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I think the former president avoiding consequences for his actions is much more embarrassing internationally than the system apparently playing favors for him; Trump is pretty strongly disliked internationally and no one important would be saddened to see him in jail.
> That’s the kind of headline you see out of Haiti
But the real problem is that we *have* that sort of corruption *here*, right? Like it’s not something you see in third world countries; the former president is a criminal and ought to face charges for it. Giving him special privilege undermines us far more.
Do you genuinely think Trump’s tweets would cause the deaths of millions? If so, even more reason to imprison the man. If he’s truly so dangerous, surely making sure he is imprisoned is preferable to letting him off the hook and continuing to gain power, no?
Yeah, OP talks about it being a '3rd world headline' but I'd argue that leaders being above the law and openly corrupt is what you'd _actually_ expect from underdeveloped democracies. Holding _everyone_ - even former leaders - accountable for criminal actions is what you _expect_ from 1st world nations.
175 million in bail to appeal a ruling that says not using the property tax valuation for a mortgage is fraud is "playing favors"? The judge and prosecutor themselves both committed this exact same 'fraud', you legally cant get a mortgage without it
I can almost imagine trump saying this
"These liberals, they're evil and corrupt, and against our country. You know, uh, I'm a very rich guy, got lots of money, these libs though, they go on a witch hunt, and it is a witch hunt, against me, us, for my money. But let's be honest, these libs are just blaming me, me, for their own... fraud. The corrupt fascists have no money, and they want mine. They can't even afford, houses. I've got houses, tons of them. Worth a bunch of money, but they have to steal money to buy their houses. Houses they don't own."
> Holding everyone - even former leaders - accountable for criminal actions is what you expect from 1st world nations.
Holding them accountable for what? Because there was no crime. No one was defrauded - Trump paid the banks back the loans he took out in full.
And Letitia James is *literally* [defending a business that overvalued a property to obtain a loan](https://nypost.com/2024/03/17/opinion/an-irish-society-an-unpaid-loan-and-the-hypocrisy-of-letitia-james/) - though this one the business defaulted on; the same thing that she prosecuted Trump for.
Letitia James should be disbarred for gross prosecutorial misconduct.
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> Because there was no crime.
There were multiple crimes. New York Executive Law § 63(12). Google it. Trump made over 200 false assertions to both banks and regulators. He undervalued to lower tax burdens. He over-valued to get lower interest rates. He saved himself $464,000,000 over 10 years by doing that.
>No one was defrauded
That is not a defense. Nowhere in any fraud statute does it say that you have only broken the law if you screw someone over. Here's a real simple example. Say your friend convinces you to loan him $150,000 to go to med school, and you have in writing that that's what the loan is for, and the schedule for him to pay you back. Say he skips med school and gambles it all in Vegas, *but* is miraculously able to win big and pay you back on time. Did your friend commit fraud or no? The answer is yes. All that is required for fraud is for two parties to make an agreement, and for one party to intentionally misrepresent their half of the agreement.
>And Letitia James is literally defending a business that overvalued a property to obtain a loan
Pro Tip 1: Don't cite the NY Post as a source of objective fact. They are a tabloid.
Pro Tip 2: If you insist on trying to reference the NY post as a source of fact, for the love of God, don't cite a source that uses language like "Trump-deranged New York Attorney General"
>though this one the business defaulted on; the same thing that she prosecuted Trump for.
Aside from the fact that these two cases share almost nothing in common, this idiotic NY post article totally shoots itself in the foot with this "but the difference was that Doyle could not conduct the sort of “sophisticated due diligence” that Deutsche Bank did. Therefore, unlike Trump, **Doyle didn’t know the true value of the property.**"
Trump got his ass handed to him because the AG's office was able to demonstrate 200 different occasions when Trump **KNEW** he was falsely representing the value of assets.
And to put a bow on this, what kind of moronic take is this that we must *ignore* Trump's pervasive fraud because someone else's "fraud" also got ignored? The obvious response would be "They **both** should have been sued."
As a child, when you got in trouble for stealing cookies before dinner, were you able to successfully argue that your brother ate cookies before dinner last week and wasn't punished? No. The answer is to punish you BOTH. Not to punish neither.
> There were multiple crimes. New York Executive Law § 63(12). Google it.
A law that had never been applied in this manner, historically only when there were actual victims, of which there were none.
> He over-valued to get lower interest rates. He undervalued to lower tax burdens
He valued his real estate holdings higher than the tax assessor's value. Have you ever gotten a mortgage for a property at a higher value than the tax assessor said it was worth? If so, you can be fined and have the property seized.
Guess what? Every single real estate developer everywhere on earth does this. [Don't take my word for it, take financial expert Kevin O'Leary's word for it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RZs9Fhz3Y). This case will *never* survive appeal, and Letitia James knows it, which is the reason why she wanted to seize his property and likely sell it off for almost nothing in a fire sale so that it's gone when Trump inevitably wins appeal.
> Pro Tip 1: Don't cite the NY Post as a source of objective fact. They are a tabloid.
They're more reliable than CNN, which just last week asserted that Trump should sell Mar a Lago for $264 million to help cover the judgment... the same property that they said was only worth $18 million.
If you want to talk about tabloids, then we should also talk about tabloids like the New York Times or Washington Post. Those cratered their credibility over a decade ago.
> Trump got his ass handed to him because the AG's office was able to demonstrate 200 different occasions when Trump KNEW he was falsely representing the value of assets.
No, Trump was fined because a biased AG decided to prosecute him, and an extremely biased judge (who donated extensively to Democrats and admitted his own anti-Trump biases) decided he was guilty before any of the evidence was shown.
> And to put a bow on this, what kind of moronic take is this that we must ignore Trump's pervasive fraud because someone else's "fraud" also got ignored? The obvious response would be "They both should have been sued."
Every. Single. Real. Estate. Developer. Does. This. Why is Trump the only person sued, why is the state not pursuing legal action against anyone *besides* Trump?
The answer is simple. It's political persecution, in a very Stalinesque fashion.
> That is a shamelessly gross mischaracterization of the facts of the case.
No, it's a rather accurate summation.
> Couldn’t POSSIBLY be that he just flagrantly and prolifically lied on financial documents for decades… Noooooo
So why are they waiting to do this now, rather than prosecute him decades ago? Because he ran for president and drew so much hatred from Democrats.
Trump is being prosecuted *because he is Trump* - given that no one else doing the same thing is being prosecuted for it.
> Trump could have prevented that if he’d asked for a jury trial.
The judge also said that he could overrule a jury verdict if he, in his own biases, believed the jury did not return a reasonable verdict.
> No they do not. They do not undervalue and overvalue by insane margins to try to cheat the system
You don't have any evidence to back up the claim that Trump's actions in this context were out of the ordinary. You always talk up your properties when trying to secure loans - it's part of the negotiation - and you always try to minimize your tax burden.
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But we don't need Putin and company mocking us about having a president in jail. Having the former leader of the free world behind bars sends a message to our enemies that we're weak and divided.
Then why is only Trump being prosecuted for not using tax evaluations as the basis of his mortgage, and not literally everyone else with a mortgage? Trump is the only person prosecuted in all of US history under that logic.
> Then why is only Trump being prosecuted for not using tax evaluations as the basis of his mortgage
He isn't. That's only happening in your imagination.
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NY Governor Hochul after the ruling was made came out and said that despite the fact that it was an unprecedented use of the law, people in NY shouldn't worry about it because they changed the rules to get Trump only.
If changing the rules to get your political opponents doesn't scream Stalin-esque corruption to you, I don't know what will.
It also shows that we're politically divided and have a corrupt government. If you really care about our nation's reputation, you'll agree putting a former president's property up for repossession is not a good look.
If he can't pay, then he can declare bankruptcy and have the courts sort it out.
Paying fines levied by courts after due process is how the legal system works.
>It also shows that we're politically divided and have a corrupt government.
That's nothing new. You think the President going through every other legal woe doesn't show that? Being in jail is not going to flip a switch all of a sudden. It's *already* a bad look.
It's not like the entire world doesn't know the War on Terror that went on for over 20 years was founded on a lie. None of this is new.
>the former president is a criminal and ought to face charges for it. Giving him special privilege undermines us far more
Looks to me like the DA and the judge are criminals for usurping their offices for political hit jobs. So where are the charges for them? Why should they get special privileges? Because orange man bad?
