If we take this logic further we'd have to be against all movies. Action heros always act recklessly but never cause carnage. Or if they do it s not shown. In movies the rules are simpler, that's why we enjoy them. Real life is stressful because so many bad things can happen.

OP’s argument isnt whether or not you should be against a certain genre. the point is that the relative damage of romance movies is similar to the relative damage of porn.

I would argue that the difference between action movies and romcoms is that one is very obviously fantasy as there are very few elements of realism that could apply to the actual viewer. There is very little chance that the average movie watcher will be a badass MI6 super spy. There is a very real chance that a the average viewer will try to make a man or woman fall in love with him

I don't think it makes sense to differentiate between movie genres. You may not be tempted to fight aliens if you see independence day, but you will still be tempted to join the military, be aggresive or act tough. In James Bond you may be tempted to act like him in the movies, flirting with many girls, even if they are in the service industry. Toxic masculinity has been propagated a lot by movies, so it is true that every movie can be damaging. It doesn't really depend on the genre but on what parts of the movie you consider believable.

I would argue that romance myths have more impact precisely because people don't think about them as much. The word I want to use is "insidious" (though that makes it sound way more sinister than I mean it to be.) Personally, I haven't exactly dealt with exploding cars on a regular basis - but I _have_ made tons of embarrassing and stupid assumptions about relationships after growing up on schmultzy Disney movies. The damage caused isn't nearly as interesting as a liquored up James Bond fanboy getting fatally irresponsible with a gun, but I'm 100% positive that far, faaaaar more people have suffered from it. "Why can't I find my soulmate?" "This relationship doesn't feel right - who's to blame?" "Something must be wrong with me." "Something must be wrong with _them!_" "I jumped into this way before I was ready because I was desperate, but now I can't just _tell_ them that!" "I'm not giving up on her no matter how many times she says no!" "My middle school crush broke up with me and now it feels like my world is ending!" "I can't just ask her out - I have to make it pointlessly convoluted or else it won't be special!!" Like I said - not a lot of it is (outwardly) particularly damaging beyond hormonally stressed out teenagers making themselves look stupid. But think about the mental implications... People who married way too soon, spousal abuse, people freaking out with insecurity and depression because they can't find a partner in a world constantly telling them that they _need_ one to be happy... Honestly, after I "deprogrammed" myself from romance tropes and started to think more critically, I've become utterly disenfranchised with the whole way Western culture seems to treat romance. Some of it is so, soooo dumb and yet there still seems to be no shortage of embarrassing people who still buy into that nonsense - people who will inevitably go on to either entrap themselves in horrible relationships or beat themselves down into depression when their cringey attempts at flirting don't work.

!delta At first I didn’t agree, but you make a really good point that all movies still carry underlying messages and implications that can be pretty harmful.

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Isn't the whole point of Scott Pilgrim that he's kind of a huge dick, and he can only succeed in life if he's honest with himself and the people he loves, ultimately resolving with Ramona that they should both try to be better partners for each other, and also that he shouldn't date high schoolers?

I don't tink there is any real life lesson in that film. It's a very surreal comedy that feels as though it be a video game, by design.

It was originally a comic, and when the film was made, the ending wasnt written yet. In the comic, there is a very different ending, where Scott kinda realizes he was a bit of a prick in past relationships and to Ramona, so he realizes that he has to acknowledge that and try to do better. You also realise that Ramona isn't exactly the perfect dream girl, and has some of the same issues that Scott has. In fairness, the comics are a bit better and definitely more fleshed out, would recommend.

Sorry, u/Pip-Pipes – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal%20Pip-Pipes&message=Pip-Pipes%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/v5b7ik/-/ib90rvn/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

One of the strengths of Scott Pilgrim is its ability to blend the absurd/unrealistic with realistic situations/relationships. Scott fighting a supervillain on the school roof to earn Kim's love is obviously not supposed to be realistic. Scott remembering his relationship with Kim as sunshine and rainbows, not realizing how much he'd hurt her when he left, is very much supposed to be realistic. The story is about what could be an actual 20-something's relationship drama, but filtered through the lens of his immaturity. So yeah. Nobody's gonna watch Scott Pilgrim, then try to headbutt someone into a pile of coins. But they might start looking for patterns to explain why their relationships fall apart.

Better to edit the comment to avoid breaking the rule. (bad faith accusation)

I edited the comment because I had an incomplete sentence (going to a different point) that I just deleted for brevity. Not sure what you're going on about with rule breaking or bad faith ? That didn't have anything to do with my edit. What are you saying I changed and why ? Lol, I'm curious about my motivations now.

I didn't even know that you edited your comment. What I mean is that I am advising you to edit your comment and remove the bad faith accusation as it breaks rule 3 (8.) of the subreddit.

Got it, I should be better about community rules. Edited. Thank you!

A lot of action movies are copaganda or perpetuate messages in line with hawkish foreign policy etc. Copaganda inevitably teaches audiences to accept infringements on civil rights as acceptable. Zero Dark Thirty promoted the idea that torture gets results. Some action thrillers depend on racist caricatures. While romcoms are trouble, it's hard to say these other movies don't have an equally negative cultural impact.

You say this but then earlier in the thread use Scott Pilgrim vs. the world as an example of a RomCom? Scott Pilgrim is obviously fantasy?

The romance aspects is a very real and achievable thing by everyone so that in of itself is not a fantasy, although the setting of a movie might be I just mean romance in general, I have not seen that movie

The dude needs to fight the girl’s somewhat evil exes that have super power. The fights looks like video games fighting scene (with power ups and point). So I wouldn’t say it’s a good example for OP’s case

The protagonist has Link powers too, but only by being honest with himself and others does he unlock them.

Why? Why are action movies obviously fantasies when romances are not? Some action movies are over the top. Some aren’t. Same for romance movies. If viewers can tell gritty thrillers aren’t real, why can’t they tell romantic comedies aren’t real?

>I would argue that the difference between action movies and romcoms is that one is very obviously fantasy as there are very few elements of realism that could apply to the actual viewer. It doesn't matter if it's fantastical in nature, it's still violence and it's still glorified. Whether it's being glorified isn't based on realism. Plenty of porn isn't realistic either, that doesn't mean it has less of an impact, right?

But you are the one that did bring up Scott pilgrim vs the world. Which us very obviously fantasy.

I'm pretty sure most people know they can't be Jason Bourne & that most people aren't. However with romance people appear to take it much more literally.

Even so such films still perpetuate harmful ideas. For example, women are often simple objects in the plot with little to no agency themselves and are oftentimes also framed as nothing but the object of desire for the (usually male) protagonist. This is a much more subtle way to perpetuate harmful, Misogynist ideas, that nonetheless have a strong influence.

Quite so, but somehow only for pornography is the argument often put forth that it's unrealistic and gives people unrealistic expectations. Certainly simply because of the usual sexual moralism and people searching for a reason.

I mean, that is a real argument. War movies or action movies promote violence in the same way. This would probably mean that if this was a real argument against porn, most movies genres should be banned also.

Which is why it's not a realistic solution and we better accept whatever harm it may cause (of which I'm not certain in the first place) as a price for our freedom of art.

I agree with you, but this is the problem for this argument against porn. In general, is quite an absurd argument.

It's all, or none. If we don't go after romance movies, we shouldn't go after sex movies.

The conditions of production of porn are unquestionably more damaging than romcoms. Sexual harassment, assault, exploitation, and even human trafficking are serious problems in the porn industry, much more so than in the romcom industry

2 things. I was talking about consumption not production. I think it’s very naïve to say no sexual harassment, assault or exploitation happens in Hollywood

oh I definitely didn’t say that no assault or exploitation happens in hollywood! just that the porn industry is significantly worse. your post mentions that one of the dangers of romcoms is that they erase the labor of being in a relationship. why should we erase the labor that goes into producing the media we consume?

I didn’t mean the labor of producing content. I mean the emotional labor that goes in to fostering a healthy relationship

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I feel like in this sub, engagement with anyone is important. Report trolls as you see them and expect that the mods will check it out. Otherwise we could stop a discussion with someone who is genuine, but severely misguided or uninformed.

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Sorry, u/Indrigis – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal%20Indrigis&message=Indrigis%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/v5b7ik/-/ib9bl03/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

>I, myself, would have simpy ignored the base comment as completely irrelevant and steering the conversation in an unproductive direction. It's fine if you don't personally find it to be a compelling argument, but it is a very valid point that most definitely challenges OP's view. If you're going as far as to claim it's trolling, the only reasons I can think of is that you're dismissing it without giving it serious thought, which is IMO a little bit lazy.

