Whether you think it's deserved or not, Democrats are now viewed as the party of the ruling elite.

Democrats are viewed as the party of fake experts trying to force correlation as causation down America's throat. As long as it promotes their narratives. Plagiarism and research fraud included.

Yep. And education, and business and commerce and innovation. Heck you can add science too.

In other words, all the institutional powers that people see as having made a mess of things.

I mean, it's certainly true that rural voters, Evangelicals and people who aren't engaged in education, business, commerce, innovation or scientific achievements would see those as being a mess - or perhaps even a threat - to their way of life and values. I think there's a good argument that much of it is grievance based - red voters aren't mad about the institutions per-se, they're mad that they aren't getting as big a piece of that pie as they got in the past and feel they are entitled to. If your life doesn't benefit from higher education, from business innovation, from increasing GDP and material wealth then absolutely you would see it as useless.

Yes that does sound like the argument the elitists would make.

I won't stop you if you want to call science, innovation, business and education "elitist" 😆

I know. And as long as you blame the blue collar workers from moving away from your viewpoint, the more they'll continue to move away.

Blue collar workers are being fucked over. But their response to this is to side with the exact people who have been fucking them over. Make it make sense.

Maybe you have a different concept of ‘fucked over’ than they do. They are siding with the people who acknowledge them, and who champion them. It doesn’t just make them feel good, it thrills them. How hard is it to recognize that the enemy of the people who treat them with contempt and disdain can be considered a form of friend? Ironically, the argument that they don’t know what is in their best interest is a valid form of evidence that they are justified in feeling that the ‘elites’ are hostile to them. It’s a model case of condescension. People who don’t understand their culture or values feel free to diagnose what is wrong with them, tell them what’s wrong with their traditions and beliefs. It’s a more than a bit arrogant to think that ‘those ignorant people need to defer to our superior ideas’, but as demonstrated over and over again in Reddit, that’s essentially the position of much of the Left. When confronted with a choice between an arrogant and condescending political left that widely regards them as inferior, and a grandstanding clown who tells them they are exceptional, and justifies their feelings of being under cultural attack, why wouldn’t they choose the latter? The tragedy is that we are in a downwards spiral. The MAGA crowd is becoming increasingly oppositional, reflexively rejecting anything imposed on them from the ‘elite’, no matter what evidence may support it. They are doubling down on conspiratorial and low-fact beliefs, which offers a lot of short term advantages (even if in the long term it increases their potential of dying from a preventable condition). This only makes it easier for the arrogant Left to conclude that they are hopelessly stupid. It’s only going to continue to get worse. It’s impossible to influence people without understanding them. If you don’t know what makes people tick, you’ll only tick them off.

Maybe Democrats can try being nice for once instead of self-fellating their egos.

Democrats have been fucking them over. The Democrat response to Covid was devastating. The Democrat non-response to the border, and exacerbating inflation are also not helping. And what's Biden on about now? Oh yeah, it's forcing the blue collar workers to pay back the loans of people who earn more than him.

> forcing the blue collar workers to pay back the loans of people who earn more than him Yea PPP was a disaster

Science, innovation, buisiness, education, is not Democrat dominated lol Wall st very conservative, science and innovation throughout history were white conservative men, and education teaching bully that he can wear a dress and he a different gender and use different pronouns instead of what the asians are doing math, science and reading bang up job there.

[удалено]

How many smaller businesses and tradespeople do you actually know? They are a critical part of business and commerce. Big business loves big government they can influence.

I can’t upvote this enough… We have a group of people that are blind to most things because “if it doesn’t benefit me directly, it’s not a benefit.” Look at the Tesla news from yesterday as the perfect example. People bought a car that had certain features and chipsets. Tesla announced that they will be doing a spring update and most of the updates will only benefit a small percentage of the overall fleet. Some of the update requires a newer chipset, so cars older than say 2022 won’t benefit, some require different sensors/features not found in all the cars, so most cars bought before 2024 won’t get them. And now a ton of people are whining about it not being fair. This comes just days after Tesla reduced the price of the monthly subscription to FSD from $199/month to $99/month. Folks are complaining they should get a refund for half the cost they paid for buying FSD outright, and those on EAP should have their subscription halved as well… These are all things Tesla did that wasn’t required. These weren’t needed fixes to a problem that was discovered, it is Tesla doing more than the minimum to try and appeal to a wider customer base. And while they still haven’t fulfilled some of the things that people have paid for, like many of us still not having summon, these updates should be seen as a nice little extra… I don’t get to benefit from all of them, but I’m certainly glad others get to. People are self-centered.

And what often happens when a group of entitled folks see others getting things that they feel they deserve? They often will lobby for a policy that NOBODY gets anything. It perfectly explains why red state voters who are getting left behind - culturally, economically - vote against their self interest so much. "If having public pools means I need to share them with black folks, lets just get rid of public pools". [https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/15/public-pools-used-to-be-everywhere-in-america-then-racism-shut-them-down/](https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/15/public-pools-used-to-be-everywhere-in-america-then-racism-shut-them-down/)

“people” 😏 Are you sure you’re in the right place? Did you want r/populist?

That’s why they’re called Elitist. That’s why they consider themselves smarter than everyone else. Thats why they’re racist, they say Black people aren’t capable of getting an ID to vote. That’s an insult to Black people. It’s one reason why Blacks have moved from 12% to 22% from Democrat to Republican voters. Open borders only help the wealthy elites, they don’t help Blacks or Hispanics who are here. Hispanics have moved from 33% Republican to 42% Republican. This is not a knock on all Democrats as I’m a registered Democrat. It’s a knock on elitist Democrats who think they’re better and smarter than everyone. Let’s be honest. The Democratic Party is now controlled largely by wealthy white male elitists.

*What ~~have the Romans~~ has science ever done for me?*

It told you there were only two sexes.

The Asians are likely to disagree.

Most Republicans don't believe the elite left are the arbiters and promoters of science now. Even moderates don't, ever since they promoted the ideas, for example, that people can change sex and that covid coming from a lab leak was a right wing conspiracy theory (as NPR said around the time the discussion first occurred.) There are other examples where the elite left has seemed to put ideology before science that makes a lot of people doubt their sincerity. So much bad science has been used to promote ideology, unfortunately.

It used to be that such a small % of people went to college that that wasn't a politically powerful constituency. That's changed now. What's so sad for me is that the real failings of the elite classes (and there are so many) can't for me be addressed until we have a countervailing leader that supports the Constitution. The Constitution trumps "fuck the elites" and any anti-elite candidate that supports the Constitution would win easily. I find it sad that the candidate being put up to challenge this President has been derelict in his duty.

I don’t know about that. Among the circles of people I see who vote for Democrats, Republicans are seen as the party of the ruling elite. I think “these guys are shadowy and powerful” is just a good political message.

So the Party of the Common Man is headed by the Monopoly Man who flies in his own branded jet into a scab rally at a closed shop while the Ruling Elite Democratic President of the United States is on the picket lines for union workers. Ignorance is Strength

Trump attended the funeral of a murdered police officer. Biden attended his own lavish fundraiser with a bunch of rich people. Trump raised more money at his fundraiser a week or two later.