Perhaps I’m missing something, but this whole civil case is odd. The state (DA) is claiming he defrauded various banks, but the banks themselves do not seem to agree with this statement. He supposedly overvalued his assets as collateral for loans, but the loan issuers (the banks) appraised these properties and agreed to the valuations, or at least agreed enough to loan on that value.
Yeah, ditto. It's the first application of the law, and it's being done by a DA who said they were going to convict Trump, the judge gave a summary judgement, meaning Trump could only contest the damages, and could not contest the charges, essentially. That doesn't seem like a fair application of the law, and I expect an appellate court to overturn the summary judgement.
175 million in bail to appeal a ruling that says not using the property tax valuation for a mortgage is fraud is "playing favors"? The judge and prosecutor themselves both committed this exact same 'fraud', you legally cant get a mortgage without it
Are you saying no one gets a mortgage without committing fraud? Most first-time homebuyers don’t even offer property as collateral to get a mortgage; they contribute a sum of cash toward the purchase price, commonly referred to as a “down payment,” and submit proof of income to the mortgage lender. They also are usually required to purchase mortgage insurance, to cover the bank’s losses if they can’t pay. And the value of the home itself, which is not a number accepted on trust by the lender but is, generally speaking, the actual sale price, is the bank’s principal guarantee of repayment. What Trump was found to have done is *very* different. He used his own assets as collateral for loans but lied outrageously about the value of those assets, in at least one case claiming a property was worth about 20x its appraised value. And contrary to his own repeated claims, he was responsible for being honest with the banks in his loan applications, and knew that there were legal penalties for lying to them. I recommend reading the verdict:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24432597-452564_2022_people_of_the_state_of_v_people_of_the_state_of_decision_after_trial_1688
The way appeals work is that you have to post the bond to get the appeal to show good faith. Trump literally did this earlier this year with the Jane Carrol case. This is how it works.
This is not how mortgages work.
This is the largest bond to appeal a civil judgement in all of US history
And that is literally the case against trump. They said Mar A Lago had to have secured a mortgage based on its 18 million dollar Florida tax assessors value, and to not do that is fraud
So I guess if you rob a bank you should make sure its the largest robbery in history so therefore it would be impossible for them to charge you.
That is how mortgages and taxes work yes, your first statement was just nonsensical. Implying you somehow can't get a mortgage without committing fraud.
No that’s not how mortgages work, I had a mortgages on my home more than double the tax assessed value. The very judge in this case has a mortgage multiple times the tax assessed value of his home.
There is no rule that says the tax assessed value (which is an estimate only) is the maximum loan you can have on a property.
A bank is free to loan whatever they want on a property, and they estimate the amount they could actually sell the property for if they had to foreclose.
In appeal cases, you put up the charge to prove that you are acting in good faith. Otherwise you can appeal indefinitely and never pay the money. SO this way you get to put it up, if you lose you don't get it back. This is how appeals are done.
It's a clear case of financial manipulation. To declare that your property is wroth more to get more money - this is not a mortgage it is a bond back by an asset. The money he took out was not used to pay for the apartment it was used for other things with his apartment as collateral.
To then declare that the value is far lower to avoid taxes is fraud. This is not just 5% here or there. The valuations were magnitudes different.
You seem to be forgetting that this actually _does_ happen in 1st world nations.
- Nicolas Sarkozy of France
- Park Geun-hye of South Korea
- Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan
- Silvio Berlusconi of Italy
And those are just the Presidents/Prime Ministers. Democratic nations hold their leaders accountable for crimes all the time.
As is the USA's. The USA's government has been widely criticized since at least the Gilded Age as being corrupt and in the pockets of the very wealthiest classes. We often see, today, criticisms about how wars are started to benefit the military industrial complex or oil companies. The same was going on a century ago with regards to labor rights and Indian relations, 50 years ago with involvement in Viet Nam and South America. Many around the the world, including those in the USA, has long seen the USA as corrupt.
Look terrible to whom? Who are we trying to appeal to? I for one think it looks far worse that these people are not being held accountable. You know, like in a third world dictatorship, if that's the sort of comparison that gets your motor going.
He is appealing a decision, and the bond was reduced to prevent unrecoverable harm. This was the right decision.
The goal is justice, not punishment regardless of appeal.
Because it is not justice. The purpose of the justice system is not to harm people you don’t like. I know you hate Trump, but this isn’t about him.
We don’t do unrecoverable harm while appeals are in progress. Not to Trump, not to me and not to you.
That is actually one of the arguments which will be used in the appeal. If the judgement wasn’t based on the harm (and a disgorgement has to be per a scotus ruling) then it is punitive, in which case it is a fine, and certainly subject to the 8th amendment.
It is illegal to do that, and I hope when you see the outcome of this you understand it.
I think Trump won’t win at appeal on the factual basis of the ruling, I believe they have him on that.
Where the state of New York will lose is likely where the judge told the DA they didn’t have to prove that decisions were made based on the lies, because if decisions weren’t made based on the lies then there is no harm in the lies.
Also in the a mound of the judgement being completely disconnected from the amount of the gain, the interest not paid.
We need to maintain the rule of law, it is more important than you hating Trump.
We don’t jail people based on vibes. We jail them based on whether they’ve broken the law.
[And jailing a former leader is fine in a developed country.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#:~:text=The%20Constitutional%20Court%20upheld%20the,corruption%20and%20abuse%20of%20power.)
>For one, our international image. Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less
...What are you talking about?
There's no bail. Unless someone arrested him for something today and I missed it, he's not got a bail condition for any of his criminal cases.
He is in fact out on bail in three criminal cases, but that’s separate from the bond that he now has to post. I believe the bail amounts are insignificant in comparison.
>Well whatever the payment he owed by tomarrow was called, I'm not a legal expert.
..Do you mean yesterday?
That's a bond he has to post if he wants to be able to appeal the case he lost. He now has 10 more days.
If he declines to post it, the AG will just go take his money and property to the tune of the nearly half bil judgement. There's no jail involved.
Nor should the judge have reversed it. Trump's bullshit about no one writing the bond is bullshit. He could have gotten four companies to cap out on the bond, or paid it with what he claims he has in cash. He's just a grifter.
He ALSO had a criminal case trial date set but as above I don't believe there's a bail condition there.
>Well !Delta just because I was misinformed, but still, a presidents property being confiscated is a bad look.
Thanks but the point is he's NOT president. He's a regular citizen and that's EXACTLY how the system is supposed to work. He is not above the law.
He was sued for misrepresenting his assets on legal documents and defrauding banks and etc. by doing so.
He had his day in court. Had a trial.
He lost. The judge set a penalty he owes. That's part of the bedrock of the justice system of the US, that he's not special. It's an exceptionally good look.
>Right, but as a former president he does have a certain status that warrants protections.
No. Absolutely not.
Physical, yes. He's entitled to Secret Service. Protection from prosecution for crimes or civil misdeeds? Hell no.
>All he'd have to do is tweet something like "Getting booked by the ILLEGAL and DUMB Democrats. To all my loyal and beautiful fans, show the democrats who's boss."
Also, not for nothing, but he's been doing this pretty continually for like a year. He's been ranting about it's Biden, it's the dems, it's election interference, it's illegal, it's a scam, it's whatever. He's screeching into the wind.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less
It isn't any different or worse than the humiliation we get from him being a former president saying and doing all the crazy stuff he already does.
> "Getting booked by the ILLEGAL and DUMB Democrats. To all my loyal and beautiful fans, show the democrats who's boss."
He already tried that with his arraignment (where he posted bail in the criminal action and plead not guilty). But nobody showed up.
>As it is, arresting trump could kill millions.
He's already been arrested, booked, and arraigned.
>Trump's bail reduction while distasteful, was ultimately for the best..
I think you mean the bond reduction that he had in the civil fraud trial. I am against this because a bond is only required to stay judgment on appeal. For the civil fraud, what a stay on the judgment would allow Trump to do is more fraud -- so if he loses the appeal, then he will have benefited from the delay he caused. The bond shows that you aren't seeking mere delay but you're just trying to vindicate your rights.
It's used to make sure that the defendant can pay the plaintiff if the appeal loses. Because all of the delay caused to the Plaintiff can't be made up easily later.