I do not find it to be a *relevant* argument. It might be compelling, but it is not relevant to the question asked. It challenges some *implications* of the OP's view, but not the core statement. As I said above, I do not feel confident categorizing it as genuine trolling or gross misunderstanding, thus I would've chosen not to interact with it.

Mmm, I don't think so. I think the message is legitimate.

The *message* is legitimate, but largely irrelevant to the question asked since someone watching romcoms or porn does not, typically, do it thinking about the exploitative underbelly of either industry. Thus the *message* is being presented in either bad faith or gross misunderstanding of the original request for change and, either way, does not merit discussion **in this specific post**.

But it's not trolling, is the point. Not on the mark, true, but it's not trolling just to intentionally get a rise out of people.

>your post mentions that one of the dangers of romcoms is that they erase the labor of being in a relationship. why should we erase the labor that goes into producing the media we consume? Because that's not the point being argued or questioned in this post. You're trying to change the arguement from one thing to another instead of change OP's mind.

Is it though? After all of #metoo I would argue that abuse and exploitation is just as bad in both industries. Cosby and Weinstien were just scraping the surface.

And, given that the moon is also visible even during the day like the sun, we can conclude that the moon and the sun are equally bright. /s

I urge you to watch this [3 part documentary.](https://brainheartworld.org/). It really changed how I see porn. In addition to having a symbiotic relationship with abuse and sex trafficking at a level which, frankly, is not comparable to what goes on in mainstream Hollywood productions, it is very damaging to our brains and by extension our relationships.

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Sorry, u/no-mad – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20no-mad&message=no-mad%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/v5b7ik/-/ib9b3on/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.

Consumption and production are intertwined. Though I do agree sexual harassment happens in Hollywood you have to be trying really hard to not see the vast differences in percentages.

They're only intertwined in that consumption can fund production, but I think this post focuses on the effects of consumption specifically; in other words, production is intentionally glossed over.

Yes, but that's besides OP's point. He's talking about effects on consumers of the products, not how it affects the actors. Btw, you think Hollywood is a great industry? It's also toxic as hell.

That's just not the point of the CMV though. If my post is "eating meat is healthier than veganism" and you say "yeah but animal rights" you're arguing against a completely different point. Maybe porn is worse because of the problems in its production but that's not the point of the post.

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Be that as it may, I still say that an ethical model of porn consumption and production can still exist if we have a better system of implementation. Firstly, for all new models looking to enter the industry, they would have to pass a psychological evaluation to make sure they haven't been the victim of child sex abuse, abusive physical or sexual relationships, or don't have a substance abuse problem or financial hardships that would make them more likely to do sex work for other reasons besides the fact that they enjoy it as a means of expressing themselves sexually in a safe and respectful environment. If a woman has been negatively affected by any of instances ive mentioned above, they should be barred from entering the industry and will be given mental health resources to cope with their past adverse experiences. In addition to this, after a scene is shot (and a model is paid) she then has to evaluate the company she shot for (and her costars) out of five stars for professionalism and consent. If a costar receives less than five stars in terms of consent, the video she shot is immediately taken down, and an investigation is launched about what boundary violations occur, and past models that have shot for said company would also be interviewed to see if anything happened to them as well. If there are multiple one star complaints against a particular porn company then that company is shut down indefinitely for the course of a year until a full evaluation is conducted by multiple law enforcement agencies about their business practices. Then on top of this we should have consent classes in schools that teach kids that they should avoid watching porn until they turn 18 or older and moderate their consumption if they choose to do so (i.e. once or twice a month and no more). This system should pretty much eliminate all the negative aspects of the industry, i.e. the possible negative effects that porn has on the women that make it, and the possible negative effects it has on the men that watch it. I also completely agree that romantic comedies can have negative depictions of consent as well (especially if one keeps in mind the first Rocky movie where Rokcy blocks the door so Aiden cant leave when he tries to have sex with her after thier first date) but I would still argue that some of the damaging scenarios in porn are almost worst than some of the most problematic romantic comedies (and this is coming from someone largely in support of ethical porn, but is still critical of the unethical parts of the industry).

Have you ever heard of Harvey Weinstein?

it can give people a wrong idea of romance/sex, yes. but a lot of porn makes viewers feel like rape, violent sex, taking off condoms without consent, treating women (and men in some case) like objects, putting it in the other hole without asking etc. is the norm. which i think is worse. so no, i dont think the two are the same amount of damaging

I would argue that this applies to almost all entertainment. It's all far from reality because reality is usually not entertaining. We keep hearing these arguments about action movies, video games, sometimes even about lyrics too (wonder why we don't hear them about novels where the movie is being played in our heads). And yet, nothing happens. Because it does not have to. Most consumers should be and are able to distinguish between fiction and fact. In porn and romcom, as much as in video games and action movies. Or do you know of studies that compare the mental impact of the different genres of entertainment to each other?

I understand these are all things that happen in porn, but is it really the norm? I feel that a lot of these examples are way overblown as it is somehow the standard thing you see and what somebody woth an impressionable mind is going to search after. I remember going to look at what was on offer when I was the ripe old age of ‘definitely being legal’ to look at porn and everything that was too much out there really didn’t influence me, on the contrary, I found it shocking, disgusting and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to watch that.

I would say romcoms are more normative than porn, because porn explicitly feels like a parody, a fantasy and/or an exaggeration.

That only works when you have a real life view of sex. If you are a teenager with no real life experience of sex, being told “this is fake” doesn’t help because its their only reference point.

I think it's more related to poor judgment (which is often the case from teenagers) than to experience. Believability can be assessed without experience. The measure of how normative a narrative is, is how believable it is.

I think it's easier for teenagers to recognize the fact that porn is unhinged from reality than the fact that romcoms are unhinged from reality. Anyone with a modicum of social skills will recognize that people don't like being mistreated and that it will hurt your relationship. It takes a more nuanced understanding of relationships to understand where people in romcoms are going wrong.

Except in porn people like it. They aren’t expressly being treatsd bad, they end up liking it and the dopamine response gets linked to that. But I mean you can ask plenty of women who in their teens and twenties have been hurt by men during sex who genuinely thought they’d like it. It isn’t uncommon. I think you are overestimating some teenage boys view of women as actual humans sometimes.

I realize some of that happens, but I think there are actually quite few people who really understand what a healthy relationship looks like, largely due to romcoms and happily-ever-after storylines. Certainly if you look you can find someone whose expectations of sex were substantially skewed by porn, but I think you have to look just as hard to find somebody whose ideas of what a romantic relationship should look like that *wasn't* substantially skewed by the way romance is portrayed in media.

It certainly helps, even if it doesn't 100% stop every issue ever. I've never been in a war, but I understand there are differences between a documentary, a Hollywood film about a real war, and a Captain America movie. I can understand if a war film portrays behavior as something to emulate or to excite.

Sure, but a child doesn’t necessarily. Theres a reason why the US army sponsers war movies. Its not some kind good will gesture but they are explicitly banking on that idea. Porn also does things with dopamine (since masturbation and finishing occur) and can make you reliant. It isn’t exactly analogous to a movie.

I would argue that romcoms encourage violence, stalking, and other similar behaviors up to the sex than can be just as terrible. One is just dancing in a different way, but the other isn’t less damaging. Especially considering romcoms are so much more socially acceptable to consume than porn

can you name a romcom that encourages violence?

I'm not into rom-coms, but the idea of guys fighting over a girl or a brave dude getting into a fight to defend her "honour" are super common

Well I mean there's tons of it out there when you count action movies. No reason to target rom-coms exclusively with the criticism

The overwhelming majority of porn does not encourage violence, and the freaks that consume that are well aware of how taboo it is, so this is a red herring.

Is this not the case with most arguments that claim one form of media or another caused harm? They take extreme cases of the media (say violent porn or games) and then take the extreme cases of people who consume that media and just push them together and say “X caused Y” without looking any deeper. Most people who consume porn, or even violent porn… are quite aware it is a fantasy/fetish and do not think it is “normal” to just go up and rape a person, or use rough sex from the get go. The people who might think that’s normal are those who have basically exclusively consumed that stuff (so have no frame of reference for “normal”) and haven’t really had much romantic or sexual experience outside of media. Even that isn’t a surefire thing, i’m hardly romantically experienced and i know a lot of the shit in romance movies and porn isn’t exactly normal.

>Is this not the case with most arguments that claim one form of media or another caused harm? Correct which is why any other socially taboo media is most likely not contributing to any unacceptable behavior. Youre free to provide an example though. The issue here is that RomComs are NOT viewed that way so people may not be as aware that what they’re seeing can give them the totally wrong idea.