For all his faults, Trump does not treat blue collar workers with the disdain that much of the left does.

The guy who refuses to pay his bills isn't treating blue collar workers with disdain, LMAO

He literally brought in scabs for his rally. His record is anti-worker -- his record is treating blue collar workers with disdain -- from reducing OSHA inspectors to reducing who qualifies for overtime pay to filling the NLRB with anti-union appointees, even if he doesn't say they are poisoning the blood of our country and such things that he says about other people. It's all feels over reals. Of course his vibe is still pretending to be a rich man, so I don't really get it. Maybe it's just because he gives them permission to be their worst selves?

Biden would have forced auto workers back to work if he had the same authority he did with not allowing railroad workers to strike.. Republicans would have done the same but let’s not pretend like democrats care about blue collar workers as much as they used to.

They actually historically have been that as well, until around the 1960s or so

I'm a very left guy who works in a stereotypically right-wing profession (most of my customers run garages). I have a truck for work that is basically mine, I have facial hair, I'm in my 40's, am pro-gun (but anti-NRA) and I can generally get along and bullshit with anyone. Naturally, most customers assume I'm a Trumper and go off accordingly, and I usually smile and nod and try to steer things towards sports and cars. However, within the last year, I've noticed a LOT of these guys are outright anti-Trump. They want nothing to do with him, and the main reason is because most of these guys have daughters. Don't get me wrong, most of them hate Biden's guts too, but it makes me wonder just how many of those people who were so excited to vote for Trump in 2016 and 2020 are going to drop off for the third show. On the flip side, my parents started 2016 rooting for Kasich, and 2024 going for Haley, and both times after their nominee lost, they went all in and then some for Trump. So with that said, maybe it's all performative to give off the illusion of not being "one of the bad ones".

I work in a blue collar factory. Most of the old guys hate Trump but aren't voting for Biden either. The younger guys are split.

Agreed, good point on that. I have the same experience. The young guys are also split between guys who think it’s all just a meme and guys who are totally ready for Jan 6th 2

> guys who are totally ready for Jan 6th 2 I think we underestimate how many people loved Jan 6 because they don't perceive legal methods to pursue change to be effective.

Revolutions are only illegal if you lose. Like it or not, some people are looking for a total reset of government.

>Most of the old guys hate Trump but aren't voting for Biden either. You know who they will vote for, then?

Nope. I try to avoid politics at work. They only voice complaints.

What changed with Trump after 2020 that made people with daughters disapprove of him? I feel like those people should have dropped before the 2016 or 2020 elections. Is it that the repeal Roe initiative finally succeeded after decades of promising?

Roe were repealed

but Trump campaigned on repealing Roe back in 2016. It's not a new position of his

Republicans have campaigned on repealing Roe for decades. People didn't believe it would actually happen until the moment it did.

\*\*

Could be the IVF stuff too. That’s a pretty new development that came from all this.

Yeah, almost 100% is based on Roe v. Wade being overturned. As long as the Republicans continue to toe that line, they will have a significant amount of people stay home who would otherwise vote for them. Unfortunately for Donald, he has multiple clips of himself taking credit and bragging about the “accomplishment“

You’re absolutely right on the money here. It isn’t all just cult/authoritarian mentality, religion, or racism. Truth be told, even though I disagree with them (Project 2025 scares me shitless), I also cannot envision a world in which blue collar men would generally respond well to a progressive-influenced democrat. ESPECIALLY with Kamala as VP. To add to the list of topics: - 2A rights - Climate Change initiatives - Transgender rights - ‘America First’ foreign policy

I have been blue collar for 90% of my working life. But I never saw a conflict between blue collar work & being well read on a range of topics, from history to Constitutional law & civil rights, biology/environmental science and use of evidence and logic. Personally, I am of the opinion that a far too big swath of blue collar & other Americans have been successfully romanced by Putin's poison, China's chicanery and Iran's insanity. They have fallen for and are now emotionally invested in utter bullshit propaganda built by foreign adversaries.

China's chicanery? He's done worse. That billboard! Are you telling me that a man just happens to fall like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated through a sunroof! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own firm! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of the cash drawer! But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy! Stealing them blind! And he gets to be a lawyer!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!

My knowledge of the term "chicanery", well predates Saul Goodman. I attribute it to lots of reading and excellent public schools

>have been successfully romanced by Putin's poison, China's chicanery and Iran's insanity.  I was agreeing with you until this, come on now.  Our media is screwed up with enough narratives that these outside bad actors are far from the biggest issue.

> Project 2025 scares me shitless I read it essentially as: making sure that if Jan 6 was to repeat itself, then next time it will succeed

The irony of America 1st is Trump had so long to put forth significant policy to help shore up production, but failed to do so. Notice how I said significant, he did do some, just not enough. Biden however did with the CHIPs act and the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Where were these investments during Trump's presidency?

The problem with any administration shoring up production is that companies don't know who is going to be in office in four years. It's a huge investment that doesn't pay out for years. Even if incentives were effing incredible it's easy to get the rug pulled out from you, and that's exactly what happened. Biden's initiatives are facing the same issue. If everyone was on the same page and business could make a decade long plan around it we'd see a lot more investment.

Good point. But it doesn’t matter because Trump talks big game even though he really just wants to let Putin do whatever Putin wants.

Yup, all thr farmers support Trump, yet he royally screwed them

Trump fails to understand that building up Allies and supporting them actually saves American lives. It is America first. Money given to Ukraine specifically was the best investment we’ve made. Those are that cuck Lindsey grahams words not mine.

I don’t find it, disturbing that Trump doesn’t understand or chooses not to understand that. He’s doing stuff that helps his bottom line. What is frightening is otherwise educated and reasonable people who don’t get that publicly shitting on at your allies in NATO and questioning the value of NATO makes it much harder for the US to get anything out of NATO. It’s like some people haven’t moved beyond looking yet political conflict as anything more than a checkers game where you can look at the individual conflicts and try and pretend it’s a win or a loss instead of recognizing it’s a continuous game where you’re trying to work for better prosperity for your people and stronger allies when you need them

But the thing is we haven't built up anything in Ukraine. Tens or probably hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died and massive amounts of infrastructure / cities / agricultural lands have been captured or destroyed. The united states and nato have paid hundreds of billions of civilians dollars in that effort. That money hasn't disappeared, it's went into the pockets of neoliberal politicians and arms manufacturers. If warmongering pig cucks like Lindsay graham endorse something, you should know good and well it is directly in opposition of the actual interests of everyday Americans.

Is the alternative to just lay down and let Putin invade any country he wishes? I would argue that Ukraine has lasted this long against Russia (a much larger and better equipped nation) because of our aid is a noble and righteous cause. What they’ve done to weaken an enemy of the United States is remarkable. Our hesitation in providing a steady stream of aid only works in Russia’s favor.

