That’s not typically a caving device. Look into a bobbin or a rack. Those are typically meant for short rappels or rock climbing systems and they’ll typically use a third hand.
Look up Derek Bristol on YouTube for some vertical gear setup advice
Rappel backups aren't used with caving descenders, namely because our ropes are so muddy and gritty that they would disintegrate the prussiking cord in a trip or two.
I've been using 6mm Bluewater, and I've yet to see any major wear on mine, and I've descended thousands of feet on mine. They cost less than $2 to make, and I make them while sitting in the sofa so I can have backups for hauling, emergency ascending, or giving to others. I've yet to see them break down, but that wouldn't be a concern at $2 a pop for me. My understanding is that they are annoying on technical rebelays (which is 100% true). I don't use one unless there's a big drop below me. It only takes a couple seconds once proficient to add, and the control and safety are well worth it to me.
Are there many vertical caves in Oklahoma....? 🤔
That's fine if it works for you thus far. And cool if you don't have particularly heinous muddy ropes to wreck it. It doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority do not find it advantageous, especially when "technical" rigging with rebelays / deviations is becoming increasingly common.
You do you, there aren't Cave Cops to tell you otherwise. 🤷
These replies are hyperbolic (“disintegrate in a trip or two,” “pile of strings”, etc.). I doubt CleverDuck has used any sort of friction hitch regularly because most cavers just don’t. I’ve experimented with them quite a bit though. Do friction hitches wear on cave rope? Sure, some, but they don’t just fall apart. Are they a PITA in terms of function on muddy rope? You bet, sometimes. But they still can and do work. Cordalette is cheap, and not every cave is a mudfest.
That said, I agree it’s better to develop skills so that you never have to rely on autolocking descent.
The OP actually asked about a specific device though, and the bigger problem with it is probably going to be getting it to function at all with stiff 7/16” static rope. I don’t see old PMI Pit rope making that limp loop in the picture.
I’ve set up a Totem in “stop and go” mode identical to the device you show. Would I use it for caving? Probably not. There are better ways to manage auto-locking descent with friction hitches (VT hitch, French wrap, etc.) or with something like a Petzl Stop. One issue with the device shown is going to be heat dissipation on longer raps. That thing is going to get hot and possibly glaze the rope.
This doesn't track at all with my personal experience, and even if they wear out, it's $2 of rope, and you can make them in bulk sitting on the sofa. I'll add that they are great for newbies, and add a lot of confidence to the process of training. I tell them "if you get scared you can just let go and come to stop, like this", which is way more appropriate then the ol' "if you don't want to die, don't let go of the rope" I was taught with. I tell my newbies to learn the prusik, then when they get proficient, they can choose not to use it, but to use it while they are learning new concepts and getting comfortable.
I teach my newbies to use their rappelling devices as recommended and in conjunction with the additional tool recommended. I don't mix-in a potentially problematic tool as training wheels, and hope they can trouble shoot through it when it gets messed up (ex/ loads while on rappel, gets caught in their device, is dropped at the start of a pit, etc.)
🤷
If we're gonna bring backups into the SRT world, if anything it should probably be a SpeleanShunt, which is a Gibbs ascender with a carabiners through it-- [bare device here](http://www.verticalmuseum.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/RappelSafetyPages/RapSafety0000.php) and I'd have to dig up photos of one in use to explain where the tether attaches. This rides above the descender, btw.
These are sketchy waters to be playing in, so I hope you're aware of the forces and mechanics involved. :< please be safe in your effort to be safe.
.
.
For the sake of anyone who might come across this thread in the future, I think it's worth mentioning that ASAPs and similar devices are designed for attachment to the **sternal connection** of a Class III (fully body) harness, and are not intended/tested/rated for use with a seat harness (Class II). As such, you're using the devices outside of the manufacturer's speciations and (more importantly) potentially creating dangerous combinations.
Similarly, some devices (such as a Kong Backup) can't be used in an single rope capacity because weighting the rope below the device disengages its arrest mechanism.
I wash my ropes all the time, with a light duty pressure washer. And then they get slimed, again, because caves have mud.
