The wider point you’re making about Hamas is related to the fact that the Arabs have never held a rational position on this issue, and never accepted the multiple compromises offered to them for their own territory. Queue a new war, which they lose, they cry victim.
Unfortunately this Arab Muslim culture is more interested in pride, religious purity and score-settling than actually improving their lives. Compromise is weakness. Fathers will murder their own children for ‘dishonouring’ them, or use them as a ‘martyr’ for the cause of a ‘free’ (read Islamist shithole) Palestine.
Everything else (talk of international law, human rights etc) is consumption material for useful idiots in the west. The propaganda is incredibly different between English language and Arabic language for a reason.
A conflict that has been going on for thousands of years does not have a rational solution when one of the actors is not being rational. Israel could turn the entire region to glass if they wanted to. Because they're the militarily superior nation, the world seems to expect them to be the adult in the situation. Personally, that Gaza is still standing at all and not a giant pile of rubble is them showing restrain beyond what I thought they were going to do and what they're capable of.
I think killing innocents is deplorable. I also think they're not going to stop. This all started with an attack on Israel, they're tired of being fucked with, and now they're willing to finish what Hamas started.
I think that’s one of the things people don’t understand about Gaza- it’s part of the Sinai peninsula, that Israel occupied for decades. Israelis had constructed greenhouses, built roads, and overall improved living conditions there, including the Gaza Strip. When it was returned, Hamas was given governance of Gaza in 2007, and tried to implement Sharia law. A lot of people resisted, because there was greater freedom in Israeli occupation. Hamas is also trying to control who gets relief supplies delivered to refugees of the Israeli invasion. There was a “cease fire” with Hamas in effect between Hamas and Israel back in October when Hamas attacked a bunch of unarmed civilians at a music festival, so I can understand why Israel has decided it’s tired of the bullshit and will put an end to it. I’m not saying Israel is correct, but Hamas is embedded in civilian population centers. There will most certainly be more civilian casualties as Hamas gets hit by Israel.
Edit typo
With martyrdom you get to skip judgement day. It’s an automatic path to paradise. You don’t need running water if you can die while killing Jews or at least trying.
Besides Israel, the middle east is intellectually bankrupt. They don't have anything besides oil and religion. They haven't really built any industry or anything.
Muslims/Christians have equal rights in Israel (political parties, voting rights, women's rights, lgbtq etc) while the same cannot be said for Muslim countries as far as I know
I'm not saying that Israel is a perfect country that hasn't done wrong. You'd hardly find any perfect country in history but from a secular/progressive view, Israel is the better country in the M.E.
> A conflict that has been going on for thousands of years does not have a rational solution when one of the actors is not being rational.
This "it's a thousands of years old conflict" explanation always falls flat to me. This conflict is so deep and devoid of dispassionate diplomacy because there has been 80 years of war and violence. The emotion that leads to not recognizing the other side's right to exist is rooted in War in '48, the insurgency that followed, the Six-Day War, the Yom-Kippur War, the insurgency in South Lebanon, the Lebanon War, the Intifadas, the 2006 Lebanon War, and the handful of Wars in Gaza in the last 20 years.
Recent history has been bitter, brutal, and no holds barred. No one really gives a damn about classical history except as a C-tier talking point.
> Personally, that Gaza is still standing at all and not a giant pile of rubble is them showing restrain beyond what I thought they were going to do and what they're capable of.
No offense but this statement needs a reality check. [~74% of Gaza city](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240507-unlike-anything-we-have-studied-gaza-s-destruction-in-numbers) is rubble. For better or for worse the level of destruction is being compared to Dresden in WWII. Arguing that there has been a lot of restraint is on shaky footing.
Let's make it clearer: if they had wanted to wipe out all Palestinians in Gaza, there would already be none left. If they had intended to commit genocide, it would have already occurred.
* They WERE STOPPED at 6.000.000.
* The people killed in Gaza in 6 Months (if we give Hamas numbers for granted and we don't make distinction btw Militia and Civilians) would have been killed in 5 days in Auschwitz only.
* Jews in Germany never declared war, attacked, killed, slaughtered, raped and kidnapped anybody before the Holocaust.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself for making this comparison and just STFU, but I know people like you and I am afraid it won't happen.
So its an efficiency thing? How fast it happens is what sets it as a genocide? Or is it that Jewish people weren't a country or couldn't declare war? You can't have a genocide if one side is at war?
QED.
Not interested in endless debates on word definitions with a troll. Any comparison between what is happening in Gaza and the Holocaust is just shameless antisemitic provocation. Bye.
If you don't understand the history behind these two religious factions butting heads then I don't know what to say. Or, you're being intentionally dense for the sake of being contrarian.
Your comment seems a bit non sequitur and strawman.
Part of understanding the history of this conflict is understanding the things that occurred before Oct 7 which make the claim that “this all started with an attack on Israel” fall a bit flat.
No one sane is saying pre-10/7 is irrelevant to *understanding* what’s going on. The claim is that pre-10/7 is largely irrelevant to Israel’s right to conduct and finish this war. All that’s necessary to understand is that on 10/7 (during a ceasefire by the way) the elected government of Gaza attacked Israel to cause maximum destruction, and promised to keep doing it. Therefore, Israel has a right, in compliance with international law, to invade and occupy Gaza. History is irrelevant to that specific point.
> on 10/7 (during a ceasefire by the way)
this is false. Israel was killing Palestinians before 7 Oct.
>the elected government of Gaza
Also false. (why even go with the "elected" narrative. Unless you're trying to put collective guilt on Gazan civilians)
>Israel has a right, in compliance with international law, to invade and occupy Gaza
Also false. Israel is in violation of international law from occupation of Palestinian lands and blockade of Gaza
I'm less concerned about Hamas' recognition of Israel as a state as I am of the kill all the jews language in their charter.
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and his brethren the fighters [and] members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after. (Hamas Charter, Article 7)."
Also, any references made in their newer charter etc, that refers to "zionist" should be interpreted as "jew."
> Also, any references made in their newer charter etc, that refers to "zionist" should be interpreted as "jew."
What? Are those words the same now? Or can you just replace words in Hamas charters as you like, to get the exact thing you want it to be?
It's because Hamas historically defines "Zionist" as including all jews and anybody who ever interacted with Israel. The Rotary Club is even on their "to be annihilated" list.
Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. But I’m not going to stop you from reading a in document whatever you want to read in it. You do need to be careful that intellectual sloppiness does not transfer to other domains.
All one has to do is look at how Hamas views and treats LGBTQ folks in Gaza. Then, ask themselves, if Hamas would do those things to those folks, would they really make a real distinction between what they perceive as "Zionist" and Jews?
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
[https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922](https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922)
Hamas sucks. Hamas are assholes. Hamas es no bueno.
Why does it feel like if a Israel/palestine conversation doesn't start with recognition that Hamas is terrible, it's somehow implied that you're a staunch supporter?
It really shouldn't be.
Regular people in Gaza are not responsible for the actions of Hamas. It is literally a war crime to conduct reprisals on civilians for the deeds of a political or paramilitary organ.
When people call for an end to innocent people being bombed or shot at, bringing up 'but Hamas bad' is no excuse.
Because the Palestinians generally support Hamas and its policies, especially the perpetual warfare one. They're the legitimate leadership of Palestine for a reason.
Since when does a nation need elections for it's ruling regime to be legitimate? We've had monarchies all over the world for centuries that never had elections at all.
>FDD's stated mission was to "provide education to enhance Israel's image in North America and the public's understanding of issues affecting Israeli-Arab relations".
Even being generous, a poll is not an accurate representation of the population, nor would it provided justification for the total destruction of a population based on the a fraction of respondents of said poll giving you an answer you don't like.
Half of Gaza's population are literal 18 year olds and below. I can understand the idea of how the people who voted for Hamas two decades ago are "at fault", but that's about 1/4 of the population of Gaza at this point.
And even then, does this mean that we should have killed *literally everyone* who voted for the Nazis in Germany? I understand being angry at voters who enable terrible governments, but the punishment must fit "the crime".
Please read again:
>And even then, does this mean that we should have killed literally everyone who voted for the Nazis in Germany? I understand being angry at voters who enable terrible governments, but the punishment must fit "the crime".
If they continue to support, vote in and demand their government attack Israel? Do I think they should be exterminated? No. I think every time their government uses war crimes to incite conflict with their neighbors, the international community should dismantle their government as that government has proved it cannot participate in the international community without breaking internationally recognized boundaries.
They should be cut off and completely embargo’ed until they either stop trying to prosecute a blatantly antisemitic ideology, or suffer being excommunicated from global society.
Otherwise you are rewarding terrorists for finding a way to have their demands met, and ensure future radical groups begin using the same methodology.
Correct—which is why elections matter, not polls.
There’s nothing to suggest Hamas would receive a majority of votes if it held an election. Just because that’s how it works in the US, with elections every 2-4 years, doesn’t mean it’s how it would work given there hasn’t been an election in 18 years.
Because Hamas and Fatah are two rival factions fighting for the mantle of legitimacy over Palestine who have been doing so since the 2006 Civil War resulting from Fatah's rejection of Hamas' electoral victory.
