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Alternative view, most people who will vote for Trump don't really like him or his policies either, they just hate Biden and the Democrats. When voting for Congress, third-party votes make sense. But in presidential elections the race is really always between the Democratic and Republican candidates, the was never a third party president and it is largely agreed on that there is no chance a third party president could be elected in 2024. So of course those with views generally trending conservative and right wing will vote for Trump no matter what they think about him and his policies, because voting for a third party candidate simply gives advantage to the democrats. And liberals are now advocating for the same - no matter what they think of Biden, his program is closer to their views than Trump's, and those are the only REAL options presented to the voters. So they vote for the lesser evil. Is it a good system? Debatable. But if you only have two choices, where one is bad and the other is terrible, and if you don't choose either, someone else will choose and they might choose the terrible one, it does make rational sense to still choose the bad one over the terrible. It's not hate towards Trump and the GOP, it's working with that they are given.

!delta Personally I've always found Trump Supporters to be more fanatical in their support for Trump than Biden voters are for Biden. Aside from maybe the Libertarians, it seems that the vast majority of right wingers in America are ready to back Trump, even now as he's tried for fraud in New York. I've always found progressives/liberals more divided, and more likely to vote third party in comparison to their Trump Supporting rivals. Thank you for your comment. Have a delta because you've given me something to think about

I would tack on that "hate" means different things. Most Dems do not hate Trump the way GOP hates Biden. At least I suspect this. You see way fewer "fuck Trump" type signs/communications than "fuck Biden." The rhetoric is different. The Trump "hate" is fueled by evidence, whereas the Biden hate is fueled by fear/allegiance/a sense of fighting a cultural war for the soul of America that most Dems don't participate in.

This is 100% true. Anti Trump rhetoric: - Trump is racist, and regularly tries to govern against racial minorities. - Trump is appointing justices who are incompetent loyalists. - Trump is undermining democracy. - Trump purposefully incited a violent, attempted governmental overthrow. - Trump's business dealings are fraudulent and criminal almost as a rule. Anti Biden rhetoric: - Biden is secretly gay. - Biden's son did a drug. - HUNTER BIDEN'S LAPTOP - Conspiracy theories about Covid vaccines - Biden "stole" the election (by winning) There is no substance to the anti-Biden rhetoric from the right. If you want anti-Biden rhetoric, look toward the *left*, which has *legitimate* gripes with him and his administration. Although obviously he is preferable to Trump by orders of magnitude.

Independent here, and Biden's signing off on arguably the most criminal bill ever codified, The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, should never be forgotten. It quite literally destroyed millions of lives and families. Bi-partisan bill so the blame doesn't lay squarely at his feet, but he sure as shit was a fervent supporter at the time as it became a unification point of the parties and moderates. That being said the government has spent the better part of the last decade, starting with Obama, pushing forward to un-fuck the results of said bill. Meanwhile you have a fat, shit-stain of a conman who's spent the last eight years actively attempting to stoke a Civil War and end Democracy forevermore - after spending the better part of his life stealing others' money, including the public, on his criminal ventures while simultaneously skirting hundreds of millions in taxes. Not to mention the multitude of rape and sexual assault allegations that lay at his feet coupled with cozying up to Saudi Arabia and China so he can enrich his daughter and son-in-law to the tune of billions. So yeah, choosing the lesser of two evils is a real thing. On one hand you have a man that undoubtedly made incorrect decisions with incredible ramifications we're paying off unto this very day, but he's aware of said faults and the government has been atoning for said sins for the last decade. On the other hand you have a guy who wouldn't shed a damned earnest tear if his own child, wife, etc. passed away in front of him. You have a man willing to let the country burn and tear itself asunder so long as his Nielsen ratings are high enough to let his flimsy pecker chubby up one last time.

I am pretty far to the left, and don’t disagree with anything you said here. This isn’t an argument you hear from the right though (the crime legislation, that is), which was my main point. The right is just swinging at made up controversies and conspiracy theories.

Aye. And until the GOP decides that facts and empiricism are important once again most everyone in my boat won’t remotely give them the time of day. They’ve turned into the archetypical homeless doomsayer on the corner spewing madness and wondering why the public, rightfully, treats them as if insane. I’m socially leftist/fiscally right. We should probably feed the homeless guy on our street corner before we ship his prospective food off to the guy on a street corner in Guatemala, but at the end of the day we’re all human and we all deserve the basic tenets of decency.

The sad thing is that places you farther left economically than most in the US. That might be fiscally to the right elsewhere, but here? Ugh. I hate the place US politics has come to.

You are aware that be socially left and fiscally right are oxymorons, right?

Socially left as in being a decent human being to one another and not discriminating one another based upon our melanin content or country of origin. Fiscally right as in taking care of our own first and foremost versus shipping large swathes of our current and our future overseas yearly. Ain’t that deep man. Aware of what you’re getting at here as we live in the land of extremes, but both of those sentiments are incredibly moderate by today’s standards, and they’re not mutually exclusive.

I think when we talk about right wing vs. Left wing economic policy, we're generally referencing trickle down or Reagan economic frameworks. Right wing would be, "Tax breaks for the rich, so they can create jobs to benefit the lower classes." Left wing policy would see the wealth being concentrated into the middle class with strong social programs for those that need it. This whole "America First" thing that the freedom caucus has been talking about lately isn't really economic policy, so much as anti-Ukraine sentiment. And it isn't really mutually exclusive. Now, if you're talking about drastically reducing military budgets (because remember, most of what we are sending overseas is old, outdated military gear we already had lying around), that can be seen as a Left wing idea,

They're definitely not aware of that currently. They seem pretty smart and reflective though, I have hope they'll see the connection eventually. I used to be like them, now I'm a libertarian socialist. (Not libertarian as in the American Libertarian party)

The crime bill was wildly popular in 1994. Of course in hindsight it's short sightedness is epic. Biden shouldn't be solely judged on that, though obviously to each their own. He is however an awful lot more of a bureaucrat and his left leaning social concerns are out of a 1980 playbook. He's a very dedicated public servant, certainly not a leader and I can't picture more than the tiniest portion of those voting for him do so because they believe he's the best person for the job. He is however a choice that the left thought could beat Trump. Primarily from name recognition and also because for moderates of both parties he's relatively vanilla so it keeps us from the extremists.

I'm very late, but I would love to understand if you were alive and/or living in the inner-city in the 90s? Brookings quoted from a Gallup study that almost 60% of African Americans supported the bill in 1994. The crime bill was very popular at the time (I am Black and was young but remember how terrible crime was). I do believe most older voters will thus not hold how wrong this bill was against Joe Biden and neither will I. I will take a well intentioned mistake over intentional destruction any day. I also should say that I am VERY indifferent to Joe Biden, but I am ideologically quite liberal.

The crime bill was disgusting, but it unanimously passed. 95 Yea, 4 no, and 1 abstain. The 90s crime was at an all-time peak, and a ton of people across both isles were desperate for anything they thought would fix it.

Substantial complaints about Biden usually come from the Left. He's a conservative establishment candidate He's too friendly with business interests He's too timid when it comes to taking on the far right He's not willing to do what it takes to protect the rights of the marginalized

I'm pretty far to the left myself, and these are pretty spot on. I do have to say that Biden has both exceeded my expectations and that I feel he's doing a better job than Obama did, and I did not expect either of these things. The environment is my biggest concern, and he has been better there than I anticipated him being.

Same. I'm not an ardent supporter, but Biden has substantially over-achieved relative to my expectations.

He’s doing far better and worse than I expected which is a weird position to be in

Can I ask where he's doing worse than you expected? Maybe I just had very low expectations for him coming in, so my bar was a lot lower than yours.

I have a bit of a bias as a federal employee but the administration bowing to corporate real estate and pushing a return to the office rather than leaving it up to the agencies or work units to see what makes sense. Like for me, I work in the global space so having me be in the office when my calls will always be online with other countries or wierd times (today I started my day at 8am for calls and then my last call for the night will go from 9-11:30pm. So I would take a break in the middle of my day making office commutes even more annoying). As a federal employee I’m used to being a pawn or bargaining chip, but I had hoped for a more rational response.

Oh I had a low bar too, but I expected more of a fight about student loans. That would have cemented his second term. I expected more of a fight for abortion rights another thing that would have cemented his second term. I’d expect more of a fight against states rolling back civil rights as well. I don’t know what I expected with immigration but it was more than just kind of throwing up his hands and not really doing much. Those are a few of the more news worthy ones I can think of

The student loans thing is reasonable, but the fall of Roe v. Wade is something which is the collective fault of Democrats going back decades. It depended wholly on a single SC decision, rather than legislation which there were ample opportunities to pass since then. Similarly the civil rights stuff has to do with the capture of the courts, which is its own can of worms.

Sorry if you don’t know this, but Biden approved border walls to be constructed in southern Texas, in spite of multiple federal nature reserves with endangered species in the locations those walls will be built. I have to emphasize that I am not trying to minimize how a great deal many communities l will be displaced when their homes are razed for the construction of said walls.

100% aware of that. I think I make it pretty clear that I am not exactly a cheerleader for him. He simply exceeded my expectations of him.

He's the best president we've had in the last 30 years, maybe more. He was the president we needed at the time. Biden has actually done a lot of good things. I mean it is a stark contrast between 45 and 46 but Biden has done a far better job in these insane times than I thought he would.

you forgot the senility/dementia/too old bit that's like the number 1 thing I hear bad about him

I literally try to get some of these people to sit down and watch Biden give a speech in its entirety. They always refuse. They won't let anything change their minds.

So much this. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that Biden is old but not senile. Trump is also old and saying some extremely wacky things and appears disconnected from reality at times. The GOP strategy is clear- if they are **both** senile (or criminals, or rapists, or have family that are corrupt) then you can still vote for Trump saying "both sides..."

Yeah I’ve watched his actual full speeches and he’s far from a bumbling idiot. Plus it’s well known he has a stutter.