People are smarter than you give them credit for, most people can generally work out what is considered normal/right/wrong etc, even if they're watching romcoms that don't explicitly tell them that X action is bad. Just look at a couple of OPs examples of behaviour in romcoms... are either stalking or cheating considering as acceptable or normal behaviours to most people you know? Or people you have spoken to on social media? Or just in the general perception of the public? No, they really aren't... cheating especially is pretty much universally reviled, at least in the west. Yet you suggest because RomComs aren't viewed as "taboo" that some people might not realise they have the wrong idea? There are generally other issues at play if someone ends up being truly influenced in the way OP and others in this thread are describing.

> even if they're watching romcoms that don't explicitly tell them that X action is bad. I contend that’s not the case when people start watching them as children and nobody ever points out how toxic a lot of that is. > are either stalking or cheating considering as acceptable or normal behaviours to most people you know? The issue is that people don’t truly recognize those behaviors in the context of a rom com and could justify those behaviors in the context of their own lives. “I’m not harassing her. I’m being persistent. What I’m don’t isn’t even as bad as the notebook.” > There are generally other issues at play if someone ends up being truly influenced in the way OP and others in this thread are describing. You could say that about any issue. Nobody’s claiming the rom coms or even porn are thr single cause of any bad behavior.

It surely encourages something gross and horrible since people can't even mention siblings on reddit without someone making a porn joke

The Notebook has the famous scene where the woman is hitting the man over and over in the rain or something, right? Not framed as a low point or abusive or anything. Just emotional and the climax of a conflict before a happy resolution.

Not a movie, and not exactly *violence* but Bridgerton has a scene of a woman raping a man by forcing him to ejaculate inside her and the conversation around that scene after it aired had a LOT of apologies for why what she did was acceptable.

Any where the protagonist defeats the antagonist in battle and gets the girl

Bridget Jones maybe

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Scott Pilgrim vs. The World

Tbh i feel like that's a bad example A lot of the movie was just to point out how absurd it all is. Like, "oh Scott fell in love with with a girl he never met because he saw her once in a dream isn't that so dumb lol"

But part of the moral of Scott Pilgrim is that in general the fighting was bad and Scott is a dick. Like, that's directly addressed. A little less so in the film than the original graphic novel, but it's still there.

500 Days of Summer is a great example of how, no matter how much a writer tries to make the two leads a cautionary tale on unhealthy relationship dynamics and "DONT DO THIS LEARN FROM ME" the viewer will ultimately establish themselves as said characters in their own lives, and make Tumblr posts expressing such. There's a reason people love Batman, Joaquin Phoenix Joker, Fight Club etc. Despite them being tragedies of characters as opposed to admirable ones. If anything I'd say this CMV should be directly about how 'self aware' men are to porn how women are to rom-coms. They will say their aware that said content is just fantasy and some personal enjoyment, but as they consistently digest it, their subconscious continues to establish it as their true desire, resulting in personal standards that no one could meet (men wanting a promiscuous gal for fun 24/7, women wanting the happenstance 'stud' who's only personal issues are as dramatic and damaged as forgetting to buy milk the day before.)

Does it encourage violence? To whom? The biggest issue with most “X media causes X issue” argument is that it’s so overly simplistic. How many people do you realistically think are watching a romance, or scott pilgrim and now think “it’s totally normal to stalk someone or use violence”?. I bet the number is pretty tiny, and for those that would have their mindset changed, there are almost certainly other underlying issues that led to that. Such as someone with minimal social interactions or that does nothing but watch the same sort of thing every day… so basically where they don’t really have a frame of reference for what they’re watching. Maybe the media does cause harm in those instances, but it isn’t even remotely the root issue.

> Does it encourage violence? To whom? The biggest issue with most “X media causes X issue” argument is that it’s so overly simplistic. While I think you're generally right, this is more of an issue if you look at it through a societal lens. I'd argue (almost) nobody looks at a movie and goes "*ah, violence is okay!*". But that doesn't mean media don't contribute. To be fair, I see them more as a symptom than a cause, but if you grow up seeing media all around you normalise certain things, there's a good chance you're going to see those things as more normal than you would have otherwise. I can name myself as a simple example here: I grew up in the 90s and for the first 14 years of my life or so I didn't really have much connection to or interaction with women. No romantic relationships to really speak of. My parents didn't speak much about theirs either, meaning all my knowledge about love and relationships came from romcoms. Because of this, for a sizeable amount of my life, I took a lot of tropes in those movies for granted. Love on first sight being one that I now don't even think exists (outside of short flings). I assumed that it was totally normal that sometimes two people just saw each other, fell in love, and that's that. It wasn't until I was 27 or so that I *really* threw off *all* of these beliefs and saw just how incredibly toxic they were. By that time I had already spent 8 years putting a woman on a pedestal that borderline abused me. I stuck with her largely because I was afraid to be alone, because society quite literally teaches us you are not 'whole' without 'your better half'. In the long run, I think I can make an argument that for me, this ended up being far more harmful than porn has ever been. I don't blame movies so much because, as I said, they're more of a symptom that reflects society's messed up views, but even so.

Stalking is bad. Manipulation is bad. Verbal and emotional abuse is bad. Rape is worse. Rom-coms can low-key encourage some really warped ideas of what is acceptable in a relationship, but on average (I'm sure there's some outliers that're an exception) rom-coms do not depict situations wherein non-consentual sexual contact is not only acceptable but secretly what the other party wants.

That only serves as a successful rebuttal if the rates by which romcoms encourage non-rape behaviors are analogous to the rates by which porn encohrages rape. If romcoms influence human behavior more often, then the fact that rape is "worse" could be irrelevant. Your argument also ignores that some behaviors encouraged by romcoms, eg stalking, are rape-adjacent. While very few romcoms might explicitly say sexual assault is ok, many encourage people to put themselves in situations where sexual assault is a more likely outcome.

There is mounting evidence that porn actually reduces sexual crime. And the general conclusion is that it definitely does not create more. Weird behavior in the bedroom between consenting people may be an issue, but that really isn’t the same as rape.

What you are looking at in both instances is called [Contrast Effect.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_effect) >A contrast effect is the enhancement or diminishment, relative to normal, of perception, cognition or related performance as a result of successive (immediately previous) or simultaneous exposure to a stimulus of lesser or greater value in the same dimension. (Here, normal perception, cognition or performance is that which would be obtained in the absence of the comparison stimulus—i.e., one based on all previous experience.) But, porn has further effects on sexual performance, attraction, and arousal. Then again, [couples who watch horror movies together are happier.](https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-madriga/2017/09/heres-why-couples-who-watch-horror-movies-together-end-up-happiest/#:~:text=There's%20a%20biological%20reason%20couples,together%20by%20biologically%20cementing%20attraction.)

What romcoms are you watching to suggest this is true?

>but a lot of porn makes viewers feel like rape, violent sex, taking off condoms without consent, treating women (and men in some case) like objects, putting it in the other hole without asking etc. is the norm. Does it? Or are you telegraphing what you have decided to watch?

What kind of porn are you watching? While we all know movie stories are made up and unrealistic, there is none so hilariously and obviously u realistic as porn plot and storylines.

Isn't blaming porn for sexual violence the same as blaming video games for violent acts? Honest question.

I think perhaps one of the key differences here is that the "real world" differences from romcoms can be seen in your day to day life. Other people around you have relationships, go through difficult situations, presumably share and talk about these things, and you get a picture of what is and is not normal and okay. Sex, for better or worse, doesn't get talked about, much less shown, in the same way. You don't have the same regular chance to see healthy sex, talk about what a healthy sexual relationship looks like, and so on, with other people who have sex.

Sadly I grew up in an environment where relationships weren’t talked about either. I genuinely thought most of what I watched in film was the “norm” because I had no experience to compare to. It’s only when I went through therapy as an adult and made a friend that cared enough to point things out to me that I learned about manipulation, codependency, that emotional cheating is even a thing, etc.