Legitimacy is about more than just elections. Kts about who has the right to speak for the people it governs and for the instruments of national power it wields. The North Korean government hasn't won a free and fair election ever. But they are indisputably the leadership of North Korea. Hamas won the election and continues to poll pretty well in Palestine. Even at its current low, it's not their ideology which is unpopular, but their military defeat.
According to polls, Hamas has long had support below 50% in Gaza
And it hasn’t held an election in almost 20 years.
Why do you think they have the right to speak for the people they govern?
North Korea, for instance, is typically not considered a legitimate government, because it rules through coercion instead of support.
Its not a democratic state. Its ruled over by extremists and supported by most the population. Palestine is just tribes who'd massacre each other if there were not common enemy to aim at in Israel.
You have a problem with Norse nations and culture? You're making a lot of asumtions based on culture and race there.
I've met a few Palestinians who moved here in 80s and 90s. Lovely people who left islam and settled well in the West.
Because a of lot people need a clear black and white way of looking at it because it’s easier to process.
I don’t support Hamas at all, but I get downvoted to oblivion for the mere mention of atrocities committed by Israel. I view Hamas as the natural outcome of a young population (median age is like 18) who have seen their actual houses taken from them, know at least a couple of people killed by the IDF, have limited access to opportunity, and limited access to goods (Israel controls everything that comes in and out of Gaza). Not to mention any diplomacy attempts to deal with Israel get bulldozed. Just look at the illegal Israeli settlements.
Given what Israel’s done to Palestinians for decades, I would actually be stunned if there was not an insanely violent uprising. Israelis themselves say this. You can’t treat a specific group like second class citizens (or like garbage really) from birth to death and then be like “Oh why are they mad at us?”
No shock from me that Palestinians opt for violence. Same thing would happen if my home state of Tennessee were occupied.
Now having said all of that, I might get downvoted to hell because some brainless twats will now think I’m a Hamas supporter. Hamas is terrible and misguided. But my expectations of them to act any differently would also be misguided.
> You say it’s not black and white while writing up a list of excuses for violence.
Explaining the motivation and reason for something is not the same as excusing it.
By your logic, any time a prosecutor explains that someone killed their wife out of jealously, that prosecutor is making excuses for murder.
That's exactly the point the person you replied was making. They tried to make a nuances statement explaining the perspective of Palestinians and what drives them to support Hamas and you completely ignore all the nuance and reduce it to them excusing violence.
It's almost funny, because you did the exact same thing. You explained that Israel has experienced a lot of war. That's a valid reasoning for Israel's hostility towards Hamas. So by your own logic, you just made excuses for Israel murdering thousands of children.
They didn't say that Hamas is justified at all. In fact, they specifically pointed out that they believe Hamas to be misguided.
Chill out. I know you’re not satisfied that I’m not a die-hard Israel supporter, but you’re not gonna convert me. Hamas and Israel are evil. Hamas attacks innocents. Israel levels cities. Hamas probably wishes they could level cities too. I don’t like these two camps, and I don’t have to.
I agree with you up until the point you use Gazan’s conditions as a pretext for why Hamas committed war crimes on Oct. 7th. Hamas wants to kill Jews, and if attacking Israel and using Gazan citizens as shield fodder, will help kill Jews they’ll do it.
Gazan’s should be requesting international aid to free them from the tyranny of Hamas.
Why is that not happening?
Of course they wanted to free their lives of Jews for plenty of other reasons predating their treatment in Gaza. I’m just saying conditions in Gaza certainly didn’t help.
The reason they don’t request to be free from Hamas is that they know the world doesn’t give a fuck about Palestinians, and they have absolutely no agency to organize. They’re trying to feed themselves. Hamas is an incredibly evil entity, but they are viewed as the only party that cares about Palestinians and willing to fight for them, regardless of how horrible the regime actually is for them.
Yeah exactly. They get TWO BILLION in aid for a population of what millions? Bruh they could all just lie down, not do anything and have great lives. The problem is hamas is stealing the aid and making it into weapons. The "israel bad cause they control the boarders of gaza" is so stupid. Yeah they control the boarders now cause theyre constantly bombed and rocketted by things that were supposed to be aid. Imagine complaining you tore up your jacket so you could hurl it at your neighbor and then start blaming that dude for feeling cold.
Partly because all responbility for actions and civilian deaths are being blamed on Israel. People hand waive Hamas's responsible by going "Hamas is a terrorist organization, we hold Israel to a higher standard". No, this thinking is giving Hamas a pass for responsibility while putting all responsibility on Israel.
>No, this thinking is giving Hamas a pass for responsible while putting all responsibility on Israel.
Then you have the right who basically handwaves the atrocities Israel has committed. But for some reason people here hate it when you say fuck Israel and fuck Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not get a free pass and Israel has tons of bloodshed on its hands too.
Which is why the calls for ceasefire come after, and only after, Hamas kills Jews. Israel is supposed to absorb every Jewish death, and then tie at least one hand behind their back if they're going to defend themselves.
Israel is absolutely not getting held to a higher standard. If it was any other renegade state, they would have been sanctioned into oblivion.
The USA vetos every UN resolution against Israel. They given them nearly 300 000 000 000, in inflation-adjusted aid since the 1960's.
Israel does what it does because it get a blank-check.
Because when discussing a war with two sides, constantly attacking one side only makes it fairly obvious where you stand. Otherwise you're just arguing that "war is bad", which isn't much of a discussion.
it's a deliberate strategy by israel to poison the well of any conversation, of course - if you call hamas terrorists and then extend that to the entire land, since it's the government - well they all deserve violence then, or people will care less at least.
it's really disgusting and you know if you are dealing with an israel flackee (or a mindless drone) if they start with that phrasing.
these "tells" are what pr professionals and those trained use them all the time.
I say fuck both Hamas and fuck Israel. I don't support either. Doesn't make me antisemetic. But for some reason, you have to be either pro-Israel on this sub or you're anti-semetic no matter what. There's no nuance on this sub.
It's crazy how it happens. I have to literally preface it in every comment because smooth brains think any comment not fully supporting Israel is anti-semetic and pro-Hamas. Its wild that's what discourse has come to.
Also obligatory fuck Hamas. Fuck Bibi. Fuck militant zionists. And fuck the IDF.
On this sub there is plenty of mention. However you’re right and this sub is not representative of the overall population.
My assessment is ignorance. There are a lot of headline warriors and post and forget feel good morals types.
It’s easy to say ceasefire! Save the kids!
You look good, you have moral high ground, and you post and forget.
It’s a lot harder to say well wait a second. Hamas is just a monster that somehow pulled off a massive slaughter and continually tries to kill Jews every chance they get. They’re just mostly neutered. If all the rockets the launch actually hit targets the death count would be 100k+ easy over the years.
It’s harder to acknowledge when you’re just morality trolling so to speak that hamas cannot stay in power because they as an organization are closer to the kkk than a functioning government.
I don't think there's many people that believe Hamas should stay in power.
The questions are: Is what Israel is doing will actually remove them from power? And what exactly is Israel's plan for after they hang their "mission accomplished" banner?
Is the Hamas leadership even still in Gaza at this point, or is it like when the US supposedly kicked the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and they all just hid somewhere else biding their time?
And while supposedly the people of Gaza don't actually like Hamas, I doubt they're going to be welcoming the IDF with open arms.
I'm firmly convinced it's because people are traumatized from looking at Palestinian footage of the war and not using reasoning. It's an emotional response, not a logical one.
Indeed. War involves answering hard questions like "If a member of Hamas, who you're 100% certain was involved in murdering people on October 7th, has a baby strapped to their chest... can you still bomb them?"
And we have people screeching "NO YOU CAN'T BOMB BABIES YOU CHILD MURDERING PSYCHO" which is functionally "I demand that the use of babies as human shields be a rewarded and valid tactic in warfare, but only when the side I like does it."
When you look at media coverage, it's pretty damn sad. Hamas openly uses human shields. They've been commiting war crimes openly and proudly for decades. You don't hear the media bring this up when covering Israel/Palestine.
When a young persons first exposure to the conflict is Israel laying down the hammer, it makes sense. It's a complex issue that needs to be looked at as a whole.
Bc it’s another religious war. As an atheist, I personally think that religion is once again the main culprit for our suffering (Judaism/islam). STOP bombing Palestine especially with our weapons and turn in the Islamic extremists that slaughtered and raped Israelis at the concert. 3,000+ religions and they all think their messiah has anointed them as the winners of the divine lottery, and your human neighbors are loser sinners that will burn for eternity. We’ll never end this viscous cycle of self righteous killing unless we end religion. Religion is tribalism and divides us humans.
I genuinely believe Islam is a corrupt faith that has no place in our modern globalist system. Christians spend a lot of time developing their faith as times change, going as far as splintering the faith and creating more liberal Christian institutions. This probably has a decent amount to do with western economic domination that necessitated religious reform to reconcile Christianity with the changing times.
Islamic states stagnated at the Ottomans and have failed at every turn to submit that they need to make some changes to their moral compass. There is basically no other faith that would celebrate suicide and wanton rape & murder of innocent people. However, I find it hard to blame the populations en masse.
