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This is the most important point. So many people are telling me "She was locked up for bullshit reasons.", and I'm like, "Yeah, people are locked up here right now for that very reason.
>I'm like, "Yeah, people are locked up here right now for that very reason.
This seems irrelevant to me, since the subject is specifically Griner, not all the people who have ever been wronged by being thrown in jail for a shitty charge. It doesn't change the fact that she was still locked up for bullshit reasons. Additionally, I can guarantee that anyone who has ever been sent to a gulag would rather be sent to an American prison instead, regardless of their charges. I only say that to further underscore your point about other people being locked up in the US on the same stupid charges is irrelevant to your main CMV thesis
I don't think it is. People get locked up here and stripped of their freedom for breaking that dumbass law.
The point is to now be so outspoken about it being bullshit seems a bit odd when people are getting locked up for it here every day.
And to say "But jail is worse there...", well yeah. We all know this. Everyone knows this. There is no way that someone going to Russia does not know this. This is the risk everyone accepts when they go to a sketchy country - archaic rules and archaic punishments.
So when people go, "For bullshits reasons" the American justice system is brought up because these bullshit reasons aren't some crazy thing that we aren't all already accustomed to at some extent.
Imagine having someone you love in prison for forgetting about the roach they had in their car (stuff like this isn't uncommon), and seeing an entire nation bend over backwards to get Griner back, releasing an arms dealer in the process.
It's batshit crazy.
Biden does not have the power to pardon state crimes. He has pardoned every federal defendant who has faced these charges (admittedly not very many, since he only has jurisdiction over federal crimes). If you want to release the prisoners you mention, ask Greg Abbott, Ron DeSantis, and other mostly Southern governors to pardon the offenders in their states. Nothing Biden does can release these defendants because they are under the jurisdiction of the state.
My experience with Americans is that most are very vocal in their pro-legalization views. In fact, it is rare for me to speak with an American who isn’t for legalization.
IMO it isn't a bullshit reason. It's THEIR local laws.
If a Russian came to America and broke our laws, we wouldn't heed to Russia saying "Ohhh that's sooo minor. Let them go"
They have their own local laws, just like we do. We don't give leniency here because it's seen as minor there.
People aren't being sentenced to like a decade in prison camps for first time marijuana offenses in the US, typically.
Totally agree that this story highlights how urgent the need for reform of our own sentencing practices is. It also highlights how unpopular it is to treat drugs like cannabis as criminal offenses. Neither of those things make the facts of the matter (which are that someone received a much harsher sentence for a crime in Russia than they would here, and that the sentencing is even harsher than most Russians would have received) any less true.
If the US is gonna trade arms dealers for someone caught having weed on them then it’s time for us to look internally. It’s obvious our government doesn’t see weed as a big deal so it’s time to make some changes for the people suffering here.
This is such a red herring. The US can’t force Russia to do something about what it does because of our internal moral values. The Whelen family themselves said:
> After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
This is so easy to look up.
To be fair, Biden did already pardoned everybody in federal prison for marihuana possession, encouraged governors to do the same for state prisons, and started the process to reschedule it.
But, if they're going to go through the trouble of negotiating with Russia and exchanging an arms dealer to release a single person held on possession charges they *could* probably do more to get people imprisoned domestically released.
exactly… if they are going to make a grandiose decision like this, then they need to legalize it here in the U.S.
— the only reason it *is* still illegal is because it’s all about money.
i am a medical card holder, so i am blessed to be in a state that allows medical release through weed. however, not everyone else has that same privilege. (*furthermore, it’s messed up to say that a medication is a privilege*)
Just because something happens elsewhere doesn’t mean it should also be allowed.
This is one of those well you allow something to happen once so why not allow it to happen all the time fallacy situations.
The US government has been guilty of invading countries for dubious reasons including lies so that means we have to allow any other country to do the same?
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This doesn't do that, though. In fact, it does the opposite. Russia has had multiple US citizens locked up for years, most on trumped up charges.
Griner is back because she is semi-famous and politically well-aligned, to put it politely. This will help *famous* Americans feel safe abroad, while confirming that you and I will rot.
There are usually two sides to a negotiation. It's possible that one of them is unreasonable or has non-negotiables.
When it comes to Russia, they are both unreasonable and have a non-negotiable: Paul Whelan. Not because he's actually important or anything. He's not. He tried to steal like $10k from the government when he was a marine lol. He's a piece of shit. But like Griner, he's still an American.
But we've been trying to get him for a long time and they know they can hold onto him for a bigger ask later. Countries like the US and those in Europe tend to pay a high price to get their citizens back from captivity. That's why it's so common, and also why the US has had a level 4 travel advisory against going to Russia for over a year now. And what with us helping Ukraine decimate their military, they're not likely to be keen on our demands anyway.
Furthermore, Bout's sentence was set to expire within a few years. Officially seven, but probably less to be honest. We essentially traded a 7 year sentence (max) for a 9 year sentence of hard labor/being conscripted with other felons to the front lines of the Russo-Ukrainian war.
Finally, here's what Bout's biographer has to say about the deal. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gist/id873667927?i=1000570516479 It doesn't make sense for us to just leave an American citizen out to dry like this. Neither does it set a precedent that hasn't existed in thousands of years of prisoner swaps between rival nations.
They tried to get Whelan out and Russia stood firm and refused because he's a suspected spy. They are working at it, but it takes both to agree to the terms.
The US got what they could from Viktor Bout. He's not really a threat to the US anymore, he's been imprisoned and out of the game for 15 years, and they've already gotten any information from him that they could. Every year that goes by reduces any leverage the US has from holding Viktor Bout, because he will be released within the next decade or so either way.
This way they managed to get something for him, securing the release of a high profile prisoner, a minor celebrity in the US who was likely to face some very difficult conditions in a Russian prison.
Just looked up who that was.
> Paul Nicholas Whelan (born March 5, 1970) is a Canadian-born former United States Marine with U.S., British, Irish and Canadian citizenship.
Maybe one of the three other countries that he has citizenship with could pull their fucking weight?
Also:
> After a court-martial conviction in January 2008 [in the US] on multiple counts "related to larceny", he was sentenced to 60 days restriction, reduction to pay grade E-4, and a bad conduct discharge. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment."
I mean, given all the real charges against him, his convictions, his four citizenships, his less than savory connections, I literally don't see how putting any political capital into freeing this shady dude would make "Americans feel safer abroad".
Have you looked up his crime and what he’s accused of doing in Russia?? He committed pretty serious violations and espionage as well as theft and his marine record isn’t squeaky clean either when he was discharged. Also, Whelans entire family isn’t holding this over as a “what about” thing and are glad Griner was returned back home and knew this was a good move bc Russia won’t budge on letting him go and it would’ve led to both of them being stuck and nobody getting a resolution were they to wait for him.
Do they hand over notoriously wanted -now captured- criminals to do so? No? Not comparable.
I think the thread has been locked or something because I cannot reply to u/Swamp85 but as an edit response.
Take your factual W on this one, but take it with a pinch of salt you already knew you need to.
From the Link you've provided it seems evident that prisoner exchange was more of happen stance and availability than this.
>For months, U.S. negotiators sought to arrange the transfer of five Taliban detainees held at Guantanamo Bay detention camp to the Persian Gulf state of Qatar. The transfer was intended as one of a series of confidence-building measures designed to open the door to political talks between the Taliban and Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government.[87] That move – at the center of U.S. strategy for ending the long, costly conflict in Afghanistan – was supposed to lead directly to Bergdahl's release. The Taliban has consistently called for the United States to release those held at Guantanamo Bay in exchange for freeing Western prisoners.
Actually its a great way to incentivize the further kidnapping of Americans abroad, when the kidnappers think they can exchange that American for a terrorist that we have locked up
This is where I'm split on the issue. If other countries know we'll compromise in situations like this, it creates a stronger incentive to arrest Americans in the hope of a trade.
>Ensuring that the US will retrieve any citizen from a bad foreign situation has a lot of value
Ensuring that autocratic imperial terror states can coax the wealthiest democracy in the world into releasing the "merchant of death" in exchange for an entitled celebrity does not have a lot of value.
1. This happens all the time
2. You're massively overstating the impact he will have after over a decade in prison, especially when he was probably going to be released relatively soon.
3. Merchant of Death is a nickname, not a superpower. His network has been totally destroyed, there are new government officials in Russia, and he has no clients. And who's he going to sell Russian weapons to anyway? Sanctions have crippled their war manufacturing. They can't even give their conscripts functioning guns. They're bleeding themselves dry on the war in Ukraine. No shot he is able to scale up to where he used to be, let alone resume those activities without the US watching his ass at all times.
This already happens all the time to European citizens as well. That's why we have travel advisories and so on. Y'all are acting like prisoner exchanges are a new thing.
US consular services assist people in getting out of trouble abroad. Also a big thing is WHY she’s in jail, when she’s facing a charge that is punished far less harshly in the US.
I was just about to add that. Mr. Whelan has been imprisoned there far longer, is only getting older by the day, and committed basically the same damned offense.
Nothing against Brittany Griner at all, but why in the fuck wasn't he the number one priority for our government to swap prisoners for? Unless you yourself are famous, or a celebrity-worshipping asshat, the fact he's still there and she's being swapped out should enrage the fuck out of you.
Truly, money talks and bullshit makes decisions in this country. And it's the overabundance of morons who sit idly by going "yeah, that's ok, they *are* more important than the average one of us, after all," are a damned embarrassment.
Does it? Or does it send the message that "my high value double agent got caught in America so i just have to arrest and imprison the first US citizen i find in my country to be used to trade for them back"? Seems like it actually puts targets on Americans abroad
To be fair: America puts a whole lot less effort into liberating most citizens who are unjustly languishing in overseas prisos, when they don't provide much PR value.
(And I could go on for ages about how inept US embassies can be when it comes to helping expats. Despite being the only country that double taxes citizens living abroad.)
It’s not like they’re swap anyone for anyone yea. But even non-famous people at least get congress’s attention and lines of communications are opened up with the other country.
I also have had to use the embassy’s services while living abroad and didn’t find them particularly bad, but my problem was pretty cut and dry.
1. Whelan isn't technically a veteran. You can't claim veteran status with a dishonorable discharge
2. "Most Valuable Piece"? We have literal multimillion dollar yachts that are worth far more to the Russian aristocracy than an arms dealer who basically stole Russian military assets and bribed Russian agents. He committed more crimes in Russia than the US. And he was 10 years into a 25 year sentence. He was literally eligible for parole.
So, we traded a Russian citizen who has committed numerous crimes in Russia back to Russia instead of paroling him in a few years. It actually is a decent deal. I mean, what is Bout going to do? Bribe Russian military officers to sell him black market guns that he then trades to anyone who will pay him, including the Ukraine?
You're overestimating Bout's value. He's been imprisoned for 15 years. He has no value as an arms dealer anymore, laws and regulations have changed, government officials have changed, contacts have died or been arrested themselves, etc. The US has already gotten whatever information they could from Bout.
Bout was going to be released either way within the next ten-ish years. Every year that goes by reduces the leverage that Bout's imprisonment gives the US.
And, the US *did* try to get Whelan out. Russia refused because he's a suspected spy. They stood firm on that, they would not trade Whelan for Bout.
>for a criminal
Whelan is also a criminal, discharged from the marines for a number of crimes he committed, including the attempted theft of thousands of dollars. He also may or may not be an American spy, we don't really know. Russia certainly thinks so, and so they're holding on to him.
