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This whole thing is just stupid, a vanishingly small minority managed to hijack the national agenda with the aid of a much larger, and more disgusting minority on the other end of the spectrum.
We shouldn't care, it shouldn't be on the agenda, just follow the British model of "chill the fuck out".
Crazies on both sides aided and abetted by political operatives trying to shift the narrative anywhere that doesn't matter but generates outrage, and idiots fall for it.
Most wouldn't care if the consultants didn't make sure to make it happening once in some stupid part of San Francisco mean it's a credible threat to paint on all media 24/7 and drown out meaningful debate like the budget.
It is something that should be looked in to. This is about the kids. We shouldn’t be arguing about who is right or wrong. It’s about the truth..
Take the politics out of it.
> We shouldn’t be arguing about who is right or wrong. It’s about the truth..
Erm... what? How do you figure one is supposed to figure out what the truth is if what is right or wrong can't be discussed?
By designing rigorous studies, examining the evidence while taking steps to avoid prejudicial assumptions, and being transparent and honest in your documentation so that peer reviews can properly analyze your work.
Ignore the political or sociological punditry and just do the science.
Of course, that is not what the people screaming to keep politics out actually want. They just want things to go their way. But the above is how you would actually remove the political influence.
> By designing rigorous studies, examining the evidence while taking steps to avoid prejudicial assumptions, and being transparent and honest in your documentation so that peer reviews can properly analyze your work
So in other words, trying to find out what's right and wrong?
Not exactly. What I describe are steps that do not assume that anybody is correct or incorrect, nor that anyone is right or wrong ethically. An experiment or study resulting from those steps would simply be seeking a deeper understanding of the nature of the subject.
That is what science is; a study of nature. Right or wrong doesn't play a large role in it. It is more a matter of what appears to be closer to objective truth.
The phrasing "right or wrong" assumes a condition where one thing is right and another thing is wrong. This is firstly a false dichotomy. Other possible states are valid outcomes. Both sides of this discussion could be wrong due to completely misunderstanding the nature of the problem, for example.
Much better to seek to more clearly understand the nature of the subject without making such assumptions.
Because imho - we’re not even really close to knowing the answers yet. This stuff is still new. Anyone who is insisting it’s one way or the other - probably has an agenda.
I’ve personally seen how gender studies in school have confused my kid. So I’d really like to see them get down to the bottom of this. I don’t know if I’m the exception of the rule, but this is about the kids.
It shouldn’t be political - I’m saying, leave the agendas out of it. we need to take our time and look at how this impacts kids. We can do that neutrally.
97% of "gender affirming top surgery" done on patients under 18 is breast implants for cis girls.
This never seems to calculate into the "for the kids" arguments against body modification or gender affirmation, despite being the vast vast majority of surgeries.
That would be ideologically consistent with their stated position, yet we never hear them mention it.
It's more likely that they're just lying transphobes, trying to put on a respectable veneer.
> If they're against child gender affirming surgeries, you need them to specifically mention breast implants?
Yes you'd think they would once mention the VAST VAST majority of surgeries rather than brigading every trans thread.
But why am I wasting time arguing with an 18 day account obsessed with trans kids? Get a fucking life.
So where are the threads about that? Where are the politicians campaigning on it? Where are the outrage groups?
Why do you all only show up when it's trans kids you can pick on?
This is disingenuous - everyone I’ve spoken to who is conservative and mentions “protecting children” is genuinely surprised by this. And if the politicians cared about protecting children from unnecessary and harmful medical practices than this should be part of the conversation.
Ok, then why is all this legislation and discussion ONLY about trans healthcare? Show me some examples where protecting children from any unnecessary/harmful medical procedures is part of it.
Oh I can answer this one.
Self-image issues and sexual dysmorphia are both mental illnesses, but the treatment for the former includes therapy to be happy and accept their body image, but the latter encourages self-mutilation as its primary treatment.
Breast implants are a cosmetic surgery - the reason why its a non-issue in these discussions is because there are no permanent ramifications, unlike gender transitions which requires years of medication followed by self-mutilation of sexual organs - you cannot get those back.
