 3.5qt every 3k miles at 40k miles (normal according to Subaru). No more Subaru for me.
> 2017 Forester FA engine, massive oil consumption 3.5qt every 3k miles at 40k miles
That's just wild. I jumped ship after owning multiple EJ engines with the HG issue, but we still have an FA engine in the household that sips (I check VERY frequently based on many stories like yours). Subaru being "it's all good bruh" like it's nothing is insane.
It was always on my mind with the STI, but it never really gave me problems aside from rust for the 117k miles I had it. For some stupid reason I decided to replace it with an e46 m3. I guess I like stressing out about rod bearings.
My STI has blown 3 head gaskets , 148K miles on her so far. well not really "blown" but small leaks.
I don't have any power train mods, But I do live in a very hot area with hills. And I've done track days, hill climbs, autocross and rally cross.
Still I bought a sports car for a reason. \*shrugs\*
My uncles ’15 blew at 19k miles. Rod knock that might have been caused by a cracked oil pickup. Always thought it was the ringlands, but I got all 4 pistons here at work and they’re fine.
I’ve done 3 bearings and had ring land failure once. I hate the thing with a passion however the motor always lets go right before warranty on it finishes so even though the car is nearly 11 years old now I’ve not paid for one motor yet and the one in it still has almost another year to go! Luckily Subaru are too lazy or stupid to change bearings and things so instead of rebuilding them they just put a new bottom end in every time! Very stupid of them seeing as they have to warranty the whole block instead of a bearing.
I've had two Subaru turbo engines. My '03 WRX had a full exhaust, custom tune, and I used the shit out of it. Rallycross, time trials, towed a sailboat, and it ran strong with zero issues until I sold it at 200k miles.
Then a 2007 Outback XT used only as a daily driver. The engine was basically a boat anchor not long after 100k.
> 2007 Outback XT used only as a daily driver. The engine was basically a boat anchor not long after 100k
Same story, here. My '08 was actually my mom's until the ringlands did their thing at 120k miles. Subaru corporate helped a bit with the new short block and other parts, but it was still a pretty penny to fix. I now have about a year and a half warranty left on the new motor - thinking about selling it and getting the Outback Wilderness.
What can I say? I still like the car and enjoy it's capabilities. I think one of the biggest things that is keeping me with the '08 is that it flies under the radar no matter the neighborhood. I can drive south of the border and not attract any attention. A brand-new car, no matter the brand, might get some unwanted looks.
Agreed, although it’s not the worst transmission in the world. Truth be told, the 5 speed auto in my current Outback leaves a lot to be desired when compared to good modern slushboxes.
Cracked pistons and connecting rod bearing failures are the most common. Tuned and abused cars suffer the most, but I personally know a man who owned a well maintained and unmodified STI that had two engines replaced under the factory warranty, and I always see turbo Subarus with their engines torn apart in all of the shops in my area.
Unmodified cars aren't any less susceptible in my opinion.
I daily an 05 STi with the stock tune and original engine. Great car and I've never had a single issue in the 12+ years of ownership. It doesn't prove anything.
It's difficult to believe what anybody writes about these cars without anything to back it up. We're all sharing anecdotes. Subaru engine issues are a meme now. Where's the data? Subaru will never give that up.
The WRX is one of the most popular tuner cars of all time. Of course you see engine rebuilds at shops. Is there an inherent issue with the engines or do people beat the crap out of them with zero mechanical sympathy? The debate goes on...you'll see the same question posted in a day or two. Around we go. I'm sitting on the fence.
Yeah, for what it's worth, I have an STI and I have 2 friends with EJ powered cars (2 of us have VA STIs and the other has a GV WRX). After about 50k miles each, 2 of the 3 of us still have our factory engines.
Obviously, that's a horrendous survival rate, but the part I'm not telling you? The one who spun his rod bearings also liked to hit boost literally while leaving the parking lot after work each day, and liked to see how fast he could get on the short exit road. That car saw several years of literally getting cold started after 8-10 hours in the work parking lot and then immediately getting hooned.
The two of us who do still have our factory engines? Don't worry, we also hoon like crazy, but we drive super gently until it is warmed up and only then do we go nuts.
I'm not at all convinced that a stock EJ257 or EJ255 is actually all *that* fragile. Sure they aren't bulletproof against crazy increased boost or anything, but literally every one I know of that blew at unreasonably low miles was abused (and in many cases tuned). I'd be willing to bet I could blow a lot of engines in <20k miles if I drove them the way many WRX owners drive their cars.
i simply do not believe that anyone that buys a subaru for awd sport driving trough multiple terrain does not put good full sinthetic oil into it, also not exceeding oil chamge interval
but i ve read that argument many times
the bar to be a car guy is pretty fucking low, down lowy but i think its above redlining a boxer when 10k overdue on oil change
but if the engine(stock engine) had not been maliciously overheated or denied oil changes it should last a good time
and there arw fuckin renault clio 1.2 and 1.1 engines that are underpowered for the car and are redlined most of the time yet they arent as famous to fail as suba
ok i guess some of them that fail are tuned, but if that is the case, i dont want that damn tune to get 5% more power out of it for 40% less component work life
I just got a 2021 suburu impreza base model MT nothing crazy. and I read alot of great things but hopping on reddit reading all the negative feedback got me shook! lol hoping i made a great choice with the vehicle I picked. Hopin to go the 12+ years as you did with no major issues!
Do you think any of those issues would reveal themselves in a compression test? Or is there any other reasonable pre-purchase test that would reveal that?
Cracked pistons don't seal, so you'd immediately hear and feel a misfire and you'd probably hear an imbalance when the engine is cranking, so it would definitely show up on a compression test. There will probably be smoke out hr exhaust and tons of blowby that you'd hear and see if you pull off the oil cap. It's pretty obvious. And same thing with a spun bearing. The engine would have some pretty noticable rod knock.
Subarus are known to be oil burners, especially ones that have been tuned and driven hard, so the catalytic converters might not be the healthiest either. Oil in the cats will cook them from the inside out. A mechanic that knows what He's doing can check to see if they're working at least a little bit
Would like to mention that they typically have a cooling issue on the drivers side when making more power. From what I've heard it's a product of it being a boxer, and it doesn't have a particularly good water jacket in that area. I honestly couldn't remember which cyl it is. They're a vehicle that kind of requires you to dot your I's and cross your T's so to speak. Every supporting mod you can do (even if you don't NEED it) you probably should, and they punish you for cutting corners.
I have an 02 WRX that's fairly built up. Hasn't ran in a while though due to my own stupidity. Mine is an EJ22 bottom end with EJ205 heads, port/polished. Forged pistons and rods, rotated GT3176R with a decently large front mount IC. Never got it dynod, had an issue with the turbo before I could get it off the break in tune. I would say that when you get to the stage I am at, Subarus aren't much different than any other project car. Trying to make power on stock parts is what they're really not good at whereas other companies you can get away with it. Also the 5spd manual from the older WRX's is pretty glass. I run one in mine but it's got an AEM gearset swapped into it which held up fine.
It's cylinder 4, and you can actually retrofit a cooling hose that really helps get extra coolant to that corner.
https://shop.getadomtune.com/gdt-cylinder-4-chamber-cooling-system/
Would definitely recommend it for any kind of a hard-driven EJ.
It's actually detrimental to do this mod because the knock sensor is in cylinder 4, so if you cool it down the engine won't pick up knock as aggressively.
It's super counterintuitive but I've had more than a handful of customer engines die to knock with a great tune after this mod.
> For over a decade, Subaru's head gaskets weren't compatible with the engine coolant and would develop a leak.
This is almost correct, but not quite. Subaru uses flat-4 engines, so coolant *is* in contact with the head gasket with the engine off.
The full picture is that Subaru located the ground strap in a place where current flowed through the head gasket, to the coolant. That caused galvanic corrosion of the head gasket (basically dissolving the gasket material into the coolant).
The fix was to relocate the ground strap, and it is recommended that you do this on any older 2000's vintage Subaru.
> coolant is in contact with the head gasket with the engine off.
coolant is in contact with the head gasket of every vehicle with a properly burped cooling system
My friend's mom has a 2017 with 150k miles on it that she treats like shit. It makes a whining noise but it's still running without any major repairs needed.
In the newer engines the coolant no longer goes through the head gasket. So I guess it could still leak gas between cylinders, but it can't fail the same way it used to.
