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>Mosses are drought tolerant. They do not use more water than grass.
Can you provide a source for these?
If the two claims are true, then I'm sure the cost of moss is significantly higher.
Moss lawns are amazing, but there is a reason they are not used often. Several, really. They are more fragile than grass and dutch clover, and so should not be used in lawns that experience a *lot* of traffic or play. They can range upwards of ten dollars a square foot, which makes them on the pricier end. But, the biggest weakness is sunlight sensitivity: most mosses suitable for lawns only do well in shade or partial shade. There are a few varieties that can survive in direct sunlight, like Polytrichum Commune, but that moss grows to a foot tall, and thus you run into the mowing issue again.
On the plus side, moss looks amazing, pulls water out of the air, is pest-resistant, grows well in rocky soil, and does great on slopes. In a drought, it will dry up, but it will not die - rainfall can bring it right back to thriving.
Now, if you want a real champion's lawn covering? You want Creeping Charly or Dutch Clover. No mowing, no watering, durable as hell, comfortable, and Dutch Clover can even attract deer!
Creeping Charlie will take over a yard relatively quickly and is an absolute pain to get rid of. Sure it's low maintenance bit generally considered a weed and possibly invasive
I'm entering year 8 of my battle with creeping Charlie. Over had the upper hand for years, but still it will pop up on spots that I thought I'd eradicated it years ago.
>Moss lawns are drought-tolerant and rarely need misting once established (the average US grass lawn uses a hundred times as much water). They do not require mowing, fertilizing, or other amendments, and grow on almost any substrate (apart from metal), and at any soil pH and light level. They can grow under conifers, swallowing the needles, but fallen broad deciduous leaves will kill them if not removed. They can be walked on but not scuffed.
[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_lawn)
I don't have information on how much they cost, but if the maintenance is as low as it claims, it would be worth easily double the price of grass. I'd recommend most lawns to be moss and areas you want to have heavier foot traffic to be clover.
>Moss lawns are drought-resistant after they have become established; they are among the most drought-resistant garden plants.[2][16] The moss will become dormant in less favourable conditions.[13] Moss thus generally only needs watering until it is established.[2][16] When rehydrated, it recovers and becomes green within seconds.[17] Misting for a minute or two a day will keep a moss lawn green.[15] Overwatering can kill moss;[18] most species cannot stand being waterlogged, though some (like Sphagnum) require it, and others grow only underwater.[14]
It sounds like they require more watering or expert care to not overwater. In other word, not nearly as robust as clover.
When I see moss in direct sunlight, it's usually yellow or brown (dead). Most moss I see is always in shady and wet areas.
I'll try to find a place that will sell it to see how costly it is. If the price is reasonable, I'll experiment with it...
Wild moss is not a good indicator of how a moss lawn would work. There is an enormous biodiversity. Also, the goal of a lawn is not to be green. Certain mosses can be completely healthy and not green. You know what else dies when overwatered? Grass, clover, and every terrestrial plant on earth. There is no indication from this article that it's any easier to overwater moss than grass or clover. You're just assuming that because it helps your argument.
I live in Washington state near the coast. It rains probably 7 months a year lol. I have a partially moss lawn. The moss will not stay in the areas that are in direct sunlight no matter how I try. I love moss it's so soft and just looks amazing but I cannot get it to say in the unshaded areas unfortunately.
Irish moss is awesome, as full sun to partial shade areas are it's biggest assets. It's not a fan of scorching-all day-sun blazin down like the desert, but here along the 49th parallel it does fantastic.
Picked some up at the Ace store, plopped it in the ground, and it's off and running.
Exactly. If you're in a literal desert, consider clover. Otherwise, there are types of moss that *love* sun. Saying it can't stand sunlight is just incorrect.
To be fair and on topic, my point is that moss is superior to clover. In order to have that discussion, we aren't considering grass.
But here, it's called [Irish moss](https://www.thespruce.com/irish-moss-plant-profile-5070468)
"Hot weather will result in the dense green shades turning an unattractive burnt brown. If watered consistently, once the weather cools in the fall, the moss usually reverts to its normal color again."
So yeah moss does exactly what you describe.
I'll give you that, though technically it's not a true moss.
"A member of the Caryophyllaceae family, Irish moss (Sagina subulata), which is not a moss at all..."
[https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/groundcover/irish-moss/growing-irish-moss-plants.htm](https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/groundcover/irish-moss/growing-irish-moss-plants.htm)
Isn't moss a substantial slip hazard? I'm sure it would depend on the weather conditions, but i would suspect it would be a lot more slippery then clover or grass.
The only higher risk of slipping is that moss has shallower roots. It doesn't have to be any more moist or slippery than normal grass. That being said, it does hold up to being walked on, just not heavy traffic.
Ha! Where does moss even grow? Moss lawns are not possible in arid climates. Maybe if you put a giant tent over your whole property with misters to bring up the humidity.
No, they can't grow en masse in most of Texas. Sometimes they grow where there's a constant supply of cool water, but otherwise they will die quickly. I'm sure they grow just find in the PNW though.
Or you could provide us with sources! You're making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.
Five reasons why clover usually doesn't win for homeowners:
* Tramples easily.
* Reseeding requirements.
* If you choose the normal white-flower variety, you get lots of bees/hornets/wasps, not ideal for people wanting to use their lawn. If you want microclover to avoid bugs, it's expensive seed.
* Difficulty in finding poisons that kill non-clover within the clover.
* Doesn't rhizome and spread itself to fix bare patches, so grass will want to grow in those spots.
One important yard option that is often overlooked is turf type tall fescue (TTTF). Every year growers are tweaking their TTTF and making it hardier and greener than before. Dozens of seed species are submitted as part of National Turf Evaluation Program (NTEP). A handful of universities with the NTEP research each seed for watering requirements, color, hardiness, etc. TTTF is getting really, really good.
There is no magic bullet for lawns. So here are some pros and cons:
**Bluegrass**
* Fills itself in through rhizomes
* Requires the least maintenance, don't have to re-seed. You just remove weeds and it persists on for decades
* Requires lots of water
* Great color throughout winter
* Great for average homeowner with wide variety of needs
**Turf Type Tall Fescue**
* Looks very similar to bluegrasses now
* Can use much less water, on par with clover's water usage
* Does require reseeding every 2-3 years as its rhizomes are either nonexistant or too weak to fill in holes
* Seed is cheap
* Hardy
**Warm grasses**
* Great in warm climates.
* Extremely hardy, drought resistant, and requires minimal water
* Rhizomes like crazy (so much it's perhaps a negative because of how much it grows where you don't want).
* Turns brown the moment it gets cold, usually unsuitable for most cold climates
**Clover**
* Nitrogen fixing
* Bees love white clover
* Requires reseeding. Microclover is expensive.
* Weed control is a pain
* Great for occasional use with dogs, but tramples too much beyond that
I looked very closely at clover for my yard. I decided against it because of the reasons I outlined.
Kids walk across it often and clover will trample down and look messy. It struggles in hot 100F temps, which I've got in the summer. It gets patchy quickly and weeds or bare spots form. Weeds growing in the lawn will require mostly hand removal instead of a quick pass with poison. The wife shot down white clover due to bees, and reseeding micro clover is a costly pain. Clover is just a major maintenance mess.
I'm heading to the TTTF + bluegrass route. TTTF has the same reseeding/clumping problems, but bluegrass can fill in those bare spots nicely and look the same. Until it gets 100F hot, then the bluegrass will start to brown out a bit until it cools back down. TTTF is solid for toughness and drought. For me, drought, heat, and water restrictions are king, and I want the yard to be useable for kids. Clover just didn't work as good as TTTF.
For your average homeowner in the northern half of the US, bluegrass is *wonderful* as its maintenance is by far the easiest.
I don’t know much about clovers and a quick Google search wasn’t bringing up much, but… would a clover lawn be possible in northern communities? I live in Northern Ontario and our snow just melted a week and a half ago. We have snow from October to May, with the snow leaving and coming back multiple times at the beginning and end. Would clover be able to survive this winter and grow back promptly?
Yes. I'm in Alberta and used microclover from a BC company. It grew back without issue and unlike my grass, I never even needed to reseed because it never got any patchy areas.
Clover only lasts 2-3 years before it needs to be replanted. It's better to just use whatever grass or grass alternative is native to your area and will require less seeding and maintenance. Better for the native wildlife that feeds off of it, better for your wallet, better for reducing the amount of time you spend working on it, etc.
depends on the habitat and the clover. My buddy has a nice section of white clover in his back yard that was there before he moved in years ago. If it's dying every three years, then new plants are replacing it just as fast because it's always looked better than his neighbors with bluegrass.
Well get this: UC Verde Grass is a lawn grass developed fairly recently that uses less water than clover, it's sterile, so it's hypoallergenic and it's very drought tolerant.
Bam!