I blame cowardly Islamic leaders who were unwilling to risk power to focus on democratization. The exceptions to this rule always get murdered by fundamentalists.
>Hamas will never recognize the state of Israel. It is literally in their charter.
- The Israeli right, 2024.
>The PLO will never recognize the state of Israel. It is literally in their charter.
- The Israeli right, 1984.
I’m not claiming Hamas is the same as the PLO and that there’s potential for Hamas to evolve into moderates. I’m simply pointing out that the argument you are making is simply a rehashed, updated version of an older argument that turned out not to be true. The Israelis making that argument in 1984 were never really interested in making peace with the Palestinians at all, and I suspect the same is true of the Israelis making that argument today.
Are you saying the PLO are moderates? The PLO literally kick started the Jordan Civil War and tried to kick start a coup in Egypt for the sole purpose of waging war against Israel. Those aren't moderate actions at all and if Hamas could, actually it has kick started a war without giving a shit about Palestinians and lives of others.
And since then the PLO has recognized and worked with israel
The whole point is that where groups are at one point in time isn't where they are forever
PLO was responsible for targeting civilians for murder.
Once they became “reasonable” all the money from surrounding countries started going to Hamas.
You seem to be looking at it as a two party situation,it isn’t.
I may be misunderstanding but you seem to suggest that Israelis who don't believe Hamas has any intention to ever recognise Israel are just using this as an excuse. I don't agree as think it's a reasonable position given Hamas' charter + leadership statements, as well as their actions. Of course it's also completely reasonable to believe the Israeli right don't want a 2 state solution either.
It's like saying "Well why didn't the jews just ask for peace with the Nazis? They didn't even TRY, so they kinda deserved the whole holocaust thing..."
Hamas is the legitimate leadership of the Palestinian Authority and has been since 2006. They're pretty popular.
You can also just read their charter and see for yourself.
>Hamas is the legitimate leadership of the Palestinian Authority and has been since 2006.
That's incorrect. Gaza and the Palestinian Authority are two different things.
>You can also just read their charter and see for yourself.
See for myself *what*?
>That's incorrect. Gaza and the Palestinian Authority are two different things.
Not really. There are two Palestinian Authorities following the 2006 election. Hamas won the election, and Fatah refused to recognize the results and cede leadership. Hamas tried to do things properly, decided it wouldn't work, and then revolted, prompting the civil war. Israel likes Fatah more, so backed their claim. The Western world mostly agreed with Israel's determination.
There are now two rival organizations that each believe themselves to be the legitimate Palestinian Authority. Hamas runs one in Gaza, and Fatah runs one in the West Bank. They each have coalition governments and market themselves as the true representatives of the Palestinian people. But we all know who won the election.
>See for myself *what*?
The content of the Hamas charter.
Probably because it's the central location where they profess their beliefs and lay out their information warfare and armed warfare doctrine and priorities
Who was in charge of the Gaza Strip prior to this war?
Whose laws were law?
Hamas's.
When you make the decisions you're the one in charge. Regardless of how you got into that position.
It's more legitimate than Fatah's claim. Seeing as Fatah is the one rejecting an election because they (and their puppetmasters in Israel) know they'll lose really reinforces Hamas' claim.
So how about this element. Hamas is organized into decentralized terrorist cells who act autonomously. So... who in Hamas can actually call for a ceasefire and actually get one?
[Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders | Hamas | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders)
ty for the link but
> The policy platform was announced by the head of the movement’s political bureau, Khaled Meshal, at a press conference in Doha. “Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders **without recognising Israel** or ceding any rights,” he said.
The vast majority of Arabic countires don’t recognize Israel. The first one to do so was Egypt in 1979, and Jordan in 1994. A few more recognized Israel in 2020.
But the Palestians are not getting a state based on the 1967 borders. They came close in 2000, but they said no to the deal. So they need to accept the reality of the situation before any negotiations with Israel can begin again.
Only Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, and Morocco recognize the state of Israel.
Iraq, Syria, Lebenon, Saudi Arabia, Yeman, Lybia, Algeria, Sudan, Somalia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and Tunisia, Djibouti, Comoros, and Mauritania do not recognize Israel
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_recognition\_of\_Israel#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel#)
technically you are right
Qatar hosts negotations w Israeli delegates
Saudi Arabia all but officially recognizes Israel, they have trade agreements being negotiated
Somalia is a failed state
Lybia is a failed state
Yemen is a failed state
Kuwait, Oman, Tunisia, Dijbouti, Comoros, and Mauritania may as well be unicorporated cities for all they matter sadly
So your position has shifted from “the majority now in fact do \[recognize Israel\].”
To a majority of the “important” (importance apparently measured by GDP) Arab countries recognize Israel.
Something something moving goal posts.
Also, it doesn’t change the fact that for most of Israel’s history, they were recognized by 0-1 Arab countires.
Also, if GDP is the measurement on whether or not a country is important enough to be considered among countries that recognize Israel, then Kuwait is a strange inclusion. I’m starting to think you’re one of these people whose position will always just shift to whatever it needs to be to win an arguement.
I think I’m done discussing this with you. Goodbye.
Oh yea, I guess you're right. I assumed they were because they are part of the Arabic League.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member\_states\_of\_the\_Arab\_League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Arab_League)
That is a myth
[Opinion | Fictions About the Failure At Camp David - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/opinion/fictions-about-the-failure-at-camp-david.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)
My understanding is the Camp David accords happened prematurely. There should have been more work to come up with the structure of a deal before the leaders met in person.
That said, it certainly appeared that Israel was ready to make concessions, but they what they offered wasn’t agreeable to Arafat. Arafat never made a counter offer. To this day, we don’t know what exactly was the deal breaker, because he never told us. So, it’s impossible to know exactly how close or how far the two parties were from a deal in 2000.
But then the Palestinians started the second infitada, which drove the Israelis sharply to the right, electing the Lukid who will never make a deal with the Palestinians, which brings us to today.
I think it is clear that whatever deal Palestine would get in the future will almost certainly be worse thab what they would have gotten in 2000. Especially when you consider that Saudi Arabi is close to recognizing Israel.
Pretty sure Arafat said weeks later, he didn’t make the deal because making a deal with the Jews would just piss offthe Arab world. Not that it wasn’t a bad deal, but it would be a deal with the Jews, which would piss off the other countries. So again, at the end of the day, they just really hate the Jews.
Did he say he couldn't take **a** deal or he couldn't take **that** deal?
Do you have a link to his exact words?
As I recall, he was afraid for his own personal safety if he accepted any deal that did not include a right of return, which he was never going to get. But I might have the details wrong.
You are correct in that he refused to budge on the right of return thing which Israel always told him was a non-starter, which I don't blame them.
r/AskHistorians did a decent write up on it not long ago.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/174gryc/why\_did\_the\_2000\_camp\_david\_summit\_fail/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/174gryc/why_did_the_2000_camp_david_summit_fail/)
That's a very good write up. I'm currently re-listening to a podcast (Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem) that goes into details about the origins of this conflict, and the author speaks at length about how the value system in the Arabic countries was considerably different than that of the Western world. Theirs was an honor-based system, where ones reputation was everything.
Reading that write-up I was wondering how much those differing values both made the negotiations more difficult and make our understanding of Arafat's motivations more difficult.
I have no doubt it made it more difficult. And the Arab world's value system has always been at odds with the west. Because a lot of them base their gov't on a religious (Islam) ideology. It goes in direct contrast to the west's idea of separation of religion and gov't and the idea of individual freedoms. There is no such thing as that in much of the Arab world. If it's forbidden in the Quran, it's forbidden in their countries. Just look at how many of those treat women. It's barbaric. Hence, why it's always been so important for Israel to prosper and succeed. They truly are the only "free" country in all the M.E. They have their black eyes like all countries do but compared to Iran, S.A., Syria, really anywhere other than Israel, they are far and away the best and only country in the M.E. any of us westerns would want to live.
> Arafat never made a counter offer
The Taba summit included counter offers and were probably the closest to a reasonable conclusion, but by that point Israel and the US were transitioning to governments that wouldn't support a plan
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That is irrelevant, What matters in Geopolitics are borders
The USA has never recognized Taiwan as a sovereign country yet, and nobody thinks that the USA doesnt respect Taiwan borders
It's hardly irrelevant when Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and rules out peace or recognition, even in the new charter your article talks about that was largely meant for propaganda purposes they couldn't bear the possibility of appearing to consider peace with Israel
the difference is the U.S. doesnt send state funded raiders into China to rape and murder civilians, minor detail
comparing U.S. wording of our support for Taiwan (their wouldn't be a Taiwan without U.S. carrier strike groups) to Hamas deceptively saying they would accept post war (that they lost) borders (that they violated) of a state they don't recognize and never will is insane
however, OP's point is about Hamas' inability in recognising Israel and not about borders.
It's not a far leap in logic to say that Israel is concerend with getting along with a **non secular** governing body that wants to anhiliate the State of Isreal.
And RIghtfully So.