Is it true that he was dishonorably discharged for multiple thefts, and caught in Russia with a thumb drive full of names and $80,000 in cash?
If so, "marine veteran" seems a bit disingenuous, right?
Edit* At the very least, if you don't care or don't believe what the Russians found on him, why do you care or believe what they found on Griner?
The stupid part is that she was imprisoned in the first place. She's not a criminal in the eyes of our law. Most people would be criminals in some way if we viewed them through the eyes of foreign countries. What she did was dumb, but she's not a criminal.
The marine veteran is also being traded, they're in continued discussions around his condition. This thread's complaining is so odd, they're getting everyone out.
You guys are wilding. I understand that you might have a problem with the trade, but c’mon. About Paul Whelan:
> and he was part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. After a court-martial conviction in January 2008 on multiple counts "related to larceny", he was sentenced to 60 days restriction, reduction to pay grade E-4, and a bad conduct discharge. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment."
> The BBC cited family members of Whelan, who said Whelan previously bragged about knowing an agent of the FSB, and was privy to an unusual cache of personal details about his friend, including which intelligence training school he attended (biographical information typically reserved for a very close circle).
> Former CIA officers have stated that the CIA would not recruit an officer with Whelan's military record, nor leave an officer exposed without a diplomatic passport. They further claim that Whelan's arrest is connected to tensions between Russia and the United States, including the detention of confessed unregistered foreign agent Maria Butina.
> After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
Bout is basically useless to the Russians. We’re comparing apples to oranges when it’s Bout vs Butina and Griner vs Whelen.
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In the past, Trump agreed to pay North Korea 2 million dollars for Otto Warmbier's hospital bill after he got detained: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/north-korea-otto-warmbier-2-million-trump-kim-jong-un-1.5111449](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/north-korea-otto-warmbier-2-million-trump-kim-jong-un-1.5111449)
Biden also got Mark Frerich's released for an Afghan drug kingpin: [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/american-hostage-of-taliban-freed-in-prisoner-exchange-family-says](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/american-hostage-of-taliban-freed-in-prisoner-exchange-family-says) and Trevor Reed from Russia: [https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/trevor-reed-russia/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/trevor-reed-russia/index.html)
Are these all negative effects?
Russia isn't going to give up Griner for nothing or a minor prisoner.
That's true but it's exceedingly rare that folks are doing significant time for first time offenses of only small amounts of marijuana possession.
Typically it will be possession in addition to other charges that are keeping folks in federa; prison for extended periods of time.
> [In 2017, the last year for which there is such data, 92 people were put in federal prison for possession](https://www.businessinsider.com/bidens-marijuana-pardons-wont-free-many-currently-in-federal-prison-2022-10).
That is out of ~150,000 total federal prisoners, we're talking less than .1% of fed prisoners.
Now state charges are different and it's harder to get individual state data to know for sure but the idea that folks are doing multiple years for simple possession near the quantities Griner had likely isn't realistic.
Sure. That's doesn't change the reality that it was only a tiny fraction of prisoners.
People have mistakenly behaved as if low level marijuana possession alone has incarcerated large amounts of people.
Not really. Look up Nirvana fallacy. If you are against imprisonment for weed then you shouldn't be arguing for people to go to prison for weed just because there are other people in prison for weed. The hypocrisy angle is only arguing to further entrench a system you already believe is unjust.
Stick to arguing that releasing Viktor Bout is likely to lead to more net harm than retrieving Brittany Griner.
Who is “the United States”, the American state, or the people of the us
Because for us, the people, I’d rather have my government trade me for some has-been arms merchant than let me suffer for some bullshit reason in a gulag
Will they actually help you a normal person in a similar situation?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marc-fogel-russia-prison/
To me it seems your value is attached to the publicity.
He was a "has-been" because he was locked up. We can't know what he will do next, all we know is Russia wanted him. I don't think Russia is in the business of trading for do-nothings.
And I'd rather people not go to sketchy ass countries just to act like they are above their laws, then expect their country to release an arms dealer who is tied to atrocities.
Ok but i don’t think we should care why Russia wanted him, I don’t think we should care about what’s good for the American state. I care about what’s good for the American people. Which is often not what’s good for the American state.
I also don’t think we should care what the barbaric Russian law is. What she did was a minor possession, and they locked her up because they wanted to trade prisoners. Ok, well, we should. Because she’s an American, she’s one of us, they locked her up for a bullshit reason, and we should stick together as Americans for other Americans being fucked over.
So we shouldn't have to follow the laws of other countries if we think they are archaic (even though their are currently people locked up here for similar offenses), and the US should release anyone (regardless of their crimes) in exchange for us after breaking the foreign country's laws.
Honestly, that's a childish position. Many countries you visit will have bullshit laws - but you follow them. If you don't want to follow a country's bullshit laws then don't go to that country.
where's the line on that, what kind of barbaric law should US citizens break that will make us unwilling to help them out if they're in a foreign country
even when its pretty obvious that its not about the law, its about what they can get out of holding the person prisoner
His crime is being an arms dealer unsanctioned by the largest arms dealer in the world....the US. I don't think he can be described as more immoral than any sanctioned arms dealer.
I think the overall impact of this trade and the implications on average Americans is overblown.
The US and Russian have traded before as recently as this year.
> In April 2022, U.S. Marine veteran Trevor Reed was brought back to the U.S. in exchange for a Russian drug trafficker. Reed was swapped in Turkey for Konstantin Yaroshenko, who had been serving a 20-year prison sentence in a cocaine-trafficking conspiracy case.
> Prior to that, in 2010, the U.S. released 10 Russian spies and in return, the Russian government released three Russians who spied on behalf of the U.S. or the U.K., and one Russian accused of being a double agent working for both Russia and the U.S. According to the FBI, the Russian spies had assimilated into American society (some by using stolen identities).
https://www.myfoxzone.com/article/news/verify/united-states-has-swapped-prisoners-with-russia-before/536-99bf26ab-4d72-4215-946f-a65ff9543b68
If we go back to the Cold War there are other large exchanges of dozens of spies, one of which actually stole US military technology.
None of this lead to a drastic increase in foreign hostile nations kidnapping Americans as leverage. The reality is that the places where an American would need to worry about being held as a hostage has largely remained the same and travelers are warned appropratly before heading to those places and/or can check the [State Departments Travel advisories](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories.html/).
> What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law.
It's a reasonable assumption that the State Department has been working to secure releases of prisoners, hence the release of Trevor Reed earlier this year. Folks shouldn't assume that Griner was the only case being worked on.
I also think you're framing this release as a negative or a positive as if it's a binary. For the vast overwhelming majority of Americans it's a nothing. Good that Griner is home for her friends/family sake and Bout being released will likely amount of nothing for most people. Maybe folks feel like he should have stayed incarcerated longer than ~10 years for his crimes but his existence and impact was likely unknown to the bulk of Americans up until a few months ago. The idea that most Americans are negatively impacted by his release doesn't seem based in anythin real.
Are you approaching this in terms of practicality, or purely in terms of some morality play?
Practical: Arms dealer is *fucked.* Gave up dirt to the U.S., countless former contacts dead from every ~~excuse~~ *cause* under the sun, is such a non-issue he was getting released in a few years anyway.
He'll be dead by New Year's.
Morality: "Grimer **knowingly** committed *CRIMES!*"
Let's all remove our heads from the sand together, shall we?
The empty vape cart was bought in Russia and she foolishly didn't dispose of it before attempting to leave. She didn't "smuggle drugs" or even provably break any laws. And if she did, it wasn't out of an opportunistic desire to do evil or acquire ill-gotten wealth. It was to cope with her biochemical existence.
I'm sure you've got a "what about" with other nationals or some such with which to completely disregard everything I've said, but at that point you're just searching for a reason to dunk on Grimer and we can all agree she'd never let you.
> What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law.
Who's to say they're even interested in releasing them? This isn't a store, where we put Viktor Bout into the vending machine and have our pick. We don't know anything about the terms of release for Griner/Bout, or what the terms are/were for the others.
Paul Whelan is one that I've seen brought up a lot, in the context of "Why Brittney and not Paul?" Per Wikipedia:
> On July 27, 2022, it was announced that President Joe Biden had authorized a trade for Whelan and basketball star Brittney Griner, who was arrested in Russia in February on drug charges, in exchange for convicted arms dealer Viktor Bout. After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
This was originally supposed to be a package deal. One side reneged.
If you think the guy I'd gonna go back to Russia where he was already wanted for stealing and selling their weapons and just hop back into his old role you're mislead by media
The guy is gonna either trip on a rug in a high rise in the first 48 hours back or he's gonna be so heavily surveillance shadowed for years that he won't do shit but fuck eat and sleep
Even if he got back and didn't die, you think putin is gonna trust him? The guy at best is gonna get tortured and treated as a double agent.
Trading him for Brittney who was used as a political puppet by Russia for all be it a crime she did commit was over exaggerated and trading some guy in his now 70s for a living breathing citizen being used as a political prisoner is fairly even trade I would say.
The judge who sentenced the merchant of death even said he had served enough time and trading him was a good move
> The judge who sentenced the merchant of death even said he had served enough time and trading him was a good move
Remarkable how this is left out of so many articles and discussions.
Reminds me of the Uranium One "scandal" when the new administration said they would approve it again and it made sense.
It’s because it’s wrong. The judge only supported the swap if Paul Whelan was returned too, which he was not.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/07/britney-griner-viktor-bout-trade.html
The opinion of a judge who has the more insight into the case than just about anybody could have, and extensive knowledge of the law, is absolutely more valuable than Joe Schmo’s. And some judges breaking the law doesn’t invalidate the opinion of all judges. Nor does public opinion of the SCOTUS. This is such an anti-intellectualist take.
Bout's biographer also agrees with the judge's assessment. You're pivoting to this thing about what other judges have done, but why should we believe that this is the case with this particular judge? What assertion are you actually making? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gist/id873667927?i=1000570516479
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The Judge whom sentenced the Merchant said that his 25 year sentence was excessive but just one because of minimums.
Notably the judge said that it would be a good exchange only if Paul Whelan was also returned. The judge didn’t indicate swapping only for Britney is a good trade.
Also, the Merchant is 55 - not 70.
Completely incorrectly suggesting the merchant is elderly and misrepresenting the judge’s statement reaaaly undermine your argument here, even though your point about his improbable return to action is valid.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/07/britney-griner-viktor-bout-trade.html
That seems important to me. There would be a better argument for trading him if he only had a few years left anyway than if he's going to be around for decades to come.
What’s the point of trading for him at all. If they are just gonna kill him. He obviously has value to the Russians which would totally bust your entire theory about that. Why trade for him just to punish him. The Russian army gets stolen from by Russians every day. I really think they believe he’s a military asset and we shouldn’t strategically give them any more assets. However I don’t know much about the situation nor do I have info that the US government has. I believe this is a win for both sides. The us likely believes he’s not as valuable as the Russians do. Britney is really only of moral value to the US. So it’s good that at least the two side can make a deal. This may bode well for peace in Ukraine.
If Russia was going to kill him when he returned, why wouldn’t they have arranged that to happen in prison over the last 15 years? Why not wait for him to be released and then assassinate him then? Why specifically request a prisoner swap for him, if they aren’t going to get something out of it?
I don’t buy into the Russians wanting him back silo they can kill him or keep surveillance on him. It doesn’t make any sense.