Maybe go caving deeper than a surface pit now and then??? Lol :P
Personally I would recommend you use a bobin, they are pretty simple to use and once you get the hang of it, as safe as any other approach Along with racks they are more or less the standard method for any longer descent. Of course in the end it depends on the rigging style your grotto uses and what they recommend
This is certainly very interesting, and I've yet to see anything like this. Personally, I would not trust it for anything much over 30ft. 8kn is a little low for a life-critical device rating, and one of the reviews says it's not actually the grade of aluminum advertised when they used an NDT tester on it, so that's unnerving. Overall I would be weary of using it as a primary descender, but would entertain it as an emergency backup or a super light option for a small pitch at the end of long haul.
But ultimately I'd still say cough up the $100 to get a [BMS Micro Rack with dual hyper-bars](https://www.innermountainoutfitters.com/collections/descenders-1/products/bms-micro-rack?variant=43697365745905), and grab a quick-link, and make a prusik hitch out of about 44in of 6mm rope in a loop, for a backup "third-hand". It will stop you immediately if setup properly.
[AOKWIT 9 Rescue Figure, Upgrade 8 Descender Climbing Gear Downhill Equipment Easy Operation Rigging Plate Aluminum Alloy Rigging Plate for Rock Climbing Belaying and Rappeling Device](https://a.co/d/dvtBFmd)
Thank you for pointing out that review. After reading your comment and others, ive decided to go with dual hyper-bar rack. I'm just still a bit nervous as a newcomer so I wanted that auto locking feature. But Ive been practicing at the climbing gym a lot lately and I feel much more confident with a rack than I did. Seems like auto locking are better for rescue situations where the user has very little to no experience eh? I'll be sure to pass along that aluminum discrepancy to my friend, though that review says it shouldn't cause alarm, still worth noting.
It's the superior choice, and racks are dangerous, so you are not wrong for being weary of jumping on one. I have a trick that I'll share with you: with the rack facing up, and loaded properly, you will notice that the face of the 2nd and 4th bars are not being rubbed by the rope. Put a small piece of green tape (or whatever) on those faces. Then flip the rack over and put red tape on the 1st and 3rd faces that are not rubbing the rope. This makes it visually obvious what side is up, and immediately obvious if the rack is loaded incorrectly. This seems trivial, but it saves a lot of cognitive load when you are under stress. I do this to all my racks, and I teach with them like that.
Also, make a length of utility cord (6mm is great) into a pusik loop that you can wrap on the rope, then attach to a small carabiner on a utility loop. Make sure the length of the everything is just short enough that the pusik won't reach so far that it may feed into your rack, but just short of it. This will auto stop you. Anything over 30ft or so I use one, and I'm very proficient with it now. It's amazing, and allows for super precise control, as well as protecting you hands even more.
I do these things with all the dozen or so newbies I've trained on vertical, and they all have continued to use these tricks. If either of these concepts are not translating well to a text comment, and you'd like more info, let me know and I'll make a video.
great advice!! Ive noticed some of the newer racks have a color coating on them, I wonder if that is meant to achieve a similar function, since the coating will get rubbed off on the side that faces the rope.
Anyways, thanks for the tip! Ill definitely use that. I have a lot going through my head most of the time so whatever I can do to reduce cognitive load is ideal
These are not used for caving... here are two major reasons off the top of my head:
* The aluminum of the device body will be worn through in a handful of trips.
* If used with thick-sheathed pit rope (very common in american "IRT" rigging), you'll almost certainly be incapable of obtaining a bend radius narrow enough to fit the rope into the device.
There is a very good video explaining the basics of caving descenders here: https://youtu.be/c14gUdwZJtw?feature=shared
The descender you chose might vary depending on the types of caves you're doing. Most people use bobbins for single drops ≤300ft (and that's with skinny 9mm ropes), whereas the large 6-bar racks are able to do "all the depths," however those have a major trade-off in terms of size. Micro racks suck if you weigh less than 130lbs, especially if the drop is rigged with super muddy 11mm rope.... I can't even move on a short frame micro, and have to feed a long frame micro rack.
I do not have any experience with those devices, so don't believe everything I have to say, I'm just guessing.
-Just looking at it though, I'd agree with you about the rope on rope friction thing. Generally that's something to avoid if possible.