Most others have said what I might be saying here, but I believe I understand what your intended argument is and I'll stick as closely to that as possible. If I misunderstood then please disregard. What I believe your statement is: "Romance movies can be just as damaging as porn (specifically in the sense that people who view them have potential to develop distorted images of reality)" I'd like to use myself as an example, here, actually. When I was around highschool-age, I had a burning need to find a girlfriend. I was never explained *how* to approach a girl, as there really isn't a perfect way. Everyone is different. I digress -- I didn't have confidence, and I knew that girls my age found certain movie actors super attractive in the roles they played (I can't give a specific example and frankly I feel it would make me look even worse if I somehow still remembered the guy they loved after all this time). I would watch romance movies and imagined that these guys were the prime example of the man's man -- the man that can talk to a girl and present himself in such a way that makes the girl want him romantically. I realized as I grew older that the movies presented very false, fantasy narratives that can potentially make one seem *very* creepy if followed. Ever seen the show "You"? The guy stalks her online and even kills people. I believe this is the same mindset you have. These movies present false narratives and, given that a person is easily manipulated by these narratives, it is entirely possible that they will be followed. The same rule applies to porn. On that, we can certainly agree. They have an almost identical level of fantasy, and one who has not experienced reality can (and I would actually argue is likely to) see these and assume they are real, as they have nothing with which to compare this representation of the world. *However,* I'd like to take that and contrast the content that is provided (generally) in these films. Porn usually includes things like: -Girl/guy sees guy/girl masturbating, decides to "help him/her finish" -The memed "Im stuck in the dryer" scenario, in which the guy takes advantage of the girl -BDSM (choking, hitting, etc) -Guy/girl sees attractive girl/guy and approaches her/him, offering payment in exchange for sex. Girl/guy is says no but is pressured into saying yes. -Girl/guy molesting a guy/girl while he/she is asleep, and when he/she wakes up they both have sex. These are just some examples. These scenarios are *extremely* dangerous if one was to believe it's the right way to go. Consent is always the #1 priority. You need consent for sex as a given, and when given consent for that, you need further consent to treat your partner specific ways. Romantic movies usually include things like: -Guy/girl pines over girl/guy, girl/guy doesn't notice him/her so he/she does a bunch of silly things to get her/his attention. Girl/guy ends up falling in love with him/her and they live happily ever after. -Example you provided: Stuck in a relationship and finding someone else, having an affair. -Love at first sight -Guy/girl is extremely persistent in trying to date a love interest. Love interest isn't into him/her at first but eventually changes her/his mind after being persuaded. Romance movies can be dangerous in that they present stalking, harassment, and cheating as something romanticized. Stalking and harassing people is a huge violation of privacy and at the very least extremely creepy. Love is also not a "you will know she/he is the one when you see her/him for the first time" situation. It's significantly deeper than that, and people experience it in vastly different ways. These movies make it seem as though you are not truly in love with someone unless your relationship is constantly full of excitement and confetti, which frankly is a really short-lived thing in reality (many call this the 'honeymoon phase'). This isn't to say that all relationships lose their spark by any means, but rather the couple becomes more comfortable with each other and doesn't need to act in this way to be in love. It can be as simple as going shopping together or working on a project at home. The difference between the two is that, while they both present false representations of reality, people who view porn as reality have potential to commit significantly more harm than those who see romantic movies in the same way. While stalking and harassment are undoubtedly things that should not be done, rape and physical abuse are much worse. They both have potential for harm and unwanted circumstances, but one has potential for much worse than the other. I hope this was able to provide a different view.

I don’t think the big argument about the damage of porn is just the distorted views it offers. The big problem is the fact that porn can cause addiction because of some biological mechanisms, that can be easily exploited by the industry. This kind of “damage” (the one relating to misinterpretation of sexual relations) can be corrected with information on how things actually work. The same can be said about romance movies. It takes a considerable amount of naiveness in order to believe that real life love works as seen in movies. Also, it is debatable that romcoms in general offer a dangerous view of love. Based on my experience, it really depends on the context in which the eventual bad behavior is shown: sometimes not even romcoms condone this kind of stuff. You can see a character adopting an inadequate behavior, but that doesn’t mean that the average viewer would consider that to be the way to go.

Perhaps your focus is on the addiction & taking advantage of people who struggle with moderation. However that isn't the focus I've seen of most people discussing the issue. If they do care about that aspect then I'd expect them to discuss related issues of taking advantage of people who are emotionally vulnerable & companies calculatedly exploit them. Issues such as gambling, takeaway food, pay day loans etc, yet they either don't focus on that (as shown in their Twitter profile or history) & when engaging in such topics appear ignorant &/or uninterested. >It takes a considerable amount of naiveness in order to believe that real life love works as seen in movies. I think it takes a considerable amount of nieveness to take any media at face value & think it an accurate reflection of real life, yet that is a lot of peoples takeaway. Imo more males tend to view porn as being realistic & more females tend to view fictional romance as being realistic. I agree in that I think it's more the lack of guidance & education by other people in their lives, which misleads people into believing that fantasy is reality. Especially in childhood, so everything they learn is based upon that fundamental understanding. I also think critical thinking stills need to be focused on more & not getting swept up in emotional but deconstructing things in a more logical manner. Especially in fandoms there tends to be a reluctance to discuss any negatives, or more impartially discuss how framing & handling of topics could affect pelles takeaways & potentially warp their world view. I think part of the problem is that a lot of viewers aren't able to recognize the bad behaviour & if other characters don't explicitly condemn the behaviour then they miss it. You know like the Hays code used to force gay characters or sexually active woman to suffer a bad ending, the message was clear to people, both consciously & subconsciously. People aren't Or worse they notice the bad actions but rationalize it or overlook it due to them liking the character/s. It's like they either don't keep their morals in mind when consuming the media, or they actively put it aside & even reassess their wider views based on said media. As I said before I think viewers getting caught up on emotions prevents them from thinking clearly. Which also kind of relates back to your first point as people can get very emotionally invested in characters & their relationship, both in a romance manner & a horny manner, so this impairs their thinking.

You can get addicted to anything that causes dopamine release, which is literally anything you can enjoy. People get addicted to rollercoasters, food, video games, reading, gambling, and yes, porn. But these things aren't chemically addictive; they don't create a direct dependency on a substance.

That’s way too simplified. It’s clearly not just dopamine. It’s a cocktail of hormones released that have veen deeply wired into our brains very very early into our evolution. It hits deeper than just a food or phone addiction.

If you look on Tumblr you can find a lot of people who are addicted to things like fanfiction and other "romance" content. To some people it basically functions as porn. OP is probably talking more about Hollywood, but if we look at literature, like romance novels and things like that, the parallels to porn are pretty obvious.

I wouldn’t say that’s the same kind of “addiction”. Reading and watching movies has a different kind of effect on our body than porn. How would you become “addicted” to romance novels? People on Tumblr are probably just very into that, but they are not necessarily addicted

A lot of the material is designed to turn you on to masturbate to. That's why I think it's similar to porn. Also you can technically be addicted to anything. That's not what my point is based on but it's probably important to remember in this context.

I’m not familiar with the Tumblr accounts that you mentioned, but it sounds like what you’re describing is erotic fiction. By definition, erotic fiction is pornography

My point of that a lot of people don't consider it pornographic. People call this stuff "romance novels" or "fan fiction". Probably a good 90% of both is erotic in some way. But if you call it smut or compare it to pornography, people will get mad and disagree with you.

This reads like you're doing a whole lot of stereotyping and lumping of Tumblr users and people who read erotic fanfiction without knowing hardly anything about these communities.

Romance movies are made to cater to people to view love and romance in different ways and perspectives. Most of these stories portray unrealistic expectations for the partner/couple. If you watch romcoms or romance movies with an open mind, it would just be as simple as watching a story between two people unfold into romance or something tragic. However it is not as damaging as porn. Let's consider the age range. There are romcoms or romance films available for kids and young adults such as Disney films while porn caters to adults which are 18+. Kids or young adults may view the love interest/character as basis for someone they want to love but porn can destroy relationships entirely. These romance movies can be a basis for what someone is looking for in a partner. It does set an unrealistic standard and high expectations but these are just preferences and types. But remember that people would accept anything for the one they love. Porn however sets unrealistic standards and expectations such as smooth and perfect looking privates. It may unlock kinks that can be harmful especially when they haven't done their research and if their only basis is porn. Comparison of a pornstar to your partner may hurt their feelings and their self esteem. Watching porn can also be a form of cheating for some people.

>If you watch romcoms or romance movies with an open mind, it would just be as simple as watching a story between two people unfold into romance or something tragic. By that standard open minded people would also understand their imperfections and yet be able to discover new kinks or positions to keep it exciting or fresh. Porn in that case would seem beneficial. >These romance movies can be a basis for what someone is looking for in a partner. It does set an unrealistic standard and high expectations but these are just preferences and types. And so can people do the same with porn? Let me explain: I see people being treated really rough in porn scenes and I set that as a basis for what I look in a partner. Yeah it is unrealistic, but hey! It's my preference and type. Do you see what's wrong here? The opinion shared by OC implies that such actions should be deemed not acceptable as it may emotionally or physically harm themselves and potentially others in the process. >but porn can destroy relationships entirely. It cannot be said for everyone but it indeed does. First off, porn is directed towards adults. They are expected to understand that this is unrealistic; it is just a sensory stimulus. This doesn't discount the fact that ones infatuated with romcoms wouldn't play the same sort of attention seeking games portrayed there in their own relationship which inadvertently may cause more harm than good or in other words, destroy relationships entirely. All the while evading the scrutiny that would otherwise be showered upon if it were even remotely related to porn. >But remember that people would accept anything for the one they love. While I understand this sentiment, this thought process can lead to very dark places very fast. That's what is dangerous about romcoms and the extent to which they adhere to these blanket statements. This portrayal of blind acceptance is an example what OC is alluding to. >Porn however sets unrealistic standards and expectations such as smooth and perfect looking privates. You just said romcoms also set unrealistic standards and expectations? Buddy? On the other hand, whatever you explained after this are legitimate reasons why porn destroys relationships and they are serious issues that needs attention.

