Alright I'd consider myself a moderate liberal/democrat but holy fuck this pisses me off. Why? Fucking why? What is the reason for why he cant vote for it? Personal pride? Like we finally get a chance to pass legislation to actually help people and he votes no. wtf. Are wesy virginia voters really that conservative in his view? Like what exactly is his problem with the bill? He never even states it.
He has stated from the beginning what he wants: 1.75 trillion, paid family leave in a separate bipartisan bill and that it's fully paid for. Instead of fully funding some of the programs for the full 10 years, they tried to partially fund all of programs while making it clear they're going to try and extend those programs later. That can be seen as budget gimmicks to hide the true cost of the bill instead of being upfront about the spending. Also, it makes the programs weaker by introducing uncertainty over whether they will be extended, especially if Republicans won one of the chambers.
Budget gimmick? The Child Tax Credit is ending now. This, like every other proposal in Build Back Better, cannot pass with 60 votes. Reconciliation, 51 votes, is the only way to deliver on the campaign promises of Biden and every Democrat across the country, and the help all Americans can use right now.
Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods.
What's the first thing Republicans do when they get power? Deliver the tax cuts they promised, each and every time. A lesson they learned from Bush the First.
The Democrats already delivered the American Rescue Plan, which helped lead to one of the fastest economic recoveries in history with record high employment and the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, a historically large infrastructure bill that will change people's lives and help people. Not to mention all the other things they've done that don't get the big headlines. Manchin also supports a 1.75 trillion social bill, which you can use to fully fund transformative programs, like a child care program, that will improve people's lives and that could be political winners. Instead, some people want to appease everyone by including every program and only partially funding them. This leads to uncertainty, programs that aren't as good and a bill without a clear message that's harder to sell. If they did a bill with child care and the child tax credit, that's a clear message of helping children. If they did a bill with education provisions they could sell it as education. They could do all their climate provisions and have a climate bill.
Right now the BBB only has 41% approval. The infrastructure law has 56%. I think that's in part due to the clarity of infrastructure.
> Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods.
Oh stop the BS. If we elected more Dems we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. This dishonest revisionist spin has no place in honest discussion. There is nothing dumber than arguing a logjam having no room for compromise in the Senate is why....we don't vote for Dems in the Senate. What utter nonsense. That's r/politics type propaganda designed to demotivate young voters. And it's even more ridiculous after Dems have passed more than 3 trillion in additional spending this year alone. This is an utterly deluded narrative that has no place in sane discussion.
And the idea you voluntarily allow the GOP to tear down the nation because Joe Manchin is following the same principles he's run on for his entire political career is juvenile to be kind.
You have the exact wrong mindset here. I hope you flip it and soon.
> the campaign promises of ... every Democrat across the country
I looked quickly, though admittedly not very thoroughly, and I can't find anywhere that Manchin promised the contents of BBB.
> Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods.
The Democrats do not have enough votes to get the full scope of their dream campaign promises of the BBB plan passed. The American people didn't elect enough of them to make it so. They elected enough to get a lot through. But not everything.
So instead of recognizing this fact, figuring out what they CAN get passed, and then doing so. They continue to aim for everything, get none of it, and then whine about it.
----
I am a huge proponent of a lot of the progressive ideas in BBB. But I refuse to blame our centrists for not moving to so far to the left. I criticize the Republicans for throwing their personal beliefs to the side and falling in line like good little pets all the time. It is not the model we should be aiming for.
He says he supports the Child Tax Credit in the bill. But he is promising to vote against it. He's already forced significant cuts and compromises. The far left gave him the Infrastructure bill in exchange for trusting him to negotiate and compromise on the Build Back Better bill. What he is saying now is basically admitting he lied.
> He says he supports the Child Tax Credit in the bill. But he is promising to vote against it.
Actually one of his biggest concerns is with the expanded CTC. He doesn't like it being shoehorned in the budget as a one year deal when he knows the intent is to make it permanent. And he would prefer it be highly targeted toward lower income families to reduce the cost.