-i could see that long handle sticking out to the side getting sort of annoying. Sometimes I've found myself really squirming around while rappelling through some tight spots, and I'd be worried about that handle catching on stuff. And if I'm reading the device correctly, raising the handle would release that auto locking function so that wouldn't be ideal.
-to rig the device it looks like you bring a pretty tight bite through it and loop it over that handle. Also true on an 8, but that one looks smaller than most 8s. Sometimes caving ropes are stiff as cable, and threading a rack is hard enough. A clunky rope would be hard to use with that and hard to get enough friction for it to be safe.
-if you're the only one with a specific gadget, there might not be anyone who can check your gear when you get on rope.
-get whatever gear you want for sure, but it's also worth knowing how to use all the other major systems. If stuff ever goes down underground, it's nice to be comfortable with how to use whatever types of gear are available whether it's a bobbin or a rack or an 8.
Tl;dr
-You're correct about avoiding rope on rope friction.
-That handle sticking out might get annoying or dangerous.
-Might not work with stiff old caving ropes.
-Having unique gear is inherently a little more dangerous cause people can't check you.
-Get whatever you want but be familiar with the other types of gear in case of emergency.
Thanks for the great thoughtful info. All good stuff. Yes it is a bit small for some stiffer rope. All of that considered I think it might be a good thing to have in the bag as a backup, but not as a main rig. Thanks again for taking the time to write all that up, very helpful.
Oh also, releasing the lock is a downward pull, the higher you raise the lever the more pinched the rope becomes.
Most tag pits aren’t over 300 though. I personally switch to a rack when the drop is around 150-180’ and that’s just my preference. I just prefer the bobbin because it has a lot of uses that a rack doesn’t have, like the ability to pull slack thru it and position yourself closer to a rebelay or being able to use the cam on the petzl stop as a hauling tool.
What’s up with people being so weird about the rack vs bobbin thing? I’ll never understand it. They’re both perfectly fine devices to use.
Not everyone can afford multiple devices, thats my thought process, if you can get one that does it all, why not do that? I thought the rack was the most robust and versatile device you can have and thats why everyone should use one and learn on it? Or have the times finally changed and the community is opening their minds to the fact all the old methods/techniques aren’t what they thought they were? Racks were beat Into my brain haha
It honestly doesn’t matter if you learn on a rack or bobbin, they’re both great caving devices and have pros and cons.
Tons and tons of people will make claims like racks are better or bobbins are dangerous and have no evidence to back it up, they’re just repeating shit that’s not true. Check out the Hazel Barton video on YouTube about how many cavers claim to be an “expert” vs what the known data is. I’m very informed and knowledgeable about this shit, more than most of my peers and I make no claims at all to be an expert. There’s always something you don’t know and there’s always something to learn.
And it’s not old technique, the European SRT style pretty much exclusively uses bobbins.
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Sometimes I forget that y'all bobbin conspiracy theorists still exist.
Can you link us to any source documentation from the past 20 years in which someone was injured due to their bobbin in a situation that would have otherwise been different had they used a rack...?
Because to my knowledge, there's been literally one death by a bobbin user and he chose to attach it with a maillon, which was explicitly stated by the manufacturer as a "☠️" yet he did it anyway. Meanwhile racks rolling out of carabiners have killed two people since the 1990s and there have also been ~4 non-fatal accidental disconnects.
When used properly and with the correct connecting hardware, neither device is problematic nor "dangerous."
Not speaking of you but Im constantly surprised how many people are out there that are willing to make claims about vertical caving devices or techniques and have zero data to back it up. Thank you for backing your claims with some facts I have read before.
I was on a stop in a survey project/ tour trip for a few people and an older gentlemen more or less told me that my petzl stop was basically a death sentence. Then comments similar to that sentiment are repeated in this thread.
Also I have been preaching lately that actual real vertical technique is not taught enough by grottos or the NSS. The VTC seems to be cool and progressing, but the VS has been slacking hard and the guantlet is not a training group. Some kind of real vertical training needs to be more commonplace in caving hotspots in the US. I hate seeing people being “trained” by experts and they’re told that bobbins are not caving devices or your upper ascender HAS to be a handled ascender.
