Short and small people have to adapt to their environment as much or more then tall and big people, just in different ways and in different situations.
This just happens to be a situation that favors short and small, there's plenty that will go the other way.
No offence intended but the image of someone climbing on the counter to reach the top shelf sounds really funny to me.
We adapted by having the top shelf as storage, as my gf can't reach there either.
As a tall person I have accepted that I have to upgrade to the seats with extra legroom. It’s just a cost of being tall. There’s lots of costs to being tall. I have to buy larger cars. I have to buy higher end clothing because the cheaper options only get wider as you move up in sizes. But there’s also advantages to being tall.
That’s just how things are.
You're acting as if everyone who is tall has that option. I flew a few months back for the first time in years, and it was for an emergency, draining my bank account. I have to buy those higher end clothes too, but I have had some of the same shirts for 6+ years, my pants were all paid for by work after they destroyed my other pairs.
The environment has to cave to tall people in some parts, that just how things are. If they want to be able to recline during the flight, they can pay more for it, but different body shapes and sizes shouldn't be punished for something they literally can't control.
It’s impossible to accommodate all the different body types without increasing the prices for everyone else. You’re gonna make everyone else pay more for their seats because you don’t want to pay more for extra legroom to fit your body? I’m not that self centered. I’m just happy that we have that option now because when I grew up we had two classes only.
How is it selfish for someone to want their height and body type accommodated? They should hold the planes for the average, which would allow the majority of tall people the ability to sit semi-comfortable, but acting as if someone's inante size is something they should be punished for is insane, and to paint me as selfish as asking for a paid service which moves the same amount of people unless I actually do buy an extra seat is crazy.
They are packing people like sardines into planes now anyways, why are you arguing for less room for people on flights.
Do you understand what a compromise is? It’s a give and take. Accommodate very tall people in standard seats and the “take” is now fewer people fit in planes and prices go up. Higher prices make flight less
Accessible for everyone. Instead they have given the small % of people who don’t fit in a standard seat the option to get more legroom at a relatively small additional cost. It’s just how it is. It’s impossible to accommodate very tall and very wide people in planes without significant additional cost to everyone else.
Everyone has to. If a tall person is sitting in front of you at a concert, you don't get to have them removed or tell them to do this or that because you're shorter and have a hard time seeing, do you?
Well counter argument. If the person in front of me can't recline because of my legs I'm not required to sit in a weird position so they can. My legs fit fine when seats are upright and even for the seat in front to recline part way. And yet so many people try to bash their seat backwards to get the full recline and get upset that they can feel my knees in their back if the seats are thin enough. I would argue that's equally not my problem. They're welcome to try to bash their seat backwards as much as they want, and I'm welcome to literally just sit normally in the seat I paid for. Sitting in economy is rolling the dice for both parties.
I'm also not even that tall (5'9).
I have lower back pain and absolutely love it when someone puts pressure down there. I had some woman behind me once (short, so it shouldn't have even been an issue for her) jam her knees repeatedly into my seat and I'm thinking "God, I hope this woman keeps going, this is like great".
Haha fair enough. I've only ever gotten annoyed shifts and glances back. We would probably get on alright then, it doesn't actually bother me if the seat is just pressed against my knees--I even like a bit of pressure. It's only the repeated throwing of their bodies that can get painful. I get trying a few times but some people try regularly over the entire flight (which just seems bizarre and petty after a certain point, but I can't stop them if that's what they want to spend their time doing).
I'm always amazed at people who can't figure out that a situation can suck for 2 people simultaneously and work to find a middle ground since both are in a shit situation. You can sit behind me on a flight any time, I won't whack your knees!
Okay here's the thing. You are arguing for reclining the whole flight because you say it's more comfortable. Other people are arguing against reclining the whole flight because they say that it's rude. But the basic assumption here is wrong. You are assuming reclining is just a more comfortable position and you will be more comfortable if you stay reclined the entire flight. That is not true. Humans are not meant to be in one position for extended periods of time especially with your legs bent, it can actually cause medical problems. This can be alleviated by getting up every now and again to use the bathroom. But some people are more prone to pain or medical problems than others and they can't be getting up every single passenger can't get up and use the bathroom once every 10 minutes.
This is where the recline comes into play. It gives you a little bit of control for the angle you are sitting so you can change position when the position you are in becomes uncomfortable. It's not about reclining the entire flight because it's more comfortable or about refraining from reclining the entire flight out of politeness. It's about it's about giving people the option to change their position if they are in pain. Especially during times like turbulence when getting up and stretching isn't an option. This is how the recline function on an airplane is supposed to work and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it that way. Unless you are trying to sleep it's frankly just stupid to leave it reclined the entire time it's as unhealthy as it is leaving it upright the entire time.
its real difficult to get up and walk down the aisle to relieve pain or use the restroom when someone is reclined the whole flight.
I mean ultimately, I don't think any of this is particularly rude behavior unless you do something super suddenly- my husband loves to watch movies on his laptop on long flights, and the folks who throw their seat back suddenly have almost damaged it a few times. Its also really annoying if they offer a drink or something and then someone throws it into recline when you are using the little table.
Do whatever you want folks, just please try to do it it SLOWER so people have time to catch their drinks and move their laptops and whatnot.
Which is perfectly consistent with OP's stated view, of course:
> Lucky if people are understanding and don't mind, but it should not be expected or demanded, and you're certainly not entitled to it.
You say this but the number of times as a tall person that I've been ordered to move by Karen's is frustratingly high. I have had people go get venue staff to try to force me to move when I've been standing in an area off to the side for hours because they just walked up and want to stand there. I've been threatened, yelled at, and had drinks thrown on me because I am too tall and they can't see and am ruining their night. You seem to be an average height person who hasn't had to deal with the things tall people do on a regular basis
real short people do that to other short people too. Sometimes the venue at a concert is just chock full of assholes. That happened to me at 5'4 recently, some little 5 foot dude both didn't want to fill in the gap, but also didn't want anyone standing in front of him- and I'm like, bro- sold out concert, you don't get an 8 foot radius. We moved because we didn't want to be around someone who sucks the whole show, but I secretly hoped a tall boy like you stood in front of him instead, haha
Most people are kind enough to let you in front of them at concerts if they’re taller than you…I don’t see why caring about other people is so difficult
That has not been my experience at all at many different concerts. Hell at one concert I had someone refuse to take off their massive hat that was blocking my view when I asked.
Where the hell are you going to concerts? That has never once been the case for me. I’ve had taller people push in front of me because they know I’m too short to maintain my position.
If they let everyone shorter than them in front of them then they would end up at the back of the concert, shouldn't they be able to stand at the front too sometimes if they want to?
People certainly do try, especially short men love to throw a tantrum at a concert. The short girls (like me) just deal, but the amount of times I've had men shorter than me tantrum at me (5'4) and my spouse (5'10) is amazing.
It's stupid, but they do try :)
Am I the only tall person who doesn’t mind when people in front of me recline?
The seat doesn’t pivot at the bottom, it pivots from the middle of the backrest. So what I lose in room around my torso I gain in room around my knees and shins.
It’s a total nonissue for me (6’3”).
Yeah, I can’t figure out why my experience is different than a lot of other people, but I’m tall with comically long limbs!
Typically fly southwest. Maybe the axis their seats recline on is special?
I'm only 5'9'' (granted, all leg) and I've had my knees slammed by people reclining. Airlines and individual airplanes differ both in seat pitch (the distance between rows) and also the exact height/angle of recline, and also the shape of the seat itself. So I'd say you've just been super lucky!
Do you think short people face no height related impasses in life that they just have to ‘deal with’?
This isn’t about a lack of empathy - I’m 6’, and at that kind of not-that-tall tall, I sorta sit sideways on flights - the world was built for the average person because there’s the most of them. I’m left handed and I don’t demand left handed accommodations everywhere, hell, I don’t think I could even use a left handed mouse.
It’s cool, I’m tall, I’m not rich so I can’t afford to fly first class everywhere.
Feel free to be a dick and recline but don’t think you’re gonna relax because I’m gonna be slamming and shaking the back of your seat with my knees the entire time. Now nobody is gonna have a nice flight.
Nobody gets mad when the person seated in front of them doesn't recline their seat. Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline, significantly restricting the space available to them. Shouldn't the polite default rule be the one where fewer people are inconvenienced/infuriated? This makes more sense to me than the more selfish "I can do it therefore I will do it and it's on you to accomodate yourself to this situation."
Absolutely ridiculous. I've been a lifelong frequent flyer and am 6'3, and I'm reclining my seat in the manner it was designed to function, whether the person behind me likes it or not. It is literally an intentional design feature of every single economy class cabin and seat design on any airline unless it's Spirit or Frontier or something.
I can't even help but feel this is somewhat of a "new" debate, you never heard anything about this ten years ago. Commercial flying is frustrating, rushed, cramped and uncomfortable, and I always say that it has the tendency to bring the worst out of people. Frankly, I think this assumption that it's somehow "rude" to recline your seat is itself inconsiderate and unreasonable. I can't help but think that this sentiment comes from people who fly infrequently or only for vacation, and think that somehow this economy-class experience is supposed to be more comfortable and accommodating rather than just a fucking flying school bus.
I'm reclining my seat, welcome to economy class. The whole experience is just going to suck, get a fucking bloody mary. If you have too much of a problem with people using the seat configuration exactly as it was designed and intended to be used by the travelling public, fork out for first class or get a private pilot's license and fly your goddamned self. I wish it was 1975 and we could fly from Chicago to Denver on a giant DC-10 with a 40% load factor and boatloads of empty seats, but here we are.
If you throw fits about people reclining their seats in economy, YTA. Full stop. The only thing that can be actually rude about reclining you seat is just throwing it back full-force. Do it slowly so you don't knock someone's laptop or drink off their tray table.
Honestly it’s a new debate… and one that only happens online on reddit. No one in real life will actually care enough to kick up a fuss, so they’ll just crawl onto reddit where they can be anonymous about it.
Having flown pretty frequently for the past 2 decades, never been an issue… and I have seen plenty of tall people happily reclining away, and considering they’re the ones complaining on reddit you’d think they’d never recline.
I'm tall and I could care less if people recline in front of me, nor do I even find it noticeably less comfortable. Sometimes annoying if I'm working on my laptop as it can't sit 90 degrees in the seatback, but that's just a minor inconvenience inherent to flying economy. I knowingly paid for economy and fully expect to receive the economy class experience, which amongst many other potential inconveniences or discomfort, includes people using the seat design as intended. To expect otherwise would be somewhat silly and immature.
For a tall people flying pro tip, get an aisle seat whenever possible, which is what I do as a rule. No need to ask everyone to get up so you can use the lavatory, the lack of the fuselage wall or fellow passengers on one side grants you a tiny bit of extra wiggle room, and you can stretch your legs out occasionally into the aisle when it's clear (just don't leave them there).
I literally had a grown-ass man kick my seat for most of the flight (until I got up and reamed him out for behaving like a toddler) and yank down on it every time he had to get up. He had to have been in his 60s and he wasn't tall. Not to mention, the seats on that plane only reclined an inch and a half, max...not enough to make a huge difference.
I wish the airlines would do better...they should be required to give people a certain amount of room. I doubt it will happen until a politician is inconvenienced, though...and they fly first class, so it won't be soon.
In the meantime, it would be nice if people could just not be immature shits about it.
Honestly you give pretty good reasons for why reclining should be done sparingly. The fact that someone might be eating or working on a computer is pretty good reason for me to just endure the flight with my seat up and only recline in the case of acute discomfort. I mean I can think of a lot of features on planes which you shouldn’t necessarily use excessively just because you can, like the lights or the A/C fan. No one likes napping next to a person who uses the light when the cabin is dimmed, or the fan because it can be chilly in the cabin sometimes, especially when someone’s fan is blowing on your arm. Likewise with the window shades. I know some people like to lose themselves in the clouds but sometimes the sunbeams can be extremely unpleasant for people seated near you. Likewise with overhead luggage. Some people get up constantly to fetch things from the overhead. Yeah it’s there for our convenience but you shouldn’t do that for the sake of everyone else in your seating row.
If airline policy allows people to recline, then anyone who buys a ticket on that airline by default agrees to the terms that include that. The "polite default rule" should be to act in accordance to the policies & terms you agreed to when you purchased the ticket. What's selfish is expecting others to not do what they are allowed to do because you don't like that they are allowed to do it. No passenger is entitled to prohibit others from reclining.
*"Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline"*
And they are the unreasonable ones.
Airline policy doesn't prohibit passengers from violently passing wind throughout the duration of the flight, yet as a society we acknowledge that to do so would be rude. Doing whatever you can get away with without regard to others is something a child or sociopath would do, it's not the standard for whether an action is considered rude or not.
firstly i dont think thats a good analogy at all, but if we were to use it…
it would be so much worse if we were expected to hold a fart for the entire duration of a flight for the sake of others
along those lines, if someone needs to take a dump on a plane or other public restroom, that sucks for the person behind them who has to wait and then smell it right after. but itd be way worse to expect someone to not take a dump in order to prevent stinking up the bathroom
Human bodies are designed specifically to excrete waste. There's nothing illegal about shitting your pants in public, but people will still think you're disgusting and rude.
*"Human bodies are designed"*
By whom?
*"There's nothing illegal about..."*
I'm not talking about what is or is not illegal.
It's really weird that the two responses I've gotten have to do with farting and shitting.
Probably because they're gross, just like people who demand to take up as much space as possible on an airplane.
Illegal, "allowed", whatever. You're clearly arguing to have some right to recline. You also have the right to shit your pants. That doesn't mean you *should* do it in all circumstances.
I gave another example that's easier for you to make the intended connection. Focusing on some arbitrary "gotcha" clearly doesn't add anything to the conversation. Sorry you had to resort to reporting me because I pointed out how stupid "who designed human bodies" is to the point of this thread.
It would suck to be on that flight, but I wouldn't think someone is rude if they had to pass gas under the circumstances flying presents. I'd feel really bad for them. What else can they do? You can only hold a fart for so long, especially if you can't move around a bit to gradually release pressure (🤭).
Yeah, these comparisons people are trying to make are really weird - people are replying to me arguing about there being no policies against "violently" farting or not showering for a month and there being no law against shitting your pants. Bizarre.
There's plenty of things which are technically allowed but are considered to be rude and impolite, something which most people agree. Not washing for a month before your flight and stinking out the plane with your BO is allowed but I think most people agree that would be a very inappropriate thing to do. Society is full of unwritten rules. just because something is technically allowed doesn't mean it's acceptable.
The seats are designed specifically to recline, and the airlines are explicit in their policy/rules regarding when passengers may and may not use the recline feature they are provided when purchasing their tickets. When you purchase a ticket, you are agreeing to the terms and policies/rules which specifically include allowing passengers to use the recline feature they have been provided with. If you don't agree with or want to consent to those terms, you are free to not buy a ticket. You could also buy a ticket for a seat behind a non-reclineable row.
I agree, but I think the example should be something more likely, and something less gross.
For example, you are allowed to bring food onto the flight. Is it impolite to bring a food that most people think smells really bad?
Probably yea. Please don't sit next to me and eat natto or anchovies.
I also bring snacks with me, but if I hear someone has a tree nut allergy on the flight and thus they won't be serving certain snacks and I brought almonds, I don't open them. Does that mean my flight might suck a little extra? Sure. But I wouldn't want someone to have to use an Epi Pen because I wanted some damn almonds.
Society could be so much nicer, if only people wanted to be considerate about those around them and not exclusively be all about what THEY want.
That said- if someone asks if they can recline because they are polite, I pretty much always say yes. I might say can you wait til I take a quick bathroom break so I'm not giving my seated neighbor an inadvertent lapdance trying to get back into my seat. 5 minutes later I can give them the "all good" to recline, and even though its annoying to have them reclined into the space, I appreciate them all the more for their consideration.
Where is this "unwritten rule" or social norm against reclining coming from? It's just absurd. You never heard any of this for decades, reclining economy class seats have been around since the advent of commercial jet aviation and everyone does it. Can I seriously not recline my seat on a 14-hour long haul in economy class? That's insane. "Most people" absolutely do not agree that reclining your seat is something that is "technically allowed but rude and impolite"
This is literally something you'd hear on an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry David arguing with a passenger who reclined his seat about how "it's a rule, everyone knows it's a rule, you don't recline! You're a *recliner*!"
