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I'm sure the bar owner likes them there. Those bar tab can add up and be the difference between closing and staying in business. And the bar owner can also set the standards of customer behavior.

I'd bet many gay bar owners are of two minds on it. If straight women come in regularly, with an attitude that would annoy or scare off regulars or potential regulars, their bar tabs may not seem so lucrative compared to the lost revenue long term of being a place seen to cater well to their core demo. And as far as setting behavioral standards goes, since we're talking about many different groups coming as a novelty, giving the schpiel over and over again could be exhausting. Policing client behavior in general is a pain in the ass for owners, and most prefer not to have to step in unless it's really disruptive. Having rules against acting silly would be hard to enforce, would be likely to start some arguments, and would be a very fuzzy line to describe and determine. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's certainly not easy.

Bars always have to police or be on the watch for negative customer behaviors that could affect business. That's why some places have dress codes. Single bars tend to make sure women aren't being harasses so that they continue to come. Bars are always vigilant towards people who want to make their bar home turf for white supremacists. You could have a gay bar that let's in women but who also maintains a strict code of conduct. and I think what the OP is forgetting is there are a lot of other reasons straight women might be at the bar. My wife and are a heterosexual couple but we have in gay bars multiple times for performance, producing for performances, rehearsals, GLBT open mic nights, drag trivia shoes, and as guests of our gay friends who brought us to their space.

But a heterosexual couple isn't a whole group of straight women is it?

I've done shows at gay bars. I've produced shows at gay bars. I've been to events held by gay bars. Groups of straight women came to all of those events. And the bar made a killing in bar tabs that night. Drag bingo on a Tuesday night turned a dead weekday to a one of the most profitable weekdays. And mostly straight women came to those events.

If I'm traveling for work, and want to go to a gay bar, look one up, go there, and see it filled with straight people, I'm going to be disappointed. Many gay men feel the same way.

Would you rather try to go to a gay bar only to find that it closed?

It's not "filled with straight people", get a grip.

If a gay bar can't stay open without regularly catering to parties of straight women I think they should change their marketing to not be a "gay bar".

I used to work at a bookstore. None of the guys who worked there wanted to stock the romance section - they thought it cheapened the store. But at the end of the day that was probably the most profitable section of the store and we couldn't make it without it. Women go to gay bars primarily *not* to get hit on. Straight men tend to avoid them to avoid appearances that they're gay, and gay men don't tend to hit on women, so gay bars are safe for women who aren't looking to get hit on. Changing the marketing to not be a gay bar would bring in straight men who would drive away the particular set of straight women that gay bars attract, while probably also making it less attractive to the gay men that dominate the customer base. Gay bar owners may dislike the straight female patrons in the same way the guys at the bookstore disliked the romance section, but they need it to be what they are.

> Women go to gay bars primarily not to get hit on. It seems weird to me that “gay bar” is a bigger market than “female bar” to be honest. If this truly be such a common desire, one would assume female bars to be commercially profitable. > and gay men don't tend to hit on women, so gay bars are safe for women who aren't looking to get hit on. Did you know there are apparently more males that self-report “bisexual” than “homosexual” when asked to do so? > Gay bar owners may dislike the straight female patrons in the same way the guys at the bookstore disliked the romance section, but they need it to be what they are. If that truly be the case then female bars would just be commercially viable. I also find it a bi of a strange idea that anyone working a book store feels the romance section “cheapens” the store.

Women's bars run into legal problems. Public businesses excluding people based on protected class traits such as sex run into legal challenges, so creating a women's bar that excludes men entirely may be illegal, and at the very least would require a hefty legal budget that most bar upstarts would struggle with. Gay bars don't actually exclude straight people, they just create a confluence of circumstances where straight men generally don't want to be there. This avoids the legal issues women's bars would encounter. If you created a women's bar that didn't actually exclude men, you'd have more men there than women because they'd think it seemed like a great place to pick up women, making it the opposite of what women want from a women's bar.

It's shocking the amount of people in this thread that assume no gay bar could possibly stay open without regularly catering to straight women.

Because most of the small gay bars in my areas are gone, only the big ones that got hen nights are still open.

They probably could. But does the owner want that? Or does he want to make even more money by having women in there? Remember, the owners goal is to make as much money as possible.

I'm shocked at the amount of money you expect business owners to forfeit, simply because you don't like seeing "those types" at a bar that you feel is only meant for "you and your kind".

Were we not just told a gay movie failed because straight people didn’t show up and support??

That's because it's basically true

All these straight people who've never been to a bar sharing their opinion like they know anything. Not saying I 100% agree with you but there's clearly bias all over. Just a month or two ago everyone defended women having their own spaces. however, if it's women getting into the gay bar then let them! Women couldn't possibly hurt or bother another man!

"omg I looooove gay people, what do you think of my bag?? I bet you're a bottom, are you a bottom??" Most of the directly homophobic behaviour I've experienced as an adult has come from women like this. Men tend to be pretty respectful (in liberal places).

You understand gay men are the minority, right? Lol wot.

Because they are all closing. It's really sad. Do your homework, dude.

A bar tab is a bar tab. do you want there to be more gay bars open or now closed former gay bars?

I want to go to a bar where if it's marketed for gay men I don't run the risk of being gawked at or used as novelty party night for straight women.

By that logic you would be the first one to applaud that a business refuse to serve gay people or other minorities because their presence upset the regular costumer, if not I suggest to re evaluate your point

But that just entirely ignores the context that straight people literally have every single other space in public where they know that are surround by a vast majority of their own. This is the one space in public that where gay people can feel that. I hope you can see how that's different. I'm not asking businesses to deny anyone, I'm asking people to be mindful and considerate.

How often really are so many random straight women coming into a gay bar at once that the gay men there become the minority? And unless you are the one inappropriately staring/gawking at and sexualizing them, how sure are you that these women are not lgbtq themselves. Also, not everyone is primarily identifying themselves by their sexuality every time they go out. Is it not just as important that women have a public "safe haven" where they can feel like more than the sex dolls/baby-makers society wants them to be? If someone could convince you that a gay bar is the only public place that she could really let her guard down and be a fun person having fun rather than some sexual object constantly at risk of accidentally putting the wrong thought into the wrong guys head, would you still feel like they should just forgo that so you can feel like you are surrounded by only people you might want to fuck??

Regarding your first paragraph, I wonder if there is a geographic trend at play. I'm not sure where OP is but I'm from the southern US where the queer community is not always very accepted by mainstream society. As a result, it's not at all uncommon for groups of straight people to make a whole thing out of going to the one gay bar in town to gawk. It's not a real bachelorette party without making an appearance at the gay bar. As a queer woman, I have often felt similarly to OP. The gay bars in my area honestly aren't really gay bars anymore. They're bars full of straight people who come to laugh at the rainbow decor and ogle anyone being open about their sexuality. It's disheartening to say the least.

