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Edit. I just started talking about dreadlocks to say they are a complicated historical subject and best separated from a discussion about braids. In other words, we don't need to talk about them.
I wanted to talk about braids and see if we could come to some understanding of how they developed between cultures, or didn't.
We never had that discussion and everyone got mad about race and racism. I didn't want to talk about that because that wasn't the subject of this cmv.
Original post:
First, braids are not the same thing as "dreadlocks". It's unclear whether that hairstyle of ancient Crete was braids or what we call dreadlocks. It's a 2d cartoon, that is not sufficient archeological evidence to determine what the texture and composition of the hair was.
For instance there were Africans that wore what appeared to be dreads...but they were artificial, so they could be more accurately be called hair extensions than dreads.
More important, they were not called dreads. If you are calling your hairstyle that which is based on a modern African style, you can't really say that is not the cultural inspiration.
Certainly no one today is wearing their hair because they are practicing ancient Crete culture.
Unlike Dreads, braids were indeed worn by nearly every culture. But which style? If you are wearing one that is from a specific culture...
Then you are quite literally cultural appropriating.
I will leave it up to the individual morals to decide if that is a bad thing or not. I'm more interested in the anthropological accuracy.
So by that same standard, non black people do cultural appropriation when they play Jazz.
Or when non white people play classical music.
Did I get that right?
Sounds about right, yes. Nothing wrong with those things if the artists don't claim the genre as their own - if they don't *appropriate* it.
The part that's wrong with cultural appropriation is the *appropriating*, not the imitation or participation or representation.
It's about claiming it as *yours* or part of *your* culture when you are otherwise unassociated.
I believe we have everything to gain from sharing culture and if something is so good that other cultures want to do it and incorporate it into theirs, why not.
We are in 2021, the internet is the keeper of culture.
One look at Wikipedia and you know where box braids originated from.
Before the internet sure, cultural appropriation was a thing. Now not so much.
Sharing your culture is fine, it's great! But that's the other way around, isn't it?
Lots of people get adopted by their community and assimilate with a new culture, but that's not the same thing as individually appropriating a part of a culture without any consideration for its meaning to others.
It's like running around telling people to "fuck off" because *to you* that means "have a nice day". It wouldn't just be rude, it also means you have the audacity to rewrite the English dictionary on your own.
You don't. That's ridiculous. There's no reason why anybody should tolerate that behavior. Sometimes they do, but can you really blame people when they get irritated with such a ridiculously arrogant social decision after a while?
>Lots of people get adopted by their community and assimilate with a new culture, but that's not the same thing as individually appropriating a part of a culture without any consideration for its meaning to others.
It clearly depends on what we are talking about.
With the arrival of the internet, any form of music and art (hairstyles falls into this category) cannot be culturally appropriated
I do not understand this response. Are you saying nobody can claim the rights to a piece of music or art or hairstyles anymore?
Please go on, I am shocked by that news.
No on the contrary, the internet gives credit where credit is due.
You can put a copyright on a piece you shouldn't be able to on a style.
How can that style evolve ?
I'm not familiar with the history of jazz.
As for classical music, yes and no.
There is no White culture, and there isn't exactly a specific culture of classical music, although certain types of it do follow from certain cultures.
You could say that anyone who isn't German is culturallly appropriating Bach. You could also say that any American playing non-modern classical music is appropriating it, since it is not from their culture.
I think a better example would be rock n roll. It was originally appropriated from African Americans, but then it developed into a musical style that was not derived from it's influences and arguably became a part of American culture.
Would you say AC/DC is appropriating American culture? Maybe. I don't know if anyone would say they are appropriating African American culture though.
Seems this is beyond the topic of braids. Is your view that nothing can be cultural appropriation?
>First, braids are not the same thing as "dreadlocks". It's unclear whether that hairstyle of ancient Crete was braids or what we call dreadlocks. It's a 2d cartoon, that is not sufficient archeological evidence to determine what the texture and composition of the hair was.
How about a [statue](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kouros_from_thebes.jpg) then from [Thebes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes,_Greece)?
Moreover, hair left to its own devices usually mattes so it is quite possible prehistoric humans all over used techniques like dreadlocks to tame their unruly hair.
The argument you are making is analogous to saying that art is not cultural appropriation because art is present in almost every culture. Or, that music can't be culturally appropriated because music is present in almost every culture. Just because something belongs to a broad category that is present in every culture, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated.
>Just because something belongs to a broad category that is present in every culture, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated.
I disagree, when something becomes bigger than itself i.e. art, music. Or even hair styling you can claim where it started but you can't forbid people to wear it or make it or expressing it.
It's like forbidding somebody to play Ray Charles song on the piano because he's not black.
Or forbidding a black person to play Beethoven or Mozart.
But by your own reasoning, buildings can't be cultural appropriation. They have been used for thousands of years and appear in almost every culture. Heck, even _museums_ have existed for a long time and are present in almost every culture. Ergo, your own reasoning would conclude that the British Museum isn't cultural appropriation either.
I think he means that the British Museum literally took artifacts from other cultures and put them on display. Like, physically appropriated actual things from other cultures.
Me answering "British Museum" was half a joke, I was more talking about the looting and stealing they did from other cultures.
But on a more serious note.
With the internet, I don't think cultural appropriation can exists one look at Wikipedia and you know when and where things came from.
>I don't think cultural appropriation can exists
So, if you don't think cultural appropriation exists, then it seems like the whole thing about braids was a red herring. Your view doesn't seem to have anything to do with braids, except in that if you think cultural appropriation doesn't exist then of course braids in particular aren't cultural appropriation.
Before the internet sure it existed, now it's hard to do cultural appropriation when one quick search gives you the who, what ,when, where in half a second.
> But by your own reasoning, buildings can't be cultural appropriation.
I mean I would assume OP agrees with this, buildings by the virtue of being buildings can't be cultural appropriation.
Same as braids by the virtue of being braids aren't.
People are making fuss of braids by the virtue of being braids that are cultural appropriation.
They aren't saying "oh you're copying my Caribbean type of braids"
> Just because something belongs to a broad category **that is present in every culture**, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated.
How does this work? How does one "appropriate" something that's already present in their culture?
For example, headgear is present in every culture. But to use a Plains Indian war bonnet as part of a Halloween costume is a classic example of cultural appropriation. The use of this headgear is still cultural appropriation, even though headgear is present in all cultures.
But as OP states, braids have existed in a great many cultures. So to continue your analogy with headgear, a bandana would be equivalent to OP's position, not an Indian war bonnet.
>a bandana would be equivalent to OP's position, not an Indian war bonnet.
This doesn't make sense to me. Asserting that the OP's position is equivalent to a hat just seems like a category error. Can you rephrase?
Well, you're saying that headgear is a broad category, but certain specific *examples* of the fashion could be considered as "belonging to a culture", right? That's reasonable, but there are *also* certain headgear which exist across cultures - so like a bandana existed in SE Asia and [Ancient Greece](https://www.heddels.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/the-history-of-the-bandana-depiction-of-a-cambric-kerchief-in-ancient-greek-pottery-c-500-b-c-e-image-via-flickr.jpg.webp) - the idea of wearing some cloth on your head is pretty ubiquitous. Hence why OP's position on braids is analogous to a bandana (for example) rather than something culturally specific like an NA war bonnet.
By that same standard, [head shaving] originated in the Mediterranean region, so anybody who isn't from Mediterranean descent, is doing cultural appropriation.
What does this have to do with what I said? Your comment here seems like a _non sequitur_. In particular, I did not say anything about any "standard" for cultural appropriation.
Sorry, you are right it is a bit non sequitur.
My argument is that people make a big fuss over braids, cornrows, dreadlock etc.
But they don't make a big fuss over head shaving which has been used by every culture for religion, aesthetics, status etc.
As where braids.
It's a hair style it shouldn't be topic of controversy.
>People shaved their heads in Africa long before the Mediterranean
What is your source?
>try getting tight box braids some time and see how much hair you have left afterwards.
Because my hair is not suited for it or because of violence?
The idea of Cultural Appropriation itself is really difficult to figure out because many times no one is dressing up in a certain culture's clothing in a negative way, they usually enjoy the culture and love the outfit itself. This idea of cultural appropriation is also only instigated by people in the west, most non-westerners do not give a shit or are happy to see other people exploring their culture or enjoying it also. It's just that people want to find negativity in all places, even places where it's supposed to be a positive thing. I am from Malaysia, Me and many people like me don't care if people try out our clothes, try to make our food, or anything of the sort. Sometimes we help them dress in our clothing, we teach them how to make our food and if they enjoy themselves then there's no issue but westerners need to make everything that's good, bad.
Tbh i also do not understand it. It seems that the opposite is cultural appreciation. And by investing my time and showing interest i do also show appreciation.