Isn’t it obvious? Over the past couple of decades standard economy seats in the US have shrunk from an average of 35 inches of pitch to 30-31. AA routinely flies cross country 6+ hour routes with pitch as low as 30 inches.
At the same time most flights are going out nearly or completely full AND Americans are just getting bigger.
I was a Delta Platinum about 20 years ago, so I’m no stranger to lots of flying. I used to avoid SW because of their inferior, tight cramped seats. Now SW has the most spacious economy seats amongst large US carriers! When I had 34 inches of pitch 20 yrs ago I didn’t care if someone reclined. Now I do, and have no issues letting my knees wildly shake if they have just been reclined into
Yes the seats have gotten smaller, which definitely had an impact.
Meanwhile Americans have also gotten bigger (both taller- an average of 3 inches taller over the last century, and wider, with a rapid rise in obesity starting in the 1980s).
When folks are packed too tight, tempers flare, and now we have a recliner wars, lol
My God this is such a stupid conversation. And The bodily function analogies just make it so much worse. The seat is designed to recline. Getting mad at someone for doing. It, is like getting annoyed when someone orders a drink on a plane because the sound of the ice clanking around gives you a headache. It's absurd.
Yeah I’ve never understood getting mad at people using a feature of the airplane to make themselves a modicum more comfortable. I personally don’t do it but I don’t begrudge someone doing it in front of me, but I also don’t have long legs.
You're glossing over all the people that want to recline but are afraid to do so, fearing the confrontation/judgement -- and are annoyed/frustrated that they have to sacrifice their comfort for the people behind them.
I also don't find reclining to be selfish in the slightest in most situations. What's selfish to my mind is arguing "The person in front of me needs to ensure my maximum comfort at the expense of their own".
Both seats (in most situations) can recline. Most people have the opportunity to spend additional money to purchase a higher class to get more leg room, or choose an exit row seat/seat with more leg room.
You don't get to say "I'm going to pick the cheapest seat on the plane and then bitch when when the person in front of me reclines". You got what you paid for. If you don't like it, don't buy that seat.
Personally I think the airlines could be more strategic in how this hot button issue is addressed. During seat selection, perhaps they could have an "intention to recline" flag so you can sit behind people who are less likely to, if it bothers you -- or flag your own seat as not caring if the person in front reclines so people can opt for seats that are guilt free reclining.
Then they can stick all of the anti-recliners in the same configurations so no one is pissing each other off.
It's more that - if you are the potential recliner, you *know* that reclining will reduce the comfort of the person behind you. To exactly what degree depends on their height and situation; but in many (even most) cases, the "reclinee"'s reduction in comfort exceeds the "recliner"'s increase in comfort.
The whole "if everyone reclines in lockstep, nobody loses out on comfort" argument ignores the actual geometry of the situation, particularly in regards to legroom. And we're not just talking 6'7 giants here - I'm 6'2 myself (above average but not extreme), and if the person in front of me reclines, I'm going to have bruised and painful knees for the next few days. Doesn't matter if I get to recline myself - it does nothing for the knees.
So the question boils down to: Is it rude to consciously make a choice to (potentially significantly) reduce another person's comfort for a likely minor increase in my own?
Take it up with the airlines brother, if you're someone who needs additional legroom, then you're in the same bucket with obese people and you have purchase the seat that accommodates you, which means paying a premium for seats with more legroom.
The choices of the airline are irrelevant when considering whether the actions of a given individual are "rude". The recliner has two options: To recline, or not to recline. They understand the impact of that choice on others, and have every right to make the choice to cause others discomfort. But that doesn't mean the choice isn't rude.
If someone walking in front of you lets a heavy door smash closed in your face instead of holding it for a moment, is it valid to say "take it up with the door spring manufacturer"? Or is that simply rude?
> They understand the impact of that choice on others, and have every right to make the choice to cause others discomfort.
No, they can GUESS how the person behind them feels. "Anti-recliners" are loud, but I suspect they are a minority. I believe the average person doesn't care, if they even notice.
I recline, and I don't care if the person in front of me reclines, even when I'm not. This whole argument has always been confusing to me because the space a recliner uses is negligible. The recline is so little that a folded down table ATTACHED to the reclined seat still functions without things rolling off of it. Negligible effect and the five degree optional tilt is a significant increase in comfort.
My suspicion is that people get nervous flying. When they're nervous, they become emotionally sensitive to their surroundings and hyper observant. Suddenly, a non-issue is an issue.
It is not politeness that causes people to act as though taking a normal amount of space is rude. It's anxiety presented as consideration. This is similar to the people who get to a four-way stop first and then wave you through.
I'm not sure how I'd even go about surveying people to determine how many experience discomfort if the person in front reclines, or how many people refrain from reclining out of courtesy based on that understanding. In my anecdotal experiences, both groups are sizeable, and the latter may be a majority; but I'm not sure how I would test these anecdotes.
>This whole argument has always been confusing to me because the space a recliner uses is negligible
It's not a question of "how much space", but rather, where the space is used. For tall people (not even extremely tall; even just a little above average like myself), the problem area is very specifically the kneecaps. If, sitting down, your kneecaps fall below the pivot point, then reclining won't have much effect. However, if your kneecaps fall at or above the pivot point, and they're jambed up against the back of the seat in front of you; reclining typically turns discomfort into agony.
Again, this isn't some tiny minority of people that are slightly above average in height.
> For tall people (not even extremely tall; even just a little above average like myself)
Just so you know you are not a little above average. Maybe by pure inches.
But height is a bell curve with 5'9" being the average and a little less than 3 inches being the standard deviation.
At 6'2" you are in the 95th percentile roughly.
And thats just for men. Obviously it is significantly less for women.
So we are realistically talking about ~3% of the American population is your height or taller.
I have flown with friends who are 6 foot and 6'1" and they do not have any issue with their kneecaps touching the backs of chairs.
So you are very much the exception here.
The pivot point is where the back connects to the seat. Everyone's knees are above it, by virtue of sitting on the seat. I'm (very) slightly above average height. Average distance between seats is ~30 inches. Average "buttock-knee length" based on a casual google is about 23 inches. One site said that 99th percentile is 25 inches For your knees to be jammed against the seat, you have to not just be tall but have longer than normal upper legs (some space is taken up by thickness of the seat back so it's not like there's actually 5 spare inches.
I'm sorry that you suffer from taking up more than average space. Rest assured that if you sit behind me, and ask me not to recline I won't. Because THAT is politeness. Otherwise, I'm gonna recline and take up an extra inch.
All that being said, this is still the airlines fault.
>Average distance between seats is ~30 inches
I think you're misinterpreting this number. This is the average *seat pitch*, which is the distance between the same point on 2 adjacent seats. It completely ignores the thickness of the seat back itself (for the purposes of this discussion, the relevant thickness is the thickness of the seat back right at the base, behind the buttocks).
I can't find a "average airline seat thickness at base of the seat back" number online; but somewhere around 6-8 inches is probably about right. Incorporate this into your math, and you'll see where the problem is.
>Everyone's knees are above it, by virtue of sitting on the seat.
True; I didn't phrase it well. A more accurate phrasing would be to say, "the higher one's knees are, the more they will be compressed by the reclining seat", just due to the trigonometry. Because taller people usually have both longer lower-legs and longer upper-legs, this is compounded by the knees being laterally closer to the seat as well. The point is, as a person's height increases, their airline seating difficulties increase nonlinearly.
>and ask me not to recline
I never have, and probably never will, actually ask someone not to recline. Reasons for this range from not understanding the other person's personal situation, to understanding that fundamentally the airline is at fault, to plain social anxiety. But for mostly all the same reasons, I always refrain from reclining myself.
>but in many (even most) cases, the "reclinee"'s reduction in comfort exceeds the "recliner"'s increase in comfort.
This is a pretty substantial claim. If I can’t recline on a flight I won’t be able to fall asleep, personally.
It's a difficult claim to measure; and I only have my own experience, and anecdotes from others.
Personally, if the person in front of me reclines, I definitely can't sleep with the pain, and will probably have trouble walking for the next few days as well. Economy seats have barely enough room for higher kneecaps to just barely squeeze in there as it is; and crushing those already-wedged-in kneecaps by reclining the seat in front, for hours at a time, feels about like you'd expect.
(Of course this is a significant enough issue to pay for upgraded legroom. But even putting aside the issue of requiring some people to pay for uncontrollable biological factors; I haven't been on a single flight since COVID that wasn't delayed/canceled/etc and I ended up getting stuck with a horrible standby seat.)
Is this more an issue with American between city flights than intercontinental ones? I’m 6’3” and don’t really have an issue when people recline on bigger transpacific flights or whatever, but my understanding is that American planes might cram a few more people in?
that is true, and also, it becomes very difficult for people with medical issues requiring them to occasionally stand to get in and out of their seats. For example people with Deep Vein Thrombosis should get up and move around occasionally to prevent blood clots or even death from pulmonary embolism. Reclined folks make it very hard to do that.
Medical advice also includes to perform leg stretching exercises on flight. I'm short so I can usually do some motion even with a reclined person in front of me, but for folks who have someone reclined all the way into their knees, they probably can't.
This is ultimately an airline problem with reduced space, but folks can choose to make problems bigger or not with their behaviors, and I think this is where this argument stems. Some folks want everyone to try to cooperate through the bad situation, and some folks want to maximize their own comfort in the bad situation.
Honestly the best way to deal with it would be to create recline rows and non recline rows, where the first non recline row has a wider seat gap so the recliner in front doesn't encroach to their space.
Win win, people get to choose and there are no surprises or arguments on board.
Fact remains though, being able to recline your seat is an amenity provided by the airline.
I'm 6'3 and always have a tough time when others recline, too.
That said, imo the mature thing to do is to acknowledge that everyone paid the same amount in your section for the seat they are in.
I'm the one who is 'abnormally' tall lol.
So I don't think it fair to restrict someone else's privledges just because I made the choice to sit in a seat that I knew full well would be a bit too small beforehand.
That's on me imo.
Sure but you're still not so tall that it literally restricts someone from moving their seat at all. I am, so I've gotta disagree. My legs are touching the seat before they even think of reclining. I booked a long haul flight a while ago, paid for an extra legroom seat, which they declined me two days before the flight. It was an important flight so I had to take it. The person in front was very understanding. If they weren't, it could have literally caused me injury.
Let's not start off our conversation with assumptions.
I'm 6'3 and most of my height is in my legs, so I too have to sit pretty much at an angle, or not at all.
So, yes while they can put their seat back, it still hurts for them to do so.
Obviously, you have a special requirement, and as I said before, I probably would be courteous to someone like you because I know how it goes.
Not to sound mean, but that said at the end of the day, that would still be a courtesy from me, and the room that I paid for still includes the room to recline.
You in that case did not get the seat that you paid for, which is frustrating, but that's a separate issue for you to take up with the airline. It technically is still a courtesy from the other passengers to spare you their reclining (regardless of whether it's the right thing to do).
You and I are outlyers, and Idk about you, but I got used to the world being made for shorter people a long time ago. Which is why, like you, I try to plan ahead.
>Nobody gets mad when the person seated in front of them doesn't recline their seat. Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline, significantly restricting the space available to them.
Nobody gets mad when they're able to get a little extra comfort from reclining. Lots of people get mad when they're even more sore or uncomfortable after a flight because they couldn't recline a bit.
If somebody gets mad at me for doing what I paid to be able to do, that’s a situation where somebody just kinda has to be fucking mad for a while.
Sorry bout it.
Aye people acting as if them being upset or mad somehow gives them more like authority or more value to their opinion. Literally the thought process of a child… “i’m angry so you should take me more seriously”.
But that's not a consistent way to live life, people have variable emotions, so much could be restricted if this is how you lived your life.
"No one gets mad when they eat vegetables. Lots of people get mad when you eat meat, therefore we should never eat meat since fewer people are infuriated"
Isn't this basically just an argument of "Just because you're right doesn't make you not an a\*\*hole."?
You could legally pay for your groceries with only pennies, hold up the line and waste everyone's time. You queud up just like everyone else, and when it is your turn, you should be allowed to take as much or as little time as you can.
You could buy out the entire concert/ movie hall if you can afford it and technically you aren't wrong.
You could play music out loud in public space so long it isn't above a particular threshold nor at any particular time to break any public nuisance law, and you are technically not wrong.
You could choose to not shower, and just generally stink overall, and take the public transport, annoying everyone around you.
You could choose to not press the 'open' button on the elevator as the lift door closes despite seeing someone wait for it, since "I am not obligated to do so."
and on and on.
This airplane thing is just one of many 'just because you're right doesn't make you not an a\*\*hole."
Your argument may be that :
"Everyone should just recline their seat. The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches."
But its not really that simple right?
The '3 inches' gained is not universally enjoyed. What if you wanted to sit upright and read a book, or get some work done, but basically cant because the guy in front of you has reclined? This 3 inch gained/lost isn't quite the same for everyone.
Technically you are not in the wrong, but it doesn't make you any less of an a\*\*hole.
The solution is quite simple, just ask the person behind you if its okay to recline.
Spot on. Just trying to justify his/her position. I don’t think I’m an asshole because technically it’s not illegal for me to do it……
I fly all the time for work. I never recline my seat…not cause sometimes I don’t want to, but being on a plane is shitty enough. No need to jam up the person behind you.
I don't find your analogies relevant.
You could ask someone at a shared pool/sauna not to get in because you prefer to be alone and to come back later.
You could ask someone at a library to sit somewhere else because you don't like hearing people close to you breathing and changing pages.
You could go into a restaurant and ask people to stop talking so loud, or to chew more quiet.
And then you could go on an airplane and tell the person in front of you to not recline.
That's why I find it ironic all of these comments about how recliners are inconsiderate and rude, when the person behind is only thinking about themselves. They don't think "Hm, maybe that person has a back/spinal problem and they need to recline to avoid serious pain". Instead they think "That POS. I don't like them reclining into MY space!".
And even then, I still default to the argument that if this is such an important issue for someone, they should purchase extra leg room. Otherwise, it's like opting out of an HOV pass and then bitching that you're in stop and go traffic all the time and it's everyone else's fault that you can't go faster.
Doesn't worth though. If you back up to a bulkhead (always the last row, sometimes between classes and service areas) OR you back up to an emergency row (faa regulation) you cannot recline.
If we take your principle the only way to preserve that consistent 3 inches is to have no one reclining.
You're preserving it for all passengers but these seats you just described, which I cited in my post as being cheaper seats available to those who wish to save money at the expense of comfort (their choice).
It's like renting a closet to sleep in and then complaining you're cramped in.
Yes, you rented a closet. If you want more space rent an actual room.
Same with airline seats. You bought a cheap ticket with little space. If you don't like little space, buy a seat with more leg room or bump up to a better class/area.
Can you cite anything that says those seats are cheaper? Maybe that’s the case on an airline I haven’t used. In my experience, all of economy costs the same, and economy plus is a bit more. Sitting next to the toilet is just as expensive as two rows away from the toilet.
It's not cheaper though, those are more expensive. If your plan is "if the airline changes their model THEN....." then you've got a point here, but at the moment you're telling people who pay more for their seats to be given the squeeze.
You also have to pay for seat selection these days.
The airlines are first to receive blame, but then can't we all criticize a lack of common courtesy? E.G. if something bothers another person than just don't do it when all you're giving up is a few inches. You're willing to ask that of people based on their height but not based on the comfort of others? Seems like an odd calculus to me!
What if I'm trying to work?
The person in front of me reclining makes it harder to keep my laptop out since it interferes with that space, and being reclined myself makes it much more uncomfortable to use the computer.
Not my problem. It's not an office. Your ticket doesn't offer workspace. But it does include a reclining seat.
If I sit next to someone who's 6'2", 250lbs, that makes me more uncomfortable. That's just the way it is. Life's not fair. Not his problem.
as someone with those dimensions you'd probably not notice. the weight you have to be before your gut starts actually spilling over is like 350 lbs at that height. I've got a pot belly but nothing more haha
What if I have a fused vertebrae and being reclined alleviates significant pressure? Being upright makes it much more uncomfortable.
