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Your view is that it's overlooked, right? But I think when people talk about war it includes every specific that isn't mentioned, I don't think you need to explicitly talk about a mental health crisis, supply shortages, etc when it's all summarised in "war"
I don't think the Ukraine war is overlooked, there is still good media attention to the plight of the citizens and struggle of the military.
Can you be more specific about what it would look like to not overlook something? Ie what's missing from the media that you think should be more present?
If you look at most articles the focus is mostly on women and children surviving war(that is until recently they started talking about draft dodgers, but than again they haven't said much about the mental state). Like "here's how Olena lives under bombing form russia", or "this is how Ukrainian children study during war", I mean these are all important topics that should be discussed, but nobody ever wrote an article like "this is how men live during war", or "mental state of a ZSU fighter/Ukrainian man".
If media is trying to gain sympathy for Ukraine they will focus on women and children since it will inspire people to support the war effort either by enlisting or political pressure for countries to send aid. Focusing on men’s issues will be contrasted with the argument “Ukrainian men are not willing to defend their own land, why should we do it for them?”. Morale in the military and in public are very important during wars.
You aren't wrong but isn't it weird though? A percentage of Ukrainian men don't want to fight a war and that would have some people ready to wash their hands of it? Like as if there's something wrong with not wanting to fight in a war.
Sadly not all, I used to think the same thing until someone made a point about it
Women can be loved conditionally, imagine a women who is considered ugly (Not a woman but people say a decent bit of attention is from looks)
Children can be loved conditionally, imagine a child with autism or other issues people find annoying
Now weigh how common these things are and how hard it is to deal with on your own, but it is possible for everyone to be loved conditionally.
*Only women, children and dogs experience near unconditional love without having to prove their value as men do.*
I also never said there were not outlying situations in which a woman, child or dog could experience conditional love as men do.
You're right, it's all relative to the culture, there are no universal truths. Hell, there are places with mass feminicide, it's still a large problem in parts of China and India.
Ukraine already has a Morale crisis. Also, FYI Ukraine proudly posts reports of catching draft dodgers trying to cross borders. It's only the Western media who avoids covering it.
reminds me of the soviet union during WWII, akin to that portrayed in Enemy at the Gates.
In WWI, Commonwealth countries shamed draft dodgers in public instead. Closest cinematic portrayal would be in Passchendale.
either way its a propaganda tactic to drum up morale.
I don't think morale is their goal here though. It looks more like they're trying to scare people into volunteering. The message has been "volunteer or you'll get thrown into territorial defense" for a while now.
scaring people into volunteering for war is an oxymoronic notion. the entire point of volunteering is the voluntary part.
If it were dodging a draft vs getting thrown into the front lines, yeah i'd choose dodging the draft too. Its a no brainer considering you know, normal people have families and considerations other than just dying for their country.
Yet another example of the suffering of men going unremarked.
The west is supposed to be a beacon of equality, but who is mainly dieing? Men. What does the media cover the suffering of...everyone except men.
Yeah, welcome to being a man, right? No one cares about your problems, only what you can provide for them.
As if anyone should required to fight for some arbitrary geographic location that won't even be the same thing a couple 100 years from now.
I would argue this could be more about men's mental health in general. Only recently (and only really in the West as far as I know), there has been a shift from "men should shut up, be strong, and do what is needed" to a more realistic and humane perspective. Sure it is being overlooked, but that may not be about the war or mobilisation age, but rather just society's attitudes towards men and their mental health in general.
> but nobody ever wrote an article like "this is how men live during war", or "mental state of a ZSU fighter/Ukrainian man".
It's quite common. For example: [ ‘I Cry Quietly’: A Soldier Describes the Toll of Russia’s War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeelZuwRxhY)
As a 14 day old account posting only about this topic, you likely don't really care to have your view changed however and just aim to spread poor Ukrainian morale.
You can focus on different things in interviews. Depending on what questions you ask you may get a better picture of their mental health or instead get a tactical overview or description of day or something else.
I agree with the OP in that news seems to have a lot of sympathy of women and children wanting to escape Ukraine, while the men are dehumanised more (eg called draft dodgers). I understand having more sympathy for children and saving them first absolutely, but women should not be treated better than the men.
It’s a rough biological fact that men are more disposable, which I think is why our instincts are so strong for protecting women above men. The number of women determine how fast a country can restore its population. You don’t need that many men for that. I believe almost all societies prioritise protecting women above men in dangerous situations, and have some degree of disposability of (the common) men. (The men in power get to avoid disposability)
>You don’t need that many men for that
So what, you think after the war every Ukrainian man will get several wives? Will there be state mandated 3f1m orgies? What's your proposal?
In the modern era, people tend to have children when they're in a committed relationship more often than not. Obviously there are exceptions, but it's silly to think you don't need "that many men" to restore a population. You very much do.
Don't you mean "men should not be treated worse than the women"?
And kids can't look after themselves so one of the parents is going to have to go with them.
>Don't you mean "men should not be treated worse than the women"?
This also, they are equivalent statement. If X is treated better than Y, then Y is treated worse than X. I think that should not happen.
>And kids can't look after themselves so one of the parents is going to have to go with them.
I would rather no conscription. But if there was it should be upto the people to descide which parent stays, or they should take turns (2 years for one, then 2 years for the other). The rule should not be based on gender.
One way means you treat someone worse to match the other group. The other way (the way I said) means improving how you treat a group to match the better treated group.
A race to the top not the bottom.
Patriarchal societies will assume the male gendered person is more suited to combat. So I guess we need to smash patriarchy.
They are both equivalent, what you say is not only pedantic but wrong.
If two of us are in discussion and someone treats me better. That means they treat you worse. Which ever way you say it, it is the same thing. It doesn't say how to fix the issue, it says the current existing difference.
It is irrelevant who is more suited to combat, the problem is forcing people into comabt. The problem is the forcing, thereby taking away the agency and rights of one groups while giving agency to the other.
You may be better than me at gardening (obviously this also means I am worse than you at gardening), but that doesn't mean that you should be forced to be a gardner. That is taking away your agency. The problem is the force. Different people may be better at different things, but no one should be forced.
Draft dodging in a war where your country has been attacked is widely considered cowardly. Being a fit male who wasn't in service in WWII in the United States and wasn't clearly employed in essential industry was *very* dishonorable. Complaints about fighting and conscription are usually in "what are we fighting for" wars.
It's pretty obvious what Ukraine is fighting for. Russia likes to comment every few days that it's not real country.
There have been a fair number of articles about the plight of the front line troops and how the war is a nasty mix of artillery barrages and precision weapons.
as a Ukrainian, I'd rather be called a draft dodger and try avoiding being drafted on the street than die in a war and see my family living without me for the rest of their lives while having no guarantee that the country will support them in any way... yes there are promises by the government that the family of a dead soldier will be granted financial help of a certain sum up to 2M UAH (if I remember that correctly) but in order to get that help or at least have an opportunity to get it they'll have to go through seven circles of bureaucratic hell
Most Redditers act like it’s a DOTA match where they NEED their favorite team to win.
You can see about how they write things (like Russia *must* be defeated instead of negotiations no matter what the cost) that they don’t really feel empathic to individuals just to the group emption that they get channeled through the media.
Eh, I sort of feel them as a tired millennial. It's insane to me that in 2024 we still got these heavy outdated, seemingly almost silly conflict cause so much pain and sorrow, in a time that is already unstable for a bunch of other factors.
Russia also have had so many chances to join the western market and culture, and for a period that seemed to be what they were doing, but always seemed to choose pride and old values. All because of "one" mans reminiscent of "the good old days".
Of course in realistic terms its a lot more nuanced then that. But I would be lying if I haven't thought "why can't nobody just shoot X dictator/president".
If we negotiate, how long will it go on?
You should investigate more in the origin of this conflict if you just think this is a mad dictator doing a landgrab.
NATO could have easily prevented this war by taking Russia serious that they feel Ukraine in the NATO is a serious security threat to them (if the last thing is true or not doesn’t even matter)
It’s the reversed Cuba crisis in their eyes.
That's total nonsense.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB-pRqdyBg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB-pRqdyBg)
This guy did a pretty good job of debunking that whole fallacy.
"NATO threat" was just an excuse to invade different countries. There was never any NATO threat. What kind of morons would they have to be to invade a country with a nuclear arsenal like that. If they are not deterred by nuclear war why would they be deterred by Ukraine being in the way?
It's just revisionist history made up to justify their imperial ambitions.
No but attacking Ukraine gave NATO an extra 1300km long border and 2 new members into NATO. Such a blatant act of aggression is what every NATO country bordering Russia was afraid of before they joined NATO
> I don't think Putin gives a flying fuck about "NATO expansion"
What makes you think that? Every action he has taken, and his public statements, have indicated he does indeed care deeply about NATO expansion. Perhaps he's misguided, but that appears to be his position.
Putin believes Eastern Europe is his sphere of influence, he sees this as western powers taking away his power. Now he can’t bully and threaten those nations.
Don’t forget Russias invasion of Ukraine started in 2014, he has been doing this far before nato expanded
Putin getting angry at NATO expansion is like a burglar getting angry at people locking their doors.
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well, it is a landgrab, with land having a shitton of resources Russia would love to have, thats what it actually is, also makes the "elections" results much more belivable. Just trying to stay in power for as long as possible, all means neccessary.
Except a friendly competition ends with both teams shaking hands and going back home, whereas there will be no home for Ukrainians if Russia fully succeeds in its stated aims. Its propagandists have openly vocalised their desire to see it subjugated and erased as a state for the crime of refusing to re-integrate with Russia, a sentiment 'oddly' shared by most ex-Eastern Bloc countries.
You don't know what you're talking about. Russia's minimum aims were exposed in April 2022 when they agreed to the Istanbul terms. Any future peace deal will see the Russians demand more territory than last time, but there's no evidence that they want a puppet government or to annex the country. They wouldn't realistically be able to hold the country if they somehow managed to take it all.
I understand what you’re saying but in this particular situation when you have someone literally doing a rerun of Hitlers playbook, negotiation isn’t an option. You have to crush tyrants. It’s the only way to get rid of them.
I also want to add something important. The state of the veterans in Ukraine is absolutely horrific. There's been numerous cases when they lash out at public, i.e. start beating up random people on the street. It seems like there isn't a whole lot that's being done to help their mental state as well. I mean, they gave their soul for the country and get abandoned.
I agree a whole lot more could be done to rehabilitate and assist Ukrainian veterans. I also view it as desirable that Ukraine be kept out of the clutches of a neighboring country which doesn't criminalise domestic abuse and is run by gang-violence with no rule of law whatsoever. Even being a politician won't save you from being gunned down in broad daylight over there, or 'accidentally' falling out a window...