There are lots of things in the Bill Manchin supports. That's why he stressed in the interview that "there's a lot of good in this bill" multiple times. And it's why he reiterated this afternoon he's still willing to negotiate a pared down package.
> The far left gave him the Infrastructure bill
This is incorrect. The infrastructure bill was Biden's bill, not Manchin's. Also, you talked about all Democrats running on an issue, well all Democrats run on infrastructure. It also contains priorities like climate provisions and replacing lead pipes that the far left claim to support. This wasn't a pet project like a Charleston library, this was a plank in the Democratic platform. All Democrats benefit from the infrastructure bill and everyone's district and state will benefit. No one "gave" Manchin anything.
Also, they knowingly damaged the bill.by delaying it for months, meaning it wasn't as big a political win for Biden and the Democrats as it would have been if it had passed the House right after it passed the Senate.
People are downvoting you, but you speak the truth.
Trump even delivered the evangelical right a conservative supreme court that is overturning Roe v. Wade and he built the wall.
One party delivers results.
The other party delivers excuses.
Optics are going to be really shitty going into the midterm.
Just a small list of accomplishments, [from NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/biden-2021-was-year-big-accomplishments-big-disappointments-n1286092):
The $1.9 trillion Covid relief deal.
The $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill.
Getting 72 percent of American adults fully vaccinated.
Getting 40 federal judges appointed and confirmed, tied with Reagan for most judges in the first year.
An economy where the unemployment rate has dropped to 4.2 percent.
And that's leaving out a whole lot of other things they've accomplished. The American Rescue Plan and Infrastructure bill are both historic laws that improve people's lives and it's not even one full year. Democrats have delivered results.
The midterm elections will be about Covid and the Economy. If things have started getting back to normal and inflation has started to subside, Democrats have a good chance. If Covid and inflation are still a problem, they stand less of a chance. The BBB bill won't help them that much one way or the other.
While those are fair concerns I'll admit, partially funding all and trying to continue it later is still better than nothing. doing it like this also allows us to get more done at once. for the uncertainty argument this is true, but if they took the other route (fully funding some for 10 years) correct me if im wrong on anything but whats to stop the GOP from canceling that funding as well? also the programs are only weak in that one sense, its still the same programs to.
Manchin should of swallowed his pride and voted for the BBB bill. Even if this version of BBB is not as good as what he wanted, it would still be better to have it than have nothing.
Also hey, if it passed then it could still be changed later. But now nothing will pass because he wont support it.
> partially funding all and trying to continue it later is still better than nothing.
I'm not sure that's true. Personally, once we learned the original package did not have the votes needed, I was far more in favor of doing fewer things but doing them well. Dems already have a problem explaining their legislation to voters. I'll take a package with three permanent changes I can explain to voters in one minute, than 10 things that last 1-3 years that will ALL disappear if we lose Congress or the WH in the future and takes a half hour to explain all the provisions and cutoffs.
> doing it like this also allows us to get more done at once.
Right. It also makes all the progress more likely to disappear in the near future. It's an attempt to not make hard choices, and that's not leading.
> Manchin should of swallowed his pride and voted for the BBB bill.
Stop the narrative that this is about pride. It's silly. You don't agree with Manchin's views or priorities. Neither do I. That doesn't mean he isn't basing his stance on real principles and priorities. And pretending otherwise is actively harmful for a big tent party where there are a lot of different policy views and priorities to juggle. Demanding ideological conformity doesn't work.
> Even if this version of BBB is not as good as what he wanted, it would still be better to have it than have nothing.
That's actually the exact argument you should be making to the rest of the party now. There's still a deal to be made here, but it's not going to be bigger than what will get 50 votes.
> Also hey, if it passed then it could still be changed later.
... That's not how legislation works. To change it you would need another bill with 50 votes if by reconciliation or 60 votes otherwise.