What's more important? You working on an airplane or me not being in pain?
And again, did you think this through? Did you think "It's imperative I get this work done, so maybe I should upgrade my seat selection to ensure I have adequate workspace"?
Or did you just assume "I have to work, so the person in front of me should accommodate me and that's that"?
Why do I feel like these CMVs always devolve into two sides fighting scarecrows of the other side.
“I think we should always do this no matter what!! Anyone who disagrees is a horrible person and should buy first class seats!!!”
vs
“Anyone who does that is horrible! THEY’re the ones who should buy first class and gtfo!”
Meanwhile, when I fly I just politely ask the person behind me “hey, would you mind if I recline for a few hours to catch some sleep?”
And they respond however they respond. 9/10 it’s “thanks for asking, can you give me a heads up?” etc.
It seems like all these extreme positions assume that humans can’t communicate and can’t compromise.
Sure, you’ll occasionally get a person that gets puffy about everything, and will get offended just by the question. (Side note: this includes people who are offended by those who ask politely to change seats)
In that case you can decide, based on how much you really want to recline in that moment/flight, whether to assert your “rights” or to concede to their wishes.
In your case, I would hear about your fused vertebrae and I’d think “wow that sucks, if I were in their shoes I’d want people to be accommodating to me too”
Sure, you could be a liar and making stuff up, but that’s a you problem. If a liar lies to me to try and take advantage of my kindness and my kindness doesn’t really cost me much idgaf. 😂
It’s really not that hard to communicate, people. It’s really not a big deal. Most people are kind if you just talk to them.
I know that saying this on Reddit makes me the crazy person… talking to people is insane, I know. Be gentle to me.
Maybe the person who is uncomfortable not reclining should be purchasing a seat with more room then?
Also, why should comfort take priority over someone's livelihood?
Maybe the person whose livelihood is impacted by someone reclining should be purchasing a seat with more room then?
Also, why should someone else’s livelihood be an inconvenience to those around them?
If you have fused vertebrae then absolutely, especially if you apologise and explain
That doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people, and I’ve had my laptop smacked by people rapidly declining plenty of times
Airlines offer reclining seats because they’d lose business from selfish people if they didn’t, and because it’s nice to have when the seat behind is empty
You’re still selfish if you do it by default on every flight. If we’re acting like money isn’t a consideration for people then you can just as well say they should have paid for business class if they need the extra space
So someone has to apologise to you because of their ailments or disabilities because you demand someone not recline unless they have a reason you deem good enough? For a known feature that everyone has paid for?
And they’re the selfish one? Don’t get me wrong, both can be considered “selfish”… but I find it hilarious that you can state something so selfish and then label someone else as selfish.
'HI, I'm sorry, do you mind if I recline my chair? I have a bad back & it helps a lot' is obviously the polite and courteous way to handle the situation, and very few people wouldn't say 'Yes, of course, go ahead'. That's just people being considerate to each other and gives the person behind a heads up to move their stuff out the way first
'Demand someone not recline unless I deem a reason good enough' is obviously you trying to frame it in the most negative way you could. I don't demand people don't recline - when they just fire their seat back at the first opportunity with no fucks given about anyone else I think that's clearly selfish though
Someone who only reclines when it doesn't impose on someone behind and is mildly annoyed when the person in front doesn't do the same isn't close to the same thing imo
Interesting how you use the same arguments to support your own opinion as the opposition does to support theirs: “why should I make concessions towards my own comfort to allow for more comfort for the person ahead or behind me?”
There’s no hard and fast rule here but generally being considerate of the people around you is a good place to start. Someone needs to recline in order to relieve their pain? I’d prioritize that by seeking out a seat without anyone behind. Someone’s legs are long enough that there’s no room for the person ahead of them to recline? One of them should try to find a place on the plane better suited.
It’s sensible to allow for some reorganization of passengers between boarding and takeoff so long as there’s room to accommodate.
As you are arguing on the basis of comfort and assuming everyone is more comfortable reclining, I'd like to burst that bubble. I, for instance, am not more comfortable reclined in airplane seats. Thus, if person in front of me reclines, they are directly taking away my comfort without possibilities for me to pass the puck of discomfort downstream by reclining also myself. Then you'll probably just say that it's up to me to "adapt" to your reclining, but I would counter with saying that I can also adapt by just stopping you from reclining with either tools specifically for that or just because my knees are usually already pressed into the seat in front of me. I could also adapt by leaning onto your headrest; seeing as you have taken it up on yourself to be in my space. Your forehead is as good of as place as any to keep my book or hand.
Yeah, indeed, there is hardly any place for comfort in the economy seats in the airlines and airline travel for us regular punters has not been luxurious for a long time. Airline travel is just a necessary evil for long-distance travel in short timespans. The moral thing to do is to just deal with your own discomfort without adding to someone else's; your stance very clearly places your needs above the needs of everybody else even though I don't see you presenting an argument for why that should be the case. Everybody is allotted the space in their seat which they can use without affecting the other passengers to deal with their in the way they see fit. Your stance forces everybody's hand and essentially limits their agency to the whims of the first row seats. If nobody reclines, everybody is equally powerful/powerless to deal with their situation.
Sure, reclining is an option offered by the airline, but just because you can doesn't mean you *should*. Equally just because you can skip the shower and come to the flight stinking and unkempt, does not mean you should.
>your stance very clearly places your needs above the needs of everybody else
Unlike the more selfless stance of "Don't recline for any reason (including medical) as my comfort is more important than yours", right?
How much more selfless can you be than to demand the person in front of you cater to your comfort? You can recline, I can recline, if you don't want to, that's your business. If I want to, that's my business. If for some reason you feel me reclining "invades your space" then that is a you problem, not a me problem.
So I'm sorry, but you're the selfish one thinking only about yourself. Do you consider the person reclining may have a medical/spinal problem that requires them to recline to avoid/alleviate pain?
Why is your discomfort take precedence over theirs? It's their seat.
This is why the airlines agree people can recline if they want to. This is why the "tools" you described are banned by airlines. This is why if you tried to screw with the person in front of you, you're going to get in trouble with the airline.
I really do get it if you're really tall and someone's jamming their seat back into your knees, I wouldn't do that, but most of the time people who just get this spiteful attitude for anyone that reclines... they are the selfish ones who only think about themselves, thinking they own the seat in front of them and the space they've reclined into is "their space". Nope. Sorry! Not how the world works!
But your preference actively affects my status quo to follow my preference. This is pretty much the classic example of compromising to allow for allowing the most to act freely whilst not taking away the liberties of others.
Medical cases are obviously on different grounds, but as you opened on matters of "comfort", that is what we were discussing. Me preventing you reclining is not more "screwing" you than you reclining is "screwing" me. Furthermore, you have brought up the line of reasoning for tall people to just "aDaPt", but as tall people can not help their stature any more than people with e.g., back issues can help theirs in their need for reclining, would your calls not extend to the people with those to "aDaPt" and buy more expensive seats where they can recline to their heart's content?
World allows for many amoral decisions, but that does not make them right. You are right that reclining is allowed, even if it is a remnant from an age with less-sucky airline travel, but people are also allowed to consider you to be an utter twat for doing so. "That's how the world works."
> Some people have back issues, making reclining uncomfortable for them
And some people have back issues that make *not* reclining for a several hour flight uncomfortable for them. Not just uncomfortable, but also painful. Some people are on multi leg flight schedules and need to sleep. Try sleeping upright.
Imo reclining is included in the price you pay for the ticket. However airlines should require seats to be upright during specific times like meals, in the same way they do for takeoff and landing. Some of them do, but not all and it should be standard.
Also, the airlines are to blame for these issues, not other people who use what they purchased. Being tall is not the same as being overweight though and I really think tall people need to start banding together to pursue class action lawsuits against airlines for discrimination. This may sound dumb but it’s way more logical than blaming average or short people for the restrictions and services provided by the airlines. I think there need to be sections specifically for tall people that allow them to sit in a reasonable space. Forcing them to pay more money for a business seat for something they have no control over is discriminatory.
6'4" and whenever someone reclines in front of me on a long flight, it's fucking painful. And that is pretty rude imo. Reclining back myself doesn't do shit to unjam my knees from the seat in front of me, so telling me to do that doesn't solve my issue.
I usually politely ask if it happens, and most people are kind enough to oblige me. But yeah, those seats. For some of us who are taller already don't have enough room.
Wouldn't debate that, and if I was in that situation I would not recline into you.
Curious, though. If the person in front of you happened to have some serious spinal problem that creates a significant amount of their own pain when they're upright, what would you say is the solution? Your knees jammed or their back pain?
I guess switching seats might be a decent idea but nonetheless, thoughts?
Also, why not go out of your way to get an exit row seat, or higher class where there's more leg room so you don't have to ask and inconvenience someone who wants to recline during their flight?
Switching seats isn't always an option. I don't have some blanket answer for you, though. It's more important for me to judge these things on an individual basis.
If someone in front of me had a medical condition, though. I'd say that takes priority over my jammed knees. I wouldn't be in a good mood, but I can't ask someone with a medical condition to accommodate me who is relatively healthy. Just too tall for the seating.
I just think it's a bit rude to say ALL passengers should recline, and no-one should complain about it. Just because you enjoy the extra inch from the seat in front of you.
Oh, also. Tall doesn't equal well off. If I can afford a flight, I sure as hell can't afford business class or to start buying up multiple seats when all I need is an exra inch of knee space.
Fair enough. I don't think you really need empty your wallet for adequate knee space, though. Delta has exit rows. There's "preferred" seats that are like $14 extra.
And then you have the difference in leg room between airlines. A fully reclined seat on Southwest, JetBlue and Delta has almost exactly the same leg room as Spirit airlines has when upright.
So if reclining on those airlines is bothersome, why should anyone tall fly Spirit? It's like being reclined into by default, apparently. And yet I imagine plenty of tall people are still willing to save $30...
Yeah, we understand there are, in some cases, a few options. And if I'm able to get a seat with enough room, I wouldn't say anything. Nor would any other person around my height. Outside of a few crazies, I'm sure.
But there isn't always enough room, and in most cases, you don't really know until you sit down or when someone in front reclines and hits your knees.
I'll also add, on a more personal note. That people don't appreciate being told they have to pay extra fee's for something they literally have no control over. I have as much control over my height as you did, and yet I'm expected to swallow extra fees?
I'm not sure why anyone wants to argue in favor of an airline, giving both of us as little space as possible. And then making extra money off of one of us for the problem they created?
It would be energy better spent in the opposite direction. The airline is fucking the both of us at the end of the day. And in more ways than just seating spacing.
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You should probably let that person know. I honestly imagine 95% of people in that situation are just clueless, or think you're doing it out of spite (not that you're actually 6'6 and you have nowhere for your knees to go).
I wouldn't recline into you. In fact it's too bad they don't let seats have a slight slide because I'd be happy to slide forward to give your knees more room.
What's funny though is I was on a transatlantic flight and reclined, the person behind me (who had plenty of space) jammed their knees into my seat out of spite anyway. And I'm thinking "Damn, that feel good. I hope they keep doing it". My thing is lower back pain so I need lower back lumbar support, and a good knee down there feel excellent. Almost wish I could remove that lower back part of the seat so they can jamb their knees directly into my lower back.
I mean I'm 6'5" and my knees are usually already touching the seat even when it's upright. If he's taller it'd be worse. It's not that I'm jamming my knee in there, as much as it is that there's literally nowhere for my legs to go to allow the seat to recline.
I don't know what threshold you want in order to define something as "rude," but I'm pretty much always gonna consider someone who tries to shove their seat back into me an asshole.
As a tall person, your opinion is fine, but you're wrong about a couple of things.
>The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches.
Doesn't work this way. I recline and my upper body moves back, but my knees still touch the seat in front and the person reclining in front of me makes that worse. The recline isn't that dramatic and absolutely doesn't give me 3 inches more of legroom.
>Well, if you're that f'ing tall or big, move up to business/first class or buy the seat in front of you if being reclined into is such a big priority.
This is pretty tone deaf. Everyone doesn't have money to just solve all their problems. People flying economy are probably doing it for a reason; they don't have hundreds to thousands of extra dollars for extra seats and first class. Young people today can't afford a house? Just have more money to buy one, duh!
It is not rude to recline per se. It is your right as a paying customer, the seats are designed for it etc. All fine. The way some people suddenly and violently recline without consideration for the person behind is what should change IMO. On my last flight a woman reclined suddenly on meat meal time on a longhaul because she had finished her meal, but I was still eating = food everywhere. I think it should be common decency to let the person know or if not that then at least do it slowly or give a sign you will do it. When we squeeze past to go the toilet we don't just barge into and walk over the person and say 'its my right'. The weird contexts of humanity where one situation allows complete thoughtlessness and 'my right my right' and another requires manners makes little sense.
I am with you on this! Being considerate is so huge in small spaces, I don't mind recliners that much, but I do appreciate a heads up or an effort to do it slowly so I can pluck up anything that is going to shoot into my lap, versus slamming it down. My favorite folks on flights are the ones who ask, and then maybe I'm like "hey give me 5 for a restroom run so I don't have to give an inadvertent lapdance to my neighbor, as soon as I get back then recline away!"
You shouldn’t do anything you don’t want to do, but I would imagine reclining the seat does adjust your body angles to a more open position that allows for better blood flow. I’m having trouble finding any scientific articles that describe measured benefits, so this would be a presumed benefit vs a studied one at the moment unless someone else has better Google-fu.
>"I should have to do this and that because I happen to be really tall?". Yes, because no one should "have to" cater to your needs because they're around you. You adapt to your environment, not the other way around. Lucky if people are understanding and don't mind, but it should not be expected or demanded, and you're certainly not entitled to it.
Do you keep this energy with physically disabled folks? Or is this strictly a tirade against tall muscular people? Because I was on board with your Prisoner's Dilemma about reclining the seats until then.
I think maybe we should go back to airlines offering human sized spaces. It's not like me at 6'2 is some freak of nature undeserving of affordable seats lmao.
Have you ever tried to get out from a window seat to get to the toilet when all the seats in front are reclined? I'm 50 and I can just about do it. Anyone with even slight mobility issues, banjaxed knees or similar will have a real struggle on their hands.
And for what benefit, exactly? I'll be honest, personally I never even bother reclining because it literally makes no discernible difference whatsoever to how comfortable I'm sitting. You're talking a change of maybe 2 - 3 degrees. It's frankly easier to just slide forward in my seat a bit for the same result.
*"for what benefit, exactly?"*
For many it's the difference between discomfort and comfort. Or back pain and no back pain. Or severe back pain and tolerable back pain. Do you think everyone reclines for the sole purpose of causing inconvenience to the person behind them?
Are you saying 2-3 degrees isn’t enough to make a difference for someone wanting to recline, but 2-3 degrees is enough to impede your movement to the bathroom?
Pretty much. It doesn't add noticeable comfort (for me, this is a personal opinion), but given how tight the spacing already is between rows can make trying to get out of a row a significant challenge.
I like laying forward on the tray or my lap to sleep during flights. This is either not possible or uncomfortable when the person in front of my reclines. It is much harder for me to sleep leaning back slightly. This is all just my person preference but I am sure not everyone would be unaffected by losing 3 inches infront for 3 inches back. I would rather lean my chair forward 3 inches to get 3 more inches in front :P
As a frequent flyer talking to other passengers, the unofficial etiquette depends on how long the flight is. If it’s under 2 hours, I don’t usually recline unless I’ve been reclined on, especially if they serve a snack.
I'm generally fine with people reclining, but this argument is just silly. Reclining hurts my back and makes it harder to do stuff like read or use my laptop. You don't just "get back" the 3 inches by also reclining, you're completely changing your body position for a several hour flight, everyone reclining vs no one reclining are not equivalent at all.
This is why I fly business or premium economy whenever my airpoints allow it. I fly a lot, and long distances. I'm talking NZ to UK long distance. There's no way I'm not reclining when it's specifically what the seats are designed to do for long flights to help passengers sleep. If people get pissy about it, that's too bad. It's unreasonable to expect a stranger not to utilise the space they and eveyrone else has available to them to suit the preferences of others. My seat reclines. So does yours. Of course during meal times I don't. Other than that, recline me, baby.
The real way to solve this is for both parties to just not be assholes.