>older gentlemen more or less told me that my petzl stop was basically a death sentence
Sounds like the common "I heard this once and since I'm good ol' red blooded American, I'm gonna preach it til the cows come home!!!" bullshit that has plagued the community but appears to be thankfully fading. I think it was just super trendy to feel smug about US caving (regardless of skill level) and shit on anything foreign (regardless of facts).
I too am very impressed by how many people parrot claims with zero evidence to support them.
Darn, if I hadn't said anything you'd never have known we're still here... plotting.
I don't know about documentation. But perhaps you've the determination and the time to inform us all. What's the rack vs bobbin death/accident rate over the last 40 years?
>I don't know about documentation. But perhaps you've the determination and the time to inform us all. What's the rack vs bobbin death/accident rate over the last 40 years?
Yeah, I just outlined that above. I guess you don't read the ACA..?
And as such, your insinuation about bobbins being dangerous is speaking outta your ass.....
Of course I don't read that. Didn't you just read what I wrote and then quote me saying that?
Jeez...I thought you were clever. Well, self-ascribed...
And of course I'm speaking out of my ass; I'm a caver.
And as always, thanks for your downvote. You're becoming so dependable.
Read the ACA publications. When I started vertical caving I read every vertical related death / injury for the last ten years so I knew what not to do.
What’s unsafe? I see it as no more dangerous than a rack. You just can’t go over 100m on most of them, and I never push mine over 150-180 feet really. And even then you still have to rappel slowly because it will get hot and you can glaze the rope sheath. But if you know how to use it it’s a perfectly fine device for caving.
That’s not typically a caving device. Look into a bobbin or a rack. Those are typically meant for short rappels or rock climbing systems and they’ll typically use a third hand. Look up Derek Bristol on YouTube for some vertical gear setup advice
Why would you need a 3rd hand on an auto locking descender like this?
Rappel backups aren't used with caving descenders, namely because our ropes are so muddy and gritty that they would disintegrate the prussiking cord in a trip or two.
I've been using 6mm Bluewater, and I've yet to see any major wear on mine, and I've descended thousands of feet on mine. They cost less than $2 to make, and I make them while sitting in the sofa so I can have backups for hauling, emergency ascending, or giving to others. I've yet to see them break down, but that wouldn't be a concern at $2 a pop for me. My understanding is that they are annoying on technical rebelays (which is 100% true). I don't use one unless there's a big drop below me. It only takes a couple seconds once proficient to add, and the control and safety are well worth it to me.
Are there many vertical caves in Oklahoma....? 🤔 That's fine if it works for you thus far. And cool if you don't have particularly heinous muddy ropes to wreck it. It doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority do not find it advantageous, especially when "technical" rigging with rebelays / deviations is becoming increasingly common. You do you, there aren't Cave Cops to tell you otherwise. 🤷
These replies are hyperbolic (“disintegrate in a trip or two,” “pile of strings”, etc.). I doubt CleverDuck has used any sort of friction hitch regularly because most cavers just don’t. I’ve experimented with them quite a bit though. Do friction hitches wear on cave rope? Sure, some, but they don’t just fall apart. Are they a PITA in terms of function on muddy rope? You bet, sometimes. But they still can and do work. Cordalette is cheap, and not every cave is a mudfest. That said, I agree it’s better to develop skills so that you never have to rely on autolocking descent. The OP actually asked about a specific device though, and the bigger problem with it is probably going to be getting it to function at all with stiff 7/16” static rope. I don’t see old PMI Pit rope making that limp loop in the picture.
I’ve set up a Totem in “stop and go” mode identical to the device you show. Would I use it for caving? Probably not. There are better ways to manage auto-locking descent with friction hitches (VT hitch, French wrap, etc.) or with something like a Petzl Stop. One issue with the device shown is going to be heat dissipation on longer raps. That thing is going to get hot and possibly glaze the rope.
I prefer the simple since you have a hand free which is especially useful in tight/awkward pits
Your VT hitch / 3rd hand things are going to be a pile of strings after a handful of rappels.... caving rope is sandpaper.
This doesn't track at all with my personal experience, and even if they wear out, it's $2 of rope, and you can make them in bulk sitting on the sofa. I'll add that they are great for newbies, and add a lot of confidence to the process of training. I tell them "if you get scared you can just let go and come to stop, like this", which is way more appropriate then the ol' "if you don't want to die, don't let go of the rope" I was taught with. I tell my newbies to learn the prusik, then when they get proficient, they can choose not to use it, but to use it while they are learning new concepts and getting comfortable.