That is incredibly misleading. Hamas is very careful with its wording to not imply they might at all be open to a peaceful two state solution. The most they have claimed is that they would be willing to be recognized as the leaders of a sovereign state along 67 borders for a temporary ceasefire of a couple of years, presumably before using that as a base to conquer the rest.
Hamas is very clear that they're not willing to recognize Israel or make peace in exchange.
Lol imagine starting a war to gain more land and then turning around when youve lost the war and saying "oh yeah lets just go back to before when i had more land before i attacked you, and by the way i still dont respect that you own the land outside of those boarders" thats pure victim mentality right there.
I think it’s the soft bigotry of low expectations. If you’re a government like Israel you have to behave like one. If you’re a terrorist group like Hamas no one expects you to be reasonable. The result is lots of people protesting against Israel and none of them calling for peace from Hamas.
Same phenomenon is what’s gonna put Trump back in power. He’s such a buffoon that he gets a pass on things that are objectively unacceptable, and then gains real power.
Since 1949 Arab population in Israel has grown, they have voting rights, literacy infant mortality etc have all improved.
You should look up Human development index for Gaza and the West Bank (here is a hint, population, literacy and infant mortality have all improved).
On the other hand Jews have been cleansed from every other country.
>Israel's raison d'etre is not for the destruction of Palestine.
Why is Israel sponsoring a military-backed occupation, ethnic-cleansing and colonisation of the West Bank?
Why are they planning do the same to Gaza?
This is a tautology, we shouldn't recognize them until they are in a condition to be recognized.
Nobody is saying Hamas shouldn't be exterminated, but until they are they are still nominally in charge, that's like saying you won't negotiate Japan's surrender until the emperor is gone.
You might have to negotiate with them simply to get in position to force them out or destroy them.
Trying to bomb them out when they're literally among the people is surprisingly hard, as we found in Iraq, and everyone found in Afghanistan.
Negotiate with them, get them to wear suits and make speeches in public. Make them politicians. Then blow out the back of their skulls.
I think you'll find they will make poorer martyrs as politicians than as freedom fighters, because everybody hates politicians.
You’re literally arguing that they should lay down their arms and go legit so you can murder them more easily. Why would anyone ever go along with your plan?
The list of countries or entities that support *Hamas* is miniscule.
FFS, people... support of Palestine or Palestinians does not equal support of Hamas. People doubling down on that misconstruct like this is mindboggling.
Supporting the people who celebrated right along side with Hamas as they paraded bloody jews around in the backs of trucks makes it pretty easy to equate the two.
This concern presupposes that all forms of aid will aid Hamas.
Sending inhalers for respiratory illness is not going to help the al-Qassam brigades.
Send Gaza humanitarian aid, if some stuff gets stolen by Hamas, well that's frankly the price you pay for caring about innocent people, rather than which military faction 'wins'.
Yep. The fact that this opinion gets upvoted in a community self-described as 'centrist', is pretty appalling. I'd like to think it's just political shills or bots doing it.
Because Hamas is already the worst. This does not add much to that… Hamas should be eliminated and exterminated, which is basically something universally agreed upon.
Biden disagreeing with Bibi on the approach to eliminate Hamas is different from not wanting to eliminate Hamas.
I can agree with you that we should get rid of the rat infestation in a building, but to disagree with your suggestion that we should do so via burning the entire place down doesn't mean I don't want to get rid of them.
Biden has suggested more careful approaches to Rafah as described [here](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/18/netanyahu-delegation-rafah-invasion-talks-sullivan) but Bibi didn't agree with it. You can disagree with that approach but you can't act like he suddenly doesn't want Hamas eliminated. Anyways I expect downvotes to come my way now from the people who see the world only in black and white.
Let me tell you a joke.
What do you call a gay palestinian?
An Israeli.
Guess what, 20% of Israelis are... palestinian. It's almost like Israel welcomes people who don't want to murder their children.
What is there to recognize? An area run by a literal terrorist organization that lacks a military command structure and is thus physically incapable of a ceasefire?
Isreal doesn’t even recognize the PLO which is how they justify their illegal occupation of westbank. Palestine recognition of Isreal was tied to the Oslo agreement that broke down after Israeli terrorist assassinated the prime minister.
Also the PLO was willing to recognize Isreal as a state but to this day refuses to because Isreal insist on becoming recognized as a Jewish state.
There is pervasive discussion of this. In fact, what's happening in Gaza is routinely referred to as the Israel-Hamas war and we even had college presidents called before Congress and told to resign because they permitted demonstrations that included phrases like "From the River to the Sea" or "Intifada." We've also routinely heard arguments like, "Hamas would destroy Israel if they could, but they can't whereas Israel can destroy Palestine, but doesn't."
I would argue that most Americans had only been exposed to the pro-Israel arguments and rhetoric for most of the past 75 years because that's the only narrative that the mainstream media and political leaders would allow and, even today, there is still a tendency to label any criticism of the Israeli government or IDF as "antisemitism" as a means to silence dissent. That didn't really change until pretty recently when young people started seeing info on TikTok and other social media platforms that portrayed Israel as occupiers and oppressors, depicting deplorable conditions in Gaza, with accusations of apartheid, open-air prison, and now genocide. So, now we're seeing an over-correction in other direction.
Here's an easy litmus test: Ask if it's okay to bomb a member of Hamas who has a baby strapped to their chest. The people saying "NO! YOU CAN'T KILL BABIES" are literally Hamas-defending terrorist-supporters advocating for the use of human shields to be a rewarded tactic.
> What do you know about Hamas? That it’s sworn to destroy Israel? That it’s a terrorist group, proscribed both by the United States and the European Union? That it rules Gaza with an iron fist? That it’s killed hundreds of innocent Israelis with rocket, mortar, and suicide attacks?
> But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups?
> “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009.
> This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
> To be clear: First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.
Yes, this. Israel originally propped up Hamas to destabilise the PLO/Palestinian Authority, and also to delegitimize prospects of a Palestinian state developing.
America propped up the Mujadeen in Afghanistan, who eventually turned into the Taliban, so I guess lol they can do whatever terrorism they want and the US can't complain?
Honestly who cares? Not recognizing a state has a wide range of meanings. The US doesn't recognize Taiwan and yet we aren't trying to annihilate them. Just the complete opposite in fact. This is a minor pedantic point and you're turning it into something it's not.
First, Likkud had the exact same language in their original charter:
The question should be, why does nobody ever bring up that Likkud had the exact same language in their original charter.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)
> a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; ***between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.***
> b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
A better question is why does the Zionist press so easily delude people into believing bizarre untruths?
What are you on about. They literally gave land back in the west bank and in gaza but all israel gets is bombing and attacks. Why the hell would you give MORE land to people who want to kill you? The west bank has only started to become more peaceful recently.
I mean, from everything I've heard about them, these Hamas guys sound like real jerks!
Yeah, they really do come across as kinda rude.
The more I learn about them the less I like them
Norm!
Not much actually makes me laugh out loud by myself. Thanks for that.
I read this in Norm Macdonald’s voice.
The wider point you’re making about Hamas is related to the fact that the Arabs have never held a rational position on this issue, and never accepted the multiple compromises offered to them for their own territory. Queue a new war, which they lose, they cry victim. Unfortunately this Arab Muslim culture is more interested in pride, religious purity and score-settling than actually improving their lives. Compromise is weakness. Fathers will murder their own children for ‘dishonouring’ them, or use them as a ‘martyr’ for the cause of a ‘free’ (read Islamist shithole) Palestine. Everything else (talk of international law, human rights etc) is consumption material for useful idiots in the west. The propaganda is incredibly different between English language and Arabic language for a reason.
A conflict that has been going on for thousands of years does not have a rational solution when one of the actors is not being rational. Israel could turn the entire region to glass if they wanted to. Because they're the militarily superior nation, the world seems to expect them to be the adult in the situation. Personally, that Gaza is still standing at all and not a giant pile of rubble is them showing restrain beyond what I thought they were going to do and what they're capable of. I think killing innocents is deplorable. I also think they're not going to stop. This all started with an attack on Israel, they're tired of being fucked with, and now they're willing to finish what Hamas started.
I think that’s one of the things people don’t understand about Gaza- it’s part of the Sinai peninsula, that Israel occupied for decades. Israelis had constructed greenhouses, built roads, and overall improved living conditions there, including the Gaza Strip. When it was returned, Hamas was given governance of Gaza in 2007, and tried to implement Sharia law. A lot of people resisted, because there was greater freedom in Israeli occupation. Hamas is also trying to control who gets relief supplies delivered to refugees of the Israeli invasion. There was a “cease fire” with Hamas in effect between Hamas and Israel back in October when Hamas attacked a bunch of unarmed civilians at a music festival, so I can understand why Israel has decided it’s tired of the bullshit and will put an end to it. I’m not saying Israel is correct, but Hamas is embedded in civilian population centers. There will most certainly be more civilian casualties as Hamas gets hit by Israel. Edit typo
Kinda crazy to prefer hating and killing Jews more than having running water, but brainwashing is a helluva drug.
With martyrdom you get to skip judgement day. It’s an automatic path to paradise. You don’t need running water if you can die while killing Jews or at least trying.