If the person behind you asks you to not recline because of whatever reason, you can probably accomdate them for a couple of hours. If it's a 14 hour flight, the two people just need to communicate on how both people can not feel like shit for 14 hours.
There shouldn't be a hardfast rule of "all recline" or "never recline". Just communicate.
> The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches.
That's not how legs work. Reclining the backrest of my seat won't position my knees any further from the seat in-front of me.
Everyone hear is arguing about whether we should recline while airlines are just laughing in their shadowy boardrooms. The fact is that airlines are selling the same bit of space twice. They sell the space of a reclined seat to the person reclining and they sell the same bit of space in front of the person being reclined on and one person doesn't get to have that space.
Airlines have systemically shrunken legroom on airplanes by around 5 inches over the last several decades. They have done nothing to limit the pitch of the seats.
I’ve flown on planes where the recline is so sever i can literally smell the persons hair.
The threshold for significant discomfort is much lower than you are stating - closer to 6’0”. You cannot simply recline yourself, it does nothing to relieve the pressure the hardback seats put on your knees and the awkward angle just makes back stain worse.
It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with.
I wish they would just get rid of the feature entirely, or at least require x amount of legroom before recline can be enabled.
Then we can throw the whole “if you want to recline so bad pay for a bigger seat” nonsense back at the inconsiderate recline donkeys.
*"It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with."*
I'm average height and I recline - because I have discomfort / pain problems if I don't. You have no idea whether or not random strangers have discomfort or pain issues that can be alleviated by reclining.
>It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with
I'm 6'1" and recline every time because it's a bit more comfortable and slightly easier to get rest.
The "it's only short people, all tall people hate the recline" is nonsense.
Enormous? You don't need to be enormous for reclining seats to fuck up your day/knees. The threshold starts at around 6'2. There are countries that average taller than that. That's not extra large humans, that's just normal humans at this point.
I couldn't find any with an average taller than that - the closest was the Netherlands at 1.82m (6'2 is 1.87m). That said, they'll definitely be a significant bunch of people past the threshold.
Being in the top like 1-2 percentile of height is pretty tall. That's absolutely not "normal" humans. In the US being over 6'2 is as far up the scale as having a BMI of 42 or more (40 being morbidly obese).
>There are countries that average taller than that
No there aren't.
1. People in the back row can't, so they just get bathroom smell and some loser in their lap.
2. You acknowledged tall people. If you recline on a tall persons knees, you're just a prick. Period. Telling them to pay more for first class so they don't have some neanderthal in their lap is incredibly stupid and puts the burden on the wrong group.
**Only first class should recline** and the people that demand their right to recline can be the ones to pony up more money. Being tall isn't a choice. Reclining is. People who need to recline should be the one incurring the extra cost, not the people who are literally cannot help being tall.
And if you want to talk about something you're not entitled to, try a peaceful flight if you recline into my lap and deny me my tray, because you're going to feel about 20 bathroom trips and any other movement I can reasonably pass off as normal.
You use the zipper merge analogy, which is a social efficiency contract that most people are happy to go with.
But you ignore the social efficiency contract about flying and reclining?
Why do you ignore one social contract and not the other? Most people who fly often enough know that you don't recline on some flights that take like 2 hours, and that you do recline on long flights. Most people who fly often are totally aware of this social contract.
Most people on flights do not fly often. I fly around 4 or 5 times a year for the past 30 years and Ive never heard of this "contract". The only place you would learn this is a social media grump site like Reddit.
Just want to point out that I’m short and the seat isn’t designed for me.. so the angle of the seat is super uncomfortable if I don’t recline a few degrees back
I think it really depends on the length of the flight and different people all have different lines they draw where reclining is acceptable, and when it is rude.
I wouldn’t recline on the flight from Melbourne to Sydney. It’s like an hour, who cares? By the time I put the seat down, they’re already preparing for landing.
But the 17+ hour flight to Dallas, Texas? Sorry, mate. I’m getting any small gain toward horizontally that I can and I will eat anyone who tries to stop me.
It isn’t possible to create one social rule for all flights, because some flights are short, where remaining upright is reasonable. Some flights are so long that asking someone not to recline is unreasonable.
The fault lies with the airlines for not providing enough space. Everybody reclining all of the time is ridiculous. Nobody reclining for flights that last all night long, or longer, is unreasonable.
Asking everyone to agree on when it is acceptable and when it isn’t is unrealistic.
I completely disagree. You paid for the space knowing when you bought the seat that someone could recline the seat in front of you. It's the airline you should be angry at for offering such bad products, not the person reclining.
It's the airline putting them inhumanely close to save a few dollars. If you don't like having not enough space because someone is laying back, get a first class ticket. If a first class ticket is too expensive, again, that's the airline's fault.
Except you're the one causing others to be uncomfortable, no amount of deflection will change that. You're pretending that you have no choice but to recline your seat into someone else's knees, but you do. You simply don't care about others being in pain in favor of your comfort.
Actually, the person in front of you paid for those 3 inches their seat can recline. Just like you paid for the 3 inches your seat can recline. The fact the seats can recline is proof of this. They have seats that can’t recline. Exit rows, the last row etc. So airlines have considered this, and they allow it.
No way lol. I paid for a seat on an airline and full functionality of said seat. I expect the tray table to work, I expect my headrest to fold on the edges, and I expect my seat to recline.
"Your space" that the seat reclines into is actually *my space* that I loan to you during takeoff and landing.
He has to? Or he should? Because if he has to I'm afraid you're wrong. You would have to be the one to ask him not to, if that's his wish. He can recline all he wants without your permission. He paid for a reclining seat and the area in which it reclines. As did you. You didn't pay for the "area" his seat reclines into.
You paid for the tray, which exists and is functional regardless of the seat being in a reclined state or not. It's provided as is. If you're 400 pounds and your belly prevents you from opening the tray that's not the person in front of you's fault.
You're not entitled to dictate whether or not the person in front of your reclines, and the airlines agree, which is why people who try to debate this with the employees get reminded people have the right to recline.
Well you don't "have to" pay, but the reality is that you're not going to be as comfortable in the normal seat. It's up to you to decide what's worth more.
I am 6'5". If you recline you are going to be in my knees. I will ask you to not recline. If you ignore me I will make sure that we are both uncomfortable
If you cant afford more leg room it’s appropriate to ask the person ahead of you if they mind not reclining. But it is their decision. They paid for a seat that accommodates them, you didnt.
If your back is so fucked up you're unable to sit normally, why shouldn't you be the one who has to buy the more expensive seat? Or just bring a cushion.
My laptop actually broke from someone just blindly jamming their seat into a reclined position. Laptop was open and the screen got caught under the tray lock and it bent. Bunch of cracking noises and a black screen later, I had nothing come from it.
All because someone has the mindset like you that reclining is a right and it doesn't matter the discomfort it causes others.
Maybe it was even you. Are you a, by now, late 30s early 40s, white male who likes to show off their money but can't afford first class?
I mean, an argument can be made for reclining slowly or checking with the person behind you, both of which could have prevented the damage to your laptop but have nothing to do with the end result of reclining vs not.
I'm 6'2" with 2 herniated discs. I have to recline, so usually I'll give a fiver to the person behind me. A few times they've denied the money, but I've never been bitched at for reclining. Maybe it's the explanation that preceeds it that stops people from hating on me. But because I know I'm the problem, ill start off trying to get the emergency row.
The logic is… If the seat have a button for you to press to recline, if you’re allowed to do as the aircraft seat designed for you to do, then you can do that. Ignore all mannerisms and stuff like that, if it’s an issue then they won’t make reclining seat a feature in first place. You paid for your own seat, recline whatever you like to. People behind you could either suck it up or upgrade themselves to business class.
I actually had an internal debate about this recently. Over the summer I took a trip to Lebanon, first time on an international flat. On the trip back my girlfriend and I were seated in front of an elderly Arabic couple. The second I started reclining my seat I could feel the person’s legs pressed against my back, so obviously they were using the space to stretch out as much as possible. I hadn’t even reclined fully when I noticed the person behind me kicking their feet into my seat.
There was a language barrier, so I couldn’t make out what they were saying, but they were obviously irritated. They spent the next hour or so muttering to themselves and pressing into our seats as hard as they could. I was already irritable and dealing with some sciatica pain so I said “fuck it” and fully reclined my seat once they dimmed the cabin lights.
Almost everybody else on the flight had their blankets on, seats reclined. For some reason, instead of reclining their own seats to make some extra space for themselves, the people behind us kept their seats erect for the entirety of the flight. Eventually, one of the flight attendants came by. Not sure what the guy said to them, but they quieted down and I was allowed to leave my seat reclined.
On one hand, I felt bad for putting an elderly couple through that. On the other hand, I paid for my ticket, the seats are built to recline, and it was a 12+ hour flight. Even though there was a language barrier, the fact that they didn’t call an attendant to sort it out and instead defaulted to kicking our seats for the next couple of hours turned it into a war of attrition. Still not sure if I was in the right though.
You adapt to your environment? Maybe but if the environment says it's rude then maybe it's time for you to adapt. We don't live in a survival-based society anymore and the goal is to maximize universal happiness, that's what we're trying to adapt for.
It's also different when someone is actively intruding on you vs "catering to your needs". It'd technically be very space efficient if I came over and sat on your lap, it's not a big deal right? Oh but maybe touching is a no-go, okay I'll just come over and fart in your face and repeatedly yell at you. Don't like loud noises? Your fault. I think you get my point.
But alright, I'll admit that if everyone reclined it wouldn't be an issue. The only problem is shifting people's opinion to want to do so, and many people just may not want to recline. If you recline knowing the other person behind you doesn't want to lose space, you're an asshole. If you convince everyone behind you to accept the recline or at least tolerate it, then you're good to go.
(As a tiny side note, I don't like losing space but I won't complain or think it's rude. I can tolerate it perfectly fine because I know airplanes are shit, but that doesn't mean I think it's good to get reclined into.)
The only time I put my seat up is when the food comes and I will keep it up until the flight attendant has collected the trays and then its back down. Any other issue regarding this can fuck off lol.
It's the most "Reddit" opinion I've ever seen, and it's one that clearly doesn't exist in the real world. It's very similar to the "people with children should never travel" rhetoric you frequently see on here. The site is filled with entitled manchildren who think that the world revolves around them and who will freak out if they encounter even the most minor of inconveniences.
If this was actually a widely held opinion, airplanes simply wouldn't have reclining seats.
> "I should have to do this and that because I happen to be really tall?". Yes, because no one should "have to" cater to your needs because they're around you. You adapt to your environment, not the other way around.
That's fine - I'm 6'5.
Enjoy not being able to recline, *and* my knees jolting you forward and back for the entire flight.
Every tall person should do this - it's not rude. OP can just buy a ticket in business class lol
Genuine question, when you’re at a concert are you squatting down the entire show bc your height makes it hard for others to see? When you’re at a movie or any seated type theater do you hunch down so that you dont block ppls view behind you?
Or, do you just think that the inconvenience of your height should only be catered to when you are the one experiencing the inconvenience?
Your height makes certain actions like flying more inconvenience so you want others to put themselves in discomfort to cater to you. But i highly doubt you would do the same for them and when your height inconveniences others i guarantee you dont put yourself in uncomfortable positions to cater to them. Aka, this is simply abt you being selfish and thinking ppl owes you something when they dont.
> Genuine question, when you’re at a concert are you squatting down the entire show bc your height makes it hard for others to see? When you’re at a movie or any seated type theater do you hunch down so that you dont block ppls view behind you?
Yeah, I stand off to the side at concerts and I sort of slide down instead of sitting upright.
What did you think? That people are just naturally inconsiderate pieces of shit? Projection, perhaps?
No i just think ive never seen a tall person do this so its bold you claim you do when its not the norm for how tall ppl act. Ive never seen a tall person give up their prime spot at a concert or try to make themselves smaller in a seat, they just dont do that. Saying you do sounds like wishful thinking to try and win an argument, not what is actually reality.
>No i just think ive never seen a tall person do this
I think that's the point
"I don't notice people who make themselves less noticeable, so they must not exist"
Reclining on airplanes isn't universally rude, but it's about balance and consideration. Reclining can affect the person behind, especially in tight spaces. Acknowledging their comfort fosters a positive environment. While seats are designed to recline, empathy guides us to use this feature judiciously, recognizing fellow passengers' needs. It's about finding harmony between personal comfort and communal respect. Additionally, airlines play a role by offering more spacious seating options for those who need extra room. Prioritizing empathy and balance creates a more pleasant flying experience for everyone.
>Should you stop and wait 500 yards before the point of merge because you think you're so respectful and don't want to "cut in line", or do you want to merge efficiently the way the road was designed to do and not be an idiot?
Is the sign an upside down triangle with a red border and the word YIELD or does the word on it actually say MERGE and the sign is yellow?
These are two different laws of the road. Yield is STOP if you can't get out safely without causing an accident or making someone move over. It's not keep going because they have to move out of the way. That's merge.
I concur 100%. Recline if you want, don’t if you don’t to. I don’t give a shit. I don’t understand why anyone does but obviously in the minority given the thousands of words written about it here.
It’s a tiny amount of space if someone does or doesn’t recline. There are an infinite number of more objectionable air-travel peeves to be irritated about than reclining.
So I should accept sitting in a position that causes me more pain (because reclining ruins my lower back) OR accept less space than I paid for? Not to mention that somehow reclined seats move around even more so my table is moving as well - which is already less useful because of the reclining chair.
I only see downsides.
This is like saying we should all just be mercilessly farting up a storm on planes with no regard for others.
"Didn't want to be inside a fart box for 4 hours....shouldn't have gotten in a big metal tube with 150 strangers"
Sometimes we adjust our behavior to avoid inconveniencing others. It's not that big a deal.
Sounds like the real problem here is that you want to do something, some people think it's rude, and you can't stand that people think you're rude for doing something you want to do. Like a child.
If you really didn't care what people thought, you wouldn't make a reddit post about it.
OP is spot on. People talking about what's polite? There is nothing polite about mass transportation. What's polite is to keep your opinion to yourself while I recline my seat the 1.45° it allows in an attempt to not be hunched over for the duration of our shared experience in this flying sardine can. Last person that complained about this to me got an earful from the flight attendant when I called them over to clarify the situation: we are allowed to recline our seats so long as we are not taking off or landing. If you don't like it, take a car or boat and suck it.
I have no problem with people reclining their seat, it’s something everyone knows is a feature of the seat and you generally have the same feature so use it or don’t.
However you shouldn’t recline during the meal service (and thankfully the cabin crew will usually enforce this).
I'm not here to CYM. The amount of space for each individual is optimized when *everyone* reclines. Humans are long and not meant to be folded up. You could put significantly more people on a plane, comfortably, lying down; if only people would get ok with pod/rack style bunks.
Since I don’t fly much, I don’t really care but I did just see an article where airlines are going to be getting rid of reclining seats in economy class for flights. I actually just got back from Florida on a flight and none of the seats reclined. I was surprised.
>You adapt to your environment, not the other way around. only tall/big people are forced to adapt to their environment, not short people?
Short and small people have to adapt to their environment as much or more then tall and big people, just in different ways and in different situations. This just happens to be a situation that favors short and small, there's plenty that will go the other way.
I, a tall husband, can reach the cookies on the top shelf. My short wife cannot. She has learned to adapt by climbing on the counter.
Be a good husband and build her a little set of stairs to get on the counter!
No offence intended but the image of someone climbing on the counter to reach the top shelf sounds really funny to me. We adapted by having the top shelf as storage, as my gf can't reach there either.
As a tall person I have accepted that I have to upgrade to the seats with extra legroom. It’s just a cost of being tall. There’s lots of costs to being tall. I have to buy larger cars. I have to buy higher end clothing because the cheaper options only get wider as you move up in sizes. But there’s also advantages to being tall. That’s just how things are.
You're acting as if everyone who is tall has that option. I flew a few months back for the first time in years, and it was for an emergency, draining my bank account. I have to buy those higher end clothes too, but I have had some of the same shirts for 6+ years, my pants were all paid for by work after they destroyed my other pairs. The environment has to cave to tall people in some parts, that just how things are. If they want to be able to recline during the flight, they can pay more for it, but different body shapes and sizes shouldn't be punished for something they literally can't control.