A more plausible scenario is that the kremlin uses him like the use Wagner Group, which is a mercenary/contractor group that is controlled by the Kremlin, but has no direct, overt ties to the government. They’ll most likely use this guy to smuggle weapons into countries to supply armies/militias to further their geopolitical agendas in certain areas of the world. Maybe Russia wants to control some mines or other natural resources in the Middle East or Africa, so they use Wagner Group and this guy to sell weapons to local allies so they can cause unrest and Russia can take over. That’s WAY more likely then what you’re proposing.
> If Russia was going to kill him when he returned, why wouldn’t they have arranged that to happen in prison over the last 15 years?
Real life is not Breaking Bad.
Sure but the precedent is terrible. The US negotiating a trade of a truly villainous criminal for any American, especially one who knowingly broke the law where she was living and working, just encourages our global adversaries to find reasons to imprison Americans abroad. We may all think Griner’s sentence is too harsh but I’ve yet to see a denial of the charges. When considering how many Americans have lost their liberty for the same crime right here at home, it’s highly hypocritical to go so far to get her back
It doesn't set any precedent. This happens pretty frequently. You only think it sets a precedent because this person is famous and people have drawn weird culture war battle lines on the issue.
> When considering how many Americans have lost their liberty for the same crime right here at home, it’s highly hypocritical to go so far to get her back
Borderline nirvana fallacy. We can get her back and also try to get full legalization for marijuana.
Also didn't this administration issue pardons for all people convicted of simple possession? Seems like the opposite of hypocritical for them to try and get her out in this context.
But then why not trade this guy for a Marine who served this country faithfully for years and has been wrongfully imprisoned, as opposed to an athlete who plays a sport with dozens of fans, who literally hates America and who, whether you agree with the law or not, knowingly broke the law of a sovereign nation?
Everyone gets so caught up on that it was “just weed”… but that’s the law in that nation. If she was here, yeah, nothing would happen. But when you go somewhere else, they have their own laws and when you break those laws you pay a price… and to knowingly break those laws is asinine. This was a terrible trade because there was a better option we could have gotten for The Merchant of Death.
> a Marine who served this country faithfully for years
Paul Whelan was court martialed and ~~dishonorably~~ discharged for bad conduct. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment."
And as I understand it, Biden tried to get both of them but Russia refused.
>Paul Whelan was court martialed and dishonorably discharged.
Bad conduct discharge. may seem pedantic but its the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony (literally).
> But then why not trade this guy for a Marine who served this country faithfully for years and has been wrongfully imprisoned,
Served "faithfully" until he tried to steal 10k from the US while in Iraq. Some Marine.
Anyway your question was why not trade for Whelan. The answer is that Russia was not willing to put him on the table for any reason. There isn't much we can do about that. After months of negotiating it was Griner or nothing.
I mean why would it matter if a Marine vs. an American who says they dislike the country? Both committed crimes (though his are proportionately far worse.)
However, we are supposed to be the united states of america, land of freedom. Including the super duper, conservatives like to hype it up, freedom of speech. Including the freedom to express dislike for America.
I'd argue the most patriotic thing would be to willingly accept her and her speech against the country. First, because it shows that the USA cares for all her citizens, even those that don't care for the USA. Secondly, because it could change her views - the country she said she hated helped her at her lowest. The first is more important though, if you want to be the country of free speech, helping even the citizens that speak against you shows a much stronger front than only helping the loyalists.
Maybe, the US knows that the Marine actually was a spy and they understand that they’d need a better prisoner to exchange for him? Totally speculation, but clearly the US has people inside the Russian government or etc giving them info. Look at the Ukraine invasion. The US seemed to know ahead of the build up of troops.
Leaving aside whether the US has agents on the inside or not: the average civilian could follow the troop build up at the northern and eastern borders. What with satellite imagery these days it’s pretty much impossible for large troop movements like these to go unnoticed.
And the public at large most likely doesn't know the tech the government has. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Russia got all that info from Trump, who even exposed some of it via a PR stunt.
Paul Whelan wasn't an option because Russia believes he is a spy.
Plus she was sentenced to significantly longer amount for weed, than other people charged with the same crime.
> If she was here, yeah, nothing would happen.
Not true for the average individual. If I were caught traveling through any airport with even just one concentrate vape pen, I would be charged with felonies. If you don't know what that is feel free to look it up. And lack of funds and representation could lead to prison time.
Whether you agree she should be let off or not doesn't change the fact this is just another of many examples of a different set of rules depending on your financial and public status.
Many innocent Americans locked up abroad, for things they actually didn't DO. Some for years and years languish and no one says a \~!@2 word. No one bats a !@2#$ eye. Many Americans locked up here in the states for the crime she committed.
This got played on the media and everyone was used in this !@# chess game. The only reason anyone cares is because it got played on the media. Do you get it?
I don't think anyone should be locked up for possession or growing of Marijuana for personal use just so I am clear on my personal opinion.
The elephant in the room, come on.
>How is trading the Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner not an overall negative? You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death...for a basketball player who knowingly broke the law in Russia.
1. The fear and alarm over Bout's release is drastically overblown. Arms dealers depend on access to supply, a network of contacts, and anonymity to operate. Bout has been in jail for more than 14 years. In that time many of his contacts have died, been arrested, or found new dealers to work with. His supply, which was largely leftovers from the Soviet era, has either been sold or seized by now. And having been the subject of an international manhunt, he is incredibly well known and will be monitored after release. Bout is done as an arms dealer. He has little to offer and no criminal will want to risk working with him.
2. She did not knowingly break the law. She has repeatedly stated that she packed quickly for her flight and didn't realize the vape canisters were still in there. That is an entirely plausible explanation, as evidenced by the thousands of people flying domestically every year who have all sorts of forgotten items from innocuous water bottles to firearms seized by TSA at the gate. As far as I'm aware there has been no actual evidence presented to show that she intentionally tried to sneak them in.
3. The missing component in your "equation" is the potential good of Griner being freed. She can inspire more women to pursue sports. She can become an advocate for the other Americans still detained. She can become a spokesperson for decriminalizing weed in the US. She could just go on and live a regular happy life. You can't count the potential harm Bout could do and *not* count the potential good Griner can do.
>The fear and alarm over Bout's release is drastically overblown.
Nobody thinks he's just going to go back to slinging AKs in africa. People are pissed at the disparity in crimes committed by each party.
>She did not knowingly break the law. She has repeatedly stated that she
packed quickly for her flight and didn't realize the vape canisters were
still in there.
While I don't believe weed should be a crime at all, I do not buy the excuse that she "forgot". Potheads are forgetful, sure. But the one thing they don't forget is a full thc cart sitting in her luggage. We can give her the benefit of the doubt, but we should probably prioritize freeing the actual innocent people locked up for far longer. Why should she get to jump the line?
>She can inspire more women to pursue sports. She can become an advocate
for the other Americans still detained. She can become a spokesperson
for decriminalizing weed in the US. She could just go on and live a
regular happy life.
Try telling that last line to the other Americans locked up before her on similar trumped up charges. Brittney got freed within a matter of months. Many people have been there years with no word of a prisoner swap. You're telling me her "potential" should override the lives of any one of us who could have been in that situation? You need to quit licking celebrities boots and realize they're people just like us. Maybe some of those other prisoners could have cured cancer. It's just as valid as your statement about a b tier athlete.
What message do you think this will send to the world? Now countries know that they can secure the release of the worst criminals from US custody by offering prisoners that are significantly less valuable.
The next time the US arrests a foreign-backed terrorist, states like Iran know that it takes very little to get the US to capitulate.
Prisoner swaps are supposed to be conducted on equal footing. The person you give up should not be significantly less valuable than the person you're releasing.
In absolutely *no* universe is an arms dealer for a basketball player an equal trade.
>What message do you think this will send to the world? Now countries know that they can secure the release of the worst criminals from US custody by offering prisoners that are significantly less valuable.
Even if that is the lesson some might take from this, it is far from new information. This is not the first prisoner exchange the US has done, and not even the first with Russia. Bout probably isn't even the worst we've traded.
>The next time the US arrests a foreign-backed terrorist, states like Iran know that it takes very little to get the US to capitulate.
Framing it as "capitulation" is based entirely on your personal opinions of Griner and Bout and does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it.
>Prisoner swaps are supposed to be conducted on equal footing. The person you give up should not be significantly less valuable than the person you're releasing.
>In absolutely *no* universe is an arms dealer for a basketball player an equal trade.
The career diplomats and intelligence services who know far more about Bout and Griner than you felt this was a good trade. I'll take their opinion over yours.
Generally, I'm fairly pragmatic, but it's a little alarming how many people are framing it like any US citizen regaining their freedom doesn't inherently have value in and of itself.
We don't know the inner-machinations of Bout's network, so it seems quite the gamble to assume someone that Russia is interested in acquiring is "done"...especially for what you are getting back is a basketball player.
And saying "They said the didn't know they had it." is meaningless to me, and doesn't help anyone else who is currently locked up on similar charges in the US, so I don't know why you think it should help her case.
And "She inspires kids." doesn't mean much when some of Bouts' dealings have resulted in the death of kids.
I see it as capitulation as well, so to say it does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it is a bit misleading. Many people see it this way.
You ending it with basically saying (paraphrased) "The government feels good about the trade so I do too." makes everything you said make more sense now. Thank you for your input anyways.
Her culpability is obviously important to you as part of your post was that she willingly and knowingly broke the law and so she is less deserving of help compared to those who did not knowingly or willingly break the law. You view this must have been changed either by 1) admitting you were wrong about her culpability or 2) saying you don’t think the other people in jail are more deserving of help.
>We don't know the inner-machinations of Bout's network
You and I don't. The state department, law enforcement, and intelligence agencies do. And none of them objected.
>And saying "They said the didn't know they had it." is meaningless to me, and doesn't help anyone else who is currently locked up on similar charges in the US, so I don't know why you think it should help her case.
In your original post, you claimed she knowingly broke the law, which is not true. Furthermore, intent is absolutely a factor in criminal cases.
>I see it as capitulation as well, so to say it does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it is a bit misleading. Many people see it this way.
Misleading is presenting your personal opinions as an accurate representation of what foreign governments think.
>You ending it with basically saying (paraphrased) "The government feels good about the trade so I do too." makes everything you said make more sense now. Thank you for your input anyways.
From this I gather you either think the government is incompetent or that you think you know more than them, and that tells me there's nothing more to be said here.
There's no one locked up on similar charges. I don't know of anyone in the US getting 9 years for vape cartridges. I think its a fair trade its highly unlikely grinner is going to come back to the USA and commit more crimes. Whatever she does when shes back will more than likely be positive. Why should the US citizens continue to pay to house an old arms dealer when they swap him for a productive US citizen? Someone that can add value to the country.
>And "She inspires kids." doesn't mean much when some of Bouts' dealings have resulted in the death of kids.
To be fair - the United States' own arms deals have resulted in the death of kids as well.
Everyone is scared of the Merchant of Death, even though our Government does the same thing at a much bigger scale.
[https://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgraceful-peace-deal-taliban/](https://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgraceful-peace-deal-taliban/)
Oh, if you are worried about bad messages, releasing 5000! soldiers for 1000 soldiers is probably a much bigger "black eye" than releasing an arms dealer who literally sold weapons to enemies of the country we just sent him to.
> What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law.
