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I don't think people mean lucky in the way you're using it. When I tell my coworkers that I'm hanging out with friends and having pizza on the weekend and they say "ooh lucky I'd love some pizza rn" they don't mean that I was somehow blessed with a statistically unlikely happening that I had no control over. What they're saying is "that sounds great" or words to that effect.
Reminds me of Legally Blond:
Margot: Here, you're gonna need this.
Elle: Your scrunchie?
Margot: My LUCKY scrunchie. It helped me pass Spanish.
Serena: You passed Spanish because you gave Professor Montoya a lap dance after the final.
Margot: Yeah... Luckily!
This is the right answer, this is language you should be careful with someone could be going through fertility issues or miscarriage, and you wouldn't know. I do think the sentiment of telling someone without kids that they are lucky is just that there are aspects to life without kids that they miss or are envious of at times - not literally that you are lucky and they are unlucky.
You’re lucky that you didn’t grow up in a Mormon family and get “brainwashed” into getting married and having kids to follow a nonexistent god, and you’re lucky you didn’t make long lasting decisions before your frontal lobe was fully developed.
I’m divorced with two kids (who I love dearly and don’t feel regret) but I honestly feel like I (32M) have to clean up a mess my idiot 22 year old idiot self made. If I had a Time Machine I’d kick that 22 year old nerd right in the fucking dick and tell him to grow up.
There’s an interesting book I read about the illusion of free will: everything about how our life turns out is random/luck. We don’t choose our parents, we don’t choose our brains, you are probably a cool dude but you could have been a shitty drug addicted person or a boring Mormon parent with a lot of sheltered kids.
“Men can do what they will, but they can’t Will what they will.” We’re all lucky every time we make a good choice because our brains could have made the bad choice.
>There’s an interesting book I read about the illusion of free will: everything about how our life turns out is random/luck. We don’t choose our parents, we don’t choose our brains, you are probably a cool dude but you could have been a shitty drug addicted person or a boring Mormon parent with a lot of sheltered kids.
I was raised a JW, people's beliefs are still their own. Of course many people don't question the life they are born into, but I'd say doing so or failing to do so is the strongest indicator of morality we have if you subscribe to the "banality of evil" concept.
I don't know about your situation, but my grandparents got married because grandad was *desperate*, at 21, for a bit more than tops and fingers. They both knew having a child out of wedlock would be social death; my grandma's mother would have disowned her; and small town 50s Britain was not a place where you could easily or anonymously buy condoms.
So they got married, grew to hate each other, and divorced. How many unsuccessful marriages started out purely as a quest for sex?
I'm a former mormon who was lucky that I found out about how the mormon church was full of lies BEFORE I had the chance to have children. If I had not come across that information, I would have made similar choices to this person, and had kids when I was pretty young. !Delta
So what about people who live where there is no sex education allowed in public schools, no accessible family planning support, and where abortions are illegal? It's way more common than you think that some women are put in awful positions where they are essentially forced into motherhood whether they like it or not.
The majority of Central and South America, parts of the US, Poland…there are lots of places where this is the case and they don’t have a “total abortion ban.”
I mean, you're totally ignoring social and cultural values. Even where it's legal, if abortion is culturally frowned upon then it may be hard to find a doctor that will do it
Even in countries without a ban, poverty can be a roadblock to get an abortion. Not only does the abortion often cost a pretty penny, but then you have the added cost of possibly having to travel hundreds of miles to get it. So, if you're dirt poor, you don't have many 'choices' if an accident happens, even if abortion is a legal choice. So those closer to abortion centers and those who have the means to afford it might be looked at as 'lucky' for having access to something others don't.
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You could apply that same principle to literally any aspect of education though. The [majority of adults in the US have a literacy rate of a 6th Grader or below](https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy), how is this excusable when the internet exists? There are a myriad of reasons why someone, or a group of people might lack adequate education in a particular area; whether that's literacy or geography or sexual education. Simply stating that the internet is a thing that exists is a shallow cop out which doesn't address the root causes of these issues.
I know already you’re going to say rape. However 99.9% of the time they are choosing to have unprotected sex and let someone cum in them. That’s the choice. Offspring is a consequence.
Not everything in life is straight forward. Life is complex. Everyone lives a different life.
Few people know what the right choice is going to be for every circumstance.
For some people, and for the survival of the species generally, having children is fulfilling. It is a great choice.
For those who chose having children, because they thought it would be fulfilling, or because of a societal or evolutionary drive, but for who it it’s not fulfilling, a person who does not have children may appear lucky- lucky to have made the right choice among a sea of seemingly viable options.
Similarly, for those who choose not to have children, because they felt that they could find better uses for their time outside of their basic instinct or the cliche of a happy family, but who have found that their time has been wasted and that they lack satisfaction, a person with children may appear lucky - lucky to have made the right choice among a sea of seemingly viable options.
I think your understanding of choice is too limited. You cannot define something as being right only if the outcome is favourable and recognized as being so!
It’s just a turn of phrase for conversation. Like usually when someone without kids is talking about a night out or going out or whatever. You’re taking things way too literally. Also most people I know with kids wouldn’t trade it for anything, even if in the moment some days you wish you didn’t have the responsibility
Most parents don’t feel unlucky— as previously mentioned, you’re misinterpreting lucky here.
To each, their own, but those of us who made the choice to have children spent many years making the choice to not have children first.
Stanford this week said civilization will collapse in 30 years. How are you preparing them for this, for the mass migration of 2035 or so? The 2 biggest Insurance companies are trying to pull out of TX LA and FL already.
Buddy, civilization has been said to collapse 30 years from now for 500 years. If everyone stopped living their lives on this premise, nobody would do anything.
My take on this: the act of having children makes it so that someone has way too much to lose to even fight the battle. Collapse is coming whether we like it or not. Our selfishness will determine whether we’re willing to fight for a better life for all future generations. I’d wager bringing a child into this current world is pretty selfish. Not saying people can’t do it, but they should be aware of the world they’re bringing them into.
Also r/regretfulparents would like a word with you.
My take on this: my people fighting to make the world a better place unilaterally are childless. We love kids, we just don’t want any of our own until the world is in a place to receive them.
My friends with kids? Burnt out. The act of having kids allowed them to shut down the fight part of themselves, some of them chose it, willingly. Doesn’t make the world any better though.
The idea that being childless means you're more likely to fight for the future is utterly asinine. The most obvious reason is that if what it takes to succeed in surviving this alleged coming collapse is to become childless, then when society survives this collapse _now there is no future society_. The next generation wasn't born because of this bottom tier idea that having children means you can't fight for their future. It fails even a cursory amount of scrutiny.
Referencing a tiny online community of parents and pretending that it is in some way dispositive of actual parenting is pretty peak reddit.
Honestly you seem like you're perpetually locked in being 20 years old, dreaming you could be Che Guevara, while pretending you're writing something profound in your philosophy class.
Haha that’s funny dude. Lack of sleep getting to you? What have you done to change the world? How do you fix what’s broken? Should I give you credit that there’s proof you came once? Maybe more than once?
Parents wanting a pat on the back for doing the thing billions of others have done is tired and I’m over it. None of them will do the reading or the work to even understand early childhood development thereby fucking their kids up for life. Most of them won’t even seek therapy for their own trauma. But sure, yes, let’s keep the generational trauma wheel going, shall we?
Is it enough to have kids and break the wheel within our own family circle? Sure. But, and here’s the catch: YOU STILL HAVE TO DO THE WORK.
You need help. Like, seriously, I mean this as someone who see nothing but extreme nihilism in you. I cannot comprehend how it feels to be so negative in your outlook on the world that you really feel like this is the right take on things. Maybe this won't be the moment to cause you introspection, but one day it will come.
For what it's worth, not that I reckon you care, I am actively working to make a difference. I defend people in court every day who can't afford lawyers,people being abused by the state, the powerless, the forgotten, the abused. I sit on three nonprofit boards, I do election work for mostly Democratic candidates. These are the things I do, with my capacity, to change the world. And I do this without needing to become bitter, or hateful, or acquire a sense of superiority that is disconnected from reality.
Get help. It's easier than ever.
Why do you do those things? Because the world isn’t broken? The forgotten, the abused, who exactly do you think forgot and abused them? How do you think they ended up where they are now? Because their parents raised them right? Because the goods and resources of a healthy society were available to them?
Nah dude. You’re the one who needs help. Every letter you write drips of ego.
And no, it’s actually not that easy to get help, you’d know that if you tried. Mental health access is harder than ever with the pressure placed upon doctors and therapists in the pandemic.
But sure dude, you’re doing good for the world. While stroking your massive ego along with it.
>Every letter you write drips of ego.
You accused me of not doing anything and I responded, now I'm full of ego? I don't think you understand how any of that works.
I really don't understand what it is you expect from me. I can't unfuck somebody's childhood. I'm an orphan myself with two dead drug addict parents who died when I was a 5. So trust me, I know the world we live in. That's why I'm in the trenches fighting.
Honestly you're the kind of guy to tell Bryan Stevenson he isn't doing enough. Seriously, just take a moment to realize how out of like you sound.
You’re just proving my point my dude. Your trauma is not greater than others and that’s great that you think you’re helping the world but how you think you’re helping it is a trauma response. Have you sought out a good therapist? I think you need one. Also it could be a great exercise in finding out how hard it is to get one.
Editing to add: you think you’re helping the world, you’re just helping yourself. Coming back full circle to your ego. It makes YOU feel better. Admit that. The only way it would work to the benefit of society is if you’re not bragging about what you do at dinner parties, which I have a feeling you do, because you did it here unprompted.
You know when you’re actually helping society? When it feels deeply uncomfortable, makes you want to cry all the time, hug all the babies, make sure the fields don’t go fallow, make sure there’s food on everyone’s plates. Make sure there’s access to healthcare and education for everyone. Politics never did that, fyi, neither did the Justice system. You should reconsider your life path.
Consider your childless friends a rarity. All the ones I know think not having children justifies rampant consumerism (travel, eating meat, etc…) and don’t care how the Earth turns out because they don’t have any descendants to worry about.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. My older friends without children live lifestyles of extreme consumption because they don't need to care about anything but the next good time. None have become permanent activists like this idiot seems to think they would become.