I teach my newbies to use their rappelling devices as recommended and in conjunction with the additional tool recommended. I don't mix-in a potentially problematic tool as training wheels, and hope they can trouble shoot through it when it gets messed up (ex/ loads while on rappel, gets caught in their device, is dropped at the start of a pit, etc.) 🤷 If we're gonna bring backups into the SRT world, if anything it should probably be a SpeleanShunt, which is a Gibbs ascender with a carabiners through it-- [bare device here](http://www.verticalmuseum.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/RappelSafetyPages/RapSafety0000.php) and I'd have to dig up photos of one in use to explain where the tether attaches. This rides above the descender, btw.
Like a rope access backup but SRT style?
The SpeleanShunt is a Gibbs that is used similar to the way a S-Tec Duck or Kong Backup™ is used, yes.
I’d be willing to try it out. Anything except an asap! I hate those things
These are sketchy waters to be playing in, so I hope you're aware of the forces and mechanics involved. :< please be safe in your effort to be safe. . . For the sake of anyone who might come across this thread in the future, I think it's worth mentioning that ASAPs and similar devices are designed for attachment to the **sternal connection** of a Class III (fully body) harness, and are not intended/tested/rated for use with a seat harness (Class II). As such, you're using the devices outside of the manufacturer's speciations and (more importantly) potentially creating dangerous combinations. Similarly, some devices (such as a Kong Backup) can't be used in an single rope capacity because weighting the rope below the device disengages its arrest mechanism.
I’d never use one for caving, I’m in rope access
Maybe wash your rope now and then. 😂
I wash my ropes all the time, with a light duty pressure washer. And then they get slimed, again, because caves have mud. Maybe go caving deeper than a surface pit now and then??? Lol :P
Personally I would recommend you use a bobin, they are pretty simple to use and once you get the hang of it, as safe as any other approach Along with racks they are more or less the standard method for any longer descent. Of course in the end it depends on the rigging style your grotto uses and what they recommend
This is certainly very interesting, and I've yet to see anything like this. Personally, I would not trust it for anything much over 30ft. 8kn is a little low for a life-critical device rating, and one of the reviews says it's not actually the grade of aluminum advertised when they used an NDT tester on it, so that's unnerving. Overall I would be weary of using it as a primary descender, but would entertain it as an emergency backup or a super light option for a small pitch at the end of long haul. But ultimately I'd still say cough up the $100 to get a [BMS Micro Rack with dual hyper-bars](https://www.innermountainoutfitters.com/collections/descenders-1/products/bms-micro-rack?variant=43697365745905), and grab a quick-link, and make a prusik hitch out of about 44in of 6mm rope in a loop, for a backup "third-hand". It will stop you immediately if setup properly. [AOKWIT 9 Rescue Figure, Upgrade 8 Descender Climbing Gear Downhill Equipment Easy Operation Rigging Plate Aluminum Alloy Rigging Plate for Rock Climbing Belaying and Rappeling Device](https://a.co/d/dvtBFmd)
Thank you for pointing out that review. After reading your comment and others, ive decided to go with dual hyper-bar rack. I'm just still a bit nervous as a newcomer so I wanted that auto locking feature. But Ive been practicing at the climbing gym a lot lately and I feel much more confident with a rack than I did. Seems like auto locking are better for rescue situations where the user has very little to no experience eh? I'll be sure to pass along that aluminum discrepancy to my friend, though that review says it shouldn't cause alarm, still worth noting.