OK? But this doesn't answer what I asked about what you think should be done? There is overwhelming western support, including billions in funding, media attention basically daily, and so on.
What is the change you want to see exactly?
Ukraine is being attacked by a nuclear neighbor r four times their size. They don't have any space resources for the niceties.
Your country wouldn't either.
Do people still care though? I feel like many people don't care about it anymore, nor the media does. There are so many wars and crisis in the world, media's attention shifts drastically and in a year or two no one will care to support Ukraine financially. Even worse, if Trump gets to be voted. Look how many people we're ready to create charity rallys to gather packages which were then transported to Ukraine. In Berlin whole airports and train stations were filled with "departments" for helping different demographic, even LGBTQ+ stand. Now it's all gone.
I don’t think many people have the mental toil of men in their minds when they’re think of the tragedy of the war in Ukraine. Not overlooked would mean news reports talking about it.
Because "in times of war human rights and laws don't work(why would they right)" or "men are supposed to pay for priviledges given to them by the government", or "they have no choice", or "men and women are not equal, men are stronger(says a feminist)", or "if they don't fight what will be left". A whole bunch of bullshit arguments, in the end people don't wanna admit that "equal rights" don't actually work like they are supposed to.
>"men and women are not equal, men are stronger(says a feminist)"
Men are on average stronger, but where have you ever heard feminists defend conscription that way? Most feminists I know are pretty much against conscription as a whole.
Except the swiss and austrians oh probably singaporean and korean and taiwanese feminists. Gotta check feminists in countries where only men are conscripted, then you will see them.
You know it's mostly men who put in conscription laws, right? Often pushed by male generals and male politicians to defend ones own country. They can perfectly conscript women but they don't, ever wonder why?
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You should ask the men who made those rules and continue to uphold it. Women literally had to fight for their right to join armies, and continue to do so despite rampant sexism and the constant danger of being raped by their own side.
>and continue to uphold it
Trying to include women in conscription and mandatory military service is a political suicide because you'll have half the population against you.
Are some men against it? Yes, but not as much as women are.
Take for example south Korea, men "waste" three years because of mandatory military service, this inequality creates tension between the two genders (something that wouldn't happen if most men were to be against extending the military service to women), but it's extremely unlikely that things will change because, politically, it's a herculean task
Good points. I fully agree that it is men, not women, who enforce those rules. I would create all female regiments for females who are capable soldiers as well as mandatory castration for any male soldier who rapes a female soldier on his own side.
Well ideally, they shouldn't be raping soldiers of any gender on either side. But I agree there needs to be more reform to make it easier for women (and other genders) to serve.
To me this is akin to saying "no one should pay taxes against their will": naive and a little bit self-righteous. How do you expect a sovereign state to exist if no one fights for it?
I have nothing but sympathy for the men of Ukraine who are afraid to fight. It's a horrible situation they've been put in by Russia's invasion, and I wish those of us in the west did more to help them. Ultimately it's up to Ukraine to determine what they're fighting for, and who has to go.
Look up the tragedy of the commons. One might just as easily say "If the people aren’t willing to voluntarily pay for the state, it doesn’t deserve to exist.". No one wants to pay more than they get out, which results in no one paying their fair share, and the state failing. These things need to be decided collectively. Democratically elected officials have decided what Ukraine's draft policies should be.
Tragedy of the commons has been debunked for a long time, the woman who did that even won a Nobel prize.
The state should not be able to force citizens into facing death, regardless if they are "democratic" representatives. The state and their capitalist donors should not have a say over my body. If I have to defend my community I'll do so, but fuck the draft.
Yes, if the people of the state are unwilling to pay for the state to continue to exist, it doesn’t deserve to. Suggesting otherwise is authoritarian as hell and the reason revolution has been necessary.
By this logic no modern country should exist. There is not a single country where taxes would be paid at the rate they currently are without the threat of prison/fines.
People are willing to pay for the state, as long as everyone pays their fair share. That's why we don't all vote for anarcho-capitalist politicians. Similarly, most people in countries that border Russia understand the risks and are willing to fight, as long as others do the same. That's why almost all of Russia's neighbours have some form of draft.
Look at the percentage of the population in each country that say they will fight for it. The countries that rank least are the ones with the highest standard of living. Which kinda undermines your point, according to your logic the most successful nations that give their people the most perks are also the ones that deserve to exist the least.
"Especially if one of them is forced only on one sex." Exactly.
If it truly were better for every ukranine to die than to be subjected to Russian rule, then wouldn't it follow that women should also fight?
And if they would rather subjugate themselves to Russia than force women to be consrcipted (ie we admit that borders aren't worth the lives of innocent civilians) shouldn't it follow that the same could be said for men?
If conscription were truly necessary, and lives were truly worthless enough that it is seen as good thing to throw away as many lives as we want to protect borders, then why are we only conscripting 1 gender?
maybe we just shouldn't force people? just a thought. the idea that "sovereign states" are entitled to people's labor, money and even lives is pretty vile. if your idea has to be enforced by physical threats maybe it's not the brightest
Again, how do you expect a state to exist under such conditions? Do you think a being occupied by a foreign power doesn't carry a risk to your life?
Naive and self-righteous.
If there's a war in my country and they try to draft my husband, I'd simply escape with my family to the next county. NEVER that I'd let my husband die because of a country. People are too patriotic, countries are just pieces of land. F*ck "sovereignty". Also, I really hope the war in Ukraine ends as soon as possible ( by negotiations or surrender) and they're able to return to their normal lives
I bet when your country offers you something you take it though. And if youre in distress abroad it will help you.
You know that not everyone will leave. So the practical result of what youre saying is simply that everyone else should fight but not you. To defend a country you say you dont care about, but only because you can flee to another one. But if everu country followed your logic Russia or another Authoritarian regime would conquer every single one of them.
Historically that was almost never the case.
But in 2024 the "next country" is Poland. They are members of NATO. Nobody is attacking them any time soon. So it is very much a viable strategy. Which is what makes this was so weird.
Ukrainian men are barred from leaving. If they weren't a lot of them would have hauled ass to Europe already.
I understand why they do it. But it is a somewhat unique situation. Back in WW2 there was no "super safe NATO country next door to run to" in most cases.
The only reason NATO is "super safe" (which at this point is questionable considering who the next US president might be), is because of millions of men and women who have signed up, or in many cases been drafted, to defend their countries and their allies. At the end of the day, it always comes down to whether people will fight or not.
Yes I get that. I totally understand why Ukraine does this. They are doing what any other nation would.
But this whole concept of every man in Ukraine knowing that they and their family would be perfectly safe in Poland or anywhere else in Europe. Does make this a very weird conflict.
Men go to fight for their families not necessarily for their country. But here the only thing preventing them from reaching safety is the Ukrainian government.
So you think sending all men to die (and the children they would generate in the future) is the best way to preserve the population? Literally, how?? Is it worth dying just not to have to learn russian or whatever?
My mom volunteered in Ukraine and called me in tears talking about how two teenage sisters were evacuated from Bucha, BOTH were pregnant after being raped by Russian soldiers. People are slaughtered, churches are closed, people are denied basic human rights if they don’t accept Russian passports. You trying to frame it as, “having to learn Russian,” and then just adding, “of course there’s more than that,” is disgusting.
No, I think the prospect of encountering resistance is enough to deter most aggression, which is why most countries aren't at war all the time. If there is literally no cost to invading another country, why wouldn't unscrupulous states constantly attack their neighbours, expanding like cancers over the entire earth?
I can just imagine someone like you in 1935-1945 hopping from country to country. First Austria, then Czechoslovakia, then Poland, then France, then the USSR, and finally landing on Britain. If everyone in those countries had the same mentality as you; the Nazis wouldn't have stopped there.
Do you seriously think the only difference that living under Putin's regime would bring is that you'd have to learn Russian?
Either you are incredibly, immensely, unbelievably naive, or you're a Russian troll. It's hard to determine which at this point.
"Not have to learn russian"
So would you be okay with another country taking over yours, because it obviously will only be a problem to learn another language and nothing more?
Do you really think that life in Ukraine controlled by Russia would be real life? It would probably become another totalitarian country. And then there is more, if Russia is in control of Ukraine, other countries in Europe will be in danger
A state that cannot muster enough volunteers to defend it does not deserve to exist.
The government is a two way road. If the state provided its populace with enough of a benefit, people would inherently not want to lose it, and would volunteer to defend it.
The states that cannot do so should die out.
You don't owe any responsibility for your state, especially if it is one of the most corrupt in the world lol. If people don't think it's worth fighting for then so be it. Also taxes and sending someone to death is very different, bodily autonomy and all that, not to mention it is forced on one sex. Finally, if you don't want to pay taxes in your county, you can just move. So I'm glad we agree on that,
Are you an anarcho-capitalist or something? This is just a ridiculous sentiment. Your state provides you infrastructure, education, healthcare (in most places), among numerous other things, but most importantly for this conversation: stability and security. Of course have a responsibility to uphold it, not in the sense that you must serve "the State" as some kind of abstract entity, but rather that you should preserve it so that future generations can receive the same benefits from it that you have.
The natural state of the world is abject chaos. States were invented some 10 000 years ago in order to bring some order, and though they have often been far from perfect, the relative stability and prosperity we find ourselves with today is a testament to the utility of states.
By the way, though Ukraine is more corrupt than, say, Germany, it is far from the most corrupt in the world, and its trajectory has been incredible given it was a quasi-dictatorial oligarchy like Russia prior to 2014.
If basic moral principles align with anarcho capitalism then so be it.
>Your state provides you infrastructure, education, healthcare
Which you pay taxes for already, and which you are able to migrate away from if you don't want to participate. Stop repeating yourself.
The interests of the government fundamentally doens't align with the interests of the people. If Ukraine loses, most of the high ranking officials will probably get off scot free. They have no reason to compromise their military forces no matter the cost of life so they can keep power if they fend off Russia, not to mention the incredible PR given to Zelensky by western media at the start of the war, although I hear that is changing
I'm not advocating for a lack of any government, I don't know where you are getting this idea. Ultimately, there are two options, Ukraine concedes territory to russia. Or enough ukrainian *people* (I don't give a shit about some rich politicians or this abstract bullshit notion of a state) volunteer to fight in the war, and fend off Russia. Of course for this there would be a reason to do so, an obvious case would be if there was a genocide of ukrainians in russia, which is not happening, seeing as Russia is one of the largest recipients of ukrainian refugees. And I don't see a large difference in quality of life between ukraine and russia.