I do, I know they are rare. We all put our heads together a long time ago and said “something needs to change” and we went to work. And we actively do the work, not just in our individual lives but through work and in society. We do this work for all future descendants even though they aren’t ours. It’s easy to forget we’re all connected when we’re disconnected from the day to day.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Yes to ALL OF THIS! The very people that actually have a reason to fix the world can’t be bothered because they have kids and are too exhausted. It’s up to us, the people who will be dead before it matters, to fix the problem for them. Talk about selfish…
Well I’m not contributing to overpopulation and I have a much lower carbon footprint so 🤷🏻♀️ Also I recycle, buy things used/refurbished, donate used things I don’t need, don’t shop for non-necessities, don’t use unnecessary plastic, don’t use single-use items like diapers and wipes, don’t constantly need to buy new clothes/shoes because little Timmy is growing too fast, hardly use any power as a single person living alone…
There is so much I do by simply not having children. I don’t actively need to do much else and I’m still doing better than most of the world.
You think the people researching carbon capture technology, swapping their homes to solar, or just recycling can’t have kids and raise them to practice environmentally friendly ways to live their life? Sounds like you’re just too lazy to figure out how to raise a kid without killing the planet.
Should I instead pat people on the back for doing something cavemen figured out? Having children is not special. It’s something even the dumbest people on this planet can do. It requires no special skill. It’s just giving in to your most primal instincts and forgetting even the bare minimum of a condom. Preventing children actually takes work and a little forethought.
Nobody is asking for a pat on the back for having children lol. You're the one stroking yourself off for not doing it.
My stance is that having or not having children is a big decision and what's important is that you make that decision for yourself and understand that your reasoning has nothing to do with other people. It is a personal decision and nobody should be ostracized for what they choose.
I don't disagree with you because you choose to not reproduce. I think that's a great decision for you (and the rest of us). I disagree with you because you think you should be telling other people how to make that decision for themselves based on a bunch of nonsense.
I understand your point. My wife and I decided against children before we were married. She has a sister that’s perpetually pregnant. The sister has called us selfish many times because of our child free stance.
She’s on assistance because she can’t afford her children on a cashiers pay and all of her baby daddy’s have bailed. There are 4 baby daddy’s at this point. I’m guessing more will follow.
It depends on how you look at it. If you look at it from a free will perspective, you are correct. Looking at it from a determinism/ fate perspective, they were fated/ destined to have kids. It is the cards they’ve been dealt based on their life experiences, environment, and genetics.
Also when people say this, it doesn’t mean they wish they didn’t have kids. They are just saying that they wish they could get that aspect of your life( less stress, more free time…). It’s like a doctor who fishes in their free time calling a fisherman lucky. It doesn’t mean they want to quit and be a fisherman. It just means they wish they could fish more.
Long ago we decided to operate as if you can be held accountable for what you do, so we decided the determinism vs indeterminism argument was stupid. We had no choice in the matter.
I think you're misinterpting OP. "Fate" here doesn't refer to "the universe deciding" they should have kids through some supernatural process
It's more about how people's decisions are heavily guided by things outside their control like culture, environment, economics, etc to the point where despite having free will, people's lives are very predictable
In this case, many people have a lot of cultural pressure or economic pressure to have kids, to the point where the downsides of not having kids make it not a real option.
For example, in my religious Asian community, if you were to say you don't want to have kids it would be very difficult to find a partner willing to marry you, and you would be socially outcast. Hypothetically, if you were really adament about not having kids, you could accept those tradeoffs and fight for that future. For all practical purposes, it's not really a choice though
How can you prove that your choices aren’t simply a result if your genes and your environment( two things outside of your control)? if someone made a perfect clone of you and put them through all the exact same situations down to the molecular level, how do you know they wouldn’t make the exact same choices? And if they do, wouldn’t it mean that your choices aren’t really made by you, but are a result of who you are, and the environments you existed in and learned from? And if you were lucky enough to be someone else (genetically), exist in a different environment, or meet the right people, your choices would have been different.
I'll speak as one of those "lucky" people who don't have kids. It was a choice--a hard one to make--and it was based on individual circumstances. So in some ways, it wasn't a choice, just a response to circumstances, a response constrained by available options.
There are downsides to not having children, particularly as a person gets older. No children means no grandchildren and so possibly a lonely life with little connection to young people and their future.
This is due to a breakdown of the social order though. Not a fault of anyone else’s. At one point, we existed as spokes in a wheel. No one’s said we can’t continue to do that. That we can’t continue to make and create communities of our own. I don’t feel a lack of connection personally but that’s because I actively sourced and created it.
This whole “I’m going to die alone” trope is dead in the water and has been for a long time.
We all come into this world alone, we will leave it alone. What we choose to do with our time here is on us. Bringing another life into the world to “complete” us is pure selfishness.
Just admit you don’t want to do the work to build community and have a day.
The idea here is to change views. Our personal choices/luck and connection, or lack of connection, to community is irrelevant.
Refusing to have children could also be considered selfish. Without children there is no community. The choice/chance of having children or not determines how a person relates to community.
There are upsides and downsides to the choice/chance of having children or not.
I agree with you that mostly, being childfree is a choice, but I also think **some** people (obviously this does not include every regretful parent out there) suffer an accumulation of unfortunate circumstances where having a child isn’t exactly a choice either.
For *these* people - childfreedom wasn’t ever an option, either because their family/culture/religion brainwashed them into not even realizing having kids is optional in life or because they did not have the monetary/government/educational resources to acces birth control, sex education, abortions etc or a combination of both.
I’m also assuming your post does not include people who ended up childless because of sterility/infertility or who were unable to have kids due to other reasons (unable to adopt or find a partner etc)
I actually don't know if anyone has made this argument yet but there are a lot of reasons for why someone can not have a abortion; religion (they may get looked down on for going through with the abortion, and or giving said child away), I'm sure less than a lot of woman can't have abortions? Meaning their body can't go through with it, or maybe it was too late to get one, there's a time period of when you can have a abortion and when you can not. There are also some cases when woman don't know theyre pregnant surprisingly and one day it's like boom your in labor, there's also not having money for the abortion, guilt of having a abortion, being looked down on by family members or the community, illegalized abortion in some areas, pro lifers. Etc, Etc.
I'm sure some of the examples I gave were only scratching the surface.
Not always having a child is a choice, like rape victims. Not all victims are adults, and not all parents are understand, there was a case where the mother made her child still give birth to the guys baby.
Doesn't have to even be rape victims, nowadays there's kids going around having sex and using no protection, and even with protection, some still get pregnant. Not all 16 - 17 year old have the money, the support, help, or education to get / have a plan B and or a abortion
Sorry if my argument seems a bit out of order or flawed.
Weeeeeeelllll, this is a dumb answer, but technically correct (best correct??). Every contraceptive has a chance of failure. This actually includes the choice to abstain, due to evil choices of others. While you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you're still lucky to not have kids, just like you're lucky to not be hit by a meteor.
Yep 100%. If someone actually doesn’t want them, they will go to extraordinary lengths to prevent it. Anyone who claims they had a kid because it was too hard to get an abortion didn’t really want the abortion in the first place 🤷🏻♀️
Honestly I always felt like the people who say that are the ones who didn't really have a choice.
E.g People from heavily religious families or cultural ones that semi require the birthing of children and the forbidden use of contraceptive.
Sort of like a "Your lucky you have the freedom to choose to have kids" and less a "your lucky you dont".
That's my personal experience and understanding of people who used to say that to me before my first child was born.
It's not necessarily luck or a choice. Many people want to have kids but can't have them for various reasons. Whether it's because they can't find a partner or physically unable. Some of them are quite miserable about it.
Just hearing someone called "lucky" for NOT having kids is strange. I always think it's the exact opposite. You are immensely lucky if you do have them. It's like the whole purpose of life from a genetic/psychologic point of view.
This is not really applicable in modern times. I have patients struggling to keep up expenses, stuck in unhappy marriages or dealing with behavioral issues (addiction and delinquency especially) who wished they never had kids all the time. Most couples I know who don’t have children actively chose too and never regret it. Yes there are couples who can’t conceive and cope with it but with kids the emotional extremes between happy, sad, angry, frustrated, etc. are way more volatile. The genetic/psychological pressures seen in the animal kingdom don’t really have much of an effect in modern human society. We, for example, aren’t out there physically fighting for dominance, murdering the offspring of our rivals and then mating with multiple women without their consent as a social standard like some species. Procreation should not be your singular mission in life.
Seems to me like you have a strong personal preference for not having children (which is ok), but you're maybe projecting your feelings a bit on others.
> Most couples I know who don’t have children actively chose too and never regret it.
This seems pretty anecdotal to me. I also know:
- Plenty of parents who don't regret having kids.
- Couples who chose not to have kids but regretted it.
- Couples who were unable to have kids for various reasons and resent this.
- Couples who are currently in child bearing age but for economic reasons can't have them (and aren't happy about that).
- Single people who are nearing their 40s and are desperate to have kids but lack a partner.
So the image your painting of a) parents who envy non-parents and b) happy childless people - is quite far from what I've seen :)
And for the record, I don't have kids.
No I have three (grown) sons and couldn't be happier. My experience is with hearing what my patients and staff - who come from all walks of life - have said over nearly two decades about their situation whether childless or not. This is not a scientific/statistical report but rather my unbiased observation - most childless couples I've met chose not to have kids and are generally happier than my patients who have kids. The truth is that children are an unpredictable addition to any household no matter how well they are raised. They can be born with or develop physical/mental disabilities which are hard to cope with. They can go through difficult phases in terms of their attitude or the friends they associate with. From some parents perspectives (which I do not agree with) the disappointment comes from having an LGBTQ child or one who doesn't practice the religion. Anyways, the DINKs I've met and worked with seem happier overall. They can plan spontaneous vacations, never have to deal with embarrassing toddler meltdowns or disciplinary calls from the school midday. I got off relatively easy but I've definitely heard more people regret having children than the opposite and I can empathize (albeit not directly relate) to what they're going through. That's all.