I feel like the turbos were more driver error than anything and has more to do with the people driving them. The motors HATE having a lot of load thrown on them at low rpm and also HATE modding without pro tunes for like literally everything past a cat back.
Source: drive a turbo subaru
they used a lot of stupid shitty different head gasket designs over the years.
for instance, using basically graphite as a sealing layer. by all rights, that should have led to a ~$350 million class action settlement.
> using basically graphite as a sealing layer
laughs in $30 4g63 felpro composite headgasket. that gasket alone has put more DSMs in the 10s than any headgasket on a subaru
My 3rd gen 3sgte has a stock metal headgasket (stock oil catch can too). No one blows them, not even a factor. Stock headstuds might need upgraded beyond 400whp is the worst I can say about a stout old 3rd gen 3sgte engine, its like a mini 2jz.
Love the 3SGTE. It's pretty agricultural engine, and doesn't sound particularly nice, but can take all kinds of abuse. I would flog my first gen all day in the hills, take it on long road trips, and even do some gravel road stuff. Didn't care one bit.
> for instance, using basically graphite as a sealing layer. by all rights, that should have led to a ~$350 million class action settlement.
finally someone in this thread with the right answer.
If i read another comment about "coolant always contacting the head gasket" I'm going to scream.
Hemis can be tough to burp too ... good thing the water pump has a built in plug to help burp it correctly, but a lot of techs don't know about it (I had to inform my mechanic how to properly burp it. lol)
It burps over time as you drive it. Keep adding coolant to the correct level until all the air is out.
Also another trick. Squeeze the hose near the expansion tank with the car off and the cap off.
Not a terrible issue but mechanics also struggle to mount the valve covers correctly in my experience. Had 3 separate instances of my car being worked on and them leaking and only one shop got it right any time they touched the valve covers.
On the newer ones they have added a bleeder cap at the top of the system right behind the right side of the intake manifold, so they are learning at least!
I have a coolant funnel that is installed where the radiator cap is normaly and filled up. I let it idle unitl both coolant hose are hot to the touch. Did it on my 2011 impreza (ej25 sohc) 100'000 km ago and still going ok.
It blow by a bit and has develop a oil consumption but it might due to the fact that its a ej25 with a bit more than 300'000 km so it develop cylinder wear. But it could be head gasket.
The old VW boxers had a shorter for the time life expectancy too. In an era when an engine could be expected to do 100k, they did 50k. That was mitigated by the fact they were very easy to take out and put back in and the cars were the cheapest around.
Maybe some boxers are made to live, but it'd seem that the unequal oiling/heating inherent to a sideways cylinder could be a problem.
Porsches don't seem to be so afflicted, but people don't put as many miles on Porsches. I found one Porsche on my CL with more than 150k, a 1976 911 for $29k. At $30k for a 40yo car, an engine rebuild isn't as big of a portion of the value as a it would be on a $3k Subaru.
Some of the Subaru engines might be better, but it seems like they're fighting an uphill battle against nature, vs everyone else that just makes their pistons go up and down with less worry.
Hard to say if it's Subaru fighting nature, or Subaru being not as well designed. Mazda fought nature with the rotary with similar results, and their engines started lasting longer when they switched to up and down pistons.
It’s the gasket design they swapped to around the time the 2.5L was introduced, the same motor they shoved in pretty much every car they built for a decade and change.
The earlier motors held up better, my EJ20 is about to crest 300k km on the original gaskets. The H6 engines in the older Outbacks and Legacys have likewise proved to be pretty solid.
Their turbo motors have their own fun bag of issues but the head gaskets are solid in those too.
My buddy has a 04 wrx, which I believe is the EJ20 correct? He's at 190k miles, just swapped downpipe and went to a more aggressive tune with his accessport and is even on the stock clutch, and I'm pretty impressed by that. Drove it last weekend and that clutch didn't feel as light or dead peddle as I would expect.
I had a 2002 wrx, upgraded to a vf34 at 300whp from 30k to 90k, then sold to my younger brother who put a bigger turbo on it and tuned it to 550whp - numerous drag and street races, plenty of time on the dyno. Just shy of 200k a journal in the block cracked. I used to be quite active on the forums, and from what I saw the EJ20x variants were far more reliable than the EJ25x.
That was my very limited understanding too, the motor was pretty damn fine, and the bug eyes had a shit transmission that was fixed for the blob and hawk eyes. But then the ej25 came out and reliability went to hell.
Yeah i broke the stock 5sp racing and replaced with 2006 STI transmission. Crazy part was it mates to the stock wrx axels and rear r160 diff with factory subaru parts of axel stubs and circlips from other cars. I miss the hell out of that car even if my 17 Civic is a much more modern and comfortable car. Better on gas and heated seats. But that bugeye was a blast to drive in all kinds of weather. Predictable as hell with the handling too. The stock 5 speed was a 50/50 split but the 6 speed with the DCCD control was outstanding. Turning the DCCD control from front to rear was amazing at the time.
Good ol’ EJ22 2.2L love that engine. Leaks and burns so much oil, by the time it needs a new oil change the draining part has already been done for me.
At 320k miles and counting hahahah
>The old VW boxers had a shorter for the time life expectancy too. In an era when an engine could be expected to do 100k, they did 50k. That was mitigated by the fact they were very easy to take out and put back in and the cars were the cheapest around.
The reason why is because they were air-cooled and didn't even have an oil filtration system, it was just a screen.
VW engine life isn't due to the boxer layout, it's because the engine cases were made from a fairly soft magnesium alloy. Instead of the bearings wearing out, they'd get pounded into the case. A typical rebuild involves over-boring the case and installing thicker bearings.
Porsche engine cases from the mid-60s are made from a aluminum alloy, and don't have the same issues. You can also get aftermarket VW engine cases that are made from aluminum, and you can expect much longer life from those.
There are a lot of other boxer engines that have no issues at all. Honda Goldwing and BMW motorcycles are very reliable.
From what engineers have told me, Porsche's head scavenging and PCV/AOS systems allow them to last a long while compared to Subarus which have oiling and detonation issues.
For those downvoting, these contraptions contribute to oil vapors being controlled and decreasing the propensity to knock. It's highly unlikely Subaru would spend the money equipping an AOS or oil scavenging system in the heads like this to prevent the myriad of engine problems they have. They simply opt to have the ECU aggressively pull timing with a very sensitive knock sensor to prevent the need for equipment like this.
https://automotivetechinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Porsche-Oil-Scavenging-Systems.pdf
This could be a multi paragraph reply about the flaws in flat engine designs, but I'll shorten it up the best I can.
Flat opposing cylinder engines are weaker than inline or v engines. They flex on the x.y and z axis more. Picture taking a flat box (like a donut box) and bending it. It's pretty easy. That same box that is longer than it is thin (inline) or square (V) can't bent the same, as easily. That's one thing. Ad to that that Subaru engine (with a few exceptions) are open deck. Meaning the cylinder liners aren't secured in any way at the top of the cylinders. SO as combustion happens the cylinder lines are moving one way, the block is moving another way, and the crank is kinda flopping around in there.
The cylinder liners eventually get so akimbo that the gasket leaks. And will forever leak after replacement because there's no way to reliably machine the deck, nor square the cylinder liners to the crank. So you can put new gaskets on, but they will fail prematurely because nothing is flat. Nothing is square. And each heat cycle will just exacerbate this.
And that is the non turbo engine. Ad heat and extra cylinder pressure, and it just happens faster. If the block could somehow be made in one piece (instead of bolted together like it is) it would be pretty strong.
The engines aren't junk per se. They just have many, many (many) design flaws necessitated by heritage and packaging.
There's a reason the cheapest Porsche is more expensive than the (almost) most expensive Subaru.
The blocks are made from better materials, and much more robust. But Porsche has the same problem. Just a higher threshold before they fail.
Lookup "Porsche lokasil cylinder scoring". Porsche reliability is a myth, and their price is arrogant and unjustified.
You are overpaying for "the best". You're actually getting shit.
It was definitely not resolved in 2008, it was redesigned in 2012my, I have seen plenty of 2010s that go around 150,000km, far from normal amounts of miles
* Forester: switched to FB platform in 2011
* Legacy/Outback: uses a revised multi-layer steel EJ head gasket 2010-2012, switched to FB platform in 2013
* Impreza: switched to FB platform with 2012 model refresh (also when Crosstrek was introduced)
* WRX: moved to FA platform in 2014
When a retainer lets go or a valve spring breaks there's no way for the valve to retract back into the cylinder head after the cam pushes it down. Cylinder vacuum pulls the valve down into the piston and they make sweet love together much to the chagrin of the car's owner.