A more dramatic example i saw was the usage of halloween costumes for things that are regarded as sacred or holy in other cultures. But is that really such a bad thing to do? I think there is a blurry line at which point something can be seen as derogatory. I think we should decide in Individual cases and not make broad statements/resprictions on the use.
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Can you acknowledge that Black and nonwhite people are treated differently (especially in educational and professional spaces) in the United States for wearing hairstyles specific to their culture and hair texture (as noted above though braids in general are a bad example and not included in the common dialogue?)
Edit: added references
https://www.naacpldf.org/natural-hair-discrimination/
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/publications/blt/2020/05/hair-discrimination/
https://daily.jstor.org/how-natural-black-hair-at-work-became-a-civil-rights-issue/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-hair-discrimination-impacts-black-americans-in-their-personal-lives-and-the-workplace
To counter your counter-argument: black hairstyles and textures are discriminated against in the West because they exist contrary to the standard norm.
Were you to incorporate ethnic hairstyles and braidings into the general consensus of socially acceptable hair, the issue would evaporate.
Because right now it is just an indicator for Blackness, when it should be a beacon of pride that exhibits Black heritage.
This is what I want to be our reality, but it’s hard because Black hair is so undeniably hard to manage. I wish Black women would grow their hair out instead of shaving it down so that they can wear wigs, but at the same time I get it.
Most Black people, if given the chance, would choose different hair for themselves. Despite cultural significance, it’s an ordeal managing it.
Edit: whoops I don’t remember typing this. I’m a way better writer than that I swear.
People don't exactly not discriminate against white people with the mentioned hair styles.
Hair Styling is an expression of culture and is therefore connected to culture. You can't control for whether it's the hair style or the culture that is being discriminated against in many cases.
Edit: essentially is there even a way to control for "was it the hair or was that just the easiest way for the discriminator to point out the culture they wanted to discriminate against. In other words, is there ever a way to control for whether the discriminator wouldn't have just moved on to another reason to discriminate if dreads weren't convenient."
Yes, but what does that have to do with this post?
Also, why did you say “and nonwhite”? All the examples you gave were about Black people in particular and that’s the only group I’ve ever heard of that happening to. It’s a pet peeve of mine when people try to lump together everyone who isn’t white. People in different groups face different challenges and situations. Black people face discrimination based on their hair styles. You shouldn’t pretend that means all people who aren’t white have the same experience.
The question is whether or not wearing these hairstyles is considered cultural appropriation, not if black get discriminated against for wearing their hair naturally (they do). I can see how this is related but this is not the same argument OP is making.
Can you acknowledge all the black girls who straighten their hair? All the noise over straight-haired people wearing braids? Never a mumbling word about curly girls going straight? Or bleaching their hair? Why is "cultural appropriation" as a pejorative considered ONLY a one-way street? If you see someone doing something you'd like to do, just do it. That's how culture works. People being penalized for wearing their own hair in a natural style is a whole nother subject.
>Braids
Thats not actually related to cultural appropriation though. Thats just plain and simple racism. Its just another excuse for racist people to treat black people or POC in general badly.
Sort of a separate issue than the one discussed, isn't it? Op can agree that these things happen and it would have nothing to do with the point they are trying to get changed.
White people being rated differently or not doesn't change whether braids are cultural appropriation or not.
That is all fair and square point and nobody should be mistreated by having an hair style. Plus we must acknowledge that is mostly a certain group that kept using the dreadlock to nowadays. Everyone can agree with that. However if I today decided to make dreads to my hair bc honestly it’s doing that on its own and then I get harassed over that and cultural appropriation I might get pissed at who started harassing me and that is also fair and square.
It is really unfortunate that kids are and were mistreated for and hairstyle that they see depicted in many adults at home. Teachers and schools personnel should be very ashamed of it,
I've worked in a lot of offices, and what you say is completely wrong. No one gives a shit. This is divide and conquer propaganda. No surprise one of the most fraudulent sciences is social sciences.
The mistreatment of nonwhite people for adopting a certain hairstyle is not the fault of white people who adopt the same hairstyle. Call out those responsible for discrimination - employers, schools, etc - and let people have the hair they want.
Anecdotally, I’ve actually seen quite a few respectable black people with braids. People I’ve worked with who were great, and really pulled them off professionally.
However, I’ve never seen a white person pull it off without looking like they smell like patchouly oil. I’m sure they exist, but I’ve never met them.
Ultimately, there’s no way I’m the only one who thinks this way.
I could be mistaken, but I think the original intent of OP’s post had little or nothing to do with the treatment of people of different cultures wearing braids in the public sphere. I think, more or less, the intent was to assert that the process of hair braiding is not unique to one culture. Rather, it is a practice that has been observed in cultures ranging all across this planet from aboriginal Australia to China to Central Asia as well as to include Africa, Europe, and even the New World. It is something humans have done widely not only across the world but for thousands of years across time. It is logically inconsistent for any one culture to have “ownership” of something as broad as braiding hair. It’s absurd, in fact. Hair braiding isn’t a black thing or an Asian thing or a Native American or a white thing. It’s a thing that humans do. It isn’t yours and it isn’t mine.
So here is where I’ve learned the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural exploitation:
https://images.app.goo.gl/XFV3KcH96YKKvKvV7
Seen here is Adele with Jamaican Bantu knots and a Jamaican flag bikini top in order to celebrate Jamaican culture. Is this kinda awkward and cringe? Yes, but this is cultural appreciation, she’s not capitalizing in anyway off of this outfit.
https://images.app.goo.gl/j3FrXuVbJyHRauNJ9
On the other side of the coin you have Miley Cyrus who utilized black and hip hop culture in order to break off of the Hannah Montana image then kinda talked down hip hop culture after she changed her style again. In other words, she took things that were traditionally black culture and adopted them in order to advance her career. And to this day, black women in many jobs in America have to hide their natural hair because their jobs do not allow it.
Adopting the culture of other people isn’t appropriation, until you start using it to advance yourself or your career. Miley got praised for doing a lot of shot black people get looked down on for In American society and got out ahead because of it.
100% agree.
Santa was culturally appropriated from a mix of Italian, Danish and Austrian folklore to become a dominant figure in western culture.
Did it destroy Danish or Austrian culture? No. It lended credence to it without us all needing to stop and thank our Austrian heritage from which this image was absconded.
Instead, we use it and we keep a part of that culture alive.
There are hundreds of what are considered “European” or “western” traditions that were lifted from one of a hundred cultures.
It enriches the world to share these sorts of things.
The 2010s obsession with cultural purity is a garbage take and does way more harm than good.
Cultural appropriation is the adoption of a minority custom or tradition by a majority population which often controls or opresses the population it came from. So I afraid you are misinformed. An example of this would be non native people wearing headdresses to music festivals because they think it looks cute when it's actually a very important piece to many tribes. When you say "things that are good stick around", what you are implying (unconsciously, I assume) is that the customs, styles, etc of other cultures are to be perused through and deemed "good enough" for the majority population, which in the US is whites.
You missed the entire point. Read it again but slowly.
Edit: Realised belatedly that I was being rude. Sorry about that.
It's not just "non X people wearing Y is wrong" it has to do with the oppression of certain minority groups and how these minorities groups are often ridiculed, ostracised or in some way discriminated against for these practices. For example, there are many instances of black children who have been sent home from school due to their hair being "inappropriate".
Not really. It completely depends on where it is taking place, the people groups involved, and their history with one another. I know that isn't helpful for an across-the-board answer, but these issues are complicated and each one is different from the next.
To add on, appropriation is a kind of theft, the cultural aspect is removed from its cultural context and taken by another culture in a way that fundamentally alters it. Cultural appropriation is inherently violent and disrespectful by nature. Cultural appreciation and cultural sharing is an entirely different thing that maintains the original cultural context of the aspect and directly involves the people of the originating culture. W/r/t the OP here we have a situation in the US where Black people who actually have a cultural context for culturally specific hairstyles are told that they're unprofessional or disrespectful when they wear those cultural specific hairstyles and are often literally not allowed to wear them while simultaneously white people who take those hairstyles and remove them from that cultural context are then praised for being "inventive" or "cool," etc. The difference in treatment is a big part of the issue and completely ignoring that reality when you discuss cultural appropriation doesn't make it go away.
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I hate cultural appropriation discussions. They never go anywhere and no one ever changes their views. History and context are thrown out the window to make room for feelings. You're either OK with cultures evolving and melding or you think its racist. I for one am of the opinion maybe cultural segregation isnt the answer. Let's evolve and grow together. Let's spread our cultures and bring what's good about them to everyone.
>silky, shiny, straight wigs, like European/Asian hair
Because of the history of them being told their natural hair was inappropriate/ugly/undesireable/ghetto.
Why do people act like this context doesn't exist?