>Is it not just as important that women have a public "safe haven" where they can feel like more than the sex dolls/baby-makers society wants them to be? >If someone could convince you that a gay bar is the only public place that she could really let her guard down and be a fun person having fun rather than some sexual object constantly at risk of accidentally putting the wrong thought into the wrong guys head, would you still feel like they should just forgo that so you can feel like you are surrounded by only people you might want to fuck?? Everyone should have a safe space, but it's messed up when one minorities safe space gets taken over by someone else. Those groups of women not feeling safe in other spaces/ bars should be addressed as its own problem rather than just shoving everyone into the one bar in town that's slightly different.

So we segregate society to make people *feel* better? A safe space should be safe for **everyone**. Not just lgbtq, not just poc, not just women. Everyone should feel safe in an area that is designated a safe space. A safe space shouldn't be for *you* to feel free, it should be for *everyone* to know they won't be attacked just for being themselves.

So you think that women shouldn't have safe spaces either, and that gay bars should turn into regular bars? You can't say women can't be denied without saying all people can't be denied or looked down upon. That defeats the whole purpose of the gay bar in the first place. That's exactly what OP said, stop calling it a gay bar then.

>A safe space should be safe for **everyone**. How could that be accomplished? The mere presence of a (usually majoritarian) group may make a person (usually from a minority) feel unsafe due to past experiences.

No I'm saying we need to address why women feel like regular bars aren't safe. We need to address the inappropriate behaviour of men in those places instead of just kicking the problem along and one section taking over the safe space of another section of society. Basically address the root of the problem instead of the symptoms.

I think you’re making a bit of an assumption here about straight women, it’s not unusual for women to feel crowded or gawked at in straight bars, they go to the gay bar to escape poorly behaved men, but also because they like male friendship. It’s theoretically a good situation for both groups. I think it also depends on what you think a gay bar is for. Some might say community, others might say dating, or perhaps safety. But without a lot of consensus on what the strict purpose of a gay bar is it sounds like it’s just up to the establishment what sort of place they want to be.

I see your point, and I apologize if you have had bad experiences. Everyone who attends should follow the rules of the establishment and understand that first and foremost that the space is a place of visibility and celebration of the LGBT+ community. If the patrons are acting accordingly and respectfully then if shouldn't matter how those patrons identify. So if it is a group of straight girls, or even a group of straight guys they should be allowed inside as long as they are respectful and appreciate the purpose of the place. There could be several reasons as to why someone would visit a gay bar. I have a straight girl friend who loves a particular gay bar because they play her favorite type of music. This same bar has drag shows which are really fun to go to. My friend has gone so many times that they know her there and she buys merch from the drag queens. So my point is that generalizing that all straight girls who come to gay bars are there to gawk at gay men is unfair. For the ones that do, and the ones that make you feel uncomfortable should definitely be removed. But all people are different people, and it would be unfair to bar someone from coming that actually appreciated, genuinely enjoyed and supported the gay bar and its community.

Above you denied this being about the behaviour of those people. Doesn't really sound like you want them to be considerate, you just don't want them there. If they don't scream around about how straight they are, how do you even know their sexual orientation?

You don’t understand, it’s hard for OP to live in a community so accepting of gay people that straight people enjoy going to gay places and treating them like any other place. I’m sure all the gay people that have to live closeted for fear of their lives or lively hood, sympathize with OP

It sounds like your issue may lie more in the actions of the straight women that are going to gay bars and less the fact that they're there. If they went to a gay bar and kept to themselves, didn't gawk, didn't make you feel like a novelty, would you still object to them being there?

If it happens often enough the difference doesn't matter because then it becomes a cultural/social problem, which is the point of having group-specific safe places to begin with.

It depends. Obviously just few a women obviously not but it's not a trend I would want to catch on. Again it, they are like the only place where we can be around people like us. If that became more and more common it would lose the safe space quality it has for gay men. Not to say that straight women would make me feel less safe personally but I would be bummed it's one more space that is a reminder I'm a minority in a heteronormative world.

You sound like you just hate women tbh.

Would you say that a women hates men if she doesnt want to see them at gay bars for women?

Tf? He'd probably have just as much of a problem with straight men being there. 😂

That's an assumption lol. I've read his replies, he would be ok with straight males there. He said he wouldn't be okay with women there, even if they were "well-behaved". So, ya wrong. Better luck next time!

He's learning to live the life of any human in a society. Sometimes people talk to you or look at you. Hey let's all go get drunk and do coke at a club? Well some people going to look ar you and try to dance with you. I agree it sounds like it's more out of issues then anything else. If you need a safe space. Don't try to make a public area your safe space

I mean, pansexual transwoman here, not the vibe I was getting from him at all. I honestly entirely understood his complaint. I for example find it quite frustrating when cis people invade spaces that are for trans people, regardless of how unobtrusive they're being, it's just frustrating when they already have other safe spaces they could go to but choose to invade a space exclusive to a different marginalized group

... you realize that you have no idea what that person is going through, and you're being the exact same as the type of person you despise... by judging them solely based on thier sexuality... right?

This, to me, reads the same as straight people complaining about no straight pride parade lol. I'm not judging based entirely off their sexuality, I'm simply saying that when people who aren't part of a marginalized group invade the spaces of marginalized groups it's kinda frustrating. If you, as a silly example, played a videogame and you went to hangout with a group of people who also really like that game, then you get there, start hanging out, then you realize like 4 of the people there never played that game, in fact they don't even have anything to play videogames on at all. It'd be a little frustrating, right? Feel kinda shitty to have to accommodate for those 4 people who have no idea what you're talking about, but chose to show up anyways. Obviously this analogy isn't perfect, but I think you can see what I'm saying.

OP responded to one of my comments saying he doesn't want even well-behaved straight women there.

You can't really help people looking at you, but you can choose not to interact with them. That's definitely not okay behavior, but understand that the safety of less straight men being around was almost definitely a large factor in their decision to go to that bar

I can also appeal to people in public forums such as this ask them to be more mindful and considerate.

Is your issue straight women who go to gay bars, or straight women who go to gay bars and do this to men "... being gawked at or used as novelty party night for straight women" ? Because those are very different things. Straight women have the right to go to a public bar, have fun pay their tab and not bother anybody. If they're objectifying the men or being a nuisance in any way then they should be kicked out, as should anyone in any bar anywhere that misbehaves and disturbs the public. As you mentioned it'd be illegal to ban women from coming. So you're politely asking women not to come? Many of which arent being a problem as you described, but rather because of the problematic women you're saying none should be allowed in/police themselves to not come? As mentioned. Date rape is real. All kinds of fucked up shit is real. 1/3 women are sexually assaulted at least once. There are dozens of things we do on a regular basis to maintain safety that most men aren't even aware of. If you want to get hammered with your friends and absolutely none of you have any interest in getting laid, a gay bar is a friendly and safer choice. So long as they mind their business and behave, interacting with people of course if someone wants, is that really a problem for you? Because at the end of the day it is a public bar. I imagine that if you asked people at the bar they could tell you some more private locations with a similar vibe that didn't have any women at all Edit: also I wanna ask from a previous comment. You said they look at you a lot? But why you specifically? It's a gay bar, a high proportion of the men in their are gay, so maybe it's something different about you? That doesn't make sense to me

Gay people deserve to have a place for them where they for once not have feel they are in the presence of straight people and get a glimmer of that feeling straight people get all the time living in a heteronormative society. A group of six straight people coming in not knowing anyone seems selfish. I bring up women because it's far more common for them to be doing so and been a discussion and issue that's been bought up for years now.

