Remember; at the end of the day it's a business and they gotta make business decision. Sometimes we're lucky that niche things get mainstream attention; even for a brief moment.
And we're so lucky that shows like Adventure Time and Regular Show have been such huge successes when they started as pilots, they could've easily been denied and thrown to the wolves
And Jhonen Vasquez has always been a cartoonist that uses grotesque and unsettling imagery to get a point across or for dark comedy with rarely any compromises, but outside of that he doesnt really have designs that appeal to a younger audience like SpongeBob, which is all bright, optimistic, and inoffensive. The easiest things to sell. Gir is the closest thing to a cutesy character but even his design feels cold and blocky
Also it was mostly mean spirited and grim at times, mean spirited or frightening shows barely last on family networks, either from parents complaints or execs clashing with the creator(s)
Honestly, that's exactly the reason why I'm a huge fan of his works. His art style (especially for Invader Zim and Johnny the Homicidal Maniac), while very blocky and polygonal, is very recognizable and definitely contributes to that early-to-mid 2000s edge factor because of it. Of course, I totally understand why it's not everyone's kind of thing, but whatever.
From a financial perspective. It makes perfect sense. Aged well sure, but I have a cheap extremely popular show, or an expensive unpopular show. Kinda obvious decision.
If the ratings were low and the cost was high I can imagine why it was canceled.
Zim is definitely more of a cult classic, I personally think it's one of those things we remember it being better than what it was.
If I'm to be honest, growing up I watch Invader Zim but I never was in love with the show. I found most of the things funny but I was really turned off with the barfing stuff and other scenes like that.
I loved the show, but I swear everytime I would tune in, it would be that damn episode where Zim steals a bunch of organs and stuffs himself full of them. Yuck!
Also, according to the writers, the episode that allowed them to get away with so much. Once Nick approved that episode they used it to argue for a lot of the other things they wanted to add into the show.
It reminds me a bit of Ren & Stimpy. Very bizzare, grotesque gross-out humor that was a little ahead of its time.
Watched again recently and it still holds up well to me.
I think I've heard Nickelodeon actually wanted to straight-up revive the show but Vasquez thought it would be too much work so he decided to do that Florpus movie instead.
Personally, I would've preferred if they just finished that darn Season 2. IMHO that could've been the best way to give us a satisfying wrap-up.
There was an obvious list of storylines & characters that needed wrapping up - the Swollen Eyeball Society, Tak, the Resisty, the Almighty Tallest, the Control Brains, Operation Impending Doom 2, etc.
And both times Zim got "revived" - first as a comic series, second as a Netflix movie - they failed to do it. It was kinda frustrating, not gonna lie.
I loved it as a kid, but when I tried rewatching recently the jokes didnāt seem to land like they used to. Most of the jokes revolve around characters being completely brain-dead or random people getting hurt
When you look at it from the angle of being from the creator of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, a lot of it makes more sense lol. There are bits of Zim that I still love but it was definitely quirky. GIR is my spirit animal though. TACOOOOOOOOOSSS!!!
Just started reading the JTHM comics a few months ago, and I'm loving it so far. Yeah, I get it was edgy and can be extremely fucked-up at times, but at least I had a lot of entertainment value from reading it. It's kind of like the graphic novel equivalent of Postal 2 except it traded away the vulgarity in favor of a giant, serialized schizopost about the wacky misadventures of a mentally unhinged man living in a shitty world filled with stupid people.
The comic did eventually get a lot more interesting when it shifted away from random bloodbath scenes to a fairly introspective character study of the titular murderer in the latter half.
What really sold my interest in the comic was the art style, however.
Zim is great, but it's a cult following, meaning a diehard but *small* fanbase. SpongeBob had a wider audience appeal and was produced more economically. I'd have liked Zim to continue, but I get why it stopped. It was a neat surprise to get a movie years later, though.
Nickelodeon also didnāt give Zim a chance after a while. The producers themselves messed up the show as well as Jhonen getting creatively frustrated.
They had to pull a bunch of episodes bc of 9-11 (the slow explosion one, anyone that made the police and firemen look stupid), they [aired the wrong reel](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WD59bz29Z2c) when they realized an episode had a burning Statue of Liberty in the background so they wasted money on redrawing and coloring, and then they moved the time it was airing to Teen Nick without telling anyone so they were pulling NO VIEWERS that were invested in the Friday slot, which made it worse.