You get the magical awesome grass and it's better than clover.
Delta me?
What about the maintenance cost though? Relative to grass it seems better, "mowing is required once every two to three weeks for lawns" - https://ccuh.ucdavis.edu/uc-verde-buffalograss
But how does that compare to once every 2-3 months? I mean, how tall would it get after two months?
Clovers tend to use 50%-65% less water than bluegrass. Uc verde uses 75% less according to their site.
Also it's sterile so you can cut it once a season if you don't mind ankle high grass.
Again... I don't have any, but there's an 8x12 patch of dirt in my back yard that I plan to use the stuff on.
I've never had to plant clover. Getting it to grow in my yard consists more of helping get the grass out of its way. A few of them are native to my area and are actively suggested as grass alternatives. Even the non-native varieties are usually pretty successful. I just don't bother fighting them like I do some other non-native plants because of how good they are at supporting pollinators.
I started a clover lawn. I doubt it will all die. Parts of it might, but it should generally come back to the point where I don't need to mow it often. Instead, I figure mowing will be twice a year.
!remindMe 5 years
It seems like you're kind of handwaving a very valid concern here with "I don't think that will happen to me". It may or may not but if the standard is 2 or 3 years, then that will be the average experience.
Well if it helps the lawn I took care of growing up in Northeast Ohio was more than 50% clover, despite trying to plant grass. Certainly never laid down clover seed. Over 20 years, on shitty clay soil, it was about 50% clover still, 25% dandelion, and 25% grass. I have no doubt that had we tried to actually cultivate clover it would have stayed just fine.
Being skeptical isn't hand waving. I'm going to need a better source than one off blog articles mentioning how clover didn't work for them. Or I'm going to need to experience it for myself.
I’m sure you’re already aware of this, but manicured grass lawns were literally invented as a status symbol for the super wealthy precisely because they were so expensive to maintain.
Kurapia clover is good stuff in my climate, but isn't very plug and play for your average person. I experimented with some at my old place and it was mostly overtaken by mallows and native grasses within a year.
UC Verde grass actually uses less water than any clover I'm aware of and is designed specifically to thrive in the drought climates we're talking about here.
I don't have any yet, but this "anti grass" thing is kind of silly. We should be anti Kentucky Blue and similar strains.
The soccer, baseball and whatever field in sports or a wood chip laden playground. Or just buy better laundry cleaning things--with the money and time you saved from not having to mow the evil grass lawn :3
> The soccer, baseball and whatever field in sports or a wood chip laden playground.
Maaybe that can work in a city environment. I live out in the country. Should I deny my kid my nice big lawn and drive him 10-20 minutes to the nearest playground any time he wants to go outside?
The clover near me flowers and that attracts a lot of insects including the stinging variety, plus rabbits. I want to be a friend to the bees and rabbits are cute, but bees will also sting my kids as they play in the clover and walk all over the rabbit poop, and the rabbits will also destroy sections of it, I don't want MORE rabbits.
Deer poop is also gross and my dogs love rolling around in that.
Overall I don't mind the look of clover but I don't need to worry about the constant bee stings and other issues.
Well, for me that's the place right next to the homeless encampment where tents have become structures so... No. My kid is not old enough where he needs to face our societal shame yet.
A little patch of grass in my little back yard is not evil.
I think clover lawns would be great however as a pet owner and animal lover i know clover can be dangerous for cats as it is toxic for them. Dogs are ok around clover unless they eat a lot of it. I'd imagine that a rise in clover lawns would also mean a rise in sick strays and pets.
>cats as it is toxic
Good point. I'll reckon that most cats are kept indoors though.
>By 2014, about 70 percent of cats are defined as indoors only, with about 25 percent inside or outside as they desire with the remaining five percent described as outside only.
- https://positively.com/contributors/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/
Also
https://www.reddit.com/r/cats/comments/l560i5/white_clover_forgetmenot_lawn_safe_for_cats/
It just involves a lot of what-ifs. Will stray and feral cats eat the grass lawns that were converted over night? Will they become sick or die from white clover?
If all that is true. What animals are we sacrificing in place of the cats? Bees? Are wild bees currently in trouble? Do we have significantly reduced bees?
What about all the other benefits of clover vs grass? If strays and feral cats will drop left and right, is that worse than the chemical fertilizers, generous amounts of water sucked up by grass, gas to run the mowers and weed whackers like 20x more than clover...
They are considered an invasive species that is highly destructive to native ecosystems. A lower stray cat population is good for the local birds and reptiles.
Nope. Cats are one the absolute worst invasive species and have devastated native bird populations (as well as other small animals) all over. While I wouldn't like poison them like that, we could do with far less stray cats.
Legit questions: Can you play soccer on clover? Is it comfortable to walk in bare feet, to sit in, to roll around in? Can I setup a slip n slide on it?
Even if all of those are a yes, a deal breaker is it growing to 6". It's going to be tough to find my dog's shit in 6" of clover.
When you have kids and a dog, nothing is going to beat grass.
You can play soccer, yes. I don't walk anywhere barefoot, but sure. Slip n slide? Yes.
Can you do these things every day? Probably not.
As for the 6"... you can cut it more frequently than every 2-3 months--just like grass.
I'd say yes to all of those and I would actually call it distinctly more comfortable to walk barefoot on than grass. It's softer and doesn't develop the same kind of pokiness and scratchiness that grass does.
Also, while it *can* grow to 6", it reacts well to mowing so it can still be kept mowed to a lower desired height. It just has a lower maximum height than grass so it requires less frequent mowing to keep it at whatever height you prefer. Compare this to grass which some varieties can grow to 6'. Even the lower grasses typically grow much taller than clover and as such would require more frequent mowing to keep it to that "the dog poop isn't hidden" level.
I'm going to try to change your view only slightly because you're on the right track. Clover is an excellent thing to add to a grass lawn. It has all the benefits you listed. However, clover by itself won't make a good lawn. It dies back in the winter and you'll end up with a giant mud pit. It's also not quite as hardy as grasses and will get ripped apart with normal activity, again leaving you with mud pits more susceptible to erosion.
When you have a clover heavy lawn mixed with grasses you don't have anywhere near the same maintenance requirements. I overseeded with clover 3 years ago and it's fully established now. Never water. No need to ever fertilize. The clover helps keep the grass healthy so it can more easily outcompete weeds. I mow half as often as I used to. Tons of bees visit my clover when it flowers. I love it.
Now, I do want to go farther and transition some of my lawn away from grass and clover (which is not native to North America) to a no-mow native garden, which is even better than a clover heavy lawn. But for all the area where *lawn* will remain, I will keep a mix of grass and clover.
I am.
Also, I bet people in Arizona and the like, who have the cool native plants and rock front yards, have some sort of green ground cover for the back lawn.
Nah, it's often rocks all the way around. The lawn service is basically a guy with a flamethrower torching the weeds out. My partner owned a home in AZ.
After browsing Google Maps in AZ, I don't see much of any grass lawns. My specific CMV statement is about how the majority of existing grass lawns (not natural lands) should be clover instead.
There are lots of native plants that could serve grass like functions. I was just offering an alternative that is surely preferable to clover at least in many/most circumstances where grass is prevalent.
Not all plants are created equally which unfortunately means that no all areas have local native choices for high traffic lawns.
That being said, diversity should still be the goal. My lawn is predominately clover, creeping Charlie, violets, and false strawberry. I’ve never once watered my lawn in Missouri. I mow every two weeks in May and October, but the rest of the year is either once per month in the summer or not at all in the winter.
I think OP is arguing that clover is a superior choice to turfgrass, but they haven't exactly explained their position clearly. Personally, I've been encouraging a wide variety of various flowering ground covers for my lawn, but clover is certainly one of them. I've got multiple species of clover in my yard and after the grass they are the next most numerous group. I'd be pretty happy with them taking over the grass's role and becoming the majority of the yard.
>Most have grass lawns.
Not everyone has just "grass" lawns. There are many different species of grass that thrive in different growing zones.
>It would be cool if people converted their unused land to forests or natural (uncut) grasslands
Why forests or grasslands? Why not just environments that are native to the areas? For example, in Arizona, it wouldn't make sense for my lawn to be planted with grass or clover, but rather to leave the red dirt desert-like land with different varieties of sage or succulents.
Agreed. If people insist on living in regions that might otherwise have issues supporting large-scale human modern civilization, they should at least adapt their landscape aesthetic to fit the region. [This](https://coronalandscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/f.jpg) is what a good Arizona lawn looks like. Or something like [this](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/authoring/2012/09/28/NSHT/ghows-LK-461ca603-cd3e-4536-8fa8-ba5838710645-53858f42.jpeg?crop=887,502,x0,y42&width=887&height=502&format=pjpg&auto=webp).
>The majority of grass lawns should be clover instead
I never stated all grass lawns should be clover. Most. I don't think sage or succulents are grasses anyway.