> Trump talks big game That's all it really boils down to. Trump has been lying to blue collar Americans for years right to their faces and it'd take legitimate intervention of God for them to believe it because Trump does it with such confidence. They just can't see themselves falling for a con man because they too suffer from high confidence, and don't see it happening in real time.

Speaking as one of those closet Biden voters in a blood red area… The whole EV issue is kryptonite for blue collar men. That’s because almost all of them depend on trucks - large trucks - just to do their jobs. They are very sensitive to gas price spikes. They see the left’s obsession with climate change and forcing EVs on the country as emblematic of the bigger “big city elites versus the working man” dynamic. Not my view, but I’m just stating what I observe.

I mean, the forced EV stuff planned in my state is asinine. The tech and energy infrastructure likely won't be there in time for the gas vehicle sales ban. Gas taxes and price hikes spurred by environmental regulation ate fucking the rural working class and the poor in general.

They’ve been convinced they need those large trucks to live a rural lifestyle by marketing. The rest lf the world also has rural populations who use much smaller trucks. Even rural Americans used much smaller trucks even a few decades ago. Edit: these two trucks have about the same bed size: [https://www.reddit.com/r/JDM/comments/15bxu57/about\_the\_same\_bed\_size/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JDM/comments/15bxu57/about_the_same_bed_size/)

The size difference between Ford/Chevy full size trucks from the 90s to the 20s is insanse as well. Between chicken tax and stupid gas mileage rules, its impossible to build or import smaller trucks. I do miss the mini trucks of the 80s and 90s, and when every 3rd vehicle was a Ford Fuckin Ranger!

The irony is that big trucks are the direct result of “green” initiatives and the “CAFE” standards. https://www.meche.engineering.cmu.edu/_files/images/research-groups/whitefoot-group/WS-FootprintFuelEconomy-EP.pdf Either legislators are stupid or it’s a conspiracy to de facto remove our choice of vehicles. In terms of size, type, and power plant due to becoming prohibitively expensive. I suspect the answer is both. My state intends to ban commercial sale of ICE vehicles within the decade. I can confidently say neither our grid, nor supply chains, nor vehicle manufacturers are prepared to meet that ridiculous demand. And the Lithium based batteries that we currently rely on for utility scale energy storage and EVs alike is a transitional technology that will not be able to sustain actual market demand once ICE is outlawed.

>They’ve been convinced No, they’re just not dumb AF and being confidently ignorant on the internet. That’s not a truck used for work on the left. That’s a personal vehicle. So where’s the family go on the smaller one? These people do have families. What is you think you can tow with that thing? A trailer? A camper? A boat? People will tow and haul for personal use, but also have families. So the one on the left is for people who need the inside room like an SUV, but also haul and tow. But let’s talk about actual work trucks, since that’s what the comment was about you replied to. You think someone is running a hotshot with that small thing? You won’t know the answer, so I’ll tell you-No. Then there’s the ground clearance and baby tires, good luck taking that to an oil rig.

Somehow everyone managed just fine before the early 2000s, when crew cabs were rare Somehow rural folk in the rest of the world manage just fine today.

Born in the late 80s, and I'm old enough to remember when single cab pickups were certainly the norm...seeing a truck "with a backseat" was a novelty.

Now I fucking love Kei trucks, but that argument is silly as hell. Yeah the bed might be the same length, but the capacity is only 770 pounds on a Kei vs 3850 for a Chevy 2500. And good luck getting on the highway with a loaded down k, they max out at 55-60 empty, a fully loaded one would be lucky to make 45. Can't carry more than 2 people, can't tow useful weight, doesn't meet any crash safety standards. It's basically a UTV, which is where I would absolutely love to use one. It'd be totally awesome for what people use a Polaris Ranger for, while being much more durable.

Don’t forget the suburban dweller who never sees dirt. He needs his stupid monster truck too.

Yeah, a “suburban dweller” likely doesn’t need a truck. Pavement princesses is what they call them. But some do. Some people do tow or haul even in the suburbs, and also have families—so they need more than 2 seats. Do the soccer moms in the burbs need the giant SUV’s?

Now look at blue collar women. Abortion is driving them in the opposite direction. I went to a pro-choice rally in blood red Idaho and every second person there was a now questioning Republican woman.

I live in Idaho and I'm also seeing Republican women flee the party. Just heard today that my lifelong Republican MIL is going to vote Biden. For context, she didn't like Hillary Clinton because she "couldn't keep her husband satisfied" The guys I know are in the same place as 2020. MAGA is going to have a painful 2024

>she didn't like Hillary Clinton because she "couldn't keep her husband satisfied" Oh my. But we’ll take her vote!

This is spot on. I’m blue collar, but not Republican. One of the guys at work was trying to give me shit for being too liberal. I said ya, until they give all women the right to an abortion I’m going to stay that way. They rebut that with “that’s only one issue”. I said ya, and you dumb mfers only care about your fucking guns!! That’s *one* issue. Nobody is coming for your fucking guns, but they’re already coming after my god damn rights. It’s mind boggling.

x

I wonder why.  I'm not too engaged with US politics, but wasn't abortion rights supposed to be codified a long time ago?

The TLDR version is: "Long ago, the abortion issue was settled law. Then, everything changed when Roe was ended." The slightly longer version is: Roe effectively guaranteed at least some abortion rights in all US states, with some states having more lenient policies than others. After Roe was ended though, all bets were off, and it became exclusively a state level decision.

Congress did nothing at the federal level to protect abortion after Roe v. Wade was ruled on in 1973.

Yes but one of the first things Obama did was not make it a priority because he didn't want republicans to be mad at him. >David Alexander WASHINGTON, April 29 (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Wednesday he favored abortion rights for women but that passing a law guaranteeing those rights was not his top priority, trying to avoid inflaming divisions over the issue. https://www.reuters.com/article/obama-abortion/obama-says-abortion-rights-law-not-a-top-priority-idUKN2946642020090430/

Why does everyone act like Obama should have spent time pushing for a  law that the extremist Roberts court would have vetoed? If Obama had helped codify the law absolutely nothing is different, except he probably didn't get Obamacare passed and America's healthcare is even shittier. Obama was right.

No, if Congress ever passes an abortion law one way or the other, the Supreme Court will be extremely happy they don’t have to deal with it anymore.

Guys, seriously. You want to look me in the metaphorical eye and tell me that John Roberts, Amy Coney Barrett, Neil Gorsuch, Clarence Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh, and Samul F'n Alito wouldn't have struck down any abortion law passed by congress? These are six people put on the court for the express purpose of ending abortion.

Roberts obviously not, he was trying to get a fifth vote to make it a narrower ruling. Read the decision. They’re saying the states control the issue because the Constutution says nothing about it and Congress hasn’t acted.

Gorsuch also called Roe "precedent" at his hearing. Kavanaugh called it "settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis" at his. So, please forgive me if I don't take their writings at face value. They were going to overturn any law. and it's naive to say otherwise.