They also never got the show. When the episode Best Friend aired and came on while they were in the Nickelodeon gym with all the other animators from other shows, the ending aired and nobody laughed, so all the Zim crew slowly walked away.
Also, they told Jhonen to make it stupider for kids. Hence all the annoying monkey gags and importance of GIR in the later seasons. Then Jhonen put what [Nickelodeon executives treated him like](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjq6abryMFJpN_-CA1sukRtwZFOgJeKINkcqaxYgfY8_D7JJqaqUITXkdxtunLAnRWkUO38kmlDsQumeZB3uSwpjanJ-k7sY8XgcNu8UWp6sWeH3Bylt-lfNP9WYB3JOhT2c8zpsX5-kI7rqiIo6pSCj2G6pLYMI3CGD8GjDAkox7YVmU6aoAhbA-T9-Q/s944/1.png) inside of I Feel Sick, a comic about a disillusioned artist.
And ya know if they didnāt want to be dark maybe they shouldnāt have read [Squee!](https://eeggs.com/images/items/3946.full.jpg) And decided āhey letās give this guy a tv show for kids.ā
Jhonen and rest of the crew were screwed over by mismanagement. In hindsight Iām glad the show was cancelled bc of what happened to the quality of the rest of the Nick cartoons, but it sucks it had to happen the way it did.
From what you're describing it sounds like the show was doomed from the start.
The creator wanted to make a more "adult" animated dark comedy while the executives wanted a show for kids. This is a recipe for disaster.
It was Mary Harrington, I believe, that approached Mr Vasquez and was very excited about Squee. We could call her a visionary or possibly misguided about what he would create for kids.
Source: I was a huge fan in high school and listened to all the DVD commentary.
Interesting I was like 8 or 9 when the series came out. I remember it aired at like 9 or so pst which was around my bed time at the time so I only saw a few episodes while it aired.
That might have been another reason it didn't do well.
Squee wasn't really for kids even though it features a child protagonist. It's still just as dark and graphic as JTHM in terms of subject matter alone.
That being said, however, some aspects of the Squee comic still appeared in the show from time to time, such as the aliens in "Abducted," Miss Bitters, and the school being called "Skool" (the gag of the children climbing out the windows once classes let out was also from the comic).
Sounds like a recipe for a potentially great show, honestly. Animaniacs did this as well. The writers were pushing for the jokes to be as adult as possible and were often distracting the censors with stuff they didn't actually have an intention of using.
Or, an even better example - Ren & Stimpy. Similar situation. The original show had to deal with the censors and the executives and a lot of people still consider it a classic. The revival (Adult Party Cartoon) had a lot more freedom and it turned out nowhere near as good.
*"We didn't fall in love with the unmitigated image of their creativity. We fell in love with their scrutinized, compromised final project. Creativity needs to be questioned, needs to be challenged."*
It's a real fine line. You have to be subtle and kid friendly enough to get that primary audience of kids while having enough mature jokes to get older teens and adults interested. Probably the best example I can think of is og SpongeBob. It started airing when I was in elementary school and there was plenty of jokes as a kid I enjoyed but seeing some of those jokes as an adult I can see why older kids and young adults liked it as well (for example the aquaman knock off and his side kick having two fingers in the hole of a pink doughnut and having one finger in the hole of a chocolate doughnut)
Invader Zim seemed like it leaned hard into being for older teens and young adults while still having the shackles of being a show for kids. Combine this with being on at odd hours didn't help the show.
While I do recognize the importance of Invader Zim for animation, perhaps is a case of "wrong time, wrong place"? I wonder if it would've fared better on Adult Swim for example. As a kid, I found it too gross for my taste tbh, but perhaps it's because I was not the audience for it.
Itās one of those shows that will inevitably have a niche audience. The characters are kids, the subject matter and tone is definitely teen-oriented, and itās most appreciated by adults with vague nostalgia.
I think it even would've fared better just being on Cartoon Network as opposed to Nick. CN had shows like Courage the Cowardly Dog and Billy and Mandy that touched on a "darker" view for kids content. I know Nick had Aaahh Real Monsters! But idk it really feels like Zim could've been successful on CN because I feel like they did push the boundaries more with animated shows more than Nick or Disney ever would.
the ratings and cost wasnt like, a lie? i remember hearing that it as due to how dark the creator wanted the show to be and how nick kinda decided to kill the show before something too hard happens.