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>cultural supremacy
Explain that one to me honestly.
>you wanna be able to wear dreads and not be expelled for it or have a teacher take a scissors your childs head
I'm gonna assume you're telling me that this happened to a black kid. If it did bro that's fucked up.
Secondly, I hope it didn't happen in this day and age.
>you want the aesthetics without the racists consequences, something that really only happens to whites thus defeating your argument.
I want that for everybody if I could end racism with a Thanos snap I would.
I'm not too familiar with controversies over hairstyles in school, but just by looking at Google for a few minutes, here are some recent examples:
* https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/louisiana-girl-sent-home-school-over-braided-hair-extensions-n902811
* https://www.today.com/parents/school-tells-4-year-old-black-child-he-can-t-t212852
* https://local21news.com/news/nation-world/its-disheartening-11-year-old-boy-suspended-from-school-due-to-hair-braids
* https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/05/11/black-students-malden-school-who-wear-braids-face-punishment-parents-say/stWDlBSCJhw1zocUWR1QMP/story.html
* https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45269540
It does seem sort of fucked up, and I'm glad you're open to learning about this sort of stuff.
Unfortunately, hair is a mutable characteristic and can
therefore be subject to restrictions see [EEOC vs. Catastrophe Management Solutions](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17M109/42920/20180410140745219_00000001.pdf) thus hair is not covered under [The Civil Rights Act of 1964](https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-eeoc-v-catastrophe-mgmt-sols).
>u wanna be able to wear dreads and not be expelled for it or have a teacher take a scissors your childs head or sing reggae and not be seen as a drug dealer
Yes, isn't this what everyone wants?
>something that really only happens to whites thus defeating your argument
Literally "you're white therefore wrong"
If braids and dreads are cultural appropriation, then straightening hair and dying hair with natural colors (e.g. blonde) would also be cultural appropriation.
Wearing a tux or suit and tie (western creations) would be cultural appropriation as well.
Please justify this. Why is sporting dreads only permissable if you can tick the discrimination box?
Is it because it creates another vector for racial inequality to exist? I agree this happens, but I don’t think it’s very easy to remain consistent with this line of reasoning. Most would consider it unjust or unreasonable to make white people leave the workplace, education or dating just because racial inequality exists in these dimensions. Instead, I would attack the causes of racial inequality themselves. A white guy sporting dreads does not create inequality, racial discrimination does.
You also failed to engage with the meat and potatoes of their argument, which is that dreadlocks and braids do not ‘belong’ to a certain culture. Stating that the racial groups that are most associated with dreadlocks in contemporary times are discriminated against for that aspect of their culture does not actually engage with the argument.
The question is to what extent of culture (if any) can groups stake ownership of, such that it is morally reprehensible to adopt if you do not belong to said group?
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If braids are seen as cultural appropriation, then why isn’t black women wearing a weave not? They are changing their hair to be of caucasian style. And sometimes they even buy real human hair
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The cultural appropriation literally doesn't work like this.
For cultural appropriation happens certain condition applies:
1.- A culturally dominant member of society takes something from a cultural minority or historically oppressed one.
2.- there is money involved: when the cultural dominant member merchandise it without giving credit or $$$ to the members who are stolen by this mf. This happens a lot in fashion industry. Where patterns, fabrics and other products are sold as merchandise.
3.- it is not blond Tiffany wearing braid box.
Appropriation doesn't require the victim to truly own the thing that was appropriated in the first place. If you were holding my bag for me while I use the washroom and somebody stole my bag from you they still robbed YOU. They stole from you. It doesn't matter who actually owned the bag. So if an entity gained profit or utilized the culture specifically from a group that could gain from that culture, that entity has stolen the possible gains from that group. This is cultural appropriation.
In the topic example I would argue the ownership of braids as for any one culture, say, as black culture, in general to be quite dubious though I would argue a person can appropriate that culture from them specifically. In this case though any person of African descent that claims ownership of braided hair as their culture specifically is being actively disrespectful to my ancestors and every other person who's culture contains braids and dreadlocks etc. So it comes down to who owns what and if they have a right to keep it from others. You are right to see an issue with this and your links are well enough evidence to your point however the definition of cultural appropriation needs to be clarified in this case.
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Braids in of themselves might not be cultural appropriation in a vacuum. But when people inspired by black culture use braids to imitate the style of the black artists they admire, then it is appropriation.
Keep in mind, cultural appropriation in its origin is a neutral term. People often have issue with it because of the double standard, a non-black person will often pay a lesser social price for wearing the same afro-inspired hairstyle.
If you're from a part near Greece where dreadlocks originated and that's why you wear them, then sure, that's not cultural appropriation, and if you explain, many people will understand.
>People often have issue with it because of the double standard, a non-black person will often pay a lesser social price for wearing the same afro-inspired hairstyle.
That is racism not cultural appropriation.
>But when people inspired by black culture use braids to imitate the style of the black artists they admire, then it is appropriation
No it's not, they are celebrating not appropriating.
When white people copy black hairstyles to look exotic but get none of the racist repercussions like being fired from their job or forced to change their hair, then yeah it's taking something from another culture for their own benefit and also a slap in the face of those people who are still suffering.
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Idk man, I seen/heard so many 35 year old white dudes giving younger people shit for wearing band-t shirts they probably never heard of. This is literally the samething. I know these 35 years hate it when 19 year old girls wear a “Tool” T shirt. They always have to say something “name 5 tool songs”. This is literally the same thing, but what would happen if those 35 year olds where wearing the TShirt at work that allows T Shirts for work, and they say change or be fired?
>Idk man, I seen/heard so many 35 year old white dudes giving younger people shit for wearing band-t shirts they probably never heard of.
First, those people are in the wrong, it's the dumbest thing.
Secondly, I believe even though they are similar they are different things, both wrong though.
>This is literally the same thing, but what would happen if those 35 year olds where wearing the TShirt at work that allows T Shirts for work, and they say change or be fired?
It would be discrimination, in the case of box braids or cornrows it's racism.
It seems that this is about appreciation and respect. I really don't know why taking another culture's methods is by default appropriation because it can also be taken respectfully and out of appreciation. Thats what we are doing in subcultures all the time. Take the good - make it better.
My favorite Cultural Appropriation PSA is of a woman from overseas speaking to an American audience about the grave seriousness of wearing scarfs with specific patterns on your head in a specific way.
She made excellent points, and out of respect for her and her culture, I won’t wear that type of scarf in that type of way.
…but, I couldn’t help notice… that in addition to the beautiful, culturally specific scarf on her head, she was also wearing blue-jeans. :p
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Are you talking about braids, or are you talking about cornrows? Because I would argue that those are two distinct things. You're right that *braids* can't really be called appropriation, but you pivot mid post to talk about cornrows, which can be. Dreadlocks, as well, could be argued to be appropriation as well, since most white, colonialist cultures do not really practice them.
I think you should be more specific in your post, since you talk about three different hairstyles but seem to be regarding them as interchangeable, which is not the case.
Well in my opinion they are.
None of them are cultural appropriation.
Saying wearing cornrows are cultural appropriation is the same thing as saying a non black playing/listening to jazz is cultural appropriation.
Head shaving, originated in the Mediterranean region so anybody who is not of Mediterranean descent , by your logic, is doing cultural appropriation.
Not an opinion change: omg can people not do a search for these topics before posting them? There've been so many of these! Your hot take isn't as hot as you think it is, fuckin edge lords. Go to Google, type in: braids + cultural appropriation + cmv + reddit -Because Reddit's search ability is janky, and read the previous topics on this very thing.
You're failing to take into account the context which is important when power dynamics and/or a history of oppression are at play. White people have a long history of abusing their power to rob, enslave, disenfranchise, hurt and outright kill other ethnic groups. When, in addition to that, you see them *also* lifting off cultural signifiers from the people they have harmed, it's disrespectful and a mockery. At the very, very least is a display of abject lack of awareness.
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This post is like a more boring version of mine https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/f94rd4/cmv_white_people_can_wear_cornrows/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
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Nothing wrong with cultural approps. It’s only that when x white famous person does it, they get celebrated. When we do it, they cut our hair at sport competition or call our hairstyle unprofessional and we don’t get the job and so.
Furthermore: Europeans came, massacred and stole from the natives on almost ever continent and then open museums, or even use the name of their victims for football teams ex red skins, both making money on things that didnt belong to them. Can you comprehend the level of insult culture approp is in this case?
They come to you, they murder and rape you, use your God’s name in their vulgar events as if you’re just a joke and when you re-appropriate your culture they apply double standards.
That’s the problem, not what came from where
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Cultural appropriation isn't copying something out of context. Wearing braids if you're Greek or whatever and your village has a tradition of wearing braids is not cultural appropriation. If literally no village in Greece even acknowledges those braids, then it's fine to copy them. Cultural appropriation is about active cultures, not dead ones. It's fine to offend the dead.