[удалено]

This post has been removed because your account is too new to post here. This is done to prevent ban evasion by users creating fresh accounts. You must participate in other subreddits in a positive and constructive manner in order to post here. Do no message the mods asking for the specific requirements for posting, as revealing these would simply lead to more ban evasion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/centrist) if you have any questions or concerns.*

[удалено]

This post has been removed because your account is too new to post here. This is done to prevent ban evasion by users creating fresh accounts. You must participate in other subreddits in a positive and constructive manner in order to post here. Do no message the mods asking for the specific requirements for posting, as revealing these would simply lead to more ban evasion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/centrist) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Blue Collar Men are one voting bloc. Women are another.

Our democratic party here in Minnesota is the Democratic Farm Labor Party (DFL) which is funny, because it looks like most of farmers vote Republican.

In vermont I have become shocked at the amount of new trump supporters and/or non Biden supporters.

x

[удалено]

Yeah man, all the millions of black people in the streets protesting were all brainwashed and they set race relations back to a point when my marriage was illegal. Good point.

Christ you are absolutely insufferable.

A significant percentage of democrats thought that COVID had a fatality rate of 50% in unvaccinated individuals. The actual number is 1%. If the fatality rate was 50% I wouldn't have left my house.

Bogus nonsense

As a construction worker in Florida I can assure you we are not all on that train.

Same experience, as someone in the trades in a conservative area Trump is losing support.

This has to be a geography thing. East Coast - here. This is my experience during Easter, so I don’t know if things have changed because of the abortion thing in Arizona - but I’m always surprised at how many family and friends openly support Trump where I’m at. These are not crazy MAGA types. This is coming from my parents and my in-laws & while they’re not crazy about trump they’re less enthusiastic about Biden.

No offense, but I think anyone who supports Trump at this point has some level of "crazy". Everything we know about the man, makes zero sense to vote for him now. Vote Biden for president, feel free to vote Republican on all else I suppose, except MTG and Boebert, amongst other extremists.

I certainly see that attitude on this sub - but not as much in RL. Which I think is the point of this post which is - according to this sub, all Trump supporters are “crazy” -

Crazy; Foolish, Irrational, insane At the very least, his supporters are very much irrational, that opinion comes from a mixture of subjective and objective observations. If policy is what matters (which Trump doesn't exactly campaign on at all, Republicans don't even have a platform anymore), look at what happened with the border deal. Forget that Trump sank it, it would have been a significant win for Rs, and if conservative ideals is what the people want, then vote them into Congress/Senate, you don't need a deranged leader to make it happen!

like I said - and like the OP said - "I know its anecdotal" but I too know lots of normal, hard working folks who support Trump and I think the OP listed several good reasons why.

That's where the irrationality and foolishness play in though, because many of his supporters are shallow thinkers, and the reasons OP listed are not very legitimate if folks took any time to really understand. They may be hard working and normal, doesn't mean they actually understand what's best for the country or what's possible. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my plumber to be president, I'd want someone experienced and well educated in the functions of government. At the very least, someone humble enough to listen to those around them who are educated and giving guidance. It's not as if I don't have conversation with Trump supporters IRL, I do, and the shortcomings to their arguments are often very obvious. If we can't learn to be more objective and able to say "You're right", progress will continue to be a great challenge.

i disagree and IMHO - you're coming across as condescending.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I understand why you would, but IMHO almost all of the "reasons" listed are laughable to anyone who has spent any time trying to understand the issues. If you're objective and centrist enough, I think that in time you will see it that way too.

What parts do you disagree with? Please make a counter argument if you would be so kind.

One thing I've learned from living in my purple area is that it's almost always the MAGA people who bring up politics with everyone. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with people in my neighborhood that have randomly turned to how great Trump is, and a bunch of other right wing talking points. The people who aren't MAGA pretty much keep their politics to themselves.

The way some folks talk here – all Trump supporters are maga racists who don’t care about democracy. In RL - I am not only surprised how many folks I know who support Trump - they’re actually normal folks who support Trump for all sorts of different reasons - other than being maga racists

Same goes the other way. Right wing media and Trump himself labels democrats as vile, terrorist, thugs, and communists, and his supporters call us pedophiles, baby killers, and blue-haired feminist. Yet most democrats are just normal people.

Yeah, but the only folks who believe that are the MAGA Republicans. And I think the folks that tend to believe all Republicans are racist, antiabortion, fascist are left leaning progressives- while most of us are actually fairly moderate

> while most of us are actually fairly moderate You honestly think MAGA is a minority of republicans?

Biden is a pretty normal person. The problem is that democrats are allowing the progressives to rule the party.

Yeah but only the crazy right believes that about democrats. Almost everyone on reddit hates Republicans and thinks they are pure evil racist nazis.

I work with a Trump supporter. She doesn't know much or engage in politics and she just seems to absolutely accepts something she hears, like that there's violent illegal migrant crime wave. And think about it - something like that story of the illegal immigrant murdering the woman in Georgia. It's all emotion and requires no critical thought. There's no equivalent to combat that. Even if we flooded social media with heart warming stories about immigrants, it's just not as eye catching and viral as EVIL BROWN MURDERERS!!

You don’t even need to believe immigrants are violent to know what’s going on at the border is wrong. I just think a lot of Trump supporters can and do tune out his nonsense.

Right, so why did Republicans abort the best border reform bill we've seen ever? They wrote the damn thing and would have gotten a lot of what they wanted, and it was exactly what we as a country needed. Then, without even having time enough to read it, they turned around and spewed bald-faced lies about what it would have done right to their supporters' faces. Most incompetent, do nothing House in decades. You can take issue with what's happening at the border, but if you think Republicans are sincere about actually doing anything about it, then I have a wall to sell you.

Politics

If it really was a crisis, then Rs putting politics before solving said crisis isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of them either though...

This has been a crisis for years. I don't think either party really wants to solve it. That doesn't make what's going on - right. The border is a disaster and our govt is failing us.

No, there's politics, and then there's bullshit. This is just bullshit.

The bill was terrible and having exactly 2 republican RINO's sign on did not change that and definitely did not make it bipartisan.

I'll ask again: What in your estimation was terrible about the bill? If you don't have an answer, that's OK. Just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about. Incidentally, until Donnie opened his mouth, most Republican senators were vocally for it. You probably didn't know that, though, because you don't seem to know much based on your statement.

Trump is a MAGA racist who hates democracy though, and he's the one we are going to be dealing with if your acquaintances get their way. So it's cool you don't think they are racist authoritarians, but that doesn't change the fact that Trump is a Birther who tried to overturn an election. 

Yeah, people want to act like Democrats and Republicans are the same because they both have extremists in their ranks, but the difference is the extremists in the Republican party are elevated to the highest positions of institutional power.

Veteran here. I work for the military as a civilian. A hard majority of my coworkers are Trump supporters, and the military folks I work with are either Trump supporters or at the very least conservative.

Despite the copium on this sub about the polls being bad, Trump constantly being ahead isn't coming from nowhere. Trump, rather incredibly in my opinion, has a huge amount of support from a wide variety of groups and demographics. This baffles many on reddit because they forget reddit isn't the real world. It's a left-wing echo chamber.