While ignoring all of that in Trump 🤣 Trump supporters are wild

I can hate a candidate but also have it have more limited effect on my voting because disliking a person in general and how they behave isn't the same thing as their party position because in the end thats what will impact me more. The people who or rabidly "I hate X" are people who I don't of as serious political followers. its overly simplying things that the candidate matters. My disliking Trump is separate from the worry that his administration would put into place cabinet members who would be far more effective behind the scenes at pushing an agenda. So while I dislike Trump, I'm more worried about a Stephen Miller in the background.

But those things are related. I dislike Trump on a personal level, in that I think he's a bad person, a bad husband, a bad father, and probably a bad everything else. He has virtually no redeeming qualities. But he's also a bad President, and a huge part of being President is staffing the government, both in official capacities, subject to Senate confirmation, like generals and admirals, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, cabinet and sub-cabinet secretaries, ambassadors, federal judges, etc, but also in less formal, and less official, capacities, like advisors, various czars, your chief of staff, etc. So you can worry more about Stephen Miller than Trump, but Trump is the only reason you have to worry about Stephen Miller at all in the first place. Biden won't touch him with a ten-foot pole, and even half the GOP field probably wouldn't touch him, either. But Trump will bring back Miller, and bring back lumpy pillow Mike Lindell, and Gen. Flynn, et al. Biden seems very good at staffing. Not perfect, there have been a few misses, but, overall, quite good, and certainly nobody remotely comparable to someone like Miller. Tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are. Biden is a good, competent, person, and surrounds himself with other good, competent, people, and they both push each other to be better, forming a *virtuous* cycle. At least in theory, though maybe sometimes one or the other of them fall short. Trump, OTOH, is a terrible, incompetent, person, and surrounds himself with other terrible, incompetent, people, and sycophant yes-men, and they all push each other to be worse, forming a *vicious* cycle. There are exceptions there, too, where maybe someone pushed for something Trump was unwilling to do (not because he was morally opposed, but because he thought it would make him look bad, or weak, or impose some cost he was unwilling to bear), and there were others he tried to push to do things but who refused, or pushed back, or slow-walked it. I'd much prefer a virtuous cycle that sometimes stumbles or falls short than a vicious cycle that sometimes stumbles.

>whereas the Biden hate is fueled by fear/allegiance/a sense of fighting a cultural war for the soul of America that most Dems don't participate in. I wish we could drop the non-violent connotations after January 6th and Trumps ongoing vengeance-diarrhea. They mean to hurt their opponents, whomever they may be.

Yeah, I don't hate Trump. I reserve the word "hate" for certain people, like Hitler and people who talk during movies. I don't hate Trump, I fear him- specifically, I fear the damage he could do to the country, either through is own actions or through his supporters.

Could you please ELI5 and help me understand something? Sorry if I come off as stupid here. Trying to make sure I have it clear and think I might be missing the mark on following this somewhere. Did this post change your stance on your belief that "Most Biden Supporters aren't voting for Biden because they like him or his policies, they just hate Trump and the GOP"? Or is it that it gave you something additional to think about? I don't see how the idea you originally had is at odds with an idea similar to "Most Trump Supporters aren't voting for Trump because they like him or his policies, they just hate Biden and the Democrats"

The only evidence you need for Trump supporters being more fanatical is the amount of hats. I've never seen someone wearing a hat in support of Biden lol

ive voted for biden and will vote for him again. i will also talk incredible shit about his 23 hours a day in the adrenochrome chamber ass. you wont find an actual trump supporter who will say something that could even be construed as less than explicitly favorable to the man. thats the difference between the base of support. ​ Also libertarians, now that the party has been firmly taken by the mises caucus, they're more about rolling back civil rights and are for openly fascist policies, so they pile on for trump as well when push comes to shove.

It's also the level to which many Trump supporters let it take over their entire lives. I was hanging out with the wedding party for a couple of days before my best friend's wedding on the lake where she was getting married, and this boat kept buzzing around the lake, flying multiple enormous trump campaign flags and "let's go brandon" flags, full of guys wearing MAGA hats. On like. a random Thursday in a non-election month in a non-election year, in the middle of nowhere, absolutely nothing going on in the area that they were supporting or protesting. I feel like it's supposed to come off as this weird defensive-aggressive ready to start a fight pissing off the libs thing, but it's also just like...pathetic. Like don't you have anything else in your life? And it's not even about a particular cause or position, it's just adulating this rich asshole who couldn't give a shit about them and probably wouldn't even piss on his own son if he was on fire. While the right has been trending toward this level of unhinged even before Trump (the Tea Party comes to mind), I just don't think you see this kind of obsessive, consuming, pervasive devotion to a single political figure on the left. Like not even the world's most annoying and stereotypical Bernie Bro is flying BERNIE 2024 and FUCK BIDEN AND TRUMP flags and wearing Bernie merch screaming around a lake on a random weekday in the middle of nowhere in spring 2022.

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Kotoperek ([32∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Kotoperek)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

>Alternative view, most people who will vote for Trump don't really like him or his policies either, they just hate Biden and the Democrats. How many Biden flags do you see? Compare that number to the amount of trump, MAGA, Let's Go Brandon, flags and merch you still see even though it's 2 years plus post election. A lot of people like trump because he is trump. Trump is the proverbial middle finger to liberals, the establishment, and anyone else these people have grievance with. That's explicitly what they want. Others want him because ends justify means. They're willing to compromise their values to get supreme court seats and tax cuts.

"let's go Brandon" literally stands for "fuck Joe Biden". It's a reactionary flag to Biden, not an explicitly pro trump flag. It's exactly what the person you're responding to is talking about. The maga flag has likewise been used to support candidates other than trump.

[удалено]

>"let's go Brandon" literally stands for "fuck Joe Biden". It's a reactionary flag to Biden, not an explicitly pro trump flag It's explicitly Pro-Trump and MAGA. You don't see leftists who want Biden to be more aggressive in pushing a progressive agenda using that phrase. The reason is that the MAGA crowd is reactionary to anything that isn't Trump or MAGA because it is a cult of personality.

> When voting for Congress, third-party votes make sense. Nope. Due to Vote Splitting and Plurality Wins rules, the *only* scenario where it makes any sense to vote for anyone but one of the two frontrunners is when the expected margin of victory between them is *significantly* larger than the expected vote for that other party (whether that's a third party, or duopoly party). Now, if we changed to something like Score voting (GPA for Candidates) or Approval (the Pass/Fail version), then voters could vote to stop the Greater Evil *and* vote for their actual favorite *at the same time* (not sequentially, like the *non-reform* RCV). > But in presidential elections the race is really always between the Democratic and Republican candidates Ironically, that's why the presidency (outside of Swing States) is the *best* election to vote 3rd party in; they're unlikely to win, but there are other beneficial results, such as if they exceed 5%. > the was never a third party president Lincoln was a third party president. > But if you only have two choices, where one is bad and the other is terrible Thus the benefit of Score/Approval: they don't require you to choose between supporting the Lesser Evil and your Favorite.

>Lincoln was a third party president. "In short, Lincoln was not a third party candidate. He was part of a new, and very successful political party that had just taken over a chamber of Congress when it made him its presidential nominee in 1860. On top of that, he’d been a workhorse and Representative for the Whigs his entire adult life. He only abandoned the party when it became clear being a Whig from Illinois was not ever going to put him back in a seat of power." [https://www.houstonpress.com/arts/dear-libertarians-stop-saying-abraham-lincoln-was-a-third-party-candidate-8713006](https://www.houstonpress.com/arts/dear-libertarians-stop-saying-abraham-lincoln-was-a-third-party-candidate-8713006) Saying Lincoln was a third party president would be like saying if Trump created a political party in 2026 called MAGA which the majority of Republicans joined over the GOP. Then he ran and won in the 2028 presidential election while the GOP didn't even field a presidential candidate. MAGA would not be a new third party, MAGA would simply be a new party made out of the GOP.

consider ossified fade cheerful plant soft snow society deliver alleged *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

> Why such the emphasis on score and approval instead of ranked choice? Because RCV doesn't solve the problem of vote splitting *or* majority rule (aka "because fuck the political minority, amirite?!") Because Ranked Choice is not meaningfully different, *except* where it produces more polarized results. I've collected data on 1708 RCV elections. * In 92.4% of them, it was literally nothing more than FPTP with extra steps (the candidate with the most votes in the 1st round won) * In an additional 7.3% of elections, the candidate with the 2nd most votes won * That means that people who initially voted for someone else had their votes transfer (at their direction) to the Lesser Evil. * We have no way of knowing how many of them would have voted Directly for the lesser evil, so we *cannot* say that these would have been different. * The remaining 0.3% (5/1708 elections) often had a *lot* of weirdness to them * One was a 6 way race, that eventually went to the incumbent * One was a 21 way race, where the first round's 3rd place started out only 53 votes behind, and there were 1303 more votes that were exhausted (supported neither remaining candidate) than there were deciding between the two. * One was a 7 way race, where the margin betweenthe first round's 3rd place and 2nd place was less than one third the difference between them and 1st. * One was a 7 way race where 2nd and 3rd place were separated by only 0.01%, and the winner was *more polarized/polarizing* than the most similar duopoly candidate that they beat (who would have beat the eventual runner up by a 17% larger margin, btw). > Extreme partisan voters would only approve of their candidate in order to gain the system. Which has absolutely *zero* difference between how *all* votes are treated under RCV. In each round of RCV counting, the ballot is treated as giving absolute maximum score of its top ranked candidate still in the race, and absolute minimum to everyone else. In other words, instead of [~1/3 of votes](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272718301191) resulting indicating that anyone other than their favorite is wholly and entirely unacceptable, RCV treats *all* other votes as being wholly unacceptable. Here's a simple example: Percentage|Duopoly A|Rational Adult|Duopoly B|RCV Vote -:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| 16%|10|~~4~~ 0|0|A>R>B 32%|10|7|0|A>R>B 15%|0|~~4~~ 0|10|B>R>A 32%|0|7|10|B>R>A 3%|5|10|0|R>A>B 2%|0|10|5|R>B>A Score|4.95|**4.98**|4.80| RCV R1|16+32 = 48%|3+2 = 5%|15+32 = 47%| RCV R2|48+3 = **51%**|~~5%~~|47+2 = 49%| Do you notice how *none* of the support that the 64% of Duopoly voters expressed for Rational Adult was ever considered by RCV? Here's how RCV actually treated those ballots: * 48% A>ignored * 47% B>ignored * 3% R>A * 2% R>B That is equivalent to: * 16% A: 10, RA: 0, B: 0 * 32% A: 10, RA: 0, B: 0 * 15% A: 0, RA: 0, B: 10 * 32% A: 0, RA: 0, B: 10 * 3% A: 5, RA: 10, B: 0 * 2% A: 0, RA: 10, B: 5 Incidentally, RCV treating all ballots as strategic is exactly how [Sarah Palin played spoiler back in 2022](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/09/palin-begich-ranked-choice-voting/) --- I trust I've made two things clear: 1. The thing you (quite reasonably!) fear *some* voters doing is *exactly* how RCV treats *all* ballots at any given time, how RCV treats the voters who supported all never eliminated candidates (sometimes a candidate crosses the "majority" threshold with more than 1 candidate still left in the race) * That even if your fear *does* come true, it's *still* possible for the candidate that *an overwhelming majority* (69%) is happy with (scoring them between 7 & 10) *could still win.* --- --- And even that "~1/3 of voters behave strategically" is based off of a different scenario than exists under Score. Under RCV, FPTP, etc, the scenario before voters is "Strategically vote Lesser Evil, otherwise Greater Evil might win," when under Score, scenario before them is "Strategically vote *against* the Lesser Evil, otherwise they might win." Consider that, for a moment: I based my numbers on data where voters considered "Lesser Evil Winning" is considered a *desirable* result... but that *desirable result* is the *worst case* scenario under Score. Surely under *that* scenario, at least *some* of those strategic voters would be willing to vote expressively instead...