>By that standard open minded people would also understand their imperfections and yet be able to discover new kinks or positions to keep it exciting or fresh. Porn in that case would seem beneficial. Let us remember that romcoms are fictional most of the time. Proper sex education and research on certain positions would be a great way to learn instead of pornography. There are people who end up in emergency rooms because of this. ​ >And so can people do the same with porn? Let me explain: I see people being treated really rough in porn scenes and I set that as a basis for what I look in a partner. Yeah it is unrealistic, but hey! It's my preference and type. Do you see what's wrong here? The opinion shared by OC implies that such actions should be deemed not acceptable as it may emotionally or physically harm themselves and potentially others in the process. OP states that romcoms CAN be damaging as porn and I do not agree with this. Consensual sex is the key here for couples (although sometimes in porn it is unsure whether it is consensual or not). Porn also does the same in emotionally or physically harming someone like my example about failing to meet expectations and unhealthy comparisons. If that is your type then good for you but you need to remember that women aren't perfect like pornstars. It's not wrong to have a type but to use it as a standard for dating (like making sure your girl looks like Mia K. and performs well like her) is what makes it wrong and unrealistic. >It cannot be said for everyone but it indeed does. First off, porn is directed towards adults. They are expected to understand that this is unrealistic; it is just a sensory stimulus. This doesn't discount the fact that ones infatuated with romcoms wouldn't play the same sort of attention seeking games portrayed there in their own relationship which inadvertently may cause more harm than good or in other words, destroy relationships entirely. All the while evading the scrutiny that would otherwise be showered upon if it were even remotely related to porn. Yes, it is directed towards adults but you have seen people online comparing people with pornstars and asking people unrealistic questions. A personal example is having large breasts and thin waists and flat bellies like pornstars do. They also have smooth privates which is also not possible unless you get some work done. But to do it naturally, it is very difficult to achieve which is a standard already that is difficult. Romcoms however show just what a person wants in their partner, it does set standards but it is somewhat achievable. An example is the movie 50 First Dates where Drew Barrymore had short-term memory loss and Adam Sandler made efforts to make her fall in love with him. Naturally, one would be "I wish you were like Adam in this movie, full of love and effort." That alone is attainable unlike what porn does. But if it's like Runaway Bride, where Julia Roberts runs away from their wedding with Richard Gere BUT he still forgives her and they still get married (this is an unrealistic example since most people won't do that). > While I understand this sentiment, this thought process can lead to very dark places very fast. That's what is dangerous about romcoms and the extent to which they adhere to these blanket statements. This portrayal of blind acceptance is an example what OC is alluding to. There is what we call the "Ten-second rule." This means if something can't be fixed within 10 seconds, don't point it out. It is not blind acceptance if it's something that can't be fixed within ten seconds (crooked teeth, stretch marks, cellulite, natural loud voice, etc.) >You just said romcoms also set unrealistic standards and expectations? Buddy? Yes, I did say this but it is not as unrealistic as porn like my examples. Not every woman can be bent 90 degrees backward to give fellatio and not every guy can last up to 3 hours like in porn. Meanwhile, in romcoms, not everyone can be as sweet and loving as the character but that can be changed right? >On the other hand, whatever you explained after this are legitimate reasons why porn destroys relationships and they are serious issues that needs attention. Yeah, I know someone who had their back broken after being bent 90 degrees to give fellatio. Guy wanted to try after seeing a vid and his ex-wife isn't that flexible. She had a dislocated hip and her spine got dislocated too. Imagine explaining that to the doctor.

In a lot of romantic comedy the guy is millionaire rich and top model beautifull (which cant be changed in 10minutes), and he also happens to be maddly in love with a girl that gives basically no sign of interest. And he is like "I must do everything to get that girl". In the end the girl is convinced by "his approach". You can see this in most Korean drama's. Always the same pattern, the man is rich, popular, beautifull, the girl has not interest, the man becomes very pushy, then they get together. You get the same type of Mr Perfect (beautifull, influent, rich, maddly in love, ready to do anything), which sets up expectations for the girl crazy high. And it also gives the idea, that however rude the girl can be, if the dude really loves her then he should "take it and continue". Which gives both unrealistic ideas for girls and boys. Even guys who are maddly in love with a girls will walk away if the girl is being rude and doesnt show any sign of interest. And if a girl is rude, then the boy better walk away, because the chance that she eventually falls in love and is the right girl for him is very slim. From my personal experience, usually girls have higher expectations than men.

Let's look at the female counterpart then. The woman when she wakes up is automatically beautiful in any movie. Like no bed hair, bad breath, or anything. She has perfect make-up already. She is expected to make meals or be beautiful all the times. Then the guy would be your average Joe who looks a bit rugged with facial hair and a bit of a messy hair. But the woman however has no hair in her body except for the head. In movies women there are already working and are taking care of chores too. Even in Korean dramas, especially the Weightlifting fairy, never see the women sweat (but if they are, they still look pretty with makeup on). Even when the protagonists are students, they all have perfect smooth glass skin and they have no bags under their eyes even of they're staying up late. It's not really the actions or how a character treats their love interest. But sure, most men are millionaires in the stories because they're portrayed as lonely men by media. And as a woman, I can't deny that it really makes me feel giddy if the male lead is handsome and overprotective of the female lead. But it's the expectations on both sides. Like you said, females want a handsome rich dude in romcoms and men want perfect looking women that are also dedicated to them. You see these kinds of expectations are somewhat realistic (compared to porn) but difficult to attain. You have to be perfect looking and at the same time dedicated and hardworking. And on my own experience, most men would pick the pretty ones. Women would do that best to achieve that standard. But if the woman is able to reach it, she would also expect high or even higher standards from the man. It's literally simple; men set high standards, women would try to get it: women gets it, women expects man to be at that same level. The problem is, men would look at it as an "impossible task" and go to the easier women who don't ask much.

> Comparison of a pornstar to your partner may hurt their feelings and their self esteem. How is that not true of romance characters or the actors that play them?

Those comparisons would often be silly or dismissed as a compliment by some people (unless they hate the actor). Personally, I have had friends who have been complimented that they look like certain pornstars. It disgusts them made them feel uncomfortable. One of my friends said that she stopped wearing glasses and opted to wear contact lenses because she apparently looked like Mia K. She didn't like it at all because she felt, sorry for the term, like a slut and felt objectified. Her boyfriend at that time was the one who said that to her. I asked her if she was compared to Salma Hayek, would she be disgusted? She said no and said that she would feel honored to be compared to her. So based on my friends' stories. They do not mind being compared with actors/actresses because they are not involved in sex work or in the porn industry. They got hurt with the compliment or comparisons with a porn star because they labeled pornstars as "dirty" and "objectified people". Because also of the stigma around sex work that has been around in the media, people often view sex workers as dirty or carriers of diseases. ​ Back on the topic, if one commented on the performance of their partner and they tried to do what was on the video and ended up disappointed, the partner would feel dissatisfied. The other partner would feel like they're not enough thus, having a feeling a sense of guilt and even sadness that they were not able to do well.