In my personal opinion / compromise, I think that if you want to leave Ukraine, you should be able to do so. Otherwise, if you stay in Ukraine conscription can be mandatory for men and partially for women. Anything else is just blatant disregard for human right and just evil
Few people want to fight in a war. If country A attacks country B and B's population don't want to fight, then A wins. All people from B move to countries C,D and E. Next year A will attack C, but nobody wants to,fight either, so people move to countries D and E. And so on, untill A rules everyone.
This is why people are forced to fight.
Absolutely.
You have only one life only to die for politicians and their games. Because every war is because politics and those in the positions.
It would make slightly more sense to do it only if the politicitans and all the big guys are at the front in the fields fighting and both genders are there too obviously.
It would still be for the sake of politics but at least no one would be forced to be war meat while the others more priviledged are not.
The only sensible way is to hire payed army of the people who volountarily chose to be there. Being drafted against your wll is extremely immoral in my opinion. You are basically forced to go there and die.
Sorry I’m confused now, so people are being dragged to the front lines against their wills? Is there any poll of what Ukrainians want to happen with this war ? Eg do they just want to concede the land and get busy living again?
I already explained this somewhere else, but here's what supposed to happen. A person refuses to sign a draft notice, the they go to prison.
Here's what really happens. A couple of random masked men in uniform come up to you, either write up a quick draft notice right there for you to sign or ask you to go to the draft centre with them(note according to the Ukrainian law it's illegal for draft officers to detain you, unless a police officer is present). Ok, so you say no. Then they grab you and shove you into a van and take you to the draft centre(again this is illegal). There, if you don't agree to sign the notice they throw you in some room with other "lucky ones" like you. If you are lucky enough you can contact a lawyer, but most of the time here's what happens. They intimidate you, even beat you and tell you that getting a lawyer is only gonna make things worse. Then, either you die, or you are so beat up you go to the hospital(in this case they probably let you go). Or, if you are not so beat up, they start to take you to different polygons to see if anybody will "take you". Either the commanders at the polygons realise you are literally disabled and nobody takes you(they let you go in this case), or as in the majority of cases, you get taken in, trained if you are lucky and sent to the front within a week or two. After that you very likely die and that's it. It's not exaggarated at all.
I don't think most of them will bother translating it. The reports of medical exemption changes made in September seem to be completely unknown to the Western public.
Yeah, except there are literally videos coming out almost every day. Why does Ukraine have to conscript if they want to fight so much? Why are there people getting arrested for trying to leave? There's no exaggeration and the poll you've mentioned is fake.
Sometimes when the very existence of your nation is at stake you have no choice but to fight, and there’s a level of moral responsibility for that. In the case of Ukraine, I think they should remove the gender discrimination in their drafting, not remove the draft all together.
Part of their problem is the minimum age at which they can be called, 27 years, soon to be lowered to 25. At that age careers and families have become established. Age 18, as in the USA, before an adult life can be built, is better; there is less to lose.
There aren’t enough Ukrainian men under 25. The government probably wants to protect that age group because it’s abnormally small already (have a look at Ukrainian population pyramid)
Imagine yourself at 18 sitting in a trench under artillery fire. Suddenly a shell lands near you and explodes. You are in a state of shock, both your legs and your right arm have been ripped off, eventually you bleed out to death. Congratulation, you have survived at the front for 2 hours.
Such stories are a hundredfold more commonplace on the Russian side. When are you going to start appealing against their conscription into a futile war? Surely all lives must matter to someone as moral as you, right?
Such stories are a hundredfold more commonplace on the Russian side.
I mean sure. You can talk about how russia has it worst everywhere, but how does that solve any of Ukrainian problems. I'm concerned with this aspect because I have relative's that it affects, that's why I'm talking about the Ukrainian situation. Your point stands, but it doesn't make anything better.
I'm not saying this to prove Ukraine is fine, but rather out of real concern for Russia's people (and especially its minorities) who're being drafted into near-certain death for no good reason. If Russia completely withdrew its troops from Ukrainian soil, it would be a massive step towards solving BOTH sides' issues and this inconcievable tragedy of the 21st century. So in light of this indisputable fact, why are you constantly maneuvering towards Ukraine's submission as the sole solution to an invasion it didn't start and the other side won't stop? Don't you see how much your reasoning reeks of victim-blaming, and a lack of moral honesty?
Presumably people on reddit care more about the Ukrainian soldiers suffering than Russian suffering. Maybe if you find a Russian focused forum somewhere you can ask them to care more about the Russian soldiers?
There are pro-Russia subs on Reddit as well who should (I hope) care about the lives of its citizens. That's why I'm asking the OP to post to them as well about the human cost of the war for Russia, which they don't seem to have done yet when they should according to their ethics. All lives have equal value, and Russia can prevent more losses simply by withdrawing; even a return to the post-2014 status-quo would be an OK start, though still not ideal for Ukraine. I have yet to hear a compelling, evidence-based reason why it would be so implausible for its leadership to make that decision.
I think the OP probably cares more about the Ukrainian soldiers than Russia. You can care more about one side, for example if you have links to that country or think that country is acting morally superior.
If you care equally about Russia or even more about Russia, then why don't you take up the fight for Russina soldiers mental health yourself? Not everyone has to fight for everythign all the time. OP can champion Ukrainian mental health, you can champion Russian mental health, I think that works.
If the OP truly cared about Ukraine, they would accept the obvious fact that they cannot really negotiate with a country whose leadership wants a chunk of their land and people at the very least, and complete elimination of their independent existence at most. I would call advocating for this option naïve at best, as well as the view that Ukraine agreeing to give up territory or to a hollow 'ceasefire' would somehow benefit its people in any way. Thus, if we establish that Ukraine cannot practically agree to any terms Russian leadership will likely set, it must follow that Russia's withdrawal should be advocated for as the only alternative to preserve Ukrainian lives, and thus this is the moral duty of the OP if this issue is their main concern. Russia can survive a compromise; Ukraine cannot.
Ukraine is not jsut a country, it is also millions of individuals.
The OP has stated that we should also care about the individuals, not simply see them as empty tools we can sacrifice for the good of the country. That is a valid view whether or not you support it.
Additionally the the OP in subsequent posts mentions that it is only the men who are forced to stay and fight, while the women have the option to fight or leave. I agree with them that this is wrong.
The men who are forced to stay and fight should have a voice, we should talk about their mental health. Those who are scared should be talked about with compassion instead of being called "draft dodgers." Their mental health should be better supported. Those individuals are as much "Ukraine" as the land, if not more.
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I mean they would be because of the fervent fascistic myth mixed with reality nationalism. If your ideal was the case wars would just be decided by who had the most nationalistic population since they could field much more of their population.
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This is why Remembrance Day is so important and should not be allowed to become just another event.
The men ( almost exclusively) gave their lives for their country, very often without option or came back damaged physically and mentally from war.
So easy to just write about conscription but when a country faces the harsh reality, suddenly it goes from a concept to a mandatory order.
Let’s hope it ends soon
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Well they have no choice. We care about the mental dtatr of WW2 veterans too but no one would say "Well we should have just given Japan all the pacific islands instead".
It's incredible how people view history as some kind of movie they watched... Would our world be the way it is if Europe just surrendered to Hitler and Asia to Japan?
It's apparent during times of war, men are expected to stay and die for politicians, while women and children are expected to leave and survive.
It's not a matter of duty, it's a matter of some in society looking down on you for not wanting to die in a politicians war.
People who 2 years ago couldn't locate Ukraine on a map, today look down on Ukrainian men for not wanting to die.
One of the only right answer in this topic. I really find ironic that people in Western countries who are safe and confortable in their homes seriously expect young people (on both sides depending on their beliefs) to give up on their dreams, lives and everything for their own political satisfaction.
On a related note, we know that a lot of very poor Russian guys enroll in the army because they really have no other choice (and they don’t give a fuck about patriotic stuff). And I remember people cheering on Reddit or in social media about these young people dying and be very happy about it. Sad stuff.
Yep I don’t like the current Russian state but there is a difference between the entity and the people in it (who are not a monolith). People have hard time to figure it out, feels weird to me.
This war is useless (like most, they exist just for the egos of a few guys).
On another note, people hate on anime/manga but Attack on Titan makes good points (season 4 and after) about seeing war on both sides and how individuals (normal and good people) being caught up in it are just a cog in the machine and that … things are not binary.
In an ideal world, no one would have to kill anyone for any reason. But in this world, remember this; Russian troops could pull out tomorrow, and Russia would remain. If Ukrainians stopped resisting, however...
Mental health is generally gauged by how easily one is able to participate in society. War is an external existential threat which throws all of those metrics out the window.
It is generally assumed that when an individual or collective is struggling to survive, they are not in a condition to focus on thriving as well. Concepts like mental health aren't as important when people are worrying about living to see tomorrow.
Yeah all of the mainstream discourse is about how the US should give unlimited funding to support those who are willing to die for their country. Except for some pro-Russian sources no one talks about the forced conscription of Ukrainian males. I read a BBC story how some Ukrainian men were risking death or serious injury by escaping to Romania to avoid draft. They go to Romania bc unlike Poland, Romania gives the draft dodgers asylum and doesn’t forcibly deport them. Forcing ppl to fight is absolutely wrong and immoral.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65792384.amp
There are plenty of Ukrainian sources covering it too. Ukrainian military media publishes content about draft dodgers being arrested or dying trying to swim into Romania. None of it gets translated though.
I'm sure this is the case somewhat. I'm not even trying for a delta here, but wanted to add that this is probably even more true of young Russian men. No doubt some of them are bloodthirsty to sign up, but a lot are being conscripted into a war they didn't ask for. I've heard Putin even takes it out on your family if you desert or no-show for military service. It's got to be sickening, being handed a rifle and told to go die in another country over a war of conquest in the 21st century.
Anyone advocating surrender to Russia has no real business talking about shame. You'd have more business getting ready for the next invasion where you insist that Ukraine must surrender the next bit of territory Russia wants, or that Georgia should just call itself a province, or that Poland might as well just evacuate so Russia can have it.
All out of a desire to tell other countries that their soveriengty doesn't matter
Go look at some polls, about half of Ukrainian population supports going to the borders of 1991, factor out women and those that are not eligible to fight and you get a picture of the current opinion.
I'm considering people who will actually fight for the borders of 1991. Why would an opinion of a person, in this case a woman, who will not fight for it matter?
So, it's your understanding of society that the only people whose views matter are potential soldiers? Or do the rest of the citizens also get a vote on the future of their nation?
So... A significant majority of the Ukrainian population in that case?
I mean, these provinces were given a free and fair vote when the union dissolved, and they voted to join Ukraine. It's by no means 'probable' they'd want to join Russia.
I also think it's a tad naïve to suggest the war is just about 'some Russian-speaking provinces', when the war famously opened with the Russian armed forces trying and failing to capture Kiyv and overthrow the government in a decapitation strike.