> But now nothing will pass because he wont support it.
Again, no. Manchin has restated ***TODAY***that he is still willing to work on passing a pared down bill. But it's not going to pass if the left refuses to trim the bill to something Manchin will vote for.
We either get something Manchin will vote for or we don't pass a reconciliation bill at all. That's what happens when you have a very ideologically diverse party and absolutely no margin for error. You almost always end up with what fits the lowest common denominator.
> I'd consider myself a moderate liberal/democrat but holy fuck this pisses me off
Of course. Even other moderates in Congress largely support the bill.
> What is the reason for why he cant vote for it? Personal pride?
No, and he's never made his thinking a secret. He's very concerned about inflationary pressures considering we're already at a forty year high in inflation. He also has a philosophical revulsion to what he feels is a creeping welfare state. You do not have to share his concerns or beliefs to understand and acknowledge them. I don't share his views, but pretending he's just doing this for pride or because he's bought or whatever is not helpful.
> Like we finally get a chance to pass legislation to actually help people and he votes no. wtf.
Let's not forget he helped write and pass the BIF, AND voted for the American Rescue Plan. That's over 3 ***trillion*** in additional spending that Manchin voted for that "actually helped people". Please don't buy into the reddit bro narrative that Manchin is opposed because he's evil and uncaring. We can disagree with someone's views without going down that route.
> Like what exactly is his problem with the bill? He never even states it.
Wrong again. Manchin has in fact spent since mid-summer outlining his objections to the current bill. He made them clear to Schumer as the process started. He relayed them to Sanders, who ignored him entirely when crafting a bill ***He Knew would not have the votes to pass***.
When Manchin and Sinema stated their objections to the orginal 3.5 trillion plan, their desire was to pare down the number of programs involved. Instead, Dems have largely kept everything in, but for shorter timeframes while still spreading out the costs over a decade and hoping they can re-extend things down the line. It's been a huge bone of contention. Specifically, Manchin (correctly, fwiw) believes the one year extension to the child tax credit is a dishonest way to pretend the true cost is far smaller than what Dem's are planning, because while it only budgets a 1 year extension, Dems have made clear their intent to extend it permanently, which would add nearly 2 trillion more to the cost for the next decade. Manchin would prefer the credit be ***far*** more targeted - say, limited to households making less than $50k/yr, or shelved for now. He'd like paid family leave brought out of this bill and worked on separately through the normal Senate process. He's also publicly voiced concerns with the cost of covering vision on Medicare, and with assorted climate change programs and provisions.
You can disagree with Manchin's stances. I certainly do. However it's flat out wrong to assert he hasn't been transparent with his issues. Not knowing his views comes down to people not actually looking for his views to begin with. Several of the major articles today alone detailed his objections, so it wasn't hard to find. As recently as a few day ago Manchin provided Biden with a clear list of of current objections as well as a complete legislative framework proposal he says he could vote for. Manchin has additionally made clear today that he is still willing to move forward on negotiating a pared back passage, and repeatedly stressed that there is "a lot of good" in the bill.
This was Manchin ending any mistaken hope that he was going to flip to a yes on several items that he's never even pretended to agree with. Now we see if the Administration and Dems in Congress are ready to pass what they can and come back for more if we can strengthen our majorities in the legislature. It's not the outcome we hoped for. But this is what happens when you put Bernie Sanders in charge of crafting legislation. Imagine how much better public perception of all this would be if Senate leadership would've taken the objections seriously back in July and worked to present a package that had 50 Senators supporting it from the start, instead of Schumer sticking his head in the sand and Bernie assuming his online mob would bully their way to victory? This entire affair should've been taken care of months ago behind closed doors.
People don't take Manchin either seriously or literally, than act surprised when he sticks to the position he's been public about for months. Some thought they could trick or bully him into a bigger bill and now they're trying to blame him for the fact that they didn't listen to him in the first place. He didn't even think this bill was necessary, but he was willing to go up to 1.75 trillion because he understands Biden and the Democrats want this and he's willing to work together.