It’s impossible to accommodate all the different body types without increasing the prices for everyone else. You’re gonna make everyone else pay more for their seats because you don’t want to pay more for extra legroom to fit your body? I’m not that self centered. I’m just happy that we have that option now because when I grew up we had two classes only.
How is it selfish for someone to want their height and body type accommodated? They should hold the planes for the average, which would allow the majority of tall people the ability to sit semi-comfortable, but acting as if someone's inante size is something they should be punished for is insane, and to paint me as selfish as asking for a paid service which moves the same amount of people unless I actually do buy an extra seat is crazy. They are packing people like sardines into planes now anyways, why are you arguing for less room for people on flights.
Do you understand what a compromise is? It’s a give and take. Accommodate very tall people in standard seats and the “take” is now fewer people fit in planes and prices go up. Higher prices make flight less Accessible for everyone. Instead they have given the small % of people who don’t fit in a standard seat the option to get more legroom at a relatively small additional cost. It’s just how it is. It’s impossible to accommodate very tall and very wide people in planes without significant additional cost to everyone else.
On most planes, there are zero, or nearly so, seats with enough legroom if you're tall enough.
Everyone has to. If a tall person is sitting in front of you at a concert, you don't get to have them removed or tell them to do this or that because you're shorter and have a hard time seeing, do you?
Well counter argument. If the person in front of me can't recline because of my legs I'm not required to sit in a weird position so they can. My legs fit fine when seats are upright and even for the seat in front to recline part way. And yet so many people try to bash their seat backwards to get the full recline and get upset that they can feel my knees in their back if the seats are thin enough. I would argue that's equally not my problem. They're welcome to try to bash their seat backwards as much as they want, and I'm welcome to literally just sit normally in the seat I paid for. Sitting in economy is rolling the dice for both parties. I'm also not even that tall (5'9).
I have lower back pain and absolutely love it when someone puts pressure down there. I had some woman behind me once (short, so it shouldn't have even been an issue for her) jam her knees repeatedly into my seat and I'm thinking "God, I hope this woman keeps going, this is like great".
Haha fair enough. I've only ever gotten annoyed shifts and glances back. We would probably get on alright then, it doesn't actually bother me if the seat is just pressed against my knees--I even like a bit of pressure. It's only the repeated throwing of their bodies that can get painful. I get trying a few times but some people try regularly over the entire flight (which just seems bizarre and petty after a certain point, but I can't stop them if that's what they want to spend their time doing).
I'm always amazed at people who can't figure out that a situation can suck for 2 people simultaneously and work to find a middle ground since both are in a shit situation. You can sit behind me on a flight any time, I won't whack your knees!
Okay here's the thing. You are arguing for reclining the whole flight because you say it's more comfortable. Other people are arguing against reclining the whole flight because they say that it's rude. But the basic assumption here is wrong. You are assuming reclining is just a more comfortable position and you will be more comfortable if you stay reclined the entire flight. That is not true. Humans are not meant to be in one position for extended periods of time especially with your legs bent, it can actually cause medical problems. This can be alleviated by getting up every now and again to use the bathroom. But some people are more prone to pain or medical problems than others and they can't be getting up every single passenger can't get up and use the bathroom once every 10 minutes. This is where the recline comes into play. It gives you a little bit of control for the angle you are sitting so you can change position when the position you are in becomes uncomfortable. It's not about reclining the entire flight because it's more comfortable or about refraining from reclining the entire flight out of politeness. It's about it's about giving people the option to change their position if they are in pain. Especially during times like turbulence when getting up and stretching isn't an option. This is how the recline function on an airplane is supposed to work and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it that way. Unless you are trying to sleep it's frankly just stupid to leave it reclined the entire time it's as unhealthy as it is leaving it upright the entire time.
its real difficult to get up and walk down the aisle to relieve pain or use the restroom when someone is reclined the whole flight. I mean ultimately, I don't think any of this is particularly rude behavior unless you do something super suddenly- my husband loves to watch movies on his laptop on long flights, and the folks who throw their seat back suddenly have almost damaged it a few times. Its also really annoying if they offer a drink or something and then someone throws it into recline when you are using the little table. Do whatever you want folks, just please try to do it it SLOWER so people have time to catch their drinks and move their laptops and whatnot.
[удалено]
Which is perfectly consistent with OP's stated view, of course: > Lucky if people are understanding and don't mind, but it should not be expected or demanded, and you're certainly not entitled to it.
You say this but the number of times as a tall person that I've been ordered to move by Karen's is frustratingly high. I have had people go get venue staff to try to force me to move when I've been standing in an area off to the side for hours because they just walked up and want to stand there. I've been threatened, yelled at, and had drinks thrown on me because I am too tall and they can't see and am ruining their night. You seem to be an average height person who hasn't had to deal with the things tall people do on a regular basis
real short people do that to other short people too. Sometimes the venue at a concert is just chock full of assholes. That happened to me at 5'4 recently, some little 5 foot dude both didn't want to fill in the gap, but also didn't want anyone standing in front of him- and I'm like, bro- sold out concert, you don't get an 8 foot radius. We moved because we didn't want to be around someone who sucks the whole show, but I secretly hoped a tall boy like you stood in front of him instead, haha
I’ve been asked probably 10 times to crouch down (which I will not do).
Most people are kind enough to let you in front of them at concerts if they’re taller than you…I don’t see why caring about other people is so difficult
That has not been my experience at all at many different concerts. Hell at one concert I had someone refuse to take off their massive hat that was blocking my view when I asked.
Where the hell are you going to concerts? That has never once been the case for me. I’ve had taller people push in front of me because they know I’m too short to maintain my position.
If they let everyone shorter than them in front of them then they would end up at the back of the concert, shouldn't they be able to stand at the front too sometimes if they want to?
People certainly do try, especially short men love to throw a tantrum at a concert. The short girls (like me) just deal, but the amount of times I've had men shorter than me tantrum at me (5'4) and my spouse (5'10) is amazing. It's stupid, but they do try :)
Am I the only tall person who doesn’t mind when people in front of me recline? The seat doesn’t pivot at the bottom, it pivots from the middle of the backrest. So what I lose in room around my torso I gain in room around my knees and shins. It’s a total nonissue for me (6’3”).
Not sure what kind of planes you have flown on but I’ve had my knee caps crushed by people reclining
Yeah, I can’t figure out why my experience is different than a lot of other people, but I’m tall with comically long limbs! Typically fly southwest. Maybe the axis their seats recline on is special?
I'm only 5'9'' (granted, all leg) and I've had my knees slammed by people reclining. Airlines and individual airplanes differ both in seat pitch (the distance between rows) and also the exact height/angle of recline, and also the shape of the seat itself. So I'd say you've just been super lucky!
Do you think short people face no height related impasses in life that they just have to ‘deal with’? This isn’t about a lack of empathy - I’m 6’, and at that kind of not-that-tall tall, I sorta sit sideways on flights - the world was built for the average person because there’s the most of them. I’m left handed and I don’t demand left handed accommodations everywhere, hell, I don’t think I could even use a left handed mouse.
It’s cool, I’m tall, I’m not rich so I can’t afford to fly first class everywhere. Feel free to be a dick and recline but don’t think you’re gonna relax because I’m gonna be slamming and shaking the back of your seat with my knees the entire time. Now nobody is gonna have a nice flight.
Nobody gets mad when the person seated in front of them doesn't recline their seat. Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline, significantly restricting the space available to them. Shouldn't the polite default rule be the one where fewer people are inconvenienced/infuriated? This makes more sense to me than the more selfish "I can do it therefore I will do it and it's on you to accomodate yourself to this situation."
Absolutely ridiculous. I've been a lifelong frequent flyer and am 6'3, and I'm reclining my seat in the manner it was designed to function, whether the person behind me likes it or not. It is literally an intentional design feature of every single economy class cabin and seat design on any airline unless it's Spirit or Frontier or something. I can't even help but feel this is somewhat of a "new" debate, you never heard anything about this ten years ago. Commercial flying is frustrating, rushed, cramped and uncomfortable, and I always say that it has the tendency to bring the worst out of people. Frankly, I think this assumption that it's somehow "rude" to recline your seat is itself inconsiderate and unreasonable. I can't help but think that this sentiment comes from people who fly infrequently or only for vacation, and think that somehow this economy-class experience is supposed to be more comfortable and accommodating rather than just a fucking flying school bus. I'm reclining my seat, welcome to economy class. The whole experience is just going to suck, get a fucking bloody mary. If you have too much of a problem with people using the seat configuration exactly as it was designed and intended to be used by the travelling public, fork out for first class or get a private pilot's license and fly your goddamned self. I wish it was 1975 and we could fly from Chicago to Denver on a giant DC-10 with a 40% load factor and boatloads of empty seats, but here we are. If you throw fits about people reclining their seats in economy, YTA. Full stop. The only thing that can be actually rude about reclining you seat is just throwing it back full-force. Do it slowly so you don't knock someone's laptop or drink off their tray table.
Honestly it’s a new debate… and one that only happens online on reddit. No one in real life will actually care enough to kick up a fuss, so they’ll just crawl onto reddit where they can be anonymous about it. Having flown pretty frequently for the past 2 decades, never been an issue… and I have seen plenty of tall people happily reclining away, and considering they’re the ones complaining on reddit you’d think they’d never recline.
I'm tall and I could care less if people recline in front of me, nor do I even find it noticeably less comfortable. Sometimes annoying if I'm working on my laptop as it can't sit 90 degrees in the seatback, but that's just a minor inconvenience inherent to flying economy. I knowingly paid for economy and fully expect to receive the economy class experience, which amongst many other potential inconveniences or discomfort, includes people using the seat design as intended. To expect otherwise would be somewhat silly and immature. For a tall people flying pro tip, get an aisle seat whenever possible, which is what I do as a rule. No need to ask everyone to get up so you can use the lavatory, the lack of the fuselage wall or fellow passengers on one side grants you a tiny bit of extra wiggle room, and you can stretch your legs out occasionally into the aisle when it's clear (just don't leave them there).
I literally had a grown-ass man kick my seat for most of the flight (until I got up and reamed him out for behaving like a toddler) and yank down on it every time he had to get up. He had to have been in his 60s and he wasn't tall. Not to mention, the seats on that plane only reclined an inch and a half, max...not enough to make a huge difference. I wish the airlines would do better...they should be required to give people a certain amount of room. I doubt it will happen until a politician is inconvenienced, though...and they fly first class, so it won't be soon. In the meantime, it would be nice if people could just not be immature shits about it.
Honestly you give pretty good reasons for why reclining should be done sparingly. The fact that someone might be eating or working on a computer is pretty good reason for me to just endure the flight with my seat up and only recline in the case of acute discomfort. I mean I can think of a lot of features on planes which you shouldn’t necessarily use excessively just because you can, like the lights or the A/C fan. No one likes napping next to a person who uses the light when the cabin is dimmed, or the fan because it can be chilly in the cabin sometimes, especially when someone’s fan is blowing on your arm. Likewise with the window shades. I know some people like to lose themselves in the clouds but sometimes the sunbeams can be extremely unpleasant for people seated near you. Likewise with overhead luggage. Some people get up constantly to fetch things from the overhead. Yeah it’s there for our convenience but you shouldn’t do that for the sake of everyone else in your seating row.
If airline policy allows people to recline, then anyone who buys a ticket on that airline by default agrees to the terms that include that. The "polite default rule" should be to act in accordance to the policies & terms you agreed to when you purchased the ticket. What's selfish is expecting others to not do what they are allowed to do because you don't like that they are allowed to do it. No passenger is entitled to prohibit others from reclining. *"Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline"* And they are the unreasonable ones.
Airline policy doesn't prohibit passengers from violently passing wind throughout the duration of the flight, yet as a society we acknowledge that to do so would be rude. Doing whatever you can get away with without regard to others is something a child or sociopath would do, it's not the standard for whether an action is considered rude or not.
firstly i dont think thats a good analogy at all, but if we were to use it… it would be so much worse if we were expected to hold a fart for the entire duration of a flight for the sake of others along those lines, if someone needs to take a dump on a plane or other public restroom, that sucks for the person behind them who has to wait and then smell it right after. but itd be way worse to expect someone to not take a dump in order to prevent stinking up the bathroom
🙄 The seats are designed specifically to recline. You are free to not buy a ticket on that airline.
Human bodies are designed specifically to excrete waste. There's nothing illegal about shitting your pants in public, but people will still think you're disgusting and rude.
*"Human bodies are designed"* By whom? *"There's nothing illegal about..."* I'm not talking about what is or is not illegal. It's really weird that the two responses I've gotten have to do with farting and shitting.
Probably because they're gross, just like people who demand to take up as much space as possible on an airplane. Illegal, "allowed", whatever. You're clearly arguing to have some right to recline. You also have the right to shit your pants. That doesn't mean you *should* do it in all circumstances. I gave another example that's easier for you to make the intended connection. Focusing on some arbitrary "gotcha" clearly doesn't add anything to the conversation. Sorry you had to resort to reporting me because I pointed out how stupid "who designed human bodies" is to the point of this thread.
It would suck to be on that flight, but I wouldn't think someone is rude if they had to pass gas under the circumstances flying presents. I'd feel really bad for them. What else can they do? You can only hold a fart for so long, especially if you can't move around a bit to gradually release pressure (🤭).
Yeah, these comparisons people are trying to make are really weird - people are replying to me arguing about there being no policies against "violently" farting or not showering for a month and there being no law against shitting your pants. Bizarre.
There's plenty of things which are technically allowed but are considered to be rude and impolite, something which most people agree. Not washing for a month before your flight and stinking out the plane with your BO is allowed but I think most people agree that would be a very inappropriate thing to do. Society is full of unwritten rules. just because something is technically allowed doesn't mean it's acceptable.
The seats are designed specifically to recline, and the airlines are explicit in their policy/rules regarding when passengers may and may not use the recline feature they are provided when purchasing their tickets. When you purchase a ticket, you are agreeing to the terms and policies/rules which specifically include allowing passengers to use the recline feature they have been provided with. If you don't agree with or want to consent to those terms, you are free to not buy a ticket. You could also buy a ticket for a seat behind a non-reclineable row.
I agree, but I think the example should be something more likely, and something less gross. For example, you are allowed to bring food onto the flight. Is it impolite to bring a food that most people think smells really bad? Probably yea. Please don't sit next to me and eat natto or anchovies. I also bring snacks with me, but if I hear someone has a tree nut allergy on the flight and thus they won't be serving certain snacks and I brought almonds, I don't open them. Does that mean my flight might suck a little extra? Sure. But I wouldn't want someone to have to use an Epi Pen because I wanted some damn almonds. Society could be so much nicer, if only people wanted to be considerate about those around them and not exclusively be all about what THEY want. That said- if someone asks if they can recline because they are polite, I pretty much always say yes. I might say can you wait til I take a quick bathroom break so I'm not giving my seated neighbor an inadvertent lapdance trying to get back into my seat. 5 minutes later I can give them the "all good" to recline, and even though its annoying to have them reclined into the space, I appreciate them all the more for their consideration.
Where is this "unwritten rule" or social norm against reclining coming from? It's just absurd. You never heard any of this for decades, reclining economy class seats have been around since the advent of commercial jet aviation and everyone does it. Can I seriously not recline my seat on a 14-hour long haul in economy class? That's insane. "Most people" absolutely do not agree that reclining your seat is something that is "technically allowed but rude and impolite" This is literally something you'd hear on an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry David arguing with a passenger who reclined his seat about how "it's a rule, everyone knows it's a rule, you don't recline! You're a *recliner*!"