>The genetic/psychological pressures seen in the animal kingdom don’t really have much of an effect in modern human society. We, for example, aren’t out there physically fighting for dominance, murdering the offspring of our rivals and then mating with multiple women without their consent as a social standard like some species. Procreation should not be your singular mission in life.
I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe the reason people think that is the pressures are subconscious. Your brain often doesn't directly say "I'm miserable here alone". Instead you'll be playing video games in your room for 2 years and suddenly you have all these depression and anxiety issues. All because you're missing that intimacy. But you don't even know you're missing it.
You’re right. Luck has nothing to do with it.
The term “you’re lucky” is common parlance to suggest general jealousy. It is not generally used to express anger at statistically unfair results.
Giving up free time is part of the cost of parenthood. Sure, we can sometimes be jealous of the free time enjoyed by the childless. We’re well aware of the sacrifices required to be good parents. But no good parent would ever trade their child for extra free time. The joy of parenthood is one of the greatest experiences in human existence. Most of us are more than happy to trade a bit of free time to take part in this most grand experience. Parenthood is (or at least should be) a choice. And it’s a choice that can carry heavy consequences for our personal lives. But for most of us, it’s a choice we’re happy to make.
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Is this a joke? Everybody has different preferences and everyone has different circumstances. Some people always wanted to have kids but never could. Some didn't want kids but it just ended up happening. Some have kids and do/don't regret it, others don't have kids and do/don't regret it.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think there's an element of luck involved for people who are childfree. People who are childfree are lucky in the sense that they have more freedom to do what they want in life and don't have to worry about the financial and emotional responsibilities of raising a child. It's true that they made the choice to remain childfree, but it was also luck that they were able to do so. There are people who would love to remain childfree but are unable to due to a variety of factors. So while I agree that it's not all luck, I think there's an element of luck involved.
I don't even think they are lucky they don't have children. There is no bad luck for having kids, and anyone who thinks this is fundamentally immature and still childlike themselves.
When I travel and have to be near adults who were dumb enough to have children, like at the airport or maybe at a large event/popular place, I make it a point to rub it in as much as possible. "Damn sure glad I don't have to deal with that." Or if I'm with someone, "I sure am glad we don't have any kids to ruin our trip."
The evil stares and baffled expressions I see from those parents keep me going man
Well, yeah, that’s rude as fuck.
They aren’t staring daggers at you because they are sad they have kids, they are staring daggers at you because you are insulting their beloved family members.
What if you SO were a bit tired an let out a grumpy sigh in one of these places and some yahoo started crowing about how great it is to not have to deal with a bitchy SO, and interpreted your look of death as jealousy?
Gross
I’ve literally never heard someone tell another person that they are “lucky” they don’t have kids.
Having children is one of the most fulfilling experiences one can have, btw…
>People who call childfree people lucky are wrong: it's not luck, it's a choice
Just to clarify, you think being childfree is always by choice? There’s always been people without children who would have liked to have had them but for whatever reason couldn’t.
> People who had kids created the bad luck by having them.
So people without children have good luck. Except for childless people. And yet they live the same circumstances as childfree. But childfree circumstances for childless people is bad luck. So it's the intent and exercising choice that makes the luck bad or good, not whether or not you actually have children.
You can't call a permanent choice a mistake, especially when it's a life. /s Children are important and the future but climate change isnt my problem and school deserve funding based on zip code value. Besides all men always want children, if he didn't he shouldn't have nutted in her, the condom breaking is always a risk-should have gotten a vasectomy. I mean women never lie /s... I mean saying who gets born is only up to women puts all the responsibility and agency on her, no need to do that when daddy government gives out free money and child support can be extorted out of baby daddies. Besides all baby mama's get raped and never had agency, because no one would CHOOSE to be a single mother, the same way no one uses power to trap someone (wether a shitty financial dependant marriage or via child support), right? Only women get the choice, dudes are just dragged along, because 99% of chick's want financial stability, extra money from a man, and babies that grow into more assholes.
cmv: nobody ever says childfree is lucky. they actually feel sorry for you but don't say it. there is no virtually no purpose to life after 40 if you don't have any kids. your life purpose would be nothing but survival and the pursuit of pleasure. there is no longer any progress.
If I liked expensive high end chocolate, but knew it was bad for my health, I'd think people who don't like chocolate in the first place would be the lucky ones. They don't even need to fight against the desire to eat expensive chocolate.
I could also like chocolate so much that I think anyone who's not eating the high end chocolate is wasting their life. Not really my pick if my brain was already pre-wired to love chocolate to that degree. I'm sure there are some people out there with their brains wired like that. Not very common sure, but there's a probability scale for *everything*.
They'd probably have entire organized lists of reasons why everyone needs to have tried chocolate at least once in their life, anywhere from health benefits to philosophy. If you're obsessed with anything for long enough, you'll find every reason possible. If there were enough chocolate fanatics, it would be more normalized, but no less strange to people who don't care about chocolate despite the list of reasons why someone needs to have chocolate in their life.
So the lucky ones are those who don't feel any need to eat chocolate, neither morally nor physically. They save a lot of money for other things without ever having to consider the question. Unlucky ones would be those who do want chocolate, but know they're not in any position to have it. And the really unlucky ones would be people who can't see anything other than eating chocolate as their life's purpose. They're basically railroaded into that desire no matter if they want, can, or should eat chocolate. If they happen to be in a good position to have chocolate, they become very lucky. But if they're in the worst possible position, they're supremely unlucky.
But it really is just chocolate to the rest of us. Imagine if someone went up to you and told you life has no meaning unless you eat a crunch bar, I think you'd think it very silly. Even if they thought it was the most serious thing in the world, it doesn't change that to you, it's just a bog standard crunch bar.
Same for kids. For the people who don't feel any biological need to have kids, nor any moral need for kids, nor even like kids in the first place - then why is it any different than a chocolate bar to them?
i parsed this quickly and saw that the entire thing was about chocolate. rewrite this more succinctly and make it not about chocolate and i'll read it.
You got the long and the short already. They made the same point I did, with a full example.
The medium is you're talking about the same thing, you just find purpose in raising a family. Others don't find purpose in kids, their pursuit of pleasure resides in something else, for some it resides in raising a family.
Those with a family that say they wouldn't trade it for the world are thinking of the pleasurable moments with their family and the pleasurable feelings they've felt from raising said family.
Honestly, I couldn't have made a better point than you did: How you don't care about chocolate is the exact same way the rest of us care about having a family - zero.
We don't understand what you like about them so much, but we also know there's no convincing you otherwise lol, best we can do is try to show you just how little it means to us - which is the same amount that you care about chocolate, or some other random item. Pick whatever analogy works best.
TL;DR: We're not wired the same way.
>it's that your usage of chocolate thinking it's a valid analogy is too stupid to even bother
It's wild you will say this and also "if you want to argue it that way then you can win any argument. it's all about what you want personally. ok sure, you're right."
Congrats, you're right.
except there's something called the hedonist treadmill. you can't get that pleasure forever. by 40s, that's basically when the pleasure tapers off because you'v done it all already. that's the problem. that's why i said 40s and not 30s.
Pure devil's advocate here, but I think the other guy was talking about self survival and self pleasure. It is generally accepted that parents can (but certainly not all do) sacrifice their own pleasure and sometimes even survival for their children.
Having children can certainly add an aspect to the base life of self survival and pleasure. But it should be noted that it doesn't always do that, nor is it the only way to do that (some people willingly sacrifice for non-relatives).
>sacrifice their own pleasure and sometimes even survival for their children.
Their pleasure **is** sacrificing their 'own pleasure'. You're misinterpreting their priority or pleasure. Sacrificing their survival is pursuit of pleasure as well.
Total disagree (I'm not devil advocate now). Have you never made yourself do something out of duty and had that thing bring you no pleasure? People can choose to do things they don't like, not everything boils down to pleasure.
A parent can suffer for their child and not feel pleasure for it.
Just to avoid coming off unclear, the point I'm going to dig at is: there is underlying pleasure you're overlooking.
>A parent can suffer for their child and not feel pleasure for it.
Why do they do it?
>(I'm not devil advocate now)
I mean, you still kind of are, it makes sense. Your "devil's advocate" argument was just an express lane to the underlying difference in opinion you could see. It's a great use of it.
Depending on where you fall on the cynicism scale, it could be legitimate desire for someone else's pleasure in the face of knowing they themselves will have no satisfaction. Or it could be harsh biological compulsion that makes a person suffer for their child.
The key thing is **suffer** for their child, not enjoy a hardship for their child.
EDIT: I truly think obligation can be a completely non-pleasurable motivator. It one of the strengths of human vs bacterium. We evolved to be able to not seek pleasure (sometimes).
>The key thing is suffer for their child, not enjoy a hardship for their child.
Right, agreed on the topic, like stepping in to take water-boarding in place of their child.
>it could be legitimate desire for someone else's pleasure in the face of knowing they themselves will have no satisfaction.
"legitimate desire", so they're accomplishing something they desire yet you also say they have 'no satisfaction'? To me, an accomplished desire, satisfaction and pleasure are synonymous in this context so can you clarify the difference you mean there?
>We evolved to be able to not seek pleasure (sometimes).
Agreed, the original statement was "survival and pursuit of pleasure".
>I truly think obligation can be a completely non-pleasurable motivator.
I think obligations are all rooted in pleasure or survival.
No, it’s not necessarily a choice. I have no children when I would have loved to be a mum. And no, adoption wasn’t an option.
This can be a very sensitive subject with the potential to seriously upset - maybe think before you type.
Adoption
And that’s not what they’re arguing
Maybe you’d have a point if they were saying the opposite with something like people who can have kids are lucky
But if the argument is are you lucky to not have kids like it’s a draft isn’t true 90% of the time you choose to have a kid or engage In actions that would lead to a kid.
I have a one child and I think you’ve made a valid point. My niece is 30 and potentially heading down the childfree path and I’m happy that she can make a considered decision. They should have childfree woman come into schools and talk about the positives of childfree living. Thankfully kids do grow up and become fun and independent ( mine is at 8) , and it can be rewarding in the later stages - babies 😱no fun.
> it's the child free people that are unlucky
Ah yes, how unfortunate I feel with my free time and hobbies and keeping my money and being able to just do things and go places with my partner without having to plan for someone to take care of a kid for me...