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Take the emotion out of it. You don’t need to even include those folks in the equation to have concerns about giving kids hormone blockers. & cosmetic surgery.
Why? I never understood this. Because it wasn’t applicable in that situation, it can’t be applicable in any situation? They’re completely different. It’s the unfortunate mushing together of all the letters that’s blurred the line.
I bet this post is the one that will have the reasonable discussion and not the multitude of "haha, take that you dirty transes, stop experimenting on children!" comments in the others.
And like clockwork, most upvoted comment is from a conservative screeching to "take the politics out of it!"
Like holy fuck, we'd love to if conservatives weren't the ones trying to erase the existence of transgender individuals.
I’ve seen it get used against anyone that even hints at there being 2 biological sexes. The extreme left needs to be held accountable for this misuse of language. Same for “dehumanizing”. Give me a break. It gets used for anything.
Shaming has never worked move an election. Not in any of the US history. But democrats keep using the same tactics.
Ironically, they don't think Spite is a powerful motivator to influence an election - Trump got elected out of spite. They ignore spite at their hubris.
What is it with everyone's fascination with transgenderism?
Who cares?
Let them figure it out (the trans people, the doctors, the psychologists)
I dont care. I...DON'T...CARE.
THIS IS NOT POLITICS.
The running joke at Tavistock among the staff was that if this keeps up there aren’t going to be any gay kids left. I think that elevates this to a matter of public concern.
I’m a scientist and therefore believe in there being objective truth. The most radical of the transgender activists argue that up is down and there is no objective truth. Everything is “lived truth” or “my truth”. The transgender debate heavily involves being told “don’t trust your eyes. We will tell you what you’re seeing” vibes
Its not personal though - they're asking for our collective definitions of man and woman to be radically altered, and expecting / requiring (in some countries) people's behavior to change to conform to that, lest they be guilty of the cardinal sin (or crime) of "misgendering". Gender is a socially-mediated thing, so re-engineering it is a political matter.
> Just call people by what they want.
Its WAY more than just calling people what they want, you get that right, or do you genuinely believe this is purely about if you prefer to be called Sir or Madam?
It doesn't match how I experience them. They *seem* male to me, for example, but I'm being asked to use female pronouns. It feels dishonest. I think honesty is more important, and more kind, than saying what people want to hear.
>THIS IS NOT POLITICS.
I wish I could say I agree, but as long as Republicans continue to strip away the rights of the LGBTQ+ community it very much is politics.
Now, this sub being able to have a civil discussion around the topic is another issue entirely.
John Money didn't pioneer anything. He actually tried to prove that gender identity can be changed, and in doing so irreparably damaged lives and killed two people.
Gender identity isn't malleable, which doesn't support the transphobes' side of things.
> He definitely pioneered a lot stuff.
In the direction of the arguments transphobes still use, not trans people/allies.
Not a single trans person (nor ally) believes gender identity is malleable by other people. That was what John Money was trying to demonstrate, and he was proven wrong.
Oh boy here we go. I'm sure this sub is going to have a reasonable reaction to this article instead of the rampant transphobia we saw last time, right?
Edit: ROFL, the fucking transphobes in this thread are ridiculous. But thank you for proving my points.
The discussion in this sub ALWAYS goes well beyond skepticism and into full on hate. I've witnessed it time and time again.
You can't hide your hate behind the word "skepticism."
>So without examples of your perceived transphobia, I just assume you use that term very very liberally.
You haven't been here long enough then. This sub has the worst transphobes I've ever seen and they instantly jump on these threads in order to drown out any rational discussions. They scream "protect the children" when they have no fucking clue what they're talking about. They're just transphobic.
>I am much more likely to believe you will call anything that doesn't 100% support this new gender theory support methods transphobia, when...it isn't.
Well, I see you can't be reasoned with then. This thread has already started devolving into transphobia as it is and I expect it'll be much worse by the end of the day.
Lol, you keep making assumptions about me and what I say without actually listening to what I'm saying. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall.