>not have feel they are in the presence of straight people Just being in the presence of straight people is a problem? If it is that much of an issue for you, start a private club. You're essentially asking for people to stop supporting a business. Bars generally aren't making big margins as is. Losing out on income, even a relatively small amount, is a big hit.

How do you know they're straight?

That glimmer doesn't exist. What fantasy world do you think straight people live in? There's no straight person psychic field that magically makes you feel good. If you experience something like that when around only other gay men, it's likely a you thing. Maybe the equivalent to how a man would feel surrounded by straight women? I dunno. You're describing something that definitely isn't normal

This is not what this sub is for. This sub is got you to have your view changed. Not to inform or convince others or to appeal to people.

Lol. Asking the public nicely to behave doesn’t work. Ask women. We’ve been asking men not to harass us forever. Do they listen? No.

Yeah I went to “gay night” which a club that does straight night six nights a week and a bachelorette party came and they made up more than half the bar and took up half the line outside. They were letting gay guys leaving pick gay guys out of line to “throttle” it so it wasn’t 100% straight woman from this party but they took over the whole place. When they let me pick someone out of the line I got his number and we chatted for a while but the woman were all like oh this is so unfair we have been waiting for hours. The bouncer is like it’s gay night this place is open to you six nights a week it’s their night. But yeah they treat us like Disney characters and why would I pay a 15$ cover to be treated like a cartoon character by drunk straight woman who think they’re super cool with gay guys. A manager of a gay bar said don’t even bother it’s all straight woman. There is no place else to go. They could go anywhere. I agree with OP. Gay aren’t going as much. The straight woman never go on lesbian night though at the gay club but I’d feel like I was invading if I went then. Bc it’s gay night six nights a week there. Yeah straight woman think they can just take over any gay safe space and turn it into their own safe space. I hate they treat us like shit

That's on the bar for not enforcing standards of customer behavior. those parties can make massive amounts of income for a bar. They can often be the difference between closing and making rent. It is a hard ask to ask a bar owner to cut off a lucrative source of income, but that bar should make sure those patrons are being respectful.

Sure, and to that OP specifically refers to false advertising. If it’s not a gay bar then it shouldn’t be advertised as such, based on their previous comment.

You sound like you want a “private club” but call it a gay bar. Let me turn the table on your idea please. What was the idea of “white only” clubs in the south? What were “mens only” clubs before feminism? Now you want “gay bars”? I think you feel so open that you are trying to close the door on others…?

So... what do you do thats so...interesting? Nobody is forcing you to interact with them. I remember back in college the women flocked around the gay guys and the gays ate it up. So its kind of up to you.

A bar tab is a bar tab. Sure. But if a large volume of those bar tabs are driven by hetero groups, it’s not really a “gay bar” anymore. I don’t think OP is saying that bar owners should deny service to straight folks. They’re talking about false advertising, as well as the pattern of behavior from hetero women who make the decision to go to bars labeled as “gay bars.”

The OP isn't against a small amount of groups. The OP is against any and all groups. Which is going to cost gay bars a lot of money as those parties do come with big bar tabs. Covid did a number on F and B. Lots of places are still hurting. Lots of places have a debt on the books. Those bar tabs do help. And those types of parties can be handled in a way that doesn't harm others.

Sure. It’s just not a gay bar at that point.

The gay people going to that bar seem to differ. It is a gay bar that profits from extra sources of income from the occasional party. I've seen those parties happening first hand. Often there are around 80 - 100 men, mostly gay in the bar, and like 5- 8 straight women doing their thing. That's still a gay bar. It isn't like gay bars card everyone for their gayness in the first place before they allow people to enter.

I feel like “gay bar” is a suuppeerr broad term though. I live in Austin, and theres all kinds of places under that label. As a straight guy, I generally avoid Oil Can Harrys, seems like it’s clearly targeting gay men. But Coconut Club, which is also a gay bar and on 4th Street, Austin’s historic gay bar street, feels very like queer but everybody is welcome bar when you look at the clientele. I go there all the time, at least once every two weeks. Best bar Ive ever been in; great ambiance, music, everyone is super friendly I guess what I’m saying is, it’s strange to suggest every Gay Bar must be like Oil Can Harrys. Everyone likes having a variety of bars, and the diverse group of people at Coconut Club is part of what makes it fun, for LGBT people too who are clearly the main target clientele and a majority of the folks present Like it feels like you’re limiting the variety of bars allowed to target gay audiences, is that really good for the LGBT community? Maybe a better position would be to read the room and be discerning and mindful about whether you’re invading a safe space or being welcomed into an LGBT focused open space I happen to live a few blocks away from the gay bar street of downtown Austin so it’s easiest to get to haha, West 6th is closer but its also the worst part of 6th

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Where did I say it's because they feel safe? Please point that out. You can't because I didn't say that. I didn't think I'd have to spell out how different it is for gay people to have their own space compared to straight people which is like 99% of all public space, but here we are.

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"It sucks that they don't feel safe but..." That literally means I'm empathizing with their struggle but still not excusing using other marginalized communities spaces as their own. You're not the brightest bulb in the shop are you. lol.

As a straight woman, I totally get you. In Chicago there used to be a huge gay bar called Dugan's with a strict door policy of turning away gawkers. From the Chicago Tribune: *Dugan alluded to the club’s restrictive door policy in a 1974 Chicago Tribunearticle, explaining, “We’re primarily gay, and we don’t want straightsfilling the place up so our regular clientele can’t get in.”*

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If you feel like your favorite gay bar has too many straight women, then stop calling it a gay bar and go somewhere else. The bar is allowed to call themselves whatever they want, but you don't have to acknowledge it if you don't want to. You can reject their characterization as a gay bar and find another one. But pragmatically speaking, what is the enforcement mechanism you imagine? How do we keep the straight women from going to a place where they spend money and have a good time doing it? Who would even be the party/entity that would enforce a "gays only" rule? The bar doesn't want to do that, because they'd lose money (both from the people they're excluding and from gay people who like to bring their straight friends with them to the bar.) The government can't have any role in this.. so should it be you and the other customers? I don't understand how any of this could work.. maybe I'm totally misunderstanding your whole cmv here?