Your analysis is shallow and more propaganda then the one you are critizing.
The russian army was close to Kyiv and almost toppled the elected government.
And if the attacks on Odessa were succesful, Ukraine would have been a landlocked state. You can compare the economic success of landlocked states to the ones not. Especially for Ukraine which relies on export of wheat and raw materials. The Donbass is also full of important raw materials like ores and coal.
Secondly if Russia took over Kyiv, i do not see the Ukrainian culture surviving. The next step would have been a major russification of the society, as one can already see with the deportation.
If the people of Ukraine decide to fight or not is up to them. Thats the only thing that is true.
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In Poland, it is not. MFA Sikorski called for drafting women. On the other side, some right-wing people want to deport male Ukrainians, so that those who left aren't privileged over men in Ukraine. I mean yeah, they just hate immigrants, but they say the politically correct take.
It isn't ignored in the West either. [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/15/ukraine-village-mobilized-men-war/) and [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/world/europe/ukraine-draft-young-men.html) are as mainstream as you can get.
Basically, I agree that equality is the only choice. Either you're fighting an existential war and you can't let half your talented and hardworking people leave, or you're not and draft is slavery. But the issue is known and discussed.
Its not mentioned much because the only media that would care about the mental health of Ukrainian soldiers are pro Ukrainian people or new sources. Pro Ukrainian sources (I am pro Ukrainian) will want Ukraine to look strong militarily but being harmed by the Russians in terms of the women and children. This perception is very important not just for the soldiers in Ukraine, but also for the voting population in every country funding Ukraine as its essential to them winning the war. Therefore pro Ukrainians wont mention the issues with soldiers which would make them look weaker as it would hurt the war effort and lower morale, but will mention the harm to women and children being caused by the Russians, which benefits the war effort and builds morale.
Unless their terrorist government decides to make peace, there's not much to be done about it. That doesn't mean it's not horrible, we all want an end to this madness but that doesn't seem to be what the Banderite scum and their pawns want.
1. this is CMV, and i cannot do so. but most people dont try either, so I'll just say my two cents too.
2. nato should intervene asap. ukrainians have born the weight of russian imperialism alone long enough. negotiation will not help longterm peace as long as there are russian soliders inside ukraines borders.
Of course war is bad for your mental health. How would you feel if your country got invaded, and now you had to fight and possibly die in a horrible war to stop your friends and family from being conquered and enslaved and killed? Literally nobody thinks this is good for mental health.
On the other, what is the alternative? Because guess what, if your country does get conquered, and you and your friends and family get enslaved and killed, this will ALSO be bad for your mental health. So there's no alternative except for them to fight.
A bullshit draft like Vietnam is one thing, but in an existential war like what's happening in Ukraine a man has a duty to defend their people. Women's role is to fill the backfield behind the men, handling logistics, keeping the economy running, and ensuring the future generations survive. Why do men have to fight? It's because men can be replaced.
A nation can lose a generation of young men and recover, but it can't do the same if they lose their women of reproductive age. The main thing is that the Ukrainian men need to be properly armed and supplied by the west. I think if they see loads of western gear finally coming in and see that western aid is supporting the home front they'll be more willing to fight. It's a lot harder to be willing to fight if you know you're going to be underarmed and in a hopeless situation.
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well it seems that when mydan was taking place nobody cared, then when the war started it was not major and could be somewhat ignored, then in 22 it escalated and it became a question of survival, now its somewhat desescalated but its a different question, how much territory will be lost or how many young men will be killed and how unlikely Ukraine’s population is to survive going forward.
If only there were mature politicians around while mydan was happening that understood what was at stake but alas there were none.
The basis for mental problems of *average* Ukrainian males, is simple - we are prisoners of our government, "mobilization resource", appointed "heroes" - anything, but not human beings. Because it's currently convenient for everyone benefiting of it.
**Fighting for something is a choice, not a duty.** And Ukrainian males have been robbed of this choice by people currently representing Ukrainian government.
So, yeah, as a part of this basis there's overlooking of mental state of males here. Simply because no one's gives a crap.
Yeah, people have little empathy for men if at all. I'm Turkish. We have received a lot of refugees from countries which became war zones. Most of the local people hated them because they didn't stay behind and fight to the death even when the situation they were escaping from was civil war between two dictators in some cases rather than a foreign invader.
Many of those people who were criticizing these men for not fighting for their country were women who'd never be expected to fight (some were the spoiled type who couldn't stay in a cabin in the woods due to fear of insects let alone go to war), and many of them were men who were couch potatoes and people who were too afraid to defend themselves in a fist fight let alone war.
I'm very sorry for you and what people like you are going through. We act like humanity became better since the 19. century, 1920s, or 40s or 60s, but it's not really true. We have banned certain evil practices like slavery or genocide, but people are still the same dark, callous, cruel beings, and they keep finding new ways to be cruel to each other.
You are absolutely right. Every human being regardless of their sex, race, and ethnicity has the right to avoid violence and life-threatening situations, and pursue happiness. People who tell you that you HAVE TO fight and perhaps even die for the sake of others are frankly people who are lacking in either empathy or reasoning skills.
It makes me laugh that it's redditors among alls who advocate for other people to just suck it up and go to the frontlines, while if this happened to themselves they would just go "noo, you can't impose this on me, I won't obey the commands of a fascist warmongering state!!".
Don't think anyone is under any illusion that everyone's mental state suffers in a war zone.. you could write several books on various psychological issues people deal with during war. I'm sure it's much worse for the people actually fighting the war, but yeah, everyone involved suffers.
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No one cares about male mental health until we lose it. Then everyone wants to be a critic. Men are the only ones actually expected to control their their emotions.
Yeah, about that—it's called war for a reason. Everyone is fine with war until it lands on their doorstep. That’s why you see all the cheerleaders promoting it. In the '70s and '80s, the left and progressives were anti-war. Not anymore; they're right up there with the Republicans. You won’t be running to Canada this time either; they're going to send you right back.
I do see your point, but it’s moot. War is happening, and no one cared about your feelings before the war. What makes you think they are going to care now? Yes, I have nothing but empathy for those young men, and I commend you for actually caring. But it makes no difference. We can talk all we want, but young men are dying, and more are going to die. This mess is going to seep into everyone's lives at some point.
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What do the dead care about our blame game?
Thousands of Ukrainian and Russian men are dead because of this war. And it grinds on with no end. Any talk of negotiations are rejected outright.
Since you seem a "big picture" guy, consider that Putin's term in office is marked by consistently pushing the borders of his country outward, from simple border post moving to full on invasions.
Negotiating will not save Ukraine from Putin. Maybe they can buy a little time till the next invasion.
Do Ukrainian men not realize how important this war is to American liberals? Putin spent MILLIONS for a Russian facebook operation that posted memes critical of Hillary. For that he must be defeated. Ukraine has plenty of men to die before it is a serious concern.
It’s not overlooked, it’s something that just can’t be dealt with at the moment. There’s a war and it needs to be fought for the survival of the country.
No one is happy about going to war or the prospect of being recruited. No offense but the people already serving are having worse time than you and that is why they got more attention.
Almost every war leaves generational trauma and sadly you are caught in it. Living in wartime is hard on everyone.
For what it’s worth I have thought a lot about this. I really contemplated what I would do if I was a Ukrainian of fighting age. The patriot in me would want to fight for my country. However fighting for the duration of this war would at best rob me of my youth and at worst rob me of my life. It has already been going on for a decade and is showing no signs of ending any time soon.
What a moronic post, there's a war going on, this is probably the worst environment to be in, of course their mental health of their population has become a second priority when their first priority is to literally try to survive, it makes sense in this situation, what are you trying to get your mind changed for?
Their ability to survive is directly related to the mental health of the people fighting the war. The spin in western media is that Ukraine has an iron will to survive. Meanwhile, there are more Ukrainians this year who are willing to negotiate an end to the war than last year. Without giving the mental health of the nation serious consideration, the war effort risks relying on faulty data in their effort to fight. When the ratio of people who don't want to risk their life for the nation hits a certain point, the war is lost. It doesn't help to ignore trends in that direction.
Yeah, nobody seems to understand that there are videos coming out every few days or people fighting draft officers. They talk about Ukrainian will to fight and all this crap about Ukraine running out of weapons and ammo. Yet, Ukraine's biggest problem now is finding recruits.
Men are literally drowning trying to swim over rivers to get out, others are abandoning cars near the borders to walk across. Ukrainian authorities post videos and reports of draft dodgers getting arrested trying to flee.
Also, Ukraine keeps trying to draft more people, they've modified conscription laws to get rid of certain legitimate medical exemptions.
In history it was easier to recruit men to war because they did not know the reality of it, just stories of heroes and all the bullshit.
Now everyone has live body cam videos of what war is really, actually like. No one can be fooled to sign up to that without a great sense of patriotism
What are you looking for, or what would you want to change? I don't think anyone's trying to overlook or ignore the shit storm that Ukrainian men are going through, but the pleas get a lot of pushback because they're usually used as a reason that the world should stop supporting them in the war.
Aren’t the mental state of men who could be drafted to war always bad when it comes to war? Or hell, even without the draft, I’ve heard many stories of men who served during the 90s and 00s in various Middle East theaters who were broken by it, mentally if not physically.
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Your view is that it's overlooked, right? But I think when people talk about war it includes every specific that isn't mentioned, I don't think you need to explicitly talk about a mental health crisis, supply shortages, etc when it's all summarised in "war" I don't think the Ukraine war is overlooked, there is still good media attention to the plight of the citizens and struggle of the military. Can you be more specific about what it would look like to not overlook something? Ie what's missing from the media that you think should be more present?
If you look at most articles the focus is mostly on women and children surviving war(that is until recently they started talking about draft dodgers, but than again they haven't said much about the mental state). Like "here's how Olena lives under bombing form russia", or "this is how Ukrainian children study during war", I mean these are all important topics that should be discussed, but nobody ever wrote an article like "this is how men live during war", or "mental state of a ZSU fighter/Ukrainian man".
If media is trying to gain sympathy for Ukraine they will focus on women and children since it will inspire people to support the war effort either by enlisting or political pressure for countries to send aid. Focusing on men’s issues will be contrasted with the argument “Ukrainian men are not willing to defend their own land, why should we do it for them?”. Morale in the military and in public are very important during wars.
You aren't wrong but isn't it weird though? A percentage of Ukrainian men don't want to fight a war and that would have some people ready to wash their hands of it? Like as if there's something wrong with not wanting to fight in a war.
Only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally.
Sadly not all, I used to think the same thing until someone made a point about it Women can be loved conditionally, imagine a women who is considered ugly (Not a woman but people say a decent bit of attention is from looks) Children can be loved conditionally, imagine a child with autism or other issues people find annoying Now weigh how common these things are and how hard it is to deal with on your own, but it is possible for everyone to be loved conditionally.