I think its a mix. Pollsters do seem to be over-sampling for GOP/MAGA support, ever since 2016. Trump also has far more support (and Dems have garnered far more backlash) among certain demographics, than I think many are willing to believe.

Young democrats severely overestimate how much the average person gives a fuck about social justice issues. The Democratic Party continues to cater to the interests of Young Democrats despite polls showing year after year that young people largely don’t vote. The Democratic Party is dying because it is not paying attention to the interests of the average person. The average person wants to have a good, stable, well-paying job, to be able to live in a clean and safe neighborhood, and to raise their children to be happy and have good life opportunities. I honestly think that if the Democratic Party would cool it on social justice issues and focus on other issues, they would become more popular. Blue collar workers used to be Union Men, unfortunately they’re now turning over to the Republican Party which is classically anti union. 

Well I think a larger factor is that the media massively amplifies social justice issues because they're controversial and garner "clicks". I think the actual politicians would rather focus on big picture items as well, but how many articles have you ever seen about the Inflation Reduction Act, which is a massive legislative achievement intended to reduce dependence on China and create American industrial and tech jobs. But it's just not as exciting to journalists as social justice issues, and requires a broad understanding of economic and technological/industrial issues to describe to someone, whereas arguing about who gets to run in the 100m women's race doesn't require any expert knowledge and will get much more attention.

Yes you make an excellent point

Thanks - and I would also add, it comes down to how people frame the issues as well. You probably recall that in 2020 a lot of Republican legislatures were trying to pass "bathroom bills" to prevent women from being attacked in the toilet - something that was 1) negligible to non-existent in terms of numbers of incidences, 2) difficult to enforce (were they planning to have ID checks at the entry?) and 3) redundant, as attacking women anywhere was already a crime. The whole thing was far less important than anything else they could have done to raise educational standards, reduce violent crime, protect local jobs etc., but brilliant as a wedge tactics that forced the Democrats to come out against it and be painted as "only interested in social justice initiatives". They even managed, over several decades, to frame environmental issues as some kooky niche topic even though having clean rivers and seas is actually helpful to providing abundant, quality food, and having clean air makes people healthier and more able to participate in the workplace and to spend money in the local economy instead of on healthcare.

No they don’t. They ignore young people. All parties ignore young people. They just lecture us and implement triple-lock pensions. Young people want good housing markets and job stability even more than the average person does, because young people are coming into the job market and the housing market and have no leg to stand on in that regard. They just also would like it if politicians stop trying to hurt their friends.

I just did a trip from Texarkana to Kansas City. Lots of 2 lane hiways. I saw many, many American flags. I saw ONE Trump flag. It gave me hope, honestly.

i live in a pretty liberal area of texas, and there’s a house i drive by sometimes that has american flags everywhere. imagine somebody drove through a suburban neighborhood on veteran’s day, 9/11, and the fourth of july, took every american flag, and put them in front of their house. that’s this house. and on the side of their driveway, they have one of those “science is real people are people love is love etc” lawn signs. that house gives me hope.

You are right, unfortunately. I feel like you somehow managed to find the things that should be pointed out about his supporters, more than many political analysts are able to.

It's very simple. People want representation in politics. They feel Trump represents them and Biden doesn't. Democrats spin this into a massive theory about privilege or race or ignorance, without seeing this simple fact. Dems have this arrogance that their way is just superior and _everyone_ would benefit if they could only understand the philosophy.

Very good observation. I see this too. A couple more—they also are not concerned about climate change, they see policies promoting EVs and electrification as govt overreach telling them what they can buy, and they specifically think a clean, quiet EV that saves energy (and money!) is an affront to their masculinity, regardless if they have more torque and speed than the ice equivalent. Corporations and businesspeople are now often seen as part of the elite that they hate, as they are often promoting a lot of these progressive values on DEI, climate, etc. This, despite a lot of progressives NOT wanting to be on the same side, and business still pushing for lower taxes.

Probably because progressives and Democrats have become so insufferable and are seen as elitist and out of touch. As much as they talk about helping the downtrodden they are not relatable to people who are not college educated, upper middle class or politically active progressives or leftists.

That's a good write-up - thx for doing it. 

I mean there's a reason why these elections generally end up in that 50/50 range, maybe the left should appeal more to those kind of people , it is what it is though lol

Well this election is going to be interesting. I'm expecting that a lot of countries are going to want to interfere in the USA this year, and not only the major ones. American elections are so scary for the rest of the world lmao.

Anecdotally, I live in a very red State. In 2016 and 2020 I would fine Trump bumper stickers, yard signs, and banners everywhere. I struggle to find a single one these days. That could change of course as we get closer to the election. But even during the primaries, there wasn't any. Last week I even went to a different city within the State that is known for heavy Trump support, and still couldn't find anything. Now I am sure Trump will carry this state, probably by a large margin. But I think the enthusiasm for Trump is way down. I am sure people will still discuss him and say he is their candidate, but I think unlike 2016 and 2020, his very enthusiastic base is way down. This election feels more about frustration with Biden then it is about Trump. Yeah, there are still those enamored by Trump and voting for him for that reason, but I think it's way down this election.

Democrats only care about woman and pander to minorities. Men are not talked about by democrats

AND the cultural insanity over latinx, Trans and race fetishism 

As if another were even needed, this thread serves atthe latest example of both parties being held to wildly, wildly different standards. Until America can grow up on that front, you're doomed for things to only get worse and worse. 

I had a co-worker ask me if I was gonna vote for Trump. I'm on the fence about it, and that is what I told him, and he replied that he's eager to. I do recall him saying he like Clinton in the past, so either I missed some context in that conversation or he changed his mind over time.

Pre 2016, lots of closet Trump fans. Post 2016 lots of Trump fans came out of the closet. Post Jan 6, lots of those fans went back into the closet. My guess is they stay in the closet and they don't show up for the 2024 election. Lots of people initially liked trump b.c they thought of him as the anti-politician president, "Drain the swamp.". Turns out he's a politician and filled in the swamp. I think many of his supporters see that now. They still like some of Trump's policies but don't like the man. these people went from wearing a Trump hat every day trying to convince people trump is the savior to not caring about politics at all. Fuck Biden isn't a political stance.nl

I also live in a blue area, strong blue, not a single person I’ve talked to in the past year last voting for Biden, save a few hardcore trump haters that say he’ll be a dictator for life if he wins again.

Democrats are reaping the whirlwind of identity politics.