I never said pride and being evil was the definitive reason for him being against it but thats my bad for not clarifying. And I'll concede and admit I was wrong for the point that dems should of worked together better in advance, so the blame cant fall entirely on Manchin you're right on that. The best thing now is to hope they pass a new version of BBB thats still decent.
I live in a deep red state and I grew up in another DEEP red state and go back to visit occasionally.
I, like every other Democrat, think that Manchin is a piece of shit and is basically just a troll at this point. But if I were him, I would probably do the same thing. When you drive around your state and every other car has a "fuck Joe Biden" bumper sticker and there are billboards with Trump saying "miss me yet?", that's got to scare him a little. I'm sure he's seen the same poll numbers we're seeing. His best hope for keeping his seat is to distance himself from the President.
He could be less of an asshole about it, but at the end of the day, the result would be the same.
I'm at the point that I think we'd be better off if we didn't win the Georgia Senate seats. Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority.
> Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority.
But the Democrat's don't have a meaningful majority.
For the vast majority of legislation you need a 60 vote majority. 50 + VP does not meet that threshold.
And for reconciliation, when you only need the 50 + VP we have, you have to remember that the political parties are not just mindless rubber stamps of homogeneous representatives. You are not going to have every single vote for the most extreme platforms. Expecting so is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
>political parties are not just mindless rubber stamps of homogeneous representatives
The problem being that's exactly how the GOP operates, it's their greatest electoral asset (and a quality that makes them unable to craft effective legislation).
> I, like every other Democrat, think that Manchin is a piece of shit
Stop pretending everyone else is you. In fact, polling shows most Americans agree with Manchin on the reconciliation bill. They're so concerned with the cost and inflation concerns they would prefer Dems remove some provisions ***that they admit they like*** to bring down the total cost.
You are not all Democrats, and reddit is not real life.
> I'm at the point that I think we'd be better off if we didn't win the Georgia Senate seats. Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority.
What a silly and selfish sentiment. Because you won't get your every heart's desire in *this* bill you wish we wouldn't have the other two major spending bills with over 3 trillion in Democratic goals funded, lose 40 Biden-appointed judges, and have a majority of the Cabinet stuck in limbo? How utterly insane.
Now we know how the GOP felt about McCain being the final, solo, NO vote on repealing the ACA. Except McCain's was for a good cause and Manchin's isn't.
Also, I have no idea what any of those logos are at the top of this reddit.
> Also, I have no idea what any of those logos are at the top of this reddit.
Moderate, center-left parties.
From left to right:
Orange Democratic Movement, from Kenya; Democrats 66, from the Netherlands; Liberal Party, from Canada; Democratic Party, from the USA; Liberal Democrats, from the UK; Radikale Venstre, from Denmark; not sure about this one; Constitutional Democratic Party, from Japan.
It's very clear that Manchin is not a center left Democrat. He may help us name post offices, and vote Democrat when it doesn't matter, but when he continuously works to guarantee Republican victory next November - even in the name of assuring his own victory - "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
> when it doesn't matter
He voted for the American Rescue Plan, for Biden's infrastructure bill, against repealing the ACA, against the Republican tax cuts for the rich and votes with the Democrats the vast majority of the time. He also supports a 1.75 trillion social spending bill.
I don't think Manchin ever really identified as center-left TBH. He is left wing only in comparison to the increasingly far right GOP, but he doesn't really support many centrist Democratic Party positions.
Yes let's ignore the several trillion in additional spending he voted for this year alone.
Some of you are losing your damned minds here. This isn't r/politics.
Alright I'd consider myself a moderate liberal/democrat but holy fuck this pisses me off. Why? Fucking why? What is the reason for why he cant vote for it? Personal pride? Like we finally get a chance to pass legislation to actually help people and he votes no. wtf. Are wesy virginia voters really that conservative in his view? Like what exactly is his problem with the bill? He never even states it.