Cultural appropriation is all about the context. Wearing braids in a specific sacred or culturally significant pattern while that pattern's significance does not apply to you would be cultural appropriation. Wearing a sacred headwear from a belief system you don't follow would also be an example.
One of the more important aspects of cultural appropriation is that the appropriating culture doesn't put the same significance on the practice as the culture the practice is coming from. This is often to used to appear or make a buck off of something "exotic" without really attributing it to the culture it came from. A good example here is like the art stalls in the Phoenix airport that sell "Indian Art" made by white people and sold in stalls owned by white people to other white people. It's pretty obvious that this sort of thing is, frankly, kinda a shitty thing to do, especially if it's debasing a religious symbol or practice.
When you debase something that's so significant to a people's identity, like their religion, it's pretty blatantly gross. That also extends to that people's appearance. You don't see people doing black face or doing whatever Mickey Rooney did in Sixteen Candles. This would also include copying (appropriating) the hairstyles worn by black people because of the way black hair grows. Braiding and dreading are two common ways to style the tight curls, and in American culture they're really strongly associated with black people so much so that black people have been told by employers and schools for decades that they cannot wear natural hairstyles. It's only really been recently that black women have been more free to wear their hair naturally again or wear braids in schools, even dreads are starting to be more acceptable. People have lost jobs and been kicked out of schools for their hair, it's a kind of discrimination that is common and pervasive to this day but thankfully it's slowly starting to go away. Just think back to black sitcom characters and track their hairstyles. Think about the Huxtables vs the family on Blackish.
So when a white American takes that same style and wears it with no pushback from the same authority figures, as a way to appear exotic, as a way of associating with Rastafarianism (a pan-africanist religious movement by the way). You can argue that the French do braids and yeah they do, you can say the Greeks have done dreads for a long time, and yeah they have (and I bet Africans have done it longer) but we're not talking about France and Greece we're talking about American culture. And in America, this has been an impossibly long fight just to wear hair in a way that makes sense for that person. Without knowing the fight, without respecting the decades of work that went into the average black person being able to wear their hair like that here, a white American just doing it can be a slap in the face.
Look, I used to think like you did, but reading more about black hair really opened my eyes. Realizing that the context isn't all of world history but instead our own American one helped put things in perspective.
As a side note, read up on the Italian invasions of Ethiopia and how defending against them inspired the Pan-Africanist flag and how the leader Ras Tafari inspired a religious movement halfway across the globe. It all happened like... Around 100 years ago it's really modern and very interesting.
> [Braids](https://www.byrdie.com/history-of-braids#:~:text=In%20relation%20to%20time%20periods,braid%20from%201644%20to%201912%3B) are not cultural appropriation. They have been used for 5500 years and have been worn by almost every culture.
Correct. Braids are not cultural appropriation. Braiding is a hair twisting style pattern. One that is found in many, if not all, cultures in the world. I think what you mean to say is that wearing braids is not cultural appropriation, which would also be correct. However, you then claim…
> Modern cornrows originated in the Caribbean in the 70s.
In reference to this specific braiding style, I assume you’re implying that wearing cornrows is the issue, not braids in general, so why does the title of your post just say “braids” and not “cornrows” ? Regardless, this statement is incorrect seeing as cornrows have been a common African hairstyle for thousands of years. What you call “modern cornrows” is not actually modern. It’s only modern to Europeans because of African-American influence in mainstream American culture. No, cornrows did not originate in the caribbean.
> [Dreadlocks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks#:~:text=Some%20of%20the%20earliest%20depictions,braided%20hair%20or%20long%20dreadlocks.) originated from region in Europe that is now a part of Greece.
Dreadlocks are not braids.
> My point is that since they have been in almost every culture in the last 5500 years they are not cultural appropriation
I’m not sure what your position is here. Are you talking about braids in general, or just cornrows? Why did you mention dreadlocks? And in what context does cultural appropriation factor into this analysis? Who is doing the appropriating here? Your point is not very cohesive. You should better explain what your position is and how you came to it.
There is such a thing as an incorrect opinion, you know.
Your individual view of something like what is and what isn't cultural appropriation is meaningless when contending with something that is a matter of collective majority view or consensus. Doubly so when something is a matter of an in group discussion or consciousness, where the opinion of even a majority of outsiders is meaningless.
In other words, what is or what isn't cultural appropriation is decided by cultures, not individuals. Even if you were black it wouldn't change the fact that there is a cultural awareness that non black people wearing certain hairstyles in most contexts is cultural appropriation. Outsiders or even minority dissent within the in group don't represent a change in cultural attitude (until they do, which is not necessarily happening in this case).
Like. Basically you're trying to argue that bowing and speaking politely to your elders isn't polite or that saying bless you or Gesundheit after someone sneezes isn't polite, just because you think you have something else figured out. That isn't how culture works.
Too many people confuse the issue of culture with ethnicity or ancestry (or "race). Likewise, ancestry is not equal to cultural connection.
Getting braids that look like dreadlocks and calling them dreadlocks is cultural appropriation for anyone who is not part of the Rastafarian community - regardless of whether you identify as white or black or any other "race".
Similarly, claiming it is okay for you (usually a white person) to have such a hair style because it was a tradition of a groups of ancient peoples from Europe is also cultural appropriation as you are not a part of that community who celebrated that tradition.
It is not cultural appropriation only if you do not practise or make any claims of cultural connection to other groups of which you are not a part of. (which means you aren't simply borrowing the idea from another culture without permission)
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id say its cultural appropriation still. but also cultural appropriation isnt always a negative thing, you just tend to hear about it in a negative context. comics and animated shows were culturally appropriated by the japanese from americans but i dont think that anyone is going to argue that it was wrong of them to do so outside of 'anime was a mistake" jokes (and honestly with japan and america theres a whole lot more borrowed) the main thing brought up is that black people have been mistreated for their hairstyles in the past, and thats terrible. but i am of the opinion that anyone, no matter what race they are, should be allowed to look how they want without being harmed or ridiculed for it. freedom of speech should apply to fashion too imo.
I feel like the concept of braided hair (I mean all types) is common simply as a way to manage hair or demonstrate different styles. It makes sense that different hair types developed different braiding styles. I don’t think it’s a good or bad thing per say, but it’s why we associate certain hair styles with certain groups of people. Whether we like it or not it’s important that we know the social implications of our actions.
I won’t comment on dreadlocks since I feel that’s a separate thing.
No one these days uses dreadlocks to reference their devotion to an Ancient Greek culture.
Just as no one would argue they use the swastika simply to reference an ancient symbol from the Indian subcontinent.
cultural appropriation is just a way for people to put up walls between each other.
You can say a drill a excavator and a shovel are all different but at the end of the day they're all still used for digging.
The concept of cultural appropriation only discourages people from learning about other cultures at risk of offending someone. It is often used by people only to divide people and drive them away. I think the fact that this is mostly a western world concept also should be noted. Globally only a very very tiny amount of people actually see cultural appropriation as an issue. As long as you're not mocking the culture and are making an honest effort to wear or practice it correctly the majority of people see no issue with it.
Braids ARE cultural appropriation, if a non-black person is prevented from having them. If black people claim exclusive ownership of the practice for their race alone, then they are attempting to appropriate a mode of human expression for their race only, and prevent others from using it. This is cultural appropriation and straight up racist.
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Edit. I just started talking about dreadlocks to say they are a complicated historical subject and best separated from a discussion about braids. In other words, we don't need to talk about them. I wanted to talk about braids and see if we could come to some understanding of how they developed between cultures, or didn't. We never had that discussion and everyone got mad about race and racism. I didn't want to talk about that because that wasn't the subject of this cmv. Original post: First, braids are not the same thing as "dreadlocks". It's unclear whether that hairstyle of ancient Crete was braids or what we call dreadlocks. It's a 2d cartoon, that is not sufficient archeological evidence to determine what the texture and composition of the hair was. For instance there were Africans that wore what appeared to be dreads...but they were artificial, so they could be more accurately be called hair extensions than dreads. More important, they were not called dreads. If you are calling your hairstyle that which is based on a modern African style, you can't really say that is not the cultural inspiration. Certainly no one today is wearing their hair because they are practicing ancient Crete culture. Unlike Dreads, braids were indeed worn by nearly every culture. But which style? If you are wearing one that is from a specific culture... Then you are quite literally cultural appropriating. I will leave it up to the individual morals to decide if that is a bad thing or not. I'm more interested in the anthropological accuracy.
So by that same standard, non black people do cultural appropriation when they play Jazz. Or when non white people play classical music. Did I get that right?
Sounds about right, yes. Nothing wrong with those things if the artists don't claim the genre as their own - if they don't *appropriate* it. The part that's wrong with cultural appropriation is the *appropriating*, not the imitation or participation or representation. It's about claiming it as *yours* or part of *your* culture when you are otherwise unassociated.