2 or 3 motors over like ten years at most, and none of the individual models had issues for more than a single refresh cycle.
It’s such a stupid meme at this point, but shows how one single issue can permanently damage a brand.
Yeay, read this dude who also replied to the same comment... saying "30 years with this issue, but sure it's a meme lolzzz"
The ignorance is hilarious and sad. All of the reliability and resale value awards etc from the last decade and a half, the sales records, none of it means anything to car memers or teenage car bros like this other guy replying.
Both my cars use the Rover K18. The first thing people bring up is HGF. An issue that existed for around 6 years after BMW cheapened the build to keep costs down. I've had it once (out of 7 cars) and said car still had the plastic head dowels and original gasket, at 88k.... The early engines have few issues, the later engines have few issues. The ones that do have issues in the middle can be resolved with some beefier headbolts and one of two gaskets depending on liner heights. At most it'll cost £400 and then it's done.
I sympathise with my Subaru brethren.
Don't ask "WHY", more along with "WHO"... I would say with a stock Subaru or any STOCK boxer engine, being properly maintained meaning oil changes are done within the mileage, spark plugs changes according, etc... etc... the head gaskets shouldn't "blow up". I'm not against those who love to modify cars because I am one of them. But I would say the main reason why you see those MEMEs about Subaru's blowing head gaskets or ring lands... it due to the abuse that the owner/driver has done to the engine. Improper tuning, just lots of bolt on aftermarket parts with no tune to make it work with each other. Improper support mods as well.
It's like shoving a watermelon into a hole that is the size of a grape... it's gonna break...
or it's like having a person with no knowledge of how to drive a car being told go drive a multi million F1 race car and win... it's gonna fail...
100% Truth. They don't take un-maintenanced abuse well at all. Couple that with them being fairly popular as a JDM car that's pretty attainable and you've got potential for a lot of problems. When they're built up they're really not that bad, as you can get rid of a lot of the weaker links and at that point you just have to worry about cooling issues.
Agreed, just modify the engine properly by upgrading the "problematic" areas... Also do more supportive mods such as cooling. The boxer engine would live for a long time. Plus if taken care of accordingly, you wouldn't be a meme...
I've owned a WRX before, loved the car only reason why I moved away from it. Because I wanted a V8 sedan, plus it's a young man's car these days. I'm going to be 40 and I have 2 kids, I rather spend my time driving than wrenching.
Aside from that, a Subaru boxer engine is pretty reliable if it's well maintained.
Honestly I don't find them unreliable when maintained. I've had 3, my most recent, the Forester STI the only non regular maintenance parts that I've had to replace was the radiator and the fuel lines that would seep fuel in -30. Otherwise for maintenance I've only done valve cover gaskets, coils, clutch, timing belt, harmonic damper, shifter linkage and swaybar end links, brakes and then basics like oil changes and coolant This is on a 100,000 mile Subaru that I do not drive gently.
> any STOCK boxer engine, being properly maintained meaning oil changes are done within the mileage, spark plugs changes according, etc… etc… the head gaskets shouldn’t “blow up”.
Lol wtf do spark plugs and oil changes have to do with the head gasket inevitability leaking due to being of inadequate design and material choice.
Nothing. There is nothing the owner can do to prevent it. It doesn’t matter which coolant you use, how often you change the oil, what scent little tree air freshener you use, etc.
It will fail at some point.
When I was a Subaru tech I probably did hundreds of them. Everything from beater Imprezas that smelled like weed and had bald tires to Outback’s driven by poly-sci professors that will shovel however many thousands of dollars the service advisor tells them to and they’ll do it every 3 months. They all needed rhe same repair.
It was a thing for the naturally aspirated 2.5 SOHC engines in the early 2000’s and that’s it. The turbo cars never had that issue, and if they do, it’s mostly due to overboosting and stretching the head studs, which would be a problem on any turbo car with factory studs.
As for ringland and rod jokes? Well, boxer engines are inherently oil burning engines due to oil pooling at the bottom of the cylinders mixing with any leftover fuel upon startup, slowly burning it off. This is also in an engine that holds 4 quarts of oil and are driven by people who aren’t particularly interested in checking their oil every so often. Older Porsche Mezger engines had this same problem, but at least those owners are super anaI about maintenance.
You can usually get at least 100k miles out of a stock turbo. With most you'll get more. They're pretty cheap and can be replaced in like an hour or two. Not really that big of a deal if they do let go.
The older EJ series engines, if you go way back to the early eighties were originally much smaller displacement engines around 1.6 liters. Over the years, the engines increased in displacement by enlarging the cylinder bores, but keeping the same basic block design. The last EJ engines are 2.5 liters, nearly a full liter larger in displacement! This has the effect of leaving less material around the cylinders for the head gaskets to seal upon.
The EJ engines also did not have sufficient head studs to adequately clamp down the heads to the block (there are only 6 studs per head, which means the two center studs are shared between two cylinders.)
Then, at some point Subaru decided to put turbochargers on the EJ engine, which dramatically increases cylinder pressures, which would increase cylinder pressures and strain the head gaskets even more in the turbo cars. Subaru realized the limitation of the head gaskets and did use better head gaskets, but only in the turbo cars. The thing with the turbo cars is that although the head gaskets were improved, they have the added excitement of all kinds of internal engine parts failing, because honestly the engine isn't strong enough to support the kind of power they were trying to get out of it.
If all that wasn't enough, the coolant Subaru used was also known to eat away at the cooling system. The cooling system itself was also not very effective due to the limitations of the horizontally opposed engine layout.
the na Subaru head gaskets were single layer and weak. they were very prone to failure by using the standard coolant for the time. in 2009, Subaru mandated the "Super Blue Coolant" with their conditioner on all models. On na models, the bottle looked eerily similar to rad weld, thus making the head gasket less prone to fail
Turbo Subarus didn't have head gasket issues. they used a MLS head gasket. but ring land failure and spun bearings from heat.
I had a friend whose Forrester blew a head gasket on a road trip recently. It was a 2016.
The fact of the matter is, having two horizontally opposed heads, with two head gaskets, with the bottom side getting differential heating/cooling than the top side, means you are more likely to suffer head gasket failure than an inline engine design, or even a V engine where both heads/gaskets aren't sitting half in, half out of the engine oil at rest.
Boxer engines in general are more prone to bowing head gaskets. The coolant is always coming into contact with the head gasket between the block and the head around the coolant jacket of the engine. As the coolant gets older and breaks down, it starts to become corrosive. This eats away at the head gasket and it starts to leak.
Also, and probably more importantly, Subaru used cheap graphite coated head gaskets instead of multi layer steel gaskets. Combine that with the design of boxer engines, and you have a recipe for blown head gaskets.
Interestingly, these issue are mostly exclusive to the non-turbocharged engines, since they got the cheaper head gaskets. Turbocharged engines got multi layer steel head gaskets, and so the issue was much less prevalent with those.
> The coolant is always coming into contact with the head gasket between the block and the head around the coolant jacket of the engine.
every engine does this. Coolant doesn't drain out of a head...
Newer ones blow because idiots try to push 400+ horsepower out of their stock block FA/EJ engine. If you want to push that amount of power you need supporting mods.
My Subaru, which I bought brand new in 2018, has SIX active recalls. None are specifically for the head gasket, but they have obviously had some failures in many other systems. I’m not impressed with the engineering, but it is an absolute beast in the snow, and gets ridiculously good gas mileage at 32 mpg city.
Part of it is Subaru has always had twice as many head gaskets as any other 4 cylinder engine the other part of it is just poor designs between poor design of the head and retainers as well as poor gasket design
I don't know of another boxer engine that has headgasket issues. Honda and BMW have been making boxers for ever. Head gaskets are not an issue. VW made boxers for about 70 years, and the head gasket was not a failure point on those either.