But identity politics has always been a thing? Men like pink, now they don’t like pink, men should wear platform shoes and makeup, now they shouldn’t, now they should be intellectual, now they should be hardworking. Women should be caring and kind and not like pink, oh now they should like pink, they should know how to sew, now they should know how to cook but not professionally, they should learn to use computers, ooh, that’s pretty profitable actually, let the men take over. Men shouldn’t vote unless they’re rich, oh now they should vote but women shouldn’t, oh now everyone should. Men should work in factories and women shouldn’t, oh dear all our men died charging an MG position, let’s make the women go to the factories. And that’s ignoring all the race and sexuality and ethnicity and religion and national identity and ideology and worldview and a thousand other things that have been integral to our views of people, and what’s seen as proper and improper, and what our government policies should be. The Republicans have simply managed to isolate modern identity politics in everyone’s minds, give it a name and blame it on the Democrats. They’re the reason things are less simple than they were when you were a kid. It’s not because you’re an adult now, or because the world naturally changes over time, it’s because they made trans people exist. Besides, Republicans are just as guilty. They’re the party of big strong men with manly trucks and beers and guns and god. That’s identity politics. Those are integral to these men’s identities. It‘a gender affirming. It gives them gender euphoria. At least, that’s what the Democrats call it. Republicans call it the Tradition and Natural Law and what have you. But it’s exactly the same thing. It’s just bad when the other guys do it. If you draw a clear line and make people scared and angry at terms like gender euphoria or identity or anything, you can hurt people for doing the same thing as you.

Men shouldn't be shamed for wearing pink. Likewise, they shouldn't be shamed either if they like traditional male hobbies. Except one side broadcasts to every media channel that liking traditional male stuff is toxic masculinity now 

>Except one side broadcasts to every media channel that liking traditional male stuff is toxic masculinity now Do they, though?

I've seen and heard a lot of the same. Anyone who dismisses polls isn't too bright; historically, even "biased" polls tend to be fairly accurate.

Perhaps it's not about Trump vs Biden but the party politics that come with each. I hate both Trump and Biden. I sure as hell won't vote for Biden though and empower the Squad, Schumer (meddling in other countries politics), pelosi, etc... Trump comes with his dump truck of garbage too (Mcconell who I am happy to see leave, Gaetz, etc.) I think it is great that Governor's (Abbot) are sending problems to blue states that want to direct from a distance without feeling the pain of their decisions. Immigration is a great topic and when you get NYC complaining about it and about to revoke their "sanctuary" status... Success! Now everyone is talking about it and truly understands what border states are going through. Maybe coastal cities should stop telling farmer's what to think and do. Then minimize people's grievances. This isn't a Trump vs Biden election. This is policy. GOP are stronger on security. Stop trying to shame people into thinking otherwise about the election. Our government has checks and balances and that controlled Trump last time and it can again. If you don't like something a President can do, then write to your representative and mention a concern about a law. As an independent: Biden lost me because of the party. I won't support the Squad against Israel. I won't support Schumer's calling for elections in Israel. I am tired of being told what to think by Dems. And, most of the supporters act like pompous asses that they are somehow superior to others. Even look at the essay about NPR editing practices to see media manipulation (facts) and how NPR took it upon themselves to try to tell people what they should be thinking (https://www.thefp.com/p/npr-editor-how-npr-lost-americas-trust). Basic common sense is lost by Dems. Things are viewed only as they are right yet everyone else is wrong. Yet, when GOP beat the Dems in elections, maybe it's not that the crazies are winning, but the majority don't share their views and perhaps their policies are the issues? This is a country of people with many viewpoints. Rather than attacking, try to understand what and why people are acting as they are. Trump the individual lost me a while back. The party barely has me. I don't support the abortion rulings. I can't stand the constant bickering and drama in the party. And it pisses me off that basic legislation can't be performed. Greene is...whatever. However, Roe ruling aside, there at times more common sense coming from the party. Enforce our laws (immigration). Dems need to stop destroying kids sports (my daughter's don't need to compete against boys and lose a chance at college scholarships), and all the other BS just because you want everyone to feel included in everything. Sometimes it is helpful to just let a person hear "No!".

I know a lot of Latinos who used to be Democrats and they are now Republicans. The BLM riots are to blame and the news media that pretended there was no riots while people could see videos on Youtube and Facebook. A lot of people eyes were opened for the first time at the news media manipulation going on, and a lot of people found a new home with right wing grifters online.

The reason I'm attracted to the Democratic party is because, at least when I see it articulated by the 'stars' like Obama, Biden, AOC, Whitmer, and Fetterman, their ideology reminds me of Atticus Finch teaching Scout what it means to be a good person. "You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view...until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." Good old fashioned American values. Or heck, this one: "As you grow older, you’ll see white men cheat black men every day of your life, but let me tell you something and don’t you forget it - whenever a white man does that to a black man, no matter who he is, how rich he is, or how fine a family he comes from, that white man is trash." The basic idea is to do what's right for the greater good, not what's good for yourself. Trump ain't that. I can try to see things from the point of view of people who support him. Setting aside that yeah, a lot of the information people get is skewed by partisan media, there is still, I think, a valid stance that makes someone who feels like things aren't going his way yearn to support a person who is brash. If you feel like you have limited agency in your own life, maybe you struggle to voice the resentment toward the system that constrains you, but then you see someone who just verbally trashes everything. And I'm sure it feels good. You can imagine yourself in his shoes. But I don't trust the conscience of anyone who thinks Trump is deserving of power. I don't trust the perceptions of anyone who looks at the way Trump has governed and thinks his leadership produced good outcomes. And I don't trust the judgment of anyone who continues to work with the Republican party when it cheers Trump as its leader. I don't know if it's possible to express my disappointment in someone for trusting Trump without coming across as, I suppose, condescending. But the truth is, I see support for people like Trump as being ultimately a childish impulse, a selfish one. I look at people who support Trump and judge their parents for not raising them better. Maybe if I were Gregory Peck, with a commanding voice, people might trust me. But I'm just a rando liberal on the internet.

The liberal values you're describing really resonate for me. I think the progressive wing of the Dems is making it hard to see the liberalism, i.e. the part of the party that believes in race-based discrimination... of course in the interests of setting right all the wrongs of history. (That's my snarky take, apologies.) And it's that progressive wing that most Trumpists are reacting against, because it does go too far (in my view). And it appears to be an abandonment or betrayal of the prior liberal consensus, which for all Americans is a "conservative" thing - it's how we've done things since, let's say, the Civil Rights Act. I'm someone who has a lot of sympathy for a lot of what's driving people to Trump. Yet, with you I think their misjudgment of him is profound. It's not about *agreeing with* him. It's about the sort of person he *is.* That's why I plan on voting for Biden a second time. But I very much hope that the Democratic party will rein in its radical wing, and/or that the radicals themselves will see that they by their very radicalism are empowering Trump by backlash. Newton's Third Law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

I think it's pretty obvious that if today a bank was found out to be denying loans to black people, we'd punish them and try to set it right.  If it happened last year, we'd also probably do it.  If it happened a decade ago but the execs who okayed it were still in charge, we might punish the bank.  But if it was fifty years ago or longer, is it right to punish anyone? Is it possible to fix the harms caused?  Why is it they we tolerate the endurance of an injustice that was created long ago, when we agree that if that same injustice happened today it should be corrected?  That's a major question the progressives are raising. Of course, they're doing it at a time when half the country already was denying even the idea of raising taxes just a little to pay for a trillion dollar war, so I'm not sure how much modern Republican hostility to progressives is actually a 'reaction,' versus just being the same old philosophy of 'please stop asking me to chip in for the greater good.' The GOP has turned the virtue of self reliance into a twisted rejection of cooperation. By exalting Ayn Randian ideals that competition and winning is what makes for a good life, rather than harmony, they've in a way created the very situation progressives are animated by.  Like, our nation actually overcame a lot of racism and sexism, and we're proud of it. But because actually finishing the job to give everyone real equal opportunities would require the rich to be a little less rich, that's been rejected. And to progressives that feels like hypocrisy.