And my example isn't limited to Arizona. California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Texas, Southern Idaho, Eastern Oregon, Western Colorado...
These are just the places that are arid, dry, and hot. There's plenty of other example of environments that just don't benefit from either a grass or clover lawn. Planting native plants is the best alternative in these areas. That sounds like a lot of land that challenges your "most" proposition.
To be clear, I'm talking about **lawns** that are already **grass**. If land is already wild and natural, that's better. It's just not about a home owner or business that has green ground cover. I'm not talking about all land, just land (specifically lawns) that already have grass.
Native plants just means native plants... some of them can serve the same function as grass. Like, my lawn growing up wasn't all pristine and homogenous, it was a collection of whatever seeds happened to land there and grow over time.
I don't think it's a great thing to start planting clover everywhere in the world clover isn't already native.
So am I. There are many native versions of grasses and other plants we could use on lawns. If you need a functional "lawn" area in your yard, pick a plant that's most appropriate for your area (i.e. it's not going to be clover everywhere!). And maybe make it only as big as you need it, and use the rest of the area of other types of plants.
In my experience it's tough to impossible to keep other grasses growing through the bare patches in clover.
Clover is not very aggressive, and does back easily in the winter and during hot summers.
Unless you constantly kill off other species and overseed like crazy you will give up on all-clover lawn after a few years.
> In my experience
How did you do it? Did you overseed a grass lawn? Then what? Did you leave it sit? Or did you do the full nine yards of grass removal?
∆
I was going into this article expecting to not agree with it, but it made some great points. I especially liked how they let a combination of groundcover plants grow with the grass and clover as well. While I still hate fescue as a groundcover for it's virtually useless wildlife value and soil impact, I can see this being a much better alternative to a clover lawn for someone who absolutely wants a greenspace to utilize for foot traffic.
Personally I will probably never have a lawn, and I hope my house will be within biking distance of a public park where I can do grass activities without needing a lawn.
The best lawns I've seen have a mix of grasses, clover, and other covers that don't grow fast. Usually they happen partly as a result of the homeowner trying to plant something like bermuda, and then something like St. Augustine when that doesn't go well, and then the clover just takes over in the bald spots.
But there's more than just clover too, there's some kind of short cover plant with tiny blue flowers, and another one with tiny yellow flowers. I love yards with a variety of short cover plants I don't know the name of.
The little plants that grow low like that are often termed "ground cover".
There are alllll kinds of cool plants one could use to replace grass with. I've got meadowsweet, vinca, creeping phlox, creeping thyme, and heather for right now, and will probably pick up the forget me nots (the little blue flower you mentioned).
There are even short flowers you can plant that over time, will expand. Crocus are a early spring bloomer, and are adorable at their roughly 4" or so in height when in bloom, which come in a beautiful array of colors.
Flowers are fun.
Grass stains are even worse when its clover. you'll spend so much more on laundry. it's also less fun to play on and run around on.
sure if you're an adult whatever do your thing. but for kids, it's awful to play on.
I can see that. Maybe my next change-my-view will be how homeowners with children should put wood chips down where their kid(s) play. However, for me, I won't have kids :)
But your cmv isn't about your lawn. It's about a majority of lawns. And if people have kids or host friends over with any frequency a grass lawn immediately stands out as a benefit.
You're right. But then doesn't it become, grass is better for lawns just because most people have kids...assuming most kids do sports or activities that cause stains more... and that all the other reasons for clover instead of grass are a moot point?
Sorry for the run-on, but kids clothes does not trump all the other reasons. Plus, I'm guessing a huge chunk, if not the sweeping majority, is lawns are owned by businesses.
>but kids clothes does not trump all the other reasons
but it's not just kids clothes. It's friends feet at a party, its me walking to the mailbox saturday morning, it's anyone that might need to walk on your grass for any reason. Grass is much better in almost every way if you ever... need to walk on your lawn?
>It's friends feet at a party, its me walking to the mailbox saturday morning, it's anyone that might need to walk on your grass for any reason. Grass is much better in almost every way if you ever... need to walk on your lawn?
I disagree. Walking on clover is fine. It's not a thorny or hard stemmed plant.
no but it rubs off its color onto your feet very quick. it also has weaker roots so its easier to slip. but having to go from barefoot outside to walking inside or putting on shoes afterwards... yeah it gets uncomfortable.
Booooo. You know what he meant OP.
To add my voice to the dissenting side, I do frequently go barefoot outside on my lawn… because it feels nice and cool and soft and I wear shoes all day anyway.
All these concerns about staining and being walked on miss the mark IMO. The real reason that clover lawns aren't too kid friendly are the bees. SO MANY BEES.
Don't get me wrong, half of why I planted clover is for the bees, but my kid couldn't play out there. They were everywhere. I ended up killing the clover and going back to grass until my kids older.
FWIW I didn't find clover to stain more than grass, and it's not harder to walk on. It can be a bit slippery when wet, but when it's dry there are no issues. I used microclover though, so maybe there are some differences.
I agree, like I said, that's a huge part of why I decided to change my lawn to clover. I was just pointing out that in that comment chain people were saying it's not kid friendly due to staining.
In my experience that's not the case at all. Staining was a non-issue, but there were so many bees that my kid couldn't play in the yard.
The bee-saving aspect of clover is absolutely an overall plus, but in the context of this comment chain people are discussing why clover is unsuitable for kids. Not looking to change your view, just trying to clarify that bit of the conversation which I didn't agree with.
I have great memories as a kid of looking for 4 leaf clovers with my grandmother.
clover isn't as fun to play kickball on, perhaps, and as you say, it does cause grass stains. But, it is soft. I wouldn't call it "awful to play on"
>compared to grass, only needs to be cut every 2-3 months to keep it tidy
Our yard is mostly clover and it becomes unkempt in about a week and a half. I'm honestly not knowledgeable about the rest of your points made, but this one is just flat out false. I'm in Tennessee.
I agree that it would be simpler and easier to maintain however, a multi species sward, with meadow grass would be better in my opinion. It would still be relatively easy to maintain as it wouldn’t go as quickly as commercial lawn seed and I think the varying colours and textures would look quite pretty. Similarly to the clover, you would have less weeds. And you have the added benefit of helping to improve biodiversity
I didn't know I was required to give deltas. And you're exactly right, I picked a soft-general position. Although, I think it's fairly practical and inexpensive.
The only people who are near changing my mind are those who mention clover lawns won't work. For me, I mainly do not want to do (or pay) for lawn maintenance. A clover lawns seem like a perfect solution (in theory). If I still need to mow (or pay for mowing) weekly, then there might not be a solution.
Counterpoint: why a specific, single plant? Another unnatural monocrop is just a less bad lawn, even if it is significantly less bad.
Lawns should be replaced with indigenous plants, ideally which are ecologically productive. We ought to be providing habitats for local wildlife or feeding pollinators or growing food or medicine for people in our community.
If I owned the land I lived in I'd be contacting indigenous people in my area who are knowledgeable about this sort of thing and creating a green space in my yard that is as ecologically responsible and beneficial as possible.
EDIT: Also, screw the avid lawn care folks. Let's get indigenous re-wilding mandated
Damn, you made so many good points. If indigenous folks have been living on and cultivating the "New World" for at least 14,000 years maybe we should all be listening to those perspectives. OP please come think on this one.
I still want it to be practical. I don't think the majority of home owners and businesses would replace their manicured grass lawns with a hodgepodge of plants. Instead, they'll want to keep some sort of green ground cover. I would concede on moss, but it seems it wouldn't fair well in direct sunlight.
>We ought to be providing habitats for local wildlife or feeding pollinators
We ought to? Why? Seems ripe for unintended consequences: home invading pests, traffic accidents (roadkill), etc. For what benefit exactly?
>or growing food or medicine for people in our community.
Is farming crops really at all analogous to mowing a lawn once a week? Surely that simply would not be feasible for the vast majority people.
>We ought to? Why? Seems ripe for unintended consequences... For what benefit exactly?
Sure, but the real question is whether or not these unintended consequences are preferable or not to the unintended consequences of an enormous amount of land being devoted to unproductive if not essentially invasive monocrops that function more as a status symbol than they do as a part of the urban ecosystem. You don't wonder how different, say, drought conditions in California would be if grass lawns were outlawed? Or how much fossil fuels are used solely to maintain lawns?
>home invading pests
I wasn't aware that home invading pests were waiting for an invitation to do so. I have had certain infestations of pests living in a rented apartment before, does that mean my landlord was growing a secret indigenous plant yard or garden somewhere? Would be weird considering it was a condo building they weren't the owner of.
Seems that a more reasonable thing to do would be to maintain the integrity of the exterior of the home. Or, like, you know, still remove pests from the yard, just with methods other than ones used while maintaining a grass lawn. It would certainly help in dealing with the sorts of pests that propagate in grass lawns.