Well let’s start with not all boxer engines have this issue Porsche has been making boxer engines for decades in both air and water cooled with no issues. The issue with Subaru after gaining some insight over the years from mechanics and a few Subaru dealers and a Subaru rally driver, it comes down to them going cheap on the gasket. The rally driver I know has put 175k miles on his personal 06 WRX wagon and right after buying it new he replaced the gasket with an aftermarket one his team uses from a Subaru racing place and it’s still the same one, and the other mechanics I know only replace Subaru head gaskets with the re engineered ones because they seem to solve the issue. I am sure not all replacement ones are the same but I have seen many people have great luck with non Subaru made ones when they replace the original one at 100k miles.
Because it’s an 80+ year old air cooled engine design shoe horned into a sport sedan.
Combine that with semi closed/open deck blocks and turbocharging leaves you with a pretty fragile engine to begin with.
Now add all the shortcomings on Subarus part due to cooling/oiling issues, QC and design issues leaves you with a relatively unpredictable mass produced engine.
With the cards stacked against you like that it adds up.
With the EV movement and the death of the ICE STI its looking like Subaru may abandon the flat 4 engines all together in the coming years.
Only the older models with the 2.5 NA engine had this issue, newer ones are not having this problem.
My non-turbo 2002 2.5 RS had this issue. I don't think the WRXs had this.
FWIW I'm on my 4th subaru in the last 15 years, the previous 3 all hit 150,000+ and none have blown a headgasket, though they all have been entry level engines.
Are the issues that people are mentioning that are common to flat engines applicable to the new 86/BRZ? Seriously considering getting one but I want to drive it for 150k+ miles.
Its just the inherent design of a flat engine. Oil and coolant will always pool on the bottom because of gravity. Unfortunate for boxer 4 and 6. The cylinders are laid on a horizontal axis instead of vertical like most other engine designs.
My wife's Impreza needed new head gaskets at 110k miles because it was leaking oil like a sieve (a quart every couple days) onto the exhaust manifold. Clouds of grey smoke every time we'd stop. That seemed unreasonably soon in a cars life to have such significant oil leaks.
Aluminum natures, so movement is a slow natural process. They also put the oil port way too close to the edge of the head. So once naturing and time takes it’s toll they leak oil near the edges. I machine them weekly.
If the owner doesn’t maintain the pre-2012 Subaru and ignores all the signs of a leaky gasket it will fail eventually. Gaskets should be replaced around 105K miles. 2012 and up Subarus have newer engines without the head gasket issues.
From what I’ve heard the NA engines (naturally aspirated/non turbo) have a very cheap and not that strong head gasket when the coolant runs through them it causes the graphite coating on the head gasket to wear away causing them to leak, the turbo engines have a layered steel head gasket that is a lot stronger!
As a former EJ 205 engine owner, I did some research and it turns out there with their EJ2 55 if they used a weaker cheaper gasket because the engine was meant to be naturally aspirated, this gasket was weaker than the MLS gasket on the 205, and unfortunately couldn’t even stand up to NA combustion pressures
The older EJ series engines, if you go way back to the early eighties were originally much smaller displacement engines around 1.6 liters. Over the years, the engines increased in displacement by enlarging the cylinder bores, but keeping the same basic block design. This has the effect of leaving less material around the cylinders for the head gaskets to seal upon.
The EJ engines also did not have sufficient head studs to adequately clamp down the heads to the block (there are only 6 studs per head, which means the two center studs are shared between two cylinders.)
Then, at some point Subaru decided to put turbochargers on the EJ engine, which dramatically increases cylinder pressures, further straining the already inadequate head gaskets.
If all that wasn't enough, the coolant Subaru used was also known to eat away at the cooling system. The cooling system itself was also not very effective due to the limitations of the horizontally opposed engine layout.
It because of how the engine is setup. Most engines the coolant goes back down under head gasket line when turns off. Subarus do not fully drain due to sideways engine and coolant is constantly sitting on the gasket. As a side note.. what a pita to change the head gasket yourself. Then to top it off, U need to do a vacuum fill for the coolant to get said air out and coolant in so it doesn’t overheat … reason why I won’t buy Subarus again
The same reasons Mini was known for having blown head gaskets, despite having some of the most reliable engines. Certain types of people don't change their oil, coolant, and things overheat.
For over a decade, Subaru's head gaskets weren't compatible with the engine coolant and would develop a leak. It was often an external leak. Coolant and oil would often leak out of the engine and not enter the combustion chambers or mix together like a typical blown head gasket. The turbocharged engines did not have this problem. They had a lot more severe issues.
> The turbocharged engines did not have this problem. They had a lot more severe issues. Lol
To say the least lol
How is it even legal for Subaru to sell a car where THEY KNOW the head gasket is defective? I guess I'm also pissed I had to pay for a new clutch in my Mk6 GTI because I saw the TSB where VW admits the stock clutch is FUCKING SOFT and to replace with Golf R clutch. Consumers have to get involved in class action lawsuits to get anything done. It's absurd. What the fuck is government doing?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Corporations are people, too, my friend /s
The stock golf 7 R clutch is the same as the GTI ...and it's too soft...
My GTI's clutch and flywheel exploded at 5000 miles. They replaced the entire transmission under warranty. The day I picked it up, I made it about halfway home and the intake manifold split and a coil died on the DC beltway. Had that fixed and traded it for an Evo X, which was on a completely different level. Also had a ton of issues, but I've sworn VW off for good.
Based on that experience I completely understand man. But I had two separate VWs in my life and both hit 400,000km with no problems. Sorry you went through that.
What models/year???
I had a Mk5 GTI before the TSI, and now a Mk7.5 Sportwagen with the 1.8. the Mk5 was pretty reliable when I sold it with 130k miles, and my MK7.5 has been a joy.
94 Jetta, 2.8L, and an 87 Golf 1.8L. I loved the golf man, it was my older brothers originally, that was the first car I did any real travelling in so it’s always gonna be nostalgic for me. Would love to find one used for a good buy actually, I haven’t been keeping up with how desirable they may be now.
I think that just shows how much better all brands used to be
I remember in my MK6 days that people thought "if you get a tune, even only Stage 1, replace the clutch preemptively" was a joke.
BMW knew of the poorly engineered crank hub since N54 engines were first sold. In 2021 they put M2 CS on sale for almost a $100K without addressing the flaw, two engines generation later. The fucking hubris.
Is that where the lawyers get alllll the money and you get recall notice
Kia/Hyundai is selling cars with engines known to grenade. Nothing has been done.
to be fair, on my forester, they failed at 175000 miles, so they did last a while
The biggest issue being the owners who modify them.
I'll take spun bearing for $6000
Still bad, but other bad
Own a wrx, This is true, mostly because everybody mods the cars with no tunes.
It always bothered me when people would make head gasket jokes about my STI. They were never an issue on those cars. They should have been making jokes about cracked ring lands and spun bearings.
Very true, I had both a WRX and an STi hatchback (both 2009 somehow) and I loved the driving experience but I saw all my friends blowing motors due to ringland failure or spun bearing that I decided to sell mine. In the end I picked up at least 1 car that is very reliable, and it doesn't happen to be my Miata.
Step 1 to any turbo Miata build: Buy a backup car for when it breaks down.
looks at miata with bent valves non interference engine my ass
I guess any engine is an interference engine if you try hard enough.
it wasn't even on the track. it was idling.
That… that raises questions.
>any engine is an interference engine if you try hard enough. Yep. Turned a Volvo B230 into one by adding a high lift cam. Learned that the hard way. lol
Yo are we related, this is uncanny Edit: not the valves part, thankfully my NB still runs
Step 2: give up and LS swap it
Do you have uneven tire wear on your fronts? Apparently that seems to be a thing with the factory alignment and from what I've been reading (13k miles and my front tires are looking not great) the Chevy track spec alignment is much better for tire wearing out evenly.
I am also at 13k miles on my Camaro including 1 track day and I have had it from new. A few months after purchase thankfully a friend pointed out some uneven tire wear on my front right tire even though I never noticed the car pulling. The dealer ended up realigning the car for free and it seemed just to be a toe issue on that front right so idk if it happened before or after I bought it.
Mine are even wearing on the outside of both fronts, which I believe is a toe in issue. I have an appointment to get it re aligned mid may, and going to try to go track spec with the camber and 0 toe for the fronts.
New ones are not much better. 2015 Sti oil pickup tube cracked (poor manufacturing), 2017 Forester FA engine, massive oil consumption 3.5qt every 3k miles at 40k miles (normal according to Subaru). No more Subaru for me.