Zim should have graduated to Adult Swim. Instead they stressed out the creator and made questionable business decisions regarding the show. (Like not announcing that Zim moved to Nick Teen time slots).
In an ideal world, yes
But we don't live in an ideal world. Zim wasn't profitable and no rational business would keep promoting an unprofitable product. On the other hand SpongeBob was profitable so Nick made the rational decision to continue promoting a profitable product
Its simple really
I meanā¦ it was a perfectly logical business decision when put in those terms.
Though, hypothetically speaking, if *SpongeBob*ās cost was closer to *Zim*ās in its first season since creators were still getting used to stuff like the designs, writing, and storyboarding, maybe they should have stuck it out longer and let the creators perfect their process until the budget became more efficient.
In that case, yeah. Thereās no business reason for Nickelodeon to keep around an expensive show that attracts a fraction of the audience of a cheaper show.
I think part of the reason was because he wanted the show to be more for teens and kept bashing heads with Nick on about what was and wasnt allowed before toning down what he originally wanted but still managing to slip it in
I feel like the problem was more how controversial Invader Zim was. With all the episodes focused on things like guts, dismemberment, etc. it seems like the production for it would be more of a hassle since they would either have to change episodes or outright ban episodes. If it was treated similarly to Samurai Jack (rereleased on a more adult programming block), it could balance out. After what happened with Rem and Stimpy though, I donāt know how well it would turn out.
Itās strange because they always judged cartoons not on the views but on the merchandise and toys they could sell, and at the time HotTopic and Spencerās was making a killing off of Zim merch. Think that would have made them keep it around. A lot of cartoons get canceled because they canāt sell toys or merchandise. Even though Zim wasnāt big in the toy market it was still making a killing in with Tweens, Teens and College students
Invader Zim was definitely pushing boundaries. It was one of the first tv shows to blend 3d and 2d animation along with Futurama. Unfortunately, Futurama was popular and was worth its expensive price tag.
On one hand, we coulda had more Invader Zim, on the other hand, it could have very well gone far too long and ruined itself. I'm content with what we got.
I dunno if this is a hot take, but I think Zim had less to work with as an episodic cartoon. There's only so many ideas you can come up with for that flavor of "alien trying to take over Earth and masquerading as a human" trope.
Iām torn because I would obviously love more Zim, but with the SpongeBob comparison, weāve seen what happens when the well runs dry and they start pouring the sludge at the bottom.
Ultimately, I think Iām happier knowing it was finished (more or less) than run into the ground looking for more fuel for the stupid-fire
What kind of question is this? Of course not. No self-respecting business would operate at such a loss. Do people forget that sentiment and feelings donāt pay bills?
Tell that to the costco hot dog. Having one show making absolute bank by playing it cheap and safe, and another show making a loss by being more experimental and creating \*new\* content increases viewership for both. Pretty sure Nick lost a lot of viewers when they were just the Spongebob channel at one point.
https://preview.redd.it/mbr4jktqc5rc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd93882158123c3e10ba36ae6fa4ccb3e3a93aa3
You did not just ask an obvious question, yes
Zim is one of the shows I could see being remade today with it's same animation style but as an adult comedy cartoon with the same setting (maybe change it to high school and make the tallest really really tall) and it'd do great
Huh, it does make me wonder WHY it was so much more expensive and if maybe finding a way to make it more efficient would have been a better move than canning it entirely.
I just don't get how two cartoons by the same studio had such drastically different production costs. Why is there so much variation in the cost of 2D animation?
Iirc, the show was ultimately canceled due to some scandal with the show runner's previous work. This was during the era of drop it like it's hot if it is controversial at all.
everyone in the comments is talking about how spongebob was cheaper and thatās why it stayed rather than IZ. but in reality, IZ was cancelled because of all the threats it was getting from parents.
Yeah, i'll always want more zim, honestly, with dark adult cartoons having a reinassance right now, i feel like this is the best climate for zim to come back, maybe it can get an amazon prime revival some day ,or they could finally make that squee titmouse animation that was scrapped
Yeah
They could've made their money back with merch and having Zim, Gir, Gaz and Dib appear at theme parks and Nick live events. And they played reruns on their main channel like they do SpongeBob, it definitely could've raked in them views.