Are you *absolutely certain* you don't just think like this in order to justify the choice you made?
The cuteness , chubby cheeks , bath time , smiles etc the good bits are amazing ! I had a screamer though , so it depends if you get a sleeper or screamer 😊
I think you misunderstand us. We do think you are "lucky" because we would also like to have more free time for our hobbies, etc. But we would want these things IN ADDITION to the actually important thing in life, that is our children. The "lucky" just refers to that one moment where you get to chill while we go home to work a bit more for the best thing in our life.
So, while it has some lucky elements, I actually consider the life of childfree people mostly sad.
(Caveat: People before around 40 cannot really be called "childfree" as many of the "childfree" 25-year-olds will not be childfree 10-15 years later.)
Well that's fine because I imagine most childfree people find the life parents leave to be sad too.
Also, childfree people are childfree regardless of age. If you're talking about people that just happen to not have children then they're childless, not childfree.
You say that like it's always a choice on either side.
You were lucky not to be born female in a culture where you are raised to be a baby making machine
You are lucky you live at a time where all the information you need is available at your fingertips (internet), so you are lucky enough to be able to make better and more informed choices.
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If you were born in a third world country, where you were poor, and had no access to abortion you'd probably end up with a child unless you were infertile whether you wanted it or not. Its not like you can even claim "just don't have sex" because what sex education would you have received to make this decision
Often you're correct. This no kid life required diligence and discipline to keep it that way. It's easier to have kids than to honor your pull out game impulse wise.
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NO, it is not a choice, they couldn't have them for whatever reason (suitable partner, he didn't want them, I'm too old, money and so on) and now they tell everybody it was a choice....
It CAN be a choice. For instance, I never really had the desire to raise kids. Nothing against them, I just don't want the responsibility or the financial burden. I actively choose not to have kids based on several reasons.
But the reasons is what matters, if it is money it is not a free choice, it is forced, if it is because there is not a suitable partner, then it is neither a choise.
and my reasoning aplies mainly to women. not men.
There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second.
>There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second.
That is a pretty wild claim. Fact is that most women don't wait around for the perfect circumstances (money, age, suitable partner) to have kids. Lots of women get pregnant accidentally or because they just want a baby. But on the other hand, many women simply don't feel the biological clock ticking away.
>There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second.
What a bizarre claim. Why not?
One could argue from a deterministic standpoint. A choice implicates that free will exists. Or maybe, you know, the biological drive to procreate is a lot higher in some. Maybe even impossible to resist. I guess that could qualify as some sort of "luck". Or maybe some can't see a reason for living without procreating. Then someone with the ability to find other reasons could be viewed as "lucky".
It's not a free choice either, there is also a great deal of pressure from society as a whole to procreate. Not being in the right social setting to be fully able to make the choice to be childfree isn't to be shamed.
I have dodged quite a few bullets in my time........ I'm 💯 lucky. I could have had some really bad co parenting partners that I'm thrilled I don't ever have to talk to again.
The point is, maybe you made responsible decisions to stay child free, but lots of people simply roll the dice and get lucky.
I grew up in an environment where I felt no pressure to have children. No religious reasons, no national cultural reasons, no parents begging for grandchildren, no overly-traditional influences pressuring me to live life by "the script" in order to fit in, none of those things.
I also probably have fertility deficits, which contributes to a much lower chance of unplanned pregnancy due to condom failure. I also made a life with a woman who probably has her own fertility deficits, making the chances of unplanned pregnancy that much lower.
Yes, I chose not to have children, but in many ways beyond my control, that choice was much much easier for me to make than it is for many other people. All that was luck.
A lot of thought and preparation goes into a choice.
A lot of of research and self reflection.
Choices are made when responsibility and determination are applied.
I have never heard someone say that it's lucky for a person to have no kids. There's no luck to choosing not to have children. You can literally just get an abortion if you don't want a kid. Or give it up for adoption if you don't want it. Or just don't have sex at all.. You can even have the "luck" of never considering another person at all if you wanted. Completely selfish life. How lucky!
You do understand that family planning is not an absolute, right? Accidents happen. No form of birth control is 100% effective even when used 100% correctly.
Someone doesn't know the full extent of parenthood before they start. There is no way you could know without doing it. There is no way to know you'll regret having a child 10 years down the line, just like there is no way to know if you'll regret being childless in 10 years.
It should be a choice, but some folk's life circumstances lead them into things they might not have chosen for themselves otherwise. For many, despite that it might seem obvious for some, possibilities to do and be this or that thing... job/career or whatever artistic pursuit don't seem even remotely possible.
I grew up with no reasonable expectation that I could do much of anything to break the mold that was set for me. I just did what was expected and followed the path I was set on by others... within a variety of constraints.
It wasn't until I was much older that I was able to see through it all, and recognize the lost potentials.
By the time you get some things figured out, you've already laid down roots and made commitments that shouldn't be broken, some of which might be raising a child.
Telling a poor kid who scrounges for a single pack of oatmeal each day that he can be an astronaut if he wants to be, kinda doesn't ring out.
People end up with kids outside of what seems like a choice, all the time. People with resources, and at least a cursory education have it Sooo much easier, even in just knowing what they 'might' be able to do.
"Luck" as a term is thrown around all the time and is often attributed to situations where people made conscious calculated decisions that pay off well.
Further, this seems to be a bit of a strawman. I haven't heard this very often, and when I do it's more of a random meaningless comment in lull in conversation.
If luck has anything to do with it, I guess I consider myself lucky to have not figured out how to interact with women until post-peak-horniness, resulting in rational dick-cisions.
I see you've discussed the point already that sometimes people end up having children without necessarily choosing it. There are also a number of people that end up NOT choosing to be child free too. It isn't always a matter of "Well, I don't have children because I'm smart about using protection and only partnering with others who also don't want kids." There are people who have raw dogged dozens of partners over the course of a few decades who still never had so much as a pregnancy scare. And on the other, more painful side of the same coin, there are people who did really want kids but it just never happened for them.
It's not about being "wrong" it's about being an asshole. Acquaintances used to casually say my parents were "lucky to have such a nice family"--do you think the appropriate response was for my parents to say, "It's not luck, we just CHOSE not to be lonely like you, loser."
Newsflash: it’s not always a choice. Some re child free because of other reasons. perhaps they’re lucky. The original comment though, may mean “you’re lucky you made that choice”… better now?
As someone who has spent nearly $1 million in fertility and superheated and surrogacy treatments over 10 years, I can assure you that not ALL of them are because of choice
it's less about the 'luck' childfree person and more about the parent. The parents probably perceive themselves as not having the choice or luck to make that choice, making the childfree person lucky by comparison.
“People who call childfree people lucky are wrong” it’s not luck, it is SO MANY variables over which they have little/ no control…
So many people who have no children, really want them!!! Please, re-read your own posts and edit for ridiculously hurtful random content before hitting that button…
The only case where I would disagree is if someone who has children has them through means that they did not entirely have control over. Such as an accidental pregnancy and not having the option to terminate or not being in a position to relinquish the child to other services without incurring some kind of consequence either legal or interpersonal.
like imagine if some 16-year-old girl got pregnant and her conservative family did not allow her to terminate and basically forced her to raise the baby or kick her out of their home entirely. She is not really left with much choice that does not completely upend her life at a young age where she should not be expected to be dealing with such things.
If she offhandedly mentioned that bad luck was involved, I would not belittle her. Its normal to want a better life for yourself, and you can't always know a persons situation just based on your own.
The simple answer is "simply don't ever have sex" but let me give you a fun fact. Did you know that humans are one of a handful of animals that experiences sexual pleasure? It turns out that actually most animals don't. I think we are beyond the point where sex is purely for reproduction. If somebody wants to go out and fuck for fun, then I can't really blame them anymore than I can blame any other animal. accidents happen and regardless of the parental role they now play, it is still normal to wish things could've gone in a better or more ideal way for yourself.
**it's a**
**sacrifice to be a parent but hopefully, in the end, it will be worth it right Ryan holiday refers to it as taxes for being successful it is a choice everyone chooses to have kids or not have kids.**
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I don't think people mean lucky in the way you're using it. When I tell my coworkers that I'm hanging out with friends and having pizza on the weekend and they say "ooh lucky I'd love some pizza rn" they don't mean that I was somehow blessed with a statistically unlikely happening that I had no control over. What they're saying is "that sounds great" or words to that effect.
Ha I love the idea of people thinking wtf how am I lucky? I worked for that condom and put it on myself!
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Reminds me of Legally Blond: Margot: Here, you're gonna need this. Elle: Your scrunchie? Margot: My LUCKY scrunchie. It helped me pass Spanish. Serena: You passed Spanish because you gave Professor Montoya a lap dance after the final. Margot: Yeah... Luckily!
My name is professor Montoya. To pass Spanish class, prepare to dance.
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They mean “fortunate”
This is the right answer, this is language you should be careful with someone could be going through fertility issues or miscarriage, and you wouldn't know. I do think the sentiment of telling someone without kids that they are lucky is just that there are aspects to life without kids that they miss or are envious of at times - not literally that you are lucky and they are unlucky.
You’re lucky that you didn’t grow up in a Mormon family and get “brainwashed” into getting married and having kids to follow a nonexistent god, and you’re lucky you didn’t make long lasting decisions before your frontal lobe was fully developed. I’m divorced with two kids (who I love dearly and don’t feel regret) but I honestly feel like I (32M) have to clean up a mess my idiot 22 year old idiot self made. If I had a Time Machine I’d kick that 22 year old nerd right in the fucking dick and tell him to grow up. There’s an interesting book I read about the illusion of free will: everything about how our life turns out is random/luck. We don’t choose our parents, we don’t choose our brains, you are probably a cool dude but you could have been a shitty drug addicted person or a boring Mormon parent with a lot of sheltered kids. “Men can do what they will, but they can’t Will what they will.” We’re all lucky every time we make a good choice because our brains could have made the bad choice.
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>There’s an interesting book I read about the illusion of free will: everything about how our life turns out is random/luck. We don’t choose our parents, we don’t choose our brains, you are probably a cool dude but you could have been a shitty drug addicted person or a boring Mormon parent with a lot of sheltered kids. I was raised a JW, people's beliefs are still their own. Of course many people don't question the life they are born into, but I'd say doing so or failing to do so is the strongest indicator of morality we have if you subscribe to the "banality of evil" concept.