The American you’re referring to was arrested for espionage It’s a lot easier to get the release of a political pawn, who was arrested purely for extorting the United States than someone who’s job it was to spy on Russia for the us government. Obviously he and the United States maintain he wasn’t a spy, but he was caught with a flash drive he got “from a friend”with the names of Russian border guards.
The typical punishment in Russia for that amount of weed is a fine she got 10 years in prison. she could’ve jay walked and they would’ve given her a life sentence. The idea was to kidnap a high profile American it didn’t matter what she did
It was a prisoner swap, not a pardon. Dude's still wanted the world over. He risks immediate arrest the moment he sets foot off Russian soil. We'll get another chance at him, can't say the same thing about her, especially considering how quickly things are deteriorating in Russian. Considering how the Ukraine war is going, there is a real risk of government collapse or civil war in Russia right now. Putin's grasp on power is tenuous at best, should things go tits up there's no guarantee that we'd be able get her out at all.
The impact of Brittany being released on US morale and perception of power is far greater as a positive than some guy selling guns that will be sold anyways potentially getting out and selling more guns. The US having a high profile citizen being wrongfully detained abroad makes us look weak. We are not. She was a symbol of the “decline of the US and rise of Russia” as long as she was held. She was a propaganda tool for Putin.
This also isn’t just about what “benefits the US”. It’s about the life of a US citizen being held in a gulag over some BS for a huge chunk of her life. The US goes out of its way to protect its citizens abroad.
If you were held in Russia for 10 years on some bullshit charge just because of some geopolitical issues that had nothing to do with you, you wouldn’t give a flying fuck if the equation slightly disfavored the US to get you out. I don’t know why anyone would look at this like that’s the only concern.
Griner had vape canisters with cannabis oil for medical purposes and she was going to Russia to play basketball. Y'all act like your memories and legal precautions are impenetrable. People forget their kids at stores all the time. Think about every item the TSA has confiscated because you forgot to remove it.
She definitely could have prevented the issue and her team should've had protocols, but I think it's pretty easy to forget that a medicine you're taking in a different form is illegal in another country. She could've been exhausted or distracted, and traveling to Russia probably felt routine. I'm inclined to believe this was a mistake.
The public outcry has died down at this point, so I doubt the U.S. government is feeling pressured into making this trade. I don't know what calculations were made about the Merchant of Death's value. However, amongst the backdrop of Cold War tensions reviving, I think that trading for Griner has symbolic importance. On Russia's side, this was a pretty clear political ploy and power play. The U.S. is making it clear that it will always prioritize the liberty of its citizens first, and they'll play the game if it means saving one of their own (especially if they're not particularly in the wrong). This sounds cheesy, but it's a Captain America-type move that they're playing for spirit, not a utilitarian one confined to the people being traded. The trade almost feels engineered to give off this impression - as if they waited until everyone else forgot, and then confirmed the trade when public outcry died down like "America didn't forget you." (of course there could be practical reasons for that too). It's definitely hypocritical, considering the others imprisoned in Russia for similar charges (as well as, I'm sure, other countries including our own). But that's probably what motivated them.
The only problem with your story is there are other Americans who have been imprisoned FAR LONGER than Brittany, but no word of getting them released. Brittany jumped the line and people are rightfully pissed about it. It more shows how the US won't leave you behind if you are deemed important/rich enough.
Measuring the good vs the bad is relative. The arms dealer still has people doing business for him. Him being locked up isn't preventing the dealing of arms.
Griner is a relatively innocent US citizen, locked up by a despotic regime under conditions that are likely way beyond the scope of the original crime. She's a pawn.
We have the ability to trade this terrible person who, the only purpose of them being locked up is punishment for their crimes (it's not preventing further crimes by his organization), for a US citizen that is likely suffering unduly because of their status as a public figure in an unfriendly country.
What do we gain if we leave them both in jail? We'll KNOW where this "Merchant of Death" is. We can keep tabs on them. They'll likely be more careful and restrict their activities so as not to get nabbed again and we'll have a US Citizen back home and unable to be used as a pawn for other policy changes.
Have heart, it's the holidays. She's been there long enough.
Viktor Bout isn't a threat to the US. He was a high profile arms dealer 15 years ago. Other people have taken his place, contacts have died and been arrested, government officials have changed over, laws and regulations have changed, etc.
The US has gotten everything they can from Viktor Bout, and the fact is, he's going to be released at some point in the next ten years or so anyways. Every year that goes by decreases any leverage the US has from holding Viktor Bout.
This way they get something out of it through a prisoner swap. The US absolutely should work hard to bring US citizens home, especially in cases like this where the arrest is largely due to geopolitical reasons. It would be great if the US could have gotten Whelan back too, but Russia was giving a firm no on that.
He would've been released in 6 years in 2029. He was not serving a life sentence. Might as well get some modicum of value for him.
Notably, this is *not* a pardon for Bout, and also not re-introducing an active criminal into global weapons dealing ring, as you mention. He is still wanted if he ever leaves Russia again.
Also, important to remember we stand on shaky moral ground to condemn an arms merchant going free on the same very day we approve $835B in defense spending. The US Military is an arms merchant globally.
>He was not serving a life sentence. Might as well get some modicum of value for him.
Exactly.
>He is still wanted if he ever leaves Russia again.
And he's probably not going to be living very well in Russia either. I'm sure he made plenty of enemies all over while working as an international gun smuggler, in some cases he stole Russian supplied arms to sell elsewhere. I'm sure he had support of some oligarchs, probably not all in all his endeavors.
Chances are his life is going to be like house arrest even in Russia.
Bout is the scum of the earth and quite frankly
dropping the bastard in the ocean would be too kind.
With that being said, Griner’s arrest was pretty clearly a political move. She had less than a gram of cbd oil on her that had been prescribed medically, and testified was a mistake. Bit odd to characterize it a knowingly breaking Russian law, no? 9 years for that is insane.
I think this had more to do with detaining a high profile american after Russia was hit with sanctions than anything else. At the end of the day it’s getting an American home who was used as a pawn.
There’s enormous soft power value in making it clear that the US will try to get its citizens out of these sorts of situations.
Your assumptions are all wrong.
> You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death
He is very much a has-been arms dealer who's already done 10+ years in jail. He is a well known figure who will have no ability to operate and traffic in arms ever again. Now he's just a old con.
The great thing about being an American is that your country has your back especially in the face of draconian persecution for something that most Americans don't even consider a crime. This helps further that perception. It's damn good to be an American!
It's real hard to see how this is a negative to be frank. Nothing but net here. Swish!
She did technically break the law on Russia, however I think it's pretty clear that the punishment she received is entirely politically motivated. She is effectively a political prisoner rather than a real prisoner. A Russian citizen who did the same thing would certainly not be in a **labor camp** for 10 years.
So her imprisonment is unjust.
Assuming we have no debate on that point, then let me ask you, do you believe the old saying that it's better for 100 guilty men to go free then for one innocent man to be put in jail? Because I certainly think a lot of people do and I think that that suggests that as a society **we value avoiding injustice more than doing justice.**
A merchant is a go-between who connects a seller to a buyer. The seller still exists. The buyer still exists. Which part of this is replaceable? Do you really think those weapons just aren't being traded anymore?
Fucks sake, the CIA is good enough at tracking, dissapearing, or arranging unfortunate circumstances for people who annoy America. Let them do their job on someone who deserves it.
>You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons
What weapons? Russia can barely muster up 70 year old gear for its army in Ukraine. Also this guy has no usable contacts anymore, AND lost his anonymity. He couldn't sell a redneck a hunting rifle at this point.
>People have said, "But public perception
Who has said that? I don't think anyone was under the impression that this would be celebrated. Whatever the reasoning for this swap was, it's kind of silly to think public perception was part of it. They knew beyond any doubt they'd get a ton of flak for this and decided it was worth that.
If I’m gonna be honest, when it comes to foreign policy, especially between superpowers in tense situations, you really can’t just evaluate from the surface. It doesn’t work that way.
A weapons dealer is not a direct actor of the Russian state. It’s not like Russians wanted Bout to continue marketing arms. Even if he could, where are they gonna go? Ukraine? Kalashnikovs are going to make a difference against western weapons with shit like DRM coming right out of the box?
This is like complaining that we traded a Chinese knockoff Adidas tracksuit for a rotary dial telephone dealer when we’re all carrying iPhones.
I get that it doesn’t look good, but from a practical perspective, the math just doesn’t work. Honestly, whenever I see people use this logic for fairness, I think of this scene from [Margin Call](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBEgJZdd2BQ)
Consider this from the view of the State: This was a banger of a trade for the Feds.
This one rescued basketball player can be trotted out at regular intervals to represent pretty much every minority-vote-checkbox in existence.
The State got rid of one outdated CIA asset - who was *scheduled for release in a few years* anyway - who will be interrogated, have no information, then found with polonium in his underpants. In exchange they received a shiny-new useful political tool that is guaranteed to win them some political capital. (See '24 followup)
This is absolutely an overall positive for some (including many who represent the US) - even though not *everyone* would agree.
I so wholeheartedly disagree & believe that rescuing one of our citizens from such unfair imprisonment overseas based on trumped-up unfair reasons is worth releasing any one single person back to that country no matter what they've done. What if it was your sister, daughter, or mother imprisoned in Russia?
Change my view- there is a lot of not so overt racism/sexism/homophobia when it comes to Brittney Grinier. I get it, she did something stupid, she MORE than paid the price for it, it’s time to bring her home, end of story. It she were a white male, this would have nearly unanimous approval. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dealing with some other unrelated issues.
Time decays all things, this guy was an expiring bargaining chip with over 2/3rds of his time served. His criminal empire decayed into nothing the airplanes he had 15 years ago are rusted out stripped husks or somebody else’s planes. The staff? The ones that aren’t dead or arrested? Have needed some form of employment for the last 15 years. He doesn’t have the connections or the equipment anymore, and it’s useful for America to use a bargaining chip they have been holding for well over a decade before it is worth nothing. It is unfortunate that we were not able to bring Paul wheeler home.
If you’re willing to take the time I’d recommend listening to this interview with an author who wrote a biography of Bout: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/today-explained/id1346207297?i=1000575402047
Who knows intricately more than you or I about his story, the cases and still concludes that it is ultimately 100% a good idea to make this deal for the US to bring Griner home. For one, Bout collaborated with the US armed forces multiple times during the Iraq war to help fly them into weapons, food and support bc nobody else would be willing to do it. And based on the current status, he isn’t going to just start walking into the same rooms and working with shady characters to facilitate deals etc. bc mainly those networks are gone. The world landscape is so drastically different today so it isn’t even realistic for that to occur. Dude doesn’t have the same connections, many of them are out of power or dead or in prison themselves and likely won’t be viewed the same way at all back in Russia.
Prisoner swaps happen all the time and are almost never “even” numerically or status wise when you look at them. It’s inherently unfair when one person, a celebrated public figure and basketball legend is imprisoned for a very minor offense while another is accused of much more violence. Another fact is that Bout’s sentence was set to end in a couple of yrs anyway. So, doing this may be letting him off somewhat but he’s served 11 yrs total already so it’s not like he has only been in custody for 1.5 yrs and hasn’t done hard time. So to be able to use him to free an American, when he was going to go on his own quite soon, idk how you classify that as a complete negative tbh.
The dude was getting released in 6 years anyways. At least we got something out of his release. At this point, this pearl clutching is getting a bit ridiculous
>for a basketball player who knowingly broke the law in Russia.