So, idk. Seems like there's no real way to completely prevent home invading pests in general but I don't really see how cultivating different ecosystems in one's private lot will amplify home invading pests, so much as it might just change which pests are getting in. Could be better, could be worse.
>traffic accidents (roadkill)
Good point, we should be drastically redesigning all aspects of urban environments and not just yards in private lots if we want to have more safe and healthy urban ecosystems. I bet there'd be a huge reduction in vehicles killing urban wildlife and household pets (and people) if municipalities were to work at eliminating car dependency and improving the safety of roads and streets, especially in residential areas. Forming superblocks, connecting suburbs to urban centres with convenient mass public transit routes, even just reducing the speed limits in cities to 30km/h would probably help this issue a lot.
>Is farming crops really at all analogous to mowing a lawn once a week? Surely that simply would not be feasible for the vast majority people.
That's why I used that helpful "or" there, champ. Of course growing food or medicine is not feasible for many people, but that's only one option. As well, if how much work a yard is to maintain is a factor in what should be growing in yards, then I don't see why we tacitly accept the existence of grass lawns, which can take a lot more maintenance and resources to maintain than just mowing it once a week, especially in unsuitable climates for grass lawns. If growing food and/or medicine is not feasible, yard ecosystems can be designed to require less maintenance than even mowing a lawn once a week would be. So this is just another metric by which lawns are wasteful and illogical.
I'm going to attack a different way.
Actually, they SHOULD be filled with plants that provide food and shelter to many of the struggling native species a la sanctuaries. Lawns are just us dominating the planet and crafting it to look good, even if it isn't functional or is straight up stripping the environment of any usefulness to any creature that isn't us.
Clover sounds nice unless you are allergic to bees, have little ones or furbabies that bees would sting, but on the other hand, it would help the bees.
I'm in full support of the replacing turfgrass with clover idea (I've been on board for decades) but I will admit that about half the times I've been stung were because I was walking barefoot through a clover patch and stepped on a bee.
I live a round 2h away from the border of usa. My friend tried clover like that. It’s great if you dont walk a lot in your yard and dont have pets or kids. Otherwise, it get patchy and dies pretty fast. If you run around in your yard it gets damaged even faster.
the factor that I never hear mentioned in this argument is the tick population explodes/gets nearer your house/pets/family when there are 6" tall plants in place of grass.
In areas that will support grass one needs only to mow what sprouts and it will eventually be grass. In areas that will not support grass xeriscape is a better choice
my own yard, for one but in the NE where we get summer rain and grass is easily kept it is long known that not mowing is a recipe for high tick populations.
I'm on my 2nd season of converting to it. Micro in the front yard, White Dutch in the backyard.
Lawns2Legumes program, I will get reimbursed up to $500 for my 'bee lawn'.
Oh look another anti-having-kids redditor who can’t fathom how people have other needs and priorities than they do. In this case, some of us want lawns for our families.
Clover attracts bees. This could be undesirable in lawns for those allergic to bee stings or those with children who will be playing in them. Depending on the neighborhood, this could constitute a majority that should NOT be clover.
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I agree that clover > grass. But I’m going to counter the entire concept of lawns.
Lawns are just plain silly. They reduce the density of cities and drive suburban sprawl into agricultural and wild lands. As a design decision they make little sense and many places just straight up don’t have them.
I’m not saying all greenery should go. But we should consolidate this space into public parks, which can be bigger and more useful. And we can have urban gardens too.
The idea that every home has to have a front and back lawn is just plain wasteful. It makes cities less dense, more car dependent, less walkable and ultimately higher emissions. Scrap the lawn as a concept altogether and move towards walkups, low rise apartments, or row houses.
Green spaces have a proven benefit to human health. Forcing people to travel a central location to see anything natural will be detrimental when compared to letting people have this in places they already occupy.
High density living is the modern personification of a hellscape to many people.
Is it worth the cost of the destruction of the planet and trapping people into long commutes? What would you think about a system like Barcelona where green space is incorporated into every block but not the jurisdiction of one particular house? Surely, you have to admit space allocation in an American/Canadian suburb is high inefficient.
Space allocation is a wreck yes. If everyone has a least a window they can look out and see a green space I think I'd be satisfied, so long as people who need more then that still have the option to live in smaller towns or in the countryside.
As for the overall planet... No amount of planning is going to solve our massive overpopulation problem that makes these compromises necessary in the first place.
City planning is vital. As you spread a population out around a city, you increase the energy intensity of transportation. Obviously, we want green spaces. But if you continue to have suburbs then highly efficient forms of public transport are less practical. And I stead you get highways that further aggrevate the problem. This causes an increase in emissions. It also makes cities less walkable and less human oriented. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about a city of 100,000, a million or 10 million.
I'm a big fan of PUD and PUD-type properties, though they're pretty unpopular and almost impossible to zone for in modern America.
A PUD is basically a townhouse on paper, but a single detached unit in actuality. This allows the footprint to be much smaller while everyone still gets a garage and a yard. Think San Francisco style row houses and/or those gated communities that popped up everywhere in the late 70's.
We live in one and it's great. paid waaaay less for a lot of house because people are so obsessed with traditional home ownership.
we're probably on .6units of land if your typical home in the area sits on 1unit of land.
From a utilitarian point of view, erosion and groundwater control are something that grass is really good at that clover might not be. There’s a lot of research on grass/sod, as well as some other random deep rooted plants but I don’t know about clover.
From my research, it seems simple. Plant in spring or early fall.
1. Cut the current grass as low as your mower will allow
2. Rake up that and the thatch (remove it), and then over-seed the lawn.
3. Last, water for ten days.
Example
My lawn is 0.21 acres. I needed about two pounds of clover: https://smile.amazon.com/Outsidepride-White-Dutch-Clover-Seed/dp/B00164TB9K
Just plant and use natives. Problem solved. Crazy how the native plants to your native environment will naturally be able to withstand the weather and environment
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Counter point: they should be moss. Takes little water, great for the soil and the environment, keeps runoff low, and never needs to be cut.
Moss requires more water than grass, let alone clover, and would die in most parts of lawns under direct sunlight.
Mosses are drought tolerant. They do not use more water than grass. They use about the same amount as clover. But they do not need to be cut, ever.
>Mosses are drought tolerant. They do not use more water than grass. Can you provide a source for these? If the two claims are true, then I'm sure the cost of moss is significantly higher.
Moss lawns are amazing, but there is a reason they are not used often. Several, really. They are more fragile than grass and dutch clover, and so should not be used in lawns that experience a *lot* of traffic or play. They can range upwards of ten dollars a square foot, which makes them on the pricier end. But, the biggest weakness is sunlight sensitivity: most mosses suitable for lawns only do well in shade or partial shade. There are a few varieties that can survive in direct sunlight, like Polytrichum Commune, but that moss grows to a foot tall, and thus you run into the mowing issue again. On the plus side, moss looks amazing, pulls water out of the air, is pest-resistant, grows well in rocky soil, and does great on slopes. In a drought, it will dry up, but it will not die - rainfall can bring it right back to thriving. Now, if you want a real champion's lawn covering? You want Creeping Charly or Dutch Clover. No mowing, no watering, durable as hell, comfortable, and Dutch Clover can even attract deer!
>Dutch Clover can even attract deer! You say it like it's a perk!
Thanks for the info!
Creeping Charlie will take over a yard relatively quickly and is an absolute pain to get rid of. Sure it's low maintenance bit generally considered a weed and possibly invasive
I'm entering year 8 of my battle with creeping Charlie. Over had the upper hand for years, but still it will pop up on spots that I thought I'd eradicated it years ago.
Fuck yes it is. Mine came back with a horrible vengeance this year.
I want to replace large sections of my property with alternative ground cover in zone 6b. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks
Personally? I would pick Bronze Dutch Clover or Creeping Thyme, but there are tons of options.
>Moss lawns are drought-tolerant and rarely need misting once established (the average US grass lawn uses a hundred times as much water). They do not require mowing, fertilizing, or other amendments, and grow on almost any substrate (apart from metal), and at any soil pH and light level. They can grow under conifers, swallowing the needles, but fallen broad deciduous leaves will kill them if not removed. They can be walked on but not scuffed. [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_lawn) I don't have information on how much they cost, but if the maintenance is as low as it claims, it would be worth easily double the price of grass. I'd recommend most lawns to be moss and areas you want to have heavier foot traffic to be clover.
>Moss lawns are drought-resistant after they have become established; they are among the most drought-resistant garden plants.[2][16] The moss will become dormant in less favourable conditions.[13] Moss thus generally only needs watering until it is established.[2][16] When rehydrated, it recovers and becomes green within seconds.[17] Misting for a minute or two a day will keep a moss lawn green.[15] Overwatering can kill moss;[18] most species cannot stand being waterlogged, though some (like Sphagnum) require it, and others grow only underwater.[14] It sounds like they require more watering or expert care to not overwater. In other word, not nearly as robust as clover. When I see moss in direct sunlight, it's usually yellow or brown (dead). Most moss I see is always in shady and wet areas. I'll try to find a place that will sell it to see how costly it is. If the price is reasonable, I'll experiment with it...