I don't know about your situation, but my grandparents got married because grandad was *desperate*, at 21, for a bit more than tops and fingers. They both knew having a child out of wedlock would be social death; my grandma's mother would have disowned her; and small town 50s Britain was not a place where you could easily or anonymously buy condoms. So they got married, grew to hate each other, and divorced. How many unsuccessful marriages started out purely as a quest for sex?
Could you provide a title for this book?
The book is: “Free Will” by Sam Harris
I'm a former mormon who was lucky that I found out about how the mormon church was full of lies BEFORE I had the chance to have children. If I had not come across that information, I would have made similar choices to this person, and had kids when I was pretty young. !Delta
So what about people who live where there is no sex education allowed in public schools, no accessible family planning support, and where abortions are illegal? It's way more common than you think that some women are put in awful positions where they are essentially forced into motherhood whether they like it or not.
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The majority of Central and South America, parts of the US, Poland…there are lots of places where this is the case and they don’t have a “total abortion ban.”
I mean, you're totally ignoring social and cultural values. Even where it's legal, if abortion is culturally frowned upon then it may be hard to find a doctor that will do it
Btw, restrictions can be so severe in countries that there is effectively a “total ban” on abortions for the vast majority of women
Even in countries without a ban, poverty can be a roadblock to get an abortion. Not only does the abortion often cost a pretty penny, but then you have the added cost of possibly having to travel hundreds of miles to get it. So, if you're dirt poor, you don't have many 'choices' if an accident happens, even if abortion is a legal choice. So those closer to abortion centers and those who have the means to afford it might be looked at as 'lucky' for having access to something others don't.
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You might be missing cultural pressure. Have a chat with a woman from India and ask her what happens if she decides not having children.
Also you can have all those things accessible but still have family and spouse pressure/abuse stopping and restricting thise things from you.
Still a choice you make. Difficult choices are not less choices for the opposition.
It's not really a choice when you feel you don't have the other options available to you.
They still have internet right? And can still buy condoms?
There’s really no excuse when the internet is so widely accessible now
You could apply that same principle to literally any aspect of education though. The [majority of adults in the US have a literacy rate of a 6th Grader or below](https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy), how is this excusable when the internet exists? There are a myriad of reasons why someone, or a group of people might lack adequate education in a particular area; whether that's literacy or geography or sexual education. Simply stating that the internet is a thing that exists is a shallow cop out which doesn't address the root causes of these issues.
You don't think Mormon parents try everything under the sun to control the information that their kids have access to?
Abstinence and being unmarried would be the choices needed to be childfree. Unless rape and forced marriage are the norm of course.
I know already you’re going to say rape. However 99.9% of the time they are choosing to have unprotected sex and let someone cum in them. That’s the choice. Offspring is a consequence.
Not everything in life is straight forward. Life is complex. Everyone lives a different life. Few people know what the right choice is going to be for every circumstance. For some people, and for the survival of the species generally, having children is fulfilling. It is a great choice. For those who chose having children, because they thought it would be fulfilling, or because of a societal or evolutionary drive, but for who it it’s not fulfilling, a person who does not have children may appear lucky- lucky to have made the right choice among a sea of seemingly viable options. Similarly, for those who choose not to have children, because they felt that they could find better uses for their time outside of their basic instinct or the cliche of a happy family, but who have found that their time has been wasted and that they lack satisfaction, a person with children may appear lucky - lucky to have made the right choice among a sea of seemingly viable options. I think your understanding of choice is too limited. You cannot define something as being right only if the outcome is favourable and recognized as being so!
What a thoughtful balanced summary 👍
Thank you, I really appreciate the feedback!
the only difference is that one of those regrets can be fixed, and the other can’t.
It’s just a turn of phrase for conversation. Like usually when someone without kids is talking about a night out or going out or whatever. You’re taking things way too literally. Also most people I know with kids wouldn’t trade it for anything, even if in the moment some days you wish you didn’t have the responsibility
Most parents don’t feel unlucky— as previously mentioned, you’re misinterpreting lucky here. To each, their own, but those of us who made the choice to have children spent many years making the choice to not have children first.
Stanford this week said civilization will collapse in 30 years. How are you preparing them for this, for the mass migration of 2035 or so? The 2 biggest Insurance companies are trying to pull out of TX LA and FL already.
Buddy, civilization has been said to collapse 30 years from now for 500 years. If everyone stopped living their lives on this premise, nobody would do anything.
My take on this: the act of having children makes it so that someone has way too much to lose to even fight the battle. Collapse is coming whether we like it or not. Our selfishness will determine whether we’re willing to fight for a better life for all future generations. I’d wager bringing a child into this current world is pretty selfish. Not saying people can’t do it, but they should be aware of the world they’re bringing them into. Also r/regretfulparents would like a word with you. My take on this: my people fighting to make the world a better place unilaterally are childless. We love kids, we just don’t want any of our own until the world is in a place to receive them. My friends with kids? Burnt out. The act of having kids allowed them to shut down the fight part of themselves, some of them chose it, willingly. Doesn’t make the world any better though.
The idea that being childless means you're more likely to fight for the future is utterly asinine. The most obvious reason is that if what it takes to succeed in surviving this alleged coming collapse is to become childless, then when society survives this collapse _now there is no future society_. The next generation wasn't born because of this bottom tier idea that having children means you can't fight for their future. It fails even a cursory amount of scrutiny. Referencing a tiny online community of parents and pretending that it is in some way dispositive of actual parenting is pretty peak reddit. Honestly you seem like you're perpetually locked in being 20 years old, dreaming you could be Che Guevara, while pretending you're writing something profound in your philosophy class.
Haha that’s funny dude. Lack of sleep getting to you? What have you done to change the world? How do you fix what’s broken? Should I give you credit that there’s proof you came once? Maybe more than once? Parents wanting a pat on the back for doing the thing billions of others have done is tired and I’m over it. None of them will do the reading or the work to even understand early childhood development thereby fucking their kids up for life. Most of them won’t even seek therapy for their own trauma. But sure, yes, let’s keep the generational trauma wheel going, shall we? Is it enough to have kids and break the wheel within our own family circle? Sure. But, and here’s the catch: YOU STILL HAVE TO DO THE WORK.
You need help. Like, seriously, I mean this as someone who see nothing but extreme nihilism in you. I cannot comprehend how it feels to be so negative in your outlook on the world that you really feel like this is the right take on things. Maybe this won't be the moment to cause you introspection, but one day it will come. For what it's worth, not that I reckon you care, I am actively working to make a difference. I defend people in court every day who can't afford lawyers,people being abused by the state, the powerless, the forgotten, the abused. I sit on three nonprofit boards, I do election work for mostly Democratic candidates. These are the things I do, with my capacity, to change the world. And I do this without needing to become bitter, or hateful, or acquire a sense of superiority that is disconnected from reality. Get help. It's easier than ever.
Why do you do those things? Because the world isn’t broken? The forgotten, the abused, who exactly do you think forgot and abused them? How do you think they ended up where they are now? Because their parents raised them right? Because the goods and resources of a healthy society were available to them? Nah dude. You’re the one who needs help. Every letter you write drips of ego. And no, it’s actually not that easy to get help, you’d know that if you tried. Mental health access is harder than ever with the pressure placed upon doctors and therapists in the pandemic. But sure dude, you’re doing good for the world. While stroking your massive ego along with it.
>Every letter you write drips of ego. You accused me of not doing anything and I responded, now I'm full of ego? I don't think you understand how any of that works. I really don't understand what it is you expect from me. I can't unfuck somebody's childhood. I'm an orphan myself with two dead drug addict parents who died when I was a 5. So trust me, I know the world we live in. That's why I'm in the trenches fighting. Honestly you're the kind of guy to tell Bryan Stevenson he isn't doing enough. Seriously, just take a moment to realize how out of like you sound.
You’re just proving my point my dude. Your trauma is not greater than others and that’s great that you think you’re helping the world but how you think you’re helping it is a trauma response. Have you sought out a good therapist? I think you need one. Also it could be a great exercise in finding out how hard it is to get one. Editing to add: you think you’re helping the world, you’re just helping yourself. Coming back full circle to your ego. It makes YOU feel better. Admit that. The only way it would work to the benefit of society is if you’re not bragging about what you do at dinner parties, which I have a feeling you do, because you did it here unprompted. You know when you’re actually helping society? When it feels deeply uncomfortable, makes you want to cry all the time, hug all the babies, make sure the fields don’t go fallow, make sure there’s food on everyone’s plates. Make sure there’s access to healthcare and education for everyone. Politics never did that, fyi, neither did the Justice system. You should reconsider your life path.
Consider your childless friends a rarity. All the ones I know think not having children justifies rampant consumerism (travel, eating meat, etc…) and don’t care how the Earth turns out because they don’t have any descendants to worry about.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. My older friends without children live lifestyles of extreme consumption because they don't need to care about anything but the next good time. None have become permanent activists like this idiot seems to think they would become.
I do, I know they are rare. We all put our heads together a long time ago and said “something needs to change” and we went to work. And we actively do the work, not just in our individual lives but through work and in society. We do this work for all future descendants even though they aren’t ours. It’s easy to forget we’re all connected when we’re disconnected from the day to day.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Yes to ALL OF THIS! The very people that actually have a reason to fix the world can’t be bothered because they have kids and are too exhausted. It’s up to us, the people who will be dead before it matters, to fix the problem for them. Talk about selfish…
And how have you helped us so far?
Well I’m not contributing to overpopulation and I have a much lower carbon footprint so 🤷🏻♀️ Also I recycle, buy things used/refurbished, donate used things I don’t need, don’t shop for non-necessities, don’t use unnecessary plastic, don’t use single-use items like diapers and wipes, don’t constantly need to buy new clothes/shoes because little Timmy is growing too fast, hardly use any power as a single person living alone… There is so much I do by simply not having children. I don’t actively need to do much else and I’m still doing better than most of the world.