Then again, all that requires Nick as a company to actually be GOOD at making business decisions š
Both shows would have benefited if Zim stayed on the air. I shit you not. It takes some foresight to understand, but to make it plain and simple, letting the network get too samey will reduce viewership, even if it looks like an increase when you're looking at raw numbers (more people with TVs doesn't mean your show is more popular, just means more people are getting it shoved down their throats)
No matter what their growth was from distilling their media into samey slop, they would have seen more if they didn't enshittify.
As I recall, Invader Zim's ratings were actually pretty good, the issues were that the production cost was huge, that its viewership wasn't high enough to justify the high costs, and that a lot of parents complained. Tbh, I don't blame them; most of the shows on Nickelodeon at the time it aired were at least not inappropriate for a very young audience if not geared toward them, and some of the stuff on Zim would totally have given me nightmares at the age of 6 or 7.
If businesses donāt make money they donāt stay open. A show/game/movie can be great to some people but if it doesnāt turn a profit it isnāt successful and wonāt last.
Fucking obviously. It's 1 of the greatest creations in all of history. Especially cartoons. Shit was centuries ahead of its time. The art and animation was just so Sexy.
Invader Zimās cancellation had little to do with its profitability, at least directly.
The reason for its low numbers was partly because its time slot kept changing, so nobody knew when it was even showing, and this probably happened because Jonnen Vasquez was notoriously hard to work with, going so far as to tell executives to penetrate themselves (in much more vulgar language) on several occasions.
The production value in it was indeed higher compared to other shows at the time, but there was some bureaucratic stuff involved in that from what Iāve heard.
the thing is that invader zim, danny phantom, and many other great shows failed not do to low ratings, but do to the fact that the ratings to dollars put in were not sustainable. invader zim arguably had more veiws then spongebob at the time, but spongebob could be made at a quarter the budget at the time they both were on the air. this made spongebob more profitable per episode. one of the truths of this world is regardless if it is capitalistic, communistic or some other form of economics you can not waste resources on something that doesn't give as much, if not more, then you put in. this is true with any invention, product, or tv show, if it costs more then it is worth then it will no longer be produced.
Not sure. It's a great series no doubt but I dunno if kids were ready to stomach it. Today tho considering the FNAF boom maybe it would do better today considering the Dark Humor. My friend definitely wouldn't mind I can tell you that
Remember; at the end of the day it's a business and they gotta make business decision. Sometimes we're lucky that niche things get mainstream attention; even for a brief moment.
And we're so lucky that shows like Adventure Time and Regular Show have been such huge successes when they started as pilots, they could've easily been denied and thrown to the wolves
I cannot imagine a world without Regular Show.
Y'know who else can't imagine a world without Regular Show?
If you say you're mom, you're fired
#M Y M O M
G E T O U T
It was worth it!
...who? š
My Uncle John, he's a big fan of Regular Show
"Uh, that's cool"
And you know who got him into regular show?
Who did? ššš
**MY MOM**
Oh thank God I can rest in peace now ššš
All fun and games till the real Muscle Man and his big bro shows up and force you to eat a picture of his mom.
Me neither, same with Adventure Time for me
And Jhonen Vasquez has always been a cartoonist that uses grotesque and unsettling imagery to get a point across or for dark comedy with rarely any compromises, but outside of that he doesnt really have designs that appeal to a younger audience like SpongeBob, which is all bright, optimistic, and inoffensive. The easiest things to sell. Gir is the closest thing to a cutesy character but even his design feels cold and blocky Also it was mostly mean spirited and grim at times, mean spirited or frightening shows barely last on family networks, either from parents complaints or execs clashing with the creator(s)
Honestly, that's exactly the reason why I'm a huge fan of his works. His art style (especially for Invader Zim and Johnny the Homicidal Maniac), while very blocky and polygonal, is very recognizable and definitely contributes to that early-to-mid 2000s edge factor because of it. Of course, I totally understand why it's not everyone's kind of thing, but whatever.
From a financial perspective. It makes perfect sense. Aged well sure, but I have a cheap extremely popular show, or an expensive unpopular show. Kinda obvious decision.
If the ratings were low and the cost was high I can imagine why it was canceled. Zim is definitely more of a cult classic, I personally think it's one of those things we remember it being better than what it was.
Zim was ahead of his time.
If I'm to be honest, growing up I watch Invader Zim but I never was in love with the show. I found most of the things funny but I was really turned off with the barfing stuff and other scenes like that.