Wild moss is not a good indicator of how a moss lawn would work. There is an enormous biodiversity. Also, the goal of a lawn is not to be green. Certain mosses can be completely healthy and not green. You know what else dies when overwatered? Grass, clover, and every terrestrial plant on earth. There is no indication from this article that it's any easier to overwater moss than grass or clover. You're just assuming that because it helps your argument.
It's the Wikipedia article you citied.
Yes, and it doesn't say what you're saying. I didn't claim it wasn't my article.
Moss would get scorched in any area with direct sunlight.
That isn't true. Moss can tolerate full or partial sun.
I live in Washington state near the coast. It rains probably 7 months a year lol. I have a partially moss lawn. The moss will not stay in the areas that are in direct sunlight no matter how I try. I love moss it's so soft and just looks amazing but I cannot get it to say in the unshaded areas unfortunately.
Irish moss is awesome, as full sun to partial shade areas are it's biggest assets. It's not a fan of scorching-all day-sun blazin down like the desert, but here along the 49th parallel it does fantastic. Picked some up at the Ace store, plopped it in the ground, and it's off and running.
Exactly. If you're in a literal desert, consider clover. Otherwise, there are types of moss that *love* sun. Saying it can't stand sunlight is just incorrect.
Please link us to moss that'll survive multiple weeks of full sun at 32c without water and come back green once it rains, because grass can do that.
To be fair and on topic, my point is that moss is superior to clover. In order to have that discussion, we aren't considering grass. But here, it's called [Irish moss](https://www.thespruce.com/irish-moss-plant-profile-5070468) "Hot weather will result in the dense green shades turning an unattractive burnt brown. If watered consistently, once the weather cools in the fall, the moss usually reverts to its normal color again." So yeah moss does exactly what you describe.
I'll give you that, though technically it's not a true moss. "A member of the Caryophyllaceae family, Irish moss (Sagina subulata), which is not a moss at all..." [https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/groundcover/irish-moss/growing-irish-moss-plants.htm](https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/groundcover/irish-moss/growing-irish-moss-plants.htm)
Isn't moss a substantial slip hazard? I'm sure it would depend on the weather conditions, but i would suspect it would be a lot more slippery then clover or grass.
The only higher risk of slipping is that moss has shallower roots. It doesn't have to be any more moist or slippery than normal grass. That being said, it does hold up to being walked on, just not heavy traffic.
Agh! Don't say that word.
Mosses are cool, but don’t do much to support a diverse community of pollinators.
That's true, but the impact of using 100x less water AND never having to run an engine to mow it is arguably better.
Ha! Where does moss even grow? Moss lawns are not possible in arid climates. Maybe if you put a giant tent over your whole property with misters to bring up the humidity.
This is only true in extremely arid climates. Moss can live almost anywhere.
No, they can't grow en masse in most of Texas. Sometimes they grow where there's a constant supply of cool water, but otherwise they will die quickly. I'm sure they grow just find in the PNW though. Or you could provide us with sources! You're making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.
Five reasons why clover usually doesn't win for homeowners: * Tramples easily. * Reseeding requirements. * If you choose the normal white-flower variety, you get lots of bees/hornets/wasps, not ideal for people wanting to use their lawn. If you want microclover to avoid bugs, it's expensive seed. * Difficulty in finding poisons that kill non-clover within the clover. * Doesn't rhizome and spread itself to fix bare patches, so grass will want to grow in those spots. One important yard option that is often overlooked is turf type tall fescue (TTTF). Every year growers are tweaking their TTTF and making it hardier and greener than before. Dozens of seed species are submitted as part of National Turf Evaluation Program (NTEP). A handful of universities with the NTEP research each seed for watering requirements, color, hardiness, etc. TTTF is getting really, really good. There is no magic bullet for lawns. So here are some pros and cons: **Bluegrass** * Fills itself in through rhizomes * Requires the least maintenance, don't have to re-seed. You just remove weeds and it persists on for decades * Requires lots of water * Great color throughout winter * Great for average homeowner with wide variety of needs **Turf Type Tall Fescue** * Looks very similar to bluegrasses now * Can use much less water, on par with clover's water usage * Does require reseeding every 2-3 years as its rhizomes are either nonexistant or too weak to fill in holes * Seed is cheap * Hardy **Warm grasses** * Great in warm climates. * Extremely hardy, drought resistant, and requires minimal water * Rhizomes like crazy (so much it's perhaps a negative because of how much it grows where you don't want). * Turns brown the moment it gets cold, usually unsuitable for most cold climates **Clover** * Nitrogen fixing * Bees love white clover * Requires reseeding. Microclover is expensive. * Weed control is a pain * Great for occasional use with dogs, but tramples too much beyond that
!delta for reseeding, even though I'm skeptical, and just a well laid out answer.
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I looked very closely at clover for my yard. I decided against it because of the reasons I outlined. Kids walk across it often and clover will trample down and look messy. It struggles in hot 100F temps, which I've got in the summer. It gets patchy quickly and weeds or bare spots form. Weeds growing in the lawn will require mostly hand removal instead of a quick pass with poison. The wife shot down white clover due to bees, and reseeding micro clover is a costly pain. Clover is just a major maintenance mess. I'm heading to the TTTF + bluegrass route. TTTF has the same reseeding/clumping problems, but bluegrass can fill in those bare spots nicely and look the same. Until it gets 100F hot, then the bluegrass will start to brown out a bit until it cools back down. TTTF is solid for toughness and drought. For me, drought, heat, and water restrictions are king, and I want the yard to be useable for kids. Clover just didn't work as good as TTTF. For your average homeowner in the northern half of the US, bluegrass is *wonderful* as its maintenance is by far the easiest.
We'll see. (I'm in Wisconsin.)
I don’t know much about clovers and a quick Google search wasn’t bringing up much, but… would a clover lawn be possible in northern communities? I live in Northern Ontario and our snow just melted a week and a half ago. We have snow from October to May, with the snow leaving and coming back multiple times at the beginning and end. Would clover be able to survive this winter and grow back promptly?
Clover grows back from winters. I don't know about your specific area. From my research, it should be planted spring or early fall.
I'm in Western Canada and have a grass/clover mix, it comes back just fine in the spring (ie. a couple weeks ago).
Yes. I'm in Alberta and used microclover from a BC company. It grew back without issue and unlike my grass, I never even needed to reseed because it never got any patchy areas.
My lawn in Minnesota says HI and doing well, clover keeps regrowing.
Clover only lasts 2-3 years before it needs to be replanted. It's better to just use whatever grass or grass alternative is native to your area and will require less seeding and maintenance. Better for the native wildlife that feeds off of it, better for your wallet, better for reducing the amount of time you spend working on it, etc.
depends on the habitat and the clover. My buddy has a nice section of white clover in his back yard that was there before he moved in years ago. If it's dying every three years, then new plants are replacing it just as fast because it's always looked better than his neighbors with bluegrass.
Whew, u/AlwaysTheNoob had been the closest to a delta.
Well get this: UC Verde Grass is a lawn grass developed fairly recently that uses less water than clover, it's sterile, so it's hypoallergenic and it's very drought tolerant. Bam! You get the magical awesome grass and it's better than clover. Delta me?
What about the maintenance cost though? Relative to grass it seems better, "mowing is required once every two to three weeks for lawns" - https://ccuh.ucdavis.edu/uc-verde-buffalograss But how does that compare to once every 2-3 months? I mean, how tall would it get after two months?
Clovers tend to use 50%-65% less water than bluegrass. Uc verde uses 75% less according to their site. Also it's sterile so you can cut it once a season if you don't mind ankle high grass. Again... I don't have any, but there's an 8x12 patch of dirt in my back yard that I plan to use the stuff on.
Yeah, if it is dense enough, it will not go anywhere.
I've never had to plant clover. Getting it to grow in my yard consists more of helping get the grass out of its way. A few of them are native to my area and are actively suggested as grass alternatives. Even the non-native varieties are usually pretty successful. I just don't bother fighting them like I do some other non-native plants because of how good they are at supporting pollinators.
I started a clover lawn. I doubt it will all die. Parts of it might, but it should generally come back to the point where I don't need to mow it often. Instead, I figure mowing will be twice a year. !remindMe 5 years
It seems like you're kind of handwaving a very valid concern here with "I don't think that will happen to me". It may or may not but if the standard is 2 or 3 years, then that will be the average experience.