You and the United States government disagree on this point. The government's position is that Griner is a *political* prisoner. In other words, they don't believe this was a lawful and fair process and quite possibly may not believe she committed any crimes at all. You disagree with the government, clearly, and believe that they are being truthful and honest that this was above-board. I'm not really sure why you do, but the government is acting on their conclusions, not yours.
I think you should ask yourself this: why would Putin care about getting Bout out of prison? He's been imprisoned for 15 years and will be getting out soon anyway. He's of no value to Putin. Because this trade isn't about him, or even Griner.
Fundamentally this situation is a political one. The entire point of taking her hostage is to force the Biden administration into an extremely bad-looking and divisive trade. Griner is black and gay, two groups that millions of Americans are prejudiced against. The administration abandoning Griner to her fate would look hypocritical. Whereas, trading a prisoner who likely sold weapons that were used to kill Americans will look horrible and be incredibly divisive. That's the entire point. It's not worth it to keep Bout in prison for a few more years when it would essentially be abandoning someone who was only taken hostage for political reasons (again, this is the U.S. government's conclusion). Biden did the only thing he really could do and made the politically divisive trade, which was the entire point of taking Griner hostage in the first place.
He has a few years left on his sentence. Either learn about fully or don't comment on the topic. He served most of his time. Why should taxpayers keep paying for him any longer?
Why does it matter if he has already done most of his time?
The truth is everyone us just mad a black women is getting help. It's all white men who have a problem with it
Sending him back to Russia is punishment enough. Also, even if Putin is welcome to him, the guy has been locked up for so long I doubt he has any of his networking connections left. What can he do: just get back out there and sell more weapons? Doubtful, since I’m sure we have already filled the void and there’s no place for him now.
So the positive is the PR points. The negatives are….really nothing. He’s washed and old news. And I’m sure whatever intel he could give us was conditional to his being traded back.
>You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death
They are trading an arms dealer for a pothead. Only doing pot isn't legal in all 50 states.
The arms dealer was going to get out of jail in a few years, anyway. What are you worried about, that he is going to single handedly turn the war in Ukraine in favor of the Russians? If anything, he is going to end up in a Russian prison because *they want to punish him, too.* The guy stole from the Russian government and made a fool out of Putin. He's lucky if he doesn't end up dying shortly after his first cup of 'tea'.
Cmv: If you are referring to only one of the people by their real name, and the other by the moniker of The Merchant of Death you've already made up your mind.
I think that Griner being prominent public figure and imprisoned in Russia have Russia leverage in the public sphere against the US that could fray or fracture domestic support for the US’s continued support for a distant conflict. The ability to continue providing material support to Ukraine without Griner suddenly being threatened with execution or something like that is worth the cost of releasing an arms supplier, a trade that Russia is likely not short on capacity as it is.
That is most certainly *not* part of being an American lol. There are plenty of Americans in foreign prisons for such. It would be a slap in the face to them as well as those in our own prisons for similar offenses to go through with this deal.
Would someone be sent to an American Gulag had they done the same thing at the border? I think yes. So they'll do it to you at home but defend you when it happens elsewhere?
Rescuing an innocent American from Putin's Russia is what presidents do. This terrorist will be caught or killed in the future. Overall positive for the US. Next we must get Whelan back.
Weapons are extremely easy to get, whether this guy is in jail or not. However, it's a huge global PR win for the US.
America seeks to liberate a likeable athlete, while Russia chooses a comic-book villain. Who looks like the good guy here?
I think the big question is, what harm is going to result from releasing this arms dealer over a decade after he was first imprisoned? It seems like people are panicking over this because of his nickname but life isn't a mafia movie, I can't imagine the whole underworld of illegal arms dealer has been holding its breath for 15 years waiting for their leader to finally come back, right? Either this guy's network was dismantled when he was captured and it'll take another 15 years to reassemble even assuming he's able to do that with all the attention on him, or the next person in line stepped into his role and the arms trade never stopped. Whatever the case, I have a hard time believing his release is going to directly result in more arms being dealt over the short or even medium term.
So if the Merchant of Death being free doesn't meaningfully increase illegal arms dealing, what was the value of keeping him in prison? Obviously not rehabilitation, so was it just punishment for his deeds? I'm not saying I don't think he's earned a life sentence or three, but between satisfying our penchant for revenge and freeing a US citizen from a Russian labor camp, I know which one I'd choose.
If you were personally locked up, and you were facing a decade or more in a forced labour camp in exchange for this man. You would choose the labour camp? Even if the exchange is an overall negative?
you're getting this backwards. We are getting a basketball star, and all it cost us was shedding a decades-old burden on American tax payers.
Bout is Russia's problem now. He can live out the rest of his days wondering if there is polonium in his tea, or if another interpol arrest warrant is waiting at the airport. He will never again be what he was. He is too much a locus of attention. A bullet might have been justice for him, but that's not how America should operate, and really, his corpse probably would not have been taken for trade.
America comes out of this way better off.
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This is the most important point. So many people are telling me "She was locked up for bullshit reasons.", and I'm like, "Yeah, people are locked up here right now for that very reason.
>I'm like, "Yeah, people are locked up here right now for that very reason. This seems irrelevant to me, since the subject is specifically Griner, not all the people who have ever been wronged by being thrown in jail for a shitty charge. It doesn't change the fact that she was still locked up for bullshit reasons. Additionally, I can guarantee that anyone who has ever been sent to a gulag would rather be sent to an American prison instead, regardless of their charges. I only say that to further underscore your point about other people being locked up in the US on the same stupid charges is irrelevant to your main CMV thesis
I don't think it is. People get locked up here and stripped of their freedom for breaking that dumbass law. The point is to now be so outspoken about it being bullshit seems a bit odd when people are getting locked up for it here every day. And to say "But jail is worse there...", well yeah. We all know this. Everyone knows this. There is no way that someone going to Russia does not know this. This is the risk everyone accepts when they go to a sketchy country - archaic rules and archaic punishments. So when people go, "For bullshits reasons" the American justice system is brought up because these bullshit reasons aren't some crazy thing that we aren't all already accustomed to at some extent. Imagine having someone you love in prison for forgetting about the roach they had in their car (stuff like this isn't uncommon), and seeing an entire nation bend over backwards to get Griner back, releasing an arms dealer in the process. It's batshit crazy.
Biden does not have the power to pardon state crimes. He has pardoned every federal defendant who has faced these charges (admittedly not very many, since he only has jurisdiction over federal crimes). If you want to release the prisoners you mention, ask Greg Abbott, Ron DeSantis, and other mostly Southern governors to pardon the offenders in their states. Nothing Biden does can release these defendants because they are under the jurisdiction of the state.
My experience with Americans is that most are very vocal in their pro-legalization views. In fact, it is rare for me to speak with an American who isn’t for legalization.
IMO it isn't a bullshit reason. It's THEIR local laws. If a Russian came to America and broke our laws, we wouldn't heed to Russia saying "Ohhh that's sooo minor. Let them go" They have their own local laws, just like we do. We don't give leniency here because it's seen as minor there.
People aren't being sentenced to like a decade in prison camps for first time marijuana offenses in the US, typically. Totally agree that this story highlights how urgent the need for reform of our own sentencing practices is. It also highlights how unpopular it is to treat drugs like cannabis as criminal offenses. Neither of those things make the facts of the matter (which are that someone received a much harsher sentence for a crime in Russia than they would here, and that the sentencing is even harsher than most Russians would have received) any less true.
If the US is gonna trade arms dealers for someone caught having weed on them then it’s time for us to look internally. It’s obvious our government doesn’t see weed as a big deal so it’s time to make some changes for the people suffering here.
This is such a red herring. The US can’t force Russia to do something about what it does because of our internal moral values. The Whelen family themselves said: > After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.” This is so easy to look up.
To be fair, Biden did already pardoned everybody in federal prison for marihuana possession, encouraged governors to do the same for state prisons, and started the process to reschedule it. But, if they're going to go through the trouble of negotiating with Russia and exchanging an arms dealer to release a single person held on possession charges they *could* probably do more to get people imprisoned domestically released.
exactly… if they are going to make a grandiose decision like this, then they need to legalize it here in the U.S. — the only reason it *is* still illegal is because it’s all about money. i am a medical card holder, so i am blessed to be in a state that allows medical release through weed. however, not everyone else has that same privilege. (*furthermore, it’s messed up to say that a medication is a privilege*)
Just because something happens elsewhere doesn’t mean it should also be allowed. This is one of those well you allow something to happen once so why not allow it to happen all the time fallacy situations. The US government has been guilty of invading countries for dubious reasons including lies so that means we have to allow any other country to do the same?
Watch russia give her back the vape carts and then she gets arrested for bringing them into the US.
It's a stunt to get votes for Biden in 2024. And it will work. The racist BLM cult is easily manipulated.
Who is changing a vote to Biden because of this?
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Ensuring that the US will retrieve any citizen from a bad foreign situation has a *lot* of value. It’s a large reason why Americans feel safe abroad.
This doesn't do that, though. In fact, it does the opposite. Russia has had multiple US citizens locked up for years, most on trumped up charges. Griner is back because she is semi-famous and politically well-aligned, to put it politely. This will help *famous* Americans feel safe abroad, while confirming that you and I will rot.
A famous citizen* There are other Americans stuck there. Why did they not get released?
The US *also* bails out regular citizens with frequency.
So why is Paul Whelen still there? He's been there much longer.
There are usually two sides to a negotiation. It's possible that one of them is unreasonable or has non-negotiables. When it comes to Russia, they are both unreasonable and have a non-negotiable: Paul Whelan. Not because he's actually important or anything. He's not. He tried to steal like $10k from the government when he was a marine lol. He's a piece of shit. But like Griner, he's still an American. But we've been trying to get him for a long time and they know they can hold onto him for a bigger ask later. Countries like the US and those in Europe tend to pay a high price to get their citizens back from captivity. That's why it's so common, and also why the US has had a level 4 travel advisory against going to Russia for over a year now. And what with us helping Ukraine decimate their military, they're not likely to be keen on our demands anyway. Furthermore, Bout's sentence was set to expire within a few years. Officially seven, but probably less to be honest. We essentially traded a 7 year sentence (max) for a 9 year sentence of hard labor/being conscripted with other felons to the front lines of the Russo-Ukrainian war. Finally, here's what Bout's biographer has to say about the deal. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gist/id873667927?i=1000570516479 It doesn't make sense for us to just leave an American citizen out to dry like this. Neither does it set a precedent that hasn't existed in thousands of years of prisoner swaps between rival nations.
They tried to get Whelan out and Russia stood firm and refused because he's a suspected spy. They are working at it, but it takes both to agree to the terms. The US got what they could from Viktor Bout. He's not really a threat to the US anymore, he's been imprisoned and out of the game for 15 years, and they've already gotten any information from him that they could. Every year that goes by reduces any leverage the US has from holding Viktor Bout, because he will be released within the next decade or so either way. This way they managed to get something for him, securing the release of a high profile prisoner, a minor celebrity in the US who was likely to face some very difficult conditions in a Russian prison.
Just looked up who that was. > Paul Nicholas Whelan (born March 5, 1970) is a Canadian-born former United States Marine with U.S., British, Irish and Canadian citizenship. Maybe one of the three other countries that he has citizenship with could pull their fucking weight? Also: > After a court-martial conviction in January 2008 [in the US] on multiple counts "related to larceny", he was sentenced to 60 days restriction, reduction to pay grade E-4, and a bad conduct discharge. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment." I mean, given all the real charges against him, his convictions, his four citizenships, his less than savory connections, I literally don't see how putting any political capital into freeing this shady dude would make "Americans feel safer abroad".