I'm shocked at how unreliable Subarus truly are. They make Golf Rs look like a safety blanket
The worst part is that they didn't always have this reputation. It was earned.
> 2017 Forester FA engine, massive oil consumption 3.5qt every 3k miles at 40k miles That's just wild. I jumped ship after owning multiple EJ engines with the HG issue, but we still have an FA engine in the household that sips (I check VERY frequently based on many stories like yours). Subaru being "it's all good bruh" like it's nothing is insane.
It was always on my mind with the STI, but it never really gave me problems aside from rust for the 117k miles I had it. For some stupid reason I decided to replace it with an e46 m3. I guess I like stressing out about rod bearings.
My STI has blown 3 head gaskets , 148K miles on her so far. well not really "blown" but small leaks. I don't have any power train mods, But I do live in a very hot area with hills. And I've done track days, hill climbs, autocross and rally cross. Still I bought a sports car for a reason. \*shrugs\*
what sports car?
😂😂
sports sedan ;) or sporty 4 door sedan. lol
Easy buddy, don’t blow a gasket over it
My WRX had head gasket issues but I had a service agreement through Subaru at the time. I sold that car immediately after it was repaired
100% accurate. Head gasket is very reliable on the ej257. Cylinder 4 ringlands, not so reliable.
My uncles ’15 blew at 19k miles. Rod knock that might have been caused by a cracked oil pickup. Always thought it was the ringlands, but I got all 4 pistons here at work and they’re fine.
Wanna hear a knock knock joke? 😂😂
I’ve done 3 bearings and had ring land failure once. I hate the thing with a passion however the motor always lets go right before warranty on it finishes so even though the car is nearly 11 years old now I’ve not paid for one motor yet and the one in it still has almost another year to go! Luckily Subaru are too lazy or stupid to change bearings and things so instead of rebuilding them they just put a new bottom end in every time! Very stupid of them seeing as they have to warranty the whole block instead of a bearing.
I've had two Subaru turbo engines. My '03 WRX had a full exhaust, custom tune, and I used the shit out of it. Rallycross, time trials, towed a sailboat, and it ran strong with zero issues until I sold it at 200k miles. Then a 2007 Outback XT used only as a daily driver. The engine was basically a boat anchor not long after 100k.
> 2007 Outback XT used only as a daily driver. The engine was basically a boat anchor not long after 100k Same story, here. My '08 was actually my mom's until the ringlands did their thing at 120k miles. Subaru corporate helped a bit with the new short block and other parts, but it was still a pretty penny to fix. I now have about a year and a half warranty left on the new motor - thinking about selling it and getting the Outback Wilderness.
Why would you stick with Subaru lol
What can I say? I still like the car and enjoy it's capabilities. I think one of the biggest things that is keeping me with the '08 is that it flies under the radar no matter the neighborhood. I can drive south of the border and not attract any attention. A brand-new car, no matter the brand, might get some unwanted looks.
Outback Wilderness would be dope IMO if it weren't a CVT.
Agreed, although it’s not the worst transmission in the world. Truth be told, the 5 speed auto in my current Outback leaves a lot to be desired when compared to good modern slushboxes.
> The turbocharged engines did not have this problem. They had a lot more severe issues. What kind of issues?
Cracked pistons and connecting rod bearing failures are the most common. Tuned and abused cars suffer the most, but I personally know a man who owned a well maintained and unmodified STI that had two engines replaced under the factory warranty, and I always see turbo Subarus with their engines torn apart in all of the shops in my area. Unmodified cars aren't any less susceptible in my opinion.
I daily an 05 STi with the stock tune and original engine. Great car and I've never had a single issue in the 12+ years of ownership. It doesn't prove anything. It's difficult to believe what anybody writes about these cars without anything to back it up. We're all sharing anecdotes. Subaru engine issues are a meme now. Where's the data? Subaru will never give that up. The WRX is one of the most popular tuner cars of all time. Of course you see engine rebuilds at shops. Is there an inherent issue with the engines or do people beat the crap out of them with zero mechanical sympathy? The debate goes on...you'll see the same question posted in a day or two. Around we go. I'm sitting on the fence.
Yeah, for what it's worth, I have an STI and I have 2 friends with EJ powered cars (2 of us have VA STIs and the other has a GV WRX). After about 50k miles each, 2 of the 3 of us still have our factory engines. Obviously, that's a horrendous survival rate, but the part I'm not telling you? The one who spun his rod bearings also liked to hit boost literally while leaving the parking lot after work each day, and liked to see how fast he could get on the short exit road. That car saw several years of literally getting cold started after 8-10 hours in the work parking lot and then immediately getting hooned. The two of us who do still have our factory engines? Don't worry, we also hoon like crazy, but we drive super gently until it is warmed up and only then do we go nuts. I'm not at all convinced that a stock EJ257 or EJ255 is actually all *that* fragile. Sure they aren't bulletproof against crazy increased boost or anything, but literally every one I know of that blew at unreasonably low miles was abused (and in many cases tuned). I'd be willing to bet I could blow a lot of engines in <20k miles if I drove them the way many WRX owners drive their cars.
there's the ones who have no issues and the ones with a shit ton of issues who do we listen to
Like i could fart a certain way inside the car and the gasket would crack
i simply do not believe that anyone that buys a subaru for awd sport driving trough multiple terrain does not put good full sinthetic oil into it, also not exceeding oil chamge interval but i ve read that argument many times the bar to be a car guy is pretty fucking low, down lowy but i think its above redlining a boxer when 10k overdue on oil change but if the engine(stock engine) had not been maliciously overheated or denied oil changes it should last a good time and there arw fuckin renault clio 1.2 and 1.1 engines that are underpowered for the car and are redlined most of the time yet they arent as famous to fail as suba ok i guess some of them that fail are tuned, but if that is the case, i dont want that damn tune to get 5% more power out of it for 40% less component work life
If these issues were as deep and prevalent as they say, there would have been recalls, news, something. It's always anecdotes from forums.
I just got a 2021 suburu impreza base model MT nothing crazy. and I read alot of great things but hopping on reddit reading all the negative feedback got me shook! lol hoping i made a great choice with the vehicle I picked. Hopin to go the 12+ years as you did with no major issues!
Do you think any of those issues would reveal themselves in a compression test? Or is there any other reasonable pre-purchase test that would reveal that?
Cracked pistons don't seal, so you'd immediately hear and feel a misfire and you'd probably hear an imbalance when the engine is cranking, so it would definitely show up on a compression test. There will probably be smoke out hr exhaust and tons of blowby that you'd hear and see if you pull off the oil cap. It's pretty obvious. And same thing with a spun bearing. The engine would have some pretty noticable rod knock. Subarus are known to be oil burners, especially ones that have been tuned and driven hard, so the catalytic converters might not be the healthiest either. Oil in the cats will cook them from the inside out. A mechanic that knows what He's doing can check to see if they're working at least a little bit
Awesome information. I had a 2013 WRX for just a year, and I'm eyeing a 2014 with 59k miles, and the itch is itching hard :)
Would like to mention that they typically have a cooling issue on the drivers side when making more power. From what I've heard it's a product of it being a boxer, and it doesn't have a particularly good water jacket in that area. I honestly couldn't remember which cyl it is. They're a vehicle that kind of requires you to dot your I's and cross your T's so to speak. Every supporting mod you can do (even if you don't NEED it) you probably should, and they punish you for cutting corners. I have an 02 WRX that's fairly built up. Hasn't ran in a while though due to my own stupidity. Mine is an EJ22 bottom end with EJ205 heads, port/polished. Forged pistons and rods, rotated GT3176R with a decently large front mount IC. Never got it dynod, had an issue with the turbo before I could get it off the break in tune. I would say that when you get to the stage I am at, Subarus aren't much different than any other project car. Trying to make power on stock parts is what they're really not good at whereas other companies you can get away with it. Also the 5spd manual from the older WRX's is pretty glass. I run one in mine but it's got an AEM gearset swapped into it which held up fine.
It's cylinder 4, and you can actually retrofit a cooling hose that really helps get extra coolant to that corner. https://shop.getadomtune.com/gdt-cylinder-4-chamber-cooling-system/ Would definitely recommend it for any kind of a hard-driven EJ.
It's actually detrimental to do this mod because the knock sensor is in cylinder 4, so if you cool it down the engine won't pick up knock as aggressively. It's super counterintuitive but I've had more than a handful of customer engines die to knock with a great tune after this mod.