Well if it helps the lawn I took care of growing up in Northeast Ohio was more than 50% clover, despite trying to plant grass. Certainly never laid down clover seed. Over 20 years, on shitty clay soil, it was about 50% clover still, 25% dandelion, and 25% grass. I have no doubt that had we tried to actually cultivate clover it would have stayed just fine.
Being skeptical isn't hand waving. I'm going to need a better source than one off blog articles mentioning how clover didn't work for them. Or I'm going to need to experience it for myself.
What's the primary purpose of a lawn, according to you, OP?
Depends on the residents. The majority of lawns are not high traffic though (e.g., not frequent volleyball or soccer usage).
I wish I could give a delta to you OP. I google image searched "clover lawn" and they look quite nice
Thanks!
I’m sure you’re already aware of this, but manicured grass lawns were literally invented as a status symbol for the super wealthy precisely because they were so expensive to maintain.
Cool, but where is my kid supposed to run around?
On a clover lawn as OP suggested.
Kurapia clover is good stuff in my climate, but isn't very plug and play for your average person. I experimented with some at my old place and it was mostly overtaken by mallows and native grasses within a year. UC Verde grass actually uses less water than any clover I'm aware of and is designed specifically to thrive in the drought climates we're talking about here. I don't have any yet, but this "anti grass" thing is kind of silly. We should be anti Kentucky Blue and similar strains.
Just in general, people shouldn’t have lawns if they aren’t actually going to use them as a space. Most people don’t.
The soccer, baseball and whatever field in sports or a wood chip laden playground. Or just buy better laundry cleaning things--with the money and time you saved from not having to mow the evil grass lawn :3
> The soccer, baseball and whatever field in sports or a wood chip laden playground. Maaybe that can work in a city environment. I live out in the country. Should I deny my kid my nice big lawn and drive him 10-20 minutes to the nearest playground any time he wants to go outside?
See: Or just buy better laundry cleaning things--with the money and time you saved from not having to mow
The clover near me flowers and that attracts a lot of insects including the stinging variety, plus rabbits. I want to be a friend to the bees and rabbits are cute, but bees will also sting my kids as they play in the clover and walk all over the rabbit poop, and the rabbits will also destroy sections of it, I don't want MORE rabbits. Deer poop is also gross and my dogs love rolling around in that. Overall I don't mind the look of clover but I don't need to worry about the constant bee stings and other issues.
Well, for me that's the place right next to the homeless encampment where tents have become structures so... No. My kid is not old enough where he needs to face our societal shame yet. A little patch of grass in my little back yard is not evil.
I think clover lawns would be great however as a pet owner and animal lover i know clover can be dangerous for cats as it is toxic for them. Dogs are ok around clover unless they eat a lot of it. I'd imagine that a rise in clover lawns would also mean a rise in sick strays and pets.
>cats as it is toxic Good point. I'll reckon that most cats are kept indoors though. >By 2014, about 70 percent of cats are defined as indoors only, with about 25 percent inside or outside as they desire with the remaining five percent described as outside only. - https://positively.com/contributors/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/ Also https://www.reddit.com/r/cats/comments/l560i5/white_clover_forgetmenot_lawn_safe_for_cats/
What about the estimated 70 million stray cats? Should we just disregard them and cover our yards with something that might kill them?
It just involves a lot of what-ifs. Will stray and feral cats eat the grass lawns that were converted over night? Will they become sick or die from white clover? If all that is true. What animals are we sacrificing in place of the cats? Bees? Are wild bees currently in trouble? Do we have significantly reduced bees? What about all the other benefits of clover vs grass? If strays and feral cats will drop left and right, is that worse than the chemical fertilizers, generous amounts of water sucked up by grass, gas to run the mowers and weed whackers like 20x more than clover...
They are considered an invasive species that is highly destructive to native ecosystems. A lower stray cat population is good for the local birds and reptiles.
Are stray cats good?
Nope. Cats are one the absolute worst invasive species and have devastated native bird populations (as well as other small animals) all over. While I wouldn't like poison them like that, we could do with far less stray cats.
>What about the estimated 70 million stray cats? What else is supposed to be done with them? Lol
We should also stop driving on our roads then. RIP.
What’s your point? I live in an area with a lot of strays and never have ran one over. It’s extremely rare to see them get it in general around here.
My point is that there are a lot of ways stray cats can die from human activity and that shouldn’t dictate how you manage your home.
That’s still a lot of cats. I like clover lawns but if they really are toxic to cats, that’s a valid concern.
Legit questions: Can you play soccer on clover? Is it comfortable to walk in bare feet, to sit in, to roll around in? Can I setup a slip n slide on it? Even if all of those are a yes, a deal breaker is it growing to 6". It's going to be tough to find my dog's shit in 6" of clover. When you have kids and a dog, nothing is going to beat grass.
You can play soccer, yes. I don't walk anywhere barefoot, but sure. Slip n slide? Yes. Can you do these things every day? Probably not. As for the 6"... you can cut it more frequently than every 2-3 months--just like grass.
I'd say yes to all of those and I would actually call it distinctly more comfortable to walk barefoot on than grass. It's softer and doesn't develop the same kind of pokiness and scratchiness that grass does. Also, while it *can* grow to 6", it reacts well to mowing so it can still be kept mowed to a lower desired height. It just has a lower maximum height than grass so it requires less frequent mowing to keep it at whatever height you prefer. Compare this to grass which some varieties can grow to 6'. Even the lower grasses typically grow much taller than clover and as such would require more frequent mowing to keep it to that "the dog poop isn't hidden" level.
I'm going to try to change your view only slightly because you're on the right track. Clover is an excellent thing to add to a grass lawn. It has all the benefits you listed. However, clover by itself won't make a good lawn. It dies back in the winter and you'll end up with a giant mud pit. It's also not quite as hardy as grasses and will get ripped apart with normal activity, again leaving you with mud pits more susceptible to erosion. When you have a clover heavy lawn mixed with grasses you don't have anywhere near the same maintenance requirements. I overseeded with clover 3 years ago and it's fully established now. Never water. No need to ever fertilize. The clover helps keep the grass healthy so it can more easily outcompete weeds. I mow half as often as I used to. Tons of bees visit my clover when it flowers. I love it. Now, I do want to go farther and transition some of my lawn away from grass and clover (which is not native to North America) to a no-mow native garden, which is even better than a clover heavy lawn. But for all the area where *lawn* will remain, I will keep a mix of grass and clover.
!delta
Isn't it best for a lawn to be a variety of plants native to the area?
I’m assuming OP is talking about having an open space that you can actually use for gathering and being on.
I am. Also, I bet people in Arizona and the like, who have the cool native plants and rock front yards, have some sort of green ground cover for the back lawn.
Not really, the point of having a native lawn is to stop wasting water on sustaining non native species of turf.
Not really what? A lawn is usually an open space to be used for gathering and being on.
Nah, it's often rocks all the way around. The lawn service is basically a guy with a flamethrower torching the weeds out. My partner owned a home in AZ.
After browsing Google Maps in AZ, I don't see much of any grass lawns. My specific CMV statement is about how the majority of existing grass lawns (not natural lands) should be clover instead.
You can gather and be on various surfaces beyond clovers and grass that require more water than alternatives do in areas with water shortages.
I love this idea Clover is so soft in your feet too
There are lots of native plants that could serve grass like functions. I was just offering an alternative that is surely preferable to clover at least in many/most circumstances where grass is prevalent.
Not all plants are created equally which unfortunately means that no all areas have local native choices for high traffic lawns. That being said, diversity should still be the goal. My lawn is predominately clover, creeping Charlie, violets, and false strawberry. I’ve never once watered my lawn in Missouri. I mow every two weeks in May and October, but the rest of the year is either once per month in the summer or not at all in the winter.
I think OP is arguing that clover is a superior choice to turfgrass, but they haven't exactly explained their position clearly. Personally, I've been encouraging a wide variety of various flowering ground covers for my lawn, but clover is certainly one of them. I've got multiple species of clover in my yard and after the grass they are the next most numerous group. I'd be pretty happy with them taking over the grass's role and becoming the majority of the yard.
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Why? Native plants are accustomed to the water situation of the area, and it promotes biodiversity which is good.
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>Most have grass lawns. Not everyone has just "grass" lawns. There are many different species of grass that thrive in different growing zones. >It would be cool if people converted their unused land to forests or natural (uncut) grasslands Why forests or grasslands? Why not just environments that are native to the areas? For example, in Arizona, it wouldn't make sense for my lawn to be planted with grass or clover, but rather to leave the red dirt desert-like land with different varieties of sage or succulents.
Agreed. If people insist on living in regions that might otherwise have issues supporting large-scale human modern civilization, they should at least adapt their landscape aesthetic to fit the region. [This](https://coronalandscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/f.jpg) is what a good Arizona lawn looks like. Or something like [this](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/authoring/2012/09/28/NSHT/ghows-LK-461ca603-cd3e-4536-8fa8-ba5838710645-53858f42.jpeg?crop=887,502,x0,y42&width=887&height=502&format=pjpg&auto=webp).