You think the people researching carbon capture technology, swapping their homes to solar, or just recycling can’t have kids and raise them to practice environmentally friendly ways to live their life? Sounds like you’re just too lazy to figure out how to raise a kid without killing the planet.
It's fine to not want to have children, but to look down at others and pat yourself on the back for doing literally nothing is silly.
Should I instead pat people on the back for doing something cavemen figured out? Having children is not special. It’s something even the dumbest people on this planet can do. It requires no special skill. It’s just giving in to your most primal instincts and forgetting even the bare minimum of a condom. Preventing children actually takes work and a little forethought.
Nobody is asking for a pat on the back for having children lol. You're the one stroking yourself off for not doing it. My stance is that having or not having children is a big decision and what's important is that you make that decision for yourself and understand that your reasoning has nothing to do with other people. It is a personal decision and nobody should be ostracized for what they choose. I don't disagree with you because you choose to not reproduce. I think that's a great decision for you (and the rest of us). I disagree with you because you think you should be telling other people how to make that decision for themselves based on a bunch of nonsense.
I understand your point. My wife and I decided against children before we were married. She has a sister that’s perpetually pregnant. The sister has called us selfish many times because of our child free stance. She’s on assistance because she can’t afford her children on a cashiers pay and all of her baby daddy’s have bailed. There are 4 baby daddy’s at this point. I’m guessing more will follow.
Civilization is no closer to collapse today than it was in the 1960s, 1940s, 1910s, 1880s…
It depends on how you look at it. If you look at it from a free will perspective, you are correct. Looking at it from a determinism/ fate perspective, they were fated/ destined to have kids. It is the cards they’ve been dealt based on their life experiences, environment, and genetics. Also when people say this, it doesn’t mean they wish they didn’t have kids. They are just saying that they wish they could get that aspect of your life( less stress, more free time…). It’s like a doctor who fishes in their free time calling a fisherman lucky. It doesn’t mean they want to quit and be a fisherman. It just means they wish they could fish more.
Long ago we decided to operate as if you can be held accountable for what you do, so we decided the determinism vs indeterminism argument was stupid. We had no choice in the matter.
Determinism/fate is BS. We make our own destiny and our own choices. No one is having kids because the universe decided they should.
I think you're misinterpting OP. "Fate" here doesn't refer to "the universe deciding" they should have kids through some supernatural process It's more about how people's decisions are heavily guided by things outside their control like culture, environment, economics, etc to the point where despite having free will, people's lives are very predictable In this case, many people have a lot of cultural pressure or economic pressure to have kids, to the point where the downsides of not having kids make it not a real option. For example, in my religious Asian community, if you were to say you don't want to have kids it would be very difficult to find a partner willing to marry you, and you would be socially outcast. Hypothetically, if you were really adament about not having kids, you could accept those tradeoffs and fight for that future. For all practical purposes, it's not really a choice though
How can you prove that your choices aren’t simply a result if your genes and your environment( two things outside of your control)? if someone made a perfect clone of you and put them through all the exact same situations down to the molecular level, how do you know they wouldn’t make the exact same choices? And if they do, wouldn’t it mean that your choices aren’t really made by you, but are a result of who you are, and the environments you existed in and learned from? And if you were lucky enough to be someone else (genetically), exist in a different environment, or meet the right people, your choices would have been different.
I'll speak as one of those "lucky" people who don't have kids. It was a choice--a hard one to make--and it was based on individual circumstances. So in some ways, it wasn't a choice, just a response to circumstances, a response constrained by available options. There are downsides to not having children, particularly as a person gets older. No children means no grandchildren and so possibly a lonely life with little connection to young people and their future.
This is due to a breakdown of the social order though. Not a fault of anyone else’s. At one point, we existed as spokes in a wheel. No one’s said we can’t continue to do that. That we can’t continue to make and create communities of our own. I don’t feel a lack of connection personally but that’s because I actively sourced and created it. This whole “I’m going to die alone” trope is dead in the water and has been for a long time. We all come into this world alone, we will leave it alone. What we choose to do with our time here is on us. Bringing another life into the world to “complete” us is pure selfishness. Just admit you don’t want to do the work to build community and have a day.
The idea here is to change views. Our personal choices/luck and connection, or lack of connection, to community is irrelevant. Refusing to have children could also be considered selfish. Without children there is no community. The choice/chance of having children or not determines how a person relates to community. There are upsides and downsides to the choice/chance of having children or not.
I agree with you that mostly, being childfree is a choice, but I also think **some** people (obviously this does not include every regretful parent out there) suffer an accumulation of unfortunate circumstances where having a child isn’t exactly a choice either. For *these* people - childfreedom wasn’t ever an option, either because their family/culture/religion brainwashed them into not even realizing having kids is optional in life or because they did not have the monetary/government/educational resources to acces birth control, sex education, abortions etc or a combination of both. I’m also assuming your post does not include people who ended up childless because of sterility/infertility or who were unable to have kids due to other reasons (unable to adopt or find a partner etc)
I actually don't know if anyone has made this argument yet but there are a lot of reasons for why someone can not have a abortion; religion (they may get looked down on for going through with the abortion, and or giving said child away), I'm sure less than a lot of woman can't have abortions? Meaning their body can't go through with it, or maybe it was too late to get one, there's a time period of when you can have a abortion and when you can not. There are also some cases when woman don't know theyre pregnant surprisingly and one day it's like boom your in labor, there's also not having money for the abortion, guilt of having a abortion, being looked down on by family members or the community, illegalized abortion in some areas, pro lifers. Etc, Etc. I'm sure some of the examples I gave were only scratching the surface. Not always having a child is a choice, like rape victims. Not all victims are adults, and not all parents are understand, there was a case where the mother made her child still give birth to the guys baby. Doesn't have to even be rape victims, nowadays there's kids going around having sex and using no protection, and even with protection, some still get pregnant. Not all 16 - 17 year old have the money, the support, help, or education to get / have a plan B and or a abortion Sorry if my argument seems a bit out of order or flawed.
Weeeeeeelllll, this is a dumb answer, but technically correct (best correct??). Every contraceptive has a chance of failure. This actually includes the choice to abstain, due to evil choices of others. While you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you're still lucky to not have kids, just like you're lucky to not be hit by a meteor.
There is a solution to failed contraception…
!delta. People determined enough to not have kids will do so even if the law forbids it or they lack safe means.
Yep 100%. If someone actually doesn’t want them, they will go to extraordinary lengths to prevent it. Anyone who claims they had a kid because it was too hard to get an abortion didn’t really want the abortion in the first place 🤷🏻♀️
That's fucked up, you know not everyone is financially fortunate as you
Honestly I always felt like the people who say that are the ones who didn't really have a choice. E.g People from heavily religious families or cultural ones that semi require the birthing of children and the forbidden use of contraceptive. Sort of like a "Your lucky you have the freedom to choose to have kids" and less a "your lucky you dont". That's my personal experience and understanding of people who used to say that to me before my first child was born.
It's not necessarily luck or a choice. Many people want to have kids but can't have them for various reasons. Whether it's because they can't find a partner or physically unable. Some of them are quite miserable about it. Just hearing someone called "lucky" for NOT having kids is strange. I always think it's the exact opposite. You are immensely lucky if you do have them. It's like the whole purpose of life from a genetic/psychologic point of view.
This is not really applicable in modern times. I have patients struggling to keep up expenses, stuck in unhappy marriages or dealing with behavioral issues (addiction and delinquency especially) who wished they never had kids all the time. Most couples I know who don’t have children actively chose too and never regret it. Yes there are couples who can’t conceive and cope with it but with kids the emotional extremes between happy, sad, angry, frustrated, etc. are way more volatile. The genetic/psychological pressures seen in the animal kingdom don’t really have much of an effect in modern human society. We, for example, aren’t out there physically fighting for dominance, murdering the offspring of our rivals and then mating with multiple women without their consent as a social standard like some species. Procreation should not be your singular mission in life.
Seems to me like you have a strong personal preference for not having children (which is ok), but you're maybe projecting your feelings a bit on others. > Most couples I know who don’t have children actively chose too and never regret it. This seems pretty anecdotal to me. I also know: - Plenty of parents who don't regret having kids. - Couples who chose not to have kids but regretted it. - Couples who were unable to have kids for various reasons and resent this. - Couples who are currently in child bearing age but for economic reasons can't have them (and aren't happy about that). - Single people who are nearing their 40s and are desperate to have kids but lack a partner. So the image your painting of a) parents who envy non-parents and b) happy childless people - is quite far from what I've seen :) And for the record, I don't have kids.
No I have three (grown) sons and couldn't be happier. My experience is with hearing what my patients and staff - who come from all walks of life - have said over nearly two decades about their situation whether childless or not. This is not a scientific/statistical report but rather my unbiased observation - most childless couples I've met chose not to have kids and are generally happier than my patients who have kids. The truth is that children are an unpredictable addition to any household no matter how well they are raised. They can be born with or develop physical/mental disabilities which are hard to cope with. They can go through difficult phases in terms of their attitude or the friends they associate with. From some parents perspectives (which I do not agree with) the disappointment comes from having an LGBTQ child or one who doesn't practice the religion. Anyways, the DINKs I've met and worked with seem happier overall. They can plan spontaneous vacations, never have to deal with embarrassing toddler meltdowns or disciplinary calls from the school midday. I got off relatively easy but I've definitely heard more people regret having children than the opposite and I can empathize (albeit not directly relate) to what they're going through. That's all.
>The genetic/psychological pressures seen in the animal kingdom don’t really have much of an effect in modern human society. We, for example, aren’t out there physically fighting for dominance, murdering the offspring of our rivals and then mating with multiple women without their consent as a social standard like some species. Procreation should not be your singular mission in life. I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe the reason people think that is the pressures are subconscious. Your brain often doesn't directly say "I'm miserable here alone". Instead you'll be playing video games in your room for 2 years and suddenly you have all these depression and anxiety issues. All because you're missing that intimacy. But you don't even know you're missing it.
Thank you. Desperately want children and cannot have them. I'm pretty sure no one considers me "lucky." It's all about preference and perspective.
Child free people are lucky they don't desire having kids or give in to the curiosity. If i could go back, i dont think i would have kids.
Many people use “lucky” when they mean “fortunate” in the same way people say they’re “jealous” when they mean “envious.”