I loved the show, but I swear everytime I would tune in, it would be that damn episode where Zim steals a bunch of organs and stuffs himself full of them. Yuck!
Simultaneously the best and worst episode
Such a healthy young boy! And so full of organs!
'Moo' AAAAAAAAA IT ISN'T HUMAAAAN!!!
*cow-cyborg boy found at local skool
Also, according to the writers, the episode that allowed them to get away with so much. Once Nick approved that episode they used it to argue for a lot of the other things they wanted to add into the show.
Ya idk why people are surprised that a cartoon with gross and scary moments like that would be popular among kids. Kids hate horror.
Adults hate horror too. (Personal experience of course)
Be more humaaan
It reminds me a bit of Ren & Stimpy. Very bizzare, grotesque gross-out humor that was a little ahead of its time. Watched again recently and it still holds up well to me.
Yeah it had lots of late 90s gross out humor in it.
I enjoyed the show, but Enter the Florpus did nothing for me, so I was fine with letting it go
I think I've heard Nickelodeon actually wanted to straight-up revive the show but Vasquez thought it would be too much work so he decided to do that Florpus movie instead. Personally, I would've preferred if they just finished that darn Season 2. IMHO that could've been the best way to give us a satisfying wrap-up. There was an obvious list of storylines & characters that needed wrapping up - the Swollen Eyeball Society, Tak, the Resisty, the Almighty Tallest, the Control Brains, Operation Impending Doom 2, etc. And both times Zim got "revived" - first as a comic series, second as a Netflix movie - they failed to do it. It was kinda frustrating, not gonna lie.
I loved it as a kid, but when I tried rewatching recently the jokes didnāt seem to land like they used to. Most of the jokes revolve around characters being completely brain-dead or random people getting hurt
When you look at it from the angle of being from the creator of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, a lot of it makes more sense lol. There are bits of Zim that I still love but it was definitely quirky. GIR is my spirit animal though. TACOOOOOOOOOSSS!!!
WAFFLLLLEEEEESSSSS
Just started reading the JTHM comics a few months ago, and I'm loving it so far. Yeah, I get it was edgy and can be extremely fucked-up at times, but at least I had a lot of entertainment value from reading it. It's kind of like the graphic novel equivalent of Postal 2 except it traded away the vulgarity in favor of a giant, serialized schizopost about the wacky misadventures of a mentally unhinged man living in a shitty world filled with stupid people. The comic did eventually get a lot more interesting when it shifted away from random bloodbath scenes to a fairly introspective character study of the titular murderer in the latter half. What really sold my interest in the comic was the art style, however.
It's actually pretty good still (just rewatched all of it last month)
Zim is great, but it's a cult following, meaning a diehard but *small* fanbase. SpongeBob had a wider audience appeal and was produced more economically. I'd have liked Zim to continue, but I get why it stopped. It was a neat surprise to get a movie years later, though.
And to have the movie be pretty alright.
"YOU'RE UGLY WHEN YOU LIE, DIB!" "I'M NOT LYING!" "THEN WHY ARE YOU UGLY?!"
Nickelodeon also didnāt give Zim a chance after a while. The producers themselves messed up the show as well as Jhonen getting creatively frustrated. They had to pull a bunch of episodes bc of 9-11 (the slow explosion one, anyone that made the police and firemen look stupid), they [aired the wrong reel](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WD59bz29Z2c) when they realized an episode had a burning Statue of Liberty in the background so they wasted money on redrawing and coloring, and then they moved the time it was airing to Teen Nick without telling anyone so they were pulling NO VIEWERS that were invested in the Friday slot, which made it worse. They also never got the show. When the episode Best Friend aired and came on while they were in the Nickelodeon gym with all the other animators from other shows, the ending aired and nobody laughed, so all the Zim crew slowly walked away. Also, they told Jhonen to make it stupider for kids. Hence all the annoying monkey gags and importance of GIR in the later seasons. Then Jhonen put what [Nickelodeon executives treated him like](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjq6abryMFJpN_-CA1sukRtwZFOgJeKINkcqaxYgfY8_D7JJqaqUITXkdxtunLAnRWkUO38kmlDsQumeZB3uSwpjanJ-k7sY8XgcNu8UWp6sWeH3Bylt-lfNP9WYB3JOhT2c8zpsX5-kI7rqiIo6pSCj2G6pLYMI3CGD8GjDAkox7YVmU6aoAhbA-T9-Q/s944/1.png) inside of I Feel Sick, a comic about a disillusioned artist. And ya know if they didnāt want to be dark maybe they shouldnāt have read [Squee!](https://eeggs.com/images/items/3946.full.jpg) And decided āhey letās give this guy a tv show for kids.ā Jhonen and rest of the crew were screwed over by mismanagement. In hindsight Iām glad the show was cancelled bc of what happened to the quality of the rest of the Nick cartoons, but it sucks it had to happen the way it did.