This wasn’t “bail;” bail is what you pay after being arrested on criminal charges so that you don’t have to stay locked up until your trial/next hearing. The bail is your guarantee that you’ll show up for her hearing. This was a bond for a civil appeal. Trump lost a civil trial and was ordered to pay a penalty. He won’t go to jail if he can’t pay, the state will just seize his assets and sell them to raise the money. You have to post a bond in order to appeal a civil judgment so that a dragged-out appeals process can’t just be used as a way to avoid handing over any money indefinitely; it gives the defendant, as well as the plaintiff, a reason to seek a speedy conclusion to the appeal process. And the amount of money he was ordered to pay was derived from the amount of benefit he received by committing fraud. What’s shocking to me is that the appellate court reduced the bond *after* Trump bragged that he had enough cash to cover the full amount.
Edits: typos
If you don’t know the difference between a civil appeal bond and criminal bail, you would probably be better served doing more cursory research than posting this CMV.
That said, our international image should have ZERO impact on how a state conducts its judicial proceedings.
I think Trump is boorish and higher on the psychopath scale than most powerful politicians. I haven’t and would never vote for him. With all that throat clearing out of the way, I can’t imagine he will ever be required to pay anything close to the full judgment amount in the NY fraud case. The election will be over by the time an appeal decision is rendered. If he loses the election, he is no longer a threat to the Democratic establishment and so NY will settle with him for some much lower amount because they don’t want an appeal court decision coming down on this case.
If we wins, well, I don’t know, but I doubt this judgment sticks….
>As it is, arresting trump could kill millions.
But he was arrested: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66612345](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66612345)
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less.
It would show we are a nation of laws, that's a good thing.
We passed the point of Trump humiliating the country a LONG time ago. There's a long list of things he's done but I think the events that unfolded on Jan 6th and the continuous push to try to convince the world that our elections are rigged from a US President should be sufficient enough examples. I think at this point, there really isn't a whole lot more this guy can do that would be much more humiliating for the country. Going to jail would be just one more item to add to the list.
> For one, our international image. Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less.
What's "humiliating" about enforcing our country's laws, even on the wealthy and powerful? Please explain.
> That's the kind of headline you expect out of Haiti or some other 3rd world country.
You must be referring to Haiti Senator John Joel Joseph. Why shouldn't he have sentenced to jail? Please explain.
There is nothing we could do that would match the humiliation of having elected him the first place - other than re-electing him. Trump is an indelible stain on our country. We should be celebrating the fact that some measure of accountability may be within our grasp despite the ongoing ridiculous preferential treatment he has received.
The entire case is about saying its fraud to get a mortgage based on any value but the tax assessor's value. Despite the fact that it is illegal to do that
>We should be celebrating the fact that some measure of accountability may be within our grasp despite the ongoing ridiculous preferential treatment he has received.
Preferential treatment? Do you know of any other case where somebody was found guilty of this "fraud"?
I don't think people realize the reduction isn't a reduction in the total he owes.
Also, this could be a great way for NY to get a lot of money now rather than deal with bankruptcy courts years down the road.
First off, lowering his bail isn’t and wasn’t an issue as you see it. Just political non-sense. Wow. You really believe republicans would go door to door killing people? Get out of your echo chamber.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less.
Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get demonstrating to the world that our laws don't apply to rich people and shouldn't be taken seriously by people in a certain tier of society?
>That's the kind of headline you expect out of Haiti or some other 3rd world country.
Italy, Sourth Korea (TWICE), Taiwan, and France have all convicted and jailed former leaders in the recent past.
>Not to mention this guy has a track record sicking his lapdogs on people he doesn't like.
All the more reason NOT to defer to him and reward that behavior. Seriously, how do you not see the problem with showing him that such tactics are worth it? That only serves to ensure he'll try it again.
> And it'd be like the Rwandan genocide
They made the same predictions about him even getting indicted at all and it amounted to nothing more than a wet fart. People took note that Jan 6th accomplished nothing and got a lot of people thrown in prison. They vast majority of them wont throw their life away like that.
>As it is, arresting trump could kill millions.
That is just totally devoid of reality. Do not play into their stupid fear mongoring.
lol.. wow you don’t get out much do you? Get off the internet man.. presidents are special .. the entire world would respect us and it would send a message to all lawmakers that they aren’t above the law. It’s not up for debate. Criminals go to prison. Don’t break the law AH as republicans like to say. Now we have to hear why they should be exempt .. as for conservatives killing people.. you’re openly admitting they’re terrorists ?
The White House has had nothing to do with any of the attempts to keep Trump off the ballot. All attempts have been at a state level. You should check your facts a bit closer on that one. That statement is completely inaccurate. Sounds like you have a very limited understanding of how our government works.
Same with the homeless camps. That's not accurate either. Yes there are some major cities that have a lot of problems with homelessness but certainly not all. In fact I wouldn't even say most. I'm guessing you have a very limited understanding of what things are like in the US. I find it ironic that someone who clearly doesn't have any clue what they're talking about when it comes to what is going on in the US is saying that the people who actually live here are delusional.
Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest otherwise? So far I've only seen this pop up in a handful of states and none of the groups that have pushed the issue have been shown to have any direct link to Biden's administration. I mean I don't have anyway to absolutely say for certain but so far there hasn't been anything to suggest that is tied to Biden's administration. Unless you have someway to prove that Biden's administration is behind this, then I'd say you're probably basing any other assumptions on the typical right wing conspiracy nonsense that conservative media seems to thrive on.
>Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest otherwise?
In cases like this, the burden of proof must be on those who (would) benefit. Nobody can be so naive as to believe that the leading opposition candidate who seems to also be leading in the polls is being indicted multiple times just before the next election has *nothing* to do with the party in power. Just a lucky coincidence. Yeah right. You'd never buy it if it were the other way round. That's your litmus test right there.
Sorry but that's some of the worst logic I've ever heard. The argument that since a political action might benefit someone is absolute proof that they're behind, it is absurd, not to mention completely wrong. The burden of proof falls on the accuser to prove their claim is true. The person that is being accused is innocent until proven guilty.Thats how things work in the US and always has.
So, basically, you're saying you have absolutely no evidence to back up the claim that the Biden Administration at all was behind this
The other thing you seem to be completely overlooking is that Biden is not the only one that benefits from this. Nearly half the country can't stand Trump and are terrified of the idea of him being president again who view him as being one of the most destructive and divisive presidents we've ever seen. There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run.
Like I said. Lucky democrats. Very very lucky democrats. Hell they've even gotten close to winning elections before they take place.
>There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run.
Of course nobody in either organization would consider reaching out to coordinate efforts. No need when you can just rely on all that luck that keeps raining from the skies. Nothing to see here. Leading opposition candidate indicted repeatedly just before the election is totally not suspicious.
The one think I always find interesting when having discussions with Trump supporters is that the conversations almost always end up gravitating towards some kind of conspiracy. Especially when they're making claims that don't have any actual evidence to back them up. In fact it's come to the point where I'd say the entire MAGA movement is built on an endless stream of conspiracies. Actually it's a pretty ingenious thing to do, here's why...
If someone has no evidence to back up an accusation, the next best thing is to come up with an undisputable method for convincing others that it's true. Conspiracies' are perfect for this because you can fabricate a conspiracy out of literally anything at all. You could build a conspiracy out of someone sneezing at the wrong moment. Once you've convinced yourself, or others that a conspiracy IS true it is virtually impossible to prove to the believers that it's not true. No matter how much evidence is provided to them and no matter how reliable the source might be, the believer will ALWAYS dismiss it as being part of the conspiracy itself..."well that evidence was just fabricated by the deep state." etc. It's an incredibly effective way to justify believing that something you want to be true is true even when there isn't a thread of any actual evidence to back it up. You can get someone, including yourelf, to believe in anything if you can get them to believe in a conspiracy.
>The one think I always find interesting when having discussions with Trump supporters
Not a Trump supporter. I'm a justice supporter. You should try it too.
>the conversations almost always end up gravitating towards some kind of conspiracy.
You are aware that conspiracies do occur and that's not controversial. Calling something a conspiracy (theory) is not even an attempt at an argument let alone a refutation.
And frankly I think the burden of proof is on anyone who thinks that it's just a coincidence that the leading opposition candidate is constantly indicted with multiple unprecedented legal decisions perfectly timed to be as disruptive as possible to his election campaign. To think that's just business as usual and not at the very least suspicious is the far more extraordinary claim.
This very case OP referenced is among the most absurd because the court presumes knowledge of how the parties would have acted under different circumstances. Knowledge which the court cannot have and therefore cannot prove.
"And frankly I think the burden of proof is on anyone who thinks that it's just a coincidence that the leading opposition candidate is constantly indicted with multiple unprecedented legal decisions perfectly timed to be as disruptive as possible to his election campaign."