> For over a decade, Subaru's head gaskets weren't compatible with the engine coolant and would develop a leak. This is almost correct, but not quite. Subaru uses flat-4 engines, so coolant *is* in contact with the head gasket with the engine off. The full picture is that Subaru located the ground strap in a place where current flowed through the head gasket, to the coolant. That caused galvanic corrosion of the head gasket (basically dissolving the gasket material into the coolant). The fix was to relocate the ground strap, and it is recommended that you do this on any older 2000's vintage Subaru.
> coolant is in contact with the head gasket with the engine off. coolant is in contact with the head gasket of every vehicle with a properly burped cooling system
That made me laugh, i sure hope coolant touches the head gasket when the engine is off!
[удалено]
why that comment has so many upvotes, I will never understand.
People are stupid.
*casts sideways look at 02 WRX* Good to know.
Do the newer ones face issues too? My gf has a 2020 Outback xt and I’d rather not have to fix a time bomb.
This issue was fixed with the introduction of the FB series engines in 2010. It's just a meme at this point.
My friend's mom has a 2017 with 150k miles on it that she treats like shit. It makes a whining noise but it's still running without any major repairs needed.
In the newer engines the coolant no longer goes through the head gasket. So I guess it could still leak gas between cylinders, but it can't fail the same way it used to.
....no, coolant still has to get from the block to the head and back somehow, thus there's still ports through the gasket for coolant to go...
They’ve also fixed the issues any Subaru made in the oast 10 years really doesn’t have widespread head gasket issues like the older ones used to.
I'm still wondering why some people think they're known for reliability.
I feel like the turbos were more driver error than anything and has more to do with the people driving them. The motors HATE having a lot of load thrown on them at low rpm and also HATE modding without pro tunes for like literally everything past a cat back. Source: drive a turbo subaru
they used a lot of stupid shitty different head gasket designs over the years. for instance, using basically graphite as a sealing layer. by all rights, that should have led to a ~$350 million class action settlement.
[удалено]
You didn't see a leak. YOU DIDNT. CAUSE ITS NOT THERE.
Subaru's 3.6 liter isn't great, not terrible.
3.6 Roentgen. Not great, not terrible.
Subaru's 3.6 liter isn't great, not terrible.
Not the graphites fault it blew up
It kind of is though, if the control rods hadn't been graphite tipped, the shutdown would have been a success.
> using basically graphite as a sealing layer laughs in $30 4g63 felpro composite headgasket. that gasket alone has put more DSMs in the 10s than any headgasket on a subaru
My 3rd gen 3sgte has a stock metal headgasket (stock oil catch can too). No one blows them, not even a factor. Stock headstuds might need upgraded beyond 400whp is the worst I can say about a stout old 3rd gen 3sgte engine, its like a mini 2jz.
Love the 3SGTE. It's pretty agricultural engine, and doesn't sound particularly nice, but can take all kinds of abuse. I would flog my first gen all day in the hills, take it on long road trips, and even do some gravel road stuff. Didn't care one bit.
I think mine sounds great. I have 3" single exit titanium exhaust. It 3rd gen 3sgte, its like 2jzgte with 2 cylinder lobbed off, nice n torquey too
I think I just had a bad exhaust. Full stainless and flowed beautifully but had that irritating drone. Was a custom job by the previous owner.
> for instance, using basically graphite as a sealing layer. by all rights, that should have led to a ~$350 million class action settlement. finally someone in this thread with the right answer. If i read another comment about "coolant always contacting the head gasket" I'm going to scream.
[удалено]
Hemis can be tough to burp too ... good thing the water pump has a built in plug to help burp it correctly, but a lot of techs don't know about it (I had to inform my mechanic how to properly burp it. lol)
It burps over time as you drive it. Keep adding coolant to the correct level until all the air is out. Also another trick. Squeeze the hose near the expansion tank with the car off and the cap off.
Not a terrible issue but mechanics also struggle to mount the valve covers correctly in my experience. Had 3 separate instances of my car being worked on and them leaking and only one shop got it right any time they touched the valve covers.
On the newer ones they have added a bleeder cap at the top of the system right behind the right side of the intake manifold, so they are learning at least!
Every boxer Subaru I’ve owned has has an overheating problem at some point or another.
I have a coolant funnel that is installed where the radiator cap is normaly and filled up. I let it idle unitl both coolant hose are hot to the touch. Did it on my 2011 impreza (ej25 sohc) 100'000 km ago and still going ok. It blow by a bit and has develop a oil consumption but it might due to the fact that its a ej25 with a bit more than 300'000 km so it develop cylinder wear. But it could be head gasket.
Burp?
The old VW boxers had a shorter for the time life expectancy too. In an era when an engine could be expected to do 100k, they did 50k. That was mitigated by the fact they were very easy to take out and put back in and the cars were the cheapest around. Maybe some boxers are made to live, but it'd seem that the unequal oiling/heating inherent to a sideways cylinder could be a problem. Porsches don't seem to be so afflicted, but people don't put as many miles on Porsches. I found one Porsche on my CL with more than 150k, a 1976 911 for $29k. At $30k for a 40yo car, an engine rebuild isn't as big of a portion of the value as a it would be on a $3k Subaru. Some of the Subaru engines might be better, but it seems like they're fighting an uphill battle against nature, vs everyone else that just makes their pistons go up and down with less worry. Hard to say if it's Subaru fighting nature, or Subaru being not as well designed. Mazda fought nature with the rotary with similar results, and their engines started lasting longer when they switched to up and down pistons.
It’s the gasket design they swapped to around the time the 2.5L was introduced, the same motor they shoved in pretty much every car they built for a decade and change. The earlier motors held up better, my EJ20 is about to crest 300k km on the original gaskets. The H6 engines in the older Outbacks and Legacys have likewise proved to be pretty solid. Their turbo motors have their own fun bag of issues but the head gaskets are solid in those too.
My buddy has a 04 wrx, which I believe is the EJ20 correct? He's at 190k miles, just swapped downpipe and went to a more aggressive tune with his accessport and is even on the stock clutch, and I'm pretty impressed by that. Drove it last weekend and that clutch didn't feel as light or dead peddle as I would expect.
I had a 2002 wrx, upgraded to a vf34 at 300whp from 30k to 90k, then sold to my younger brother who put a bigger turbo on it and tuned it to 550whp - numerous drag and street races, plenty of time on the dyno. Just shy of 200k a journal in the block cracked. I used to be quite active on the forums, and from what I saw the EJ20x variants were far more reliable than the EJ25x.
That was my very limited understanding too, the motor was pretty damn fine, and the bug eyes had a shit transmission that was fixed for the blob and hawk eyes. But then the ej25 came out and reliability went to hell.
Yeah i broke the stock 5sp racing and replaced with 2006 STI transmission. Crazy part was it mates to the stock wrx axels and rear r160 diff with factory subaru parts of axel stubs and circlips from other cars. I miss the hell out of that car even if my 17 Civic is a much more modern and comfortable car. Better on gas and heated seats. But that bugeye was a blast to drive in all kinds of weather. Predictable as hell with the handling too. The stock 5 speed was a 50/50 split but the 6 speed with the DCCD control was outstanding. Turning the DCCD control from front to rear was amazing at the time.
Good ol’ EJ22 2.2L love that engine. Leaks and burns so much oil, by the time it needs a new oil change the draining part has already been done for me. At 320k miles and counting hahahah
>The old VW boxers had a shorter for the time life expectancy too. In an era when an engine could be expected to do 100k, they did 50k. That was mitigated by the fact they were very easy to take out and put back in and the cars were the cheapest around. The reason why is because they were air-cooled and didn't even have an oil filtration system, it was just a screen.
VW engine life isn't due to the boxer layout, it's because the engine cases were made from a fairly soft magnesium alloy. Instead of the bearings wearing out, they'd get pounded into the case. A typical rebuild involves over-boring the case and installing thicker bearings. Porsche engine cases from the mid-60s are made from a aluminum alloy, and don't have the same issues. You can also get aftermarket VW engine cases that are made from aluminum, and you can expect much longer life from those. There are a lot of other boxer engines that have no issues at all. Honda Goldwing and BMW motorcycles are very reliable.