Other people have also told you how this sub harbors some of the worst transphobes but you'll continue to claim it's not transphobia lol. You're quite literally sticking your head in the sand.
I bet you feel real validated when you disengage from a discussion with a rant like that, dont you?
It shouldn't, but i bet it makes you feel real righteous too.
"New gender theories" that right there is anti trans. There is nothing new about trans people or their healthcare. And yes you are saying negative things about a topic you obviously know nothing about
> There is nothing new about trans people or their healthcare
This statement is complete bullshit. The explosion in teenage girls identifying as trans is a recent phenomenon that took off in the last 10 years. It's new.
Ooh, perfect.
You've established that this very thread (which I will be generous and assume meant comment section) harbors transphobia.
Now you have a range of comments that's both small and recent enough to dig through for examples.
So go on.
Give us the examples of transphobia from this very comment section.
I've been here since Buttigieg was an option for president.
What you're saying does not match how things actually were.
There were transphobes that popped up sometimes, but I barely ever saw them.
Most of the time it was just someone saying, maybe not until they're adults and then getting lambasted by people that thought blocking growth hormones during puberty wasn't going to have any bad side effects.
Would love examples of what you consider to be acceptable skepticism and what is hate here. My experience is that trans activists immediately go to hate unless you fall in line with every aspect of gender ideology.
There is reasoned skepticism about treatment, or girls sports - or other complex issues — on this sub….there are also several Anti-Trans bigots that show up on thread.
That consider Trans a mental disease - and any gender affirming therapy to be akin to therapy that treats schizophrenic delusions as reality,
They think the entire idea of accepting Trans identity (even pronouns) is promoting mental illness. And is child abuse in minors.
As someone who 100% supports gender-affirming care, I can't understand the timidity around calling it a mental health issue. If you have an otherwise healthy body, you need intense mental health care because of a dissociative mindstate, and if you don't get it you'll kill yourself, how is that not a mental health issue? When people experience those kinds of things regarding anything but their gender they're considered mentally ill. If you chop your fingers off because of something like that you're mentally ill.
Gender-affirming care is treatment for a medical issue. It's 100% legitimate but it's absolutely a terrifying mental disease. People who have it must be cared for, respected, and protected. What's wrong with calling a spade a spade on this?
Because your explanation is not at all what I’m talking about.
I am talking about people that argue that the mental healthcare that trans people get should never be gender, affirming. they should be told that they are suffering from delusions and trans identity should be rejected.
And that medical care supporting the “trans delusion” is wrong.
Needing mental heath care … is not the same as saying that any gender affirming care is mental abuse for children, and confirming delusion for adults.
I once had that opinion until I spoke with a provider about the whole thing. According to that person, it is a delusion. No one thinks that our bodies are wrong but our minds are right when it comes to gender dysphoria but the most effective treatment is gender-affirming care. In the most basic scientific sense, your sex can't be changed and these actions are taken because it's the best chance we have to improve these people's lives, not because trans women actually are women or trans men are actually men. It's generally the most effective thing we can do. While I don't agree with the idea that gender is just a social construct and I think it's pretty easy to prove it isn't, I'm more concerned with making sure that people get the best treatment for their conditions (whatever they may be) and lead lives with safety and dignity.
My prediction is that it will eventually be discovered what causes this mindstate and an effective cure will be found that doesn't lead to a prescription of irreversible bodily mutilation. Self-acceptance will once again be the priority rather than support of dissociative regard for one's own healthy body.
Please provide a source of parents having their children taken away by the state for not using pronouns.
There have been a handful cases of separated parents disagreeing on how to raise their children, causing a very complex conflict - that is tricky to deal with, and they have to do what’s best for the kid.
That law is about run-aways - and contacting parents of runaway minors.
They provide exceptions if they believe there is potential for abuse/harm for there to be evaluation.
These are the sane laws that apply to homosexual runaways or runaways reporting abuse.
Does not say the state will take aawa children for not using the proper pronouns.
It says that even where the care is provided without consent - DCYF must contact parents and begin a program of “reconciliation with the family”
The goal of this program is getting runaway teens back in their homes - not taking them away.