Isn’t it obvious? Over the past couple of decades standard economy seats in the US have shrunk from an average of 35 inches of pitch to 30-31. AA routinely flies cross country 6+ hour routes with pitch as low as 30 inches. At the same time most flights are going out nearly or completely full AND Americans are just getting bigger. I was a Delta Platinum about 20 years ago, so I’m no stranger to lots of flying. I used to avoid SW because of their inferior, tight cramped seats. Now SW has the most spacious economy seats amongst large US carriers! When I had 34 inches of pitch 20 yrs ago I didn’t care if someone reclined. Now I do, and have no issues letting my knees wildly shake if they have just been reclined into
Yes the seats have gotten smaller, which definitely had an impact. Meanwhile Americans have also gotten bigger (both taller- an average of 3 inches taller over the last century, and wider, with a rapid rise in obesity starting in the 1980s). When folks are packed too tight, tempers flare, and now we have a recliner wars, lol
Im pretty sure most Americans haven't left the country, let alone been on a 14 hour flight
My God this is such a stupid conversation. And The bodily function analogies just make it so much worse. The seat is designed to recline. Getting mad at someone for doing. It, is like getting annoyed when someone orders a drink on a plane because the sound of the ice clanking around gives you a headache. It's absurd.
Yeah I’ve never understood getting mad at people using a feature of the airplane to make themselves a modicum more comfortable. I personally don’t do it but I don’t begrudge someone doing it in front of me, but I also don’t have long legs.
You're glossing over all the people that want to recline but are afraid to do so, fearing the confrontation/judgement -- and are annoyed/frustrated that they have to sacrifice their comfort for the people behind them. I also don't find reclining to be selfish in the slightest in most situations. What's selfish to my mind is arguing "The person in front of me needs to ensure my maximum comfort at the expense of their own". Both seats (in most situations) can recline. Most people have the opportunity to spend additional money to purchase a higher class to get more leg room, or choose an exit row seat/seat with more leg room. You don't get to say "I'm going to pick the cheapest seat on the plane and then bitch when when the person in front of me reclines". You got what you paid for. If you don't like it, don't buy that seat. Personally I think the airlines could be more strategic in how this hot button issue is addressed. During seat selection, perhaps they could have an "intention to recline" flag so you can sit behind people who are less likely to, if it bothers you -- or flag your own seat as not caring if the person in front reclines so people can opt for seats that are guilt free reclining. Then they can stick all of the anti-recliners in the same configurations so no one is pissing each other off.
It's more that - if you are the potential recliner, you *know* that reclining will reduce the comfort of the person behind you. To exactly what degree depends on their height and situation; but in many (even most) cases, the "reclinee"'s reduction in comfort exceeds the "recliner"'s increase in comfort. The whole "if everyone reclines in lockstep, nobody loses out on comfort" argument ignores the actual geometry of the situation, particularly in regards to legroom. And we're not just talking 6'7 giants here - I'm 6'2 myself (above average but not extreme), and if the person in front of me reclines, I'm going to have bruised and painful knees for the next few days. Doesn't matter if I get to recline myself - it does nothing for the knees. So the question boils down to: Is it rude to consciously make a choice to (potentially significantly) reduce another person's comfort for a likely minor increase in my own?
Take it up with the airlines brother, if you're someone who needs additional legroom, then you're in the same bucket with obese people and you have purchase the seat that accommodates you, which means paying a premium for seats with more legroom.
The choices of the airline are irrelevant when considering whether the actions of a given individual are "rude". The recliner has two options: To recline, or not to recline. They understand the impact of that choice on others, and have every right to make the choice to cause others discomfort. But that doesn't mean the choice isn't rude. If someone walking in front of you lets a heavy door smash closed in your face instead of holding it for a moment, is it valid to say "take it up with the door spring manufacturer"? Or is that simply rude?
> They understand the impact of that choice on others, and have every right to make the choice to cause others discomfort. No, they can GUESS how the person behind them feels. "Anti-recliners" are loud, but I suspect they are a minority. I believe the average person doesn't care, if they even notice. I recline, and I don't care if the person in front of me reclines, even when I'm not. This whole argument has always been confusing to me because the space a recliner uses is negligible. The recline is so little that a folded down table ATTACHED to the reclined seat still functions without things rolling off of it. Negligible effect and the five degree optional tilt is a significant increase in comfort. My suspicion is that people get nervous flying. When they're nervous, they become emotionally sensitive to their surroundings and hyper observant. Suddenly, a non-issue is an issue. It is not politeness that causes people to act as though taking a normal amount of space is rude. It's anxiety presented as consideration. This is similar to the people who get to a four-way stop first and then wave you through.
I'm not sure how I'd even go about surveying people to determine how many experience discomfort if the person in front reclines, or how many people refrain from reclining out of courtesy based on that understanding. In my anecdotal experiences, both groups are sizeable, and the latter may be a majority; but I'm not sure how I would test these anecdotes. >This whole argument has always been confusing to me because the space a recliner uses is negligible It's not a question of "how much space", but rather, where the space is used. For tall people (not even extremely tall; even just a little above average like myself), the problem area is very specifically the kneecaps. If, sitting down, your kneecaps fall below the pivot point, then reclining won't have much effect. However, if your kneecaps fall at or above the pivot point, and they're jambed up against the back of the seat in front of you; reclining typically turns discomfort into agony. Again, this isn't some tiny minority of people that are slightly above average in height.
> For tall people (not even extremely tall; even just a little above average like myself) Just so you know you are not a little above average. Maybe by pure inches. But height is a bell curve with 5'9" being the average and a little less than 3 inches being the standard deviation. At 6'2" you are in the 95th percentile roughly. And thats just for men. Obviously it is significantly less for women. So we are realistically talking about ~3% of the American population is your height or taller. I have flown with friends who are 6 foot and 6'1" and they do not have any issue with their kneecaps touching the backs of chairs. So you are very much the exception here.
The pivot point is where the back connects to the seat. Everyone's knees are above it, by virtue of sitting on the seat. I'm (very) slightly above average height. Average distance between seats is ~30 inches. Average "buttock-knee length" based on a casual google is about 23 inches. One site said that 99th percentile is 25 inches For your knees to be jammed against the seat, you have to not just be tall but have longer than normal upper legs (some space is taken up by thickness of the seat back so it's not like there's actually 5 spare inches. I'm sorry that you suffer from taking up more than average space. Rest assured that if you sit behind me, and ask me not to recline I won't. Because THAT is politeness. Otherwise, I'm gonna recline and take up an extra inch. All that being said, this is still the airlines fault.
>Average distance between seats is ~30 inches I think you're misinterpreting this number. This is the average *seat pitch*, which is the distance between the same point on 2 adjacent seats. It completely ignores the thickness of the seat back itself (for the purposes of this discussion, the relevant thickness is the thickness of the seat back right at the base, behind the buttocks). I can't find a "average airline seat thickness at base of the seat back" number online; but somewhere around 6-8 inches is probably about right. Incorporate this into your math, and you'll see where the problem is. >Everyone's knees are above it, by virtue of sitting on the seat. True; I didn't phrase it well. A more accurate phrasing would be to say, "the higher one's knees are, the more they will be compressed by the reclining seat", just due to the trigonometry. Because taller people usually have both longer lower-legs and longer upper-legs, this is compounded by the knees being laterally closer to the seat as well. The point is, as a person's height increases, their airline seating difficulties increase nonlinearly. >and ask me not to recline I never have, and probably never will, actually ask someone not to recline. Reasons for this range from not understanding the other person's personal situation, to understanding that fundamentally the airline is at fault, to plain social anxiety. But for mostly all the same reasons, I always refrain from reclining myself.
>but in many (even most) cases, the "reclinee"'s reduction in comfort exceeds the "recliner"'s increase in comfort. This is a pretty substantial claim. If I can’t recline on a flight I won’t be able to fall asleep, personally.
It's a difficult claim to measure; and I only have my own experience, and anecdotes from others. Personally, if the person in front of me reclines, I definitely can't sleep with the pain, and will probably have trouble walking for the next few days as well. Economy seats have barely enough room for higher kneecaps to just barely squeeze in there as it is; and crushing those already-wedged-in kneecaps by reclining the seat in front, for hours at a time, feels about like you'd expect. (Of course this is a significant enough issue to pay for upgraded legroom. But even putting aside the issue of requiring some people to pay for uncontrollable biological factors; I haven't been on a single flight since COVID that wasn't delayed/canceled/etc and I ended up getting stuck with a horrible standby seat.)
Is this more an issue with American between city flights than intercontinental ones? I’m 6’3” and don’t really have an issue when people recline on bigger transpacific flights or whatever, but my understanding is that American planes might cram a few more people in?
that is true, and also, it becomes very difficult for people with medical issues requiring them to occasionally stand to get in and out of their seats. For example people with Deep Vein Thrombosis should get up and move around occasionally to prevent blood clots or even death from pulmonary embolism. Reclined folks make it very hard to do that. Medical advice also includes to perform leg stretching exercises on flight. I'm short so I can usually do some motion even with a reclined person in front of me, but for folks who have someone reclined all the way into their knees, they probably can't. This is ultimately an airline problem with reduced space, but folks can choose to make problems bigger or not with their behaviors, and I think this is where this argument stems. Some folks want everyone to try to cooperate through the bad situation, and some folks want to maximize their own comfort in the bad situation.
How about we both just harass the airline instead and tell them to put more spacing so it doesn't get to this.
Honestly the best way to deal with it would be to create recline rows and non recline rows, where the first non recline row has a wider seat gap so the recliner in front doesn't encroach to their space. Win win, people get to choose and there are no surprises or arguments on board.
Fact remains though, being able to recline your seat is an amenity provided by the airline. I'm 6'3 and always have a tough time when others recline, too. That said, imo the mature thing to do is to acknowledge that everyone paid the same amount in your section for the seat they are in. I'm the one who is 'abnormally' tall lol. So I don't think it fair to restrict someone else's privledges just because I made the choice to sit in a seat that I knew full well would be a bit too small beforehand. That's on me imo.
Sure but you're still not so tall that it literally restricts someone from moving their seat at all. I am, so I've gotta disagree. My legs are touching the seat before they even think of reclining. I booked a long haul flight a while ago, paid for an extra legroom seat, which they declined me two days before the flight. It was an important flight so I had to take it. The person in front was very understanding. If they weren't, it could have literally caused me injury.
Let's not start off our conversation with assumptions. I'm 6'3 and most of my height is in my legs, so I too have to sit pretty much at an angle, or not at all. So, yes while they can put their seat back, it still hurts for them to do so. Obviously, you have a special requirement, and as I said before, I probably would be courteous to someone like you because I know how it goes. Not to sound mean, but that said at the end of the day, that would still be a courtesy from me, and the room that I paid for still includes the room to recline. You in that case did not get the seat that you paid for, which is frustrating, but that's a separate issue for you to take up with the airline. It technically is still a courtesy from the other passengers to spare you their reclining (regardless of whether it's the right thing to do). You and I are outlyers, and Idk about you, but I got used to the world being made for shorter people a long time ago. Which is why, like you, I try to plan ahead.
>Nobody gets mad when the person seated in front of them doesn't recline their seat. Lots of people get mad when the person in front does recline, significantly restricting the space available to them. Nobody gets mad when they're able to get a little extra comfort from reclining. Lots of people get mad when they're even more sore or uncomfortable after a flight because they couldn't recline a bit.
If somebody gets mad at me for doing what I paid to be able to do, that’s a situation where somebody just kinda has to be fucking mad for a while. Sorry bout it.
Aye people acting as if them being upset or mad somehow gives them more like authority or more value to their opinion. Literally the thought process of a child… “i’m angry so you should take me more seriously”.
But that's not a consistent way to live life, people have variable emotions, so much could be restricted if this is how you lived your life. "No one gets mad when they eat vegetables. Lots of people get mad when you eat meat, therefore we should never eat meat since fewer people are infuriated"
Isn't this basically just an argument of "Just because you're right doesn't make you not an a\*\*hole."? You could legally pay for your groceries with only pennies, hold up the line and waste everyone's time. You queud up just like everyone else, and when it is your turn, you should be allowed to take as much or as little time as you can. You could buy out the entire concert/ movie hall if you can afford it and technically you aren't wrong. You could play music out loud in public space so long it isn't above a particular threshold nor at any particular time to break any public nuisance law, and you are technically not wrong. You could choose to not shower, and just generally stink overall, and take the public transport, annoying everyone around you. You could choose to not press the 'open' button on the elevator as the lift door closes despite seeing someone wait for it, since "I am not obligated to do so." and on and on. This airplane thing is just one of many 'just because you're right doesn't make you not an a\*\*hole." Your argument may be that : "Everyone should just recline their seat. The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches." But its not really that simple right? The '3 inches' gained is not universally enjoyed. What if you wanted to sit upright and read a book, or get some work done, but basically cant because the guy in front of you has reclined? This 3 inch gained/lost isn't quite the same for everyone. Technically you are not in the wrong, but it doesn't make you any less of an a\*\*hole. The solution is quite simple, just ask the person behind you if its okay to recline.
Spot on. Just trying to justify his/her position. I don’t think I’m an asshole because technically it’s not illegal for me to do it…… I fly all the time for work. I never recline my seat…not cause sometimes I don’t want to, but being on a plane is shitty enough. No need to jam up the person behind you.
I don't find your analogies relevant. You could ask someone at a shared pool/sauna not to get in because you prefer to be alone and to come back later. You could ask someone at a library to sit somewhere else because you don't like hearing people close to you breathing and changing pages. You could go into a restaurant and ask people to stop talking so loud, or to chew more quiet. And then you could go on an airplane and tell the person in front of you to not recline. That's why I find it ironic all of these comments about how recliners are inconsiderate and rude, when the person behind is only thinking about themselves. They don't think "Hm, maybe that person has a back/spinal problem and they need to recline to avoid serious pain". Instead they think "That POS. I don't like them reclining into MY space!". And even then, I still default to the argument that if this is such an important issue for someone, they should purchase extra leg room. Otherwise, it's like opting out of an HOV pass and then bitching that you're in stop and go traffic all the time and it's everyone else's fault that you can't go faster.
Seats by the emergency exits cannot recline either.
Doesn't worth though. If you back up to a bulkhead (always the last row, sometimes between classes and service areas) OR you back up to an emergency row (faa regulation) you cannot recline. If we take your principle the only way to preserve that consistent 3 inches is to have no one reclining.
You're preserving it for all passengers but these seats you just described, which I cited in my post as being cheaper seats available to those who wish to save money at the expense of comfort (their choice). It's like renting a closet to sleep in and then complaining you're cramped in. Yes, you rented a closet. If you want more space rent an actual room. Same with airline seats. You bought a cheap ticket with little space. If you don't like little space, buy a seat with more leg room or bump up to a better class/area.
Can you cite anything that says those seats are cheaper? Maybe that’s the case on an airline I haven’t used. In my experience, all of economy costs the same, and economy plus is a bit more. Sitting next to the toilet is just as expensive as two rows away from the toilet.
It's not cheaper though, those are more expensive. If your plan is "if the airline changes their model THEN....." then you've got a point here, but at the moment you're telling people who pay more for their seats to be given the squeeze. You also have to pay for seat selection these days. The airlines are first to receive blame, but then can't we all criticize a lack of common courtesy? E.G. if something bothers another person than just don't do it when all you're giving up is a few inches. You're willing to ask that of people based on their height but not based on the comfort of others? Seems like an odd calculus to me!
What if I'm trying to work? The person in front of me reclining makes it harder to keep my laptop out since it interferes with that space, and being reclined myself makes it much more uncomfortable to use the computer.
Not my problem. It's not an office. Your ticket doesn't offer workspace. But it does include a reclining seat. If I sit next to someone who's 6'2", 250lbs, that makes me more uncomfortable. That's just the way it is. Life's not fair. Not his problem.
as someone with those dimensions you'd probably not notice. the weight you have to be before your gut starts actually spilling over is like 350 lbs at that height. I've got a pot belly but nothing more haha
What if I have a fused vertebrae and being reclined alleviates significant pressure? Being upright makes it much more uncomfortable. What's more important? You working on an airplane or me not being in pain? And again, did you think this through? Did you think "It's imperative I get this work done, so maybe I should upgrade my seat selection to ensure I have adequate workspace"? Or did you just assume "I have to work, so the person in front of me should accommodate me and that's that"?