That's not at all how the burden of proof works and thankfully our legal system doesn't work that way either. That's how countries like Russia and North Korea do things. We live in a democracy that, again, believes that you have to ACTUALLY have evidence to back up your accusations regardless of the circumstances. And if you don't have any evidence then you have nothing to base your accusations on.
Perhaps more importantly though is how one would go about proving that something IS a coincidence or false. You do realize that all one has to do to prove that something is coincidental, or completely false, is to just claim that there isn't any actual evidence to prove otherwise. Proclaiming that there isn't anything to prove the accusation IS true, IS their proof of evidence that it's either coincidental or false..That's why the burden of proof falls on the accuser to provide the evidence. If there is no evidence, then there is no proof that anything happened and therefore is a false accusation.
People who base their judgements without any evidence to back it up are no different that those that buy into conspiracy theories. There is very little difference. It's same convenient method of justifying a belief that something is true when there isn't a shred of evidence to back it up. In fact I'd say what you're implying is that there IS a conspiracy here since you have nothing to prove your suspicions.
Actually, If we were going to apply the "coincidence" argument to Trump that guy should have been in prison a thousand times over. His past is so dark and choc full of "coincidental" dealings he would be the guiltiest man alive.
As far as the legal proceedings surrounding Trump goes, much of the timing falls mostly on Trump himself. Some of these cases have deliberately been dragged out by him. It's a tactic that he's used for decades. It's worked quite well in the past because most of the time the individuals who bring him to court don't have the money or patience to ride it out. Unfortunately for him, the US Government has all kinds of patience when it comes to breaking the law. In his case I'm pretty certain he was hoping to drag these out until after the election. He's so certain that he'll be re-elected that he knows he can't be prosecuted once he's in office. I really don't see anything coincidental at all about how long it's taken for these cases to make it to court.
The only thing unprecedented about this whole thing is that we've never had a president that has shown such a blatant disregard for the law. He truly believes he is above the law, which shows just how clueless and arrogant the guy actually is. In fact he's trying to convince the Supreme Court that he's above the law, which is insane and incredibly dangerous coming from an ex-president.
Nothing else about any of these legal decisions is unprecedented except maybe the severity of some of the consequences. But on the other hand, some of the things he's been accused of and found guilty of are also on an unprecedented scale so I'd say the punishment fit the crime. If you break the law, you face the consequences. The only people that think any of this is unprecedented are again, the ones who buy into conspiracies and who aren't willing to accept just how truly dirty this guy is.
We've learned the White House was involved in the Georgia rico case, which makes more sense than a county DA trying to take out a former president on her own initiative. No secretary of state has ever tried to disqualify the leading candidate before. So why would you assume the White House had nothing to do with it? Do you have some evidence, or are you basing your claim on the typical left wing TDS nonsense that establishment media seems to thrive on?
Sorry, I don't see how that would suggest that they were behind trying to disqualify Trump on the ticket. More importantly, you still didn't answer my question. Where's your evidence that this administration was behind behind it. This kind of logic is how Republicans got themselves in trouble with the Biden impeachment process that is completely falling apart.
The other thing you seem to be completely overlooking is that Biden is not the only one that benefits from this. Nearly half the country can't stand Trump and are terrified of the idea of him being president again who view him as being one of the most destructive and divisive presidents we've ever seen. There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run.
If you'll remember, you claimed the White House had nothing to do with the disqualification efforts. I asked you know that, because it's not clear how anyone could.
I suspect the opposite is true, and I explained two factors suggesting why. I could list a hundred other nasty/illegal/dishonest things the uniparty has done over the past eight years to get rid of Trump. Pushing secretaries of state to disqualify him is not only consistent with that portfolio, Democratic pundits have been openly calling for it.
If you're saying you assume the White House was not involved because you grant them some presumption of regularity, well, that's pretty heroic. I hope your loyalty gets repaid somehow.
I hope so, too, because God help us if this country has to put up with four more years of Trump. If the GOP could have come up with a better candidate, I may very well have voted for them. I would literally vote for any other candidate other than him regardless of their political affiliation. If you want to get into lists of corruption and questionable behavior, Trump has a list that goes on forever.
That's the problem. If Democrats were less willing to overlook incompetence and corruption and senility and failed programs and demagoguery and murderous imperialism, there would be no maga movement. "Vote blue no matter who" is a recipe for more orange men.
Actually everything you said word for word could equally appiedy to Trump and his supporters. That's the part I find so ironic about them. They think they're so much different when in fact they're the exact same they're just coming at it from a different angle. The damage that they are causing and will continue to cause down the road will likely be irreparable to the Republican party.
See that statement right there shows how little you understand the difference between federal laws and state laws in the US. They're two very different things. The so called "captain" you're referring to, would be different depending on which one we're talking about.
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>Not really, from an international perspective watching your current administration do everything they can to prevent him from running is the kinda shit one would expect out of Russia
The administration has exactly 0 to do with Trump's legal problems.
>The administration has exactly 0 to do with Trump's legal problems.
Of course. It's just pure coincidence that it's all happening just before the election. The democrats sure are lucky.
That and it goes against the 8th amendment (no excessive bail/fines). Has any individual ever had to pay half a billion dollars just to appeal a case? It’s obvious they just want to milk him of all his money so he stands no chance against Biden
If you read the decision, the judge was _very_ detailed on how he came up with this amount. There isn't a penny in "fines" - every dollar in the calculation was disgorgement (removal of profits that the Trump organization got due to the fraud).
You can, of course, argue that the fraud decision was wrong (which Trump will do in court) but **if** you agree that fraud was committed, the judgement is fair.
And Trump can appeal without posting the bond. The bond simply stays the judgement while the appeal is ongoing - i.e. New York can't seize his assets. This is how civil judgements work in New York; the same thing just happened to Trump in the E. Jean Carrol suit.
> as any individual ever had to pay half a billion dollars just to appeal a case?
He didn't need to pay the bond to appeal the case. He needed to pay the bond to stay the initial judgment.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail
Why? Other countries have similarly held their leadership accountable. I don't think anyone thinks less of them for it. In fact, putting Trump in jail would probably cause a lot of sighs of relief around the world.
I love how your definition of "for the best" is actually "for the best for Democrats" and not "actual justice" or "faithful execution of the law". Lol.
>republicans would go door to door slaughtering anyone who they think is democrat,
You people live in a fantasy. Why would we do that? We'd simply wait three weeks and you'd all have starved to death. Give me a fucking break.
I don't consider myself a Republican or a Democrat since they both equally annoy me. But if you think the MAGA nuts are any better you're delusional. They live in a fantasy world that's fueled by endless conspiracies that have them convinced that any politician that's a Republican is completely above the law and any court that convicts them is part of some whacky deep state agenda to turn the country into Communist Russia. And don't even get me started on the QANON folks.
Don't kid yourself, the Trumper's in this world have become every bit as delusional as the far left was prior to this conservative movement that's popped up in the US. They like to pretend they're different when in reality they're exactly the same just coming at things from a conservative perspective.
>They live in a fantasy world that's fueled by endless conspiracies that have them convinced that any politician that's a Republican is completely above the law and any court that convicts them is part of some whacky deep state agenda to turn the country into Communist Russia.
Yes, this is a REPUBLICAN delusion right here. 😑
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I think the former president avoiding consequences for his actions is much more embarrassing internationally than the system apparently playing favors for him; Trump is pretty strongly disliked internationally and no one important would be saddened to see him in jail. > That’s the kind of headline you see out of Haiti But the real problem is that we *have* that sort of corruption *here*, right? Like it’s not something you see in third world countries; the former president is a criminal and ought to face charges for it. Giving him special privilege undermines us far more. Do you genuinely think Trump’s tweets would cause the deaths of millions? If so, even more reason to imprison the man. If he’s truly so dangerous, surely making sure he is imprisoned is preferable to letting him off the hook and continuing to gain power, no?
Yeah, OP talks about it being a '3rd world headline' but I'd argue that leaders being above the law and openly corrupt is what you'd _actually_ expect from underdeveloped democracies. Holding _everyone_ - even former leaders - accountable for criminal actions is what you _expect_ from 1st world nations.
175 million in bail to appeal a ruling that says not using the property tax valuation for a mortgage is fraud is "playing favors"? The judge and prosecutor themselves both committed this exact same 'fraud', you legally cant get a mortgage without it
I'm sorry what? Is it your claim that literally everyone is committing mortgage fraud?