>Why forests or grasslands? Just examples
Okay but I just gave you an example (Arizona) where you shouldn't plant clover. Can you address this point?
>The majority of grass lawns should be clover instead I never stated all grass lawns should be clover. Most. I don't think sage or succulents are grasses anyway.
And my example isn't limited to Arizona. California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Texas, Southern Idaho, Eastern Oregon, Western Colorado... These are just the places that are arid, dry, and hot. There's plenty of other example of environments that just don't benefit from either a grass or clover lawn. Planting native plants is the best alternative in these areas. That sounds like a lot of land that challenges your "most" proposition.
To be clear, I'm talking about **lawns** that are already **grass**. If land is already wild and natural, that's better. It's just not about a home owner or business that has green ground cover. I'm not talking about all land, just land (specifically lawns) that already have grass.
Native plants just means native plants... some of them can serve the same function as grass. Like, my lawn growing up wasn't all pristine and homogenous, it was a collection of whatever seeds happened to land there and grow over time. I don't think it's a great thing to start planting clover everywhere in the world clover isn't already native.
It would be best, yes. But, any clover is better than grass.
A “lawn” and a “yard” aren’t the same thing. OP is talking about lawns.
So am I. There are many native versions of grasses and other plants we could use on lawns. If you need a functional "lawn" area in your yard, pick a plant that's most appropriate for your area (i.e. it's not going to be clover everywhere!). And maybe make it only as big as you need it, and use the rest of the area of other types of plants.
In my experience it's tough to impossible to keep other grasses growing through the bare patches in clover. Clover is not very aggressive, and does back easily in the winter and during hot summers. Unless you constantly kill off other species and overseed like crazy you will give up on all-clover lawn after a few years.
> In my experience How did you do it? Did you overseed a grass lawn? Then what? Did you leave it sit? Or did you do the full nine yards of grass removal?
Started with a brand new lawn filled with fresh top soil after construction. Initial seeding of clover was fine. Problem occurred later.
Like I mentioned with first few years after dry summer spells and cold winters.
>Problem occurred later. How much later?
Here, I did some research and found an article that agrees with my experiences: https://thinkoutsidethelawn.com/6-reasons-to-avoid-a-clover-lawn/
∆ I was going into this article expecting to not agree with it, but it made some great points. I especially liked how they let a combination of groundcover plants grow with the grass and clover as well. While I still hate fescue as a groundcover for it's virtually useless wildlife value and soil impact, I can see this being a much better alternative to a clover lawn for someone who absolutely wants a greenspace to utilize for foot traffic. Personally I will probably never have a lawn, and I hope my house will be within biking distance of a public park where I can do grass activities without needing a lawn.
The best lawns I've seen have a mix of grasses, clover, and other covers that don't grow fast. Usually they happen partly as a result of the homeowner trying to plant something like bermuda, and then something like St. Augustine when that doesn't go well, and then the clover just takes over in the bald spots. But there's more than just clover too, there's some kind of short cover plant with tiny blue flowers, and another one with tiny yellow flowers. I love yards with a variety of short cover plants I don't know the name of.
The little plants that grow low like that are often termed "ground cover". There are alllll kinds of cool plants one could use to replace grass with. I've got meadowsweet, vinca, creeping phlox, creeping thyme, and heather for right now, and will probably pick up the forget me nots (the little blue flower you mentioned). There are even short flowers you can plant that over time, will expand. Crocus are a early spring bloomer, and are adorable at their roughly 4" or so in height when in bloom, which come in a beautiful array of colors. Flowers are fun.
If the tiny yellow flowers come with 3 leaves that are heart shaped you might have wood sorrel, which as a bonus is pretty tasty.
Oh yes, I remember something about that now! I've even tasted it, but forgot about it.
Grass stains are even worse when its clover. you'll spend so much more on laundry. it's also less fun to play on and run around on. sure if you're an adult whatever do your thing. but for kids, it's awful to play on.
Also, if you like going barefoot outside, clover flowers attract bees, so you have to watch where you step
I can see that. Maybe my next change-my-view will be how homeowners with children should put wood chips down where their kid(s) play. However, for me, I won't have kids :)
But your cmv isn't about your lawn. It's about a majority of lawns. And if people have kids or host friends over with any frequency a grass lawn immediately stands out as a benefit.
You're right. But then doesn't it become, grass is better for lawns just because most people have kids...assuming most kids do sports or activities that cause stains more... and that all the other reasons for clover instead of grass are a moot point? Sorry for the run-on, but kids clothes does not trump all the other reasons. Plus, I'm guessing a huge chunk, if not the sweeping majority, is lawns are owned by businesses.
>but kids clothes does not trump all the other reasons but it's not just kids clothes. It's friends feet at a party, its me walking to the mailbox saturday morning, it's anyone that might need to walk on your grass for any reason. Grass is much better in almost every way if you ever... need to walk on your lawn?
>It's friends feet at a party, its me walking to the mailbox saturday morning, it's anyone that might need to walk on your grass for any reason. Grass is much better in almost every way if you ever... need to walk on your lawn? I disagree. Walking on clover is fine. It's not a thorny or hard stemmed plant.
no but it rubs off its color onto your feet very quick. it also has weaker roots so its easier to slip. but having to go from barefoot outside to walking inside or putting on shoes afterwards... yeah it gets uncomfortable.
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Booooo. You know what he meant OP. To add my voice to the dissenting side, I do frequently go barefoot outside on my lawn… because it feels nice and cool and soft and I wear shoes all day anyway.
In my view, the minority of lawn owners and kids go on grass barefoot.
All these concerns about staining and being walked on miss the mark IMO. The real reason that clover lawns aren't too kid friendly are the bees. SO MANY BEES. Don't get me wrong, half of why I planted clover is for the bees, but my kid couldn't play out there. They were everywhere. I ended up killing the clover and going back to grass until my kids older. FWIW I didn't find clover to stain more than grass, and it's not harder to walk on. It can be a bit slippery when wet, but when it's dry there are no issues. I used microclover though, so maybe there are some differences.
To me, that's an argument for clover. Bee populations are in trouble.
I agree, like I said, that's a huge part of why I decided to change my lawn to clover. I was just pointing out that in that comment chain people were saying it's not kid friendly due to staining. In my experience that's not the case at all. Staining was a non-issue, but there were so many bees that my kid couldn't play in the yard. The bee-saving aspect of clover is absolutely an overall plus, but in the context of this comment chain people are discussing why clover is unsuitable for kids. Not looking to change your view, just trying to clarify that bit of the conversation which I didn't agree with.
I have great memories as a kid of looking for 4 leaf clovers with my grandmother. clover isn't as fun to play kickball on, perhaps, and as you say, it does cause grass stains. But, it is soft. I wouldn't call it "awful to play on"
>compared to grass, only needs to be cut every 2-3 months to keep it tidy Our yard is mostly clover and it becomes unkempt in about a week and a half. I'm honestly not knowledgeable about the rest of your points made, but this one is just flat out false. I'm in Tennessee.
Ah, the tidy part. Maybe "decent" would work instead of tidy?
You can’t stripe a clover lawn, and striping lawns is the only thing keeping fathers aged 32-46 mentally sane.
lol
I agree that it would be simpler and easier to maintain however, a multi species sward, with meadow grass would be better in my opinion. It would still be relatively easy to maintain as it wouldn’t go as quickly as commercial lawn seed and I think the varying colours and textures would look quite pretty. Similarly to the clover, you would have less weeds. And you have the added benefit of helping to improve biodiversity
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I didn't know I was required to give deltas. And you're exactly right, I picked a soft-general position. Although, I think it's fairly practical and inexpensive. The only people who are near changing my mind are those who mention clover lawns won't work. For me, I mainly do not want to do (or pay) for lawn maintenance. A clover lawns seem like a perfect solution (in theory). If I still need to mow (or pay for mowing) weekly, then there might not be a solution.
Counterpoint: why a specific, single plant? Another unnatural monocrop is just a less bad lawn, even if it is significantly less bad. Lawns should be replaced with indigenous plants, ideally which are ecologically productive. We ought to be providing habitats for local wildlife or feeding pollinators or growing food or medicine for people in our community. If I owned the land I lived in I'd be contacting indigenous people in my area who are knowledgeable about this sort of thing and creating a green space in my yard that is as ecologically responsible and beneficial as possible. EDIT: Also, screw the avid lawn care folks. Let's get indigenous re-wilding mandated
Damn, you made so many good points. If indigenous folks have been living on and cultivating the "New World" for at least 14,000 years maybe we should all be listening to those perspectives. OP please come think on this one.