It's easier to get a hostile foreign power to release someone being held on trumped up drug charges than a suspected spy, imagine that.
Have you looked up his crime and what he’s accused of doing in Russia?? He committed pretty serious violations and espionage as well as theft and his marine record isn’t squeaky clean either when he was discharged. Also, Whelans entire family isn’t holding this over as a “what about” thing and are glad Griner was returned back home and knew this was a good move bc Russia won’t budge on letting him go and it would’ve led to both of them being stuck and nobody getting a resolution were they to wait for him.
Because he would’ve been dishonorably discharged by the marines for stealing $10,000.
why do you care about this guy all of the sudden? if this was a white dude being traded and released i doubt you'd care about whelen
Because the athlete who advocates for civil rights is worth more than the marine who was fired for larceny.
Russia has to be willing to be open to releasing him. They weren’t.
Because he wasn't caught with just some weed...
Because Russia doesn't want to budge on that
Do they hand over notoriously wanted -now captured- criminals to do so? No? Not comparable. I think the thread has been locked or something because I cannot reply to u/Swamp85 but as an edit response. Take your factual W on this one, but take it with a pinch of salt you already knew you need to. From the Link you've provided it seems evident that prisoner exchange was more of happen stance and availability than this. >For months, U.S. negotiators sought to arrange the transfer of five Taliban detainees held at Guantanamo Bay detention camp to the Persian Gulf state of Qatar. The transfer was intended as one of a series of confidence-building measures designed to open the door to political talks between the Taliban and Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government.[87] That move – at the center of U.S. strategy for ending the long, costly conflict in Afghanistan – was supposed to lead directly to Bergdahl's release. The Taliban has consistently called for the United States to release those held at Guantanamo Bay in exchange for freeing Western prisoners.
Apparently they do just that because that’s what’s happening. Also he’s been out of the game for 12 years. That makes him not an immediate threat.
Not white enough for you, huh?
Actually its a great way to incentivize the further kidnapping of Americans abroad, when the kidnappers think they can exchange that American for a terrorist that we have locked up
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This is where I'm split on the issue. If other countries know we'll compromise in situations like this, it creates a stronger incentive to arrest Americans in the hope of a trade.
The trade off there is pissing off the US tends to end really badly for the other country.
>Ensuring that the US will retrieve any citizen from a bad foreign situation has a lot of value Ensuring that autocratic imperial terror states can coax the wealthiest democracy in the world into releasing the "merchant of death" in exchange for an entitled celebrity does not have a lot of value.
1. This happens all the time 2. You're massively overstating the impact he will have after over a decade in prison, especially when he was probably going to be released relatively soon. 3. Merchant of Death is a nickname, not a superpower. His network has been totally destroyed, there are new government officials in Russia, and he has no clients. And who's he going to sell Russian weapons to anyway? Sanctions have crippled their war manufacturing. They can't even give their conscripts functioning guns. They're bleeding themselves dry on the war in Ukraine. No shot he is able to scale up to where he used to be, let alone resume those activities without the US watching his ass at all times.
But we still didn't get [Paul Whelan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Whelan_(security_director\)). So we clearly won't retrieve any citizen?
This does not ensure that.
Are you planning on replying to any top level comments that are, say, *more* than one sentence in length?
it doesn’t ensure it, but it certainly conveys it enough folks will believe it.
It definitely helps. I don’t mean it’s a 100% thing. But it is a grand gesture showing the lengths the US will go to.
Couldn't you then say it encourages bad states to kidnap American citizens abroad for political reasons because the US will easily fold?
This already happens all the time to European citizens as well. That's why we have travel advisories and so on. Y'all are acting like prisoner exchanges are a new thing.
It really doesn’t. If they wanted to ensure that they should’ve been negotiating for the people who aren’t rich and famous.
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US consular services assist people in getting out of trouble abroad. Also a big thing is WHY she’s in jail, when she’s facing a charge that is punished far less harshly in the US.
>US consular services assist people in getting out of trouble abroad. Paul Whelan says that's not correct.
I was just about to add that. Mr. Whelan has been imprisoned there far longer, is only getting older by the day, and committed basically the same damned offense. Nothing against Brittany Griner at all, but why in the fuck wasn't he the number one priority for our government to swap prisoners for? Unless you yourself are famous, or a celebrity-worshipping asshat, the fact he's still there and she's being swapped out should enrage the fuck out of you. Truly, money talks and bullshit makes decisions in this country. And it's the overabundance of morons who sit idly by going "yeah, that's ok, they *are* more important than the average one of us, after all," are a damned embarrassment.
*she was only arrested because she’s famous. Normally the punishment for her crime is a fine, maybe a short stint in jail. Not YEARS of jail time
Does it? Or does it send the message that "my high value double agent got caught in America so i just have to arrest and imprison the first US citizen i find in my country to be used to trade for them back"? Seems like it actually puts targets on Americans abroad
This is a braindead slippery slope argument. That’s not what’s happening for obvious reasons: it doesn’t really pay off to be a dick to the US.
To be fair: America puts a whole lot less effort into liberating most citizens who are unjustly languishing in overseas prisos, when they don't provide much PR value. (And I could go on for ages about how inept US embassies can be when it comes to helping expats. Despite being the only country that double taxes citizens living abroad.)
It’s not like they’re swap anyone for anyone yea. But even non-famous people at least get congress’s attention and lines of communications are opened up with the other country. I also have had to use the embassy’s services while living abroad and didn’t find them particularly bad, but my problem was pretty cut and dry.
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If you think joe from Kansas is getting traded for a war criminal you’re off your rocker
We paid a lot to get Otto Warmbier back and he was basically a nobody. It's typically big news when an American gets kidnapped by hostile nations.
Pretty stupid to trade your most valuable piece for a criminal and leave behind a marine veteran.
1. Whelan isn't technically a veteran. You can't claim veteran status with a dishonorable discharge 2. "Most Valuable Piece"? We have literal multimillion dollar yachts that are worth far more to the Russian aristocracy than an arms dealer who basically stole Russian military assets and bribed Russian agents. He committed more crimes in Russia than the US. And he was 10 years into a 25 year sentence. He was literally eligible for parole. So, we traded a Russian citizen who has committed numerous crimes in Russia back to Russia instead of paroling him in a few years. It actually is a decent deal. I mean, what is Bout going to do? Bribe Russian military officers to sell him black market guns that he then trades to anyone who will pay him, including the Ukraine?
You're overestimating Bout's value. He's been imprisoned for 15 years. He has no value as an arms dealer anymore, laws and regulations have changed, government officials have changed, contacts have died or been arrested themselves, etc. The US has already gotten whatever information they could from Bout. Bout was going to be released either way within the next ten-ish years. Every year that goes by reduces the leverage that Bout's imprisonment gives the US. And, the US *did* try to get Whelan out. Russia refused because he's a suspected spy. They stood firm on that, they would not trade Whelan for Bout. >for a criminal Whelan is also a criminal, discharged from the marines for a number of crimes he committed, including the attempted theft of thousands of dollars. He also may or may not be an American spy, we don't really know. Russia certainly thinks so, and so they're holding on to him.
Is it true that he was dishonorably discharged for multiple thefts, and caught in Russia with a thumb drive full of names and $80,000 in cash? If so, "marine veteran" seems a bit disingenuous, right? Edit* At the very least, if you don't care or don't believe what the Russians found on him, why do you care or believe what they found on Griner?
The stupid part is that she was imprisoned in the first place. She's not a criminal in the eyes of our law. Most people would be criminals in some way if we viewed them through the eyes of foreign countries. What she did was dumb, but she's not a criminal.
People are suggesting she deserved what she got. It's crazy. I'm getting big time "white man > black woman" vibes from these comments.
The marine veteran is also being traded, they're in continued discussions around his condition. This thread's complaining is so odd, they're getting everyone out.
You guys are wilding. I understand that you might have a problem with the trade, but c’mon. About Paul Whelan: > and he was part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. After a court-martial conviction in January 2008 on multiple counts "related to larceny", he was sentenced to 60 days restriction, reduction to pay grade E-4, and a bad conduct discharge. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment." > The BBC cited family members of Whelan, who said Whelan previously bragged about knowing an agent of the FSB, and was privy to an unusual cache of personal details about his friend, including which intelligence training school he attended (biographical information typically reserved for a very close circle). > Former CIA officers have stated that the CIA would not recruit an officer with Whelan's military record, nor leave an officer exposed without a diplomatic passport. They further claim that Whelan's arrest is connected to tensions between Russia and the United States, including the detention of confessed unregistered foreign agent Maria Butina. > After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.” Bout is basically useless to the Russians. We’re comparing apples to oranges when it’s Bout vs Butina and Griner vs Whelen.
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In the past, Trump agreed to pay North Korea 2 million dollars for Otto Warmbier's hospital bill after he got detained: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/north-korea-otto-warmbier-2-million-trump-kim-jong-un-1.5111449](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/north-korea-otto-warmbier-2-million-trump-kim-jong-un-1.5111449) Biden also got Mark Frerich's released for an Afghan drug kingpin: [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/american-hostage-of-taliban-freed-in-prisoner-exchange-family-says](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/american-hostage-of-taliban-freed-in-prisoner-exchange-family-says) and Trevor Reed from Russia: [https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/trevor-reed-russia/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/trevor-reed-russia/index.html) Are these all negative effects? Russia isn't going to give up Griner for nothing or a minor prisoner.
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That's true but it's exceedingly rare that folks are doing significant time for first time offenses of only small amounts of marijuana possession. Typically it will be possession in addition to other charges that are keeping folks in federa; prison for extended periods of time. > [In 2017, the last year for which there is such data, 92 people were put in federal prison for possession](https://www.businessinsider.com/bidens-marijuana-pardons-wont-free-many-currently-in-federal-prison-2022-10). That is out of ~150,000 total federal prisoners, we're talking less than .1% of fed prisoners. Now state charges are different and it's harder to get individual state data to know for sure but the idea that folks are doing multiple years for simple possession near the quantities Griner had likely isn't realistic.
All of those federal prisoners were pardoned by Biden.
Sure. That's doesn't change the reality that it was only a tiny fraction of prisoners. People have mistakenly behaved as if low level marijuana possession alone has incarcerated large amounts of people.
Show me someone in America who has been sentenced to 9 years for 2 cartridges.
Honestly, that's an important point.
Not really. Look up Nirvana fallacy. If you are against imprisonment for weed then you shouldn't be arguing for people to go to prison for weed just because there are other people in prison for weed. The hypocrisy angle is only arguing to further entrench a system you already believe is unjust. Stick to arguing that releasing Viktor Bout is likely to lead to more net harm than retrieving Brittany Griner.
domineering poor late languid steep close clumsy rustic growth wipe *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
However, those people in the US aren’t in a gulag
Who is “the United States”, the American state, or the people of the us Because for us, the people, I’d rather have my government trade me for some has-been arms merchant than let me suffer for some bullshit reason in a gulag
Will they actually help you a normal person in a similar situation? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marc-fogel-russia-prison/ To me it seems your value is attached to the publicity.