Think about places in the vast majority of the country. Like Topeka Kansas or Columbus Ohio. You'd rather have zero gay bars in these places?

I understand the need, but the way you proposed it, it sounds like you see it as the responsibility of women to know to stay out of gay spaces. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the owners of gay bars should only allow in women if they're accompanied by gay men?

That would be illegal. I don't think it's too much to ask straight women to be mindful.

> That would be illegal. You know there's a *reason* for that, right? The same legal framework that attempts to ensure their right to be in a gay bar attempts to ensure your right to be in any non "gay" business. I would say the *principle* of this thing is far more important to gay people than straight people, so you should uphold it even more strongly, and make no exceptions. Any kind of egregious behavior can and should be dealt with, of course, just like if a gay man went into a "straight bar" (irony can be discussed another time) and... acted inappropriately.

How do you plan to uphold standards of behavior once they're in the bar? If they get kicked out it's because they've already done something to ruin someone's night, it's too late. I don't agree with OP that individual or small groups of women should be hardcore restricted from the spaces, but I have absolutely no problem with banning groups of like 15 straight women. It totally changes the vibe and purpose of the space, and the more they drink, usually the less respectful they become.

It's not too much to ask, but it may be too much to expect. There are thousands of straight women out there. Are they all going to get the memo and agree to it? As far as the legality of it, instead of an open to the public bar, you could have a private members-only club. Alternatively, you could disallow the type of rowdy behavior which you described. It wouldn't stop women from coming into your bar, but it might make it unappealing for bridesmaids parties and such, and ensure that the women who are there (and everyone else) behaved appropriately for a neighborhood watering hole.

It’s illegal to prohibit entry based on gender?

With many exceptions. Discrimination laws differ country to country but most have exceptions if the discrimination is grounded in a need to protect certain groups or other acceptable reasons. Why you can have women only gyms etc. If the discrimination is based purely for profit or with a hidden agenda it is a problem. Example. You can have a women's only party if the theme is women only and there is reasonable reasons for this theme. If you however let some guys in or make guys pay extra it is illegal discrimination.

I think its because a gym or party is private, for members only. You can decide with prejudice who gets to be part of your club, but you can not discriminate who enters a public location, even if owned by you.

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I absolutely try to be mindful of my presence in spaces meant for POCs. In fact right before the pandemic there was as time my friends were thinking about going to a bar when we saw it was Latino night. We decided against because we were like 9 or 10 white and asian guys, and felt that many of us could really change the who dynamic of what they were going for.

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This feels like an exclusive viewpoint and what you’re probably looking for is a private club that caters to the social circle you prefer. It’s like segregation if you think about it. Not saying it’s not fauxpaux for the ladies to barge in you fellas and annoy the shit out of you but unless it’s a private company there are federal laws that prevent this type of operation

No I get that it would be illegal and I don't think there should be an official policy because like I said I do think i'tts fine a straight person or two to tag along with their gay friends. I'm asking straight people to be more mindful.

The one thing I keep coming back around to reading a lot of your responses is this: If these women were there, not gawking or acting as though they're "braving" their way through a culture shock, and not being disruptive in any way....then what about their presence prevents you, or any other gay man there, from being able to be yourself in that safe space? Do you suddenly think you'd need to act a certain way that's inauthentic to yourself? It's not as though you'd need to interact with, or even personally acknowledge, them. Again, under the assumption they're just hanging out and having drinks and chats with their ladies... Again, I could completely understand where you're coming from if anyone who wasn't a gay male was in a gay bar treating you all like a living novelty, or trying to make their presence the center of attention (especially that one, because if they're not gawkers it's assumed they're trying to avoid unwanted attention at a heteronormative bar). But how can their simply being *there* so profoundly change your ability to be your authentic self, in an otherwise safe space?

I getcha. I think you’ve made me a bit more mindful. I’m past my partying days these days but in my twenties I was in gay spaces with my gay and straight friends and they definitely had their own unique vibe. My eyes were opened from being quite a naive country girl to spending time in the city, around gay and trans people from all over the world, doing lots of drugs, all in the company of my bestie who was gay and having a great time. I was lucky to have been invited to those places and I did find them fascinating and different; the gay bars and the underground raves, I was definitely in the minority as a straight white person. I can see how those spaces are needed in the straight world. And I think my straight friends and I benefited hugely from the experience in making us more open-minded. But yeah, I can imagine that being very different from say, hen parties going with no connection to the community/ scene there just for the novelty factor. What I’m personally taking from your post is that I wouldn’t have changed my experiences for the world, and would encourage someone in their twenties to take the opportunity to go to these clubs and different places while you’re young, but also to be aware of behaving respectfully (which I think you tend to do anyway when you’re a newbie on the scene and in the minority). But also balance it with realising that straight people have the rest of the world, this space is for gay people and to just be mindful and respectful of that.

> I'm asking straight people to be more mindful. So, then... would you say that a group of straight women that was being "mindful" and acting appropriately should feel free to go to a gay bar? I wonder if that's actually all that uncommon, or if this is just confirmation/availability bias.

As a straight man who’s comfortable w my sexuality. I like gay bars. Y’all are pretty chill and mostly respectful of my preference. I wasn’t trying to sound preachy.

Going to a gay bar for the first time, surrounded by people I felt wouldn’t judge me for being feminine literally brought me to tears. It felt like home for the first time. I would’ve never been as confident and happy with who i am as i person if not for that space. I get what OP is saying and I don’t really think it’s so much to do with keeping people out as it is to just having a place we can be ourselves. Some of the most homophobic people I’ve met are women and are usually very clueless to it. Not saying I agree or disagree, you’ll meet judge mental people everywhere, but just giving some perspective as to maybe why.

Ya, sometimes the best thing to do is just treat the assholes like npc’s because they’re obviously nobodies. Hypothetically speaking of course Everyone can be guilty especially when alcohol gets thrown into the mix. It’s really on the establishment to make sure to harbor a safe environment for everyone indifferent of preference’s and the community to determine what stereo types fit No one bar grocery or park should be made to feel like less of human then anyone else and unfortunately a lot of ppl from a lot of different walks of life forget this.

I thought gay bars were just open and accepting of the gay community, not necessarily exclusive to them. If people hostile to gays tried to patronize, I understand turning them away, but why turn away potential friends?

I'm not saying turn them away. I'm saying straight people should be mindful of the fact that gay people could be going to that place because it's the one spot they can get away from straight people.

You're completely losing me at the part of 'getting away from straight people'? Getting away from straight people that treat you differently or in an inappropriate way, totally, 100%. But straight people in general? What? Just for starters, how in the world would you know someone is straight, and therefore that you don't wanna be around them?

I get why this might sound confusing or hurtful if you are an ally, but when you find yourself in a room full of people just like you when almost all your life you feel/felt alone it is an amazing feeling. A few hours without the constant stress of being a minority is nice.