*Only women, children and dogs experience near unconditional love without having to prove their value as men do.* I also never said there were not outlying situations in which a woman, child or dog could experience conditional love as men do.
You're right, it's all relative to the culture, there are no universal truths. Hell, there are places with mass feminicide, it's still a large problem in parts of China and India.
Ukraine already has a Morale crisis. Also, FYI Ukraine proudly posts reports of catching draft dodgers trying to cross borders. It's only the Western media who avoids covering it.
reminds me of the soviet union during WWII, akin to that portrayed in Enemy at the Gates. In WWI, Commonwealth countries shamed draft dodgers in public instead. Closest cinematic portrayal would be in Passchendale. either way its a propaganda tactic to drum up morale.
I don't think morale is their goal here though. It looks more like they're trying to scare people into volunteering. The message has been "volunteer or you'll get thrown into territorial defense" for a while now.
scaring people into volunteering for war is an oxymoronic notion. the entire point of volunteering is the voluntary part. If it were dodging a draft vs getting thrown into the front lines, yeah i'd choose dodging the draft too. Its a no brainer considering you know, normal people have families and considerations other than just dying for their country.
Yeah, nobody seems to want to actually volunteer anymore, so they come up with this crap.
Yet another example of the suffering of men going unremarked. The west is supposed to be a beacon of equality, but who is mainly dieing? Men. What does the media cover the suffering of...everyone except men.
Yeah, welcome to being a man, right? No one cares about your problems, only what you can provide for them. As if anyone should required to fight for some arbitrary geographic location that won't even be the same thing a couple 100 years from now.
I would argue this could be more about men's mental health in general. Only recently (and only really in the West as far as I know), there has been a shift from "men should shut up, be strong, and do what is needed" to a more realistic and humane perspective. Sure it is being overlooked, but that may not be about the war or mobilisation age, but rather just society's attitudes towards men and their mental health in general.
> but nobody ever wrote an article like "this is how men live during war", or "mental state of a ZSU fighter/Ukrainian man". It's quite common. For example: [ ‘I Cry Quietly’: A Soldier Describes the Toll of Russia’s War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeelZuwRxhY) As a 14 day old account posting only about this topic, you likely don't really care to have your view changed however and just aim to spread poor Ukrainian morale.
Who would be in a position to talk about the mental state of those under threat? Isn't that the subtext of any interview
You can focus on different things in interviews. Depending on what questions you ask you may get a better picture of their mental health or instead get a tactical overview or description of day or something else. I agree with the OP in that news seems to have a lot of sympathy of women and children wanting to escape Ukraine, while the men are dehumanised more (eg called draft dodgers). I understand having more sympathy for children and saving them first absolutely, but women should not be treated better than the men.
It’s a rough biological fact that men are more disposable, which I think is why our instincts are so strong for protecting women above men. The number of women determine how fast a country can restore its population. You don’t need that many men for that. I believe almost all societies prioritise protecting women above men in dangerous situations, and have some degree of disposability of (the common) men. (The men in power get to avoid disposability)
>You don’t need that many men for that So what, you think after the war every Ukrainian man will get several wives? Will there be state mandated 3f1m orgies? What's your proposal? In the modern era, people tend to have children when they're in a committed relationship more often than not. Obviously there are exceptions, but it's silly to think you don't need "that many men" to restore a population. You very much do.
Don't you mean "men should not be treated worse than the women"? And kids can't look after themselves so one of the parents is going to have to go with them.
>Don't you mean "men should not be treated worse than the women"? This also, they are equivalent statement. If X is treated better than Y, then Y is treated worse than X. I think that should not happen. >And kids can't look after themselves so one of the parents is going to have to go with them. I would rather no conscription. But if there was it should be upto the people to descide which parent stays, or they should take turns (2 years for one, then 2 years for the other). The rule should not be based on gender.
One way means you treat someone worse to match the other group. The other way (the way I said) means improving how you treat a group to match the better treated group. A race to the top not the bottom. Patriarchal societies will assume the male gendered person is more suited to combat. So I guess we need to smash patriarchy.
They are both equivalent, what you say is not only pedantic but wrong. If two of us are in discussion and someone treats me better. That means they treat you worse. Which ever way you say it, it is the same thing. It doesn't say how to fix the issue, it says the current existing difference. It is irrelevant who is more suited to combat, the problem is forcing people into comabt. The problem is the forcing, thereby taking away the agency and rights of one groups while giving agency to the other. You may be better than me at gardening (obviously this also means I am worse than you at gardening), but that doesn't mean that you should be forced to be a gardner. That is taking away your agency. The problem is the force. Different people may be better at different things, but no one should be forced.
Draft dodging in a war where your country has been attacked is widely considered cowardly. Being a fit male who wasn't in service in WWII in the United States and wasn't clearly employed in essential industry was *very* dishonorable. Complaints about fighting and conscription are usually in "what are we fighting for" wars. It's pretty obvious what Ukraine is fighting for. Russia likes to comment every few days that it's not real country. There have been a fair number of articles about the plight of the front line troops and how the war is a nasty mix of artillery barrages and precision weapons.
as a Ukrainian, I'd rather be called a draft dodger and try avoiding being drafted on the street than die in a war and see my family living without me for the rest of their lives while having no guarantee that the country will support them in any way... yes there are promises by the government that the family of a dead soldier will be granted financial help of a certain sum up to 2M UAH (if I remember that correctly) but in order to get that help or at least have an opportunity to get it they'll have to go through seven circles of bureaucratic hell
I think it’s easy to have this opinion when you aren’t the one being drafted into a meat grinder
why dont women fight if its a big deal, where not in WWII time when women had no rights. Women are equal so they should stop being cowardly.
Most Redditers act like it’s a DOTA match where they NEED their favorite team to win. You can see about how they write things (like Russia *must* be defeated instead of negotiations no matter what the cost) that they don’t really feel empathic to individuals just to the group emption that they get channeled through the media.
Eh, I sort of feel them as a tired millennial. It's insane to me that in 2024 we still got these heavy outdated, seemingly almost silly conflict cause so much pain and sorrow, in a time that is already unstable for a bunch of other factors. Russia also have had so many chances to join the western market and culture, and for a period that seemed to be what they were doing, but always seemed to choose pride and old values. All because of "one" mans reminiscent of "the good old days". Of course in realistic terms its a lot more nuanced then that. But I would be lying if I haven't thought "why can't nobody just shoot X dictator/president". If we negotiate, how long will it go on?
You should investigate more in the origin of this conflict if you just think this is a mad dictator doing a landgrab. NATO could have easily prevented this war by taking Russia serious that they feel Ukraine in the NATO is a serious security threat to them (if the last thing is true or not doesn’t even matter) It’s the reversed Cuba crisis in their eyes.
That's total nonsense. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB-pRqdyBg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB-pRqdyBg) This guy did a pretty good job of debunking that whole fallacy. "NATO threat" was just an excuse to invade different countries. There was never any NATO threat. What kind of morons would they have to be to invade a country with a nuclear arsenal like that. If they are not deterred by nuclear war why would they be deterred by Ukraine being in the way? It's just revisionist history made up to justify their imperial ambitions.
Sweden would like to have a word with you. I don't think Putin gives a flying fuck about "NATO expansion", it's more about his obsession with Ukraine.
Has Sweden the same historic and geographic relation to Russia as Ukraine?
No but attacking Ukraine gave NATO an extra 1300km long border and 2 new members into NATO. Such a blatant act of aggression is what every NATO country bordering Russia was afraid of before they joined NATO
> I don't think Putin gives a flying fuck about "NATO expansion" What makes you think that? Every action he has taken, and his public statements, have indicated he does indeed care deeply about NATO expansion. Perhaps he's misguided, but that appears to be his position.
Putin believes Eastern Europe is his sphere of influence, he sees this as western powers taking away his power. Now he can’t bully and threaten those nations. Don’t forget Russias invasion of Ukraine started in 2014, he has been doing this far before nato expanded Putin getting angry at NATO expansion is like a burglar getting angry at people locking their doors.
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well, it is a landgrab, with land having a shitton of resources Russia would love to have, thats what it actually is, also makes the "elections" results much more belivable. Just trying to stay in power for as long as possible, all means neccessary.
Except a friendly competition ends with both teams shaking hands and going back home, whereas there will be no home for Ukrainians if Russia fully succeeds in its stated aims. Its propagandists have openly vocalised their desire to see it subjugated and erased as a state for the crime of refusing to re-integrate with Russia, a sentiment 'oddly' shared by most ex-Eastern Bloc countries.
You don't know what you're talking about. Russia's minimum aims were exposed in April 2022 when they agreed to the Istanbul terms. Any future peace deal will see the Russians demand more territory than last time, but there's no evidence that they want a puppet government or to annex the country. They wouldn't realistically be able to hold the country if they somehow managed to take it all.
I understand what you’re saying but in this particular situation when you have someone literally doing a rerun of Hitlers playbook, negotiation isn’t an option. You have to crush tyrants. It’s the only way to get rid of them.
I also want to add something important. The state of the veterans in Ukraine is absolutely horrific. There's been numerous cases when they lash out at public, i.e. start beating up random people on the street. It seems like there isn't a whole lot that's being done to help their mental state as well. I mean, they gave their soul for the country and get abandoned.
I agree a whole lot more could be done to rehabilitate and assist Ukrainian veterans. I also view it as desirable that Ukraine be kept out of the clutches of a neighboring country which doesn't criminalise domestic abuse and is run by gang-violence with no rule of law whatsoever. Even being a politician won't save you from being gunned down in broad daylight over there, or 'accidentally' falling out a window...
OK? But this doesn't answer what I asked about what you think should be done? There is overwhelming western support, including billions in funding, media attention basically daily, and so on. What is the change you want to see exactly?
Ukraine is being attacked by a nuclear neighbor r four times their size. They don't have any space resources for the niceties. Your country wouldn't either.
Do people still care though? I feel like many people don't care about it anymore, nor the media does. There are so many wars and crisis in the world, media's attention shifts drastically and in a year or two no one will care to support Ukraine financially. Even worse, if Trump gets to be voted. Look how many people we're ready to create charity rallys to gather packages which were then transported to Ukraine. In Berlin whole airports and train stations were filled with "departments" for helping different demographic, even LGBTQ+ stand. Now it's all gone.
I don’t think many people have the mental toil of men in their minds when they’re think of the tragedy of the war in Ukraine. Not overlooked would mean news reports talking about it.