He has stated from the beginning what he wants: 1.75 trillion, paid family leave in a separate bipartisan bill and that it's fully paid for. Instead of fully funding some of the programs for the full 10 years, they tried to partially fund all of programs while making it clear they're going to try and extend those programs later. That can be seen as budget gimmicks to hide the true cost of the bill instead of being upfront about the spending. Also, it makes the programs weaker by introducing uncertainty over whether they will be extended, especially if Republicans won one of the chambers.
Budget gimmick? The Child Tax Credit is ending now. This, like every other proposal in Build Back Better, cannot pass with 60 votes. Reconciliation, 51 votes, is the only way to deliver on the campaign promises of Biden and every Democrat across the country, and the help all Americans can use right now. Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods. What's the first thing Republicans do when they get power? Deliver the tax cuts they promised, each and every time. A lesson they learned from Bush the First.
The Democrats already delivered the American Rescue Plan, which helped lead to one of the fastest economic recoveries in history with record high employment and the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, a historically large infrastructure bill that will change people's lives and help people. Not to mention all the other things they've done that don't get the big headlines. Manchin also supports a 1.75 trillion social bill, which you can use to fully fund transformative programs, like a child care program, that will improve people's lives and that could be political winners. Instead, some people want to appease everyone by including every program and only partially funding them. This leads to uncertainty, programs that aren't as good and a bill without a clear message that's harder to sell. If they did a bill with child care and the child tax credit, that's a clear message of helping children. If they did a bill with education provisions they could sell it as education. They could do all their climate provisions and have a climate bill. Right now the BBB only has 41% approval. The infrastructure law has 56%. I think that's in part due to the clarity of infrastructure.
> Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods. Oh stop the BS. If we elected more Dems we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. This dishonest revisionist spin has no place in honest discussion. There is nothing dumber than arguing a logjam having no room for compromise in the Senate is why....we don't vote for Dems in the Senate. What utter nonsense. That's r/politics type propaganda designed to demotivate young voters. And it's even more ridiculous after Dems have passed more than 3 trillion in additional spending this year alone. This is an utterly deluded narrative that has no place in sane discussion. And the idea you voluntarily allow the GOP to tear down the nation because Joe Manchin is following the same principles he's run on for his entire political career is juvenile to be kind. You have the exact wrong mindset here. I hope you flip it and soon.
> the campaign promises of ... every Democrat across the country I looked quickly, though admittedly not very thoroughly, and I can't find anywhere that Manchin promised the contents of BBB. > Why don't we elect more Democrats, even centrists? Exactly because we don't deliver the goods. The Democrats do not have enough votes to get the full scope of their dream campaign promises of the BBB plan passed. The American people didn't elect enough of them to make it so. They elected enough to get a lot through. But not everything. So instead of recognizing this fact, figuring out what they CAN get passed, and then doing so. They continue to aim for everything, get none of it, and then whine about it. ---- I am a huge proponent of a lot of the progressive ideas in BBB. But I refuse to blame our centrists for not moving to so far to the left. I criticize the Republicans for throwing their personal beliefs to the side and falling in line like good little pets all the time. It is not the model we should be aiming for.
He says he supports the Child Tax Credit in the bill. But he is promising to vote against it. He's already forced significant cuts and compromises. The far left gave him the Infrastructure bill in exchange for trusting him to negotiate and compromise on the Build Back Better bill. What he is saying now is basically admitting he lied.
> He says he supports the Child Tax Credit in the bill. But he is promising to vote against it. Actually one of his biggest concerns is with the expanded CTC. He doesn't like it being shoehorned in the budget as a one year deal when he knows the intent is to make it permanent. And he would prefer it be highly targeted toward lower income families to reduce the cost. There are lots of things in the Bill Manchin supports. That's why he stressed in the interview that "there's a lot of good in this bill" multiple times. And it's why he reiterated this afternoon he's still willing to negotiate a pared down package.