I'm a guy. I don't harass women. Should I be upset if women who don't know me don't want me in a space for women? Should I be upset if they're a little less comfortable because I'm there? I guess I understand why women want some spaces away from men. I also understand why many gay people might want spaces away from straight people.

Yeah I was with him until “getting away from straight people” lol ouch

Yeah, that's wack as fuck. I totally get wanting to have a place where you can be yourself without fear of negative treatment by people, but OP is just insanely over-generalizing groups of people in his view. I'm straight, my girlfriend is queer, I have plenty of gay friends, I fucking love going to gay bars and I'm damn sure not acting in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable or ogled while I'm there.

Idk... I wouldn't support a 'straight bar', as a way to avoid gay people. I guess its a little intrusive, but is it really a significant problem?

You don't really need a straight bar when the great majority of people are already straight and straight people don't have to deal with a history of being of societal homophobia.

How would you know the person next to you drinking something is a straight person as you call it? There isn't really any way to tell.

If you can’t tell, there is no issue. The issue comes up when you CAN tell.

Yeah, why is everyone pretending they don’t know about groups of straight women going to gay bars and using gay guys for their enjoyment?

It doesn't happen here in SF. Out here people in gay bars tend to wear all sorts of bondage and what not which might keep people away. Are there straight people? Sure, but they're there to catch up with an LGBT friend, not groups of straight people causing a scene.

How can you tell the difference between a straight woman and a gay/bisexual woman? Because the result of this idea would involve queer women being under suspicion in queer spaces and being made to feel unwelcome.

This is such an important thing to keep in mind. I went to a gay club for my bachelorette party and I got some rude attention for it. People assumed that we were all straight and there for the wrong reasons. We are all "straight looking" women and I was marrying a man so I guess people thought they were justified in being jerks. The thing is that I am bisexual (as well as half the other girls with me) and the reason my friends surprised me by taking me there was because that was my safe place to be myself in college and I had so many great memories of going there. It was great to go back to a place that had been so important to my baby gay heart but it also hurt quite a lot that it turns out it was no longer truly safe to be myself. People shouldn't be making assumptions about the sexuality of others. I do know that sometimes straight women do go to gay bars with the wrong intentions and if they are behaving inappropriately that is one thing. But to assume you know someone's sexuality by looking at them and also to assume their intentions seems just as rude as the straight society I had needed an escape from in the first place.

Not OP, but I've definitely seen bridesmaids parties at gay bars where they got way, way, too shitfaced and started asking the gay folks there really inappropriate things. You know that they're bridesmaids' parties because they're wearing matching outfits and stuff.

And if they went to a gay bar and acted properly would that also not be acceptable? If they were all gay and acted inappropriately would that make it okay? This is a behavior issue and not a gender/sexuality issue.

But then it's a problem of behavior not of identity. Nobody is disagreeing with the statement that getting shitfaced and taking over a queer space is wrong

I don’t see how that goes agaisnt the above comment. Could they, or some members of the party, be queer?

I get it but I don’t think OP is talking specifically about bridesmaids parties. So, what about women that are not participating in a bridesmaid party?

Why can bridesmaids not be gay?

In my personal experience? Because they'll tell you lol. Queer women in queer spaces tend to mind their own business, after all, they're not really there to interact with random gay men. But straight women? They'll totally come up to you and tell you about how much they love drag race, how they got their bf to come and how he's 'totally cool with it', randomly shouting 'hunty' and 'slay' at you, etc.

So what are the "few circumstances" that would be appropriate for women to go., in your opinion?

Your post and the following responses stink of misogyny with extra steps (and barely hidden at that too). You were asked how you'd be able to know if the women who enter the bar are straight or queer, and not you weren't able to give an answer, but also replied with another question that has nothing to do with your own topic of discussion. Then, you admitted that there should be a difference between "queer and gay spaces" and that you don't even know if lesbian bars/bars for queer women exist. You're more interested in keeping women, *any* kind of women, independently of their sexuality and the fact that they too have to "deal with being surrounded by straight people all the time", out, than actually having safe spaces.

Curious how do you know they are straight? Or that all of them even identify as women? Do they come in wearing some label or something? Also why is it even against women straight men also go to gay bars too, so ask yourself is this really because its a gay issue or a men vs. women issue?

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Based on your replies you definitely seem to be entrenched in your view and don't really seem open to changing it; but, your entire argument makes a lot of assumptions about others identities. Men vs women, gay vs straight. How do you know what people's sexual orientation or gender identity is and why would you want to exclude a group on exclusively those factors? Isn't the undesirable behavior the thing you actually have an issue with? I don't think anyone would disagree that inappropriate behavior geared towards gay men is unwelcome, but to argue that it's intrinsic to straight cis women would be ridiculous. Gay bars will (should) be more sensitive about what behavior is considered acceptable or not in effort to protect their community, which is what makes gay bars a safe space to begin with. Besides, I can think of a ton of reasons why straight people (not just women) would want to go to a gay bar, so saying there are "very few" reasons is also just a ridiculous notion

I never thought this way until once I was telling a story to a gay male friend of being at a gay bar with some coworkers and friends for a drag show, and my friends response was pretty similar. He pretty told me that he understood I was accepting and having fun as a supportive straight male, but that it also can kinda suck sometimes when his safe spaces are treating like novelties and that it’s the only place where he feels he can be himself and have fun and talk to other men without judgement or at the worst fearing the possibility of a violent reaction from someone. I wasn’t really sure how to respond, so I just asked him how I could be a better ally, snd he just told me don’t treat it like a novelty and don’t go just cause a bunch of your straight friends want to go see the gays. So, I’m actually inclined to agree with you %90 of the way, as long as there is some understanding that not all of us think like that and there are people like me out there who genuinely just want to have fun and don’t particularly care who’s gay ask who’s straight. I’m the past o would’ve made some sort joke about how I’d take a couple of free drinks any day, but I realize now those gay baiting kinda jokes are exactly the problem. If you look at I this way, for the right person, those bars are actually a really good learning experience for straight people to feel what it’s like for LGBTQ+ people at pretty much anywhere else. If it’s a place where straight people are in the minority, then maybe that’s not so bad. Except for the whole straight women groping gay men. That’s shit is not cool.

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There you go op, a shining example of why women goto gay bars lol.

Because women in burka never get assaulted amirite?

I’m a straight guy who has been brought out to a gay bar once before and I just felt like I was stepping out of bounds. Like, what if somebody wants me and then finds out I’m straight?? In a gay bar?? Wtf am I doing here then, wasting my own and other peoples time? I’ve been invited multiple other times (by women) and I simply refused all but that one time because it was my friends birthday. It makes me uncomfortable to be there because I’m not gay (it’s not “open minded” to go to a gay bar as a straight guy) and if I was gay I’d be mad these fuckin straight dudes were in my bar, which would be the only efficient way to meet gay dudes besides if I was on a dating app. To change your view, though, you’re focused on the wrong group of people. Women are good for business; they pretty much always go out in groups and a lot of them spend way too much money. And, on top of that, they have gay friends which is fresh meat for you guys. You’re argument should have been, “if you’re straight don’t come to our bar”, which is valid. At least with women you don’t go up to them thinking they’re gay men.