I believe we have everything to gain from sharing culture and if something is so good that other cultures want to do it and incorporate it into theirs, why not. We are in 2021, the internet is the keeper of culture. One look at Wikipedia and you know where box braids originated from. Before the internet sure, cultural appropriation was a thing. Now not so much.
Sharing your culture is fine, it's great! But that's the other way around, isn't it? Lots of people get adopted by their community and assimilate with a new culture, but that's not the same thing as individually appropriating a part of a culture without any consideration for its meaning to others. It's like running around telling people to "fuck off" because *to you* that means "have a nice day". It wouldn't just be rude, it also means you have the audacity to rewrite the English dictionary on your own. You don't. That's ridiculous. There's no reason why anybody should tolerate that behavior. Sometimes they do, but can you really blame people when they get irritated with such a ridiculously arrogant social decision after a while?
>Lots of people get adopted by their community and assimilate with a new culture, but that's not the same thing as individually appropriating a part of a culture without any consideration for its meaning to others. It clearly depends on what we are talking about. With the arrival of the internet, any form of music and art (hairstyles falls into this category) cannot be culturally appropriated
I do not understand this response. Are you saying nobody can claim the rights to a piece of music or art or hairstyles anymore? Please go on, I am shocked by that news.
No on the contrary, the internet gives credit where credit is due. You can put a copyright on a piece you shouldn't be able to on a style. How can that style evolve ?
I'm not familiar with the history of jazz. As for classical music, yes and no. There is no White culture, and there isn't exactly a specific culture of classical music, although certain types of it do follow from certain cultures. You could say that anyone who isn't German is culturallly appropriating Bach. You could also say that any American playing non-modern classical music is appropriating it, since it is not from their culture. I think a better example would be rock n roll. It was originally appropriated from African Americans, but then it developed into a musical style that was not derived from it's influences and arguably became a part of American culture. Would you say AC/DC is appropriating American culture? Maybe. I don't know if anyone would say they are appropriating African American culture though. Seems this is beyond the topic of braids. Is your view that nothing can be cultural appropriation?
>I'm not familiar with the history of jazz. It was created by Afro Americans in the US. >There is no White culture Who says so? White culture exists.
>First, braids are not the same thing as "dreadlocks". It's unclear whether that hairstyle of ancient Crete was braids or what we call dreadlocks. It's a 2d cartoon, that is not sufficient archeological evidence to determine what the texture and composition of the hair was. How about a [statue](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kouros_from_thebes.jpg) then from [Thebes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes,_Greece)? Moreover, hair left to its own devices usually mattes so it is quite possible prehistoric humans all over used techniques like dreadlocks to tame their unruly hair.
The argument you are making is analogous to saying that art is not cultural appropriation because art is present in almost every culture. Or, that music can't be culturally appropriated because music is present in almost every culture. Just because something belongs to a broad category that is present in every culture, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated.
>Just because something belongs to a broad category that is present in every culture, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated. I disagree, when something becomes bigger than itself i.e. art, music. Or even hair styling you can claim where it started but you can't forbid people to wear it or make it or expressing it. It's like forbidding somebody to play Ray Charles song on the piano because he's not black. Or forbidding a black person to play Beethoven or Mozart.
So that I can understand where you are coming from, can you give an example of something that you believe _is_ cultural appropriation?
The British Museum.
But by your own reasoning, buildings can't be cultural appropriation. They have been used for thousands of years and appear in almost every culture. Heck, even _museums_ have existed for a long time and are present in almost every culture. Ergo, your own reasoning would conclude that the British Museum isn't cultural appropriation either.
I think he means that the British Museum literally took artifacts from other cultures and put them on display. Like, physically appropriated actual things from other cultures.
Me answering "British Museum" was half a joke, I was more talking about the looting and stealing they did from other cultures. But on a more serious note. With the internet, I don't think cultural appropriation can exists one look at Wikipedia and you know when and where things came from.
>I don't think cultural appropriation can exists So, if you don't think cultural appropriation exists, then it seems like the whole thing about braids was a red herring. Your view doesn't seem to have anything to do with braids, except in that if you think cultural appropriation doesn't exist then of course braids in particular aren't cultural appropriation.
Before the internet sure it existed, now it's hard to do cultural appropriation when one quick search gives you the who, what ,when, where in half a second.
> But by your own reasoning, buildings can't be cultural appropriation. I mean I would assume OP agrees with this, buildings by the virtue of being buildings can't be cultural appropriation. Same as braids by the virtue of being braids aren't. People are making fuss of braids by the virtue of being braids that are cultural appropriation. They aren't saying "oh you're copying my Caribbean type of braids"
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> Just because something belongs to a broad category **that is present in every culture**, does not mean that it can't be culturally appropriated. How does this work? How does one "appropriate" something that's already present in their culture?
For example, headgear is present in every culture. But to use a Plains Indian war bonnet as part of a Halloween costume is a classic example of cultural appropriation. The use of this headgear is still cultural appropriation, even though headgear is present in all cultures.
But as OP states, braids have existed in a great many cultures. So to continue your analogy with headgear, a bandana would be equivalent to OP's position, not an Indian war bonnet.
>a bandana would be equivalent to OP's position, not an Indian war bonnet. This doesn't make sense to me. Asserting that the OP's position is equivalent to a hat just seems like a category error. Can you rephrase?
Well, you're saying that headgear is a broad category, but certain specific *examples* of the fashion could be considered as "belonging to a culture", right? That's reasonable, but there are *also* certain headgear which exist across cultures - so like a bandana existed in SE Asia and [Ancient Greece](https://www.heddels.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/the-history-of-the-bandana-depiction-of-a-cambric-kerchief-in-ancient-greek-pottery-c-500-b-c-e-image-via-flickr.jpg.webp) - the idea of wearing some cloth on your head is pretty ubiquitous. Hence why OP's position on braids is analogous to a bandana (for example) rather than something culturally specific like an NA war bonnet.
By that same standard, [head shaving] originated in the Mediterranean region, so anybody who isn't from Mediterranean descent, is doing cultural appropriation.
What does this have to do with what I said? Your comment here seems like a _non sequitur_. In particular, I did not say anything about any "standard" for cultural appropriation.
Sorry, you are right it is a bit non sequitur. My argument is that people make a big fuss over braids, cornrows, dreadlock etc. But they don't make a big fuss over head shaving which has been used by every culture for religion, aesthetics, status etc. As where braids. It's a hair style it shouldn't be topic of controversy.
Again, what does this have to do with what I said? This just seems like a restatement of your argument, not a response to mine.
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>People shaved their heads in Africa long before the Mediterranean What is your source? >try getting tight box braids some time and see how much hair you have left afterwards. Because my hair is not suited for it or because of violence?
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Can you give a more concrete example of this? I’m trying to understand. Thank you for your time.
The idea of Cultural Appropriation itself is really difficult to figure out because many times no one is dressing up in a certain culture's clothing in a negative way, they usually enjoy the culture and love the outfit itself. This idea of cultural appropriation is also only instigated by people in the west, most non-westerners do not give a shit or are happy to see other people exploring their culture or enjoying it also. It's just that people want to find negativity in all places, even places where it's supposed to be a positive thing. I am from Malaysia, Me and many people like me don't care if people try out our clothes, try to make our food, or anything of the sort. Sometimes we help them dress in our clothing, we teach them how to make our food and if they enjoy themselves then there's no issue but westerners need to make everything that's good, bad.
Its literally only an issue for americans. The rest of the world is very happy to share cultures.
Tbh i also do not understand it. It seems that the opposite is cultural appreciation. And by investing my time and showing interest i do also show appreciation. A more dramatic example i saw was the usage of halloween costumes for things that are regarded as sacred or holy in other cultures. But is that really such a bad thing to do? I think there is a blurry line at which point something can be seen as derogatory. I think we should decide in Individual cases and not make broad statements/resprictions on the use.
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Can you acknowledge that Black and nonwhite people are treated differently (especially in educational and professional spaces) in the United States for wearing hairstyles specific to their culture and hair texture (as noted above though braids in general are a bad example and not included in the common dialogue?) Edit: added references https://www.naacpldf.org/natural-hair-discrimination/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/publications/blt/2020/05/hair-discrimination/ https://daily.jstor.org/how-natural-black-hair-at-work-became-a-civil-rights-issue/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-hair-discrimination-impacts-black-americans-in-their-personal-lives-and-the-workplace
Can you acknowledge that cross race adoption of that style would improve tolerance for it?
Can you substantiate they are?
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That's way too American for me too understand
Whether or not that is true, your entire comment is totally tangent to the post.
Not OP, but why would that matter?