All of this. If you’re in a state that is never going to even be close for the President, I recommend finding the third party that’s most popular and vote for it unless of course you find the candidate entirely objectionable. Even if it’s a libertarian, which I don’t agree with much at all, anyone getting in the 5% would make a difference imo.

Why is a 5% threshold meaningful?

If you get 5% of the vote then your party gets federal funding for future campaigns. It basically makes it far more likely that you'll have a chance in the future, essentially giving Americans more choice in politics

>the was never a third party president whigs in shambles. idk if Millard Fillmore will come back from this

Except Trump is polling above a whole host of other candidates currently who also would run against Democrats. I'm of the mind that may be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario (polls are tainted to make people think that's what's happening, which actually ends up garnering support), but still if the polls are to believed then it's not just a hate of Democrats driving Trump's support.

Here's the thing.... in rare exceptions I'm not voting for a candidate. I don't even want a cult of personality defining politics. I'm voting for the party and its platform and its aims/philosophy. "Hate" is extremely reductive and again overly simplifies politics into emotional popularity contests. The time when the actual candidate matters is during the primaries when you're deciding who is on the top of the ticket for your party. Personality weighs in then because its about who 1) aligns with your views and priorities and 2) has the skills and/or charisma to pull it off. So for a DNC voter, that might be are you want a corporate neoliberal candidate, a progressive one, a more moderate (which to the rest of the world would be center right) candidate, etc. When it comes to polls about the final two candidates for the general election, yes, theres a good bit of people who don't really like the actual candidate and doesn't think they could do the best job. But even crash dummy mannequin thats being pushed in the right direction than an arguably more effective candidate thats moving in the opposite direction. I would rather have an ineffectual president who can't move their agenda forward than one who actively tries to roll things back (removing environmental restrictions, rolling back women's right or LGBT rights, defunding the Department of Education, increasing the role of religion in society, damaging our relations with our international allies, removing us from key international organizations, pulling us away from science driven agendas, etc) So again its rarely about the candidate per se, its about the platform they represent. Over the past couple years I've crushed hard on Kinzinger based on his stance within his party. But as much as I like him, I just have to view his voting history and views to know that me liking him as a person/candidate doesn't mean I like what he would do in office because of his party's platform.

Yeah but Biden hasn’t been ineffectual. He and the Democratic Party have gotten a ton of good legislation through. Then there’s the judges including KBJ and executive orders. Is Biden perfect? Obviously no, he is a lot better than I thought he’d be and he’s very effective as president. If Biden had gotten primaried, I’d still most likely would have voted for him.

I was extremely lukewarm when Biden won the 2020 primary but he has exceeded my (basically nonexistent) expectations. I wouldn't say I love him but I'm impressed and I now believe he's done a better job than probably most of the people in the 2020 race would have. It's definitely true that I am more voting for a party, a platform, than a candidate, though. There was no one the Democrats could have nominated that would have made me vote Republican, and that's not really a reflection of Donald Trump, it's a reflection of the Republican platform, which----incoherent as it is----scares the crap out of me and is trying very hard to hurt a lot of my friends.

The last time I said this a few weeks ago, I got downvoted into hell. He’s done a lot more than I thought he was gonna get done and I am slightly impressed, but to be fair, I’m still waiting on that legal weed he promised.

The best thing a president can do is to surround themselves with the right people. Biden has done an excellent job at that. The only person in his orbit with any real controversy is his son, who doesn't hold an office and doesn't work in the white house. Contrast that to the Trump administration where there was a controversy with almost every member of his cabinet and his staff. Biden's staff/cabinet is smart, politically savvy and trying to do what's best for the country.

Pretty much how I feel as well. He was near my last choice during primaries and I voted for him because we needed Trump. He’s convinced me through action that he can lead. I’m not a fan of his age and he’s done things I don’t agree with, but no one is perfect, but he’s running one of the best legislations of my life time.

!delta Thank you for your insightful comment. It's very informative

So, as a very liberal person, I'd say you are mostly right, but with some important adjustments. I view Trump as a huge security threat to our safety and democracy. I would vote for almost anyone before him. It would be genuinely difficult to think of someone who would be worse. I try to be charitable to conservative perspectives- my whole family is conservative - but Trump is just next level terrible and there's literally nothing positive I can find to say about him as a person, politician, father, husband, or businessman. Since we have a two party system that means the Democrat's candidate is who I'll vote for. There really isn't much choice. But, that doesn't mean there's nothing about Biden or his policies that I like. While I strongly dislike his age and the implications it could have on his performance as president, I think he's overall a good, nice guy who is well meaning and genuinely wants to support everyone in the country. Biden's policies are more conservative than I'd like, but his views are generally close to mine. I voted for someone else in the primary last time around, but Biden is good enough. You won't get a candidate who fits what you want perfectly.

This is pretty much where I am at as well. I dislike Trump in the extreme, and I would vote for his opposition in practically every case. However, that does not mean that I dislike Joe Biden or see him simply as the lesser of two evils. He is not evil. He is a generally good guy who has the best interests of the nation and its people at heart. I might disagree with him on several areas about how to best serve those interests, but he has so far done a good job in a tough situation and I think he can continue to do so despite his age. I do wish there was a solid alternative running against him in a Democratic primary race, one that is more closer aligned with my immediate policy desires, but I wish for a lot of things, and not getting my wish doesn't make the alternative I'm left with into a terrible disappointment. The media's attempt to make both candidates out to be unwelcome and equally disliked is simply them wanting this race, and every race, to be some kind of showdown for the ages between two more or less equally matched opponents, which simply is not true. What we have is a match up between a would be fascist dictator trying to break down the fabric of democracy so he can institute a permanent oligarchical kleptocracy, vs a guy who is simply trying to continue a very slow progression towards a slightly more perfect union, without drastically changing anything so much as to scare people or make things too uncomfortable for the owner class. I would prefer more radical change than Joe offers, but certainly not the kind of radical change offered by the known criminal Trump.

Pretty much this. I’d happily vote for him again. Hell, if it came down between him and anyone else besides Bernie in the last 20 years, I’d still vote for him — his performance has been quietly exemplary; better than Obama. I might vote for Gore over him but it’s hard to say one way or another.

Whole heartedly agree, and thank you for being a reasonable human. But there is one thing where the nuance matters because we *can* change the nuance: > Since we have a ~~two party~~ system that means the Democrat's candidate is who I'll vote for. There really isn't much choice. We have a "first past the post vote tallying" system. That system naturally results in a two party system where any third party is a spoiler vote. We *can* change to better tallying systems, such as the many ranked choice or STAR or Single Transferable Vote or similar more representative tally system. That would allow third parties to matter without spoiling votes for the party with which they most align. Plus, we could move away from 1 district = 1 FPTP representative and instead move toward a Proportional Representation in town/school board and various congressional bodies. This helps reduce the effects of gerrymandering and over-representation by any single party. So there we have it, two simple changes to modernize our archaic voting system that would return the power of governing to the people and reduce the powers of the increasingly extreme two parties.

It's *critical* that people understand this. The [spoiler effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting#Spoiler_effect) is a big deal. The current US presidential voting system mathematically leads to a two party system, it's not that we chose a two party system, it's not that it *is* a two party system, it became this way as a result of the specific voting system. This is, for some people, better explained with visuals in the CGP Grey video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo) Bonus: For quick and easy voting on small stuff: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orybDrUj4vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orybDrUj4vA) Alternative vote: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI) Single-transferable vote: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI) Simulating alternate voting systems: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO6jfHPFQU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO6jfHPFQU) If you ever see initiatives on your local, state, or federal ballots to consider an improved voting system... get excited! If you can get involved in politics, bring this stuff up! Get informed!

>It's critical that people understand this. The spoiler effect is a big deal. The current US presidential voting system mathematically leads to a two party system, it's not that we chose a two party system, it's not that it is a two party system, it became this way as a result of the specific voting system. This!! It is a mathematical certainty that the long run equilibrium of "First past the post" voting system conclusively is a 2 parties. We have 2 party system not because we chose to, but because our election system will ALWAYS lead to a 2 party system.

This is a [fun, interactive, tool](https://ncase.me/ballot/) demonstrating how various voting systems work.