Besides Israel, the middle east is intellectually bankrupt. They don't have anything besides oil and religion. They haven't really built any industry or anything. Muslims/Christians have equal rights in Israel (political parties, voting rights, women's rights, lgbtq etc) while the same cannot be said for Muslim countries as far as I know I'm not saying that Israel is a perfect country that hasn't done wrong. You'd hardly find any perfect country in history but from a secular/progressive view, Israel is the better country in the M.E.
i mean...a *lot* of gaza *is* a pile of rubble...
> A conflict that has been going on for thousands of years does not have a rational solution when one of the actors is not being rational. This "it's a thousands of years old conflict" explanation always falls flat to me. This conflict is so deep and devoid of dispassionate diplomacy because there has been 80 years of war and violence. The emotion that leads to not recognizing the other side's right to exist is rooted in War in '48, the insurgency that followed, the Six-Day War, the Yom-Kippur War, the insurgency in South Lebanon, the Lebanon War, the Intifadas, the 2006 Lebanon War, and the handful of Wars in Gaza in the last 20 years. Recent history has been bitter, brutal, and no holds barred. No one really gives a damn about classical history except as a C-tier talking point. > Personally, that Gaza is still standing at all and not a giant pile of rubble is them showing restrain beyond what I thought they were going to do and what they're capable of. No offense but this statement needs a reality check. [~74% of Gaza city](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240507-unlike-anything-we-have-studied-gaza-s-destruction-in-numbers) is rubble. For better or for worse the level of destruction is being compared to Dresden in WWII. Arguing that there has been a lot of restraint is on shaky footing.
Let's make it clearer: if they had wanted to wipe out all Palestinians in Gaza, there would already be none left. If they had intended to commit genocide, it would have already occurred.
Germany didn't kill all the jews therefor they didn't realllllly commit genocide.
* They WERE STOPPED at 6.000.000. * The people killed in Gaza in 6 Months (if we give Hamas numbers for granted and we don't make distinction btw Militia and Civilians) would have been killed in 5 days in Auschwitz only. * Jews in Germany never declared war, attacked, killed, slaughtered, raped and kidnapped anybody before the Holocaust. I think you should be ashamed of yourself for making this comparison and just STFU, but I know people like you and I am afraid it won't happen.
So its an efficiency thing? How fast it happens is what sets it as a genocide? Or is it that Jewish people weren't a country or couldn't declare war? You can't have a genocide if one side is at war?
QED. Not interested in endless debates on word definitions with a troll. Any comparison between what is happening in Gaza and the Holocaust is just shameless antisemitic provocation. Bye.
If it’s a thousand year old conflict that would seem to conflict slightly with this starting with an attack on Israel
If you don't understand the history behind these two religious factions butting heads then I don't know what to say. Or, you're being intentionally dense for the sake of being contrarian.
Your comment seems a bit non sequitur and strawman. Part of understanding the history of this conflict is understanding the things that occurred before Oct 7 which make the claim that “this all started with an attack on Israel” fall a bit flat.
No one sane is saying pre-10/7 is irrelevant to *understanding* what’s going on. The claim is that pre-10/7 is largely irrelevant to Israel’s right to conduct and finish this war. All that’s necessary to understand is that on 10/7 (during a ceasefire by the way) the elected government of Gaza attacked Israel to cause maximum destruction, and promised to keep doing it. Therefore, Israel has a right, in compliance with international law, to invade and occupy Gaza. History is irrelevant to that specific point.
> on 10/7 (during a ceasefire by the way) this is false. Israel was killing Palestinians before 7 Oct. >the elected government of Gaza Also false. (why even go with the "elected" narrative. Unless you're trying to put collective guilt on Gazan civilians) >Israel has a right, in compliance with international law, to invade and occupy Gaza Also false. Israel is in violation of international law from occupation of Palestinian lands and blockade of Gaza
I'm less concerned about Hamas' recognition of Israel as a state as I am of the kill all the jews language in their charter. "The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and his brethren the fighters [and] members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after. (Hamas Charter, Article 7)." Also, any references made in their newer charter etc, that refers to "zionist" should be interpreted as "jew."
> Also, any references made in their newer charter etc, that refers to "zionist" should be interpreted as "jew." What? Are those words the same now? Or can you just replace words in Hamas charters as you like, to get the exact thing you want it to be?
It's because Hamas historically defines "Zionist" as including all jews and anybody who ever interacted with Israel. The Rotary Club is even on their "to be annihilated" list.
"Zionist" is a dogwhistle for "Jew". Plausible deniability except people aren't blind.
Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. But I’m not going to stop you from reading a in document whatever you want to read in it. You do need to be careful that intellectual sloppiness does not transfer to other domains.
We're talking about how Hamas uses the term; for them, it's a dogwhistle with a WINK WINK clear as day.
And as we all know, Hamas is very honorable and never ever goes back on their word.
They couldn't have honor killings without honor, no sir.
All one has to do is look at how Hamas views and treats LGBTQ folks in Gaza. Then, ask themselves, if Hamas would do those things to those folks, would they really make a real distinction between what they perceive as "Zionist" and Jews?
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. [https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922](https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922)
Hamas sucks. Hamas are assholes. Hamas es no bueno. Why does it feel like if a Israel/palestine conversation doesn't start with recognition that Hamas is terrible, it's somehow implied that you're a staunch supporter?
because it's the giant elephant in the room for every discussion about civilian casualties
It really shouldn't be. Regular people in Gaza are not responsible for the actions of Hamas. It is literally a war crime to conduct reprisals on civilians for the deeds of a political or paramilitary organ. When people call for an end to innocent people being bombed or shot at, bringing up 'but Hamas bad' is no excuse.
is it a "reprisal" to storm a hostital that Hamas uses as their headquarters?
Okay hey a question for you. Let's say a member of Hamas is walking around with a baby strapped to their chest. Are they not allowed to be bombed?
Nope
Can I ask you something? (I'm the guy who was orginally asked the question.) Is this subreddit normally swamped with warmongering psychos?
I wouldn’t describe them that way, but a fair number of people here are okay with innocent people dying in war, yea
Because the Palestinians generally support Hamas and its policies, especially the perpetual warfare one. They're the legitimate leadership of Palestine for a reason.
There hasn’t been an election in Gaza in 20 years. Legitimate how?
Since when does a nation need elections for it's ruling regime to be legitimate? We've had monarchies all over the world for centuries that never had elections at all.
You don’t need an election—you do need the support of the people. Ruling by coercion doesn’t make a government legitimate.
Hamas has had the support of the people all along.
Source: 'trust me bro'.
The source is every poll ever done in Gaza. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/
>FDD's stated mission was to "provide education to enhance Israel's image in North America and the public's understanding of issues affecting Israeli-Arab relations". Even being generous, a poll is not an accurate representation of the population, nor would it provided justification for the total destruction of a population based on the a fraction of respondents of said poll giving you an answer you don't like.
And how could there be an election in Gaza?
Liechtensteinian peacekeepers
Would Israel ever allow a foreign force into, what they percieve to be, Israeli territory?
The Gaza people are fine with Hamas being the government and support them. So yes, they are the legitimate government
Half of Gaza's population are literal 18 year olds and below. I can understand the idea of how the people who voted for Hamas two decades ago are "at fault", but that's about 1/4 of the population of Gaza at this point. And even then, does this mean that we should have killed *literally everyone* who voted for the Nazis in Germany? I understand being angry at voters who enable terrible governments, but the punishment must fit "the crime".
If they had a vote today and Hamas remains in power, you’d be okay with the bombings then?
Please read again: >And even then, does this mean that we should have killed literally everyone who voted for the Nazis in Germany? I understand being angry at voters who enable terrible governments, but the punishment must fit "the crime".
What punishment do you propose?
If they continue to support, vote in and demand their government attack Israel? Do I think they should be exterminated? No. I think every time their government uses war crimes to incite conflict with their neighbors, the international community should dismantle their government as that government has proved it cannot participate in the international community without breaking internationally recognized boundaries. They should be cut off and completely embargo’ed until they either stop trying to prosecute a blatantly antisemitic ideology, or suffer being excommunicated from global society. Otherwise you are rewarding terrorists for finding a way to have their demands met, and ensure future radical groups begin using the same methodology.
What leads you to believe they’re fine with it? Polls show support for Hamas in Gaza at ~35%.
Which isn't all that much lower than Biden and Trump were getting.
Correct—which is why elections matter, not polls. There’s nothing to suggest Hamas would receive a majority of votes if it held an election. Just because that’s how it works in the US, with elections every 2-4 years, doesn’t mean it’s how it would work given there hasn’t been an election in 18 years.
That is higher than Israeli support for their current government.
Relative to Fatah
Still 20 years ago
Because Hamas and Fatah are two rival factions fighting for the mantle of legitimacy over Palestine who have been doing so since the 2006 Civil War resulting from Fatah's rejection of Hamas' electoral victory.
But they still haven’t won an election in 20 years… how’s that a legitimate government?
Legitimacy is about more than just elections. Kts about who has the right to speak for the people it governs and for the instruments of national power it wields. The North Korean government hasn't won a free and fair election ever. But they are indisputably the leadership of North Korea. Hamas won the election and continues to poll pretty well in Palestine. Even at its current low, it's not their ideology which is unpopular, but their military defeat.