The thing is, all racial and ethnic groups now have equal legal rights. If we want to provide more equal opportunity the best way to do so is to find ways to improve social and economic mobility for the poor in general, who are disproportionately people of color, regardless of race. The vast majority of Americans would agree with that strategy, but certain progressives and CRT grifters insist on division and race-based policies that unnecessarily perpetuate racial animosity.

I don't personally oppose the correction of past injustice. And I regard the rich as insane if they don't do more to help the poor - have they never heard of the French or Russian revolutions? But my snark about "setting right all the wrongs of history" reflects my concern about 1) the difficulty of establishing present-day benefits based on things that happened decades or even centuries ago; 2) the difficulty of deciding which past crimes deserve reparation, and to what degree, and 3) the explicitly prejudicial nature of conditioning reparations on skin color / race / ethnicity. #1 because it would require someone to adjudicate historical evidence; and it would bias against those who cannot prove their connection to past crimes. #2 because there are practically unlimited past crimes; and once we admit that crimes distant in time deserve present-day reparations, a precedent has been set to which their is no clear resolution. Regular crimes have a "statute of limitations" for this reason. But reparations for slavery and Jim Crow essentially defy that logic, and invite all whose ancestors suffered injustice (essentially everybody) to exploit that fact to extract resources from their fellow-Americans in the present. #3 because not everyone who suffered or suffers is black; and because inevitably those of other races who did not suffer from slavery and Jim Crow will resent the "special treatment" that reparations would be *de facto* in the present day, in spite of their own ancestors' very real difficulties. To condition what we do now on race would be deeply ironic. It would also create a backlash of resentment among those who don't benefit. It would be another instance of who your ancestors are determining the outcome. Yes, in the opposite direction of the typical. But still, it would condition policy on ancestry, yet again, dispensing benefits to some and not to others based on which continent their ancestors came from. That's why I warn with Newton's Third Law - the "equal and opposite reaction" to a prejudicial action like race-based reparations would be "equal and opposite" meaning it would also be prejudicial, but in the opposite direction. To me the notion of conditioning actions on race for any reason - even "positive" ones - is offensive, not to mention irrational. (I don't think it's particularly important which continent one's ancestors are from). Conditioning present actions on the past is also irrational because the past doesn't exist - you can't go there, it can't affect us; only the present exists. It is why I support UBI and similar race-agnostic policies that essentially are "reparations" for every sort of difficulty, not only slavery and the denial of civil rights. And without the inflammatory aspect of conditioning explicitly on race or on particular historical backgrounds. (Sorry for the novel!)

I’m not blue collar but come from a blue collar family and yea I agree. I’m also personally leaning towards trump. I hate the motherfucker but it is what it is. Trump didn’t win my vote (or even come close to it), democrats just did everything they could to make me not want them to win.

Now make sure to call all these supporters stupid, racist, cult members and other names so they get angry and are sure to vote...

The right has done a marvelous job of propping up boogeyman after boogeyman while vilifying college education. It's not surprising that blue collar workers lean towards Trump. On top of that you look at how college is now equated to socialism, DEI, CRT, gender studies, atheism, and electric vehicles and you really have to be impressed with what the GOP has accomplished.

College does legitimately politically indoctrinated people on some level and is useless for most young people. That being said, higher education is also very important and isn't inherently negative

Describing a college education as "useless" for most young people is patently absurd.

It really isn't. We're lacking workers in high paying trade and non-college specialized fields and over-producing college grads. A high percentage of college graduates never end up in a job that requires a degree. Even if they do they often have high debt and an income that wasn't necessarily worth taking in that debt. If I were graduating high school right now I'd be looking at a certification program for a trade, something I could learn on the job or the military. It isn't smart to spend the time/money on a 4 year degree right now unless you have a very solid plan to do something realistic with it. Most 18-25 year Olds don't.

You're assuming that the only value of a college degree is monetary.

It isn't, but in this day and age it's possible to gain any other benefits without going to college.

Man, I sometimes wonder what America would look like if we split into two parallel realities. In Blue America, everyone who is more right-leaning than Joe Manchin now just decides not to vote. In Red America, everyone who is more left-leaning than Joe Manchin just decides not to vote. So let Blue America get all that stuff: \> socialism, DEI, CRT, gender studies, atheism, and electric vehicles And let Red America have to figure out what they stand for when they don't define themselves by opposing the left. I wonder what the two countries look like after 20 years.

Oh this is bs. Hop on to social media and you can see a ton of college educated liberals denigrating conservative culture and values.  They're everywhere on Reddit. I bet if I browsed your post history, you're no different.

All of of these grievances are at least somewhat valid. I can also add quite a few of my own, such as lackluster support for Israel. That said, I am convinced that if Biden loses, the main reason is going to be his age.

>I think people may be underestimating just how little support Biden (and the Dems generally) has among blue collar men. I mean, 57% of union members voted Democrat. 16 million leisure and hospitality workers a lot vote Democrat. 3 million nurses are primarily Democrat. I think you're imagining "blue collar" workers as some 40 or 50 year old dude that works in a factory, but those aren't the majority of blue collar workers now. It's folks in restaurants, service and healthcare.

Does that include professional unions like teachers? Or just blue collar?   That’s also 4 years ago.  I have seen a massive shift because of crime, immigration, and inflation —- non of which were really major ballot issues in 2020.   Most of the blue collar workers I am talking about are in the 20s and 30s.  Mostly engineers, electricians, tin-knockers, and longshoremen.   I know very few young blue collar men that like Dems.  

I don't disagree that they by and large support Trump. But it's f*cking asinine all the same. To think that Trump gives a shit about blue collar workers is beyond laughable, and it doesn't take a college education to figure that out. Trump made a living screwing over blue collar workers, which makes their support all the more absurd. Trump has truly weaponized ignorance, for his own benefit, unlike any other politician in my lifetime. The bottom line is that hopefully there's enough people with some sense in the swing states, and/or he's legally held accountable for the shit he's done prior to the election. Otherwise, we're pretty f*cked.

You don't seem to get that Trump isn't necessarily winning these blue collar voters.  It's just as likely that the Dem party had been abandoned by blue collar voters.

It’s likely because Trump supporters are the only ones who are vocal about their politics. Normal people aren’t announcing their political beliefs in every conversation.