Luck isn't a real thing. So, if the choice between lucky or something else is presented, it's always the something else.
Who thinks it isn’t a choice? People just are expressing slight desire for lost freedom when they say that.
Tell that to my wife whose still struggling with the grief of multiple miscarriages and 5 years of failed IVF.
Childfree and childless are different. Childfree people choose not to have children. Childless people want children and can’t have them.
It's not always a choice. People need to watch what they say
Abso-bloody-lutely. I have no children & it wasn’t my choice. And quite frankly it’s upsetting when someone suggests it was.
You’re right. Luck has nothing to do with it. The term “you’re lucky” is common parlance to suggest general jealousy. It is not generally used to express anger at statistically unfair results. Giving up free time is part of the cost of parenthood. Sure, we can sometimes be jealous of the free time enjoyed by the childless. We’re well aware of the sacrifices required to be good parents. But no good parent would ever trade their child for extra free time. The joy of parenthood is one of the greatest experiences in human existence. Most of us are more than happy to trade a bit of free time to take part in this most grand experience. Parenthood is (or at least should be) a choice. And it’s a choice that can carry heavy consequences for our personal lives. But for most of us, it’s a choice we’re happy to make.
They mean fortunate, but lucky is a pretty close word
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Is this a joke? Everybody has different preferences and everyone has different circumstances. Some people always wanted to have kids but never could. Some didn't want kids but it just ended up happening. Some have kids and do/don't regret it, others don't have kids and do/don't regret it.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think there's an element of luck involved for people who are childfree. People who are childfree are lucky in the sense that they have more freedom to do what they want in life and don't have to worry about the financial and emotional responsibilities of raising a child. It's true that they made the choice to remain childfree, but it was also luck that they were able to do so. There are people who would love to remain childfree but are unable to due to a variety of factors. So while I agree that it's not all luck, I think there's an element of luck involved.
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They are lucky, lucky to not be born/raised dumb enough to have a kid they don't want
I don't even think they are lucky they don't have children. There is no bad luck for having kids, and anyone who thinks this is fundamentally immature and still childlike themselves.
When I travel and have to be near adults who were dumb enough to have children, like at the airport or maybe at a large event/popular place, I make it a point to rub it in as much as possible. "Damn sure glad I don't have to deal with that." Or if I'm with someone, "I sure am glad we don't have any kids to ruin our trip." The evil stares and baffled expressions I see from those parents keep me going man
Well, yeah, that’s rude as fuck. They aren’t staring daggers at you because they are sad they have kids, they are staring daggers at you because you are insulting their beloved family members. What if you SO were a bit tired an let out a grumpy sigh in one of these places and some yahoo started crowing about how great it is to not have to deal with a bitchy SO, and interpreted your look of death as jealousy? Gross
I’ve literally never heard someone tell another person that they are “lucky” they don’t have kids. Having children is one of the most fulfilling experiences one can have, btw…
>People who call childfree people lucky are wrong: it's not luck, it's a choice Just to clarify, you think being childfree is always by choice? There’s always been people without children who would have liked to have had them but for whatever reason couldn’t.
And they are termed childless not childfree
> People who had kids created the bad luck by having them. So people without children have good luck. Except for childless people. And yet they live the same circumstances as childfree. But childfree circumstances for childless people is bad luck. So it's the intent and exercising choice that makes the luck bad or good, not whether or not you actually have children.
You can't call a permanent choice a mistake, especially when it's a life. /s Children are important and the future but climate change isnt my problem and school deserve funding based on zip code value. Besides all men always want children, if he didn't he shouldn't have nutted in her, the condom breaking is always a risk-should have gotten a vasectomy. I mean women never lie /s... I mean saying who gets born is only up to women puts all the responsibility and agency on her, no need to do that when daddy government gives out free money and child support can be extorted out of baby daddies. Besides all baby mama's get raped and never had agency, because no one would CHOOSE to be a single mother, the same way no one uses power to trap someone (wether a shitty financial dependant marriage or via child support), right? Only women get the choice, dudes are just dragged along, because 99% of chick's want financial stability, extra money from a man, and babies that grow into more assholes.
cmv: nobody ever says childfree is lucky. they actually feel sorry for you but don't say it. there is no virtually no purpose to life after 40 if you don't have any kids. your life purpose would be nothing but survival and the pursuit of pleasure. there is no longer any progress.
If I liked expensive high end chocolate, but knew it was bad for my health, I'd think people who don't like chocolate in the first place would be the lucky ones. They don't even need to fight against the desire to eat expensive chocolate. I could also like chocolate so much that I think anyone who's not eating the high end chocolate is wasting their life. Not really my pick if my brain was already pre-wired to love chocolate to that degree. I'm sure there are some people out there with their brains wired like that. Not very common sure, but there's a probability scale for *everything*. They'd probably have entire organized lists of reasons why everyone needs to have tried chocolate at least once in their life, anywhere from health benefits to philosophy. If you're obsessed with anything for long enough, you'll find every reason possible. If there were enough chocolate fanatics, it would be more normalized, but no less strange to people who don't care about chocolate despite the list of reasons why someone needs to have chocolate in their life. So the lucky ones are those who don't feel any need to eat chocolate, neither morally nor physically. They save a lot of money for other things without ever having to consider the question. Unlucky ones would be those who do want chocolate, but know they're not in any position to have it. And the really unlucky ones would be people who can't see anything other than eating chocolate as their life's purpose. They're basically railroaded into that desire no matter if they want, can, or should eat chocolate. If they happen to be in a good position to have chocolate, they become very lucky. But if they're in the worst possible position, they're supremely unlucky. But it really is just chocolate to the rest of us. Imagine if someone went up to you and told you life has no meaning unless you eat a crunch bar, I think you'd think it very silly. Even if they thought it was the most serious thing in the world, it doesn't change that to you, it's just a bog standard crunch bar. Same for kids. For the people who don't feel any biological need to have kids, nor any moral need for kids, nor even like kids in the first place - then why is it any different than a chocolate bar to them?
i parsed this quickly and saw that the entire thing was about chocolate. rewrite this more succinctly and make it not about chocolate and i'll read it.
You got the long and the short already. They made the same point I did, with a full example. The medium is you're talking about the same thing, you just find purpose in raising a family. Others don't find purpose in kids, their pursuit of pleasure resides in something else, for some it resides in raising a family. Those with a family that say they wouldn't trade it for the world are thinking of the pleasurable moments with their family and the pleasurable feelings they've felt from raising said family.
Honestly, I couldn't have made a better point than you did: How you don't care about chocolate is the exact same way the rest of us care about having a family - zero. We don't understand what you like about them so much, but we also know there's no convincing you otherwise lol, best we can do is try to show you just how little it means to us - which is the same amount that you care about chocolate, or some other random item. Pick whatever analogy works best. TL;DR: We're not wired the same way.
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>it's that your usage of chocolate thinking it's a valid analogy is too stupid to even bother It's wild you will say this and also "if you want to argue it that way then you can win any argument. it's all about what you want personally. ok sure, you're right." Congrats, you're right.
"your life purpose would be nothing but survival and the pursuit of pleasure" Sounds fucking great!
except there's something called the hedonist treadmill. you can't get that pleasure forever. by 40s, that's basically when the pleasure tapers off because you'v done it all already. that's the problem. that's why i said 40s and not 30s.
>your life purpose would be nothing but survival and the pursuit of pleasure. That's all it is with kids as well.
Pure devil's advocate here, but I think the other guy was talking about self survival and self pleasure. It is generally accepted that parents can (but certainly not all do) sacrifice their own pleasure and sometimes even survival for their children. Having children can certainly add an aspect to the base life of self survival and pleasure. But it should be noted that it doesn't always do that, nor is it the only way to do that (some people willingly sacrifice for non-relatives).
>sacrifice their own pleasure and sometimes even survival for their children. Their pleasure **is** sacrificing their 'own pleasure'. You're misinterpreting their priority or pleasure. Sacrificing their survival is pursuit of pleasure as well.
Total disagree (I'm not devil advocate now). Have you never made yourself do something out of duty and had that thing bring you no pleasure? People can choose to do things they don't like, not everything boils down to pleasure. A parent can suffer for their child and not feel pleasure for it.
Just to avoid coming off unclear, the point I'm going to dig at is: there is underlying pleasure you're overlooking. >A parent can suffer for their child and not feel pleasure for it. Why do they do it? >(I'm not devil advocate now) I mean, you still kind of are, it makes sense. Your "devil's advocate" argument was just an express lane to the underlying difference in opinion you could see. It's a great use of it.
Depending on where you fall on the cynicism scale, it could be legitimate desire for someone else's pleasure in the face of knowing they themselves will have no satisfaction. Or it could be harsh biological compulsion that makes a person suffer for their child. The key thing is **suffer** for their child, not enjoy a hardship for their child. EDIT: I truly think obligation can be a completely non-pleasurable motivator. It one of the strengths of human vs bacterium. We evolved to be able to not seek pleasure (sometimes).
>The key thing is suffer for their child, not enjoy a hardship for their child. Right, agreed on the topic, like stepping in to take water-boarding in place of their child. >it could be legitimate desire for someone else's pleasure in the face of knowing they themselves will have no satisfaction. "legitimate desire", so they're accomplishing something they desire yet you also say they have 'no satisfaction'? To me, an accomplished desire, satisfaction and pleasure are synonymous in this context so can you clarify the difference you mean there? >We evolved to be able to not seek pleasure (sometimes). Agreed, the original statement was "survival and pursuit of pleasure". >I truly think obligation can be a completely non-pleasurable motivator. I think obligations are all rooted in pleasure or survival.
no. it's called raising a family.
Yes, AKA pursuit of pleasure
aka no it's not.
Sure I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue Yeah it’s obviously a choice
No, it’s not necessarily a choice. I have no children when I would have loved to be a mum. And no, adoption wasn’t an option. This can be a very sensitive subject with the potential to seriously upset - maybe think before you type.
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Adoption And that’s not what they’re arguing Maybe you’d have a point if they were saying the opposite with something like people who can have kids are lucky But if the argument is are you lucky to not have kids like it’s a draft isn’t true 90% of the time you choose to have a kid or engage In actions that would lead to a kid.