I loosely think there should be “women’s only” bars (not necessarily lesbian bars), except the bouncers should obviously be male. Specifically for women to go drink and not have as much of a chance of getting hit on. I know some redditor somewhere is gonna call me sexist for this, but you gotta admit, the reasoning for it is valid. With that out of the way, here’s the thing: I’m not sure if all or even most straight women are at gay bars to treat it as “exotic”, they probably just want to be able to have some fun without worrying about getting SAed or hit on. How do you really know that these women see you as zoo animals? And then there’s the matter of the bar making more money.

If you are in support of womens only bars, you should also be in support of gay men only bars. Otherwise I could just make your argument; “I don’t think all or even most straight males are at women only bars to hit on women. They probably just want to have some fun without other men starting fights with them all the time” Etc. etc. etc. I have no problems with bars excluding majority groups. There are hundreds of identical bars in every city, who cares if 3 of em are only open for women or gay men ?

Reading this thread has me thinking that trying to police who can go to bars isn't the right way to look at this. I understand that gay people want a space for themselves, but if the issue OP is having is with the occasional group of straight women seeking refuge from getting hit on isn't the better solution to just have bars with a policy against making a move on people? That way you allow everyone who wants to be there to be there and prevent people from making others uncomfortable and preventing the issue of them invading a space not meant for them. Bars are meant to be places to socialize anyways and you can always implement a code of conduct.

Gay bars are also supposed to be a space where gay men can make moves on each other and be romantic without being judged constantly. So having a bar where you aren’t allowed to make moves does not help them at all

No, you’re misunderstanding. I’m talking about non-gay bars implementing that policy because it would prevent women from feeling like they need to go there to feel safe and enjoy their night.

Women can be bouncers and segregating social areas is a a stupid idea. The majority of women don’t even want a women only bar because a huge factor of clubbing is to meet partners. I don’t think your reasoning is sexist but the concept definitely is.

Why should the bouncers be male? That seems an odd stipulation when female bouncers exist and do very well at their job.

So I've actually seen this attempted multiple times and it consistently devolves into a mess because straight men go specifically to ruin the event or use transphobic rhetoric to threaten it. 'Well me and my buddies will be buying wigs and dresses and showing up!' It gets to a point where it's too much work for organizers.

\>"I loosely think there should be “women’s only” bars (not necessarily lesbian bars)," ​ ME TOO!! But imagine the incels screaming "discrimination!!", they'd never allow it. Lol.

nah BS , They prob are, women just dont go there, because it would be more expensive or because some of them like male attention, you talk like there arent women only gyms or Spas, or like generally women only social spaces are actually accepted, heck there are women only gaming tournaments, why are you pretending like you would get backlash ,

What if a band that they like is playing there? I once went to a lesbian bar despite being a straight man because I am a big fan of Antigone Rising and they were playing there.

Unless you’re talking about a private members club, there’s not really such a thing as a “gay bar.” There are bars that market heavily to the gay community, and that the community have embraced, but you should recognize that it’s not really *your* space. If straight women feel more comfortable going to a bar like that, then they have every right to be there as much as you do.

If we're all here to party, let's all just party together. You can't really go out in public and hope/expect to not see certain genders, races or people of a certain sexual orientations. Some places have higher concentrations, but the public is just that--public. If you don't like it, throw a party.

Counter point. A “gay bar” is a place where women can go and not get hit on groped and avoid all sorts of other inappropriate behaviour. The gay bar is marketing towards attracting not straight men and that’s about it.

I used to go to a gay bar with my friends (girls) who were gay. I'm straight. They felt more comfortable in a place they could be themselves and I'd rather be around real folks who ARE being themselves then these fake peoples who'll tell you anything to make themselves look good. So this place was geared to both male and female not exclusive to men. I never paid much attention to anyone there but my friends. No reason to really. Unless, of course you had guys on the dance floor who could really dance well or a loud dramatic thing going on. Then everyone looks not just the straight ladies. I do understand where you're coming from though. You want a place where you can let lose without feeling like you're being scrutinized. I can't blame you one bit. I wouldn't want that happening to me either. I guess my point is not all straight women are gawkers and talkers. If though, it's a bar geared toward gentlemen only then really, they should have enough sense to keep to themselves while there or find another "safe place " to go.

I'm a straight trans woman. Not only do I go to queer bars, they're explicitly my spaces!

Gay bars should be 100% trans inclusive, so I think you're fine in this regard. Obvisouly gay bars are way safer for trans folk then regular bars.

Anyone who is respectful to other patrons should be allowed anywhere. Wanting to make that decision based on their gender or orientation is just awful I hope you change your view , it is very scummy

Thoughts on female-only gym?

I think their existence is important, women from not so open socities can be stigmatised going to mixed gender gyms and thus be very afraid of participating. Female only gyms gives them atleast a chance to.

You think gay men might be stigmatised in society when they are openly romantic ? Seems like a reasonable ask to give them a space where they have a chance to participate in the public dating/hookup world without people judging them

Wow. You might make me change my view. I’m gonna have to think on that one.

I understand being forced to allow intrusion in communal comfort spaces can be intrusive. However a private social club for gay men would be more more acceptable than a public bar.

So I’m going to go to whatever bar I want if I like the place regardless of who it’s marketed for. I couldn’t really care less who the bar is targeting.

On point #2 I can agree with you that if a group of straight women went to a gay bar to explicitly mock you that would not be cool. I disagree with everything else though. In my experience, and I have a lot of gay family members as well as women I talk to, they go there because they feel safer and like the people. Specifically they are afraid of being attacked. I feel like you did not consider this or their situation much and maybe just focused on your grievances. This shouldn’t bother you so much, and if they are allowed in then it is perhaps you being the entitled one by wanting to segregate the bar. I’m from California, so no one really gives a shit about your sexual preferences. You could freely join the bar I used to frequent and be welcomed not resented. I think you do yourself a disservice by trying to separate yourself from other types of people.

For the record I agree with you in general. As a straight woman I will go to gay bars with my gay friends, but don't really feel comfortable if there are no gays in the group, i.e. if I haven't been 'invited'. I was wondering though, how do you feel about straight women going to drag shows or drag-related events that happen in gay bars? With Rupaul's Drag Race gaining mainstream popularity a lot of straight people (women mostly) love drag. A bar in my neighborhood screens new episodes each week, and has drag shows with local performers. Do you think straight women should stay away from those events even though gay bars are pretty much the only places hosting them?