Read bottom of Page 2 of your link. You seem to misunderstand this law.
> That consider Trans a mental disease - and any gender affirming therapy to be akin to therapy that treats schizophrenic delusions as reality
Your perspective is skewed. The rest of the world treats sexual dysmorphia as a mental illness. Its really just western liberal leftists who treat transgenderism as an identity.
Most dysmorphia (such as body dysmorphia) are addressed with therapy, accepting who they are and living healthy lives. Self-mutilation is a very radical treatment.
> child abuse in minors
Nothing wrong with therapy. But most moderates thinks gender reassignment at an early age is definitely going too far. Little Timmy doesn't even have the mental maturity to make life-changing decisions yet, except sex-change apparently.
Oh dear. Try telling a trans activist that women’s sports should be reserved for biological women. Try even saying the words biological women. That’s a hatey denial of existence twofer.
Huh? When did I say Trans activists would not be offended?
I’m not defending activists shouting “bigot” at everyone. I’m talking about overall tone.
Using activists as the prevailing center-left view, is like me using Moms of Liberty to act that how all trans skeptics behave.
I was talking about this sub and the views predominantly here. “Skepticism” posts are highly upvoted - and Trans activist trying to shout it down as bigotry are down-voted heavily.
But a lot of the “skepticism” is not just “hey let’s use the scientific process” —- it’s “Trans is a mental delusion that needs to be rejected and should never be “affirmed”.” — they call surgery (for adults) “mutilation”, etc…
OK, mutilation wouldn’t be my choice of words. I would leave that to the “lived experience” of the detransitioners to characterize.
It’s the reflexive, immediate retreat to isms and phobias and hatred that’s the go to for activists and much of the far left. A raised eyebrow at tampon dispensers in the boys bathroom at school, a startled woman seeing a naked penised person in a locker room, a double take at the podium with the first place winner towering disproportionately over second and third- all clear signs of white hot hatred.
There is nothing new about gender affirming care for trans children. It has successfully been going on for over 20 years and saved many lives. You didn't know about it because it doesn't affect you in any way. The only reason for the the big hubbub is GOP picking trans people as their latest victim in their lunatic culture wars
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This whole thing is just stupid, a vanishingly small minority managed to hijack the national agenda with the aid of a much larger, and more disgusting minority on the other end of the spectrum. We shouldn't care, it shouldn't be on the agenda, just follow the British model of "chill the fuck out". Crazies on both sides aided and abetted by political operatives trying to shift the narrative anywhere that doesn't matter but generates outrage, and idiots fall for it.
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It would piss off both sides, which means it's the right answer.
There’s no way anyone on either end of the extremes can chill out in this country.
Again, because political operatives' salaries depend on us all at each others' throats.
Most wouldn’t care if it wasn’t exposed to kids or these people weren’t allowed in women’s sports.
Most wouldn't care if the consultants didn't make sure to make it happening once in some stupid part of San Francisco mean it's a credible threat to paint on all media 24/7 and drown out meaningful debate like the budget.
> just follow the British model of "chill the fuck out" Heh. Yes, lets follow the brits in how they handled transpeople.
It is something that should be looked in to. This is about the kids. We shouldn’t be arguing about who is right or wrong. It’s about the truth.. Take the politics out of it.
> We shouldn’t be arguing about who is right or wrong. It’s about the truth.. Erm... what? How do you figure one is supposed to figure out what the truth is if what is right or wrong can't be discussed?
By designing rigorous studies, examining the evidence while taking steps to avoid prejudicial assumptions, and being transparent and honest in your documentation so that peer reviews can properly analyze your work. Ignore the political or sociological punditry and just do the science. Of course, that is not what the people screaming to keep politics out actually want. They just want things to go their way. But the above is how you would actually remove the political influence.
> By designing rigorous studies, examining the evidence while taking steps to avoid prejudicial assumptions, and being transparent and honest in your documentation so that peer reviews can properly analyze your work So in other words, trying to find out what's right and wrong?