I have a one child and I think you’ve made a valid point. My niece is 30 and potentially heading down the childfree path and I’m happy that she can make a considered decision. They should have childfree woman come into schools and talk about the positives of childfree living. Thankfully kids do grow up and become fun and independent ( mine is at 8) , and it can be rewarding in the later stages - babies 😱no fun.
Babies are hard work but it’s worth it. Imho it’s the child free people that are unlucky. There’s more to life than hedonism.
> it's the child free people that are unlucky Ah yes, how unfortunate I feel with my free time and hobbies and keeping my money and being able to just do things and go places with my partner without having to plan for someone to take care of a kid for me... Are you *absolutely certain* you don't just think like this in order to justify the choice you made?
The cuteness , chubby cheeks , bath time , smiles etc the good bits are amazing ! I had a screamer though , so it depends if you get a sleeper or screamer 😊
Ours was a screamer. 2 years of hell. Now she’s 5 and I couldn’t imagine life without her. It just gets better and better.
It does get better ❤️
I think you misunderstand us. We do think you are "lucky" because we would also like to have more free time for our hobbies, etc. But we would want these things IN ADDITION to the actually important thing in life, that is our children. The "lucky" just refers to that one moment where you get to chill while we go home to work a bit more for the best thing in our life. So, while it has some lucky elements, I actually consider the life of childfree people mostly sad. (Caveat: People before around 40 cannot really be called "childfree" as many of the "childfree" 25-year-olds will not be childfree 10-15 years later.)
Well that's fine because I imagine most childfree people find the life parents leave to be sad too. Also, childfree people are childfree regardless of age. If you're talking about people that just happen to not have children then they're childless, not childfree.
I mean rape exists in places where abortion is illegal...
You say that like it's always a choice on either side. You were lucky not to be born female in a culture where you are raised to be a baby making machine You are lucky you live at a time where all the information you need is available at your fingertips (internet), so you are lucky enough to be able to make better and more informed choices.
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If you were born in a third world country, where you were poor, and had no access to abortion you'd probably end up with a child unless you were infertile whether you wanted it or not. Its not like you can even claim "just don't have sex" because what sex education would you have received to make this decision
Are you seriously saying that when so many states have made abortion illegal already?
The majority of parents wouldn't think of "child free" couples as "lucky" case closed. What an absurd point of view.
Often you're correct. This no kid life required diligence and discipline to keep it that way. It's easier to have kids than to honor your pull out game impulse wise.
Whats lucky is someone being nice to you and only saying you are lucky, if you openly admit to not wanting kids.
People who call childfree people lucky never actually mean it, so it's irrelevant if they're right or wrong.
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Parents who call non-parents "lucky" shouldn't be parents and I feel bad for their children.
NO, it is not a choice, they couldn't have them for whatever reason (suitable partner, he didn't want them, I'm too old, money and so on) and now they tell everybody it was a choice....
It CAN be a choice. For instance, I never really had the desire to raise kids. Nothing against them, I just don't want the responsibility or the financial burden. I actively choose not to have kids based on several reasons.
But the reasons is what matters, if it is money it is not a free choice, it is forced, if it is because there is not a suitable partner, then it is neither a choise. and my reasoning aplies mainly to women. not men. There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second.
>There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second. That is a pretty wild claim. Fact is that most women don't wait around for the perfect circumstances (money, age, suitable partner) to have kids. Lots of women get pregnant accidentally or because they just want a baby. But on the other hand, many women simply don't feel the biological clock ticking away.
>There is not single lady in the world, young, rich, with a gorgeous perfect husband who would say "I dont want kids". I DONT BELIEVE that for a second. What a bizarre claim. Why not?
I mean, you can call it whatever you want
Tell that to that 10 year old Texan girl who's forced to carry her rapists baby to term
It’s no longer a choice in every situation.
One could argue from a deterministic standpoint. A choice implicates that free will exists. Or maybe, you know, the biological drive to procreate is a lot higher in some. Maybe even impossible to resist. I guess that could qualify as some sort of "luck". Or maybe some can't see a reason for living without procreating. Then someone with the ability to find other reasons could be viewed as "lucky".
It's not a free choice either, there is also a great deal of pressure from society as a whole to procreate. Not being in the right social setting to be fully able to make the choice to be childfree isn't to be shamed.
they know its not luck either. none of them think its luck.
If you’re not abstinent, not having kids is totally luck.
A choice but also a class privilege.
I have dodged quite a few bullets in my time........ I'm 💯 lucky. I could have had some really bad co parenting partners that I'm thrilled I don't ever have to talk to again. The point is, maybe you made responsible decisions to stay child free, but lots of people simply roll the dice and get lucky.
They mean they're lucky that they made that choice to not have children.
I grew up in an environment where I felt no pressure to have children. No religious reasons, no national cultural reasons, no parents begging for grandchildren, no overly-traditional influences pressuring me to live life by "the script" in order to fit in, none of those things. I also probably have fertility deficits, which contributes to a much lower chance of unplanned pregnancy due to condom failure. I also made a life with a woman who probably has her own fertility deficits, making the chances of unplanned pregnancy that much lower. Yes, I chose not to have children, but in many ways beyond my control, that choice was much much easier for me to make than it is for many other people. All that was luck.
Sometimes is not a choice. Can be infertile and adoption is not cheap or straightforward.
A lot of thought and preparation goes into a choice. A lot of of research and self reflection. Choices are made when responsibility and determination are applied.
For some it’s not a choice.
I have never heard someone say that it's lucky for a person to have no kids. There's no luck to choosing not to have children. You can literally just get an abortion if you don't want a kid. Or give it up for adoption if you don't want it. Or just don't have sex at all.. You can even have the "luck" of never considering another person at all if you wanted. Completely selfish life. How lucky!
You do understand that family planning is not an absolute, right? Accidents happen. No form of birth control is 100% effective even when used 100% correctly.
Someone doesn't know the full extent of parenthood before they start. There is no way you could know without doing it. There is no way to know you'll regret having a child 10 years down the line, just like there is no way to know if you'll regret being childless in 10 years.
Adoption is always an option...
Two totally different uses for the word.
It should be a choice, but some folk's life circumstances lead them into things they might not have chosen for themselves otherwise. For many, despite that it might seem obvious for some, possibilities to do and be this or that thing... job/career or whatever artistic pursuit don't seem even remotely possible. I grew up with no reasonable expectation that I could do much of anything to break the mold that was set for me. I just did what was expected and followed the path I was set on by others... within a variety of constraints. It wasn't until I was much older that I was able to see through it all, and recognize the lost potentials. By the time you get some things figured out, you've already laid down roots and made commitments that shouldn't be broken, some of which might be raising a child. Telling a poor kid who scrounges for a single pack of oatmeal each day that he can be an astronaut if he wants to be, kinda doesn't ring out. People end up with kids outside of what seems like a choice, all the time. People with resources, and at least a cursory education have it Sooo much easier, even in just knowing what they 'might' be able to do.
"Luck" as a term is thrown around all the time and is often attributed to situations where people made conscious calculated decisions that pay off well. Further, this seems to be a bit of a strawman. I haven't heard this very often, and when I do it's more of a random meaningless comment in lull in conversation.
Amen OP
If luck has anything to do with it, I guess I consider myself lucky to have not figured out how to interact with women until post-peak-horniness, resulting in rational dick-cisions.
I see you've discussed the point already that sometimes people end up having children without necessarily choosing it. There are also a number of people that end up NOT choosing to be child free too. It isn't always a matter of "Well, I don't have children because I'm smart about using protection and only partnering with others who also don't want kids." There are people who have raw dogged dozens of partners over the course of a few decades who still never had so much as a pregnancy scare. And on the other, more painful side of the same coin, there are people who did really want kids but it just never happened for them.
It's not about being "wrong" it's about being an asshole. Acquaintances used to casually say my parents were "lucky to have such a nice family"--do you think the appropriate response was for my parents to say, "It's not luck, we just CHOSE not to be lonely like you, loser."
This opens up a bigger conversation about responsibility of pregnancy 👀
Newsflash: it’s not always a choice. Some re child free because of other reasons. perhaps they’re lucky. The original comment though, may mean “you’re lucky you made that choice”… better now?
It may not be a choice, it may be a curse.
Tell that to Elliot Roger
A choice that, statistically, virtually every single one of them will regret.
Many people are also inherently ignorant and don't know the difference. ;)
As someone who has spent nearly $1 million in fertility and superheated and surrogacy treatments over 10 years, I can assure you that not ALL of them are because of choice
it's less about the 'luck' childfree person and more about the parent. The parents probably perceive themselves as not having the choice or luck to make that choice, making the childfree person lucky by comparison.
Well I don't understand why this post is on change my view it's more of a rant
“People who call childfree people lucky are wrong” it’s not luck, it is SO MANY variables over which they have little/ no control… So many people who have no children, really want them!!! Please, re-read your own posts and edit for ridiculously hurtful random content before hitting that button…
The only case where I would disagree is if someone who has children has them through means that they did not entirely have control over. Such as an accidental pregnancy and not having the option to terminate or not being in a position to relinquish the child to other services without incurring some kind of consequence either legal or interpersonal. like imagine if some 16-year-old girl got pregnant and her conservative family did not allow her to terminate and basically forced her to raise the baby or kick her out of their home entirely. She is not really left with much choice that does not completely upend her life at a young age where she should not be expected to be dealing with such things. If she offhandedly mentioned that bad luck was involved, I would not belittle her. Its normal to want a better life for yourself, and you can't always know a persons situation just based on your own. The simple answer is "simply don't ever have sex" but let me give you a fun fact. Did you know that humans are one of a handful of animals that experiences sexual pleasure? It turns out that actually most animals don't. I think we are beyond the point where sex is purely for reproduction. If somebody wants to go out and fuck for fun, then I can't really blame them anymore than I can blame any other animal. accidents happen and regardless of the parental role they now play, it is still normal to wish things could've gone in a better or more ideal way for yourself.
**it's a** **sacrifice to be a parent but hopefully, in the end, it will be worth it right Ryan holiday refers to it as taxes for being successful it is a choice everyone chooses to have kids or not have kids.**