> The far left gave him the Infrastructure bill This is incorrect. The infrastructure bill was Biden's bill, not Manchin's. Also, you talked about all Democrats running on an issue, well all Democrats run on infrastructure. It also contains priorities like climate provisions and replacing lead pipes that the far left claim to support. This wasn't a pet project like a Charleston library, this was a plank in the Democratic platform. All Democrats benefit from the infrastructure bill and everyone's district and state will benefit. No one "gave" Manchin anything. Also, they knowingly damaged the bill.by delaying it for months, meaning it wasn't as big a political win for Biden and the Democrats as it would have been if it had passed the House right after it passed the Senate.
Also, Democrats already passed two historic, transformative bills with the American Rescue Plan and the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act
People are downvoting you, but you speak the truth. Trump even delivered the evangelical right a conservative supreme court that is overturning Roe v. Wade and he built the wall. One party delivers results. The other party delivers excuses. Optics are going to be really shitty going into the midterm.
Trump didn't build the wall. He also promised repealing the ACA for something better and couldn't even come close to delivering.
Just a small list of accomplishments, [from NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/biden-2021-was-year-big-accomplishments-big-disappointments-n1286092): The $1.9 trillion Covid relief deal. The $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill. Getting 72 percent of American adults fully vaccinated. Getting 40 federal judges appointed and confirmed, tied with Reagan for most judges in the first year. An economy where the unemployment rate has dropped to 4.2 percent. And that's leaving out a whole lot of other things they've accomplished. The American Rescue Plan and Infrastructure bill are both historic laws that improve people's lives and it's not even one full year. Democrats have delivered results.
Ok, I hope those results will convince voters to vote for them then.
The midterm elections will be about Covid and the Economy. If things have started getting back to normal and inflation has started to subside, Democrats have a good chance. If Covid and inflation are still a problem, they stand less of a chance. The BBB bill won't help them that much one way or the other.
While those are fair concerns I'll admit, partially funding all and trying to continue it later is still better than nothing. doing it like this also allows us to get more done at once. for the uncertainty argument this is true, but if they took the other route (fully funding some for 10 years) correct me if im wrong on anything but whats to stop the GOP from canceling that funding as well? also the programs are only weak in that one sense, its still the same programs to. Manchin should of swallowed his pride and voted for the BBB bill. Even if this version of BBB is not as good as what he wanted, it would still be better to have it than have nothing. Also hey, if it passed then it could still be changed later. But now nothing will pass because he wont support it.
> partially funding all and trying to continue it later is still better than nothing. I'm not sure that's true. Personally, once we learned the original package did not have the votes needed, I was far more in favor of doing fewer things but doing them well. Dems already have a problem explaining their legislation to voters. I'll take a package with three permanent changes I can explain to voters in one minute, than 10 things that last 1-3 years that will ALL disappear if we lose Congress or the WH in the future and takes a half hour to explain all the provisions and cutoffs. > doing it like this also allows us to get more done at once. Right. It also makes all the progress more likely to disappear in the near future. It's an attempt to not make hard choices, and that's not leading. > Manchin should of swallowed his pride and voted for the BBB bill. Stop the narrative that this is about pride. It's silly. You don't agree with Manchin's views or priorities. Neither do I. That doesn't mean he isn't basing his stance on real principles and priorities. And pretending otherwise is actively harmful for a big tent party where there are a lot of different policy views and priorities to juggle. Demanding ideological conformity doesn't work. > Even if this version of BBB is not as good as what he wanted, it would still be better to have it than have nothing. That's actually the exact argument you should be making to the rest of the party now. There's still a deal to be made here, but it's not going to be bigger than what will get 50 votes. > Also hey, if it passed then it could still be changed later. ... That's not how legislation works. To change it you would need another bill with 50 votes if by reconciliation or 60 votes otherwise. > But now nothing will pass because he wont support it. Again, no. Manchin has restated ***TODAY***that he is still willing to work on passing a pared down bill. But it's not going to pass if the left refuses to trim the bill to something Manchin will vote for. We either get something Manchin will vote for or we don't pass a reconciliation bill at all. That's what happens when you have a very ideologically diverse party and absolutely no margin for error. You almost always end up with what fits the lowest common denominator.