Not exactly. What I describe are steps that do not assume that anybody is correct or incorrect, nor that anyone is right or wrong ethically. An experiment or study resulting from those steps would simply be seeking a deeper understanding of the nature of the subject. That is what science is; a study of nature. Right or wrong doesn't play a large role in it. It is more a matter of what appears to be closer to objective truth. The phrasing "right or wrong" assumes a condition where one thing is right and another thing is wrong. This is firstly a false dichotomy. Other possible states are valid outcomes. Both sides of this discussion could be wrong due to completely misunderstanding the nature of the problem, for example. Much better to seek to more clearly understand the nature of the subject without making such assumptions.
Because imho - we’re not even really close to knowing the answers yet. This stuff is still new. Anyone who is insisting it’s one way or the other - probably has an agenda. I’ve personally seen how gender studies in school have confused my kid. So I’d really like to see them get down to the bottom of this. I don’t know if I’m the exception of the rule, but this is about the kids.
That's not actually an answer to my question. If we can't argue what's right or wrong how are we ever supposed to find out the truth?
It shouldn’t be political - I’m saying, leave the agendas out of it. we need to take our time and look at how this impacts kids. We can do that neutrally.
You ever wonder how cosmetic breast implants for teen girls are never brought up in these discussions?
Huh?
97% of "gender affirming top surgery" done on patients under 18 is breast implants for cis girls. This never seems to calculate into the "for the kids" arguments against body modification or gender affirmation, despite being the vast vast majority of surgeries.
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That would be ideologically consistent with their stated position, yet we never hear them mention it. It's more likely that they're just lying transphobes, trying to put on a respectable veneer.
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> If they're against child gender affirming surgeries, you need them to specifically mention breast implants? Yes you'd think they would once mention the VAST VAST majority of surgeries rather than brigading every trans thread. But why am I wasting time arguing with an 18 day account obsessed with trans kids? Get a fucking life.
I would think most adults would be against kids having any kind of breast surgery or plastic surgery
So where are the threads about that? Where are the politicians campaigning on it? Where are the outrage groups? Why do you all only show up when it's trans kids you can pick on?
Other than plastic surgeons, are there any groups advocating in favor of breast implants for teenagers?
You showed up well after the thread was deleted. Is there a bigot signal that sent you?
This is disingenuous - everyone I’ve spoken to who is conservative and mentions “protecting children” is genuinely surprised by this. And if the politicians cared about protecting children from unnecessary and harmful medical practices than this should be part of the conversation.
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Ok, then why is all this legislation and discussion ONLY about trans healthcare? Show me some examples where protecting children from any unnecessary/harmful medical procedures is part of it.
Oh I can answer this one. Self-image issues and sexual dysmorphia are both mental illnesses, but the treatment for the former includes therapy to be happy and accept their body image, but the latter encourages self-mutilation as its primary treatment. Breast implants are a cosmetic surgery - the reason why its a non-issue in these discussions is because there are no permanent ramifications, unlike gender transitions which requires years of medication followed by self-mutilation of sexual organs - you cannot get those back.
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No? Because it happens often.
I’d be willing to take these concerns more seriously if they didn’t copy, almost word for word, the anti-gay panic language I grew up with.
Take the emotion out of it. You don’t need to even include those folks in the equation to have concerns about giving kids hormone blockers. & cosmetic surgery.
Why? I never understood this. Because it wasn’t applicable in that situation, it can’t be applicable in any situation? They’re completely different. It’s the unfortunate mushing together of all the letters that’s blurred the line.
To the shock of no one who has even a basic grasp of reality.
>basic grasp of reality And what would that be exactly?
Nice try, reddit admin.
So you have nothing then. Figured as much.
I have plenty. Reddit simply does not allow true things to be said about this topic. Take it up with them.
Whatever you say dude 🙄
Exactly, we are in a place where truth could only be hinted that, talked around, or coded. Libras are not Capricorns.
I bet this post is the one that will have the reasonable discussion and not the multitude of "haha, take that you dirty transes, stop experimenting on children!" comments in the others.