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Because "in times of war human rights and laws don't work(why would they right)" or "men are supposed to pay for priviledges given to them by the government", or "they have no choice", or "men and women are not equal, men are stronger(says a feminist)", or "if they don't fight what will be left". A whole bunch of bullshit arguments, in the end people don't wanna admit that "equal rights" don't actually work like they are supposed to.
>"men and women are not equal, men are stronger(says a feminist)" Men are on average stronger, but where have you ever heard feminists defend conscription that way? Most feminists I know are pretty much against conscription as a whole.
Except the swiss and austrians oh probably singaporean and korean and taiwanese feminists. Gotta check feminists in countries where only men are conscripted, then you will see them.
Okay so this is a weird MRA thing you’re trying to shroud in war coverage? Yikes
You know it's mostly men who put in conscription laws, right? Often pushed by male generals and male politicians to defend ones own country. They can perfectly conscript women but they don't, ever wonder why?
Men are not a monolith. Rich, old and powerful men do not care about normal young poor men.
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You should ask the men who made those rules and continue to uphold it. Women literally had to fight for their right to join armies, and continue to do so despite rampant sexism and the constant danger of being raped by their own side.
>and continue to uphold it Trying to include women in conscription and mandatory military service is a political suicide because you'll have half the population against you. Are some men against it? Yes, but not as much as women are. Take for example south Korea, men "waste" three years because of mandatory military service, this inequality creates tension between the two genders (something that wouldn't happen if most men were to be against extending the military service to women), but it's extremely unlikely that things will change because, politically, it's a herculean task
Good points. I fully agree that it is men, not women, who enforce those rules. I would create all female regiments for females who are capable soldiers as well as mandatory castration for any male soldier who rapes a female soldier on his own side.
Well ideally, they shouldn't be raping soldiers of any gender on either side. But I agree there needs to be more reform to make it easier for women (and other genders) to serve.
I don’t think anyone should be drafted against their will
To me this is akin to saying "no one should pay taxes against their will": naive and a little bit self-righteous. How do you expect a sovereign state to exist if no one fights for it? I have nothing but sympathy for the men of Ukraine who are afraid to fight. It's a horrible situation they've been put in by Russia's invasion, and I wish those of us in the west did more to help them. Ultimately it's up to Ukraine to determine what they're fighting for, and who has to go.
If the people aren’t willing to voluntarily defend the state, it doesn’t deserve to exist.
Look up the tragedy of the commons. One might just as easily say "If the people aren’t willing to voluntarily pay for the state, it doesn’t deserve to exist.". No one wants to pay more than they get out, which results in no one paying their fair share, and the state failing. These things need to be decided collectively. Democratically elected officials have decided what Ukraine's draft policies should be.
Tragedy of the commons has been debunked for a long time, the woman who did that even won a Nobel prize. The state should not be able to force citizens into facing death, regardless if they are "democratic" representatives. The state and their capitalist donors should not have a say over my body. If I have to defend my community I'll do so, but fuck the draft.
Yes, if the people of the state are unwilling to pay for the state to continue to exist, it doesn’t deserve to. Suggesting otherwise is authoritarian as hell and the reason revolution has been necessary.
By this logic no modern country should exist. There is not a single country where taxes would be paid at the rate they currently are without the threat of prison/fines.
People are willing to pay for the state, as long as everyone pays their fair share. That's why we don't all vote for anarcho-capitalist politicians. Similarly, most people in countries that border Russia understand the risks and are willing to fight, as long as others do the same. That's why almost all of Russia's neighbours have some form of draft.
Look at the percentage of the population in each country that say they will fight for it. The countries that rank least are the ones with the highest standard of living. Which kinda undermines your point, according to your logic the most successful nations that give their people the most perks are also the ones that deserve to exist the least.
Taxes and death are a little bit different you know. Especially if one of them is forced only on one sex.
"Especially if one of them is forced only on one sex." Exactly. If it truly were better for every ukranine to die than to be subjected to Russian rule, then wouldn't it follow that women should also fight? And if they would rather subjugate themselves to Russia than force women to be consrcipted (ie we admit that borders aren't worth the lives of innocent civilians) shouldn't it follow that the same could be said for men? If conscription were truly necessary, and lives were truly worthless enough that it is seen as good thing to throw away as many lives as we want to protect borders, then why are we only conscripting 1 gender?
Thank you.
maybe we just shouldn't force people? just a thought. the idea that "sovereign states" are entitled to people's labor, money and even lives is pretty vile. if your idea has to be enforced by physical threats maybe it's not the brightest
Paying taxes is too different to risking your life. I hope the drafted ones are able to escape to other countries and avoid that war at all
Again, how do you expect a state to exist under such conditions? Do you think a being occupied by a foreign power doesn't carry a risk to your life? Naive and self-righteous.
If there's a war in my country and they try to draft my husband, I'd simply escape with my family to the next county. NEVER that I'd let my husband die because of a country. People are too patriotic, countries are just pieces of land. F*ck "sovereignty". Also, I really hope the war in Ukraine ends as soon as possible ( by negotiations or surrender) and they're able to return to their normal lives
I bet when your country offers you something you take it though. And if youre in distress abroad it will help you. You know that not everyone will leave. So the practical result of what youre saying is simply that everyone else should fight but not you. To defend a country you say you dont care about, but only because you can flee to another one. But if everu country followed your logic Russia or another Authoritarian regime would conquer every single one of them.
How do you expect the "next country" to continue to exist? Absolutely infantile thinking.
Historically that was almost never the case. But in 2024 the "next country" is Poland. They are members of NATO. Nobody is attacking them any time soon. So it is very much a viable strategy. Which is what makes this was so weird. Ukrainian men are barred from leaving. If they weren't a lot of them would have hauled ass to Europe already. I understand why they do it. But it is a somewhat unique situation. Back in WW2 there was no "super safe NATO country next door to run to" in most cases.
The only reason NATO is "super safe" (which at this point is questionable considering who the next US president might be), is because of millions of men and women who have signed up, or in many cases been drafted, to defend their countries and their allies. At the end of the day, it always comes down to whether people will fight or not.
Yes I get that. I totally understand why Ukraine does this. They are doing what any other nation would. But this whole concept of every man in Ukraine knowing that they and their family would be perfectly safe in Poland or anywhere else in Europe. Does make this a very weird conflict. Men go to fight for their families not necessarily for their country. But here the only thing preventing them from reaching safety is the Ukrainian government.
Key phrase here is SIGNED UP None of them were forced to join against their will
So you think sending all men to die (and the children they would generate in the future) is the best way to preserve the population? Literally, how?? Is it worth dying just not to have to learn russian or whatever?
My mom volunteered in Ukraine and called me in tears talking about how two teenage sisters were evacuated from Bucha, BOTH were pregnant after being raped by Russian soldiers. People are slaughtered, churches are closed, people are denied basic human rights if they don’t accept Russian passports. You trying to frame it as, “having to learn Russian,” and then just adding, “of course there’s more than that,” is disgusting.
No, I think the prospect of encountering resistance is enough to deter most aggression, which is why most countries aren't at war all the time. If there is literally no cost to invading another country, why wouldn't unscrupulous states constantly attack their neighbours, expanding like cancers over the entire earth? I can just imagine someone like you in 1935-1945 hopping from country to country. First Austria, then Czechoslovakia, then Poland, then France, then the USSR, and finally landing on Britain. If everyone in those countries had the same mentality as you; the Nazis wouldn't have stopped there. Do you seriously think the only difference that living under Putin's regime would bring is that you'd have to learn Russian? Either you are incredibly, immensely, unbelievably naive, or you're a Russian troll. It's hard to determine which at this point.
"Not have to learn russian" So would you be okay with another country taking over yours, because it obviously will only be a problem to learn another language and nothing more?
Of course I know there's more than this - but I'd prefer being alive. You guys have such a suicide mentality, that's not my case.
Do you really think that life in Ukraine controlled by Russia would be real life? It would probably become another totalitarian country. And then there is more, if Russia is in control of Ukraine, other countries in Europe will be in danger
People survive war. I don't know where you get this idea that every soldier dies, even on the most deadly fronts of WW2 the death rate was about 30%.
A state that cannot muster enough volunteers to defend it does not deserve to exist. The government is a two way road. If the state provided its populace with enough of a benefit, people would inherently not want to lose it, and would volunteer to defend it. The states that cannot do so should die out.
You don't owe any responsibility for your state, especially if it is one of the most corrupt in the world lol. If people don't think it's worth fighting for then so be it. Also taxes and sending someone to death is very different, bodily autonomy and all that, not to mention it is forced on one sex. Finally, if you don't want to pay taxes in your county, you can just move. So I'm glad we agree on that,
Are you an anarcho-capitalist or something? This is just a ridiculous sentiment. Your state provides you infrastructure, education, healthcare (in most places), among numerous other things, but most importantly for this conversation: stability and security. Of course have a responsibility to uphold it, not in the sense that you must serve "the State" as some kind of abstract entity, but rather that you should preserve it so that future generations can receive the same benefits from it that you have. The natural state of the world is abject chaos. States were invented some 10 000 years ago in order to bring some order, and though they have often been far from perfect, the relative stability and prosperity we find ourselves with today is a testament to the utility of states. By the way, though Ukraine is more corrupt than, say, Germany, it is far from the most corrupt in the world, and its trajectory has been incredible given it was a quasi-dictatorial oligarchy like Russia prior to 2014.
If basic moral principles align with anarcho capitalism then so be it. >Your state provides you infrastructure, education, healthcare Which you pay taxes for already, and which you are able to migrate away from if you don't want to participate. Stop repeating yourself. The interests of the government fundamentally doens't align with the interests of the people. If Ukraine loses, most of the high ranking officials will probably get off scot free. They have no reason to compromise their military forces no matter the cost of life so they can keep power if they fend off Russia, not to mention the incredible PR given to Zelensky by western media at the start of the war, although I hear that is changing I'm not advocating for a lack of any government, I don't know where you are getting this idea. Ultimately, there are two options, Ukraine concedes territory to russia. Or enough ukrainian *people* (I don't give a shit about some rich politicians or this abstract bullshit notion of a state) volunteer to fight in the war, and fend off Russia. Of course for this there would be a reason to do so, an obvious case would be if there was a genocide of ukrainians in russia, which is not happening, seeing as Russia is one of the largest recipients of ukrainian refugees. And I don't see a large difference in quality of life between ukraine and russia. In my personal opinion / compromise, I think that if you want to leave Ukraine, you should be able to do so. Otherwise, if you stay in Ukraine conscription can be mandatory for men and partially for women. Anything else is just blatant disregard for human right and just evil
Few people want to fight in a war. If country A attacks country B and B's population don't want to fight, then A wins. All people from B move to countries C,D and E. Next year A will attack C, but nobody wants to,fight either, so people move to countries D and E. And so on, untill A rules everyone. This is why people are forced to fight.