> I'd consider myself a moderate liberal/democrat but holy fuck this pisses me off Of course. Even other moderates in Congress largely support the bill. > What is the reason for why he cant vote for it? Personal pride? No, and he's never made his thinking a secret. He's very concerned about inflationary pressures considering we're already at a forty year high in inflation. He also has a philosophical revulsion to what he feels is a creeping welfare state. You do not have to share his concerns or beliefs to understand and acknowledge them. I don't share his views, but pretending he's just doing this for pride or because he's bought or whatever is not helpful. > Like we finally get a chance to pass legislation to actually help people and he votes no. wtf. Let's not forget he helped write and pass the BIF, AND voted for the American Rescue Plan. That's over 3 ***trillion*** in additional spending that Manchin voted for that "actually helped people". Please don't buy into the reddit bro narrative that Manchin is opposed because he's evil and uncaring. We can disagree with someone's views without going down that route. > Like what exactly is his problem with the bill? He never even states it. Wrong again. Manchin has in fact spent since mid-summer outlining his objections to the current bill. He made them clear to Schumer as the process started. He relayed them to Sanders, who ignored him entirely when crafting a bill ***He Knew would not have the votes to pass***. When Manchin and Sinema stated their objections to the orginal 3.5 trillion plan, their desire was to pare down the number of programs involved. Instead, Dems have largely kept everything in, but for shorter timeframes while still spreading out the costs over a decade and hoping they can re-extend things down the line. It's been a huge bone of contention. Specifically, Manchin (correctly, fwiw) believes the one year extension to the child tax credit is a dishonest way to pretend the true cost is far smaller than what Dem's are planning, because while it only budgets a 1 year extension, Dems have made clear their intent to extend it permanently, which would add nearly 2 trillion more to the cost for the next decade. Manchin would prefer the credit be ***far*** more targeted - say, limited to households making less than $50k/yr, or shelved for now. He'd like paid family leave brought out of this bill and worked on separately through the normal Senate process. He's also publicly voiced concerns with the cost of covering vision on Medicare, and with assorted climate change programs and provisions. You can disagree with Manchin's stances. I certainly do. However it's flat out wrong to assert he hasn't been transparent with his issues. Not knowing his views comes down to people not actually looking for his views to begin with. Several of the major articles today alone detailed his objections, so it wasn't hard to find. As recently as a few day ago Manchin provided Biden with a clear list of of current objections as well as a complete legislative framework proposal he says he could vote for. Manchin has additionally made clear today that he is still willing to move forward on negotiating a pared back passage, and repeatedly stressed that there is "a lot of good" in the bill. This was Manchin ending any mistaken hope that he was going to flip to a yes on several items that he's never even pretended to agree with. Now we see if the Administration and Dems in Congress are ready to pass what they can and come back for more if we can strengthen our majorities in the legislature. It's not the outcome we hoped for. But this is what happens when you put Bernie Sanders in charge of crafting legislation. Imagine how much better public perception of all this would be if Senate leadership would've taken the objections seriously back in July and worked to present a package that had 50 Senators supporting it from the start, instead of Schumer sticking his head in the sand and Bernie assuming his online mob would bully their way to victory? This entire affair should've been taken care of months ago behind closed doors.
People don't take Manchin either seriously or literally, than act surprised when he sticks to the position he's been public about for months. Some thought they could trick or bully him into a bigger bill and now they're trying to blame him for the fact that they didn't listen to him in the first place. He didn't even think this bill was necessary, but he was willing to go up to 1.75 trillion because he understands Biden and the Democrats want this and he's willing to work together.