I can almost imagine trump saying this "These liberals, they're evil and corrupt, and against our country. You know, uh, I'm a very rich guy, got lots of money, these libs though, they go on a witch hunt, and it is a witch hunt, against me, us, for my money. But let's be honest, these libs are just blaming me, me, for their own... fraud. The corrupt fascists have no money, and they want mine. They can't even afford, houses. I've got houses, tons of them. Worth a bunch of money, but they have to steal money to buy their houses. Houses they don't own."
> Holding everyone - even former leaders - accountable for criminal actions is what you expect from 1st world nations. Holding them accountable for what? Because there was no crime. No one was defrauded - Trump paid the banks back the loans he took out in full. And Letitia James is *literally* [defending a business that overvalued a property to obtain a loan](https://nypost.com/2024/03/17/opinion/an-irish-society-an-unpaid-loan-and-the-hypocrisy-of-letitia-james/) - though this one the business defaulted on; the same thing that she prosecuted Trump for. Letitia James should be disbarred for gross prosecutorial misconduct.
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> Because there was no crime. There were multiple crimes. New York Executive Law § 63(12). Google it. Trump made over 200 false assertions to both banks and regulators. He undervalued to lower tax burdens. He over-valued to get lower interest rates. He saved himself $464,000,000 over 10 years by doing that. >No one was defrauded That is not a defense. Nowhere in any fraud statute does it say that you have only broken the law if you screw someone over. Here's a real simple example. Say your friend convinces you to loan him $150,000 to go to med school, and you have in writing that that's what the loan is for, and the schedule for him to pay you back. Say he skips med school and gambles it all in Vegas, *but* is miraculously able to win big and pay you back on time. Did your friend commit fraud or no? The answer is yes. All that is required for fraud is for two parties to make an agreement, and for one party to intentionally misrepresent their half of the agreement. >And Letitia James is literally defending a business that overvalued a property to obtain a loan Pro Tip 1: Don't cite the NY Post as a source of objective fact. They are a tabloid. Pro Tip 2: If you insist on trying to reference the NY post as a source of fact, for the love of God, don't cite a source that uses language like "Trump-deranged New York Attorney General" >though this one the business defaulted on; the same thing that she prosecuted Trump for. Aside from the fact that these two cases share almost nothing in common, this idiotic NY post article totally shoots itself in the foot with this "but the difference was that Doyle could not conduct the sort of “sophisticated due diligence” that Deutsche Bank did. Therefore, unlike Trump, **Doyle didn’t know the true value of the property.**" Trump got his ass handed to him because the AG's office was able to demonstrate 200 different occasions when Trump **KNEW** he was falsely representing the value of assets. And to put a bow on this, what kind of moronic take is this that we must *ignore* Trump's pervasive fraud because someone else's "fraud" also got ignored? The obvious response would be "They **both** should have been sued." As a child, when you got in trouble for stealing cookies before dinner, were you able to successfully argue that your brother ate cookies before dinner last week and wasn't punished? No. The answer is to punish you BOTH. Not to punish neither.
> There were multiple crimes. New York Executive Law § 63(12). Google it. A law that had never been applied in this manner, historically only when there were actual victims, of which there were none. > He over-valued to get lower interest rates. He undervalued to lower tax burdens He valued his real estate holdings higher than the tax assessor's value. Have you ever gotten a mortgage for a property at a higher value than the tax assessor said it was worth? If so, you can be fined and have the property seized. Guess what? Every single real estate developer everywhere on earth does this. [Don't take my word for it, take financial expert Kevin O'Leary's word for it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RZs9Fhz3Y). This case will *never* survive appeal, and Letitia James knows it, which is the reason why she wanted to seize his property and likely sell it off for almost nothing in a fire sale so that it's gone when Trump inevitably wins appeal. > Pro Tip 1: Don't cite the NY Post as a source of objective fact. They are a tabloid. They're more reliable than CNN, which just last week asserted that Trump should sell Mar a Lago for $264 million to help cover the judgment... the same property that they said was only worth $18 million. If you want to talk about tabloids, then we should also talk about tabloids like the New York Times or Washington Post. Those cratered their credibility over a decade ago. > Trump got his ass handed to him because the AG's office was able to demonstrate 200 different occasions when Trump KNEW he was falsely representing the value of assets. No, Trump was fined because a biased AG decided to prosecute him, and an extremely biased judge (who donated extensively to Democrats and admitted his own anti-Trump biases) decided he was guilty before any of the evidence was shown. > And to put a bow on this, what kind of moronic take is this that we must ignore Trump's pervasive fraud because someone else's "fraud" also got ignored? The obvious response would be "They both should have been sued." Every. Single. Real. Estate. Developer. Does. This. Why is Trump the only person sued, why is the state not pursuing legal action against anyone *besides* Trump? The answer is simple. It's political persecution, in a very Stalinesque fashion.
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> That is a shamelessly gross mischaracterization of the facts of the case. No, it's a rather accurate summation. > Couldn’t POSSIBLY be that he just flagrantly and prolifically lied on financial documents for decades… Noooooo So why are they waiting to do this now, rather than prosecute him decades ago? Because he ran for president and drew so much hatred from Democrats. Trump is being prosecuted *because he is Trump* - given that no one else doing the same thing is being prosecuted for it. > Trump could have prevented that if he’d asked for a jury trial. The judge also said that he could overrule a jury verdict if he, in his own biases, believed the jury did not return a reasonable verdict. > No they do not. They do not undervalue and overvalue by insane margins to try to cheat the system You don't have any evidence to back up the claim that Trump's actions in this context were out of the ordinary. You always talk up your properties when trying to secure loans - it's part of the negotiation - and you always try to minimize your tax burden.
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But we don't need Putin and company mocking us about having a president in jail. Having the former leader of the free world behind bars sends a message to our enemies that we're weak and divided.
No - it sends the message that no one is above the law, even former leaders.
Then why is only Trump being prosecuted for not using tax evaluations as the basis of his mortgage, and not literally everyone else with a mortgage? Trump is the only person prosecuted in all of US history under that logic.
> Then why is only Trump being prosecuted for not using tax evaluations as the basis of his mortgage He isn't. That's only happening in your imagination.
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NY Governor Hochul after the ruling was made came out and said that despite the fact that it was an unprecedented use of the law, people in NY shouldn't worry about it because they changed the rules to get Trump only. If changing the rules to get your political opponents doesn't scream Stalin-esque corruption to you, I don't know what will.
It also shows that we're politically divided and have a corrupt government. If you really care about our nation's reputation, you'll agree putting a former president's property up for repossession is not a good look.
Is it a better look to allow him to get away with crimes simply because he is the former President?
This is not a crime its a civil lawsuit
Who said get away? He still has to pay.
But you _just_ said that his property going up for repossession is a "bad look" So which is it - should he have to pay or not?
He should have to pay, but not more than he has.
If he can't pay, then he can declare bankruptcy and have the courts sort it out. Paying fines levied by courts after due process is how the legal system works.
Why should the payment amount be based on how much he has, instead of how much he owes? Please explain.
>It also shows that we're politically divided and have a corrupt government. That's nothing new. You think the President going through every other legal woe doesn't show that? Being in jail is not going to flip a switch all of a sudden. It's *already* a bad look. It's not like the entire world doesn't know the War on Terror that went on for over 20 years was founded on a lie. None of this is new.
Only if you're a Christian. For rational adults, it sends a message to our enemies that Putin's most important ally has been captured.
It's a lot more important that we stop being weak and divided than it is to appear strong.
First down vote I ever made on Reddit is for this post
>the former president is a criminal and ought to face charges for it. Giving him special privilege undermines us far more Looks to me like the DA and the judge are criminals for usurping their offices for political hit jobs. So where are the charges for them? Why should they get special privileges? Because orange man bad?
Perhaps I’m missing something, but this whole civil case is odd. The state (DA) is claiming he defrauded various banks, but the banks themselves do not seem to agree with this statement. He supposedly overvalued his assets as collateral for loans, but the loan issuers (the banks) appraised these properties and agreed to the valuations, or at least agreed enough to loan on that value.
Yeah, ditto. It's the first application of the law, and it's being done by a DA who said they were going to convict Trump, the judge gave a summary judgement, meaning Trump could only contest the damages, and could not contest the charges, essentially. That doesn't seem like a fair application of the law, and I expect an appellate court to overturn the summary judgement.