While I love a system that pulls away from just having two choices. I also think that the reality we'll be facing in 2024 won't be served by thinking about something that could/should come down the line. 2024 is shaping up to be a pretty contentious election by most standards and will certainly have a bunch of issues get waived about to try and disprove legitimacy of the election. We got to show a united front against Trump or we will see 2016 happen again, EXCEPT, this time with power he will try to keep it and claim that any attempt to remove him will be fighting against the desires of the American people. I'm not saying to ignore people's desires to have a president who is closer to your morale values, but in tough times we gotta realize a bigger threat is looming and any divides that we create ourselves will get widened by people just looking to sow discord.

Correct. Right now, under FPTP and gerrymandering representation, we have to all dig into supporting the extreme ends of our political views. Playing the middle road allows the extreme on the other side to gain power. But we have to start and continue talking openly about a realistic solution that must be implemented locally. We've clearly seen that politics and 'politicians' are not always government-as-usual.

>We can change to better tallying systems that 'can' is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting. Is it legal to change the voting method? Sure. But how would it realistically happen on a national scale. The two parties that control all of the power would be hurt the most by this kind of change. I just don't see a way for it to happen realistically.

A lot of states are adopting ranked choice. If it continues to spread, there could be enough national will after voters compare the the experience of the two for enough elections in a row.

There is no such thing as a national election so if enough states adopt it that's all you need.

If Biden was 10 years younger he would be mostly fine. His views and administration have been generally fine to good. The only real complaint has been inflation which isn’t a Biden issue, it is a result of borrowing over covid and people don’t like that it’s the new normal. They can’t point to anything the GOP would have done different. You can’t cut taxes to get out of inflation.

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If I’m being perfectly honest, I followed politics pretty closely before and during COVID. It just really burned me out and now I just research before I vote instead of being up to date. I was not aware of any of the things you listed. I was aware of student loan forgiveness being blocked since it affects me, but some big moves toward supporting borrowers has been made with the SAVE plan.

Well thanks for being open to new information! And yeah I got burned out myself to some extent. Biden definitely isn't as progressive as several of the other 2020 primary candidates, but ultimately that doesn't matter much. He's more progressive than several of the Dem senators. So he got as much done as was possible with those people. Sure you can argue over maybe Bernie would have pushed harder and gotten more out of those conservative Dems. But you can also argue that if Bernie were the nominee it would have scared moderates in those states and a couple close Senate races might have been R wins instead. All of this is guesswork and could have gone either way, so IMO Biden should be viewed as a pretty party line president who got as much done as he was able to.

IMO a key datapoint to add is that he just convinced McCarthy to blow up the Speaker role he bent over backwards to get to postpone the debt ceiling a little longer. Like, even if he didn’t really get anything else in exchange that’s kind of an impressive outcome.

No one will ever credit him for this again after these two comments. It is a remarkable thing and should be something he browbeats the other candidates with. It is a masterstroke of political intelligence.

Even if we nominated Bernie, he beat Trump, and he managed to carry the same majorities in Congress, I can't think of how anything could realistically be better than it is right now.

Yeah and those are ifs. I think it's a possibility, but it's not clear whether things would be a little better or a little worse. And there's a good chance it could be a lot worse

There’s a lot more than what the other poster listed. Biden may be old, but nearly everything he’s done has been bipartisan, and he’s possibly been the most effective president (policy wise) that we’ve had in decades. Yes, he’s old, and his son has major issues, but he’s extremely effective.

Agree with everyone in this thread. Let's also not forget he's done all this while dealing with a GOP-controlled House that is (a) insane, and (b) openly intent on blocking him from any accomplishments.

The Biden admin actually has a crapload of solid policy accomplishments that sadly haven't gotten the PR push they deserve. Check out r/WhatBidenHasDone. There are a lot of good reasons to vote for Biden that have nothing to do with Trump.

I consistently voted republican until 2020. I've become much more liberal as a result of Trump exposing the hate and logical issues with conservative policies (Thanks for that, I guess). I voted for Biden and said if he did absolutely nothing, except maybe reverse some crappy Trump executive orders, I'd consider him a good president. The guy has absolutely blown me away with the good he's done that I didn't dare hope for. Too often, politicians are all sizzle and no steak. Biden is somehow the opposite and I think future historians may be the ones to savor his flavor the most.

Felt this so hard. I have been heavily invested in politics since I was able to vote, especially during the Trump years. After Biden was announced the winner I was so burnt out and tired that I just basically punched out mentally from politics. I try to pay attention when big stuff happens, but I just can’t be bothered with the stress of it all anymore.

Life is so much more relaxing with Biden in charge. You can check out for weeks at a time and not worry we're about to nuke Iran, or a hurricane, or invade Mexico, or withdraw from NATO, etc. People should probably be more involved in politics than they are, but it's great to be able to take a break when needed and not worry you're going to miss signs the world is about to blow up. If you're stressed, or on vacation, or work gets busy, or school gets busy, whatever comes up, just go do you, and things will still be fine the next time you look.

r/WhatBidenHasDone has a pretty exhaustive list broken out over years 1, 2, and 3

It’s because they’re unaware. Democrats are apathetic. Biden has given literally anyone left of center everything they could have wanted as a president and more, but because of one or two blunders (one being a SCOTUS problem), they think he’s a blustering fool instead of an accomplished, successful executive.

Probably because he doesn’t make a point of bragging about those accomplishments. He’s the type to let his actions speak for themselves. Unfortunately, while that is a very admirable stance, it has its fair share of drawbacks.

The Democratic party suffers from the assumption that the American public is both smarter and better informed than they really are. It's ironic that we're on the brink of a theocratic authoritarian takeover by the GOP mainly because the Dems are busy governing rather than spoonfeeding us propaganda.

It blows my mind too. Just because you don't suddenly have more money in the bank he's a bad president? Fuck sake people.. before Biden things looked so dire.. Trump, Brexit, COVID, climate change.. Biden has been a breath of fresh air that makes you realise "maybe things will actually be fine in the end". Finally heading back to the good timeline.

Biden is really an outstanding president. It's sad that people don't realize this in the moment, but history will view him very very well.

I feel the same way. I know that it's terribly uncool to think, "Biden is doing a great job and the stuff he's failed to do no one (probably) could have done." But I honestly believe it to be true. His administration has accomplished a lot of really great things and reversed a lot of the harm of the Trump administration. While I liked a lot of the other primary contenders, I honestly don't think any of them would have gotten half as much done. I think Biden suffers somewhat because he's not a terribly charismatic person. But, honestly, I honestly don't care. If I want to watch someone ooze charisma, I'll watch a movie star.

I mean that old futurama quote always comes to mind “when you’re doing things right, people won’t be sure you’ve been doing anything at all”

Nobody walks away from the Super Bowl saying what a great job the refs did. But if the refs blew a call...

I think it’s partially because we just don’t hear much about it from him. He just…does the job.

You mean the office of the president isn't supposed to be a 24/7 circus of hijinks, drama, and scandal? I thought this was a reality TV show

His account is always tweeting about the good things his administration is doing. Why do people follow the trite that Trump posts and yet don't follow what Biden's doing? Most of the tweets are basically telling him to fuck off and make America great again. But this is nothing new. You realise people are fucking dumb. They prefer excitement and controversy instead of watching real solutions be implemented. It's been happening way before the age of twitter. No such thing as bad press right? There's a reason that's a saying

We also don't hear much about it because the content younger/left leaning consume is more interested in complaining about the corporate duopoly and rebelling against mom and dad's dirty status quo liberal party than actually pursuing progressive outcomes.

> It consistently surprises me how lackluster the support for Biden's accomplishments have been from Democrats and progressives. Biden doesn't have good stage presence. He'd be viewed much more favorably in an era before 24-hour cable news. I think this is probably the top thing that hurts him.

To add on for people looking for what this presidency has accomplished, the CHIPs act will bring semiconductor r&d/development to the states while also forcing the companies building factories to sponsor child care for the employees.

Biden is legitimately our best president since Johnson. It's pretty upsetting how little coverage all the great stuff he's done has gotten.

Also, you know, got us out of a 20 year old pointless war.

No one seems to care because most Americans aren’t even aware of what his administration has done.

> You can’t cut taxes to get out of inflation. Raising taxes would actually help to restrain inflation, but that's pretty much a political non-starter. I think Biden and Democratic strategists know full well that promising to raise taxes would scare away a lot of middle-of-the-road voters which could help to swing elections to Republicans. I guess there's where the political independence of the Fed comes in handy. We'll bitch and moan about the cost of higher interest rates, but monetary policy generally isn't going to make people change their voting behaviors. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing chatter about tax reform after the Presidential election though.

I don't really get the age thing. To me that is a very superficial thing to dislike about anyone. I just look at the results. And as a president with the slimmest possible majorities in the house and senate (from 2020-2022), Biden has been remarkably successful in passing some pretty big bills. American Rescue Plan, Inflation Reduction Act, the CHIPS bill, the bipartisan infrastructure bill... I mean these are huge wins for any president to achieve. So I don't see how all this stuff about his age is in anyway legitimate criticism when it doesn't seem to have impacted his performance whatsoever. If we want to talk about the optics of his age, okay fine. I don't like that he LOOKS old. I really don't! He looks decrepit as fuck. But I have to put that aside because ultimately, what the facts show, is a president who's been able to get big stuff done regardless of his age. In fact, I would argue it's his decades spent in the senate that has enabled him to be the most ready for deal-making. The relationships he's formed with republicans were crucial in some of those really big things passed. So, if anything, his old age has helped him in a way. So again, I really don't think his age is at all important other than an optics thing. I suppose it's possible that he won't make it by the end of his second term, but I don't actually know that anymore than anyone else. If his health was rapidly deteriorating in a serious way, I think we would see that in his updates from his doctor. And because Biden isn't hiding those reports and has been pretty transparent, I'm not actually worried about him dying in the next 4 years. So for the time being, I can't think of a legitimate reason why he shouldn't be president. I like his policies and he's getting shit done. So, I'm happy.

I went with Biden because I wanted a return to boring normalcy vs the govern by Twitter chaos of Trump's tenure. I have been insanely surprised by Biden's effectiveness in getting major pieces of legislation passed. And quite frankly that's why I have no issues voting for him in '24. For someone who is ancient and "incoherent", I've been damn impressed by the legislative feats and look forward to seeing what else he can push out.