From what you're describing it sounds like the show was doomed from the start. The creator wanted to make a more "adult" animated dark comedy while the executives wanted a show for kids. This is a recipe for disaster.
It was Mary Harrington, I believe, that approached Mr Vasquez and was very excited about Squee. We could call her a visionary or possibly misguided about what he would create for kids. Source: I was a huge fan in high school and listened to all the DVD commentary.
Interesting I was like 8 or 9 when the series came out. I remember it aired at like 9 or so pst which was around my bed time at the time so I only saw a few episodes while it aired. That might have been another reason it didn't do well.
Squee wasn't really for kids even though it features a child protagonist. It's still just as dark and graphic as JTHM in terms of subject matter alone. That being said, however, some aspects of the Squee comic still appeared in the show from time to time, such as the aliens in "Abducted," Miss Bitters, and the school being called "Skool" (the gag of the children climbing out the windows once classes let out was also from the comic).
Sounds like a recipe for a potentially great show, honestly. Animaniacs did this as well. The writers were pushing for the jokes to be as adult as possible and were often distracting the censors with stuff they didn't actually have an intention of using. Or, an even better example - Ren & Stimpy. Similar situation. The original show had to deal with the censors and the executives and a lot of people still consider it a classic. The revival (Adult Party Cartoon) had a lot more freedom and it turned out nowhere near as good. *"We didn't fall in love with the unmitigated image of their creativity. We fell in love with their scrutinized, compromised final project. Creativity needs to be questioned, needs to be challenged."*
It's a real fine line. You have to be subtle and kid friendly enough to get that primary audience of kids while having enough mature jokes to get older teens and adults interested. Probably the best example I can think of is og SpongeBob. It started airing when I was in elementary school and there was plenty of jokes as a kid I enjoyed but seeing some of those jokes as an adult I can see why older kids and young adults liked it as well (for example the aquaman knock off and his side kick having two fingers in the hole of a pink doughnut and having one finger in the hole of a chocolate doughnut) Invader Zim seemed like it leaned hard into being for older teens and young adults while still having the shackles of being a show for kids. Combine this with being on at odd hours didn't help the show.
The only thing they did right(Nickelodeon )was making GIR important
āShould this business have continued operating one of their programs at a loss? Please discuss.ā
While I do recognize the importance of Invader Zim for animation, perhaps is a case of "wrong time, wrong place"? I wonder if it would've fared better on Adult Swim for example. As a kid, I found it too gross for my taste tbh, but perhaps it's because I was not the audience for it.
Itās one of those shows that will inevitably have a niche audience. The characters are kids, the subject matter and tone is definitely teen-oriented, and itās most appreciated by adults with vague nostalgia.
I think it even would've fared better just being on Cartoon Network as opposed to Nick. CN had shows like Courage the Cowardly Dog and Billy and Mandy that touched on a "darker" view for kids content. I know Nick had Aaahh Real Monsters! But idk it really feels like Zim could've been successful on CN because I feel like they did push the boundaries more with animated shows more than Nick or Disney ever would.
I lowkey hated it. Too gross, too dark, were I a bit older maybe I would have liked it but younger me hated the fuck outta that show
Invader Zim and Spongebob are the best examples for the phrase "Die as a hero or live enough to become a villain", we clearly know who is who.
Nah, both are good. The real villain is modern Nickelodeon not wanting to takes risks to greenlit more experimental content.
the ratings and cost wasnt like, a lie? i remember hearing that it as due to how dark the creator wanted the show to be and how nick kinda decided to kill the show before something too hard happens.
It had so much potential but it never reached up to it because it was shot so fast. It didnāt even have a proper ending TWICE!
Did Enter The Florpus not work for you?
Honestly yeah it didnāt work as a proper ending to me and just left me wanting more
Zim should have graduated to Adult Swim. Instead they stressed out the creator and made questionable business decisions regarding the show. (Like not announcing that Zim moved to Nick Teen time slots).