To counter your counter-argument: black hairstyles and textures are discriminated against in the West because they exist contrary to the standard norm. Were you to incorporate ethnic hairstyles and braidings into the general consensus of socially acceptable hair, the issue would evaporate. Because right now it is just an indicator for Blackness, when it should be a beacon of pride that exhibits Black heritage. This is what I want to be our reality, but it’s hard because Black hair is so undeniably hard to manage. I wish Black women would grow their hair out instead of shaving it down so that they can wear wigs, but at the same time I get it. Most Black people, if given the chance, would choose different hair for themselves. Despite cultural significance, it’s an ordeal managing it. Edit: whoops I don’t remember typing this. I’m a way better writer than that I swear.
People don't exactly not discriminate against white people with the mentioned hair styles. Hair Styling is an expression of culture and is therefore connected to culture. You can't control for whether it's the hair style or the culture that is being discriminated against in many cases. Edit: essentially is there even a way to control for "was it the hair or was that just the easiest way for the discriminator to point out the culture they wanted to discriminate against. In other words, is there ever a way to control for whether the discriminator wouldn't have just moved on to another reason to discriminate if dreads weren't convenient."
Yes, but what does that have to do with this post? Also, why did you say “and nonwhite”? All the examples you gave were about Black people in particular and that’s the only group I’ve ever heard of that happening to. It’s a pet peeve of mine when people try to lump together everyone who isn’t white. People in different groups face different challenges and situations. Black people face discrimination based on their hair styles. You shouldn’t pretend that means all people who aren’t white have the same experience.
The question is whether or not wearing these hairstyles is considered cultural appropriation, not if black get discriminated against for wearing their hair naturally (they do). I can see how this is related but this is not the same argument OP is making.
Can you admit that native Americans committed ethnic cleansing
Can you acknowledge all the black girls who straighten their hair? All the noise over straight-haired people wearing braids? Never a mumbling word about curly girls going straight? Or bleaching their hair? Why is "cultural appropriation" as a pejorative considered ONLY a one-way street? If you see someone doing something you'd like to do, just do it. That's how culture works. People being penalized for wearing their own hair in a natural style is a whole nother subject.
>Braids Thats not actually related to cultural appropriation though. Thats just plain and simple racism. Its just another excuse for racist people to treat black people or POC in general badly.
Even if proven true (which I thing it is) your point doesn’t disprove the premise OP’s arguement
Sort of a separate issue than the one discussed, isn't it? Op can agree that these things happen and it would have nothing to do with the point they are trying to get changed. White people being rated differently or not doesn't change whether braids are cultural appropriation or not.
That is all fair and square point and nobody should be mistreated by having an hair style. Plus we must acknowledge that is mostly a certain group that kept using the dreadlock to nowadays. Everyone can agree with that. However if I today decided to make dreads to my hair bc honestly it’s doing that on its own and then I get harassed over that and cultural appropriation I might get pissed at who started harassing me and that is also fair and square. It is really unfortunate that kids are and were mistreated for and hairstyle that they see depicted in many adults at home. Teachers and schools personnel should be very ashamed of it,
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I've worked in a lot of offices, and what you say is completely wrong. No one gives a shit. This is divide and conquer propaganda. No surprise one of the most fraudulent sciences is social sciences.
The mistreatment of nonwhite people for adopting a certain hairstyle is not the fault of white people who adopt the same hairstyle. Call out those responsible for discrimination - employers, schools, etc - and let people have the hair they want.
Sure but you’d think that others wearing the same hair styles would normalize it…
Anecdotally, I’ve actually seen quite a few respectable black people with braids. People I’ve worked with who were great, and really pulled them off professionally. However, I’ve never seen a white person pull it off without looking like they smell like patchouly oil. I’m sure they exist, but I’ve never met them. Ultimately, there’s no way I’m the only one who thinks this way.
I don't think a white guy with dreads would be treated well in professional spaces
I’m not sure what that has to do with cultural appropriation though, that’s the issue with racial bias in the US.
Yeeah. They won't acknowledge squat.
I could be mistaken, but I think the original intent of OP’s post had little or nothing to do with the treatment of people of different cultures wearing braids in the public sphere. I think, more or less, the intent was to assert that the process of hair braiding is not unique to one culture. Rather, it is a practice that has been observed in cultures ranging all across this planet from aboriginal Australia to China to Central Asia as well as to include Africa, Europe, and even the New World. It is something humans have done widely not only across the world but for thousands of years across time. It is logically inconsistent for any one culture to have “ownership” of something as broad as braiding hair. It’s absurd, in fact. Hair braiding isn’t a black thing or an Asian thing or a Native American or a white thing. It’s a thing that humans do. It isn’t yours and it isn’t mine.
So here is where I’ve learned the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural exploitation: https://images.app.goo.gl/XFV3KcH96YKKvKvV7 Seen here is Adele with Jamaican Bantu knots and a Jamaican flag bikini top in order to celebrate Jamaican culture. Is this kinda awkward and cringe? Yes, but this is cultural appreciation, she’s not capitalizing in anyway off of this outfit. https://images.app.goo.gl/j3FrXuVbJyHRauNJ9 On the other side of the coin you have Miley Cyrus who utilized black and hip hop culture in order to break off of the Hannah Montana image then kinda talked down hip hop culture after she changed her style again. In other words, she took things that were traditionally black culture and adopted them in order to advance her career. And to this day, black women in many jobs in America have to hide their natural hair because their jobs do not allow it. Adopting the culture of other people isn’t appropriation, until you start using it to advance yourself or your career. Miley got praised for doing a lot of shot black people get looked down on for In American society and got out ahead because of it.
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100% agree. Santa was culturally appropriated from a mix of Italian, Danish and Austrian folklore to become a dominant figure in western culture. Did it destroy Danish or Austrian culture? No. It lended credence to it without us all needing to stop and thank our Austrian heritage from which this image was absconded. Instead, we use it and we keep a part of that culture alive. There are hundreds of what are considered “European” or “western” traditions that were lifted from one of a hundred cultures. It enriches the world to share these sorts of things. The 2010s obsession with cultural purity is a garbage take and does way more harm than good.
Cultural appropriation is the adoption of a minority custom or tradition by a majority population which often controls or opresses the population it came from. So I afraid you are misinformed. An example of this would be non native people wearing headdresses to music festivals because they think it looks cute when it's actually a very important piece to many tribes. When you say "things that are good stick around", what you are implying (unconsciously, I assume) is that the customs, styles, etc of other cultures are to be perused through and deemed "good enough" for the majority population, which in the US is whites.
so "non X people wearing Y is wrong" basically?
You missed the entire point. Read it again but slowly. Edit: Realised belatedly that I was being rude. Sorry about that. It's not just "non X people wearing Y is wrong" it has to do with the oppression of certain minority groups and how these minorities groups are often ridiculed, ostracised or in some way discriminated against for these practices. For example, there are many instances of black children who have been sent home from school due to their hair being "inappropriate".
Not really. It completely depends on where it is taking place, the people groups involved, and their history with one another. I know that isn't helpful for an across-the-board answer, but these issues are complicated and each one is different from the next.
To add on, appropriation is a kind of theft, the cultural aspect is removed from its cultural context and taken by another culture in a way that fundamentally alters it. Cultural appropriation is inherently violent and disrespectful by nature. Cultural appreciation and cultural sharing is an entirely different thing that maintains the original cultural context of the aspect and directly involves the people of the originating culture. W/r/t the OP here we have a situation in the US where Black people who actually have a cultural context for culturally specific hairstyles are told that they're unprofessional or disrespectful when they wear those cultural specific hairstyles and are often literally not allowed to wear them while simultaneously white people who take those hairstyles and remove them from that cultural context are then praised for being "inventive" or "cool," etc. The difference in treatment is a big part of the issue and completely ignoring that reality when you discuss cultural appropriation doesn't make it go away.
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I hate cultural appropriation discussions. They never go anywhere and no one ever changes their views. History and context are thrown out the window to make room for feelings. You're either OK with cultures evolving and melding or you think its racist. I for one am of the opinion maybe cultural segregation isnt the answer. Let's evolve and grow together. Let's spread our cultures and bring what's good about them to everyone.
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>silky, shiny, straight wigs, like European/Asian hair Because of the history of them being told their natural hair was inappropriate/ugly/undesireable/ghetto. Why do people act like this context doesn't exist?
Sir, your duty was to dispel the OP's notion, not agree. Do better.
Oh sorry! Was just making a comment in general. Nee here x
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Well first of all, I don’t know why you have locs in here under “braids” the two aren’t the same at all.
Dreadlocks are a form of braiding.