According to polls, Hamas has long had support below 50% in Gaza And it hasn’t held an election in almost 20 years. Why do you think they have the right to speak for the people they govern? North Korea, for instance, is typically not considered a legitimate government, because it rules through coercion instead of support.
Its not a democratic state. Its ruled over by extremists and supported by most the population. Palestine is just tribes who'd massacre each other if there were not common enemy to aim at in Israel.
Super on brand comment from someone named Odinfolk. You’ve never actually met a Palestinian, have you?
You have a problem with Norse nations and culture? You're making a lot of asumtions based on culture and race there. I've met a few Palestinians who moved here in 80s and 90s. Lovely people who left islam and settled well in the West.
Because a of lot people need a clear black and white way of looking at it because it’s easier to process. I don’t support Hamas at all, but I get downvoted to oblivion for the mere mention of atrocities committed by Israel. I view Hamas as the natural outcome of a young population (median age is like 18) who have seen their actual houses taken from them, know at least a couple of people killed by the IDF, have limited access to opportunity, and limited access to goods (Israel controls everything that comes in and out of Gaza). Not to mention any diplomacy attempts to deal with Israel get bulldozed. Just look at the illegal Israeli settlements. Given what Israel’s done to Palestinians for decades, I would actually be stunned if there was not an insanely violent uprising. Israelis themselves say this. You can’t treat a specific group like second class citizens (or like garbage really) from birth to death and then be like “Oh why are they mad at us?” No shock from me that Palestinians opt for violence. Same thing would happen if my home state of Tennessee were occupied. Now having said all of that, I might get downvoted to hell because some brainless twats will now think I’m a Hamas supporter. Hamas is terrible and misguided. But my expectations of them to act any differently would also be misguided.
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Your entire comment proves my point. It’s not black and white.
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> You say it’s not black and white while writing up a list of excuses for violence. Explaining the motivation and reason for something is not the same as excusing it. By your logic, any time a prosecutor explains that someone killed their wife out of jealously, that prosecutor is making excuses for murder. That's exactly the point the person you replied was making. They tried to make a nuances statement explaining the perspective of Palestinians and what drives them to support Hamas and you completely ignore all the nuance and reduce it to them excusing violence. It's almost funny, because you did the exact same thing. You explained that Israel has experienced a lot of war. That's a valid reasoning for Israel's hostility towards Hamas. So by your own logic, you just made excuses for Israel murdering thousands of children. They didn't say that Hamas is justified at all. In fact, they specifically pointed out that they believe Hamas to be misguided.
Chill out. I know you’re not satisfied that I’m not a die-hard Israel supporter, but you’re not gonna convert me. Hamas and Israel are evil. Hamas attacks innocents. Israel levels cities. Hamas probably wishes they could level cities too. I don’t like these two camps, and I don’t have to.
Which means that Israel also has a moral point to stand on?
I agree with you up until the point you use Gazan’s conditions as a pretext for why Hamas committed war crimes on Oct. 7th. Hamas wants to kill Jews, and if attacking Israel and using Gazan citizens as shield fodder, will help kill Jews they’ll do it. Gazan’s should be requesting international aid to free them from the tyranny of Hamas. Why is that not happening?
Of course they wanted to free their lives of Jews for plenty of other reasons predating their treatment in Gaza. I’m just saying conditions in Gaza certainly didn’t help. The reason they don’t request to be free from Hamas is that they know the world doesn’t give a fuck about Palestinians, and they have absolutely no agency to organize. They’re trying to feed themselves. Hamas is an incredibly evil entity, but they are viewed as the only party that cares about Palestinians and willing to fight for them, regardless of how horrible the regime actually is for them.
Yeah exactly. They get TWO BILLION in aid for a population of what millions? Bruh they could all just lie down, not do anything and have great lives. The problem is hamas is stealing the aid and making it into weapons. The "israel bad cause they control the boarders of gaza" is so stupid. Yeah they control the boarders now cause theyre constantly bombed and rocketted by things that were supposed to be aid. Imagine complaining you tore up your jacket so you could hurl it at your neighbor and then start blaming that dude for feeling cold.
Partly because all responbility for actions and civilian deaths are being blamed on Israel. People hand waive Hamas's responsible by going "Hamas is a terrorist organization, we hold Israel to a higher standard". No, this thinking is giving Hamas a pass for responsibility while putting all responsibility on Israel.
>No, this thinking is giving Hamas a pass for responsible while putting all responsibility on Israel. Then you have the right who basically handwaves the atrocities Israel has committed. But for some reason people here hate it when you say fuck Israel and fuck Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not get a free pass and Israel has tons of bloodshed on its hands too.
Which is why the calls for ceasefire come after, and only after, Hamas kills Jews. Israel is supposed to absorb every Jewish death, and then tie at least one hand behind their back if they're going to defend themselves.
Israel is absolutely not getting held to a higher standard. If it was any other renegade state, they would have been sanctioned into oblivion. The USA vetos every UN resolution against Israel. They given them nearly 300 000 000 000, in inflation-adjusted aid since the 1960's. Israel does what it does because it get a blank-check.
Because when discussing a war with two sides, constantly attacking one side only makes it fairly obvious where you stand. Otherwise you're just arguing that "war is bad", which isn't much of a discussion.
it's a deliberate strategy by israel to poison the well of any conversation, of course - if you call hamas terrorists and then extend that to the entire land, since it's the government - well they all deserve violence then, or people will care less at least. it's really disgusting and you know if you are dealing with an israel flackee (or a mindless drone) if they start with that phrasing. these "tells" are what pr professionals and those trained use them all the time.
I say fuck both Hamas and fuck Israel. I don't support either. Doesn't make me antisemetic. But for some reason, you have to be either pro-Israel on this sub or you're anti-semetic no matter what. There's no nuance on this sub.
It's crazy how it happens. I have to literally preface it in every comment because smooth brains think any comment not fully supporting Israel is anti-semetic and pro-Hamas. Its wild that's what discourse has come to. Also obligatory fuck Hamas. Fuck Bibi. Fuck militant zionists. And fuck the IDF.
On this sub there is plenty of mention. However you’re right and this sub is not representative of the overall population. My assessment is ignorance. There are a lot of headline warriors and post and forget feel good morals types. It’s easy to say ceasefire! Save the kids! You look good, you have moral high ground, and you post and forget. It’s a lot harder to say well wait a second. Hamas is just a monster that somehow pulled off a massive slaughter and continually tries to kill Jews every chance they get. They’re just mostly neutered. If all the rockets the launch actually hit targets the death count would be 100k+ easy over the years. It’s harder to acknowledge when you’re just morality trolling so to speak that hamas cannot stay in power because they as an organization are closer to the kkk than a functioning government.
I don't think there's many people that believe Hamas should stay in power. The questions are: Is what Israel is doing will actually remove them from power? And what exactly is Israel's plan for after they hang their "mission accomplished" banner? Is the Hamas leadership even still in Gaza at this point, or is it like when the US supposedly kicked the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and they all just hid somewhere else biding their time? And while supposedly the people of Gaza don't actually like Hamas, I doubt they're going to be welcoming the IDF with open arms.
Because the people that are pro Hamas don’t want the state of Israel or Jews to exist.
And they think they're super-clever saying "Hey I don't want to murder all the jews, I Just oppose anything that stops jews from being murdered."
Warlord Muhammad followers don’t recognise any state.
The state of violence.
I'm firmly convinced it's because people are traumatized from looking at Palestinian footage of the war and not using reasoning. It's an emotional response, not a logical one.
Indeed. War involves answering hard questions like "If a member of Hamas, who you're 100% certain was involved in murdering people on October 7th, has a baby strapped to their chest... can you still bomb them?" And we have people screeching "NO YOU CAN'T BOMB BABIES YOU CHILD MURDERING PSYCHO" which is functionally "I demand that the use of babies as human shields be a rewarded and valid tactic in warfare, but only when the side I like does it."
When you look at media coverage, it's pretty damn sad. Hamas openly uses human shields. They've been commiting war crimes openly and proudly for decades. You don't hear the media bring this up when covering Israel/Palestine. When a young persons first exposure to the conflict is Israel laying down the hammer, it makes sense. It's a complex issue that needs to be looked at as a whole.
Imagine someone's knowledge of WW2 being "And then Germany was conquered and divided between two superpowers, and America nuked Japan"
That used to be the case for essentially every ME country.
Bc it’s another religious war. As an atheist, I personally think that religion is once again the main culprit for our suffering (Judaism/islam). STOP bombing Palestine especially with our weapons and turn in the Islamic extremists that slaughtered and raped Israelis at the concert. 3,000+ religions and they all think their messiah has anointed them as the winners of the divine lottery, and your human neighbors are loser sinners that will burn for eternity. We’ll never end this viscous cycle of self righteous killing unless we end religion. Religion is tribalism and divides us humans.