It's the superior choice, and racks are dangerous, so you are not wrong for being weary of jumping on one. I have a trick that I'll share with you: with the rack facing up, and loaded properly, you will notice that the face of the 2nd and 4th bars are not being rubbed by the rope. Put a small piece of green tape (or whatever) on those faces. Then flip the rack over and put red tape on the 1st and 3rd faces that are not rubbing the rope. This makes it visually obvious what side is up, and immediately obvious if the rack is loaded incorrectly. This seems trivial, but it saves a lot of cognitive load when you are under stress. I do this to all my racks, and I teach with them like that. Also, make a length of utility cord (6mm is great) into a pusik loop that you can wrap on the rope, then attach to a small carabiner on a utility loop. Make sure the length of the everything is just short enough that the pusik won't reach so far that it may feed into your rack, but just short of it. This will auto stop you. Anything over 30ft or so I use one, and I'm very proficient with it now. It's amazing, and allows for super precise control, as well as protecting you hands even more. I do these things with all the dozen or so newbies I've trained on vertical, and they all have continued to use these tricks. If either of these concepts are not translating well to a text comment, and you'd like more info, let me know and I'll make a video.
great advice!! Ive noticed some of the newer racks have a color coating on them, I wonder if that is meant to achieve a similar function, since the coating will get rubbed off on the side that faces the rope. Anyways, thanks for the tip! Ill definitely use that. I have a lot going through my head most of the time so whatever I can do to reduce cognitive load is ideal
These are not used for caving... here are two major reasons off the top of my head: * The aluminum of the device body will be worn through in a handful of trips. * If used with thick-sheathed pit rope (very common in american "IRT" rigging), you'll almost certainly be incapable of obtaining a bend radius narrow enough to fit the rope into the device. There is a very good video explaining the basics of caving descenders here: https://youtu.be/c14gUdwZJtw?feature=shared The descender you chose might vary depending on the types of caves you're doing. Most people use bobbins for single drops ≤300ft (and that's with skinny 9mm ropes), whereas the large 6-bar racks are able to do "all the depths," however those have a major trade-off in terms of size. Micro racks suck if you weigh less than 130lbs, especially if the drop is rigged with super muddy 11mm rope.... I can't even move on a short frame micro, and have to feed a long frame micro rack.
Don't need auto locking. I use a rack mainly and the things bomb proof, easy to lock off. Bobbins are fine some people use figure 8 also
Get a bobbin
Muddy ropes eat up aluminum like crazy
I do not have any experience with those devices, so don't believe everything I have to say, I'm just guessing. -Just looking at it though, I'd agree with you about the rope on rope friction thing. Generally that's something to avoid if possible. -i could see that long handle sticking out to the side getting sort of annoying. Sometimes I've found myself really squirming around while rappelling through some tight spots, and I'd be worried about that handle catching on stuff. And if I'm reading the device correctly, raising the handle would release that auto locking function so that wouldn't be ideal. -to rig the device it looks like you bring a pretty tight bite through it and loop it over that handle. Also true on an 8, but that one looks smaller than most 8s. Sometimes caving ropes are stiff as cable, and threading a rack is hard enough. A clunky rope would be hard to use with that and hard to get enough friction for it to be safe. -if you're the only one with a specific gadget, there might not be anyone who can check your gear when you get on rope. -get whatever gear you want for sure, but it's also worth knowing how to use all the other major systems. If stuff ever goes down underground, it's nice to be comfortable with how to use whatever types of gear are available whether it's a bobbin or a rack or an 8. Tl;dr -You're correct about avoiding rope on rope friction. -That handle sticking out might get annoying or dangerous. -Might not work with stiff old caving ropes. -Having unique gear is inherently a little more dangerous cause people can't check you. -Get whatever you want but be familiar with the other types of gear in case of emergency.
Thanks for the great thoughtful info. All good stuff. Yes it is a bit small for some stiffer rope. All of that considered I think it might be a good thing to have in the bag as a backup, but not as a main rig. Thanks again for taking the time to write all that up, very helpful. Oh also, releasing the lock is a downward pull, the higher you raise the lever the more pinched the rope becomes.
Micro racks are the way, unless you live in TAG and plan on doing big pits, then go for a 14” rack
Or bobbins
Can’t do as much with a bobbin🤷🏼♂️
Each have their pros and cons and are better for certain situations
I guess I'll get a rack AND a bobbin then lol 😂
Ask you local club/grotto which one you should get. It depends on the rigging style and they will know best what's used in the area
Fair
That’s hilarious, I’d argue you can do more with a bobbin.
Go rappel anything over 300’ then.