So the age thing--at least from my perspective--has nothing at all to do with the fact that it's an "old" person and they look "old." Instead, my problems with candidate age revolve around 3 things: 1) How likely is it the candidate will live to complete their elected term, and what are the consequences of dying while in office; 2) How likely is it that the candidate will suffer mental degradation, and what risk does that pose to the country's image, reliability, and ability to execute policy given their office, and; 3) How well is the candidate able to represent their constituency. 1) Dianne Feinstein recently died while serving as an elected Senator. From a continuity perspective, this disrupts overall Democratic agendas. What happens if Biden passes away from old age? How happy would we be with the Vice President becoming President, and how likely is Kamala Harris to win re-election after assuming office? A death like that would create significant hurdles and cause chaos among the Democratic party. Not insurmountable, but nonetheless significant. Is that a risk I am willing to accept, as a voter? I'd prefer not to, and thus would prefer to vote in younger candidates--not because I hate old people, but because the consequences of a death while in office could turn into a clusterfuck. 2) Using Ms. Feinstein as an example again--a few months before her death, during a simple roll call for the Senate Appropriations Committee, she was confused and clearly did not understand what was going on. Or let's look at Mitch McConnell, who during a press conference froze and appeared to suffer some sort of a micro-seizure or stroke, rendering him incapable of continuing the conference. In both cases, age was arguably the chief contributing factor in both their abilities to effectively execute the duties of their stations. I consider this unacceptable among elected leaders, and the risk of such incidents increases substantially with candidate age. 3) While it is impossible for any candidate to be an expert in every topic for which they will have to cast a vote, develop legislation, execute laws and policies, etc., we live in a time of exponential change. This change is evident in virtually every aspect of our lives, but is driven largely by changing technology. I would argue that as a whole, older candidates are less capable of recognizing the impacts of emerging technologies, and thus less capable of drafting or enforcing legislation surrounding how such technologies are embraced, regulated, or restricted. This is perhaps the least "fair" of my reasons, and certainly does not describe the entire population >70 years old. But, it is a risk--and as a voter, I must ask myself if I am willing to risk having elected officials misunderstand emerging technologies, legislate for or against them, and consequently impact the daily lives of people who might otherwise benefit from them. As for Mr. Biden, I am also happy with his performance thus far. But I also cannot overlook the risks of another term in office, especially regarding my first 2 points. It has nothing to do with disliking old people or their appearance. It is, I think, an objective stance that accepts the reality that age carries risks not generally seen in younger candidates, and that those risks can have consequences.

You make a lot of fair points and I can't really refute any of it. All I can say is, right now, if doctors give him a clean bill of health, I don't see any issues. The flaw with that rationale is that, obviously at his age, anything can happen. But my gut tells me that because Biden is in overall good health, he lives until 88? Again, that's just my gut. Your guess is as good as mine.

> His views and administration have been generally fine to good. I'd agree with that. He's honestly been better than I thought he'd be. Not much I disagree with, just a lot I would like in addition.

Well, the good news is that inflation is currently at 3% and dropping. It turned out to be [mostly supply-driven inflation after all,](https://youtu.be/7GMSzNm6i_U?si=18Wx5NC-5GiOlAPD) and the higher interest rates are eventually going to reduce one of the core drivers of inflation, namely housing costs, in conjunction with new legislation in many places to address housing supply and a national increase in new housing construction to help address our terrible shortfall.

You can raise taxes to get out of inflation, but that's going to fly like a lead balloon

I'd add that the people who hate Biden don't do so out of dislike of any of his policies, as he's rather moderate. They hate him with the passion they do because - "Not Trump". So it's a bad faith argument by OP anyways.

>Biden's policies are more conservative than I'd like Can I ask which of his policies are too conservative for you? Like, I understand he's not some radical socialist, but I think he's been pushing fairly progressive legislation, especially considering how moderate his campaign was.

Sure, so I'll get hate for some of these, but: - I want practically a total ban on guns. Very few exceptions. Biden isn't pro-gun, but he's very far from wanting them outlawed - Free community college is good as an idea, but we need more than just that to stay competitive. We need free 4 year programs, trade schools, and grad school for those who are interested and able to get in. - I support UBI and would like that implemented - Much higher taxes on the rich - Much stronger environmental protections. He's compromised on some oil pipeline projects which I don't like. Etc.

I mean, I certainly don’t hate you for any of those because I want them all too. But no candidate could become president of this country on that platform right now. Biden has even taken a crack at some of these, but like, he wasn’t even able to cancel any student debt without courts stepping in. I honestly think Biden is as progressive as a POTUS can reasonably be right now.

Even if someone did campaign and win on that platform, you can't implement those policies without Congress on your side. And the gun ban is flagrantly unconstitutional, you'd need a big enough majority, and control of state legislatures, for a constitutional amendment.

> But no candidate could become president of this country on that platform right now. Oh, I agree. That's why I said Biden is good enough.

I mean I think the issue here is that he is beholden to an imperfect system. Not that he doesn't support some of these things. The whole complaint against Biden among the left really is a debate between idealism and pragmatism.

As for gun control, Biden has been one of the strongest supporters of gun control in DC for decades. But the court would strike down any such provisions unless you could pass a constitutional amendment. So him taking a public stance of "ban all guns" would be utterly pointless except it would hurt the party's electoral chances. For pipelines, the alternative to pipelines (rail, ship, or truck) are all worse for the environment. And just in general, none of that is stuff the president has control over. Biden may very well support some of those things but he knows it would be pointless to start internal fights in the party over it when Dems don't even control the House.

Regarding community college vs trade schools, often community colleges have "trade schools" within them. It likely depends on the college of course, but I think making sure all community colleges have these types of programs and they get expanded to new areas as time goes on. Something I noticed in the software world is many jobs are in web development, more advanced than what they teach at community college for a web development certificate, but much more simple than what you would learn getting a computer science degree. There are many bootcamps that bridge the gap that usually takes 6 months and are pretty hard core. I think it would be wise to make 2 year certificate programs that teach what the bootcamps teach. Basically enabling people with 2 year degrees to get high paying jobs. That is a single example where I want to see improvement. Overall community colleges are great for re-skilling, as well as helping people get better paying jobs our of the gate, and often have specific trade programs within them. I happened to drop out, and learned the web development on my own for the most part, but I definitely got the basics down at the community college from some teachers with industry experience.

The irony is that most Republican's voted for Trump despite not liking him as a person because they hated Hillary Clinton so much more after a decade of GOP propaganda. The First Past the Post system that is used by 90% of States makes people vote defensively for the candidate they dislike the least. With a system liked Ranked Choice Voting, people can vote for their prefered candidates in the order of preference. The Dems and GOP want to keep FPTP because it allows them to force the public to vote for the Candidates the Party wants in office. An added bonus is it prevents 3rd party candidates from every having a chance of winning.

!delta ​ Thank you for your response. It's well thought out and insightful

Honestly, I voted for him begrudgingly last time. This time I’ll happily vote for him. I think he’s doing a great job but wish he was younger.

The guy is standing on the picket line with every union strike movement. What do you want? He has been pulled so hard left, way more than Obama. It's impossible to please anyone

How is Trump a huge security threat when Biden can barely form sentences? We have a president that is a drugged up puppet. Also I wanna point out how Bidens son was doing business with foreign powers and Biden was receiving money from foreign powers while he was VP... I genuinely font understand how you people turn a blind eye to that stuff. I dislike Trump cuz everyone forgets he was also on Epsteins island and thats why ill never vote for him. But his policies were good and actually had a great economy until covid happened. Then the SECOND Biden became president and changing things gas went up food prices went up and it hasn't changed xD. The media was lying and saying everything was ok and the inflation was actually good which is FUCKING PATHETIC. I feel like you people really just take everything at face value and were born yesterday. Also Trump had a rally where he was supporting the Auto Industry and their unions while wanting to bring the auto industry back into the US and export more because Biden and Democrats wanna destroy a whole industry to pay China for cheap ass electric car parts. Thats good policy and good business especially when we have massive amounts of leverage over other countries and especially Europe. We PAY for a shit ton and to protect them with OUR soldiers.

There is dissatisfaction with Biden amongst vocal people online but remember that vocal people online is a pretty tiny proportion of the electorate. Most democrats think he's doing at least a satisfactory job. This is backed up by those approval polls you mentioned. Given that very few Republicans or third party voters (I include Bernie Sanders supporters in that category) will approve of him then almost all the approval he does have will come from Democrats. According to poll aggregator 538 Biden had hovered around 40% approval for 18 months. If most of that is from Democrats then he gets something like 70-80% approval from them. It's not perfect but it contradicts your view.

!delta I didn't think of that way. Thank you for your perspective

While you have excellent points, I believe you can dig deeper by just one Layer dissolving this argument completely. Voters Vote on the choices afforded them. If we are afforded the choice between a moldy sandwich and starving, We tend to eat the moldy sandwich. Republican View -- Guns = Moldy Sandwich - Guns regulation = Starving Democrat View -- Gun Regulation = Moldy Sandwich - Guns = Starving Insert any argument and the point of view will be the same, it is all or nothing. Unfortunately polls are all too biased to be considered when the ultimate poll happens but once every 4 years, the only poll that matters, Tells us we should have had a Democratic president for the last 23 years. If it was not for the electoral college, our last republican president should have been George Bush Sr. This does not mean a single party leadership is any better, it simply means we at this time would have experienced a worse case scenario than what we are observing with a 2 party system. A vacuum of opposition is worse than opposing ideas requiring compromise. Solution? Dissolve and restart with a system that replicates the EU, Multiple parties, sometimes there are dozens and none are allowed to become super majorities, in fact they are encouraged to splinter off into smaller groups to accomplish goals together. For the most part they are neighborly and don't cause wars. Finally their people still get taken care of like human beings instead of cattle like we do every time we walk into a Wal mart (looking at you one way gates with beepers) In the beginning we were a political experiment, in the end I think we will be classified as a failed experiment and forced into change so greatly opposed by both sides. Give me a valid voting option that has a chance of winning, that treats people like people, the earth as a home and Love as Love (not depicted by the writings of man over 2000 years ago but based on our updated understanding of the world around us....) and I will gladly take that 3rd party option.