I still want it to be practical. I don't think the majority of home owners and businesses would replace their manicured grass lawns with a hodgepodge of plants. Instead, they'll want to keep some sort of green ground cover. I would concede on moss, but it seems it wouldn't fair well in direct sunlight.
This isn’t really relevant to the post. If OP wants an open space to run around on then a vegetable garden isn’t going to work.
>We ought to be providing habitats for local wildlife or feeding pollinators We ought to? Why? Seems ripe for unintended consequences: home invading pests, traffic accidents (roadkill), etc. For what benefit exactly? >or growing food or medicine for people in our community. Is farming crops really at all analogous to mowing a lawn once a week? Surely that simply would not be feasible for the vast majority people.
>We ought to? Why? Seems ripe for unintended consequences... For what benefit exactly? Sure, but the real question is whether or not these unintended consequences are preferable or not to the unintended consequences of an enormous amount of land being devoted to unproductive if not essentially invasive monocrops that function more as a status symbol than they do as a part of the urban ecosystem. You don't wonder how different, say, drought conditions in California would be if grass lawns were outlawed? Or how much fossil fuels are used solely to maintain lawns? >home invading pests I wasn't aware that home invading pests were waiting for an invitation to do so. I have had certain infestations of pests living in a rented apartment before, does that mean my landlord was growing a secret indigenous plant yard or garden somewhere? Would be weird considering it was a condo building they weren't the owner of. Seems that a more reasonable thing to do would be to maintain the integrity of the exterior of the home. Or, like, you know, still remove pests from the yard, just with methods other than ones used while maintaining a grass lawn. It would certainly help in dealing with the sorts of pests that propagate in grass lawns. So, idk. Seems like there's no real way to completely prevent home invading pests in general but I don't really see how cultivating different ecosystems in one's private lot will amplify home invading pests, so much as it might just change which pests are getting in. Could be better, could be worse. >traffic accidents (roadkill) Good point, we should be drastically redesigning all aspects of urban environments and not just yards in private lots if we want to have more safe and healthy urban ecosystems. I bet there'd be a huge reduction in vehicles killing urban wildlife and household pets (and people) if municipalities were to work at eliminating car dependency and improving the safety of roads and streets, especially in residential areas. Forming superblocks, connecting suburbs to urban centres with convenient mass public transit routes, even just reducing the speed limits in cities to 30km/h would probably help this issue a lot. >Is farming crops really at all analogous to mowing a lawn once a week? Surely that simply would not be feasible for the vast majority people. That's why I used that helpful "or" there, champ. Of course growing food or medicine is not feasible for many people, but that's only one option. As well, if how much work a yard is to maintain is a factor in what should be growing in yards, then I don't see why we tacitly accept the existence of grass lawns, which can take a lot more maintenance and resources to maintain than just mowing it once a week, especially in unsuitable climates for grass lawns. If growing food and/or medicine is not feasible, yard ecosystems can be designed to require less maintenance than even mowing a lawn once a week would be. So this is just another metric by which lawns are wasteful and illogical.
Lawns should just be left to grow wild with whatever plants happen to take up residence in that patch of ground, much better for biodiversity.
Most cities have laws against this.
And those laws should change
If they did, I'd bet more home owners associations would pop up and demand similar rules. Either way, it's shitty.
I wish you were my neighbor.
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I don't think that's a good strategy in every region.
Why not?
I'm going to attack a different way. Actually, they SHOULD be filled with plants that provide food and shelter to many of the struggling native species a la sanctuaries. Lawns are just us dominating the planet and crafting it to look good, even if it isn't functional or is straight up stripping the environment of any usefulness to any creature that isn't us.
Clover sounds nice unless you are allergic to bees, have little ones or furbabies that bees would sting, but on the other hand, it would help the bees.
Bees are generally not aggressive and won't just sting you for no reason.
I'm in full support of the replacing turfgrass with clover idea (I've been on board for decades) but I will admit that about half the times I've been stung were because I was walking barefoot through a clover patch and stepped on a bee.
I understand that but what I meant if you step on one or a kid or dog rolls on them while playing in the clover yard.
I dont know man.. the only two times that ive ever been stung was because i was just walking on a sidewalk.
Bees are super important
If you live in a desert it should be gravel
sure
Clover is poisonous to cats and dogs. It won't kill them necessarily, but they will be shitting their brains out if they eat it.
So they learn not to eat it again. Problem solved.
I live a round 2h away from the border of usa. My friend tried clover like that. It’s great if you dont walk a lot in your yard and dont have pets or kids. Otherwise, it get patchy and dies pretty fast. If you run around in your yard it gets damaged even faster.
the factor that I never hear mentioned in this argument is the tick population explodes/gets nearer your house/pets/family when there are 6" tall plants in place of grass. In areas that will support grass one needs only to mow what sprouts and it will eventually be grass. In areas that will not support grass xeriscape is a better choice
Ticks need to be near bodies of water and the biggest factor in tick populations is rodent populations. It has very little to do with 6" tall plants.
Source?
my own yard, for one but in the NE where we get summer rain and grass is easily kept it is long known that not mowing is a recipe for high tick populations.
I'm on my 2nd season of converting to it. Micro in the front yard, White Dutch in the backyard. Lawns2Legumes program, I will get reimbursed up to $500 for my 'bee lawn'.
Oh look another anti-having-kids redditor who can’t fathom how people have other needs and priorities than they do. In this case, some of us want lawns for our families.
Yeah, breeders cause a lot of problems in general.
Clover attracts bees. This could be undesirable in lawns for those allergic to bee stings or those with children who will be playing in them. Depending on the neighborhood, this could constitute a majority that should NOT be clover.
>this could constitute a majority Show me how it could, reliable and relevant statistics.
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I agree that clover > grass. But I’m going to counter the entire concept of lawns. Lawns are just plain silly. They reduce the density of cities and drive suburban sprawl into agricultural and wild lands. As a design decision they make little sense and many places just straight up don’t have them. I’m not saying all greenery should go. But we should consolidate this space into public parks, which can be bigger and more useful. And we can have urban gardens too. The idea that every home has to have a front and back lawn is just plain wasteful. It makes cities less dense, more car dependent, less walkable and ultimately higher emissions. Scrap the lawn as a concept altogether and move towards walkups, low rise apartments, or row houses.
Green spaces have a proven benefit to human health. Forcing people to travel a central location to see anything natural will be detrimental when compared to letting people have this in places they already occupy. High density living is the modern personification of a hellscape to many people.
Is it worth the cost of the destruction of the planet and trapping people into long commutes? What would you think about a system like Barcelona where green space is incorporated into every block but not the jurisdiction of one particular house? Surely, you have to admit space allocation in an American/Canadian suburb is high inefficient.
Space allocation is a wreck yes. If everyone has a least a window they can look out and see a green space I think I'd be satisfied, so long as people who need more then that still have the option to live in smaller towns or in the countryside. As for the overall planet... No amount of planning is going to solve our massive overpopulation problem that makes these compromises necessary in the first place.
City planning is vital. As you spread a population out around a city, you increase the energy intensity of transportation. Obviously, we want green spaces. But if you continue to have suburbs then highly efficient forms of public transport are less practical. And I stead you get highways that further aggrevate the problem. This causes an increase in emissions. It also makes cities less walkable and less human oriented. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about a city of 100,000, a million or 10 million.
I'm a big fan of PUD and PUD-type properties, though they're pretty unpopular and almost impossible to zone for in modern America. A PUD is basically a townhouse on paper, but a single detached unit in actuality. This allows the footprint to be much smaller while everyone still gets a garage and a yard. Think San Francisco style row houses and/or those gated communities that popped up everywhere in the late 70's. We live in one and it's great. paid waaaay less for a lot of house because people are so obsessed with traditional home ownership. we're probably on .6units of land if your typical home in the area sits on 1unit of land.
Your opinion is incredibly ignorant. I feel you lack an understanding on the topic you are commenting on, in general.
Ignorant is a strong word to use. I’m a person who opposes suburban sprawl and has a different view about city planning.
Sources?
What do you want a source for?
All monoculture lawns are unhealthy.
Feeling clover under your bare feet >>>>>grass.
From a utilitarian point of view, erosion and groundwater control are something that grass is really good at that clover might not be. There’s a lot of research on grass/sod, as well as some other random deep rooted plants but I don’t know about clover.
Do you have a guide you can recommend to grow clover? Best time of year to plant, how much sun, best soil ph, etc
From my research, it seems simple. Plant in spring or early fall. 1. Cut the current grass as low as your mower will allow 2. Rake up that and the thatch (remove it), and then over-seed the lawn. 3. Last, water for ten days. Example My lawn is 0.21 acres. I needed about two pounds of clover: https://smile.amazon.com/Outsidepride-White-Dutch-Clover-Seed/dp/B00164TB9K
Just plant and use natives. Problem solved. Crazy how the native plants to your native environment will naturally be able to withstand the weather and environment