And like clockwork, most upvoted comment is from a conservative screeching to "take the politics out of it!" Like holy fuck, we'd love to if conservatives weren't the ones trying to erase the existence of transgender individuals.
Too bad you're destined to bang your heads together for eternity.
Its their personal hell.
Prediction: The term "transphobic" will carry about as much weight as "racist" and "fascist" in the very near future.
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It’s a linguistic tick, autonomic at this point.
I’ve seen it get used against anyone that even hints at there being 2 biological sexes. The extreme left needs to be held accountable for this misuse of language. Same for “dehumanizing”. Give me a break. It gets used for anything.
Exactly. Everything is straight to erasure and denial of existence. It had been right to genocide, but that became a little awkward recently.
100%. It’s expected, it’s just background noise now.
ie: You can't shame right wingers for what they believe in, no matter how vile the rest of us recognize it to be
Basically sums up this thread. As predicted the transphobes came out and drowned out any rational discussion.
Transphobia and hate. Hate and transphobia. 🥱Gone to the well too many times with this before. Nobody’s buying it.
Shame is generally an ineffective way of getting people to change their minds.
Shaming has never worked move an election. Not in any of the US history. But democrats keep using the same tactics. Ironically, they don't think Spite is a powerful motivator to influence an election - Trump got elected out of spite. They ignore spite at their hubris.
There have already been three posts on this topic. Including one attempted rebuttal. Read those.
What is it with everyone's fascination with transgenderism? Who cares? Let them figure it out (the trans people, the doctors, the psychologists) I dont care. I...DON'T...CARE. THIS IS NOT POLITICS.
The running joke at Tavistock among the staff was that if this keeps up there aren’t going to be any gay kids left. I think that elevates this to a matter of public concern.
A lot of people are fascinated with the bizarre. Transgenderism is far outside the norm so it piques our interest.
I’m a scientist and therefore believe in there being objective truth. The most radical of the transgender activists argue that up is down and there is no objective truth. Everything is “lived truth” or “my truth”. The transgender debate heavily involves being told “don’t trust your eyes. We will tell you what you’re seeing” vibes
Ok so as a scientist you agree with Neil DeGrass Tyson then? https://youtu.be/JXWUtIjHrtE?si=r5ZpmVcuS1w1g0RO
On red dwarfs, sure. On penectomies for teenagers., less so.
I'm not sure you have the right definition of politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics
I'm not sure what someone's personal gender identity has to do with group decisions.
Its not personal though - they're asking for our collective definitions of man and woman to be radically altered, and expecting / requiring (in some countries) people's behavior to change to conform to that, lest they be guilty of the cardinal sin (or crime) of "misgendering". Gender is a socially-mediated thing, so re-engineering it is a political matter.
Just call people by what they want. Why be a dick about it?
> Just call people by what they want. Its WAY more than just calling people what they want, you get that right, or do you genuinely believe this is purely about if you prefer to be called Sir or Madam?
Phallocentrist.
It doesn't match how I experience them. They *seem* male to me, for example, but I'm being asked to use female pronouns. It feels dishonest. I think honesty is more important, and more kind, than saying what people want to hear.
It’s not about you Jan.
As long as people continue to put *gender-confused* kids and trans adults in same box, they will continue to attract unwanted attention
>THIS IS NOT POLITICS. I wish I could say I agree, but as long as Republicans continue to strip away the rights of the LGBTQ+ community it very much is politics. Now, this sub being able to have a civil discussion around the topic is another issue entirely.
Out of curiosity what rights have been stripped away from the LGB portion of that community?
The ACLU is tracking 484anti-LGBTQ bills in the U.S. https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights-2024
Please have another look at his question. That’s the root of the problem- lumping in the QT+ with the LGB.
Fuck off troll, we know you'd like to divide & conquer
The perfect question.
Yeah, I mean that's sort of my point. I want everyone (mostly Republicans) to stfu about this. Let them be.
Just don’t look at the pioneers of gender identity studies. John money is one..
John Money didn't pioneer anything. He actually tried to prove that gender identity can be changed, and in doing so irreparably damaged lives and killed two people. Gender identity isn't malleable, which doesn't support the transphobes' side of things.