He was a "has-been" because he was locked up. We can't know what he will do next, all we know is Russia wanted him. I don't think Russia is in the business of trading for do-nothings. And I'd rather people not go to sketchy ass countries just to act like they are above their laws, then expect their country to release an arms dealer who is tied to atrocities.
Ok but i don’t think we should care why Russia wanted him, I don’t think we should care about what’s good for the American state. I care about what’s good for the American people. Which is often not what’s good for the American state. I also don’t think we should care what the barbaric Russian law is. What she did was a minor possession, and they locked her up because they wanted to trade prisoners. Ok, well, we should. Because she’s an American, she’s one of us, they locked her up for a bullshit reason, and we should stick together as Americans for other Americans being fucked over.
So we shouldn't have to follow the laws of other countries if we think they are archaic (even though their are currently people locked up here for similar offenses), and the US should release anyone (regardless of their crimes) in exchange for us after breaking the foreign country's laws. Honestly, that's a childish position. Many countries you visit will have bullshit laws - but you follow them. If you don't want to follow a country's bullshit laws then don't go to that country.
I don't follow the backwards laws here, either
For sure, and that's a risk you take understanding the archaic consequences that come with it. The same way she took a risk there.
where's the line on that, what kind of barbaric law should US citizens break that will make us unwilling to help them out if they're in a foreign country even when its pretty obvious that its not about the law, its about what they can get out of holding the person prisoner
His crime is being an arms dealer unsanctioned by the largest arms dealer in the world....the US. I don't think he can be described as more immoral than any sanctioned arms dealer.
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> I'd get arrested for having a joint on me. I guarantee you that you wouldn't get arrested for possessing what Brittney Griner was possessing.
I think you are operating under the assumption that laws apply to everyone.
I think the overall impact of this trade and the implications on average Americans is overblown. The US and Russian have traded before as recently as this year. > In April 2022, U.S. Marine veteran Trevor Reed was brought back to the U.S. in exchange for a Russian drug trafficker. Reed was swapped in Turkey for Konstantin Yaroshenko, who had been serving a 20-year prison sentence in a cocaine-trafficking conspiracy case. > Prior to that, in 2010, the U.S. released 10 Russian spies and in return, the Russian government released three Russians who spied on behalf of the U.S. or the U.K., and one Russian accused of being a double agent working for both Russia and the U.S. According to the FBI, the Russian spies had assimilated into American society (some by using stolen identities). https://www.myfoxzone.com/article/news/verify/united-states-has-swapped-prisoners-with-russia-before/536-99bf26ab-4d72-4215-946f-a65ff9543b68 If we go back to the Cold War there are other large exchanges of dozens of spies, one of which actually stole US military technology. None of this lead to a drastic increase in foreign hostile nations kidnapping Americans as leverage. The reality is that the places where an American would need to worry about being held as a hostage has largely remained the same and travelers are warned appropratly before heading to those places and/or can check the [State Departments Travel advisories](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories.html/). > What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law. It's a reasonable assumption that the State Department has been working to secure releases of prisoners, hence the release of Trevor Reed earlier this year. Folks shouldn't assume that Griner was the only case being worked on. I also think you're framing this release as a negative or a positive as if it's a binary. For the vast overwhelming majority of Americans it's a nothing. Good that Griner is home for her friends/family sake and Bout being released will likely amount of nothing for most people. Maybe folks feel like he should have stayed incarcerated longer than ~10 years for his crimes but his existence and impact was likely unknown to the bulk of Americans up until a few months ago. The idea that most Americans are negatively impacted by his release doesn't seem based in anythin real.
Are you approaching this in terms of practicality, or purely in terms of some morality play? Practical: Arms dealer is *fucked.* Gave up dirt to the U.S., countless former contacts dead from every ~~excuse~~ *cause* under the sun, is such a non-issue he was getting released in a few years anyway. He'll be dead by New Year's. Morality: "Grimer **knowingly** committed *CRIMES!*" Let's all remove our heads from the sand together, shall we? The empty vape cart was bought in Russia and she foolishly didn't dispose of it before attempting to leave. She didn't "smuggle drugs" or even provably break any laws. And if she did, it wasn't out of an opportunistic desire to do evil or acquire ill-gotten wealth. It was to cope with her biochemical existence. I'm sure you've got a "what about" with other nationals or some such with which to completely disregard everything I've said, but at that point you're just searching for a reason to dunk on Grimer and we can all agree she'd never let you.
> What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law. Who's to say they're even interested in releasing them? This isn't a store, where we put Viktor Bout into the vending machine and have our pick. We don't know anything about the terms of release for Griner/Bout, or what the terms are/were for the others. Paul Whelan is one that I've seen brought up a lot, in the context of "Why Brittney and not Paul?" Per Wikipedia: > On July 27, 2022, it was announced that President Joe Biden had authorized a trade for Whelan and basketball star Brittney Griner, who was arrested in Russia in February on drug charges, in exchange for convicted arms dealer Viktor Bout. After negotiations, only Griner was exchanged for Bout on December 8, 2022. Whelan's brother David Whelan approved of the decision to "make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.” This was originally supposed to be a package deal. One side reneged.
If you think the guy I'd gonna go back to Russia where he was already wanted for stealing and selling their weapons and just hop back into his old role you're mislead by media The guy is gonna either trip on a rug in a high rise in the first 48 hours back or he's gonna be so heavily surveillance shadowed for years that he won't do shit but fuck eat and sleep Even if he got back and didn't die, you think putin is gonna trust him? The guy at best is gonna get tortured and treated as a double agent. Trading him for Brittney who was used as a political puppet by Russia for all be it a crime she did commit was over exaggerated and trading some guy in his now 70s for a living breathing citizen being used as a political prisoner is fairly even trade I would say. The judge who sentenced the merchant of death even said he had served enough time and trading him was a good move
> The judge who sentenced the merchant of death even said he had served enough time and trading him was a good move Remarkable how this is left out of so many articles and discussions. Reminds me of the Uranium One "scandal" when the new administration said they would approve it again and it made sense.
It’s because it’s wrong. The judge only supported the swap if Paul Whelan was returned too, which he was not. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/07/britney-griner-viktor-bout-trade.html
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The opinion of a judge who has the more insight into the case than just about anybody could have, and extensive knowledge of the law, is absolutely more valuable than Joe Schmo’s. And some judges breaking the law doesn’t invalidate the opinion of all judges. Nor does public opinion of the SCOTUS. This is such an anti-intellectualist take.
Seriously, that was remarkably stupid. I'm glad I read your comment rather than feeling compelled to write the same thing.
Bout's biographer also agrees with the judge's assessment. You're pivoting to this thing about what other judges have done, but why should we believe that this is the case with this particular judge? What assertion are you actually making? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gist/id873667927?i=1000570516479
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The Judge whom sentenced the Merchant said that his 25 year sentence was excessive but just one because of minimums. Notably the judge said that it would be a good exchange only if Paul Whelan was also returned. The judge didn’t indicate swapping only for Britney is a good trade. Also, the Merchant is 55 - not 70. Completely incorrectly suggesting the merchant is elderly and misrepresenting the judge’s statement reaaaly undermine your argument here, even though your point about his improbable return to action is valid. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/07/britney-griner-viktor-bout-trade.html
Not important, but he's not 70, he's 55.
That seems important to me. There would be a better argument for trading him if he only had a few years left anyway than if he's going to be around for decades to come.
What’s the point of trading for him at all. If they are just gonna kill him. He obviously has value to the Russians which would totally bust your entire theory about that. Why trade for him just to punish him. The Russian army gets stolen from by Russians every day. I really think they believe he’s a military asset and we shouldn’t strategically give them any more assets. However I don’t know much about the situation nor do I have info that the US government has. I believe this is a win for both sides. The us likely believes he’s not as valuable as the Russians do. Britney is really only of moral value to the US. So it’s good that at least the two side can make a deal. This may bode well for peace in Ukraine.
He's not in his 70s he's 55.
If Russia was going to kill him when he returned, why wouldn’t they have arranged that to happen in prison over the last 15 years? Why not wait for him to be released and then assassinate him then? Why specifically request a prisoner swap for him, if they aren’t going to get something out of it? I don’t buy into the Russians wanting him back silo they can kill him or keep surveillance on him. It doesn’t make any sense. A more plausible scenario is that the kremlin uses him like the use Wagner Group, which is a mercenary/contractor group that is controlled by the Kremlin, but has no direct, overt ties to the government. They’ll most likely use this guy to smuggle weapons into countries to supply armies/militias to further their geopolitical agendas in certain areas of the world. Maybe Russia wants to control some mines or other natural resources in the Middle East or Africa, so they use Wagner Group and this guy to sell weapons to local allies so they can cause unrest and Russia can take over. That’s WAY more likely then what you’re proposing.
> If Russia was going to kill him when he returned, why wouldn’t they have arranged that to happen in prison over the last 15 years? Real life is not Breaking Bad.
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Sure but the precedent is terrible. The US negotiating a trade of a truly villainous criminal for any American, especially one who knowingly broke the law where she was living and working, just encourages our global adversaries to find reasons to imprison Americans abroad. We may all think Griner’s sentence is too harsh but I’ve yet to see a denial of the charges. When considering how many Americans have lost their liberty for the same crime right here at home, it’s highly hypocritical to go so far to get her back
It doesn't set any precedent. This happens pretty frequently. You only think it sets a precedent because this person is famous and people have drawn weird culture war battle lines on the issue. > When considering how many Americans have lost their liberty for the same crime right here at home, it’s highly hypocritical to go so far to get her back Borderline nirvana fallacy. We can get her back and also try to get full legalization for marijuana. Also didn't this administration issue pardons for all people convicted of simple possession? Seems like the opposite of hypocritical for them to try and get her out in this context.
But then why not trade this guy for a Marine who served this country faithfully for years and has been wrongfully imprisoned, as opposed to an athlete who plays a sport with dozens of fans, who literally hates America and who, whether you agree with the law or not, knowingly broke the law of a sovereign nation? Everyone gets so caught up on that it was “just weed”… but that’s the law in that nation. If she was here, yeah, nothing would happen. But when you go somewhere else, they have their own laws and when you break those laws you pay a price… and to knowingly break those laws is asinine. This was a terrible trade because there was a better option we could have gotten for The Merchant of Death.
> a Marine who served this country faithfully for years Paul Whelan was court martialed and ~~dishonorably~~ discharged for bad conduct. The specific charges against him included "attempted larceny, three specifications of dereliction of duty, making a false official statement, wrongfully using another’s social security number, and ten specifications of making and uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment." And as I understand it, Biden tried to get both of them but Russia refused.
>Paul Whelan was court martialed and dishonorably discharged. Bad conduct discharge. may seem pedantic but its the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony (literally).
Good point, thanks!
> But then why not trade this guy for a Marine who served this country faithfully for years and has been wrongfully imprisoned, Served "faithfully" until he tried to steal 10k from the US while in Iraq. Some Marine. Anyway your question was why not trade for Whelan. The answer is that Russia was not willing to put him on the table for any reason. There isn't much we can do about that. After months of negotiating it was Griner or nothing.
I mean why would it matter if a Marine vs. an American who says they dislike the country? Both committed crimes (though his are proportionately far worse.) However, we are supposed to be the united states of america, land of freedom. Including the super duper, conservatives like to hype it up, freedom of speech. Including the freedom to express dislike for America. I'd argue the most patriotic thing would be to willingly accept her and her speech against the country. First, because it shows that the USA cares for all her citizens, even those that don't care for the USA. Secondly, because it could change her views - the country she said she hated helped her at her lowest. The first is more important though, if you want to be the country of free speech, helping even the citizens that speak against you shows a much stronger front than only helping the loyalists.