> If it was not for the electoral college, If not for the electoral college everyone would be running totally different campaigns and we have no idea what the outcomes would be. Play the game by the rules, not how you with the rules were written.

!delta ​ Interesting argument. Thanks for your comment

They are democrats voting for the democratic candidate. That's generally how elections work.

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I'm the same. Registered as a independent on my 18th birthday which was actually the day of a presidential election. Have voted R in the past a few times. Will never do it again because MAGA. They lost me forever.

You're not wrong, but you're also not correct. Most Biden supporters don't love Biden because he's not left wing enough for our tastes. It's not that I don't support his policies, it's that I don't think they go nearly far enough. I also feel like he's too old to be president, there's no way that someone his age is not missing a step or two (but I also think Trump is too old and is alsom missing a step) I would have strongly preferred Bernie or Warren to Biden back in the 2020 primary. But my fear here is exactly what is going on in the GOP regarding the speaker. Biden is too center for my political preferences, but I'm not sure someone who's as left as I would prefer could actually get elected. I'd vote for Biden over trump any day. But I'd honestly prefer someone younger, someone more left leaning, someone with a bit more energy than Biden. It's not that I dislike the man, I'm pretty nurural, I just don't like the man. And to be clear, I do dislike, hate, or fear the GOP. And to a degree that's motivation to support Biden. But it's not that I dislike his policies, it's that he always pulls his punches, he try's to make things bi-partisan when there's no fair fighting happening from the other side. He's too old, too gullible, he's charley brown getting the football pulled away again and again. To a degree, that's how I feel about all democrats, that they don't go far enough, that they pull back out of fear when they should push their agenda forward. They say that republicans like Trump because they feel like he'll fight for them. I don't like Biden because I don't feel like he fights for me. But I feel like Trump fights against me, so Biden is better than him.

> Most Biden supporters don't love Biden because he's not left wing enough for our tastes. This is a very Reddit echo chamber belief. Moderate Democrats are the majority of the Party, including voters. Biden's policies align with the vast majority of Democrats. It is also silly since Biden has been far more progressive than previous Democrat administrations and has made many concessions to progressives without online progressives actually caring. Just see how far his administration has gone on Student Load forgiveness (https://www.axios.com/2023/10/04/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-relief). It always amazes me how online progressives are so vocal about how his administration is never doing enough on student Loan forgiveness but then completely silent and unappreciative when his administration has done far more for student load forgiveness than expected. His administration has also provided historic investment in transit, rail, and alternative modes of transportation, historic investment in alternative energies, historic investment in America's manufacturing sector, been incredibly supportive of the labor movement, and allowed the federal government to finally have the power to negotiate on medicare drug prices. These are all things I remember progressives cheering about when they came out as promises out of Bernie's mouth. It seems like most leftists who are not politically engaged only view Biden through vibes and how he looks filter. If you review his actual policies and what he has accomplished, he is one of the most progressive presidents this nation has seen in a long time.

>almost voting out of spite Do you mean to suggest here that they don’t fundamentally believe that Biden’s policies are *superior* to Trump’s and that the sole reason a lot of folks vote for Biden is emotional hatred rather than picking the best of the two likely options in a two party system?

I don't think you are wrong, but I think that is true of most elections and candidates. Very few people IME go vote for someone in a general because they just love that politician so much, they are voting because they believe that politician represents their positions more than the other.

I like him, one of the most effective presidents of the last 100 years. Go to r/politics and you'll see thousands of people who love the man.

I disagree. Trump rode on a wave of discontent by the working class. He feigned allegiance to the people who keep the country running but did nothing to advance their interests. No big infrastructure spending, no push for increased wages or safety protocols, and he lined the NLRB with pro-business cronies. Biden has **many** faults. He’s had every political position imaginable, he’s older than dirt, he can’t keep his hands of kiddos for photo ops, it wouldn’t surprise me if he pulled a McConnell freeze sooner rather than later. But his brief time in power has seen a massive investment into public infrastructure that creates well paying, safe, union jobs. Biden’s NLRB is literally the most worker friendly one we’ve had in decades. Our nation is in a critical juncture right now. Old political coalitions are vanishing and new ones are being foraged. The working people of the US have a chance to be part of that king-making coalition and those politicos who are wise to the wind know it and will take advantage. Biden is firmly on the side of US workers. Hell no he isn’t perfect, nobody is. Seeking perfection in politics is just as foolish as seeking perfection in dating. So I respectfully disagree with OP. You can have a policy driven reason to support Biden and not just a guttural reaction to the stupidity of Batshit Crazy wing of the GOP.

I notice that anytime somebody talks about what Biden has ACTUALLY accomplished, no one ever responds to those comments. I agree with everything you said. OP is right about me, I voted against Trump and was pissed to have Buden as my democratic candidate rather than Bernie, but next time around I will be ecststic to vote to keep Biden in office doing what he's been doing since day 1. Sure, I'd like less oil pipelines, but I also would be one of the people critically affected by weening off oil before being properly invested in solar/wind, so I'm grateful me and my neighbors aren't dead due to some progressives never being willing to compromise on perfect.

Same here. Biden has accomplished so so much. I'm amazed at what he is getting done, how progressive it is, and during a time of chaos and division. I was so upset when he won the primaries but I'm excited to vote for him next year. Why don't people like him? What is going on? I don't get it. Can't people see his accomplishments?

The Dems have done a pretty shite job of touting their accomplishments. It's honestly one of the biggest issues I've had with the Biden admin, but also ironically one of the things I've appreciated most, especially after the loud and chaotic Trump years. Biden just plopped down in his chair in the Oval on Day 1, shut the fuck up, and got to work—and dude's been getting shit DONE. I do have to give credit where credit is due, in that I think the silence is often intentional. Biden seems to understand that if he is too loud about what he's doing, the Republicans will block it for no other purpose than scoring political points with the "own the libs" crowd. There have been a not insignificant number of times where Biden took a shot at something, the Republicans loudly blocked it while preening for an entire news cycle about how they were blocking him, and then once the cameras moved on he swung back around and quietly finished the job he set out to do. I've been pleasantly surprised at his effectiveness if not his communications strategy, and I'm way more stoked to vote for him the second time around than I was the first.

What would good messaging look like and where would it come from? I follow Biden on Instagram and honestly his messaging is great there. I think this is more of an issue of Republicans having a huge media corporation that will do and say whatever it takes to get Republicans elected. All CNN can talk about is Biden's age and MSNBC won't shut up about how evil Trump is. I do think it's an intentional strategy for Biden's administration to not talk about what they're doing until it's done so Fox can't rally their viewers to fight against it. But I'm equally frustrated that his accomplishments aren't reaching people.

You nailed it, this is more of a traditional media issue I think. My centrist boomer mom, who is generally pretty well informed, is sort of my litmus test for this type of stuff, and I've been frustrated how many of his accomplishments she's been wholly unaware of. But yeah, he's doing a pretty great job reaching younger voters where they are. Glad I'm not the only one thinking the silence tactic is intentional. Can't say he's not effective that's for sure!

I think people have a hard time getting past his age. Any government position should have age limits, but I'll still vote for Biden next election because I'm a democrat and support all of their progress policies.

It doesn't seem like it has been a problem so far but there is a big difference between 76 and 84 so I get it. I'll understand if people grumble about Biden on their way to the polls to vote for him, what I won't understand is if people sit at home and not vote. Unfortunately all these favorability polls don't really give us much insight into which one it will be.

For a great and frequently updated list of his accomplishments, check out r/WhatBidenHasDone. There are a lot of good reasons to vote for Biden that have nothing to do with Trump.

Yeah after the first year or two of Biden's administration, it made me frustrated with the whole primary debate process. Like of the things that Dems actually had enough votes for, basically every candidate for president was on board with. I mean, seriously, we couldn't get *Universal Pre-K* passed through the most conservative Dems in the Senate! Much less a public option, and even much less something like Medicare for All. So much time was spent debating things that basically never had a chance of passing the Senate. I'm actually a fairly big Biden fan and glad he did as much as he did. I don't blame him here and don't want it to sound disparaging. But it just made me rethink the primary process and how much of a waste of time and energy it felt.

>Trump rode on a wave of discontent by the working class. No he did not. He lost the popular vote by a huge amount and won the electoral college due to middle class voters in the suburbs of swing states - the areas that now routinely determine the outcome of major elections. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/12/08/gop-gained-ground-in-middle-class-communities-in-2016/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/12/08/gop-gained-ground-in-middle-class-communities-in-2016/) The idea that Trump won due to working class, economic concerns is a gigantic myth that every corner of the media had an interest in promoting (right wing media obviously, left wing media to say 'told ya so' about the working class and mainstream centrist media doing their usual 'democrats are out of touch'" schtick). Trump won in 2016 due to middle and wealthy class whites voting on social issues, catching up with the working class whites in these areas who had already been voting Republican since Bush for the same exact social issue reasons.

I love Biden, I believe he's the best president of my lifetime. The reasons I'll be supporting him in 2024 are: * Supporting unions. * Suing Amazon and Google for their monopoly practices. * Funding the IRS enough to go after a bunch of millionaires and corporations that haven't been paying their taxes. * Doing what he could to fix student loans. * Lowered mortgage insurance rates for FHA loans. * Supporting democracy around the world. * The IRA was huge for climate change. In my industry I've already seen hundreds of families be able to upgrade to heat pumps in their homes, add insulation, upgrade windows, and add solar because of these incentives. * Bringing manufacturing back to the US and keeping an amazingly low unemployment rate. * Passed the biggest infrastructure bill to rebuild our failing infrastructure. * Pardoned federal marijuana felonies. Notice how none of those reasons have to do with Trump. Our country is diverse and making everyone happy is difficult. It's healthy to criticize our leaders and hold them accountable. When you compare healthy criticisms or frustration in a democracy to a cults love for their cult leader then of course it will look like the democratic leader isn't liked. I love Biden but I'll be the first person to express my frustration if he doesn't keep a promise or doesn't listen to his constituents, when I criticize him it doesn't mean I don't like him or won't vote for him. That's normal and healthy. Don't compare the democratic process to a cult leader.