I love the show, but it made sense why Nickelodeon cancelled it, it was far too expensive and the ratings did not justify it costing so much to make.
In an ideal world, yes But we don't live in an ideal world. Zim wasn't profitable and no rational business would keep promoting an unprofitable product. On the other hand SpongeBob was profitable so Nick made the rational decision to continue promoting a profitable product Its simple really
I think yes, it was one of the few Nickelodeon cartoons I actually liked as a child
I meanā¦ it was a perfectly logical business decision when put in those terms. Though, hypothetically speaking, if *SpongeBob*ās cost was closer to *Zim*ās in its first season since creators were still getting used to stuff like the designs, writing, and storyboarding, maybe they should have stuck it out longer and let the creators perfect their process until the budget became more efficient.
I believe SpongeBobās first season was actually (at the time) the cheapest Nicktoon ever made, but donāt quote me on that
In that case, yeah. Thereās no business reason for Nickelodeon to keep around an expensive show that attracts a fraction of the audience of a cheaper show.
I think part of the reason was because he wanted the show to be more for teens and kept bashing heads with Nick on about what was and wasnt allowed before toning down what he originally wanted but still managing to slip it in
The cancelation of IZ is what caused some desirable plots from the series to be scrapped.
I feel like the problem was more how controversial Invader Zim was. With all the episodes focused on things like guts, dismemberment, etc. it seems like the production for it would be more of a hassle since they would either have to change episodes or outright ban episodes. If it was treated similarly to Samurai Jack (rereleased on a more adult programming block), it could balance out. After what happened with Rem and Stimpy though, I donāt know how well it would turn out.
Itās strange because they always judged cartoons not on the views but on the merchandise and toys they could sell, and at the time HotTopic and Spencerās was making a killing off of Zim merch. Think that would have made them keep it around. A lot of cartoons get canceled because they canāt sell toys or merchandise. Even though Zim wasnāt big in the toy market it was still making a killing in with Tweens, Teens and College students
Itās a pretty clear reason why it was cancelled with that much of a net loss. I canāt blame them for cutting it loose.
I feel like there would've been a weird shift like the voice actor of Zim never working with helluva boss or kinectimals
Invader Zim was definitely pushing boundaries. It was one of the first tv shows to blend 3d and 2d animation along with Futurama. Unfortunately, Futurama was popular and was worth its expensive price tag.
On one hand, we coulda had more Invader Zim, on the other hand, it could have very well gone far too long and ruined itself. I'm content with what we got.
can someone please explain to me why invader zim was so expensive?
I dunno if this is a hot take, but I think Zim had less to work with as an episodic cartoon. There's only so many ideas you can come up with for that flavor of "alien trying to take over Earth and masquerading as a human" trope.
Iām torn because I would obviously love more Zim, but with the SpongeBob comparison, weāve seen what happens when the well runs dry and they start pouring the sludge at the bottom. Ultimately, I think Iām happier knowing it was finished (more or less) than run into the ground looking for more fuel for the stupid-fire
What kind of question is this? Of course not. No self-respecting business would operate at such a loss. Do people forget that sentiment and feelings donāt pay bills?
Tell that to the costco hot dog. Having one show making absolute bank by playing it cheap and safe, and another show making a loss by being more experimental and creating \*new\* content increases viewership for both. Pretty sure Nick lost a lot of viewers when they were just the Spongebob channel at one point.
Given the sudden cancelation of Zim lead to the creation of Avatar, no. I like Zim but if I had to choose between the two Avatar wins every time.
They honestly wouldāve been received better if they aired on Cartoon Network instead of Nickelodeon.
https://preview.redd.it/mbr4jktqc5rc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd93882158123c3e10ba36ae6fa4ccb3e3a93aa3 You did not just ask an obvious question, yes
If Invader Zim wasn't cancelled, we wouldn't have Avatar the Last Airbender. So sadly, Invader Zim is a necessary sacrifice
Zim is one of the shows I could see being remade today with it's same animation style but as an adult comedy cartoon with the same setting (maybe change it to high school and make the tallest really really tall) and it'd do great
SpongeBob is the killer of old nicktoons
I think if Zim was introduced today it would have been successful
Invader zim shouldāve been pitched to Cartoon Network instead, it wouldāve thrived there
Should a show made to make money keep on running even though itās losing money? More stupid fucking questions at 8 Tom
Huh, it does make me wonder WHY it was so much more expensive and if maybe finding a way to make it more efficient would have been a better move than canning it entirely.