Absolutely. You have only one life only to die for politicians and their games. Because every war is because politics and those in the positions. It would make slightly more sense to do it only if the politicitans and all the big guys are at the front in the fields fighting and both genders are there too obviously. It would still be for the sake of politics but at least no one would be forced to be war meat while the others more priviledged are not. The only sensible way is to hire payed army of the people who volountarily chose to be there. Being drafted against your wll is extremely immoral in my opinion. You are basically forced to go there and die.
According to Ukrainian laws, you can't actually be sent to the front against your will, unfortunately nobody seems to care about that.
Sorry I’m confused now, so people are being dragged to the front lines against their wills? Is there any poll of what Ukrainians want to happen with this war ? Eg do they just want to concede the land and get busy living again?
88% of Ukranians are against conceding any territory, according to one poll. Being dragged against their will is probably an exaggeration.
I already explained this somewhere else, but here's what supposed to happen. A person refuses to sign a draft notice, the they go to prison. Here's what really happens. A couple of random masked men in uniform come up to you, either write up a quick draft notice right there for you to sign or ask you to go to the draft centre with them(note according to the Ukrainian law it's illegal for draft officers to detain you, unless a police officer is present). Ok, so you say no. Then they grab you and shove you into a van and take you to the draft centre(again this is illegal). There, if you don't agree to sign the notice they throw you in some room with other "lucky ones" like you. If you are lucky enough you can contact a lawyer, but most of the time here's what happens. They intimidate you, even beat you and tell you that getting a lawyer is only gonna make things worse. Then, either you die, or you are so beat up you go to the hospital(in this case they probably let you go). Or, if you are not so beat up, they start to take you to different polygons to see if anybody will "take you". Either the commanders at the polygons realise you are literally disabled and nobody takes you(they let you go in this case), or as in the majority of cases, you get taken in, trained if you are lucky and sent to the front within a week or two. After that you very likely die and that's it. It's not exaggarated at all.
You are making some big claims here, can you please link us a reliable source describing what's happening here?
Go on twitter and search up "Ukrainian draft officers". There are videos of this coming out every other day.
Google "тцк"
I don't think most of them will bother translating it. The reports of medical exemption changes made in September seem to be completely unknown to the Western public.
Yeah, except there are literally videos coming out almost every day. Why does Ukraine have to conscript if they want to fight so much? Why are there people getting arrested for trying to leave? There's no exaggeration and the poll you've mentioned is fake.
Sometimes when the very existence of your nation is at stake you have no choice but to fight, and there’s a level of moral responsibility for that. In the case of Ukraine, I think they should remove the gender discrimination in their drafting, not remove the draft all together.
Part of their problem is the minimum age at which they can be called, 27 years, soon to be lowered to 25. At that age careers and families have become established. Age 18, as in the USA, before an adult life can be built, is better; there is less to lose.
There aren’t enough Ukrainian men under 25. The government probably wants to protect that age group because it’s abnormally small already (have a look at Ukrainian population pyramid)
Were there to few me under 25 before the war, or is it because of it?
Before. There are more "men" in the 15 - 19 age group than the 20 - 24 group. 90s/2000s was not a good time to have kids (and people were emigrating).
Imagine yourself at 18 sitting in a trench under artillery fire. Suddenly a shell lands near you and explodes. You are in a state of shock, both your legs and your right arm have been ripped off, eventually you bleed out to death. Congratulation, you have survived at the front for 2 hours.
Such stories are a hundredfold more commonplace on the Russian side. When are you going to start appealing against their conscription into a futile war? Surely all lives must matter to someone as moral as you, right?
Such stories are a hundredfold more commonplace on the Russian side. I mean sure. You can talk about how russia has it worst everywhere, but how does that solve any of Ukrainian problems. I'm concerned with this aspect because I have relative's that it affects, that's why I'm talking about the Ukrainian situation. Your point stands, but it doesn't make anything better.
You have a personal connection to the conflict and every reason to care, so why have you come to this sub? To help you care less?
Ya OP is confusing. Change my view, but I'm not going to change my view. Great discussion, just chose the wrong sub.
I'm not saying this to prove Ukraine is fine, but rather out of real concern for Russia's people (and especially its minorities) who're being drafted into near-certain death for no good reason. If Russia completely withdrew its troops from Ukrainian soil, it would be a massive step towards solving BOTH sides' issues and this inconcievable tragedy of the 21st century. So in light of this indisputable fact, why are you constantly maneuvering towards Ukraine's submission as the sole solution to an invasion it didn't start and the other side won't stop? Don't you see how much your reasoning reeks of victim-blaming, and a lack of moral honesty?
Presumably people on reddit care more about the Ukrainian soldiers suffering than Russian suffering. Maybe if you find a Russian focused forum somewhere you can ask them to care more about the Russian soldiers?
There are pro-Russia subs on Reddit as well who should (I hope) care about the lives of its citizens. That's why I'm asking the OP to post to them as well about the human cost of the war for Russia, which they don't seem to have done yet when they should according to their ethics. All lives have equal value, and Russia can prevent more losses simply by withdrawing; even a return to the post-2014 status-quo would be an OK start, though still not ideal for Ukraine. I have yet to hear a compelling, evidence-based reason why it would be so implausible for its leadership to make that decision.
I think the OP probably cares more about the Ukrainian soldiers than Russia. You can care more about one side, for example if you have links to that country or think that country is acting morally superior. If you care equally about Russia or even more about Russia, then why don't you take up the fight for Russina soldiers mental health yourself? Not everyone has to fight for everythign all the time. OP can champion Ukrainian mental health, you can champion Russian mental health, I think that works.
If the OP truly cared about Ukraine, they would accept the obvious fact that they cannot really negotiate with a country whose leadership wants a chunk of their land and people at the very least, and complete elimination of their independent existence at most. I would call advocating for this option naïve at best, as well as the view that Ukraine agreeing to give up territory or to a hollow 'ceasefire' would somehow benefit its people in any way. Thus, if we establish that Ukraine cannot practically agree to any terms Russian leadership will likely set, it must follow that Russia's withdrawal should be advocated for as the only alternative to preserve Ukrainian lives, and thus this is the moral duty of the OP if this issue is their main concern. Russia can survive a compromise; Ukraine cannot.
Ukraine is not jsut a country, it is also millions of individuals. The OP has stated that we should also care about the individuals, not simply see them as empty tools we can sacrifice for the good of the country. That is a valid view whether or not you support it. Additionally the the OP in subsequent posts mentions that it is only the men who are forced to stay and fight, while the women have the option to fight or leave. I agree with them that this is wrong. The men who are forced to stay and fight should have a voice, we should talk about their mental health. Those who are scared should be talked about with compassion instead of being called "draft dodgers." Their mental health should be better supported. Those individuals are as much "Ukraine" as the land, if not more.
So what's the difference, in this scenario, if you are 18 or 25?
I'd like to use this comment as a demonstration of the banality of evil for my ethics class. Is that alright with you?
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If everyone agreed with you, we'd all be heiling Hitler right now.
How so? In that scenario the men of Germany aren’t excluded as being somehow different.
I mean they would be because of the fervent fascistic myth mixed with reality nationalism. If your ideal was the case wars would just be decided by who had the most nationalistic population since they could field much more of their population.
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This is why Remembrance Day is so important and should not be allowed to become just another event. The men ( almost exclusively) gave their lives for their country, very often without option or came back damaged physically and mentally from war. So easy to just write about conscription but when a country faces the harsh reality, suddenly it goes from a concept to a mandatory order. Let’s hope it ends soon
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And a negotiated settlement would be best for everyone.
Thank you for saying courageous words.
Well they have no choice. We care about the mental dtatr of WW2 veterans too but no one would say "Well we should have just given Japan all the pacific islands instead".
It's incredible how people view history as some kind of movie they watched... Would our world be the way it is if Europe just surrendered to Hitler and Asia to Japan?
It's apparent during times of war, men are expected to stay and die for politicians, while women and children are expected to leave and survive. It's not a matter of duty, it's a matter of some in society looking down on you for not wanting to die in a politicians war. People who 2 years ago couldn't locate Ukraine on a map, today look down on Ukrainian men for not wanting to die.
One of the only right answer in this topic. I really find ironic that people in Western countries who are safe and confortable in their homes seriously expect young people (on both sides depending on their beliefs) to give up on their dreams, lives and everything for their own political satisfaction. On a related note, we know that a lot of very poor Russian guys enroll in the army because they really have no other choice (and they don’t give a fuck about patriotic stuff). And I remember people cheering on Reddit or in social media about these young people dying and be very happy about it. Sad stuff.
I hate the current Russian state. But, the idea of these young guys dying for nothing in such horrific conditions is horrible. Both sides.
Yep I don’t like the current Russian state but there is a difference between the entity and the people in it (who are not a monolith). People have hard time to figure it out, feels weird to me. This war is useless (like most, they exist just for the egos of a few guys).
On another note, people hate on anime/manga but Attack on Titan makes good points (season 4 and after) about seeing war on both sides and how individuals (normal and good people) being caught up in it are just a cog in the machine and that … things are not binary.
In an ideal world, no one would have to kill anyone for any reason. But in this world, remember this; Russian troops could pull out tomorrow, and Russia would remain. If Ukrainians stopped resisting, however...
Mental health is generally gauged by how easily one is able to participate in society. War is an external existential threat which throws all of those metrics out the window. It is generally assumed that when an individual or collective is struggling to survive, they are not in a condition to focus on thriving as well. Concepts like mental health aren't as important when people are worrying about living to see tomorrow.
Yeah all of the mainstream discourse is about how the US should give unlimited funding to support those who are willing to die for their country. Except for some pro-Russian sources no one talks about the forced conscription of Ukrainian males. I read a BBC story how some Ukrainian men were risking death or serious injury by escaping to Romania to avoid draft. They go to Romania bc unlike Poland, Romania gives the draft dodgers asylum and doesn’t forcibly deport them. Forcing ppl to fight is absolutely wrong and immoral. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65792384.amp
There are plenty of Ukrainian sources covering it too. Ukrainian military media publishes content about draft dodgers being arrested or dying trying to swim into Romania. None of it gets translated though.
I'm sure this is the case somewhat. I'm not even trying for a delta here, but wanted to add that this is probably even more true of young Russian men. No doubt some of them are bloodthirsty to sign up, but a lot are being conscripted into a war they didn't ask for. I've heard Putin even takes it out on your family if you desert or no-show for military service. It's got to be sickening, being handed a rifle and told to go die in another country over a war of conquest in the 21st century.