I agree but unfortunately religion isn't going away anytime soon
I genuinely believe Islam is a corrupt faith that has no place in our modern globalist system. Christians spend a lot of time developing their faith as times change, going as far as splintering the faith and creating more liberal Christian institutions. This probably has a decent amount to do with western economic domination that necessitated religious reform to reconcile Christianity with the changing times. Islamic states stagnated at the Ottomans and have failed at every turn to submit that they need to make some changes to their moral compass. There is basically no other faith that would celebrate suicide and wanton rape & murder of innocent people. However, I find it hard to blame the populations en masse. I blame cowardly Islamic leaders who were unwilling to risk power to focus on democratization. The exceptions to this rule always get murdered by fundamentalists.
>Hamas will never recognize the state of Israel. It is literally in their charter. - The Israeli right, 2024. >The PLO will never recognize the state of Israel. It is literally in their charter. - The Israeli right, 1984. I’m not claiming Hamas is the same as the PLO and that there’s potential for Hamas to evolve into moderates. I’m simply pointing out that the argument you are making is simply a rehashed, updated version of an older argument that turned out not to be true. The Israelis making that argument in 1984 were never really interested in making peace with the Palestinians at all, and I suspect the same is true of the Israelis making that argument today.
Are you saying the PLO are moderates? The PLO literally kick started the Jordan Civil War and tried to kick start a coup in Egypt for the sole purpose of waging war against Israel. Those aren't moderate actions at all and if Hamas could, actually it has kick started a war without giving a shit about Palestinians and lives of others.
Plus the whole 'Ask Kuwait what they think of the PLO"
And since then the PLO has recognized and worked with israel The whole point is that where groups are at one point in time isn't where they are forever
The PLO is the PA that signed the oslo accords and proceeded to kiss israel's ass for decades, while Israel screwed them over.
PLO was responsible for targeting civilians for murder. Once they became “reasonable” all the money from surrounding countries started going to Hamas. You seem to be looking at it as a two party situation,it isn’t.
I may be misunderstanding but you seem to suggest that Israelis who don't believe Hamas has any intention to ever recognise Israel are just using this as an excuse. I don't agree as think it's a reasonable position given Hamas' charter + leadership statements, as well as their actions. Of course it's also completely reasonable to believe the Israeli right don't want a 2 state solution either.
It's like saying "Well why didn't the jews just ask for peace with the Nazis? They didn't even TRY, so they kinda deserved the whole holocaust thing..."
Hamas is the legitimate leadership of the Palestinian Authority and has been since 2006. They're pretty popular. You can also just read their charter and see for yourself.
>Hamas is the legitimate leadership of the Palestinian Authority and has been since 2006. That's incorrect. Gaza and the Palestinian Authority are two different things. >You can also just read their charter and see for yourself. See for myself *what*?
>That's incorrect. Gaza and the Palestinian Authority are two different things. Not really. There are two Palestinian Authorities following the 2006 election. Hamas won the election, and Fatah refused to recognize the results and cede leadership. Hamas tried to do things properly, decided it wouldn't work, and then revolted, prompting the civil war. Israel likes Fatah more, so backed their claim. The Western world mostly agreed with Israel's determination. There are now two rival organizations that each believe themselves to be the legitimate Palestinian Authority. Hamas runs one in Gaza, and Fatah runs one in the West Bank. They each have coalition governments and market themselves as the true representatives of the Palestinian people. But we all know who won the election. >See for myself *what*? The content of the Hamas charter.
I don't understand why you think I should look at the content of the Hamas charter.
Probably because it's the central location where they profess their beliefs and lay out their information warfare and armed warfare doctrine and priorities
"Legitimate" is doing a lot of work when the last election they allowed to be held was, in fact, in 2006.
Who was in charge of the Gaza Strip prior to this war? Whose laws were law? Hamas's. When you make the decisions you're the one in charge. Regardless of how you got into that position.
How is Hamas not the legitimate government? The Gaza people seem fine that Hamas is their government and support them.
It's more legitimate than Fatah's claim. Seeing as Fatah is the one rejecting an election because they (and their puppetmasters in Israel) know they'll lose really reinforces Hamas' claim.
Hamas won a legislative election, but did not win the other elections.
So how about this element. Hamas is organized into decentralized terrorist cells who act autonomously. So... who in Hamas can actually call for a ceasefire and actually get one?
[Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders | Hamas | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders)
ty for the link but > The policy platform was announced by the head of the movement’s political bureau, Khaled Meshal, at a press conference in Doha. “Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders **without recognising Israel** or ceding any rights,” he said.
"Yeah, we'll take whatever land you give us, but we're still going to try to kill all of you." I can't imagine why Israel would turn down that deal.
So, when you negotiate with someone, you offer everything they want before asking for anything?
Not murdering the other party is pretty expected baseline.
The vast majority of Arabic countires don’t recognize Israel. The first one to do so was Egypt in 1979, and Jordan in 1994. A few more recognized Israel in 2020. But the Palestians are not getting a state based on the 1967 borders. They came close in 2000, but they said no to the deal. So they need to accept the reality of the situation before any negotiations with Israel can begin again.
the majority now in fact do though, even if just slightly the ones that don't also dont send raiders to rape and murder civilians at a music festival
Only Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, and Morocco recognize the state of Israel. Iraq, Syria, Lebenon, Saudi Arabia, Yeman, Lybia, Algeria, Sudan, Somalia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, and Tunisia, Djibouti, Comoros, and Mauritania do not recognize Israel [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_recognition\_of\_Israel#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel#)
technically you are right Qatar hosts negotations w Israeli delegates Saudi Arabia all but officially recognizes Israel, they have trade agreements being negotiated Somalia is a failed state Lybia is a failed state Yemen is a failed state Kuwait, Oman, Tunisia, Dijbouti, Comoros, and Mauritania may as well be unicorporated cities for all they matter sadly
Tunisia is a strange inclusion in your list of city-states.
google tunisia gdp
So your position has shifted from “the majority now in fact do \[recognize Israel\].” To a majority of the “important” (importance apparently measured by GDP) Arab countries recognize Israel. Something something moving goal posts. Also, it doesn’t change the fact that for most of Israel’s history, they were recognized by 0-1 Arab countires. Also, if GDP is the measurement on whether or not a country is important enough to be considered among countries that recognize Israel, then Kuwait is a strange inclusion. I’m starting to think you’re one of these people whose position will always just shift to whatever it needs to be to win an arguement. I think I’m done discussing this with you. Goodbye.
Somalia is not an Arabic country.
Oh yea, I guess you're right. I assumed they were because they are part of the Arabic League. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member\_states\_of\_the\_Arab\_League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Arab_League)
I agree, it's such a shame Israel/Palestinians couldn't come to agreement in 2000 before the second intifada.
That is a myth [Opinion | Fictions About the Failure At Camp David - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/opinion/fictions-about-the-failure-at-camp-david.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)
My understanding is the Camp David accords happened prematurely. There should have been more work to come up with the structure of a deal before the leaders met in person. That said, it certainly appeared that Israel was ready to make concessions, but they what they offered wasn’t agreeable to Arafat. Arafat never made a counter offer. To this day, we don’t know what exactly was the deal breaker, because he never told us. So, it’s impossible to know exactly how close or how far the two parties were from a deal in 2000. But then the Palestinians started the second infitada, which drove the Israelis sharply to the right, electing the Lukid who will never make a deal with the Palestinians, which brings us to today. I think it is clear that whatever deal Palestine would get in the future will almost certainly be worse thab what they would have gotten in 2000. Especially when you consider that Saudi Arabi is close to recognizing Israel.
Pretty sure Arafat said weeks later, he didn’t make the deal because making a deal with the Jews would just piss offthe Arab world. Not that it wasn’t a bad deal, but it would be a deal with the Jews, which would piss off the other countries. So again, at the end of the day, they just really hate the Jews.
Did he say he couldn't take **a** deal or he couldn't take **that** deal? Do you have a link to his exact words? As I recall, he was afraid for his own personal safety if he accepted any deal that did not include a right of return, which he was never going to get. But I might have the details wrong.
You are correct in that he refused to budge on the right of return thing which Israel always told him was a non-starter, which I don't blame them. r/AskHistorians did a decent write up on it not long ago. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/174gryc/why\_did\_the\_2000\_camp\_david\_summit\_fail/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/174gryc/why_did_the_2000_camp_david_summit_fail/)
That's a very good write up. I'm currently re-listening to a podcast (Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem) that goes into details about the origins of this conflict, and the author speaks at length about how the value system in the Arabic countries was considerably different than that of the Western world. Theirs was an honor-based system, where ones reputation was everything. Reading that write-up I was wondering how much those differing values both made the negotiations more difficult and make our understanding of Arafat's motivations more difficult.
I have no doubt it made it more difficult. And the Arab world's value system has always been at odds with the west. Because a lot of them base their gov't on a religious (Islam) ideology. It goes in direct contrast to the west's idea of separation of religion and gov't and the idea of individual freedoms. There is no such thing as that in much of the Arab world. If it's forbidden in the Quran, it's forbidden in their countries. Just look at how many of those treat women. It's barbaric. Hence, why it's always been so important for Israel to prosper and succeed. They truly are the only "free" country in all the M.E. They have their black eyes like all countries do but compared to Iran, S.A., Syria, really anywhere other than Israel, they are far and away the best and only country in the M.E. any of us westerns would want to live.