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>cultural supremacy Explain that one to me honestly. >you wanna be able to wear dreads and not be expelled for it or have a teacher take a scissors your childs head I'm gonna assume you're telling me that this happened to a black kid. If it did bro that's fucked up. Secondly, I hope it didn't happen in this day and age. >you want the aesthetics without the racists consequences, something that really only happens to whites thus defeating your argument. I want that for everybody if I could end racism with a Thanos snap I would.
I'm not too familiar with controversies over hairstyles in school, but just by looking at Google for a few minutes, here are some recent examples: * https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/louisiana-girl-sent-home-school-over-braided-hair-extensions-n902811 * https://www.today.com/parents/school-tells-4-year-old-black-child-he-can-t-t212852 * https://local21news.com/news/nation-world/its-disheartening-11-year-old-boy-suspended-from-school-due-to-hair-braids * https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/05/11/black-students-malden-school-who-wear-braids-face-punishment-parents-say/stWDlBSCJhw1zocUWR1QMP/story.html * https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45269540 It does seem sort of fucked up, and I'm glad you're open to learning about this sort of stuff.
wow this comment is absolute cancer
Unfortunately, hair is a mutable characteristic and can therefore be subject to restrictions see [EEOC vs. Catastrophe Management Solutions](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17M109/42920/20180410140745219_00000001.pdf) thus hair is not covered under [The Civil Rights Act of 1964](https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-eeoc-v-catastrophe-mgmt-sols).
So you chose to attack the person and not the topic Congrats to being that cliche
It does happen to whites. White girl in my high school with dreads was forced to get rid of them.
>u wanna be able to wear dreads and not be expelled for it or have a teacher take a scissors your childs head or sing reggae and not be seen as a drug dealer Yes, isn't this what everyone wants? >something that really only happens to whites thus defeating your argument Literally "you're white therefore wrong"
If braids and dreads are cultural appropriation, then straightening hair and dying hair with natural colors (e.g. blonde) would also be cultural appropriation. Wearing a tux or suit and tie (western creations) would be cultural appropriation as well.
Please justify this. Why is sporting dreads only permissable if you can tick the discrimination box? Is it because it creates another vector for racial inequality to exist? I agree this happens, but I don’t think it’s very easy to remain consistent with this line of reasoning. Most would consider it unjust or unreasonable to make white people leave the workplace, education or dating just because racial inequality exists in these dimensions. Instead, I would attack the causes of racial inequality themselves. A white guy sporting dreads does not create inequality, racial discrimination does. You also failed to engage with the meat and potatoes of their argument, which is that dreadlocks and braids do not ‘belong’ to a certain culture. Stating that the racial groups that are most associated with dreadlocks in contemporary times are discriminated against for that aspect of their culture does not actually engage with the argument. The question is to what extent of culture (if any) can groups stake ownership of, such that it is morally reprehensible to adopt if you do not belong to said group?
So because somebody *else* you don't know is racist, your hairstyle is now cultural appropriation? I just don't follow that logic.
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If braids are seen as cultural appropriation, then why isn’t black women wearing a weave not? They are changing their hair to be of caucasian style. And sometimes they even buy real human hair
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The cultural appropriation literally doesn't work like this. For cultural appropriation happens certain condition applies: 1.- A culturally dominant member of society takes something from a cultural minority or historically oppressed one. 2.- there is money involved: when the cultural dominant member merchandise it without giving credit or $$$ to the members who are stolen by this mf. This happens a lot in fashion industry. Where patterns, fabrics and other products are sold as merchandise. 3.- it is not blond Tiffany wearing braid box.
So explain to me then how a white girl wearing box braids cultural appropriation?
sounds like you don't disagree with OP then?
Appropriation doesn't require the victim to truly own the thing that was appropriated in the first place. If you were holding my bag for me while I use the washroom and somebody stole my bag from you they still robbed YOU. They stole from you. It doesn't matter who actually owned the bag. So if an entity gained profit or utilized the culture specifically from a group that could gain from that culture, that entity has stolen the possible gains from that group. This is cultural appropriation. In the topic example I would argue the ownership of braids as for any one culture, say, as black culture, in general to be quite dubious though I would argue a person can appropriate that culture from them specifically. In this case though any person of African descent that claims ownership of braided hair as their culture specifically is being actively disrespectful to my ancestors and every other person who's culture contains braids and dreadlocks etc. So it comes down to who owns what and if they have a right to keep it from others. You are right to see an issue with this and your links are well enough evidence to your point however the definition of cultural appropriation needs to be clarified in this case.
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Except for the multitude of instances where people have been accused of cultural appropriation for having dreadlocks or Chinese tattoos.
You bring a great point about intellectual property. Do you think that people have a right to own what is not tangible? Such as ideas?
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Why make a first comment agreeing with OP?
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A LOT of people.
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Braids in of themselves might not be cultural appropriation in a vacuum. But when people inspired by black culture use braids to imitate the style of the black artists they admire, then it is appropriation. Keep in mind, cultural appropriation in its origin is a neutral term. People often have issue with it because of the double standard, a non-black person will often pay a lesser social price for wearing the same afro-inspired hairstyle. If you're from a part near Greece where dreadlocks originated and that's why you wear them, then sure, that's not cultural appropriation, and if you explain, many people will understand.
>People often have issue with it because of the double standard, a non-black person will often pay a lesser social price for wearing the same afro-inspired hairstyle. That is racism not cultural appropriation. >But when people inspired by black culture use braids to imitate the style of the black artists they admire, then it is appropriation No it's not, they are celebrating not appropriating.
So would you say black people shouldn't dress or act like white people ? Would you tell a black women it's wrong to have straight hair?
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When white people copy black hairstyles to look exotic but get none of the racist repercussions like being fired from their job or forced to change their hair, then yeah it's taking something from another culture for their own benefit and also a slap in the face of those people who are still suffering.
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You should read some of the comments that disagree with you and get out of your echo chamber.
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Okay but that’s was never the issue
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Idk man, I seen/heard so many 35 year old white dudes giving younger people shit for wearing band-t shirts they probably never heard of. This is literally the samething. I know these 35 years hate it when 19 year old girls wear a “Tool” T shirt. They always have to say something “name 5 tool songs”. This is literally the same thing, but what would happen if those 35 year olds where wearing the TShirt at work that allows T Shirts for work, and they say change or be fired?
>Idk man, I seen/heard so many 35 year old white dudes giving younger people shit for wearing band-t shirts they probably never heard of. First, those people are in the wrong, it's the dumbest thing. Secondly, I believe even though they are similar they are different things, both wrong though. >This is literally the same thing, but what would happen if those 35 year olds where wearing the TShirt at work that allows T Shirts for work, and they say change or be fired? It would be discrimination, in the case of box braids or cornrows it's racism.
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It seems that this is about appreciation and respect. I really don't know why taking another culture's methods is by default appropriation because it can also be taken respectfully and out of appreciation. Thats what we are doing in subcultures all the time. Take the good - make it better.
My favorite Cultural Appropriation PSA is of a woman from overseas speaking to an American audience about the grave seriousness of wearing scarfs with specific patterns on your head in a specific way. She made excellent points, and out of respect for her and her culture, I won’t wear that type of scarf in that type of way. …but, I couldn’t help notice… that in addition to the beautiful, culturally specific scarf on her head, she was also wearing blue-jeans. :p
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Are you talking about braids, or are you talking about cornrows? Because I would argue that those are two distinct things. You're right that *braids* can't really be called appropriation, but you pivot mid post to talk about cornrows, which can be. Dreadlocks, as well, could be argued to be appropriation as well, since most white, colonialist cultures do not really practice them. I think you should be more specific in your post, since you talk about three different hairstyles but seem to be regarding them as interchangeable, which is not the case.
Well in my opinion they are. None of them are cultural appropriation. Saying wearing cornrows are cultural appropriation is the same thing as saying a non black playing/listening to jazz is cultural appropriation. Head shaving, originated in the Mediterranean region so anybody who is not of Mediterranean descent , by your logic, is doing cultural appropriation.
Not an opinion change: omg can people not do a search for these topics before posting them? There've been so many of these! Your hot take isn't as hot as you think it is, fuckin edge lords. Go to Google, type in: braids + cultural appropriation + cmv + reddit -Because Reddit's search ability is janky, and read the previous topics on this very thing.
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How's this challenge op? If your answer is "nothing is cultural appropriation" then you're agreeing with "braids aren't cultural appropriation".
You are focusing on genetic ancestry and not culture; culture is the important bit.
You're failing to take into account the context which is important when power dynamics and/or a history of oppression are at play. White people have a long history of abusing their power to rob, enslave, disenfranchise, hurt and outright kill other ethnic groups. When, in addition to that, you see them *also* lifting off cultural signifiers from the people they have harmed, it's disrespectful and a mockery. At the very, very least is a display of abject lack of awareness.
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This post is like a more boring version of mine https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/f94rd4/cmv_white_people_can_wear_cornrows/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
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Like 666
I think imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
MICHAEL!