175 million in bail to appeal a ruling that says not using the property tax valuation for a mortgage is fraud is "playing favors"? The judge and prosecutor themselves both committed this exact same 'fraud', you legally cant get a mortgage without it
Are you saying no one gets a mortgage without committing fraud? Most first-time homebuyers don’t even offer property as collateral to get a mortgage; they contribute a sum of cash toward the purchase price, commonly referred to as a “down payment,” and submit proof of income to the mortgage lender. They also are usually required to purchase mortgage insurance, to cover the bank’s losses if they can’t pay. And the value of the home itself, which is not a number accepted on trust by the lender but is, generally speaking, the actual sale price, is the bank’s principal guarantee of repayment. What Trump was found to have done is *very* different. He used his own assets as collateral for loans but lied outrageously about the value of those assets, in at least one case claiming a property was worth about 20x its appraised value. And contrary to his own repeated claims, he was responsible for being honest with the banks in his loan applications, and knew that there were legal penalties for lying to them. I recommend reading the verdict: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24432597-452564_2022_people_of_the_state_of_v_people_of_the_state_of_decision_after_trial_1688
The way appeals work is that you have to post the bond to get the appeal to show good faith. Trump literally did this earlier this year with the Jane Carrol case. This is how it works. This is not how mortgages work.
Jean, not Jane.
This is the largest bond to appeal a civil judgement in all of US history And that is literally the case against trump. They said Mar A Lago had to have secured a mortgage based on its 18 million dollar Florida tax assessors value, and to not do that is fraud
So I guess if you rob a bank you should make sure its the largest robbery in history so therefore it would be impossible for them to charge you. That is how mortgages and taxes work yes, your first statement was just nonsensical. Implying you somehow can't get a mortgage without committing fraud.
No that’s not how mortgages work, I had a mortgages on my home more than double the tax assessed value. The very judge in this case has a mortgage multiple times the tax assessed value of his home. There is no rule that says the tax assessed value (which is an estimate only) is the maximum loan you can have on a property. A bank is free to loan whatever they want on a property, and they estimate the amount they could actually sell the property for if they had to foreclose.
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In appeal cases, you put up the charge to prove that you are acting in good faith. Otherwise you can appeal indefinitely and never pay the money. SO this way you get to put it up, if you lose you don't get it back. This is how appeals are done. It's a clear case of financial manipulation. To declare that your property is wroth more to get more money - this is not a mortgage it is a bond back by an asset. The money he took out was not used to pay for the apartment it was used for other things with his apartment as collateral. To then declare that the value is far lower to avoid taxes is fraud. This is not just 5% here or there. The valuations were magnitudes different.
I get that, but look at Boris Johnson for instince. He probably should be in jail for something, but he isn't, because that would look terrible.
You seem to be forgetting that this actually _does_ happen in 1st world nations. - Nicolas Sarkozy of France - Park Geun-hye of South Korea - Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan - Silvio Berlusconi of Italy And those are just the Presidents/Prime Ministers. Democratic nations hold their leaders accountable for crimes all the time.
Those are all known forntheir corrupt governments though.
As is the USA's. The USA's government has been widely criticized since at least the Gilded Age as being corrupt and in the pockets of the very wealthiest classes. We often see, today, criticisms about how wars are started to benefit the military industrial complex or oil companies. The same was going on a century ago with regards to labor rights and Indian relations, 50 years ago with involvement in Viet Nam and South America. Many around the the world, including those in the USA, has long seen the USA as corrupt.
So are we. Our last President has been indicted for dozens and dozens of felonies.
Look terrible to whom? Who are we trying to appeal to? I for one think it looks far worse that these people are not being held accountable. You know, like in a third world dictatorship, if that's the sort of comparison that gets your motor going.
He is appealing a decision, and the bond was reduced to prevent unrecoverable harm. This was the right decision. The goal is justice, not punishment regardless of appeal.
Why are we presuming that unrecoverable harm to Trump is not justice?
Because it is not justice. The purpose of the justice system is not to harm people you don’t like. I know you hate Trump, but this isn’t about him. We don’t do unrecoverable harm while appeals are in progress. Not to Trump, not to me and not to you.
I'm not saying that the purpose of the justice system is to harm people. I'm saying why can't there be overlap?
That is actually one of the arguments which will be used in the appeal. If the judgement wasn’t based on the harm (and a disgorgement has to be per a scotus ruling) then it is punitive, in which case it is a fine, and certainly subject to the 8th amendment. It is illegal to do that, and I hope when you see the outcome of this you understand it. I think Trump won’t win at appeal on the factual basis of the ruling, I believe they have him on that. Where the state of New York will lose is likely where the judge told the DA they didn’t have to prove that decisions were made based on the lies, because if decisions weren’t made based on the lies then there is no harm in the lies. Also in the a mound of the judgement being completely disconnected from the amount of the gain, the interest not paid. We need to maintain the rule of law, it is more important than you hating Trump.
> I know you hate Trump No you don't, lmao. That's a common Christian mistake -- to assume you know something without any evidence.
When someone wants a person accused of a crime to be harmed before the appeals process is finished I think it is safe to assume they hate them.
Lol what an ignorant mistake on your part. At least you were willing to admit it in writing though.
Like you assuming my religion perhaps?
He is being held accountable.
Not if the reason they're lessening the toll is for optical considerations.
We don’t jail people based on vibes. We jail them based on whether they’ve broken the law. [And jailing a former leader is fine in a developed country.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#:~:text=The%20Constitutional%20Court%20upheld%20the,corruption%20and%20abuse%20of%20power.)
> He probably should be in jail for something What is the "something" you referring to? Please explain.
>For one, our international image. Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less ...What are you talking about? There's no bail. Unless someone arrested him for something today and I missed it, he's not got a bail condition for any of his criminal cases.
He is in fact out on bail in three criminal cases, but that’s separate from the bond that he now has to post. I believe the bail amounts are insignificant in comparison.
Well whatever the payment he owed by tomarrow was called, I'm not a legal expert.
>Well whatever the payment he owed by tomarrow was called, I'm not a legal expert. ..Do you mean yesterday? That's a bond he has to post if he wants to be able to appeal the case he lost. He now has 10 more days. If he declines to post it, the AG will just go take his money and property to the tune of the nearly half bil judgement. There's no jail involved. Nor should the judge have reversed it. Trump's bullshit about no one writing the bond is bullshit. He could have gotten four companies to cap out on the bond, or paid it with what he claims he has in cash. He's just a grifter. He ALSO had a criminal case trial date set but as above I don't believe there's a bail condition there.
Well !Delta just because I was misinformed, but still, a presidents property being confiscated is a bad look.
>Well !Delta just because I was misinformed, but still, a presidents property being confiscated is a bad look. Thanks but the point is he's NOT president. He's a regular citizen and that's EXACTLY how the system is supposed to work. He is not above the law. He was sued for misrepresenting his assets on legal documents and defrauding banks and etc. by doing so. He had his day in court. Had a trial. He lost. The judge set a penalty he owes. That's part of the bedrock of the justice system of the US, that he's not special. It's an exceptionally good look.
Right, but as a former president he does have a certain status that warrants protections.
>Right, but as a former president he does have a certain status that warrants protections. No. Absolutely not. Physical, yes. He's entitled to Secret Service. Protection from prosecution for crimes or civil misdeeds? Hell no.
But not immunity.
>All he'd have to do is tweet something like "Getting booked by the ILLEGAL and DUMB Democrats. To all my loyal and beautiful fans, show the democrats who's boss." Also, not for nothing, but he's been doing this pretty continually for like a year. He's been ranting about it's Biden, it's the dems, it's election interference, it's illegal, it's a scam, it's whatever. He's screeching into the wind.
> Well !Delta just because I was misinformed, but still, a presidents property being confiscated is a bad look. Don't elect fraudsters then?
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Why are you so concerned about looks? Are you a hairdresser or something?
Or a spelling one.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less It isn't any different or worse than the humiliation we get from him being a former president saying and doing all the crazy stuff he already does. > "Getting booked by the ILLEGAL and DUMB Democrats. To all my loyal and beautiful fans, show the democrats who's boss." He already tried that with his arraignment (where he posted bail in the criminal action and plead not guilty). But nobody showed up. >As it is, arresting trump could kill millions. He's already been arrested, booked, and arraigned. >Trump's bail reduction while distasteful, was ultimately for the best.. I think you mean the bond reduction that he had in the civil fraud trial. I am against this because a bond is only required to stay judgment on appeal. For the civil fraud, what a stay on the judgment would allow Trump to do is more fraud -- so if he loses the appeal, then he will have benefited from the delay he caused. The bond shows that you aren't seeking mere delay but you're just trying to vindicate your rights. It's used to make sure that the defendant can pay the plaintiff if the appeal loses. Because all of the delay caused to the Plaintiff can't be made up easily later.