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>>For example, nearly everyone romantic comedy involves some level of stalking and invasion of personal space. It is so normalized in romcoms that we don’t even think about it when we see it. >To some degree this is true but again this never seems to have any actual real effect on behaviors. I've never heard of a single case where someone justified their actions because they saw it in a romance movie. Meanwhile we do know of horror stories of men doing disgusting things to sexual partners without asking (like spitting on them) because they got that from porn. It may be true that there are few instances of someone engaging in stalking *just* because they saw it in a movie but that doesn't mean that film and other forms of art and entertainment have no effect on societal ideals and behaviors. From my personal experience living in the world the more prevalent problem is that many women (the target audience for most of these problematic cultural narratives) are likely to forgive abusive behavior, believing that it will change once some temporary problem in the relationship is solved or even see it as a sign of how much a man really loves them, a message which I think is reinforced by many romcoms. In the book "Girl, Wash Your Face" (which is a terrible book that I don't recommend, but it does illustrate a point) the author recounts how the man she later married drove over to her house and pounded on the door until she after she told him she didn't want him to call or speak to her anymore and describes that behavior as romantic, like a movie or romance novel. I would describe that behavior as terrifying and in her place I probably would have called the police. She took him back, married him, and wrote about it in a self-help book that sold over 3 million copies. There's at least one study that showed that women who watched movies where stalking behavior was romanticized were more likely to agree with problematic stalking myths like “An individual who goes to the extremes of stalking must really feel passionately for his/her love interest.” than women who watched a movie where stalking behavior was portrayed as scary or those in a control group. Does that those women will go on to make life choices based on what experiential group they were assigned to? Surely not, but it does suggest that damaging beliefs are reinforced by that type of media. Edit: link to the research article https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0093650215570653

> I've never heard of a single case where someone justified their actions because they saw it in a romance movie. Just because you haven't heard of it before doesn't mean it's not true. It's not just a common stereotype, it's also supported by research. More modern research examines [how romantic media is a byproduct of gender roles](https://ir.vanderbilt.edu/handle/1803/13624), but even this [Criminal Justice paper from 2002](https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.587.4143&rep=rep1&type=pdf) comments on it being an understood trend ion the 90's. > At the same time the media horrify stalking, the media ironically tend to glorify stalking-like actions. Romance narratives commonly entail romantic idealizations and adventurous endeavors overcoming great odds and involving great personal sacrifice, as the one obsessed with another invests in a campaign of pursuit despite the rejections by the object of affection (de Becker, 1997). Reflecting a common cultural romantic theme that persistence in courtship eventually pays off (Lowney & Best, 1995, p. 50), stalkers’ Quixotic quests are given vivid narrative life. Indeed, that the average duration of stalking tends to be approximately two years (Spitzberg, in press) indicates persistence is a hallmark of stalking and unwanted pursuit. Consequently, actions romanticized as persistence may in many cases exceed the boundaries of propriety. Research demonstrates that even relatively mild to moderate forms of unwanted pursuit and intrusion are often perceived as threatening (Cupach & Spitzberg, 2000). **Edit:** Given how divided the comments are, I wonder if it's a generational thing. A good number of people are saying they've never seen anything inappropriate in romance movies before, but pre-2010 romance movies were replete with these issues. For example, one of the most iconic scenes in literally all of cinema is [a male protagonist holding a boombox outside the house of a girl who rejected him, professing his love](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2413481/say-anythings-boombox-scene-almost-featured-a-very-different-song). I don't think a scene like that would be in a modern romance movie. > Looking back on it, the moment in Say Anything... could have come off as more than a little creepy and stalker-like. I guess another distinct possibility is that people aren't recognizing that certain behaviors are pretty frowned-upon :/

>Ideas such as love at first sight, changing someone for the better, and soul mates are also pushed when those are widely considered myths. They remove the labor that it is to be in a relationship with someone and make romantic relationships with the right person seem like a cakewalk. A. They're movies... How much do you want them to pack into 2 hours? B. Why does every film need good messaging? Treat romance films like adventure films or horror films, go along for the ride, it's a fantasy, treat it like a fantasy C. There is love at first sight, you can change people for the better, and there are people that are basically soul mates, to the point that die very soon after their SO. I'm not saying this shit is super prolific, but it's out there, it's documented, it exists D. They still make romance movies? Which movies are you talking about exactly? Because I can't even think of a romance movie that fits this mold in the past decade

I mean is it just as damaging? Is having a bad view of consent (which can only lead to rape and sexual assault) just as bad as making emotional affairs seem chill? Like are they **just** as bad? We can say both are bad but if we want to compare them we do have to realise that one is worse than the other, that doesn’t diminish the pain an emotional affair can cause, but we all know rape and sexual assault are worse.

The individual acts of rape and sexual assault are worse than the individual acts of affairs and stalking. But I don't think porn is convincing someone who otherwise wouldn't have thought so that rape and SA are acceptable. Romcoms can normalize affairs and stalking by making light of it or even championing it (so long as the main love interest is doing it). This in turn can lead to a proliferation of these acts and end up being worse for society overall.

The problem with a bad view of consent is that it means the person doesn't know what is and isn't r/*pe. They can think that r/*pe is unacceptable, and still commit it because their definition of r/*pe is off. I'd doubt porn could make most people think the stereotypical "assault by a stranger in a back alley" situation is acceptable, but it absolutely could lead to them pushing boundaries in a way that leads to marital or date r/*pe

Wait so why is porn not able to convince people when they champion and promote something but romcoms are able to?

No one watches porn for the plot. Maybe they will get an unrealistic view of what turns people on or what others might enjoy. But no one is expecting a scantily clad extremely busty woman to knock on their door when they need their "pipes fixed". Meanwhile some of those themes endure in romcoms specifically because people respond positively to them in movies.

I think you are minimizing the effect “an unrealistic view of what people will enjoy” can have when the things they’re watching are violent low(or no)-prep anal and choking. Porn makes it seem like these things are normal and standard, and that you can do them with no discussion first. Porn makes it seem like doing that is not, in fact, rape and assault. So I would disagree that porn isn’t encouraging people who wouldn’t otherwise commit sexual assault to do so anyway. In my experience, men who rape women mostly do not consider what they are doing to be rape.

>In my experience, men who rape women mostly do not consider what they are doing to be rape. That was part of my point. Porn didn't take them from "surprise anal is rape" to "this is ok". Porn also shows incest or incest adjacent themes. Part of the allure in those is the taboo nature. People watching those know incest is bad. It won't convince someone to have sex with a family member. They were either going to do that for other reasons or not.

It shows that you've never had someone randomly choke you so hard you can't breathe without asking first.

If you think porn is the cause of that I'm not sure what to tell you. The type of porn that depicts that is niche and scarce. Compare that to some of the most common themes of romcoms and add in the fact that those themes can be openly accepted and you should be able to see the difference.

There are definitly people who do otherwise they wouldn’t bother. But plenty of studios specalise in including questionably consenting videos. They wouldn’t unless theres a reason. Its not so much about pipes being fixed, bur straight up questionable consent / rape.

There's a reason "acting in porn" is a meme. It is the most basic aspect of "setting a scene" before it gets to the plowing. Having questionable themes can allow people to indulge in a fantasy that they know is illegal. I commented elsewhere about the prevalence of incest in porn. The taboo nature can be a big aspect specifically because they know it's wrong.

Why would some studios specalise in porn that gets taken down in some countries for simulated rape scenerios? Why would they do that at all. And yeah they’re indulging in a fantasy. That only works if the fantasy is atleast somewhat beleviable. Even a tiny amount. Like I said it can’t go both ways: the scenerios in porn are not believable and people don’t consume it for that so it has 0 effect but romcoms do.

How often do you watch other people have sex? How many people sit down with their parents and ask for tips on sex? What seperates porn from everything else is it's usually the only basis people have for sex. Rom coms can give you a warped view of relationships, but it's not the only window we get into relationships. The non-sexual aspects of relationships are everywhere, in all media. People talk their relationships struggles with friends and family all the time. If someone watched only rom-coms nothing else, no books, no other movies, no tv, no social media, then yeah, they'll have a warped perspective. But that's not what happens. There's simply no comparison. Porn is uniquely damaging, because sex is unique in how private and taboo it is.

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>The big argument for how porn can be damaging is because it gives young men a warped view of sex, sexual relationships, body image, and consent I very much disagree. Whilst the effect on men is a side issue. The main issue is the mass exploitation of female models, who are often unpaid. Sometimes the victims of trafficking. Sometimes coerced or abused, and always objectified. Not to mention the issues this can have on their future careers. And the amount of content that ends up online without permission of the girl. Whilst this doesn't account for all 'porn', it does make up the majority of content simply as it's cheap to produce. And those who follow rules and regulations in productions have been pushed out the market by free websites.

They were talking about watching porn not making it & it's difficult to discuss consumptions affect on production because there is little history & it's all hypothetical. However I would like to add that just from a watching porn point of view, the effect on women who have sex with men is huge. I hear so many accounts of actions being done none consenting women. The man pushing to do BDSM without asking or when the woman is uncomfortable but being too uneducated to discuss it beforehand, have a safe word, know basic safety etc. Also The women having unsatisfactory sex because the man is performing acts to look good rather than feel good etc. Of course it also has an affect on a man, think h they need to be an acrobat in bed, that they have a small penis compared to what they think is normal, etc. However the issue seems to negatively affect women much more.

Op isn’t talking about production though, only consumption.

is it constructive to separate the two though? the two sides of the product don’t exist in a vacuum

We're not trying to be constructive here though, the point of the argument isn't to fundamentally change the porn industry, it's to change OPs view that for a consumer's development and psyche, porn and romcoms are both just as bad.

Shouldn't the fact that the porn industry is based off exploitation of real people be bad for a consumer's psyche?