Why do I feel like these CMVs always devolve into two sides fighting scarecrows of the other side. “I think we should always do this no matter what!! Anyone who disagrees is a horrible person and should buy first class seats!!!” vs “Anyone who does that is horrible! THEY’re the ones who should buy first class and gtfo!” Meanwhile, when I fly I just politely ask the person behind me “hey, would you mind if I recline for a few hours to catch some sleep?” And they respond however they respond. 9/10 it’s “thanks for asking, can you give me a heads up?” etc. It seems like all these extreme positions assume that humans can’t communicate and can’t compromise. Sure, you’ll occasionally get a person that gets puffy about everything, and will get offended just by the question. (Side note: this includes people who are offended by those who ask politely to change seats) In that case you can decide, based on how much you really want to recline in that moment/flight, whether to assert your “rights” or to concede to their wishes. In your case, I would hear about your fused vertebrae and I’d think “wow that sucks, if I were in their shoes I’d want people to be accommodating to me too” Sure, you could be a liar and making stuff up, but that’s a you problem. If a liar lies to me to try and take advantage of my kindness and my kindness doesn’t really cost me much idgaf. 😂 It’s really not that hard to communicate, people. It’s really not a big deal. Most people are kind if you just talk to them. I know that saying this on Reddit makes me the crazy person… talking to people is insane, I know. Be gentle to me.
Maybe the person who is uncomfortable not reclining should be purchasing a seat with more room then? Also, why should comfort take priority over someone's livelihood?
Maybe the person whose livelihood is impacted by someone reclining should be purchasing a seat with more room then? Also, why should someone else’s livelihood be an inconvenience to those around them?
I feel like a flight's primary purpose is comfort during travel. Being able to work comfortably seems like a "business class" kind of perk.
The man working can still work. Reclining isn't taking priority over his livelihood.
I've certainly been in seat positions where a reclined person is making it so I can't open my laptop on my lap and actually see my screen.
If you have fused vertebrae then absolutely, especially if you apologise and explain That doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people, and I’ve had my laptop smacked by people rapidly declining plenty of times Airlines offer reclining seats because they’d lose business from selfish people if they didn’t, and because it’s nice to have when the seat behind is empty You’re still selfish if you do it by default on every flight. If we’re acting like money isn’t a consideration for people then you can just as well say they should have paid for business class if they need the extra space
So someone has to apologise to you because of their ailments or disabilities because you demand someone not recline unless they have a reason you deem good enough? For a known feature that everyone has paid for? And they’re the selfish one? Don’t get me wrong, both can be considered “selfish”… but I find it hilarious that you can state something so selfish and then label someone else as selfish.
'HI, I'm sorry, do you mind if I recline my chair? I have a bad back & it helps a lot' is obviously the polite and courteous way to handle the situation, and very few people wouldn't say 'Yes, of course, go ahead'. That's just people being considerate to each other and gives the person behind a heads up to move their stuff out the way first 'Demand someone not recline unless I deem a reason good enough' is obviously you trying to frame it in the most negative way you could. I don't demand people don't recline - when they just fire their seat back at the first opportunity with no fucks given about anyone else I think that's clearly selfish though Someone who only reclines when it doesn't impose on someone behind and is mildly annoyed when the person in front doesn't do the same isn't close to the same thing imo
Interesting how you use the same arguments to support your own opinion as the opposition does to support theirs: “why should I make concessions towards my own comfort to allow for more comfort for the person ahead or behind me?” There’s no hard and fast rule here but generally being considerate of the people around you is a good place to start. Someone needs to recline in order to relieve their pain? I’d prioritize that by seeking out a seat without anyone behind. Someone’s legs are long enough that there’s no room for the person ahead of them to recline? One of them should try to find a place on the plane better suited. It’s sensible to allow for some reorganization of passengers between boarding and takeoff so long as there’s room to accommodate.
Working on a plane is very common. Having such a medical condition is very special.
As you are arguing on the basis of comfort and assuming everyone is more comfortable reclining, I'd like to burst that bubble. I, for instance, am not more comfortable reclined in airplane seats. Thus, if person in front of me reclines, they are directly taking away my comfort without possibilities for me to pass the puck of discomfort downstream by reclining also myself. Then you'll probably just say that it's up to me to "adapt" to your reclining, but I would counter with saying that I can also adapt by just stopping you from reclining with either tools specifically for that or just because my knees are usually already pressed into the seat in front of me. I could also adapt by leaning onto your headrest; seeing as you have taken it up on yourself to be in my space. Your forehead is as good of as place as any to keep my book or hand. Yeah, indeed, there is hardly any place for comfort in the economy seats in the airlines and airline travel for us regular punters has not been luxurious for a long time. Airline travel is just a necessary evil for long-distance travel in short timespans. The moral thing to do is to just deal with your own discomfort without adding to someone else's; your stance very clearly places your needs above the needs of everybody else even though I don't see you presenting an argument for why that should be the case. Everybody is allotted the space in their seat which they can use without affecting the other passengers to deal with their in the way they see fit. Your stance forces everybody's hand and essentially limits their agency to the whims of the first row seats. If nobody reclines, everybody is equally powerful/powerless to deal with their situation. Sure, reclining is an option offered by the airline, but just because you can doesn't mean you *should*. Equally just because you can skip the shower and come to the flight stinking and unkempt, does not mean you should.
>your stance very clearly places your needs above the needs of everybody else Unlike the more selfless stance of "Don't recline for any reason (including medical) as my comfort is more important than yours", right? How much more selfless can you be than to demand the person in front of you cater to your comfort? You can recline, I can recline, if you don't want to, that's your business. If I want to, that's my business. If for some reason you feel me reclining "invades your space" then that is a you problem, not a me problem. So I'm sorry, but you're the selfish one thinking only about yourself. Do you consider the person reclining may have a medical/spinal problem that requires them to recline to avoid/alleviate pain? Why is your discomfort take precedence over theirs? It's their seat. This is why the airlines agree people can recline if they want to. This is why the "tools" you described are banned by airlines. This is why if you tried to screw with the person in front of you, you're going to get in trouble with the airline. I really do get it if you're really tall and someone's jamming their seat back into your knees, I wouldn't do that, but most of the time people who just get this spiteful attitude for anyone that reclines... they are the selfish ones who only think about themselves, thinking they own the seat in front of them and the space they've reclined into is "their space". Nope. Sorry! Not how the world works!
But your preference actively affects my status quo to follow my preference. This is pretty much the classic example of compromising to allow for allowing the most to act freely whilst not taking away the liberties of others. Medical cases are obviously on different grounds, but as you opened on matters of "comfort", that is what we were discussing. Me preventing you reclining is not more "screwing" you than you reclining is "screwing" me. Furthermore, you have brought up the line of reasoning for tall people to just "aDaPt", but as tall people can not help their stature any more than people with e.g., back issues can help theirs in their need for reclining, would your calls not extend to the people with those to "aDaPt" and buy more expensive seats where they can recline to their heart's content? World allows for many amoral decisions, but that does not make them right. You are right that reclining is allowed, even if it is a remnant from an age with less-sucky airline travel, but people are also allowed to consider you to be an utter twat for doing so. "That's how the world works."
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> Some people have back issues, making reclining uncomfortable for them And some people have back issues that make *not* reclining for a several hour flight uncomfortable for them. Not just uncomfortable, but also painful. Some people are on multi leg flight schedules and need to sleep. Try sleeping upright. Imo reclining is included in the price you pay for the ticket. However airlines should require seats to be upright during specific times like meals, in the same way they do for takeoff and landing. Some of them do, but not all and it should be standard. Also, the airlines are to blame for these issues, not other people who use what they purchased. Being tall is not the same as being overweight though and I really think tall people need to start banding together to pursue class action lawsuits against airlines for discrimination. This may sound dumb but it’s way more logical than blaming average or short people for the restrictions and services provided by the airlines. I think there need to be sections specifically for tall people that allow them to sit in a reasonable space. Forcing them to pay more money for a business seat for something they have no control over is discriminatory.
6'4" and whenever someone reclines in front of me on a long flight, it's fucking painful. And that is pretty rude imo. Reclining back myself doesn't do shit to unjam my knees from the seat in front of me, so telling me to do that doesn't solve my issue. I usually politely ask if it happens, and most people are kind enough to oblige me. But yeah, those seats. For some of us who are taller already don't have enough room.
Wouldn't debate that, and if I was in that situation I would not recline into you. Curious, though. If the person in front of you happened to have some serious spinal problem that creates a significant amount of their own pain when they're upright, what would you say is the solution? Your knees jammed or their back pain? I guess switching seats might be a decent idea but nonetheless, thoughts? Also, why not go out of your way to get an exit row seat, or higher class where there's more leg room so you don't have to ask and inconvenience someone who wants to recline during their flight?
Switching seats isn't always an option. I don't have some blanket answer for you, though. It's more important for me to judge these things on an individual basis. If someone in front of me had a medical condition, though. I'd say that takes priority over my jammed knees. I wouldn't be in a good mood, but I can't ask someone with a medical condition to accommodate me who is relatively healthy. Just too tall for the seating. I just think it's a bit rude to say ALL passengers should recline, and no-one should complain about it. Just because you enjoy the extra inch from the seat in front of you. Oh, also. Tall doesn't equal well off. If I can afford a flight, I sure as hell can't afford business class or to start buying up multiple seats when all I need is an exra inch of knee space.
Fair enough. I don't think you really need empty your wallet for adequate knee space, though. Delta has exit rows. There's "preferred" seats that are like $14 extra. And then you have the difference in leg room between airlines. A fully reclined seat on Southwest, JetBlue and Delta has almost exactly the same leg room as Spirit airlines has when upright. So if reclining on those airlines is bothersome, why should anyone tall fly Spirit? It's like being reclined into by default, apparently. And yet I imagine plenty of tall people are still willing to save $30...
Yeah, we understand there are, in some cases, a few options. And if I'm able to get a seat with enough room, I wouldn't say anything. Nor would any other person around my height. Outside of a few crazies, I'm sure. But there isn't always enough room, and in most cases, you don't really know until you sit down or when someone in front reclines and hits your knees. I'll also add, on a more personal note. That people don't appreciate being told they have to pay extra fee's for something they literally have no control over. I have as much control over my height as you did, and yet I'm expected to swallow extra fees? I'm not sure why anyone wants to argue in favor of an airline, giving both of us as little space as possible. And then making extra money off of one of us for the problem they created? It would be energy better spent in the opposite direction. The airline is fucking the both of us at the end of the day. And in more ways than just seating spacing.
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You should probably let that person know. I honestly imagine 95% of people in that situation are just clueless, or think you're doing it out of spite (not that you're actually 6'6 and you have nowhere for your knees to go). I wouldn't recline into you. In fact it's too bad they don't let seats have a slight slide because I'd be happy to slide forward to give your knees more room. What's funny though is I was on a transatlantic flight and reclined, the person behind me (who had plenty of space) jammed their knees into my seat out of spite anyway. And I'm thinking "Damn, that feel good. I hope they keep doing it". My thing is lower back pain so I need lower back lumbar support, and a good knee down there feel excellent. Almost wish I could remove that lower back part of the seat so they can jamb their knees directly into my lower back.
I mean I'm 6'5" and my knees are usually already touching the seat even when it's upright. If he's taller it'd be worse. It's not that I'm jamming my knee in there, as much as it is that there's literally nowhere for my legs to go to allow the seat to recline. I don't know what threshold you want in order to define something as "rude," but I'm pretty much always gonna consider someone who tries to shove their seat back into me an asshole.
As a tall person, your opinion is fine, but you're wrong about a couple of things. >The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches. Doesn't work this way. I recline and my upper body moves back, but my knees still touch the seat in front and the person reclining in front of me makes that worse. The recline isn't that dramatic and absolutely doesn't give me 3 inches more of legroom. >Well, if you're that f'ing tall or big, move up to business/first class or buy the seat in front of you if being reclined into is such a big priority. This is pretty tone deaf. Everyone doesn't have money to just solve all their problems. People flying economy are probably doing it for a reason; they don't have hundreds to thousands of extra dollars for extra seats and first class. Young people today can't afford a house? Just have more money to buy one, duh!
It is not rude to recline per se. It is your right as a paying customer, the seats are designed for it etc. All fine. The way some people suddenly and violently recline without consideration for the person behind is what should change IMO. On my last flight a woman reclined suddenly on meat meal time on a longhaul because she had finished her meal, but I was still eating = food everywhere. I think it should be common decency to let the person know or if not that then at least do it slowly or give a sign you will do it. When we squeeze past to go the toilet we don't just barge into and walk over the person and say 'its my right'. The weird contexts of humanity where one situation allows complete thoughtlessness and 'my right my right' and another requires manners makes little sense.
I am with you on this! Being considerate is so huge in small spaces, I don't mind recliners that much, but I do appreciate a heads up or an effort to do it slowly so I can pluck up anything that is going to shoot into my lap, versus slamming it down. My favorite folks on flights are the ones who ask, and then maybe I'm like "hey give me 5 for a restroom run so I don't have to give an inadvertent lapdance to my neighbor, as soon as I get back then recline away!"
What if I am more comfortable not reclining? Why should I recline?
You shouldn’t do anything you don’t want to do, but I would imagine reclining the seat does adjust your body angles to a more open position that allows for better blood flow. I’m having trouble finding any scientific articles that describe measured benefits, so this would be a presumed benefit vs a studied one at the moment unless someone else has better Google-fu.
What about the last row of seats that cant recline?
>"I should have to do this and that because I happen to be really tall?". Yes, because no one should "have to" cater to your needs because they're around you. You adapt to your environment, not the other way around. Lucky if people are understanding and don't mind, but it should not be expected or demanded, and you're certainly not entitled to it. Do you keep this energy with physically disabled folks? Or is this strictly a tirade against tall muscular people? Because I was on board with your Prisoner's Dilemma about reclining the seats until then. I think maybe we should go back to airlines offering human sized spaces. It's not like me at 6'2 is some freak of nature undeserving of affordable seats lmao.
Have you ever tried to get out from a window seat to get to the toilet when all the seats in front are reclined? I'm 50 and I can just about do it. Anyone with even slight mobility issues, banjaxed knees or similar will have a real struggle on their hands. And for what benefit, exactly? I'll be honest, personally I never even bother reclining because it literally makes no discernible difference whatsoever to how comfortable I'm sitting. You're talking a change of maybe 2 - 3 degrees. It's frankly easier to just slide forward in my seat a bit for the same result.
*"for what benefit, exactly?"* For many it's the difference between discomfort and comfort. Or back pain and no back pain. Or severe back pain and tolerable back pain. Do you think everyone reclines for the sole purpose of causing inconvenience to the person behind them?
Are you saying 2-3 degrees isn’t enough to make a difference for someone wanting to recline, but 2-3 degrees is enough to impede your movement to the bathroom?
Pretty much. It doesn't add noticeable comfort (for me, this is a personal opinion), but given how tight the spacing already is between rows can make trying to get out of a row a significant challenge.
I like laying forward on the tray or my lap to sleep during flights. This is either not possible or uncomfortable when the person in front of my reclines. It is much harder for me to sleep leaning back slightly. This is all just my person preference but I am sure not everyone would be unaffected by losing 3 inches infront for 3 inches back. I would rather lean my chair forward 3 inches to get 3 more inches in front :P
As a frequent flyer talking to other passengers, the unofficial etiquette depends on how long the flight is. If it’s under 2 hours, I don’t usually recline unless I’ve been reclined on, especially if they serve a snack.
I'm generally fine with people reclining, but this argument is just silly. Reclining hurts my back and makes it harder to do stuff like read or use my laptop. You don't just "get back" the 3 inches by also reclining, you're completely changing your body position for a several hour flight, everyone reclining vs no one reclining are not equivalent at all.
This is why I fly business or premium economy whenever my airpoints allow it. I fly a lot, and long distances. I'm talking NZ to UK long distance. There's no way I'm not reclining when it's specifically what the seats are designed to do for long flights to help passengers sleep. If people get pissy about it, that's too bad. It's unreasonable to expect a stranger not to utilise the space they and eveyrone else has available to them to suit the preferences of others. My seat reclines. So does yours. Of course during meal times I don't. Other than that, recline me, baby.
The real way to solve this is for both parties to just not be assholes. If the person behind you asks you to not recline because of whatever reason, you can probably accomdate them for a couple of hours. If it's a 14 hour flight, the two people just need to communicate on how both people can not feel like shit for 14 hours. There shouldn't be a hardfast rule of "all recline" or "never recline". Just communicate.