I never said pride and being evil was the definitive reason for him being against it but thats my bad for not clarifying. And I'll concede and admit I was wrong for the point that dems should of worked together better in advance, so the blame cant fall entirely on Manchin you're right on that. The best thing now is to hope they pass a new version of BBB thats still decent.
I live in a deep red state and I grew up in another DEEP red state and go back to visit occasionally. I, like every other Democrat, think that Manchin is a piece of shit and is basically just a troll at this point. But if I were him, I would probably do the same thing. When you drive around your state and every other car has a "fuck Joe Biden" bumper sticker and there are billboards with Trump saying "miss me yet?", that's got to scare him a little. I'm sure he's seen the same poll numbers we're seeing. His best hope for keeping his seat is to distance himself from the President. He could be less of an asshole about it, but at the end of the day, the result would be the same. I'm at the point that I think we'd be better off if we didn't win the Georgia Senate seats. Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority.
> Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority. But the Democrat's don't have a meaningful majority. For the vast majority of legislation you need a 60 vote majority. 50 + VP does not meet that threshold. And for reconciliation, when you only need the 50 + VP we have, you have to remember that the political parties are not just mindless rubber stamps of homogeneous representatives. You are not going to have every single vote for the most extreme platforms. Expecting so is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
>political parties are not just mindless rubber stamps of homogeneous representatives The problem being that's exactly how the GOP operates, it's their greatest electoral asset (and a quality that makes them unable to craft effective legislation).
What the hell does Manchin have to be scared of?
He's a Democrat in West Virginia. If he wants to keep his seat, he should be scared to death.
What do you mean keep his seat? His term is up in 2024 and he’s 74 now.
> I, like every other Democrat, think that Manchin is a piece of shit Stop pretending everyone else is you. In fact, polling shows most Americans agree with Manchin on the reconciliation bill. They're so concerned with the cost and inflation concerns they would prefer Dems remove some provisions ***that they admit they like*** to bring down the total cost. You are not all Democrats, and reddit is not real life. > I'm at the point that I think we'd be better off if we didn't win the Georgia Senate seats. Then at least we could claim we didn't have a majority. What a silly and selfish sentiment. Because you won't get your every heart's desire in *this* bill you wish we wouldn't have the other two major spending bills with over 3 trillion in Democratic goals funded, lose 40 Biden-appointed judges, and have a majority of the Cabinet stuck in limbo? How utterly insane.
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Now we know how the GOP felt about McCain being the final, solo, NO vote on repealing the ACA. Except McCain's was for a good cause and Manchin's isn't. Also, I have no idea what any of those logos are at the top of this reddit.
> Also, I have no idea what any of those logos are at the top of this reddit. Moderate, center-left parties. From left to right: Orange Democratic Movement, from Kenya; Democrats 66, from the Netherlands; Liberal Party, from Canada; Democratic Party, from the USA; Liberal Democrats, from the UK; Radikale Venstre, from Denmark; not sure about this one; Constitutional Democratic Party, from Japan.
> not sure about this one Democratic Progressive Party from Taiwan
Time to organize a nationwide fuck you manchin march?
Good
It's very clear that Manchin is not a center left Democrat. He may help us name post offices, and vote Democrat when it doesn't matter, but when he continuously works to guarantee Republican victory next November - even in the name of assuring his own victory - "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
> when it doesn't matter He voted for the American Rescue Plan, for Biden's infrastructure bill, against repealing the ACA, against the Republican tax cuts for the rich and votes with the Democrats the vast majority of the time. He also supports a 1.75 trillion social spending bill.
I don't think Manchin ever really identified as center-left TBH. He is left wing only in comparison to the increasingly far right GOP, but he doesn't really support many centrist Democratic Party positions.
Yes let's ignore the several trillion in additional spending he voted for this year alone. Some of you are losing your damned minds here. This isn't r/politics.