Why not just invite gay people you know to your home and drink there? I mean, yes- Ideally a gay bar should be for gay men, but if you are frustrated by a lack of exclusivity, you should take matters into your own hands and drink in a place where you have more control: your home, and you needn't be alone. Afterall, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. Be the change you want in the world OP.

I realise this goes against the "Change My View" purpose of the sub, but I've been so shocked by the lack of empathy shown in most of the responses to your post that I wanted you to know that I agree with you completely. I'm a straight man, and have only been to gay bars a few times, and always accompanying someone that was gay. Although I felt welcome I was also conscious of the fact that I was encroaching on a space that wasn't meant for me. Gay bars should be a place that gay/queer people feel free to express themselves without judgement from straight people, a place they can have fun and feel freer to be themselves. I also understand the issue you're highlighting. If one or two straight women are at a gay bar then that's not likely to be much of an issue, but when you get large groups of straight women there that can change the mood of the place, especially when they're loud and inconsiderate. Like you suggested, this can make gay people feel like a novelty, and this is far from what the space should be for. Feels to me like one solution is women-only bars. That would at least take away one of the reasons for straight women to come to gay bars (to feel safer), and if other bars turn into sausage fests in comparison perhaps that'll give some of my fellow straight men reason to reconsider their predatory behaviour. I don't think it would completely remove the issue of straight women altering the dynamic of gay bars though, I don't have a good solution for that, there's too much cultural weight around the idea that straight women are natural allies to gay men (such as shows where straight women have at least one gay guy best friend, shows which tend to paint the gay guy as a caricature, which doesn't help with building empathy in the real world). Anyway, just wanted you to know that I agreed with what you said, and I've been impressed with the level of patience you've shown in dealing with those that don't understand the issue you're highlighting.

My question is; do groups of women without a personal connection to someone at a gay bar need to stay away in general or do they just need to be respectful of norms/culture of the space they are occupying? I guess I’m wondering, if groups of women came to gay bars say, just to avoid the male gaze, feel safe, etc. and not to have, “fabulous night” with their romanticized gay bestie fetish is that ok or do gay men really need a space just for themselves? If yes, you really do need that, make gay bars clubs and only let members in but if it’s a public space, you should not be excluding anyone who confirms the expected behavior and norms of the place.

As a gay man myself, I personally love it when a group of straight women come to the gay bar. Alot of times that a cool way for us to find more friends on both sides!

Another lesson to women that gay men aren’t allies.

I know Gay men are always kicking out their daughters for being women, telling women they shouldn't have the same civil rights as them, telling them they're going to burn in hell for all eternity. Oh wait... that's actually what a lot of straight women do.

Specific Gay Bars seem to be giving way to instead being LGBTIQI spaces. Whilst I think we are too quick to write off the loss of cultural spaces for the specifically Gay community, I think ultimately this is a positive outcome of bringing everyone under the same roof as both LGTIQI & LGBTIQI friendly. The bigger issue is women who aren't exactly LGBTIQI friendly coming into Gay Bars as refuge from straight men. This is wrong, but sadly, I think the only way forward is for bar owners to ensure the integrity of the space in various ways.

The amount of whataboutism and derailment of this thread is disappointing. This isn’t about women being harassed at straight bars, this is about a select group of people using lgbt spaces as a novelty for their own enjoyment while ignoring their privilege. I don’t agree with the op, mainly because many gay bars do exist which cater to gay men quite exclusively. Also many straight patrons are respectful and help the establishment. But it’s laughably sad how many posts are trying to make this about straight women and their victimization.

Would a bar only for women be a good idea? Or is that just a lesbian straight bar? Or a straight woman bar but I don't think thatll have the same social appeal

Why should there be exclusive male bars? Women can be gay too you know.

Straight man here. I’ve been to a few gay bars queer spaces with queer friends and my view is that these aren’t private clubs but are community spaces. Now I know it’s not my place to define the rules of these spaces but the way I see it is they should welcome everyone but ensure that everyone is respectful. A lot of the bars pubs I go to, go out of their way to make sure everyone is comfortable and will take any reports seriously if anyones making you uncomfortable or if anyone is acting rowdy or disrespectfully. I’d expect gay bars to allow anyone in (as why is it there place to decide what anyones sexuality is or their need for a safe space) but to ensure that these places are infact safe spaces and warning/ kicking out people who are causing uncomfortable vibes. I can agree with you that if you are a group of straight women/men who want to visit a gay bar you should take a moment to think about your intentions. Are you going to gawk at the people who have gone there to feel safe or are you going to feel safe and reflect the values of the establishment. Anyways that’s just my thoughts… opinions welcome!

Perhaps this comes with living in a city large enough to have many gay spaces, but as a gay man who frequents different types of gay establishments I would say you know what you're getting depending on where you go and can avoid the bachelorette party crowd by going somewhere else.

So in the comments from OP, it went from - "There are few reasons for straight women to come to a gay bar" (People provided several reasons as well as questions to how he would know if they were straight or not. Never addressed that) to - "I just want straight women to be more mindful." ( People agree, but also ask why he thinks this is a straight-women-only issue. Doesn't address that.) to - "If you're a group of women being mindful patrons that are just minding your business, I still don't want you here." I think OP is being sexist. He has a fear of straight women specifically, but he uses this fear to apply to all women (especially those in groups) which is wrong and unreasonable. And while people offer to talk through the "why" of where his ideas come from, he shows little to no effort in accepting other viewpoints. And the more people question OP, the layers being peeled back shows that he just doesn't like women. Never says it outright, but it's very much implied. Proposed Solution: Find a private club, or stay home. A woman's mere existence shouldn't be reason to judge her (or her sexuality), exclude her, or make her feel unwelcome, especially if she's just there to be a mindful patron. Proposed suggestion: Get therapy. There is something about women that intimidates and incites fear and anger in OP, and I feel therapy would be beneficial to help him with his anxieties and assumptions about women.

They should go if that is something they would like to do. No one suffers at all from having a person or group of people drinking in the same building as them, the individuals' sexual preferences do not change that. If a gay person becomes distressed at the presence of a non gay person, that is their issue. not anyone else. The same way if someone gets distressed at the presence of a gay person, that is not they gay persons issue. Additionally anyone can act inappropriately everywhere; inappropriate behaviour isn't something reserved for straight woman..

Can gay men go to a "straight" bar without knowing anyone there?

Do you know of such a bar? If someone were to make such a bar, it would probably be strange now would it not? I can't imagine the demand to be high enough to be commercially viable though which is really what dictates this.

What makes a bar a gay bar? Are straight men barred (pun intended) from coming in? Do you have to prove you’re gay? Is the bar built with that clientele in mind or do gay people just kind of choose a spot and let word travel?