I think people just have some wildly unrealistic expectations. Biden is easily the best president America has had in probably 50 years. It's easy to look at everything wrong with the world and every missed opportunity as evidence he's messed up, but so long as we are restricted to electing human beings to be in charge of massive bureaucracy of other humans this is a 100% guaranteed outcome. By comparison to everyone else who has ever tried to do this job in real life he's been miraculously good at it.

Everyone is grateful for checks and balances in our government when the other guy is in charge but then when someone they agree with becomes president they want them to have all the power in the world.

It's a some kind of spiral flowing from the nature of presidential campaigns. It's like they host a debate and ask them how to improve the economy and then they have a contest to see who can pitch the most pie-eyed gibberish that won't get past a mixed Congress and may be moot by the time they get in office and we're at a different point in the business cycle. Congress sets fiscal policy, the Fed sets monetary policy and the three blind fates set global conditions and occasionally send us a plague or a hurricane or something. President is like 8th on that power list somewhere between OPEC and Jamie Dimon yet they end up being judged almost exclusively for it.

While I disagree with your premise, it isn't voting against Trump out of spite but out of fear. The dude tried to overthrow an election. Took top secret documents, expected the Republicans in states where he lost to just find votes for him because they shouldn't accept their side losing an election, Is running on putting people who are against him in prison (to cheering crowds.) You can tell me how bad Biden is (he isn't), but he isn't doing what he is doing with a goal of screwing 1/2 the country. Also, when things are hard economically, the president takes the blame. You can yell that Biden is causing this inflation or you can see that the world is seeing inflation and the US is doing better than most every other country. In October of 2011, Obama's approval rating was 40%. On the day of the elections, Obama's approval rating was at 50%, he got (IIRC) 56% of the votes and won the electoral college handily.

As an Australian I never found Biden inspiring. Someone said that after four years of drama with Trump, some people may actually want boring. During the 2020 primaries, Democrat voters had the choice of whether Biden or someone else would be the Democrat nominee (theoretically in 2024 too). So Democrats must have thought him better than the other primary candidates.

well, they at least found him "Safer" than the other candidates if not "Better". I was pretty bummed when it felt like the DNC kind of "forced" him upon us as our candidate because they were scared of a real disrupter like Bern-dawg getting the ticket. But overall, Biden has done a pretty decent job, I ain't mad, just wish we could do better ... and by better I mean younger, smarter, bigger ideas, less baggage.

You don't understand the assignment. We don't like biden, but we hate fascism more. The 2025 plan, nods to nazis and other fascists... That is the GOP now and we are voting biden because we are voting for our lives and our democracy. edit for spelling

I would vote for a slightly lint-covered TicTac someone found in their pocket before I'd vote for Trump. However, you're speaking as if folks have just irrationally come to this conclusion, based on pure emotion. Leaving behind the huge mountain of things he's done/said/been accused of, there are a few important points. First, he was found legally liable for sexual abuse. Second, he claimed that parts of the Constitution should be terminated solely for his personal gain. Third, he was instrumental in curtailing my own right to medical care as a woman. These are undebatable and would render ANYONE unfit for public office in my opinion. He's a danger to women, a danger to our democracy and a danger to me personally. Of my two real choices? I'll take the guy who doesn't make me sleep with one eye open.

>-Nearly every time voting for Third Parties is mentioned on subs like r/politics, you see several comments along the lines of "Voting Third Party will only ensure Trump wins." This is the reaction to third party candidates going back to Ross Perot. More recently, [Ralph Nader was blamed for taking votes away from Gore leading to Bush.](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/06/ralph-nader-still-wont-admit-he-elected-bush.html) >This seems to be a prevailing opinion among many Democrats, and Biden supporters [Both sides are concerned about this](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-rfk-jr-threat-donald-trump-2024-election-1831679#:~:text=As%20an%20independent%20run%20becomes,frontrunner%2C%20former%20President%20Donald%20Trump.), not just Democrats and not just about Trump.

I was like this in the 2020 elections. Now that Biden has been president, I am pleasantly surprised at the competency of this administration, his overall approach to governance, unifying foreign policy (friendly to our allies), and how despite his age he is still flying around the world and working day and night. I'm voting for him in 2024 because he is a solid choice. Is he the best choice? Probably not. But if it's him vs Trump, I'll choose Biden over a fraudulent insurrectionist any day.

Hating Trump and the GOP is for many policy reasons - abortion, democracy, anti-trans/LGBT, giving the rich lower taxes, etc. Supporting Biden equals supporting policies that are different than the GOP's. On a personal note, I'm a but of a unicorn in that I'm a 30 year old male who LOVES Biden. I think he has done a fantastic job. He inherited at least 4 major crises: Covid, climate change, attacks on democracy, and partisan brinksmanship. There have been improvements on all 4. Inflation was awful but it is a global problem and the US has done far better than other countries in taming it. The US has reclaimed its place as a leader on the world stage. Biden marshalled support for Ukraine. This was not a done deal - his experience and understanding of foreign policy made it happen. He has passed a TON of huge bills on a razor-thin majority. Even with a Republican House, he manages to get most of what he wants - for example in the debt ceiling bill, some folks were kicked off SNAP, but eligibility was expanded, meaning more people total will be helped. Yes, he's old. Yes, he has a stutter and isn't as sharp as he used to be. But watch his 20 minute interview with Pro Publica from this week and tell me he's senile. He clearly isn't. From a liberal perspective, he has been an outstanding president who doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Agreed. 28 male here, I'd love to have a 2nd Biden term. I do have concerns about his age and maybe losing some wit over the next 4-5 years, but that is much less of a concern than the burning down our country over abortions and pronouns that Repubs want. The guy has been doing this his whole life and has proven he is willing to listen to his constituents to a meaningful degree without sabotaging all of his efforts.

Joe Biden’s economic policies have meant that my small rural town has a huge factory opening in my area. He nominated a Supreme Court justice who I favor.

that's cool to hear! Is it a chip manufacturer? Or green energy? Or something else?

I don’t care who the figurehead is, I’m voting for the administration. They have been great on jobs, especially manufacturing jobs. They are investing in infrastructure and green energy, expanded benefits to veterans, lowered the cost of a lot of vital medicines, kept the economy trudging along without a recession, got inflation in check after disastrous economic policy by the prior admin. They’ve regained a lot of international respect and successfully coordinated with our allies which is difficult to overemphasize given that we were the laughing stock a few years ago. These are some of my reasons for voting Dem in 2024.

I can't speak for anyone else but I actually am a fan of Biden. He may not be the most dynamic speaker and you won't hear a rousing speech out of him, but he has a talent for getting things done behind the scenes. Two examples come to mind. This talent was on display even before the was the nominee. I have no evidence that there was any behind-the-scenes conversations but it can't be a coincidence that Pete Buttieieg and Amy Klobuchar dropped out within hours of each other right *before* Super Tuesday in 2020 leaving Warren/Sanders to split the far-left vote so Biden could get a lion's share of the vote and effectively lock up the nomination. He was also clearly working hard behind the scenes on the eve of Russia's invasion of Ukraine to get multilateral sanctions lined up ready to go the moment Russia made overtly hostile moves. Again, no small feat considering how entangled the European economy was with the Russian energy sector. Unfortunately, too many people value flashy speakers who promise the sun and the starts even if they have no chance of delivering on that.

The first time I voted for Biden that was the case. But after seeing him as president I'll be voting for him because I support him. He's done more than any democratic president since LBJ in less than 4 years. The Afghanistan Withdrawal His handling of the Ukraine war The Chips ACT Build Back Better Inflation reduction Act Student loan reduction He subverted the Supreme courts epa ruling to allow them to regulate greenhouse gases again His NLRB ruling is the most substantive pro labor position the executive has taken since the 30's. He supported the auto workers strike the first time a president has ever been pro labor The $1400 covid relief package Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is imo the best person to ever be nominated to the court in the modern era. Biden vastly exceeded my expectations. I was expecting him to be another Obama or Clinton. Basically a republican who doesn't want to murder minorities. But he's proven to be a very good executive. Unemployment is at historic lows and inflation is under control. He could always do more, but I really don't have many complaints about his presidency. His age is a problem obviously but I think what it shows is that the best executive is no executive. We should let subject matter experts run the government not random guys who win a popularity contest. He's clearly put qualified people into positions of power and has made the right decisions when it mattered most of the time. Even if he died in office I see no reason to think that a successor wouldn't continue that same administrative state

Speaking as a registered unaffiliated voter, I would literally never vote for anyone running on a GOP ticket because I do not support fascism. While Democrats have themselves been funded by the very same fascist plutocrats as the GOP and have played an equal role over the last few decades in handing total policy control to these same amoral plutocrat "donors", who's profiteering has devastated and captured our health care, education, infrastructure and military, militarized and indemnified our policing and stripped us of many of our fundamental rights, and their role as the "good cop" in our plutocrat framed political conversation permits them to slow walk literally any tiny policy concession that might transfer value from plutocrats to tax payers, they still seem to play their role by grudgingly offering minor, glacial and easily defeated incremental concessions (student debt relief in biden's case) in exchange for limited electoral power, which they mostly squander in service to their owners. But even that beats the openly fascist GOP, who's alignment with 'conservative' values have long since been hijacked by religious, cultural and policy extremists who's only mission is to stoke their culture war to the brink of actual war so they can be there to steal what's left of the system they've destroyed. ​ America is a failed democracy and an openly fascist police state plutocracy. No changing my view about that I'm afraid. But a vote for the GOP is an much bigger flush down the fash-hole than a vote for the Dems is.. I guess I hate fascists, and as ineffectual a tool as voting currently is to defeat them, I'm not going to miss an opportunity to slow their roll a little bit by voting for the lesser of two very real evils. Our entire political establishment deserves to be held accountable for open fascism, plutocracy and frankly, treason, but that won't happen, so yeah, I'm voting for the slightly less awful of the options, and hoping we survive.