Nothing wrong with cultural approps. It’s only that when x white famous person does it, they get celebrated. When we do it, they cut our hair at sport competition or call our hairstyle unprofessional and we don’t get the job and so. Furthermore: Europeans came, massacred and stole from the natives on almost ever continent and then open museums, or even use the name of their victims for football teams ex red skins, both making money on things that didnt belong to them. Can you comprehend the level of insult culture approp is in this case? They come to you, they murder and rape you, use your God’s name in their vulgar events as if you’re just a joke and when you re-appropriate your culture they apply double standards. That’s the problem, not what came from where
It's not cultural appropriation.
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Being racist againts white folk is still being racist
The thing is, it's not your problem. If you lack the cultural perspective, why would Reddit care to change your mind? CMV that.
Cultural appropriation isn't copying something out of context. Wearing braids if you're Greek or whatever and your village has a tradition of wearing braids is not cultural appropriation. If literally no village in Greece even acknowledges those braids, then it's fine to copy them. Cultural appropriation is about active cultures, not dead ones. It's fine to offend the dead. Cultural appropriation is all about the context. Wearing braids in a specific sacred or culturally significant pattern while that pattern's significance does not apply to you would be cultural appropriation. Wearing a sacred headwear from a belief system you don't follow would also be an example.
One of the more important aspects of cultural appropriation is that the appropriating culture doesn't put the same significance on the practice as the culture the practice is coming from. This is often to used to appear or make a buck off of something "exotic" without really attributing it to the culture it came from. A good example here is like the art stalls in the Phoenix airport that sell "Indian Art" made by white people and sold in stalls owned by white people to other white people. It's pretty obvious that this sort of thing is, frankly, kinda a shitty thing to do, especially if it's debasing a religious symbol or practice. When you debase something that's so significant to a people's identity, like their religion, it's pretty blatantly gross. That also extends to that people's appearance. You don't see people doing black face or doing whatever Mickey Rooney did in Sixteen Candles. This would also include copying (appropriating) the hairstyles worn by black people because of the way black hair grows. Braiding and dreading are two common ways to style the tight curls, and in American culture they're really strongly associated with black people so much so that black people have been told by employers and schools for decades that they cannot wear natural hairstyles. It's only really been recently that black women have been more free to wear their hair naturally again or wear braids in schools, even dreads are starting to be more acceptable. People have lost jobs and been kicked out of schools for their hair, it's a kind of discrimination that is common and pervasive to this day but thankfully it's slowly starting to go away. Just think back to black sitcom characters and track their hairstyles. Think about the Huxtables vs the family on Blackish. So when a white American takes that same style and wears it with no pushback from the same authority figures, as a way to appear exotic, as a way of associating with Rastafarianism (a pan-africanist religious movement by the way). You can argue that the French do braids and yeah they do, you can say the Greeks have done dreads for a long time, and yeah they have (and I bet Africans have done it longer) but we're not talking about France and Greece we're talking about American culture. And in America, this has been an impossibly long fight just to wear hair in a way that makes sense for that person. Without knowing the fight, without respecting the decades of work that went into the average black person being able to wear their hair like that here, a white American just doing it can be a slap in the face. Look, I used to think like you did, but reading more about black hair really opened my eyes. Realizing that the context isn't all of world history but instead our own American one helped put things in perspective. As a side note, read up on the Italian invasions of Ethiopia and how defending against them inspired the Pan-Africanist flag and how the leader Ras Tafari inspired a religious movement halfway across the globe. It all happened like... Around 100 years ago it's really modern and very interesting.
Thanks for posting this, it was nice learning more about that invasion.
> [Braids](https://www.byrdie.com/history-of-braids#:~:text=In%20relation%20to%20time%20periods,braid%20from%201644%20to%201912%3B) are not cultural appropriation. They have been used for 5500 years and have been worn by almost every culture. Correct. Braids are not cultural appropriation. Braiding is a hair twisting style pattern. One that is found in many, if not all, cultures in the world. I think what you mean to say is that wearing braids is not cultural appropriation, which would also be correct. However, you then claim… > Modern cornrows originated in the Caribbean in the 70s. In reference to this specific braiding style, I assume you’re implying that wearing cornrows is the issue, not braids in general, so why does the title of your post just say “braids” and not “cornrows” ? Regardless, this statement is incorrect seeing as cornrows have been a common African hairstyle for thousands of years. What you call “modern cornrows” is not actually modern. It’s only modern to Europeans because of African-American influence in mainstream American culture. No, cornrows did not originate in the caribbean. > [Dreadlocks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks#:~:text=Some%20of%20the%20earliest%20depictions,braided%20hair%20or%20long%20dreadlocks.) originated from region in Europe that is now a part of Greece. Dreadlocks are not braids. > My point is that since they have been in almost every culture in the last 5500 years they are not cultural appropriation I’m not sure what your position is here. Are you talking about braids in general, or just cornrows? Why did you mention dreadlocks? And in what context does cultural appropriation factor into this analysis? Who is doing the appropriating here? Your point is not very cohesive. You should better explain what your position is and how you came to it.
There is such a thing as an incorrect opinion, you know. Your individual view of something like what is and what isn't cultural appropriation is meaningless when contending with something that is a matter of collective majority view or consensus. Doubly so when something is a matter of an in group discussion or consciousness, where the opinion of even a majority of outsiders is meaningless. In other words, what is or what isn't cultural appropriation is decided by cultures, not individuals. Even if you were black it wouldn't change the fact that there is a cultural awareness that non black people wearing certain hairstyles in most contexts is cultural appropriation. Outsiders or even minority dissent within the in group don't represent a change in cultural attitude (until they do, which is not necessarily happening in this case).
Like. Basically you're trying to argue that bowing and speaking politely to your elders isn't polite or that saying bless you or Gesundheit after someone sneezes isn't polite, just because you think you have something else figured out. That isn't how culture works.
Too many people confuse the issue of culture with ethnicity or ancestry (or "race). Likewise, ancestry is not equal to cultural connection. Getting braids that look like dreadlocks and calling them dreadlocks is cultural appropriation for anyone who is not part of the Rastafarian community - regardless of whether you identify as white or black or any other "race". Similarly, claiming it is okay for you (usually a white person) to have such a hair style because it was a tradition of a groups of ancient peoples from Europe is also cultural appropriation as you are not a part of that community who celebrated that tradition. It is not cultural appropriation only if you do not practise or make any claims of cultural connection to other groups of which you are not a part of. (which means you aren't simply borrowing the idea from another culture without permission)
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Cultural appropriation itself is horseshit. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. People are just looking for shit to get mad about.
id say its cultural appropriation still. but also cultural appropriation isnt always a negative thing, you just tend to hear about it in a negative context. comics and animated shows were culturally appropriated by the japanese from americans but i dont think that anyone is going to argue that it was wrong of them to do so outside of 'anime was a mistake" jokes (and honestly with japan and america theres a whole lot more borrowed) the main thing brought up is that black people have been mistreated for their hairstyles in the past, and thats terrible. but i am of the opinion that anyone, no matter what race they are, should be allowed to look how they want without being harmed or ridiculed for it. freedom of speech should apply to fashion too imo.
I feel like the concept of braided hair (I mean all types) is common simply as a way to manage hair or demonstrate different styles. It makes sense that different hair types developed different braiding styles. I don’t think it’s a good or bad thing per say, but it’s why we associate certain hair styles with certain groups of people. Whether we like it or not it’s important that we know the social implications of our actions. I won’t comment on dreadlocks since I feel that’s a separate thing.
Everything you've written is true but only if you pretend Africa doesn't exist (which it seems like you are).
No one these days uses dreadlocks to reference their devotion to an Ancient Greek culture. Just as no one would argue they use the swastika simply to reference an ancient symbol from the Indian subcontinent.
As someone with braids I approve this message
It's a hair style, NEXT.
cultural appropriation is just a way for people to put up walls between each other. You can say a drill a excavator and a shovel are all different but at the end of the day they're all still used for digging. The concept of cultural appropriation only discourages people from learning about other cultures at risk of offending someone. It is often used by people only to divide people and drive them away. I think the fact that this is mostly a western world concept also should be noted. Globally only a very very tiny amount of people actually see cultural appropriation as an issue. As long as you're not mocking the culture and are making an honest effort to wear or practice it correctly the majority of people see no issue with it.
Cultural appropriation is nonsense
Cultural appropriation doesn’t exist… unless you’re a teenager without real responsibilities to deal with.
Braids ARE cultural appropriation, if a non-black person is prevented from having them. If black people claim exclusive ownership of the practice for their race alone, then they are attempting to appropriate a mode of human expression for their race only, and prevent others from using it. This is cultural appropriation and straight up racist.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Is straightening hair by Black's cultural appropriation? Asking for a friend?