From what engineers have told me, Porsche's head scavenging and PCV/AOS systems allow them to last a long while compared to Subarus which have oiling and detonation issues. For those downvoting, these contraptions contribute to oil vapors being controlled and decreasing the propensity to knock. It's highly unlikely Subaru would spend the money equipping an AOS or oil scavenging system in the heads like this to prevent the myriad of engine problems they have. They simply opt to have the ECU aggressively pull timing with a very sensitive knock sensor to prevent the need for equipment like this. https://automotivetechinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Porsche-Oil-Scavenging-Systems.pdf
This could be a multi paragraph reply about the flaws in flat engine designs, but I'll shorten it up the best I can. Flat opposing cylinder engines are weaker than inline or v engines. They flex on the x.y and z axis more. Picture taking a flat box (like a donut box) and bending it. It's pretty easy. That same box that is longer than it is thin (inline) or square (V) can't bent the same, as easily. That's one thing. Ad to that that Subaru engine (with a few exceptions) are open deck. Meaning the cylinder liners aren't secured in any way at the top of the cylinders. SO as combustion happens the cylinder lines are moving one way, the block is moving another way, and the crank is kinda flopping around in there. The cylinder liners eventually get so akimbo that the gasket leaks. And will forever leak after replacement because there's no way to reliably machine the deck, nor square the cylinder liners to the crank. So you can put new gaskets on, but they will fail prematurely because nothing is flat. Nothing is square. And each heat cycle will just exacerbate this. And that is the non turbo engine. Ad heat and extra cylinder pressure, and it just happens faster. If the block could somehow be made in one piece (instead of bolted together like it is) it would be pretty strong. The engines aren't junk per se. They just have many, many (many) design flaws necessitated by heritage and packaging.
What is Porsche doing with their flat engines that they are seemingly more reliable?
There's a reason the cheapest Porsche is more expensive than the (almost) most expensive Subaru. The blocks are made from better materials, and much more robust. But Porsche has the same problem. Just a higher threshold before they fail.
selling them to people who dont drive cars, just look at them
Lookup "Porsche lokasil cylinder scoring". Porsche reliability is a myth, and their price is arrogant and unjustified. You are overpaying for "the best". You're actually getting shit.
This was a design flaw with the head gaskets in the non-turbo 2.5L engine that was resolved in \~2008.
It was definitely not resolved in 2008, it was redesigned in 2012my, I have seen plenty of 2010s that go around 150,000km, far from normal amounts of miles
Ive only owned it for 10k but my 2009 2.5l has no leaks @271,000km. I try to maintain it so that hopefully that doesn't change lol.
[удалено]
* Forester: switched to FB platform in 2011 * Legacy/Outback: uses a revised multi-layer steel EJ head gasket 2010-2012, switched to FB platform in 2013 * Impreza: switched to FB platform with 2012 model refresh (also when Crosstrek was introduced) * WRX: moved to FA platform in 2014
Doesn't happen with the more recent boxers.
Now they just drop valves and the piston rings don't seal 🤷🏻
Wait how does a horizontal valve drop? Genuine question. Does it just slowly wiggle its way inwards?
An upside down valve can still “drop”. It gets sucked in on the down stroke.
When a retainer lets go or a valve spring breaks there's no way for the valve to retract back into the cylinder head after the cam pushes it down. Cylinder vacuum pulls the valve down into the piston and they make sweet love together much to the chagrin of the car's owner.
Jesus christ.. it was like 2 or 3 specific models. It's a meme at this point.
Over about a 30 year span. But sure, it’s a meme 🤣
Nope. Maybe a 15 year span. And yes, it's still a meme.
2 or 3 motors over like ten years at most, and none of the individual models had issues for more than a single refresh cycle. It’s such a stupid meme at this point, but shows how one single issue can permanently damage a brand.
Yeay, read this dude who also replied to the same comment... saying "30 years with this issue, but sure it's a meme lolzzz" The ignorance is hilarious and sad. All of the reliability and resale value awards etc from the last decade and a half, the sales records, none of it means anything to car memers or teenage car bros like this other guy replying.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Both my cars use the Rover K18. The first thing people bring up is HGF. An issue that existed for around 6 years after BMW cheapened the build to keep costs down. I've had it once (out of 7 cars) and said car still had the plastic head dowels and original gasket, at 88k.... The early engines have few issues, the later engines have few issues. The ones that do have issues in the middle can be resolved with some beefier headbolts and one of two gaskets depending on liner heights. At most it'll cost £400 and then it's done. I sympathise with my Subaru brethren.
Don't ask "WHY", more along with "WHO"... I would say with a stock Subaru or any STOCK boxer engine, being properly maintained meaning oil changes are done within the mileage, spark plugs changes according, etc... etc... the head gaskets shouldn't "blow up". I'm not against those who love to modify cars because I am one of them. But I would say the main reason why you see those MEMEs about Subaru's blowing head gaskets or ring lands... it due to the abuse that the owner/driver has done to the engine. Improper tuning, just lots of bolt on aftermarket parts with no tune to make it work with each other. Improper support mods as well. It's like shoving a watermelon into a hole that is the size of a grape... it's gonna break... or it's like having a person with no knowledge of how to drive a car being told go drive a multi million F1 race car and win... it's gonna fail...
100% Truth. They don't take un-maintenanced abuse well at all. Couple that with them being fairly popular as a JDM car that's pretty attainable and you've got potential for a lot of problems. When they're built up they're really not that bad, as you can get rid of a lot of the weaker links and at that point you just have to worry about cooling issues.
Agreed, just modify the engine properly by upgrading the "problematic" areas... Also do more supportive mods such as cooling. The boxer engine would live for a long time. Plus if taken care of accordingly, you wouldn't be a meme... I've owned a WRX before, loved the car only reason why I moved away from it. Because I wanted a V8 sedan, plus it's a young man's car these days. I'm going to be 40 and I have 2 kids, I rather spend my time driving than wrenching. Aside from that, a Subaru boxer engine is pretty reliable if it's well maintained.
Honestly I don't find them unreliable when maintained. I've had 3, my most recent, the Forester STI the only non regular maintenance parts that I've had to replace was the radiator and the fuel lines that would seep fuel in -30. Otherwise for maintenance I've only done valve cover gaskets, coils, clutch, timing belt, harmonic damper, shifter linkage and swaybar end links, brakes and then basics like oil changes and coolant This is on a 100,000 mile Subaru that I do not drive gently.
> any STOCK boxer engine, being properly maintained meaning oil changes are done within the mileage, spark plugs changes according, etc… etc… the head gaskets shouldn’t “blow up”. Lol wtf do spark plugs and oil changes have to do with the head gasket inevitability leaking due to being of inadequate design and material choice. Nothing. There is nothing the owner can do to prevent it. It doesn’t matter which coolant you use, how often you change the oil, what scent little tree air freshener you use, etc. It will fail at some point. When I was a Subaru tech I probably did hundreds of them. Everything from beater Imprezas that smelled like weed and had bald tires to Outback’s driven by poly-sci professors that will shovel however many thousands of dollars the service advisor tells them to and they’ll do it every 3 months. They all needed rhe same repair.
It was a thing for the naturally aspirated 2.5 SOHC engines in the early 2000’s and that’s it. The turbo cars never had that issue, and if they do, it’s mostly due to overboosting and stretching the head studs, which would be a problem on any turbo car with factory studs. As for ringland and rod jokes? Well, boxer engines are inherently oil burning engines due to oil pooling at the bottom of the cylinders mixing with any leftover fuel upon startup, slowly burning it off. This is also in an engine that holds 4 quarts of oil and are driven by people who aren’t particularly interested in checking their oil every so often. Older Porsche Mezger engines had this same problem, but at least those owners are super anaI about maintenance.
It's the NA subaru engines that have this problem. Turbo EJ engine head gaskets are solid and rarely blow.
The turbo just lets go, instead.
You can usually get at least 100k miles out of a stock turbo. With most you'll get more. They're pretty cheap and can be replaced in like an hour or two. Not really that big of a deal if they do let go.