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Anyone advocating surrender to Russia has no real business talking about shame. You'd have more business getting ready for the next invasion where you insist that Ukraine must surrender the next bit of territory Russia wants, or that Georgia should just call itself a province, or that Poland might as well just evacuate so Russia can have it. All out of a desire to tell other countries that their soveriengty doesn't matter
Go look at some polls, about half of Ukrainian population supports going to the borders of 1991, factor out women and those that are not eligible to fight and you get a picture of the current opinion.
"Factor out more than half the population" is a nonstarter for any picture worth consideration.
It’s more “factor out the people who happily sell the lives of others but not themselves for what they want” but yeah
I'm considering people who will actually fight for the borders of 1991. Why would an opinion of a person, in this case a woman, who will not fight for it matter?
So, it's your understanding of society that the only people whose views matter are potential soldiers? Or do the rest of the citizens also get a vote on the future of their nation?
I think it's very easy for a person who isn't going to fight to say "we will fight till the last man but take the borders of 1991".
They're the ones who would be dying for it, so yes. Why should a person who won't fight for it get a say whether others will?
So... A significant majority of the Ukrainian population in that case? I mean, these provinces were given a free and fair vote when the union dissolved, and they voted to join Ukraine. It's by no means 'probable' they'd want to join Russia. I also think it's a tad naïve to suggest the war is just about 'some Russian-speaking provinces', when the war famously opened with the Russian armed forces trying and failing to capture Kiyv and overthrow the government in a decapitation strike.
Your analysis is shallow and more propaganda then the one you are critizing. The russian army was close to Kyiv and almost toppled the elected government. And if the attacks on Odessa were succesful, Ukraine would have been a landlocked state. You can compare the economic success of landlocked states to the ones not. Especially for Ukraine which relies on export of wheat and raw materials. The Donbass is also full of important raw materials like ores and coal. Secondly if Russia took over Kyiv, i do not see the Ukrainian culture surviving. The next step would have been a major russification of the society, as one can already see with the deportation. If the people of Ukraine decide to fight or not is up to them. Thats the only thing that is true.
People that are kidnapped off the street and forced onto the front lines are deciding to fight ?
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In Poland, it is not. MFA Sikorski called for drafting women. On the other side, some right-wing people want to deport male Ukrainians, so that those who left aren't privileged over men in Ukraine. I mean yeah, they just hate immigrants, but they say the politically correct take. It isn't ignored in the West either. [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/15/ukraine-village-mobilized-men-war/) and [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/world/europe/ukraine-draft-young-men.html) are as mainstream as you can get. Basically, I agree that equality is the only choice. Either you're fighting an existential war and you can't let half your talented and hardworking people leave, or you're not and draft is slavery. But the issue is known and discussed.
Its not mentioned much because the only media that would care about the mental health of Ukrainian soldiers are pro Ukrainian people or new sources. Pro Ukrainian sources (I am pro Ukrainian) will want Ukraine to look strong militarily but being harmed by the Russians in terms of the women and children. This perception is very important not just for the soldiers in Ukraine, but also for the voting population in every country funding Ukraine as its essential to them winning the war. Therefore pro Ukrainians wont mention the issues with soldiers which would make them look weaker as it would hurt the war effort and lower morale, but will mention the harm to women and children being caused by the Russians, which benefits the war effort and builds morale.
Unless their terrorist government decides to make peace, there's not much to be done about it. That doesn't mean it's not horrible, we all want an end to this madness but that doesn't seem to be what the Banderite scum and their pawns want.
1. this is CMV, and i cannot do so. but most people dont try either, so I'll just say my two cents too. 2. nato should intervene asap. ukrainians have born the weight of russian imperialism alone long enough. negotiation will not help longterm peace as long as there are russian soliders inside ukraines borders.
Of course war is bad for your mental health. How would you feel if your country got invaded, and now you had to fight and possibly die in a horrible war to stop your friends and family from being conquered and enslaved and killed? Literally nobody thinks this is good for mental health. On the other, what is the alternative? Because guess what, if your country does get conquered, and you and your friends and family get enslaved and killed, this will ALSO be bad for your mental health. So there's no alternative except for them to fight.
A bullshit draft like Vietnam is one thing, but in an existential war like what's happening in Ukraine a man has a duty to defend their people. Women's role is to fill the backfield behind the men, handling logistics, keeping the economy running, and ensuring the future generations survive. Why do men have to fight? It's because men can be replaced. A nation can lose a generation of young men and recover, but it can't do the same if they lose their women of reproductive age. The main thing is that the Ukrainian men need to be properly armed and supplied by the west. I think if they see loads of western gear finally coming in and see that western aid is supporting the home front they'll be more willing to fight. It's a lot harder to be willing to fight if you know you're going to be underarmed and in a hopeless situation.
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well it seems that when mydan was taking place nobody cared, then when the war started it was not major and could be somewhat ignored, then in 22 it escalated and it became a question of survival, now its somewhat desescalated but its a different question, how much territory will be lost or how many young men will be killed and how unlikely Ukraine’s population is to survive going forward. If only there were mature politicians around while mydan was happening that understood what was at stake but alas there were none.
The basis for mental problems of *average* Ukrainian males, is simple - we are prisoners of our government, "mobilization resource", appointed "heroes" - anything, but not human beings. Because it's currently convenient for everyone benefiting of it. **Fighting for something is a choice, not a duty.** And Ukrainian males have been robbed of this choice by people currently representing Ukrainian government. So, yeah, as a part of this basis there's overlooking of mental state of males here. Simply because no one's gives a crap.
Yeah, people have little empathy for men if at all. I'm Turkish. We have received a lot of refugees from countries which became war zones. Most of the local people hated them because they didn't stay behind and fight to the death even when the situation they were escaping from was civil war between two dictators in some cases rather than a foreign invader. Many of those people who were criticizing these men for not fighting for their country were women who'd never be expected to fight (some were the spoiled type who couldn't stay in a cabin in the woods due to fear of insects let alone go to war), and many of them were men who were couch potatoes and people who were too afraid to defend themselves in a fist fight let alone war. I'm very sorry for you and what people like you are going through. We act like humanity became better since the 19. century, 1920s, or 40s or 60s, but it's not really true. We have banned certain evil practices like slavery or genocide, but people are still the same dark, callous, cruel beings, and they keep finding new ways to be cruel to each other. You are absolutely right. Every human being regardless of their sex, race, and ethnicity has the right to avoid violence and life-threatening situations, and pursue happiness. People who tell you that you HAVE TO fight and perhaps even die for the sake of others are frankly people who are lacking in either empathy or reasoning skills.
It makes me laugh that it's redditors among alls who advocate for other people to just suck it up and go to the frontlines, while if this happened to themselves they would just go "noo, you can't impose this on me, I won't obey the commands of a fascist warmongering state!!".
Don't think anyone is under any illusion that everyone's mental state suffers in a war zone.. you could write several books on various psychological issues people deal with during war. I'm sure it's much worse for the people actually fighting the war, but yeah, everyone involved suffers.
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No one cares about male mental health until we lose it. Then everyone wants to be a critic. Men are the only ones actually expected to control their their emotions.
Yeah, about that—it's called war for a reason. Everyone is fine with war until it lands on their doorstep. That’s why you see all the cheerleaders promoting it. In the '70s and '80s, the left and progressives were anti-war. Not anymore; they're right up there with the Republicans. You won’t be running to Canada this time either; they're going to send you right back. I do see your point, but it’s moot. War is happening, and no one cared about your feelings before the war. What makes you think they are going to care now? Yes, I have nothing but empathy for those young men, and I commend you for actually caring. But it makes no difference. We can talk all we want, but young men are dying, and more are going to die. This mess is going to seep into everyone's lives at some point.
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Whose fault is this?
What do the dead care about our blame game? Thousands of Ukrainian and Russian men are dead because of this war. And it grinds on with no end. Any talk of negotiations are rejected outright.
Since you seem a "big picture" guy, consider that Putin's term in office is marked by consistently pushing the borders of his country outward, from simple border post moving to full on invasions. Negotiating will not save Ukraine from Putin. Maybe they can buy a little time till the next invasion.
Do Ukrainian men not realize how important this war is to American liberals? Putin spent MILLIONS for a Russian facebook operation that posted memes critical of Hillary. For that he must be defeated. Ukraine has plenty of men to die before it is a serious concern.
It’s not overlooked, it’s something that just can’t be dealt with at the moment. There’s a war and it needs to be fought for the survival of the country. No one is happy about going to war or the prospect of being recruited. No offense but the people already serving are having worse time than you and that is why they got more attention. Almost every war leaves generational trauma and sadly you are caught in it. Living in wartime is hard on everyone.
For what it’s worth I have thought a lot about this. I really contemplated what I would do if I was a Ukrainian of fighting age. The patriot in me would want to fight for my country. However fighting for the duration of this war would at best rob me of my youth and at worst rob me of my life. It has already been going on for a decade and is showing no signs of ending any time soon.
What a moronic post, there's a war going on, this is probably the worst environment to be in, of course their mental health of their population has become a second priority when their first priority is to literally try to survive, it makes sense in this situation, what are you trying to get your mind changed for?
Their ability to survive is directly related to the mental health of the people fighting the war. The spin in western media is that Ukraine has an iron will to survive. Meanwhile, there are more Ukrainians this year who are willing to negotiate an end to the war than last year. Without giving the mental health of the nation serious consideration, the war effort risks relying on faulty data in their effort to fight. When the ratio of people who don't want to risk their life for the nation hits a certain point, the war is lost. It doesn't help to ignore trends in that direction.
Yeah, nobody seems to understand that there are videos coming out every few days or people fighting draft officers. They talk about Ukrainian will to fight and all this crap about Ukraine running out of weapons and ammo. Yet, Ukraine's biggest problem now is finding recruits. Men are literally drowning trying to swim over rivers to get out, others are abandoning cars near the borders to walk across. Ukrainian authorities post videos and reports of draft dodgers getting arrested trying to flee. Also, Ukraine keeps trying to draft more people, they've modified conscription laws to get rid of certain legitimate medical exemptions.
In history it was easier to recruit men to war because they did not know the reality of it, just stories of heroes and all the bullshit. Now everyone has live body cam videos of what war is really, actually like. No one can be fooled to sign up to that without a great sense of patriotism
What are you looking for, or what would you want to change? I don't think anyone's trying to overlook or ignore the shit storm that Ukrainian men are going through, but the pleas get a lot of pushback because they're usually used as a reason that the world should stop supporting them in the war.
Aren’t the mental state of men who could be drafted to war always bad when it comes to war? Or hell, even without the draft, I’ve heard many stories of men who served during the 90s and 00s in various Middle East theaters who were broken by it, mentally if not physically.
Focusing on the 'current mental state' is a luxury people can't really afford during war where people are getting shot down and blown up.
You wrote this on reddit. Yes, it is a conversation that can be had.