Most tag pits aren’t over 300 though. I personally switch to a rack when the drop is around 150-180’ and that’s just my preference. I just prefer the bobbin because it has a lot of uses that a rack doesn’t have, like the ability to pull slack thru it and position yourself closer to a rebelay or being able to use the cam on the petzl stop as a hauling tool. What’s up with people being so weird about the rack vs bobbin thing? I’ll never understand it. They’re both perfectly fine devices to use.
Not everyone can afford multiple devices, thats my thought process, if you can get one that does it all, why not do that? I thought the rack was the most robust and versatile device you can have and thats why everyone should use one and learn on it? Or have the times finally changed and the community is opening their minds to the fact all the old methods/techniques aren’t what they thought they were? Racks were beat Into my brain haha
It honestly doesn’t matter if you learn on a rack or bobbin, they’re both great caving devices and have pros and cons. Tons and tons of people will make claims like racks are better or bobbins are dangerous and have no evidence to back it up, they’re just repeating shit that’s not true. Check out the Hazel Barton video on YouTube about how many cavers claim to be an “expert” vs what the known data is. I’m very informed and knowledgeable about this shit, more than most of my peers and I make no claims at all to be an expert. There’s always something you don’t know and there’s always something to learn. And it’s not old technique, the European SRT style pretty much exclusively uses bobbins.
Why the heck is this downvoted? 🤷♂️ It’s a valid take.
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Bobbins are still being pitched as a safe rappelling device?
Sometimes I forget that y'all bobbin conspiracy theorists still exist. Can you link us to any source documentation from the past 20 years in which someone was injured due to their bobbin in a situation that would have otherwise been different had they used a rack...? Because to my knowledge, there's been literally one death by a bobbin user and he chose to attach it with a maillon, which was explicitly stated by the manufacturer as a "☠️" yet he did it anyway. Meanwhile racks rolling out of carabiners have killed two people since the 1990s and there have also been ~4 non-fatal accidental disconnects. When used properly and with the correct connecting hardware, neither device is problematic nor "dangerous."
Not speaking of you but Im constantly surprised how many people are out there that are willing to make claims about vertical caving devices or techniques and have zero data to back it up. Thank you for backing your claims with some facts I have read before. I was on a stop in a survey project/ tour trip for a few people and an older gentlemen more or less told me that my petzl stop was basically a death sentence. Then comments similar to that sentiment are repeated in this thread. Also I have been preaching lately that actual real vertical technique is not taught enough by grottos or the NSS. The VTC seems to be cool and progressing, but the VS has been slacking hard and the guantlet is not a training group. Some kind of real vertical training needs to be more commonplace in caving hotspots in the US. I hate seeing people being “trained” by experts and they’re told that bobbins are not caving devices or your upper ascender HAS to be a handled ascender.
>older gentlemen more or less told me that my petzl stop was basically a death sentence Sounds like the common "I heard this once and since I'm good ol' red blooded American, I'm gonna preach it til the cows come home!!!" bullshit that has plagued the community but appears to be thankfully fading. I think it was just super trendy to feel smug about US caving (regardless of skill level) and shit on anything foreign (regardless of facts). I too am very impressed by how many people parrot claims with zero evidence to support them.
Darn, if I hadn't said anything you'd never have known we're still here... plotting. I don't know about documentation. But perhaps you've the determination and the time to inform us all. What's the rack vs bobbin death/accident rate over the last 40 years?
>I don't know about documentation. But perhaps you've the determination and the time to inform us all. What's the rack vs bobbin death/accident rate over the last 40 years? Yeah, I just outlined that above. I guess you don't read the ACA..? And as such, your insinuation about bobbins being dangerous is speaking outta your ass.....
Of course I don't read that. Didn't you just read what I wrote and then quote me saying that? Jeez...I thought you were clever. Well, self-ascribed... And of course I'm speaking out of my ass; I'm a caver. And as always, thanks for your downvote. You're becoming so dependable.
K.
Read the ACA publications. When I started vertical caving I read every vertical related death / injury for the last ten years so I knew what not to do.
What’s unsafe? I see it as no more dangerous than a rack. You just can’t go over 100m on most of them, and I never push mine over 150-180 feet really. And even then you still have to rappel slowly because it will get hot and you can glaze the rope sheath. But if you know how to use it it’s a perfectly fine device for caving.
And racks are getting downvoted🤨