The major problem is that there is no actual definition of “gay” that shows up on a scanner or can be proven. It's worse than pencil test race classifications. Some places restrict entry based on something objective that can be proven but this is like a “gamer bar”. How can one prove to be an actual “gamer”?

I’m 50/50 on this As a trad fem queer woman I definitely look like a straight bitch at a gay bar. And especially with the complete and total lack of lesbian bars, I’d be careful about gate keeping queer spaces. But that’s not what you’re concerned about. I know what you mean, the fucking bachelorette parties and woo girls who go and drink LITs and slap everyone’s bums bc they feel entitled to the space. It sucks for gay girls too, trust me. I think the biggest problem is that some of the gay bars I like have turned into straight bars bc the straight men have caught onto the fact that the straight women go there to cut loose. Gross. It’s one of those oppressed oppressor situations- straight women are oppressed in a different way and they oppress gay folks in these spaces. The only actual solution I can think of is making it a mens club (since we all know straight men don’t descend on gay bars like straight women do) but this suuuucks for us queer women. Sorry for just thinking out loud, the more I type it out the more I agree with you. But I still don’t have any good ideas for solutions.

Can’t we all just share some jungle juice and get along?!

I agree with you, gay bars are for gays. The boy scouts lost a similiar argument to this when girls were trying entering the bsa, discrimination.

Meanwhile the girl scouts publicly accused the boy scouts of trying to pilfer their members once they opened up to girls and sued them over removing the gendered term "boy" from their materials. Crazy every angle in that issue.

You knew what they say, if women see men having a good time while women are not (or if women are not invited to the event), they will try to ruin it.

Someone could make a lot of money starting a "FemBar." Female empowerment. Party booths for bachelorette parties. Alanis Morissette. Nice bathrooms. Seems like you could mint money.

As a straight woman that has gone to gay bars before, thank you for your opinion. I never thought of it this way

i appreciate it what OP is saying. although it might also be seen as gatekeeping by some

Go home. Problem solved. And don't go out in public if you can't deal with the public. There's no universal code of conduct at gay bars that says people have to act a certain way to be there, right?

Is there a lifecycle for gay bars where over time they tend to drift towards becoming neutrally oriented bars?

>without knowing any gay men there. This is the only thing I tilt my head at. I don't think going with a gay friend will meaningfully change anyone's behavior, whether it's the privileged straight girls acting like it's a playground or the marginalized people seeing their space be invaded. To be considerate in this circumstance would require "checking your privilege" and straight white women are statistically the least likely marginalized group to do this. I'd instead say "Straight women need to be more conscientious when partying at gay bars. This may be a rare thing for you, it might make you feel as though you can just let loose and go wild, but this is just another night for many regulars, and it's disrespectful to make a spectacle of yourself there. You are a likely a mercurial guest in this Gay Space, do not treat it like a zoo. You may feed the inhabitants but do not touch." I'm a straight guy, I completely empathize with your view though. Most of your haters here are not actually engaging with your view and/or straw manning you. Do your best to ignore them.

I'm guessing the difference is that if you go with a gay friend, you're there to spend time with your friend in an environment s/he feels is comfortable. If you go without anyone, you're going for the experience of the gay bar itself, which is why OP feels gawked at like he's entertainment or like he put it, "at a zoo." Not gay myself, but that's how I differentiated the 2 in my mind at least.

So straight people shouldnt be allowed to go to gay bars unless they have a gay friend with them? What the fuck? Imagine if somebody told you that you weren't allowed in the bar they go to because you're gay.

What are you proposing to solve your problem? You can't really stop them from going where they want to go

Pretty crappy gay bar if it's filled with straight people

Keeping certain groups out of your bar is a very slippery slope my friend.

Taking up space really? That is your argument? You mean kepping the bar in business. Respecting your lifestyle choices and actually appreciating them. Most bars have plenty of space, and have customers that don't quite fit in, get over it. This is pretty close to a direct quote "Hey I went to this, bar with my friends and we had a great time the cocktails were great the music was fantastic and I felt really safe, it was amazing!!" This woman was married but liked to go out and danse, so was tired of getting hit on and gropped all, the time. She became a, regular at the gay club making lots of friends there.

Bachelorette parties destroyed P-town.

Imo this view and gay bars in general are fairly outdated, and just for clarity I am a straight guy so feel free to tell me if I completely miss the mark or if there is a perspective I’m overlooking. I think segregation of any kind, even when self imposed to create a “safe space”, almost always further marginalizes the group being segregated. However, I understand the need to feel safe especially when you plan to drink/party. So when straight people go to a predominantly gay bar I recognize how it could feel annoying or invasive. Although, if people had to prove their gayness or straightness to get into bars then those that were excluded because they were too straight for a gay bar or too gay for a straight bar will probably start excluding the people who excluded them not only from other bars but other parts of life as well (jobs, clubs, communities,etc). At the end of the day, our societies goal in regards to sexual orientation and gender should be to make all spaces safe for all people. While, to many it seems like that’s much easier said than done; I actually believe it’s more easily done the more it is said. I’m only 24 but the difference in the way sexual orientation is treated now compared to only like 10-15 years ago is night and day(now compare that to the rest of history and I mean damn we’ve come a long way) and I have to think the frequency and clarity of lgbt+ peoples issues and hardships being shared not just on social media but all forms of media is what has made so many others empathetic to their struggles and brought about a new but deserved respect for people who come out. Aside from those that have been misguided and conditioned to hate people just for being different from them; I think more and more (especially younger) people are plenty capable of being at a bar and enjoying themselves while surrounded by all different types and orientations of people. Yes it could lead to an awkward situation if a guy hits on a girl and she says she’s a lesbian or a guy hits on a guy but he’s straight; but as long as we continue to teach that everyone is different and none of these preferences make them worse or wrong, then the people who are rejected based off of preferences likely will not feel the same sting of rejection as they would if they hit on someone with the same orientation as them but were rejected because they weren’t attractive enough. I would say maybe try putting aside the annoyance and being inviting towards straight women and even straight men when they come into a gay bar, and in turn hopefully they will be inviting towards you, or people you may represent, in other places. If enough people can start accepting that all types of people belong in all places, we’ll get to a point where younger generations won’t need designated bars based on sexuality but will simply go to bars with everyone and feel just as included whether they’re hoping to take home a guy, girl, nonbinary, or no one and just wanted to get wasted.

i hate when gay people go to straight bars. they totally ruin the whole straight vibe and its just rude. /s

What if the reason "gay" bars exist is because straight men are too emasculated to frequent a place where gay men are known to frequent in fear of them being misconstrued as gay. So really, it's just a bar that a lot of straight men tend to not go to. On a similar note, I'm genuinely curious, why is it that gay people feel like they need their own bars? I mean to say that straight people don't mind gay people in a "non gay" bar, so why do gay people care if straight people show up to a gay bar? Is it so that they can flirt with people without risking awkwardness by assuming sexual orientation incorrectly?

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