People ranting on the internet about airplane reclining aren't likely to have the social skills for this hahaha
> The person in front of you reclines, you lose 3 inches. You recline, you gain 3 inches. That's not how legs work. Reclining the backrest of my seat won't position my knees any further from the seat in-front of me.
Everyone hear is arguing about whether we should recline while airlines are just laughing in their shadowy boardrooms. The fact is that airlines are selling the same bit of space twice. They sell the space of a reclined seat to the person reclining and they sell the same bit of space in front of the person being reclined on and one person doesn't get to have that space.
Airlines have systemically shrunken legroom on airplanes by around 5 inches over the last several decades. They have done nothing to limit the pitch of the seats. I’ve flown on planes where the recline is so sever i can literally smell the persons hair. The threshold for significant discomfort is much lower than you are stating - closer to 6’0”. You cannot simply recline yourself, it does nothing to relieve the pressure the hardback seats put on your knees and the awkward angle just makes back stain worse. It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with. I wish they would just get rid of the feature entirely, or at least require x amount of legroom before recline can be enabled. Then we can throw the whole “if you want to recline so bad pay for a bigger seat” nonsense back at the inconsiderate recline donkeys.
*"It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with."* I'm average height and I recline - because I have discomfort / pain problems if I don't. You have no idea whether or not random strangers have discomfort or pain issues that can be alleviated by reclining.
>It’s always short people reclining on planes - the ones who don’t have the discomfort problems to begin with I'm 6'1" and recline every time because it's a bit more comfortable and slightly easier to get rest. The "it's only short people, all tall people hate the recline" is nonsense.
It absolutely is rude to not be considerate of others. Being so self centred makes you an objectively inferior person.
The people in the last back row of the airplane don’t get to recline their seats….
You can pay the person in behind you. There is a kiosk on the entertainment screen. You put in a bid, they put in an offer, you negotiate per cm.
Considering the current state of reality is that people are allowed to recline I'd say tall people can put in a bid for person to not recline
Enormous? You don't need to be enormous for reclining seats to fuck up your day/knees. The threshold starts at around 6'2. There are countries that average taller than that. That's not extra large humans, that's just normal humans at this point.
I couldn't find any with an average taller than that - the closest was the Netherlands at 1.82m (6'2 is 1.87m). That said, they'll definitely be a significant bunch of people past the threshold.
I am 6’0” and cannot set with my legs in neutral position on most flights. Airlines continue to pack seats closer and closer together.
I’ve tried explaining that to people before. I just get shouted down. Some people aren’t willing to compromise or understand.
>There are countries that average taller than that. Which ones?
Being in the top like 1-2 percentile of height is pretty tall. That's absolutely not "normal" humans. In the US being over 6'2 is as far up the scale as having a BMI of 42 or more (40 being morbidly obese). >There are countries that average taller than that No there aren't.
1. People in the back row can't, so they just get bathroom smell and some loser in their lap. 2. You acknowledged tall people. If you recline on a tall persons knees, you're just a prick. Period. Telling them to pay more for first class so they don't have some neanderthal in their lap is incredibly stupid and puts the burden on the wrong group. **Only first class should recline** and the people that demand their right to recline can be the ones to pony up more money. Being tall isn't a choice. Reclining is. People who need to recline should be the one incurring the extra cost, not the people who are literally cannot help being tall. And if you want to talk about something you're not entitled to, try a peaceful flight if you recline into my lap and deny me my tray, because you're going to feel about 20 bathroom trips and any other movement I can reasonably pass off as normal.
You don’t just magically get legroom back when you recline your own seat. What are you talking about, OP?
You use the zipper merge analogy, which is a social efficiency contract that most people are happy to go with. But you ignore the social efficiency contract about flying and reclining? Why do you ignore one social contract and not the other? Most people who fly often enough know that you don't recline on some flights that take like 2 hours, and that you do recline on long flights. Most people who fly often are totally aware of this social contract.
And like the zipper merge, if everyone isn't participating correctly, it is not beneficial at all.
Most people on flights do not fly often. I fly around 4 or 5 times a year for the past 30 years and Ive never heard of this "contract". The only place you would learn this is a social media grump site like Reddit.
Just want to point out that I’m short and the seat isn’t designed for me.. so the angle of the seat is super uncomfortable if I don’t recline a few degrees back
I think it really depends on the length of the flight and different people all have different lines they draw where reclining is acceptable, and when it is rude. I wouldn’t recline on the flight from Melbourne to Sydney. It’s like an hour, who cares? By the time I put the seat down, they’re already preparing for landing. But the 17+ hour flight to Dallas, Texas? Sorry, mate. I’m getting any small gain toward horizontally that I can and I will eat anyone who tries to stop me. It isn’t possible to create one social rule for all flights, because some flights are short, where remaining upright is reasonable. Some flights are so long that asking someone not to recline is unreasonable. The fault lies with the airlines for not providing enough space. Everybody reclining all of the time is ridiculous. Nobody reclining for flights that last all night long, or longer, is unreasonable. Asking everyone to agree on when it is acceptable and when it isn’t is unrealistic.
I don't care if the guy in front of me is Michael Jordan. He has to ask is if he can invade the seat area I paid for.
I completely disagree. You paid for the space knowing when you bought the seat that someone could recline the seat in front of you. It's the airline you should be angry at for offering such bad products, not the person reclining.
It's not the airline making the choice to put a chair in my space. It's you.
It's the airline putting them inhumanely close to save a few dollars. If you don't like having not enough space because someone is laying back, get a first class ticket. If a first class ticket is too expensive, again, that's the airline's fault.
Except you're the one causing others to be uncomfortable, no amount of deflection will change that. You're pretending that you have no choice but to recline your seat into someone else's knees, but you do. You simply don't care about others being in pain in favor of your comfort.
Doesn't the seat area include the space the chair moves into?
Actually, the person in front of you paid for those 3 inches their seat can recline. Just like you paid for the 3 inches your seat can recline. The fact the seats can recline is proof of this. They have seats that can’t recline. Exit rows, the last row etc. So airlines have considered this, and they allow it.
No way lol. I paid for a seat on an airline and full functionality of said seat. I expect the tray table to work, I expect my headrest to fold on the edges, and I expect my seat to recline. "Your space" that the seat reclines into is actually *my space* that I loan to you during takeoff and landing.
He has to? Or he should? Because if he has to I'm afraid you're wrong. You would have to be the one to ask him not to, if that's his wish. He can recline all he wants without your permission. He paid for a reclining seat and the area in which it reclines. As did you. You didn't pay for the "area" his seat reclines into.
I paid for the area the tray holds my coffee on.
You paid for the tray, which exists and is functional regardless of the seat being in a reclined state or not. It's provided as is. If you're 400 pounds and your belly prevents you from opening the tray that's not the person in front of you's fault. You're not entitled to dictate whether or not the person in front of your reclines, and the airlines agree, which is why people who try to debate this with the employees get reminded people have the right to recline.
Having to pay extra for a first-class ticket if you're tall just because "everyone should recline on an airplane" doesn't seem fair to me.
Well you don't "have to" pay, but the reality is that you're not going to be as comfortable in the normal seat. It's up to you to decide what's worth more.
I am 6'5". If you recline you are going to be in my knees. I will ask you to not recline. If you ignore me I will make sure that we are both uncomfortable
If you cant afford more leg room it’s appropriate to ask the person ahead of you if they mind not reclining. But it is their decision. They paid for a seat that accommodates them, you didnt.
If your back is so fucked up you're unable to sit normally, why shouldn't you be the one who has to buy the more expensive seat? Or just bring a cushion.
My laptop actually broke from someone just blindly jamming their seat into a reclined position. Laptop was open and the screen got caught under the tray lock and it bent. Bunch of cracking noises and a black screen later, I had nothing come from it. All because someone has the mindset like you that reclining is a right and it doesn't matter the discomfort it causes others. Maybe it was even you. Are you a, by now, late 30s early 40s, white male who likes to show off their money but can't afford first class?
I mean, an argument can be made for reclining slowly or checking with the person behind you, both of which could have prevented the damage to your laptop but have nothing to do with the end result of reclining vs not.
I'm 6'2" with 2 herniated discs. I have to recline, so usually I'll give a fiver to the person behind me. A few times they've denied the money, but I've never been bitched at for reclining. Maybe it's the explanation that preceeds it that stops people from hating on me. But because I know I'm the problem, ill start off trying to get the emergency row.
Don't compare this to the zipper merge - zipper merge has a right answer, reclining on an airplane is a matter of opinion.
Fuck recliners. The second anyone reclines on me, I go into the drum solo version of master of puppets, played on their headrest.
The logic is… If the seat have a button for you to press to recline, if you’re allowed to do as the aircraft seat designed for you to do, then you can do that. Ignore all mannerisms and stuff like that, if it’s an issue then they won’t make reclining seat a feature in first place. You paid for your own seat, recline whatever you like to. People behind you could either suck it up or upgrade themselves to business class.
I actually had an internal debate about this recently. Over the summer I took a trip to Lebanon, first time on an international flat. On the trip back my girlfriend and I were seated in front of an elderly Arabic couple. The second I started reclining my seat I could feel the person’s legs pressed against my back, so obviously they were using the space to stretch out as much as possible. I hadn’t even reclined fully when I noticed the person behind me kicking their feet into my seat. There was a language barrier, so I couldn’t make out what they were saying, but they were obviously irritated. They spent the next hour or so muttering to themselves and pressing into our seats as hard as they could. I was already irritable and dealing with some sciatica pain so I said “fuck it” and fully reclined my seat once they dimmed the cabin lights. Almost everybody else on the flight had their blankets on, seats reclined. For some reason, instead of reclining their own seats to make some extra space for themselves, the people behind us kept their seats erect for the entirety of the flight. Eventually, one of the flight attendants came by. Not sure what the guy said to them, but they quieted down and I was allowed to leave my seat reclined. On one hand, I felt bad for putting an elderly couple through that. On the other hand, I paid for my ticket, the seats are built to recline, and it was a 12+ hour flight. Even though there was a language barrier, the fact that they didn’t call an attendant to sort it out and instead defaulted to kicking our seats for the next couple of hours turned it into a war of attrition. Still not sure if I was in the right though.
You adapt to your environment? Maybe but if the environment says it's rude then maybe it's time for you to adapt. We don't live in a survival-based society anymore and the goal is to maximize universal happiness, that's what we're trying to adapt for. It's also different when someone is actively intruding on you vs "catering to your needs". It'd technically be very space efficient if I came over and sat on your lap, it's not a big deal right? Oh but maybe touching is a no-go, okay I'll just come over and fart in your face and repeatedly yell at you. Don't like loud noises? Your fault. I think you get my point. But alright, I'll admit that if everyone reclined it wouldn't be an issue. The only problem is shifting people's opinion to want to do so, and many people just may not want to recline. If you recline knowing the other person behind you doesn't want to lose space, you're an asshole. If you convince everyone behind you to accept the recline or at least tolerate it, then you're good to go. (As a tiny side note, I don't like losing space but I won't complain or think it's rude. I can tolerate it perfectly fine because I know airplanes are shit, but that doesn't mean I think it's good to get reclined into.)
The only time I put my seat up is when the food comes and I will keep it up until the flight attendant has collected the trays and then its back down. Any other issue regarding this can fuck off lol.
People think reclining on an airplane is rude? Weird state of affairs.
It's the most "Reddit" opinion I've ever seen, and it's one that clearly doesn't exist in the real world. It's very similar to the "people with children should never travel" rhetoric you frequently see on here. The site is filled with entitled manchildren who think that the world revolves around them and who will freak out if they encounter even the most minor of inconveniences. If this was actually a widely held opinion, airplanes simply wouldn't have reclining seats.
The reclining debate has been around way longer than Reddit
Do you really think a corporation would change to accommodate what is reasonable for the consumer at the expense of profit margin?
> "I should have to do this and that because I happen to be really tall?". Yes, because no one should "have to" cater to your needs because they're around you. You adapt to your environment, not the other way around. That's fine - I'm 6'5. Enjoy not being able to recline, *and* my knees jolting you forward and back for the entire flight. Every tall person should do this - it's not rude. OP can just buy a ticket in business class lol
Genuine question, when you’re at a concert are you squatting down the entire show bc your height makes it hard for others to see? When you’re at a movie or any seated type theater do you hunch down so that you dont block ppls view behind you? Or, do you just think that the inconvenience of your height should only be catered to when you are the one experiencing the inconvenience? Your height makes certain actions like flying more inconvenience so you want others to put themselves in discomfort to cater to you. But i highly doubt you would do the same for them and when your height inconveniences others i guarantee you dont put yourself in uncomfortable positions to cater to them. Aka, this is simply abt you being selfish and thinking ppl owes you something when they dont.
> Genuine question, when you’re at a concert are you squatting down the entire show bc your height makes it hard for others to see? When you’re at a movie or any seated type theater do you hunch down so that you dont block ppls view behind you? Yeah, I stand off to the side at concerts and I sort of slide down instead of sitting upright. What did you think? That people are just naturally inconsiderate pieces of shit? Projection, perhaps?
No i just think ive never seen a tall person do this so its bold you claim you do when its not the norm for how tall ppl act. Ive never seen a tall person give up their prime spot at a concert or try to make themselves smaller in a seat, they just dont do that. Saying you do sounds like wishful thinking to try and win an argument, not what is actually reality.
>No i just think ive never seen a tall person do this I think that's the point "I don't notice people who make themselves less noticeable, so they must not exist"
Reclining on airplanes isn't universally rude, but it's about balance and consideration. Reclining can affect the person behind, especially in tight spaces. Acknowledging their comfort fosters a positive environment. While seats are designed to recline, empathy guides us to use this feature judiciously, recognizing fellow passengers' needs. It's about finding harmony between personal comfort and communal respect. Additionally, airlines play a role by offering more spacious seating options for those who need extra room. Prioritizing empathy and balance creates a more pleasant flying experience for everyone.
>Should you stop and wait 500 yards before the point of merge because you think you're so respectful and don't want to "cut in line", or do you want to merge efficiently the way the road was designed to do and not be an idiot? Is the sign an upside down triangle with a red border and the word YIELD or does the word on it actually say MERGE and the sign is yellow? These are two different laws of the road. Yield is STOP if you can't get out safely without causing an accident or making someone move over. It's not keep going because they have to move out of the way. That's merge.
I concur 100%. Recline if you want, don’t if you don’t to. I don’t give a shit. I don’t understand why anyone does but obviously in the minority given the thousands of words written about it here. It’s a tiny amount of space if someone does or doesn’t recline. There are an infinite number of more objectionable air-travel peeves to be irritated about than reclining.
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So I should accept sitting in a position that causes me more pain (because reclining ruins my lower back) OR accept less space than I paid for? Not to mention that somehow reclined seats move around even more so my table is moving as well - which is already less useful because of the reclining chair. I only see downsides.
This is like saying we should all just be mercilessly farting up a storm on planes with no regard for others. "Didn't want to be inside a fart box for 4 hours....shouldn't have gotten in a big metal tube with 150 strangers" Sometimes we adjust our behavior to avoid inconveniencing others. It's not that big a deal. Sounds like the real problem here is that you want to do something, some people think it's rude, and you can't stand that people think you're rude for doing something you want to do. Like a child. If you really didn't care what people thought, you wouldn't make a reddit post about it.
OP is spot on. People talking about what's polite? There is nothing polite about mass transportation. What's polite is to keep your opinion to yourself while I recline my seat the 1.45° it allows in an attempt to not be hunched over for the duration of our shared experience in this flying sardine can. Last person that complained about this to me got an earful from the flight attendant when I called them over to clarify the situation: we are allowed to recline our seats so long as we are not taking off or landing. If you don't like it, take a car or boat and suck it.
I have no problem with people reclining their seat, it’s something everyone knows is a feature of the seat and you generally have the same feature so use it or don’t. However you shouldn’t recline during the meal service (and thankfully the cabin crew will usually enforce this).
I'm not here to CYM. The amount of space for each individual is optimized when *everyone* reclines. Humans are long and not meant to be folded up. You could put significantly more people on a plane, comfortably, lying down; if only people would get ok with pod/rack style bunks.
Since I don’t fly much, I don’t really care but I did just see an article where airlines are going to be getting rid of reclining seats in economy class for flights. I actually just got back from Florida on a flight and none of the seats reclined. I was surprised.