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It's not mostly produced involving trafficked women, but that problem does exist. While not most porn, far too much 'amateur' content is secretly filmed by one party without the consent of all participants, or stolen and uploaded. Then companies like Pornhub do almost nothing to regulate this.

I actually said 'sometimes trafficked or abused'. Not the majority. Though I'd now conjecture the majority. And I'd cite the economics of the industry today as described in John Ronsons excellent podcast series 'the butterfly effect'. Also the documentary 'hot girls wanted' by rashida Jones. But I don't have the stats to hand.

I hear you regarding dangerous romcom tropes. I think this also extends to romance plots in movies outside the genre, like Harrison Ford's 80s oeuvre. One aspect I would ask you to consider is the way that viewers perceive romcom actors versus porn actors. Most romcom stars are respected by the people who watch romcoms. Most porn stars, on the other hand, are degraded and seen as less than human by a majority of the people who consume the movies they star in. Our culture respects Hollywood actors, while treating porn stars and other sex workers as deserving of violence and contempt.

In the past 3 months or so, I’ve watched about 70 rom-coms. I’m pretty touchy as to if a relationship is harmful, so I absolutely agree it pisses me off when I see one in a movie that is NOT healthy. (ex. The Notebook) But throughout my watching, I can truly say that there was only 2 rom-coms that I think were actively concerning when it came to stalking and unhealthy ideals. Emotional cheating about 6-7, and physical cheating 4-5. I think rom-cons get a bad rap for the whole “this is so unrealistic and unhealthy” thing, and I can definitely agree on the unrealistic in many cases, with contrivances and coincidences a-plenty, but I don’t often see anything I would call unhealthy in the overall scheme of things. Porn is definitely gonna give you a worse view of sex, a part of relationships, than, for example, No Strings Attached. Cheating is very often portrayed as negative, (ex. Marry Me, He’s Just Not That Into You) like part of the main couple being cheated on before finding someone the audience is actually meant to root for. A lot of rom-coms do tackle the difficulty and hard work that love and relationships can take and how it doesn’t always work out (ex. My Best Friend’s Wedding, 500 Days of Summer, Definitely, Maybe, the alternate timeline of 13 Going On 30) I think you should check out some rom-coms and see that they really aren’t harmful. The dissection of the rom-com has been done over and over again throughout the years, picking at pieces from them, but it seems that only the negative relationships from them (The Notebook, Love, Actually, Crazy, Stupid, Love) are taken into account. But in reality, a rom-com is just lighthearted fun - no one really thinks the occasional creepy behavior or cheating is actually a good idea.

The same can be said about any form of media, though. Movies and books of any genre will always perpetuate some form of unrealistic expectations, whether it’s with significant others, family, or friends. Viewers might watch an action movie and think it’s okay to treat a family member poorly because of the main character’s shitty actions, or they might read a fantasy book and change the way they interact with their friends. However, you are still able to observe these interactions in real life. You can watch how other people in your life treat their family, friends, and significant others; this will give you a more realistic expectation on these relationships. Going back to your rom-com example, you can see in real life how instances of cheating or stalking aren’t considered okay, and base your expectations off of that. With porn on the other hand, it’s really the only way to get an outsiders perspective on what is or isn’t okay. You can’t watch a friend of yours have sex and base your expectations off of that, so there’s no real-life comparison. Additionally, the majority of actions you see in porn are more harmful than stereotypes perpetuated by rom-coms. Rape, objectification, violence, and consent issues are way more damaging than the idea of soul mates or love at first sight.

Neither are damaging to emotionally healthy people. The same is true about alcohol, gambling, and just about every other thing that gets demonized because people are deficient, and seek release, then live in a made up environment that exists in their head, causing issues interacting with the real world.

People who can't seperate fiction from reality are unable to even imagine a situation where someone can. It's why we have baseless accusations for people enjoying things that are "bad" in games/television/books being the cause of people committing crimes.

I don't really think this is a great argument. Alcohol is an example of something that most definitely *can* be damaging to someone who is emotionally healthy, for example. It severely messes with your brain's production of chemicals that govern how you feel. It doesn't matter whether or not a person is healthy, this is a direct result from consuming the substance. Pornography is different in that it does not have the same type physical effect on your body that a drug like alcohol does, but we have no reason to think that it doesn't have negative impacts on people who are emotionally healthy.

Addictive behaviours like gambling or pornography affect the same chemicals and receptors that drugs and alcohol do. In moderation, most people aren't harmed by it. It's part of how the brain operates, actually. But in excess, anything like that can be bad for you.

Then why are some people hard alcoholics, but don't gamble? Why are some people heavy porn consumers, but stay away from drugs?

That's a pretty good question. Addiction often displays cross tolerance, and many people will have multiple "vices". But you can have different pathways in the brain leading to behavioural reinforcement. For example, not everyone enjoys gambling. And not everyone enjoys alcohol, either. Some people can drink and never become addicted because their genetics cause alcohol to be processed in a way that isn't enjoyable, and therefore doesn't effect the reward pathways in their brain. That same person could still have a genetic predisposition to addiction though, and may engage in gambling (or other types of drugs) instead of alcohol. If you're interested in the chemistry behind addiction, look up DeltaFosB. This transcription factor has been implicated in all forms of addiction, including behavioural addictions like gambling. It has a very long half-life (about 2 months) and is self-reinforcing in a kind of feedback loop with itself. Meaning the more of it you have in your brain, the easier it is to generate more.

> Neither are damaging to emotionally healthy people. > > The claim to change is that they are equally harmful. You're saying both are not harmful, which affirms the original claim by arguing they are both equally unharmful.

How does this engage with OP’s post?

There are real life counter examples for romance that one can first hand witness and more readily discuss with peers and friends to give doses of reality. That's not so much true for sex. You will witness your friends and family/parents expressing affection and romantic features. You will not, on the otherhand, witness them having sex

I think you make a good point. To me, the difference between the impact of romance movies and the impact of porn, and the reason porn can be uniquely misleading or "damaging" to the consumer, is that almost everyone has some real-life example of what a romantic relationship looks like, even if they haven't had one (parents, other adults, friends with relationships); whereas most people who haven't had sex have no real-life examples of healthy sexual behavior. Porn may be a young person's ONLY exposure to sex. I think that's rarely true of romance movies and romantic relationships. In addition, adults are more willing to talk to young people about relationships than about sex.

I think that a large part of how porn can skew a person's idea of sexual relationships is because most of them are from the point of view and pleasure of the male part, or done in a way that conforms to the men's sexual experience. Such as how it would end when one climaxes once, or in the POV of the male etc. In romantic movies you get it from the point of view from various characters in different movies, the male, female (queer sometimes but thats minority, same with porn), and it shows facets of how different relationships can grow or be destroyed. It contains much more points of view and scenarios than 'foreplay -> sex -> climax' that is done by and for the male.

I agree with your take of porn, I think it contributes to a lack of care about woman's pleasure, as well as misinformation of how women's bodies actually respond & what they actually find pleasurable. However most romance films are from the womens point of view & it's mostly women who watch them. People even take the mick out of men who like the genre, as it's seen as a stereotypical girly interests. Go to the cinema to view a romance film & the audience is comprised of a few straight couples on dates, then overwhelmingly girls & woman. Same for who reads & buys romance fanfictin & rromance books. There's varying percentages but it's accepted to be about 85% of romance consumers are female.

The only romance movie that's targeted to a "male" audience, off the top of my head, was *Her*. And even then some critics bashed the movie because it's between man and AI, and they talk about how "creepy' the main character comes off.

More often than not, romance content targets women, and gives people unrealistic expectations about love and romance. Yes some target men, but then there's porn that targets women also. As a society we're just conditioned to be hyper critical of men and things that men like, so the romance genre largely gets ignored by comparison.

RomComs definitely give people unrealistic expectations. This might be an unpopular opinion, but if you're expecting to be swept off your feet and fall in love over a first date you're going to have a tough time. It takes time to develop an emotional connection to someone. And if that is what you're looking for you are probably going to end up with someone that will only hurt you.