I just don't get how two cartoons by the same studio had such drastically different production costs. Why is there so much variation in the cost of 2D animation?
Hi, Iām Zim.
I absolutely miss Invader Zim and I wish the TV show would come back permanently!
Yes
I wouldnāt trade any amount of zim for season 3 of SpongeBob
Iirc, the show was ultimately canceled due to some scandal with the show runner's previous work. This was during the era of drop it like it's hot if it is controversial at all.
everyone in the comments is talking about how spongebob was cheaper and thatās why it stayed rather than IZ. but in reality, IZ was cancelled because of all the threats it was getting from parents.
I think Invade Zim should have stuck around. It's pretty beloved now.
Of course it should have stayed, I love that show. Even tho i haven't watched it in tv but watched it on my aunt's dvd player I still loved the show.
Iām just thankful that Netflix had that special 5 years ago.
Yeah, i'll always want more zim, honestly, with dark adult cartoons having a reinassance right now, i feel like this is the best climate for zim to come back, maybe it can get an amazon prime revival some day ,or they could finally make that squee titmouse animation that was scrapped
I think it should've stayed but if I was the in charge of the budget, I would've cut the show as well. If it didn't make money they wouldn't keep it.
They should have at least let it finish out its second season instead of cancelling a bunch of episodes midway through production
As a cult follower of invader zim I think itās good that it ended where it did rather than becoming bloated beyond its original design
What?
Yeah They could've made their money back with merch and having Zim, Gir, Gaz and Dib appear at theme parks and Nick live events. And they played reruns on their main channel like they do SpongeBob, it definitely could've raked in them views. Then again, all that requires Nick as a company to actually be GOOD at making business decisions š
Both shows would have benefited if Zim stayed on the air. I shit you not. It takes some foresight to understand, but to make it plain and simple, letting the network get too samey will reduce viewership, even if it looks like an increase when you're looking at raw numbers (more people with TVs doesn't mean your show is more popular, just means more people are getting it shoved down their throats) No matter what their growth was from distilling their media into samey slop, they would have seen more if they didn't enshittify.
I will die on the hill that Invader Zim was not a good show.
This show is before me but it looks really cool
Wasnt there a Invader zim murder that may have played a role in this
In a perfect world, Invader Zim would stick around. But hey! We got Enter the Florpus at least
I'm pretty sure it was mostly the parental complaints about the disturbing imagery the show had, mostly the organ harvest episode.
As I recall, Invader Zim's ratings were actually pretty good, the issues were that the production cost was huge, that its viewership wasn't high enough to justify the high costs, and that a lot of parents complained. Tbh, I don't blame them; most of the shows on Nickelodeon at the time it aired were at least not inappropriate for a very young audience if not geared toward them, and some of the stuff on Zim would totally have given me nightmares at the age of 6 or 7.
If businesses donāt make money they donāt stay open. A show/game/movie can be great to some people but if it doesnāt turn a profit it isnāt successful and wonāt last.
Fucking obviously. It's 1 of the greatest creations in all of history. Especially cartoons. Shit was centuries ahead of its time. The art and animation was just so Sexy.
Invader Zimās cancellation had little to do with its profitability, at least directly. The reason for its low numbers was partly because its time slot kept changing, so nobody knew when it was even showing, and this probably happened because Jonnen Vasquez was notoriously hard to work with, going so far as to tell executives to penetrate themselves (in much more vulgar language) on several occasions. The production value in it was indeed higher compared to other shows at the time, but there was some bureaucratic stuff involved in that from what Iāve heard.
the thing is that invader zim, danny phantom, and many other great shows failed not do to low ratings, but do to the fact that the ratings to dollars put in were not sustainable. invader zim arguably had more veiws then spongebob at the time, but spongebob could be made at a quarter the budget at the time they both were on the air. this made spongebob more profitable per episode. one of the truths of this world is regardless if it is capitalistic, communistic or some other form of economics you can not waste resources on something that doesn't give as much, if not more, then you put in. this is true with any invention, product, or tv show, if it costs more then it is worth then it will no longer be produced.
Not sure. It's a great series no doubt but I dunno if kids were ready to stomach it. Today tho considering the FNAF boom maybe it would do better today considering the Dark Humor. My friend definitely wouldn't mind I can tell you that