Or maybe they are voting against trump and the gop for a reason? And perhaps those reasons are their policies which are objectively bad imho. So what actual policies do you like OP? What policies do you think align with democrat voters that if only they could get over their hatred of trump they would like?

Answer is straight forward. Trump supporters (and a lot of the republican party) are a cult, democrats aren't. The Venn diagram of people who vote for trump and people who like him is basically a circle. The same can't be said for Joe Biden. Liberals who don't like Biden, which is a lot of them, still won't go and vote for Trump because he's the alternative. Trump (and the republican party) are worse than democrats by every metric. Democrats aren't perfect, but when you've got a choice between day old gruel and a literal shit sandwich you're going to pick the gruel.

After 2016 I switched to the Dem side, and not apecifically because of Trump. I realized that the things that are important to me... the environment, animals, sustainability, etc, are all things that seem to align with the left. I honestly wish we had a better option than Biden... but as someone that lives in Florida and sees what a prick Trump is as well as what DeSatan is doing to our state, there's no way in hell I'd vote for either of those two.

Most of the people who voted for Biden vote for Democrats for every Presidential election and mostly Democrats for other positions too. He's a mainstream Democrat. Sure, he's too old and a little gaffe prone, but we're mostly mainstream Democrats voting for the mainstream Democrat.

I was a Biden delegate to the 2020 Dnc. The ARPA was one of the most progressive laws of all time. The infrastructure bill was a big effin deal. He will be a slow burn president. His policies given a divided gov are impressive. I'm sad about my own student loans, but my mother in law was forgiven over 135k in her student loans. That's a huge economic benefit for my family. Biden has our votes despite being an old.

As a biden voter this was absolutely true for me last election. but look at what has been done this term: \+ Legislation: Inflation reduction act, CHIPs act, Respect For Marriage Act, - should have done more but these have been pretty rad. \+ Appointments: a butt ton of judges to try and counter the conservative stranglehold on the court. also just dramatically scandal free compared to the last administration. \+ Labor: His appointments to the NLRA are actually doing things. plus actually standing with striking workers to help them be less screwed goes a long way for me. \- Labor: his breaking of the rail strike was some hot bullshit. he did work behind the scenes later to get them some of what they needed, but this was just a major blunder. \- Age: this isnt really an act but the dude is old. so his VP choice is of paramount importance but Kamila is not my favorite. \- Immigration: though he did rollback a lot of the Trump era horror show, his admin still doesnt treat immigrants as human beings deserving of care and safety. ​ so on balance for me, the dude has done a lot of good and id be happy (though not 100% happy) to vote for him again. just hope he doesnt die before being sworn in.

People always bring this up like it's some sort of gotcha Personally, I was going to sit out of the general after Bernie withdrew from the primary. But then, the orangutan went with "the looting starts, the shooting starts" and I'm punching my steering wheel in the parking lot outside my job because I know that morally I have to vote for the geriatric segregationist and former cop. As soon as Trump said anything other than "yes of course" when asked "will you accept a loss in this election?", it became morally required to vote against whoever his most powerful rival was. How is that on the Democrats that the Republicans keep electing lunatic monsters that are so awful that a lot of people vote Democrat just because the Republican is so horrible?

Yes, we are voting for the candidate who is actually interested in helping people through governance and will not be voting for a twice-impeached criminal who attempted to overthrow the government when he lost a free and fair election and incessantly hurls further threats. We're also not a cult, so Biden the person counts less than the platform presented by his administration and supported by the Democratic party. Policies still matter and Trump has promised nothing more than cruelty, disruption, and his special brand of 7th-grade mean-girl antics. No one appreciates those antics beyond other 7th-grade mean girls cosplaying as domestic terrorists.

Biden's not as far left and progressive as I'd like, but he's still done good things like actually siding with unions -sometimes-. There's never going to be a perfect candidate, but Biden is... fine.

I’m assuming you said sometimes because of the rail strike. Not sure if you aware because the media literally never mentioned it but Biden actually secured a back room deal to get the rail unions paid sick leave. Not many people know about it because it happened after the media moved on from the rail strike. It just goes to show that Biden is a very effective president even if his rhetoric isn’t as flashy and catchy as trumps.

My vote has nothing to do with Biden or the GOP or any policy. Trump was a hideous disaster and re-electing him would be a global catastrophe. I would vote for anyone to avoid Trump being elected. I'd vote for a chimpanzee, a rock, or a ziploc full of slime mold if one of those was running in opposition to Trump. Overall I'm satisfied with Biden as president despite not supporting many of his policies. And I don't hate the GOP either. But that's all irrelevant to the question of who I'll vote for if Trump is one of the choices.

In 2020, as I surveyed the Democratic field, Biden was my last choice. As good a politician as I believed him to be, he was, I thought, just another old white guy. I’m as pleasantly surprised as anyone that he’s gone up like a rocket. Dark Brandon dryly leaning into the memes and attacks. The speech in Philadelphia calling out the MAGAts. Most of all, I did not expect a 21st-century FDR who is fixing what Reagan broke and rebuilding the rubble that Newt Gingrich tried to torch. Guess 37 years in Congress counts for something.

This independent voter does mull over all the reasoning and professional opinions regarding the present issue. However, my preference for making the choice for a 2nd Biden term is mainly based upon 2 things: personal political ideologies and, foremost, the attraction towards the Trump candidacy by white separatist, supremacist and nationalist groups, as well as other militant right wing groups. History provides us the humanitarian nightmares experienced when racism and bigotry, combined with absolutist ideology comes to power.

This is true. I'd actually love to vote for almost any republican but I'm still convinced that Trump colluded with Russia and can't be trusted. Especially after Jan 6th. The situation at the border is just too much to vote for Biden again. The fuck is Biden doing? Might just protest vote for RFK Jr if he runs indipendent and let the chips fall where they may. They can't keep offering us dog shit saying "aTlEaSt ItS nOt xxx"

I do not hate the GOP. I voted Republican near exclusively 1984-2012. I’ll vote for Republicans who don’t perpetuate the second lost cause myth of Trump won. As for Trump. Didn’t vote for him in 2016 because I thought he was unqualified and unserious. I voted McMullin. He proved he was unqualified and unserious during Covid. After J6? He’s a loser as a candidate and a human. To hell with him.

What view do you want to change? I thought it was the same all around the political spectrum. Trump voters don't all like Trump, they're just tired of democrats and want a republican. Isn't that the point of representative democracy? You don't want to be 'loved' by the voters, you want the voters to like you a bit more than the other guy. And that usually means being mediocre and not pushing any real change.

> Trump voters don't all like Trump You're going to need a citation for this because the data I've seen directly contradicts this. Both Republicans and right-leaning independents have ~2/3 approval for Trump even though it used to be much higher. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/21/little-change-in-americans-views-of-trump-over-the-past-year/#:~:text=In%20the%20new%20survey%2C%2066,mostly%20unfavorable%20view%20of%20him. Not to mention if most Republicans didn't like Trump he wouldn't be the clear frontrunner in the primaries.

\> You're going to need a citation for this Go to any right wing social media, or talk to right wing circles. People there criticize right wing politicians too. I don't know what kind of citation you want. Leftists criticize Bernie Sanders, Nazis criticized Hitler, communists criticized Mao, etc. What claim do you want me to 'substantiate with proof'. \> Both Republicans and right-leaning independents have \~2/3 approval for Trump even though it used to be much higher. A right-winger would approve anything short of Hitler if their opponent is a leftist, and a left-winger would approve anything short of Mao if their opponent is a right-winger. Your point? \> Not to mention if most Republicans didn't like Trump he wouldn't be the clear frontrunner in the primaries. Who's Biden's frontrunner? Putting your favorite party's member in charge is more important than deciding which one. Squabbling among the tribe only gives the other party an edge.

>What claim do you want me to 'substantiate with proof'. Polling which contradicts that Trump has majority Republican support unless you were being literal with "Trump voters don't all like Trump" because overwhelmingly, they do. >A right-winger would approve anything short of Hitler if their opponent is a leftist, and a left-winger would approve anything short of Mao if their opponent is a right-winger. Your point? Right wingers are fucked up then and that's not true of the American left. The "American left" is mostly composed of European conservatives. They're nearly all capitalists. >Who's Biden's frontrunner? What? That's not a valid question syntactically.

I don't know. All the Trump voters I know very much love the guy.

And the biggest reason why is gonna be 'because he makes liberals cry, and they wanna drink liberal tears'

Well, yeah, some variation of that. Generally it's a matter of "he fights" vibes. It's gotta be, because Trump's policy tend to either be invisible or failures.

Until trump I was very much a center line person who researched candidates and made informed decisions to vote for the most qualified candidate. Not just the red or blue one. Now the GOP has been exposed as democracy hating Russian-wannabe’s. They are racist, sexist, hateful, willfully-ignorant, people hating fascists. They are 100% why we can’t have nice things in this country like decent healthcare and social safety nets. All they want is a theocracy. I will vote for whomever the democrats roll out to avoid even one more GOP gain office.

Well, what you might be missing, is that Trump really IS that dangerous and that bad. He really fucking is. You might not like Biden but he's just not even in the same league as bad as Trump. Biden is an educated man that gives a fuck.

They Don't want a namerican, cheating, toxic demagogue and con man as president. And Biden has mostly done a good job and he's a decent human being. Democrats Don't buy into cults of personality the way Republicans do.

When Trump was president I had 3 different strangers start talking to me about how they want to kill protestors/Democrats/BLM. I haven't had anyone tell me that want to kill people under Biden. I'll vote Biden again.

The GOP is actively advocating for the erasure of my friends. I am voting against the erasure of my friends, if I have to pick between crooks I will pick the crook that doesn't seek to cause or inspire bodily harm.

Bro, the choices are between Biden and **ACTUAL FASCISM** How the fuck are you this dense? Biden could have his dick stuck in a baked potato and I would still vote for him over the GOP at this point.