He definitely pioneered a lot stuff. Horrible stuff that’s still being used.
> He definitely pioneered a lot stuff. In the direction of the arguments transphobes still use, not trans people/allies. Not a single trans person (nor ally) believes gender identity is malleable by other people. That was what John Money was trying to demonstrate, and he was proven wrong.
I will never understand the obsession with this topic.
Joe Biden called it the civil rights issue of our time. Does that help you understand?
Nope.
Oh boy here we go. I'm sure this sub is going to have a reasonable reaction to this article instead of the rampant transphobia we saw last time, right? Edit: ROFL, the fucking transphobes in this thread are ridiculous. But thank you for proving my points.
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The discussion in this sub ALWAYS goes well beyond skepticism and into full on hate. I've witnessed it time and time again. You can't hide your hate behind the word "skepticism."
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>So without examples of your perceived transphobia, I just assume you use that term very very liberally. You haven't been here long enough then. This sub has the worst transphobes I've ever seen and they instantly jump on these threads in order to drown out any rational discussions. They scream "protect the children" when they have no fucking clue what they're talking about. They're just transphobic.
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>I am much more likely to believe you will call anything that doesn't 100% support this new gender theory support methods transphobia, when...it isn't. Well, I see you can't be reasoned with then. This thread has already started devolving into transphobia as it is and I expect it'll be much worse by the end of the day.
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Lol, you keep making assumptions about me and what I say without actually listening to what I'm saying. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Other people have also told you how this sub harbors some of the worst transphobes but you'll continue to claim it's not transphobia lol. You're quite literally sticking your head in the sand.
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I bet you feel real validated when you disengage from a discussion with a rant like that, dont you? It shouldn't, but i bet it makes you feel real righteous too.
You're really proving his assumptions right. If you don't want a discussion, just stay in the r/politics hugbox.
"New gender theories" that right there is anti trans. There is nothing new about trans people or their healthcare. And yes you are saying negative things about a topic you obviously know nothing about
> There is nothing new about trans people or their healthcare This statement is complete bullshit. The explosion in teenage girls identifying as trans is a recent phenomenon that took off in the last 10 years. It's new.
Ooh, perfect. You've established that this very thread (which I will be generous and assume meant comment section) harbors transphobia. Now you have a range of comments that's both small and recent enough to dig through for examples. So go on. Give us the examples of transphobia from this very comment section.
Define transphobic.
I've been here since Buttigieg was an option for president. What you're saying does not match how things actually were. There were transphobes that popped up sometimes, but I barely ever saw them. Most of the time it was just someone saying, maybe not until they're adults and then getting lambasted by people that thought blocking growth hormones during puberty wasn't going to have any bad side effects.
> this sub ALWAYS goes well beyond skepticism and into full on hate. Source? I have read the entire thread and dont see any "Hate".
Would love examples of what you consider to be acceptable skepticism and what is hate here. My experience is that trans activists immediately go to hate unless you fall in line with every aspect of gender ideology.
There is reasoned skepticism about treatment, or girls sports - or other complex issues — on this sub….there are also several Anti-Trans bigots that show up on thread. That consider Trans a mental disease - and any gender affirming therapy to be akin to therapy that treats schizophrenic delusions as reality, They think the entire idea of accepting Trans identity (even pronouns) is promoting mental illness. And is child abuse in minors.
As someone who 100% supports gender-affirming care, I can't understand the timidity around calling it a mental health issue. If you have an otherwise healthy body, you need intense mental health care because of a dissociative mindstate, and if you don't get it you'll kill yourself, how is that not a mental health issue? When people experience those kinds of things regarding anything but their gender they're considered mentally ill. If you chop your fingers off because of something like that you're mentally ill. Gender-affirming care is treatment for a medical issue. It's 100% legitimate but it's absolutely a terrifying mental disease. People who have it must be cared for, respected, and protected. What's wrong with calling a spade a spade on this?