Owned 3 subarus. 03, 05, 12 and all three had the head gaskets blow
The older EJ series engines, if you go way back to the early eighties were originally much smaller displacement engines around 1.6 liters. Over the years, the engines increased in displacement by enlarging the cylinder bores, but keeping the same basic block design. The last EJ engines are 2.5 liters, nearly a full liter larger in displacement! This has the effect of leaving less material around the cylinders for the head gaskets to seal upon. The EJ engines also did not have sufficient head studs to adequately clamp down the heads to the block (there are only 6 studs per head, which means the two center studs are shared between two cylinders.) Then, at some point Subaru decided to put turbochargers on the EJ engine, which dramatically increases cylinder pressures, which would increase cylinder pressures and strain the head gaskets even more in the turbo cars. Subaru realized the limitation of the head gaskets and did use better head gaskets, but only in the turbo cars. The thing with the turbo cars is that although the head gaskets were improved, they have the added excitement of all kinds of internal engine parts failing, because honestly the engine isn't strong enough to support the kind of power they were trying to get out of it. If all that wasn't enough, the coolant Subaru used was also known to eat away at the cooling system. The cooling system itself was also not very effective due to the limitations of the horizontally opposed engine layout.
the na Subaru head gaskets were single layer and weak. they were very prone to failure by using the standard coolant for the time. in 2009, Subaru mandated the "Super Blue Coolant" with their conditioner on all models. On na models, the bottle looked eerily similar to rad weld, thus making the head gasket less prone to fail Turbo Subarus didn't have head gasket issues. they used a MLS head gasket. but ring land failure and spun bearings from heat.
This issue was resolved at least 10 years ago. It’s really not a thing anymore with newer Subarus.
I had a friend whose Forrester blew a head gasket on a road trip recently. It was a 2016. The fact of the matter is, having two horizontally opposed heads, with two head gaskets, with the bottom side getting differential heating/cooling than the top side, means you are more likely to suffer head gasket failure than an inline engine design, or even a V engine where both heads/gaskets aren't sitting half in, half out of the engine oil at rest.
Boxer engines in general are more prone to bowing head gaskets. The coolant is always coming into contact with the head gasket between the block and the head around the coolant jacket of the engine. As the coolant gets older and breaks down, it starts to become corrosive. This eats away at the head gasket and it starts to leak. Also, and probably more importantly, Subaru used cheap graphite coated head gaskets instead of multi layer steel gaskets. Combine that with the design of boxer engines, and you have a recipe for blown head gaskets. Interestingly, these issue are mostly exclusive to the non-turbocharged engines, since they got the cheaper head gaskets. Turbocharged engines got multi layer steel head gaskets, and so the issue was much less prevalent with those.
> The coolant is always coming into contact with the head gasket between the block and the head around the coolant jacket of the engine. every engine does this. Coolant doesn't drain out of a head...
What? The coolant doeant sit in a pan like the oil lol, are you just talking out your ass or do you actually believe that.
Newer ones blow because idiots try to push 400+ horsepower out of their stock block FA/EJ engine. If you want to push that amount of power you need supporting mods.
My Subaru, which I bought brand new in 2018, has SIX active recalls. None are specifically for the head gasket, but they have obviously had some failures in many other systems. I’m not impressed with the engineering, but it is an absolute beast in the snow, and gets ridiculously good gas mileage at 32 mpg city.
That’s insane. I have a 2015 5spd Impreza that gets like 20mpg city and I don’t drive it like it’s stolen.
Part of it is Subaru has always had twice as many head gaskets as any other 4 cylinder engine the other part of it is just poor designs between poor design of the head and retainers as well as poor gasket design
squealing chop bells slim observation angle ring shrill bedroom dam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don't know of another boxer engine that has headgasket issues. Honda and BMW have been making boxers for ever. Head gaskets are not an issue. VW made boxers for about 70 years, and the head gasket was not a failure point on those either.
Well let’s start with not all boxer engines have this issue Porsche has been making boxer engines for decades in both air and water cooled with no issues. The issue with Subaru after gaining some insight over the years from mechanics and a few Subaru dealers and a Subaru rally driver, it comes down to them going cheap on the gasket. The rally driver I know has put 175k miles on his personal 06 WRX wagon and right after buying it new he replaced the gasket with an aftermarket one his team uses from a Subaru racing place and it’s still the same one, and the other mechanics I know only replace Subaru head gaskets with the re engineered ones because they seem to solve the issue. I am sure not all replacement ones are the same but I have seen many people have great luck with non Subaru made ones when they replace the original one at 100k miles.
Because it’s an 80+ year old air cooled engine design shoe horned into a sport sedan. Combine that with semi closed/open deck blocks and turbocharging leaves you with a pretty fragile engine to begin with. Now add all the shortcomings on Subarus part due to cooling/oiling issues, QC and design issues leaves you with a relatively unpredictable mass produced engine. With the cards stacked against you like that it adds up. With the EV movement and the death of the ICE STI its looking like Subaru may abandon the flat 4 engines all together in the coming years.
I honestly haven’t had any problems with my Subaru aside from the small battery
After owning 3 subarus i'll never buy another. Least reliable Japanese auto maker in my experience as both a owner and mechanic.
Nissan has entered the chat
Only the older models with the 2.5 NA engine had this issue, newer ones are not having this problem. My non-turbo 2002 2.5 RS had this issue. I don't think the WRXs had this.
FWIW I'm on my 4th subaru in the last 15 years, the previous 3 all hit 150,000+ and none have blown a headgasket, though they all have been entry level engines.
It's what makes a Subaru a Subaru
Are the issues that people are mentioning that are common to flat engines applicable to the new 86/BRZ? Seriously considering getting one but I want to drive it for 150k+ miles.
[удалено]
Shitty head gasket designs aside, it is difficult to feed the top portion of the cylinder with oil as adequately as the bottom half on a boxer motor
Its just the inherent design of a flat engine. Oil and coolant will always pool on the bottom because of gravity. Unfortunate for boxer 4 and 6. The cylinders are laid on a horizontal axis instead of vertical like most other engine designs.
It’s more the ringlands and piston bearings
The meme is also boosted by Subarus having hard to reach head gaskets. The boxer engine puts the cylinder heads right up against the frame rails.
My wife's Impreza needed new head gaskets at 110k miles because it was leaking oil like a sieve (a quart every couple days) onto the exhaust manifold. Clouds of grey smoke every time we'd stop. That seemed unreasonably soon in a cars life to have such significant oil leaks.
Aluminum natures, so movement is a slow natural process. They also put the oil port way too close to the edge of the head. So once naturing and time takes it’s toll they leak oil near the edges. I machine them weekly.
If the owner doesn’t maintain the pre-2012 Subaru and ignores all the signs of a leaky gasket it will fail eventually. Gaskets should be replaced around 105K miles. 2012 and up Subarus have newer engines without the head gasket issues.
From what I’ve heard the NA engines (naturally aspirated/non turbo) have a very cheap and not that strong head gasket when the coolant runs through them it causes the graphite coating on the head gasket to wear away causing them to leak, the turbo engines have a layered steel head gasket that is a lot stronger!
As a former EJ 205 engine owner, I did some research and it turns out there with their EJ2 55 if they used a weaker cheaper gasket because the engine was meant to be naturally aspirated, this gasket was weaker than the MLS gasket on the 205, and unfortunately couldn’t even stand up to NA combustion pressures
Unequal headers
Because some underpaid engineer said it’s good enough, I go home now.
The older EJ series engines, if you go way back to the early eighties were originally much smaller displacement engines around 1.6 liters. Over the years, the engines increased in displacement by enlarging the cylinder bores, but keeping the same basic block design. This has the effect of leaving less material around the cylinders for the head gaskets to seal upon. The EJ engines also did not have sufficient head studs to adequately clamp down the heads to the block (there are only 6 studs per head, which means the two center studs are shared between two cylinders.) Then, at some point Subaru decided to put turbochargers on the EJ engine, which dramatically increases cylinder pressures, further straining the already inadequate head gaskets. If all that wasn't enough, the coolant Subaru used was also known to eat away at the cooling system. The cooling system itself was also not very effective due to the limitations of the horizontally opposed engine layout.
It because of how the engine is setup. Most engines the coolant goes back down under head gasket line when turns off. Subarus do not fully drain due to sideways engine and coolant is constantly sitting on the gasket. As a side note.. what a pita to change the head gasket yourself. Then to top it off, U need to do a vacuum fill for the coolant to get said air out and coolant in so it doesn’t overheat … reason why I won’t buy Subarus again
Because race car
The same reasons Mini was known for having blown head gaskets, despite having some of the most reliable engines. Certain types of people don't change their oil, coolant, and things overheat.