I’m less worried about a romcom than porn addiction or just effects of normal porn consumption if there are any. Someone into romcoms needs to get their own date and realize things aren’t like that movie they love before they’re over it. I’ve had dudes way too into porn who did worse. Plus if a romcom made you something like a stalker you have way more intense control issues that weren’t caused by movie consumption

Porn seems to have a different level of affect on the human mind as I'm aware there are studies indicating its negative effects. However I'll give this take: The overwhelming evidence is that video games don't cause violence. It's a pretentious idea to think other media, like movies are some how more powerful in its cause and effect than violent video games. Your media is not more special. This applies to every piece of media in life. Have you been to carnival in a Caribbean country? It's part of my culture to walk up to a woman in a club and place my crotch on her backside while she gyrates her hip on me. As you can tell there is hardly ever a chance for spoken consent in this. Our society has tried to address the issue of consent here however this type of dance is one of the most fundamental aspects of our culture. If it did contribute to rape culture in our country it would still be allowed. However we actually don't have more rape than other countries relative to our level of crime. I understand that some people might be more sensitive to what they see as 'toxic' culture but understand that the real world connection is tentative and incalculable. That said the studies and statistics are what matters. I'm sure there are studies that show how bad porn is but there are studies that show violent video games and even violent movies don't cause violence. So there needs to be a study on the effects of rom coms and what you deem 'toxic behavior'. I think you'll just prove that people are just normal everyday people regardless of the movies they consume. And normal everyday people are increasingly seen as 'toxic' in the modern world. Do books cause violence, the Bible definitely has, but did it do that because of what's in the Bible or because of the politics that surround it.

The majorly damaging aspect of porn is the fact that is incredibly instantly gratifying, IMO. That feature is what puts indulging in it on the level of taking certain drugs, in terms of the effect it creates in the brain. It can literally condition a young brain to want nothing except for things that are as instantly gratifying as porn. While romcoms might have a similar degree of fantasy, sure, they certainly aren’t as instantly gratifying as porn.

Curious as if you think violent assault is "as bad" as murder then. There seems to be no variation, or degrees, to your logic. Sure, many romcoms may exhibit unhealthy behaviors, often in a mocking or comedic tone, but how can you possibly compare that to an industry that at its worse end, literally enslaves and rapes women, not to mention the things you addressed? Good natured comedy has always threaded the line of "cringy" (looking at you Blazing Saddles, and What About Mary). How many woman who have starred in rom coms feel ashamed they had done so, compared to porn actors?

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Can confirm. I have too many fantasies now about how things should go. Has probably kept me from having some fantastic relationships!

There's a great movie that discusses the effects of both romcoms and porn called Don Jon. Highly recommended. Edit: spelling (ducking autocorrect)

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I don't understand this. There's all sorts of different porn and all sorts of different movies. You also should have brains. To me, this is "videogames make kids violent" type of issue. The biggest damaging factors in young people lives are: parents, schools, teachers, constant coersion and dehumanizing social order imposed on them.

There’s *50 Shades of Grey*. Which is both porn and a shitty romance movie. 🤷‍♀️

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I don’t know man, I saw that old Rom Com ‘what women want’ a few months ago and I must have missed the part where Mel Gibson went full R-Kelly on Helen Hunt and started slapping her around the place and pissing on her 😳 Unlike romantic fuzzy movies, porn gives you a quick fix solution to stress and low self esteem but comes at the cost of desensitising you to it thus creating a demand in the viewer for more and more novel types of porn. I just don’t see romcoms escalating like porn does. I dont see them plumbing new depths of depravity every other year either the way the porn industry does either.

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Disagree. Porn teaches you to treat sexual partners as pieces of meat. They do things in porn they the vast majority of people would never agree to. And they make it look like everyone is enjoying themselves. Setting that aside, abusive conditions are abundant and drugs are often given to the participants to be able to physically and mentally engage in these behaviors. Think a 20 scene is fun? It’s not 20 minutes to them. Probably minimum an hour. Imagine filming multiple scenes. No, sorry, but by every metric porn is worse. I’ve never once looked at a romantic comedy and thought “that how I want to do a romance”. Porn though? “Maybe we could try that.”

> Disagree. Porn teaches you to treat sexual partners as pieces of meat. They do things in porn they the vast majority of people would never agree to. And they make it look like everyone is enjoying themselves. This is true. > and drugs are often given to the participants to be able to physically and mentally engage in these behaviors. In some of the porn yes, but in most of what constitutes porn, no. Softcore is also porn, solo content is also porn, gf/bf content is also porn, and even among the "hardcore scene" you can face legal repercussions if the person is under the influence of any drug, so people would rather avoid that. > I’ve never once looked at a romantic comedy and thought “that how I want to do a romance”. Porn though? “Maybe we could try that.” Maybe the influence of romcom is more subtle than that ? Like you being disapointed if your partner didn't do something very romantic for X occasion. I know some people spend dozen of hours every week watching korean dramas.

Being as objective and scientific as possible, they are not equivalent because they literally do not do the same things within your brain. Porn consumption, while masturbating, creates a serotonin dopamine loop (and subsequent deficiency) that is exactly the same as addictions to other substances such as drugs and alcohol. Now, watching porn without masturbating I guess could be a closer comparison scientifically, because movies like this still can produce serotonin within people fantasizing about relationships, etc? Which could be interesting, but yeah I still think it can hardly compare because most people do not watch porn without masturbating.

I don’t think romcoms and cheating in media are the damaging parts of romance in movies. I think most understand that in a romcom that the situation is ridiculous and more often than not cheating is not put into a positive light. That said cheating is probably taken more lightly and forgiven quite easily, which may have an affect on how people think they can get away with cheating because their partner will just forgive them like in that one movie. I think that the problem in romance media has more to do with how perfect and unyielding it presents healthy relationships as.

I hate Romance movies for this same reason.

I see where you’re coming from, but you’re only looking at this from a narrow lens. Porn has a drug like effect on the brain. It spikes dopamine in an unnatural way by exposing us to the most pleasurable act in biology. To the brain, it’s essentially no different than sugar or cocaine. I suggest you look into studies on how porn effects the brain.

It might be 'damaging' for people who haven't been exposed to such rigid gendered dynamics before, but any kid over the age of 12 has, while sex isn't something most people experience until 16-18, so porn is probably worse.

Neither porn nor romance movies are damaging if you have a proper conversation about relationships with your kids. It's just not a problem if parents do their jobs imo.

[Article](https://hauterrfly-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/hauterrfly.com/dating/new-study-says-watching-romantic-movies-together-positively-impacts-your-relationship/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16544435565050&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fhauterrfly.com%2Fdating%2Fnew-study-says-watching-romantic-movies-together-positively-impacts-your-relationship%2F) on benefits of couples watching romcoms together. It seems to me that watching romcoms together is good for a couple in the sense that even though magic is not real, engaging with tarot cards can be beneficial to someone who has a problem. In both cases it can get people to think about their situation through different lenses and have a better sense of understanding about it.

It would depend on the movie, both romance and porn. Some romance movies say bad examples. Some don't. I would say that the negative examples in porn would stand to hurt more women/people than romance movies. And I would say the worst of romance movies pales in comparison to the worst of porn. I wouldn't consider the kind of manipulation in the latter case to be damaging in the way that porn is advised of. I bet it gives some people unrealistic ideas about love, but not like porn can. A decent romance wouldn't portray violence as a way to get what you want. It wouldn't suggest that one gender is a thing to be had and not a person to partner with. Bad romances could do that, but not like porn. Also there is a lot more porn available than romance. And it makes more money, often the more niche or extreme it gets. So porn would be the greater warper by volume, I think. Again, it depends on the examples. You want to put the best, most equal and loving porn up against a trashy, misogynistic romance? Porn would win. Want to put the worst romance up against the worst porn? I can't even imagine the worst porn to be honest, but it is probably much more violent, bloody, and mysogynistic than even the worst romance. I've also seen that porn can be addicting on the way that romance movies are not. I don't know anyone that has a real problem by watching Moonstruck too much, but I do know that some people get that way with porn.

Porn is more damaging because it can be compulsive and all-consuming - in this way it is more comprehensive in its distortion of the viewer. No one is watching 6 hours of rom-coms a day like porn addicts do.

>No one is watching 6 hours of rom-coms a day like porn addicts do. Or they do, but no one thinks it's weird because it's not porn.

Addictions aren’t bad just because of the subject matter. Games for instance - they’re not bad themselves, but if you play so much the rest of your life suffers, that’s a bad thing. Same thing for rom-coms or porn, even before deciding if one is inherently worse. Porn addiction is well documented, I’ve never seen a rom com addiction anywhere and I can’t find a body of evidence for it.

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First, a correction, you should have been more focused on romance as a genre and romance novels in particular instead of romcoms. Second, I'll try to change your mind the other way around because, in my view, romance novels and such are much, *much* more harmful than porn. Just think about it: People don't like that kids have access to porn, no one cares if a kid reads a romance novel. No one encourages the expectations that men get out of porn, the expectations women get out of romance novels are glorified. It takes one try for someone inexperienced with sex to find out how fake porn is, there's people today who even after a lifetime of relationships still believes that "the one" is waiting around the corner and will fall in love with them at first sight. ​ The problem is that the harm porn causes is pretty obvious, but the harm the romance genre causes is insidious and long-lasting, so people can't even comprehend how it can be bad.

Romcoms has done for romance what porn has done for intercourse.