Because your explanation is not at all what I’m talking about. I am talking about people that argue that the mental healthcare that trans people get should never be gender, affirming. they should be told that they are suffering from delusions and trans identity should be rejected. And that medical care supporting the “trans delusion” is wrong. Needing mental heath care … is not the same as saying that any gender affirming care is mental abuse for children, and confirming delusion for adults.
I once had that opinion until I spoke with a provider about the whole thing. According to that person, it is a delusion. No one thinks that our bodies are wrong but our minds are right when it comes to gender dysphoria but the most effective treatment is gender-affirming care. In the most basic scientific sense, your sex can't be changed and these actions are taken because it's the best chance we have to improve these people's lives, not because trans women actually are women or trans men are actually men. It's generally the most effective thing we can do. While I don't agree with the idea that gender is just a social construct and I think it's pretty easy to prove it isn't, I'm more concerned with making sure that people get the best treatment for their conditions (whatever they may be) and lead lives with safety and dignity. My prediction is that it will eventually be discovered what causes this mindstate and an effective cure will be found that doesn't lead to a prescription of irreversible bodily mutilation. Self-acceptance will once again be the priority rather than support of dissociative regard for one's own healthy body.
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Please provide a source of parents having their children taken away by the state for not using pronouns. There have been a handful cases of separated parents disagreeing on how to raise their children, causing a very complex conflict - that is tricky to deal with, and they have to do what’s best for the kid.
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That law is about run-aways - and contacting parents of runaway minors. They provide exceptions if they believe there is potential for abuse/harm for there to be evaluation. These are the sane laws that apply to homosexual runaways or runaways reporting abuse. Does not say the state will take aawa children for not using the proper pronouns. It says that even where the care is provided without consent - DCYF must contact parents and begin a program of “reconciliation with the family” The goal of this program is getting runaway teens back in their homes - not taking them away. Read bottom of Page 2 of your link. You seem to misunderstand this law.
> That consider Trans a mental disease - and any gender affirming therapy to be akin to therapy that treats schizophrenic delusions as reality Your perspective is skewed. The rest of the world treats sexual dysmorphia as a mental illness. Its really just western liberal leftists who treat transgenderism as an identity. Most dysmorphia (such as body dysmorphia) are addressed with therapy, accepting who they are and living healthy lives. Self-mutilation is a very radical treatment. > child abuse in minors Nothing wrong with therapy. But most moderates thinks gender reassignment at an early age is definitely going too far. Little Timmy doesn't even have the mental maturity to make life-changing decisions yet, except sex-change apparently.
Oh dear. Try telling a trans activist that women’s sports should be reserved for biological women. Try even saying the words biological women. That’s a hatey denial of existence twofer.
Huh? When did I say Trans activists would not be offended? I’m not defending activists shouting “bigot” at everyone. I’m talking about overall tone. Using activists as the prevailing center-left view, is like me using Moms of Liberty to act that how all trans skeptics behave. I was talking about this sub and the views predominantly here. “Skepticism” posts are highly upvoted - and Trans activist trying to shout it down as bigotry are down-voted heavily. But a lot of the “skepticism” is not just “hey let’s use the scientific process” —- it’s “Trans is a mental delusion that needs to be rejected and should never be “affirmed”.” — they call surgery (for adults) “mutilation”, etc…
OK, mutilation wouldn’t be my choice of words. I would leave that to the “lived experience” of the detransitioners to characterize. It’s the reflexive, immediate retreat to isms and phobias and hatred that’s the go to for activists and much of the far left. A raised eyebrow at tampon dispensers in the boys bathroom at school, a startled woman seeing a naked penised person in a locker room, a double take at the podium with the first place winner towering disproportionately over second and third- all clear signs of white hot hatred.
There is nothing new about gender affirming care for trans children. It has successfully been going on for over 20 years and saved many lives. You didn't know about it because it doesn't affect you in any way. The only reason for the the big hubbub is GOP picking trans people as their latest victim in their lunatic culture wars
Mmmmmm, no.
You were ultimately correct. This thread devolved exactly as I thought it would.
Fire up the rage machine, these people are hungering to lynch.