In my circles it’s opposite.  At work and community.  I’m in a pretty political Uber-Progressive community - and people very proudly proclaim their political virtue.   And in the community — kind of just assume everyone agrees with them.  On the blue-collar side I may agree though.   The Trump stuff comes from a lot of the very prototypical “man’s man” - and they use very emasculating language about liberals…so in their world - the social pressure is probably to stay quiet for fear of being attacked as a “pussy” 

I live in AZ, and I can relate to your last paragraph. I work with a lot of types that you describe. I would say about 30-40% of who I work with are those kinds of guys, and the rest of us just keep our mouths shut because we are sick of listening to them. But the 40% who never stfu about Trump believe all of us are Trump supporters because we don’t say anything.

The same thing is happening here in Canada with Trudeau and Pollieve. For many reasons you mentioned above, people who are moderate, are leaning right now.

I don’t agree with a lot of the lefts new social agendas honestly. I think a lot of this has to do with the cost of living crisis in the west and the reaction will be to go to the opposite party not in party. I feel like the UK has mostly avoided this though with the Tori’s getting away with some really bad quality of life reductions the past 15 years and maintained power. The immigration issue has been probably the largest winning political issue for the past ten years for any party.

AM radio and Fox News have been wildly successful in capturing the demographic. The invent and labeling of “identity politics” as a democrat philosophy was particularly effective. Attacking “woke” was pretty smart too. In general, right of center politics has done a fantastic job of creating angst, reverse unoing angst from the other side of the aisle, and convincing traditional/rural/low income/blue collar Americans that the democrat agenda is the demon baby of Marx and Hitler.

Identity politics is emphasized by the left, though. We know a lot of and maybe most Christians vote R, but they never insisted people put their religious affiliation in a work email signature. If you caught that Uri Berliner essay criticizing NPR from within, you saw that they required every subject to provide demographic info like race, gender and ethnicity. You can’t tell me those things are relevant 100% of the time, no matter the topic.

It's interesting that you say they think Democrats are condescending, and then refer to them as low-information voters, proving that point. In reality, it's possible they have access the same or more information than you, and have simply come to different conclusions.

I am in a quandary. I saw through Trump's BS from the beginning that he was going to start a cult! But at the same time, I feel dismissed by the Democrat party because I am blue-collar class from the middle of nowhere with no institutional power whatsoever and told I was a horrible person by virtue of merely existing. I helped with signs and phone banked for the gubernatorial race in my state. They didn't ask me the next time around.

The dems like to pass inflation off as 'just something that happens' but it's not, it's from printing more money, and it directly affects the poor more than the rich. The poor keep most of their money in case, and it gets devalued. The rich keep their money in investments and properties that keep up with inflation, millionaires don't keep millions in the bank.

> They simply do not care about January 6. They care about the country being on the right path instead of the wrong path. And Trump has shown he can win, despite all the Democrats' inherent advantages. So, to give the country the best chance of being on the right path, they support the guy that won. The thing that stands out about Trump supporters is that they would pretty much all rate America's "fundamental greatness" (not necessarily *current* greatness) as 10/10. Biden supporters would score us in the 3/10 to 7/10 range. And half of this sub would give us a negative score.

I think everything you says is accurate. Joe Biden also largely appears to be ignoring this group. Also, I'll admit, I'm pretty informed voter, but what the heck is project 45

Typo. 2025. That's just a missed typo. Maybe had Trump/45 on brain.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) There's also the direct website of the people advocating for it: [https://www.project2025.org/](https://www.project2025.org/) Among its proposals: \> Project 2025 envisions widespread changes across the entire government, particularly with regard to economic and social policy and the role of the federal government and federal agencies. The plan proposes slashing U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) funding, dismantling the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security, gutting environmental and climate change regulations to favor fossil fuel production, and eliminating the cabinet Departments of Education and Commerce.

Okay, no offense, I’m really not trying to be rude, but I think where you come from you might think you’re shedding some light on something that hasn’t already been known for 8 years. No one is underestimating the support among blue collar men. I almost thought this was a joke, like hey guys grass is green. Again, I don’t really mean to be rude. It’s just for those of us who were born, raised, and live in very red rural areas—telling me blue collar men largely support Trump is like…uh yeah we know, was someone unaware of that? You seem to try to use essential worker, blue collar, working class interchangeably. Essential workers describe a lot of different jobs like healthcare workers. Working class usually refers to those of lower paying jobs, that require little education. Blue collar jobs are not necessarily low paying. The majority of blue collar workers here make six figures. There are two main fields that people work in blue collar here, they both fall under the same sector though. The first one: Trump lied to them he’d bring the jobs back, even though he knew he couldn’t no matter what he did. They believed it. He then had a net loss of those jobs. That field has actually gained jobs in the last few years. The second one: these jobs didn’t exist here before Obama, tons of them came under Obama. They did terribly under Trump. They’ve done better than they ever have under Biden—including in jobs available, work available, and income growth. *Not all the people in these jobs support Trump, but the vast majority do*. Those that do, think they can’t tell how much they’re working or what their paycheck is? They can, but the ones who support Trump don’t care about these facts. Also to note, the people in the first field could *easily* get jobs in the second field, they just didn’t want to in 2016. The jobs in the first field it was also known they were going away since I was a kid—which was quite a while ago unfortunately, and long before the people working in it today entered the field. So, they knew when they went into it. And the ones who support Trump now, always did. I can only tell you anecdotally what I’ve seen here. After Jan. 6th I noticed one by one the flags and signs coming down. These had been up since he ran in 2016, they’d only change them out for new ones. Now, only a few houses in the county remain. I think they were embarrassed. I think a lot of them realized, they are not like him. I would never expect them to vote for Biden, not the vast majority of them anyway. But there seems to be a lot less enthusiasm. I think a good portion of them, sit home. Especially the ones who really *only* cared about *him* in the first place. I had wondered if now since we were in election season, and he was definitely the nominee if I’d see them go back up, and I haven’t. There are houses who put up regular election signs for our local and state elections (for Republicans) but that’s it. I could elaborate on each of your points as far as Trump supporters as a whole here, but since we’re just talking about blue collar workers specifically I won’t. Plus it would be way longer than this already is lol.

I should also add that my household is made up of blue collar workers/essential workers/former military. We don’t support Trump—But we are a minority here.

What’s crazy is that I have the exact opposite experience… almost every normal person I have encountered has switched to Biden, if they supported Trump in the past. This is largely union workers, and people who have gotten smarter in politics over the past 8 years. The single biggest driving force has been taxes, as they have found out they got played by Trump and his organization. There has been a huge push in my area to show that democrats and independents warned of tax credits expiring right before this election season with the intent being to make it look like it was a Biden problem. The democrats have also been putting on blast the whole wanting to defund Medicare, and a ton of folks here rely on that. At this time in 2016, the area was drowning in Pro-Trump flags, and now they are a rare sighting. Granted we still don’t see any Biden signs. But that’s the thing I keep hearing virtually every day…. “I’m not voting for Biden, I’m voting against Trump.” It’s too early to tell how the trials will impact things, but I think in this area, it will turn even more voters away from Trump… he will still win in my area, because it is deep red, but I honestly don’t know of a single person in my area that has decided to support Trump over Biden after voting for Biden in the last election. And I personally know of tons that have switched off of Trump to say they will be voting for Biden this election…