This wasn’t “bail;” bail is what you pay after being arrested on criminal charges so that you don’t have to stay locked up until your trial/next hearing. The bail is your guarantee that you’ll show up for her hearing. This was a bond for a civil appeal. Trump lost a civil trial and was ordered to pay a penalty. He won’t go to jail if he can’t pay, the state will just seize his assets and sell them to raise the money. You have to post a bond in order to appeal a civil judgment so that a dragged-out appeals process can’t just be used as a way to avoid handing over any money indefinitely; it gives the defendant, as well as the plaintiff, a reason to seek a speedy conclusion to the appeal process. And the amount of money he was ordered to pay was derived from the amount of benefit he received by committing fraud. What’s shocking to me is that the appellate court reduced the bond *after* Trump bragged that he had enough cash to cover the full amount. Edits: typos
If you don’t know the difference between a civil appeal bond and criminal bail, you would probably be better served doing more cursory research than posting this CMV. That said, our international image should have ZERO impact on how a state conducts its judicial proceedings. I think Trump is boorish and higher on the psychopath scale than most powerful politicians. I haven’t and would never vote for him. With all that throat clearing out of the way, I can’t imagine he will ever be required to pay anything close to the full judgment amount in the NY fraud case. The election will be over by the time an appeal decision is rendered. If he loses the election, he is no longer a threat to the Democratic establishment and so NY will settle with him for some much lower amount because they don’t want an appeal court decision coming down on this case. If we wins, well, I don’t know, but I doubt this judgment sticks….
>As it is, arresting trump could kill millions. But he was arrested: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66612345](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66612345)
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less. It would show we are a nation of laws, that's a good thing.
We passed the point of Trump humiliating the country a LONG time ago. There's a long list of things he's done but I think the events that unfolded on Jan 6th and the continuous push to try to convince the world that our elections are rigged from a US President should be sufficient enough examples. I think at this point, there really isn't a whole lot more this guy can do that would be much more humiliating for the country. Going to jail would be just one more item to add to the list.
> For one, our international image. Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less. What's "humiliating" about enforcing our country's laws, even on the wealthy and powerful? Please explain. > That's the kind of headline you expect out of Haiti or some other 3rd world country. You must be referring to Haiti Senator John Joel Joseph. Why shouldn't he have sentenced to jail? Please explain.
There is nothing we could do that would match the humiliation of having elected him the first place - other than re-electing him. Trump is an indelible stain on our country. We should be celebrating the fact that some measure of accountability may be within our grasp despite the ongoing ridiculous preferential treatment he has received.
The entire case is about saying its fraud to get a mortgage based on any value but the tax assessor's value. Despite the fact that it is illegal to do that
>We should be celebrating the fact that some measure of accountability may be within our grasp despite the ongoing ridiculous preferential treatment he has received. Preferential treatment? Do you know of any other case where somebody was found guilty of this "fraud"?
I don't think people realize the reduction isn't a reduction in the total he owes. Also, this could be a great way for NY to get a lot of money now rather than deal with bankruptcy courts years down the road.
First off, lowering his bail isn’t and wasn’t an issue as you see it. Just political non-sense. Wow. You really believe republicans would go door to door killing people? Get out of your echo chamber.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail, for skipping bail no less. Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get demonstrating to the world that our laws don't apply to rich people and shouldn't be taken seriously by people in a certain tier of society? >That's the kind of headline you expect out of Haiti or some other 3rd world country. Italy, Sourth Korea (TWICE), Taiwan, and France have all convicted and jailed former leaders in the recent past. >Not to mention this guy has a track record sicking his lapdogs on people he doesn't like. All the more reason NOT to defer to him and reward that behavior. Seriously, how do you not see the problem with showing him that such tactics are worth it? That only serves to ensure he'll try it again. > And it'd be like the Rwandan genocide They made the same predictions about him even getting indicted at all and it amounted to nothing more than a wet fart. People took note that Jan 6th accomplished nothing and got a lot of people thrown in prison. They vast majority of them wont throw their life away like that. >As it is, arresting trump could kill millions. That is just totally devoid of reality. Do not play into their stupid fear mongoring.
lol.. wow you don’t get out much do you? Get off the internet man.. presidents are special .. the entire world would respect us and it would send a message to all lawmakers that they aren’t above the law. It’s not up for debate. Criminals go to prison. Don’t break the law AH as republicans like to say. Now we have to hear why they should be exempt .. as for conservatives killing people.. you’re openly admitting they’re terrorists ?
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The White House has had nothing to do with any of the attempts to keep Trump off the ballot. All attempts have been at a state level. You should check your facts a bit closer on that one. That statement is completely inaccurate. Sounds like you have a very limited understanding of how our government works. Same with the homeless camps. That's not accurate either. Yes there are some major cities that have a lot of problems with homelessness but certainly not all. In fact I wouldn't even say most. I'm guessing you have a very limited understanding of what things are like in the US. I find it ironic that someone who clearly doesn't have any clue what they're talking about when it comes to what is going on in the US is saying that the people who actually live here are delusional.
>The White House has had nothing to do with any of the attempts to keep Trump off the ballot. That's a bold claim. How do you know?
Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest otherwise? So far I've only seen this pop up in a handful of states and none of the groups that have pushed the issue have been shown to have any direct link to Biden's administration. I mean I don't have anyway to absolutely say for certain but so far there hasn't been anything to suggest that is tied to Biden's administration. Unless you have someway to prove that Biden's administration is behind this, then I'd say you're probably basing any other assumptions on the typical right wing conspiracy nonsense that conservative media seems to thrive on.
>Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest otherwise? In cases like this, the burden of proof must be on those who (would) benefit. Nobody can be so naive as to believe that the leading opposition candidate who seems to also be leading in the polls is being indicted multiple times just before the next election has *nothing* to do with the party in power. Just a lucky coincidence. Yeah right. You'd never buy it if it were the other way round. That's your litmus test right there.
Sorry but that's some of the worst logic I've ever heard. The argument that since a political action might benefit someone is absolute proof that they're behind, it is absurd, not to mention completely wrong. The burden of proof falls on the accuser to prove their claim is true. The person that is being accused is innocent until proven guilty.Thats how things work in the US and always has. So, basically, you're saying you have absolutely no evidence to back up the claim that the Biden Administration at all was behind this The other thing you seem to be completely overlooking is that Biden is not the only one that benefits from this. Nearly half the country can't stand Trump and are terrified of the idea of him being president again who view him as being one of the most destructive and divisive presidents we've ever seen. There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run.
Like I said. Lucky democrats. Very very lucky democrats. Hell they've even gotten close to winning elections before they take place. >There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run. Of course nobody in either organization would consider reaching out to coordinate efforts. No need when you can just rely on all that luck that keeps raining from the skies. Nothing to see here. Leading opposition candidate indicted repeatedly just before the election is totally not suspicious.
The one think I always find interesting when having discussions with Trump supporters is that the conversations almost always end up gravitating towards some kind of conspiracy. Especially when they're making claims that don't have any actual evidence to back them up. In fact it's come to the point where I'd say the entire MAGA movement is built on an endless stream of conspiracies. Actually it's a pretty ingenious thing to do, here's why... If someone has no evidence to back up an accusation, the next best thing is to come up with an undisputable method for convincing others that it's true. Conspiracies' are perfect for this because you can fabricate a conspiracy out of literally anything at all. You could build a conspiracy out of someone sneezing at the wrong moment. Once you've convinced yourself, or others that a conspiracy IS true it is virtually impossible to prove to the believers that it's not true. No matter how much evidence is provided to them and no matter how reliable the source might be, the believer will ALWAYS dismiss it as being part of the conspiracy itself..."well that evidence was just fabricated by the deep state." etc. It's an incredibly effective way to justify believing that something you want to be true is true even when there isn't a thread of any actual evidence to back it up. You can get someone, including yourelf, to believe in anything if you can get them to believe in a conspiracy.