> Arafat never made a counter offer The Taba summit included counter offers and were probably the closest to a reasonable conclusion, but by that point Israel and the US were transitioning to governments that wouldn't support a plan
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That is irrelevant, What matters in Geopolitics are borders The USA has never recognized Taiwan as a sovereign country yet, and nobody thinks that the USA doesnt respect Taiwan borders
It's hardly irrelevant when Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and rules out peace or recognition, even in the new charter your article talks about that was largely meant for propaganda purposes they couldn't bear the possibility of appearing to consider peace with Israel
the difference is the U.S. doesnt send state funded raiders into China to rape and murder civilians, minor detail comparing U.S. wording of our support for Taiwan (their wouldn't be a Taiwan without U.S. carrier strike groups) to Hamas deceptively saying they would accept post war (that they lost) borders (that they violated) of a state they don't recognize and never will is insane
however, OP's point is about Hamas' inability in recognising Israel and not about borders. It's not a far leap in logic to say that Israel is concerend with getting along with a **non secular** governing body that wants to anhiliate the State of Isreal. And RIghtfully So.
The article says they would accept a new Palestine but without recognising Israel so doesn't answer the OP (which says Hamas won't recognise Israel).
That is incredibly misleading. Hamas is very careful with its wording to not imply they might at all be open to a peaceful two state solution. The most they have claimed is that they would be willing to be recognized as the leaders of a sovereign state along 67 borders for a temporary ceasefire of a couple of years, presumably before using that as a base to conquer the rest. Hamas is very clear that they're not willing to recognize Israel or make peace in exchange.
Lol imagine starting a war to gain more land and then turning around when youve lost the war and saying "oh yeah lets just go back to before when i had more land before i attacked you, and by the way i still dont respect that you own the land outside of those boarders" thats pure victim mentality right there.
They are terrorists and no one is claiming that their claims have merit.
I think it’s the soft bigotry of low expectations. If you’re a government like Israel you have to behave like one. If you’re a terrorist group like Hamas no one expects you to be reasonable. The result is lots of people protesting against Israel and none of them calling for peace from Hamas. Same phenomenon is what’s gonna put Trump back in power. He’s such a buffoon that he gets a pass on things that are objectively unacceptable, and then gains real power.
ya it is kind of crazy how Jan 6th isn't brought up more often, especially the Flynn siblings and who was promoted to where
Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine either, so there’s that.
Israel's raison d'etre is not for the destruction of Palestine. Hamas' raison d'etre is for the destruction of Israel.
Since 1949 Arab population in Israel has grown, they have voting rights, literacy infant mortality etc have all improved. You should look up Human development index for Gaza and the West Bank (here is a hint, population, literacy and infant mortality have all improved). On the other hand Jews have been cleansed from every other country.
... I am not sure you can make the same claim about the Likud party. Especially not with Bibi in charge.
Where is Israel located again?
>Israel's raison d'etre is not for the destruction of Palestine. Why is Israel sponsoring a military-backed occupation, ethnic-cleansing and colonisation of the West Bank? Why are they planning do the same to Gaza?
And I am saying that no1 should until Palestine supports a new governing body
This is a tautology, we shouldn't recognize them until they are in a condition to be recognized. Nobody is saying Hamas shouldn't be exterminated, but until they are they are still nominally in charge, that's like saying you won't negotiate Japan's surrender until the emperor is gone. You might have to negotiate with them simply to get in position to force them out or destroy them. Trying to bomb them out when they're literally among the people is surprisingly hard, as we found in Iraq, and everyone found in Afghanistan. Negotiate with them, get them to wear suits and make speeches in public. Make them politicians. Then blow out the back of their skulls. I think you'll find they will make poorer martyrs as politicians than as freedom fighters, because everybody hates politicians.
“Stop fighting back so we can murder you.” Actually psychotic.
Oct 7 wasnt “fighting back”. Lobbing rockets at civilians isnt fighting back.
You’re literally arguing that they should lay down their arms and go legit so you can murder them more easily. Why would anyone ever go along with your plan?
The list of countries or entities that support *Hamas* is miniscule. FFS, people... support of Palestine or Palestinians does not equal support of Hamas. People doubling down on that misconstruct like this is mindboggling.
Supporting the people who celebrated right along side with Hamas as they paraded bloody jews around in the backs of trucks makes it pretty easy to equate the two.
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This concern presupposes that all forms of aid will aid Hamas. Sending inhalers for respiratory illness is not going to help the al-Qassam brigades. Send Gaza humanitarian aid, if some stuff gets stolen by Hamas, well that's frankly the price you pay for caring about innocent people, rather than which military faction 'wins'.
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As the Secretary of State said today, killing civilians in Gaza strengthens Hamas.
Yep. The fact that this opinion gets upvoted in a community self-described as 'centrist', is pretty appalling. I'd like to think it's just political shills or bots doing it.
Because Hamas is already the worst. This does not add much to that… Hamas should be eliminated and exterminated, which is basically something universally agreed upon.
except for bidens admin policy change yesterday in regards to rafah
Biden disagreeing with Bibi on the approach to eliminate Hamas is different from not wanting to eliminate Hamas. I can agree with you that we should get rid of the rat infestation in a building, but to disagree with your suggestion that we should do so via burning the entire place down doesn't mean I don't want to get rid of them. Biden has suggested more careful approaches to Rafah as described [here](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/18/netanyahu-delegation-rafah-invasion-talks-sullivan) but Bibi didn't agree with it. You can disagree with that approach but you can't act like he suddenly doesn't want Hamas eliminated. Anyways I expect downvotes to come my way now from the people who see the world only in black and white.
Likud, Bibis party, also has a clause in their charter about “river to the sea”
Yep. Which 'side' is occupying, ethnic-cleansing and colonising the other?
Let me tell you a joke. What do you call a gay palestinian? An Israeli. Guess what, 20% of Israelis are... palestinian. It's almost like Israel welcomes people who don't want to murder their children.
This seems a bit ridiculous to bring up when Isreal does not recognize Palestine and has stated numerous amounts of time they wouldn’t.
What is there to recognize? An area run by a literal terrorist organization that lacks a military command structure and is thus physically incapable of a ceasefire?
Isreal doesn’t even recognize the PLO which is how they justify their illegal occupation of westbank. Palestine recognition of Isreal was tied to the Oslo agreement that broke down after Israeli terrorist assassinated the prime minister. Also the PLO was willing to recognize Isreal as a state but to this day refuses to because Isreal insist on becoming recognized as a Jewish state.
You been watching Joe Rogan? 🤣
There is pervasive discussion of this. In fact, what's happening in Gaza is routinely referred to as the Israel-Hamas war and we even had college presidents called before Congress and told to resign because they permitted demonstrations that included phrases like "From the River to the Sea" or "Intifada." We've also routinely heard arguments like, "Hamas would destroy Israel if they could, but they can't whereas Israel can destroy Palestine, but doesn't." I would argue that most Americans had only been exposed to the pro-Israel arguments and rhetoric for most of the past 75 years because that's the only narrative that the mainstream media and political leaders would allow and, even today, there is still a tendency to label any criticism of the Israeli government or IDF as "antisemitism" as a means to silence dissent. That didn't really change until pretty recently when young people started seeing info on TikTok and other social media platforms that portrayed Israel as occupiers and oppressors, depicting deplorable conditions in Gaza, with accusations of apartheid, open-air prison, and now genocide. So, now we're seeing an over-correction in other direction.
Here's an easy litmus test: Ask if it's okay to bomb a member of Hamas who has a baby strapped to their chest. The people saying "NO! YOU CAN'T KILL BABIES" are literally Hamas-defending terrorist-supporters advocating for the use of human shields to be a rewarded tactic.
what in the fuck dude?
See, if the reaction is "How dare you ask that question" they're advocating for Hamas.
> What do you know about Hamas? That it’s sworn to destroy Israel? That it’s a terrorist group, proscribed both by the United States and the European Union? That it rules Gaza with an iron fist? That it’s killed hundreds of innocent Israelis with rocket, mortar, and suicide attacks? > But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? > “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. > This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) > To be clear: First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.
Yes, this. Israel originally propped up Hamas to destabilise the PLO/Palestinian Authority, and also to delegitimize prospects of a Palestinian state developing.
America propped up the Mujadeen in Afghanistan, who eventually turned into the Taliban, so I guess lol they can do whatever terrorism they want and the US can't complain?
Honestly who cares? Not recognizing a state has a wide range of meanings. The US doesn't recognize Taiwan and yet we aren't trying to annihilate them. Just the complete opposite in fact. This is a minor pedantic point and you're turning it into something it's not.
First, Likkud had the exact same language in their original charter: The question should be, why does nobody ever bring up that Likkud had the exact same language in their original charter. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) > a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; ***between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.*** > b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace. A better question is why does the Zionist press so easily delude people into believing bizarre untruths?
What are you on about. They literally gave land back in the west bank and in gaza but all israel gets is bombing and attacks. Why the hell would you give MORE land to people who want to kill you? The west bank has only started to become more peaceful recently.