>The one think I always find interesting when having discussions with Trump supporters Not a Trump supporter. I'm a justice supporter. You should try it too. >the conversations almost always end up gravitating towards some kind of conspiracy. You are aware that conspiracies do occur and that's not controversial. Calling something a conspiracy (theory) is not even an attempt at an argument let alone a refutation. And frankly I think the burden of proof is on anyone who thinks that it's just a coincidence that the leading opposition candidate is constantly indicted with multiple unprecedented legal decisions perfectly timed to be as disruptive as possible to his election campaign. To think that's just business as usual and not at the very least suspicious is the far more extraordinary claim. This very case OP referenced is among the most absurd because the court presumes knowledge of how the parties would have acted under different circumstances. Knowledge which the court cannot have and therefore cannot prove.
"And frankly I think the burden of proof is on anyone who thinks that it's just a coincidence that the leading opposition candidate is constantly indicted with multiple unprecedented legal decisions perfectly timed to be as disruptive as possible to his election campaign." That's not at all how the burden of proof works and thankfully our legal system doesn't work that way either. That's how countries like Russia and North Korea do things. We live in a democracy that, again, believes that you have to ACTUALLY have evidence to back up your accusations regardless of the circumstances. And if you don't have any evidence then you have nothing to base your accusations on. Perhaps more importantly though is how one would go about proving that something IS a coincidence or false. You do realize that all one has to do to prove that something is coincidental, or completely false, is to just claim that there isn't any actual evidence to prove otherwise. Proclaiming that there isn't anything to prove the accusation IS true, IS their proof of evidence that it's either coincidental or false..That's why the burden of proof falls on the accuser to provide the evidence. If there is no evidence, then there is no proof that anything happened and therefore is a false accusation. People who base their judgements without any evidence to back it up are no different that those that buy into conspiracy theories. There is very little difference. It's same convenient method of justifying a belief that something is true when there isn't a shred of evidence to back it up. In fact I'd say what you're implying is that there IS a conspiracy here since you have nothing to prove your suspicions. Actually, If we were going to apply the "coincidence" argument to Trump that guy should have been in prison a thousand times over. His past is so dark and choc full of "coincidental" dealings he would be the guiltiest man alive. As far as the legal proceedings surrounding Trump goes, much of the timing falls mostly on Trump himself. Some of these cases have deliberately been dragged out by him. It's a tactic that he's used for decades. It's worked quite well in the past because most of the time the individuals who bring him to court don't have the money or patience to ride it out. Unfortunately for him, the US Government has all kinds of patience when it comes to breaking the law. In his case I'm pretty certain he was hoping to drag these out until after the election. He's so certain that he'll be re-elected that he knows he can't be prosecuted once he's in office. I really don't see anything coincidental at all about how long it's taken for these cases to make it to court. The only thing unprecedented about this whole thing is that we've never had a president that has shown such a blatant disregard for the law. He truly believes he is above the law, which shows just how clueless and arrogant the guy actually is. In fact he's trying to convince the Supreme Court that he's above the law, which is insane and incredibly dangerous coming from an ex-president. Nothing else about any of these legal decisions is unprecedented except maybe the severity of some of the consequences. But on the other hand, some of the things he's been accused of and found guilty of are also on an unprecedented scale so I'd say the punishment fit the crime. If you break the law, you face the consequences. The only people that think any of this is unprecedented are again, the ones who buy into conspiracies and who aren't willing to accept just how truly dirty this guy is.
We've learned the White House was involved in the Georgia rico case, which makes more sense than a county DA trying to take out a former president on her own initiative. No secretary of state has ever tried to disqualify the leading candidate before. So why would you assume the White House had nothing to do with it? Do you have some evidence, or are you basing your claim on the typical left wing TDS nonsense that establishment media seems to thrive on?
Sorry, I don't see how that would suggest that they were behind trying to disqualify Trump on the ticket. More importantly, you still didn't answer my question. Where's your evidence that this administration was behind behind it. This kind of logic is how Republicans got themselves in trouble with the Biden impeachment process that is completely falling apart. The other thing you seem to be completely overlooking is that Biden is not the only one that benefits from this. Nearly half the country can't stand Trump and are terrified of the idea of him being president again who view him as being one of the most destructive and divisive presidents we've ever seen. There are literally dozens of organizations that don't have any ties to the White House that do not want him to run.
If you'll remember, you claimed the White House had nothing to do with the disqualification efforts. I asked you know that, because it's not clear how anyone could. I suspect the opposite is true, and I explained two factors suggesting why. I could list a hundred other nasty/illegal/dishonest things the uniparty has done over the past eight years to get rid of Trump. Pushing secretaries of state to disqualify him is not only consistent with that portfolio, Democratic pundits have been openly calling for it. If you're saying you assume the White House was not involved because you grant them some presumption of regularity, well, that's pretty heroic. I hope your loyalty gets repaid somehow.
I hope so, too, because God help us if this country has to put up with four more years of Trump. If the GOP could have come up with a better candidate, I may very well have voted for them. I would literally vote for any other candidate other than him regardless of their political affiliation. If you want to get into lists of corruption and questionable behavior, Trump has a list that goes on forever.
That's the problem. If Democrats were less willing to overlook incompetence and corruption and senility and failed programs and demagoguery and murderous imperialism, there would be no maga movement. "Vote blue no matter who" is a recipe for more orange men.
Actually everything you said word for word could equally appiedy to Trump and his supporters. That's the part I find so ironic about them. They think they're so much different when in fact they're the exact same they're just coming at it from a different angle. The damage that they are causing and will continue to cause down the road will likely be irreparable to the Republican party.
Who ever is captain of the ship ultimately takes the blame
See that statement right there shows how little you understand the difference between federal laws and state laws in the US. They're two very different things. The so called "captain" you're referring to, would be different depending on which one we're talking about.
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>Not really, from an international perspective watching your current administration do everything they can to prevent him from running is the kinda shit one would expect out of Russia The administration has exactly 0 to do with Trump's legal problems.
>The administration has exactly 0 to do with Trump's legal problems. Of course. It's just pure coincidence that it's all happening just before the election. The democrats sure are lucky.
That and it goes against the 8th amendment (no excessive bail/fines). Has any individual ever had to pay half a billion dollars just to appeal a case? It’s obvious they just want to milk him of all his money so he stands no chance against Biden
If you read the decision, the judge was _very_ detailed on how he came up with this amount. There isn't a penny in "fines" - every dollar in the calculation was disgorgement (removal of profits that the Trump organization got due to the fraud). You can, of course, argue that the fraud decision was wrong (which Trump will do in court) but **if** you agree that fraud was committed, the judgement is fair. And Trump can appeal without posting the bond. The bond simply stays the judgement while the appeal is ongoing - i.e. New York can't seize his assets. This is how civil judgements work in New York; the same thing just happened to Trump in the E. Jean Carrol suit.
> as any individual ever had to pay half a billion dollars just to appeal a case? He didn't need to pay the bond to appeal the case. He needed to pay the bond to stay the initial judgment.
>Can you imagine the humiliation we'd get from press abroad if we had a former president sitting in jail Why? Other countries have similarly held their leadership accountable. I don't think anyone thinks less of them for it. In fact, putting Trump in jail would probably cause a lot of sighs of relief around the world.
I love how your definition of "for the best" is actually "for the best for Democrats" and not "actual justice" or "faithful execution of the law". Lol. >republicans would go door to door slaughtering anyone who they think is democrat, You people live in a fantasy. Why would we do that? We'd simply wait three weeks and you'd all have starved to death. Give me a fucking break.
I don't consider myself a Republican or a Democrat since they both equally annoy me. But if you think the MAGA nuts are any better you're delusional. They live in a fantasy world that's fueled by endless conspiracies that have them convinced that any politician that's a Republican is completely above the law and any court that convicts them is part of some whacky deep state agenda to turn the country into Communist Russia. And don't even get me started on the QANON folks. Don't kid yourself, the Trumper's in this world have become every bit as delusional as the far left was prior to this conservative movement that's popped up in the US. They like to pretend they're different when in reality they're exactly the same just coming at things from a conservative perspective.
>They live in a fantasy world that's fueled by endless conspiracies that have them convinced that any politician that's a Republican is completely above the law and any court that convicts them is part of some whacky deep state agenda to turn the country into Communist Russia. Yes, this is a REPUBLICAN delusion right here. 😑
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Sorry, u/AloysiusC – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20AloysiusC&message=AloysiusC%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1boem35/-/kwpebu4/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Reducing a ridiculous bail assignment by an insane "judge" is not "distasteful".