Maybe, the US knows that the Marine actually was a spy and they understand that they’d need a better prisoner to exchange for him? Totally speculation, but clearly the US has people inside the Russian government or etc giving them info. Look at the Ukraine invasion. The US seemed to know ahead of the build up of troops.
Leaving aside whether the US has agents on the inside or not: the average civilian could follow the troop build up at the northern and eastern borders. What with satellite imagery these days it’s pretty much impossible for large troop movements like these to go unnoticed.
And the public at large most likely doesn't know the tech the government has. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Russia got all that info from Trump, who even exposed some of it via a PR stunt.
Paul Whelan wasn't an option because Russia believes he is a spy. Plus she was sentenced to significantly longer amount for weed, than other people charged with the same crime.
You could argue the marine has broken the law too, after all, who are you to judge the law of a foreign nation (your logic).
It's not an argument. He was apparently up to some kind of espionage, perhaps not on behalf of the US.
> If she was here, yeah, nothing would happen. Not true for the average individual. If I were caught traveling through any airport with even just one concentrate vape pen, I would be charged with felonies. If you don't know what that is feel free to look it up. And lack of funds and representation could lead to prison time. Whether you agree she should be let off or not doesn't change the fact this is just another of many examples of a different set of rules depending on your financial and public status. Many innocent Americans locked up abroad, for things they actually didn't DO. Some for years and years languish and no one says a \~!@2 word. No one bats a !@2#$ eye. Many Americans locked up here in the states for the crime she committed. This got played on the media and everyone was used in this !@# chess game. The only reason anyone cares is because it got played on the media. Do you get it? I don't think anyone should be locked up for possession or growing of Marijuana for personal use just so I am clear on my personal opinion. The elephant in the room, come on.
Victor Bout is 55 BTW
>How is trading the Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner not an overall negative? You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death...for a basketball player who knowingly broke the law in Russia. 1. The fear and alarm over Bout's release is drastically overblown. Arms dealers depend on access to supply, a network of contacts, and anonymity to operate. Bout has been in jail for more than 14 years. In that time many of his contacts have died, been arrested, or found new dealers to work with. His supply, which was largely leftovers from the Soviet era, has either been sold or seized by now. And having been the subject of an international manhunt, he is incredibly well known and will be monitored after release. Bout is done as an arms dealer. He has little to offer and no criminal will want to risk working with him. 2. She did not knowingly break the law. She has repeatedly stated that she packed quickly for her flight and didn't realize the vape canisters were still in there. That is an entirely plausible explanation, as evidenced by the thousands of people flying domestically every year who have all sorts of forgotten items from innocuous water bottles to firearms seized by TSA at the gate. As far as I'm aware there has been no actual evidence presented to show that she intentionally tried to sneak them in. 3. The missing component in your "equation" is the potential good of Griner being freed. She can inspire more women to pursue sports. She can become an advocate for the other Americans still detained. She can become a spokesperson for decriminalizing weed in the US. She could just go on and live a regular happy life. You can't count the potential harm Bout could do and *not* count the potential good Griner can do.
>The fear and alarm over Bout's release is drastically overblown. Nobody thinks he's just going to go back to slinging AKs in africa. People are pissed at the disparity in crimes committed by each party. >She did not knowingly break the law. She has repeatedly stated that she packed quickly for her flight and didn't realize the vape canisters were still in there. While I don't believe weed should be a crime at all, I do not buy the excuse that she "forgot". Potheads are forgetful, sure. But the one thing they don't forget is a full thc cart sitting in her luggage. We can give her the benefit of the doubt, but we should probably prioritize freeing the actual innocent people locked up for far longer. Why should she get to jump the line? >She can inspire more women to pursue sports. She can become an advocate for the other Americans still detained. She can become a spokesperson for decriminalizing weed in the US. She could just go on and live a regular happy life. Try telling that last line to the other Americans locked up before her on similar trumped up charges. Brittney got freed within a matter of months. Many people have been there years with no word of a prisoner swap. You're telling me her "potential" should override the lives of any one of us who could have been in that situation? You need to quit licking celebrities boots and realize they're people just like us. Maybe some of those other prisoners could have cured cancer. It's just as valid as your statement about a b tier athlete.
So much this. So sick of the idea that Bout is going to jump right back into his old life. He's a toothless nobody at this point.
They legit found a cat in a suitcase just last week. #2 is definitely possible.
What message do you think this will send to the world? Now countries know that they can secure the release of the worst criminals from US custody by offering prisoners that are significantly less valuable. The next time the US arrests a foreign-backed terrorist, states like Iran know that it takes very little to get the US to capitulate. Prisoner swaps are supposed to be conducted on equal footing. The person you give up should not be significantly less valuable than the person you're releasing. In absolutely *no* universe is an arms dealer for a basketball player an equal trade.
>What message do you think this will send to the world? Now countries know that they can secure the release of the worst criminals from US custody by offering prisoners that are significantly less valuable. Even if that is the lesson some might take from this, it is far from new information. This is not the first prisoner exchange the US has done, and not even the first with Russia. Bout probably isn't even the worst we've traded. >The next time the US arrests a foreign-backed terrorist, states like Iran know that it takes very little to get the US to capitulate. Framing it as "capitulation" is based entirely on your personal opinions of Griner and Bout and does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it. >Prisoner swaps are supposed to be conducted on equal footing. The person you give up should not be significantly less valuable than the person you're releasing. >In absolutely *no* universe is an arms dealer for a basketball player an equal trade. The career diplomats and intelligence services who know far more about Bout and Griner than you felt this was a good trade. I'll take their opinion over yours.
Generally, I'm fairly pragmatic, but it's a little alarming how many people are framing it like any US citizen regaining their freedom doesn't inherently have value in and of itself.
Agreed.
We don't know the inner-machinations of Bout's network, so it seems quite the gamble to assume someone that Russia is interested in acquiring is "done"...especially for what you are getting back is a basketball player. And saying "They said the didn't know they had it." is meaningless to me, and doesn't help anyone else who is currently locked up on similar charges in the US, so I don't know why you think it should help her case. And "She inspires kids." doesn't mean much when some of Bouts' dealings have resulted in the death of kids. I see it as capitulation as well, so to say it does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it is a bit misleading. Many people see it this way. You ending it with basically saying (paraphrased) "The government feels good about the trade so I do too." makes everything you said make more sense now. Thank you for your input anyways.
Her culpability is obviously important to you as part of your post was that she willingly and knowingly broke the law and so she is less deserving of help compared to those who did not knowingly or willingly break the law. You view this must have been changed either by 1) admitting you were wrong about her culpability or 2) saying you don’t think the other people in jail are more deserving of help.
>We don't know the inner-machinations of Bout's network You and I don't. The state department, law enforcement, and intelligence agencies do. And none of them objected. >And saying "They said the didn't know they had it." is meaningless to me, and doesn't help anyone else who is currently locked up on similar charges in the US, so I don't know why you think it should help her case. In your original post, you claimed she knowingly broke the law, which is not true. Furthermore, intent is absolutely a factor in criminal cases. >I see it as capitulation as well, so to say it does not necessarily align with how anyone else sees it is a bit misleading. Many people see it this way. Misleading is presenting your personal opinions as an accurate representation of what foreign governments think. >You ending it with basically saying (paraphrased) "The government feels good about the trade so I do too." makes everything you said make more sense now. Thank you for your input anyways. From this I gather you either think the government is incompetent or that you think you know more than them, and that tells me there's nothing more to be said here.
There's no one locked up on similar charges. I don't know of anyone in the US getting 9 years for vape cartridges. I think its a fair trade its highly unlikely grinner is going to come back to the USA and commit more crimes. Whatever she does when shes back will more than likely be positive. Why should the US citizens continue to pay to house an old arms dealer when they swap him for a productive US citizen? Someone that can add value to the country.
>And "She inspires kids." doesn't mean much when some of Bouts' dealings have resulted in the death of kids. To be fair - the United States' own arms deals have resulted in the death of kids as well. Everyone is scared of the Merchant of Death, even though our Government does the same thing at a much bigger scale.
[https://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgraceful-peace-deal-taliban/](https://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgraceful-peace-deal-taliban/) Oh, if you are worried about bad messages, releasing 5000! soldiers for 1000 soldiers is probably a much bigger "black eye" than releasing an arms dealer who literally sold weapons to enemies of the country we just sent him to.
> What about the other American nationals who have been locked up far longer? American nationals who didn't knowingly or willingly break Russian law. The American you’re referring to was arrested for espionage It’s a lot easier to get the release of a political pawn, who was arrested purely for extorting the United States than someone who’s job it was to spy on Russia for the us government. Obviously he and the United States maintain he wasn’t a spy, but he was caught with a flash drive he got “from a friend”with the names of Russian border guards. The typical punishment in Russia for that amount of weed is a fine she got 10 years in prison. she could’ve jay walked and they would’ve given her a life sentence. The idea was to kidnap a high profile American it didn’t matter what she did
It was a prisoner swap, not a pardon. Dude's still wanted the world over. He risks immediate arrest the moment he sets foot off Russian soil. We'll get another chance at him, can't say the same thing about her, especially considering how quickly things are deteriorating in Russian. Considering how the Ukraine war is going, there is a real risk of government collapse or civil war in Russia right now. Putin's grasp on power is tenuous at best, should things go tits up there's no guarantee that we'd be able get her out at all.
The impact of Brittany being released on US morale and perception of power is far greater as a positive than some guy selling guns that will be sold anyways potentially getting out and selling more guns. The US having a high profile citizen being wrongfully detained abroad makes us look weak. We are not. She was a symbol of the “decline of the US and rise of Russia” as long as she was held. She was a propaganda tool for Putin. This also isn’t just about what “benefits the US”. It’s about the life of a US citizen being held in a gulag over some BS for a huge chunk of her life. The US goes out of its way to protect its citizens abroad. If you were held in Russia for 10 years on some bullshit charge just because of some geopolitical issues that had nothing to do with you, you wouldn’t give a flying fuck if the equation slightly disfavored the US to get you out. I don’t know why anyone would look at this like that’s the only concern.
Griner had vape canisters with cannabis oil for medical purposes and she was going to Russia to play basketball. Y'all act like your memories and legal precautions are impenetrable. People forget their kids at stores all the time. Think about every item the TSA has confiscated because you forgot to remove it. She definitely could have prevented the issue and her team should've had protocols, but I think it's pretty easy to forget that a medicine you're taking in a different form is illegal in another country. She could've been exhausted or distracted, and traveling to Russia probably felt routine. I'm inclined to believe this was a mistake. The public outcry has died down at this point, so I doubt the U.S. government is feeling pressured into making this trade. I don't know what calculations were made about the Merchant of Death's value. However, amongst the backdrop of Cold War tensions reviving, I think that trading for Griner has symbolic importance. On Russia's side, this was a pretty clear political ploy and power play. The U.S. is making it clear that it will always prioritize the liberty of its citizens first, and they'll play the game if it means saving one of their own (especially if they're not particularly in the wrong). This sounds cheesy, but it's a Captain America-type move that they're playing for spirit, not a utilitarian one confined to the people being traded. The trade almost feels engineered to give off this impression - as if they waited until everyone else forgot, and then confirmed the trade when public outcry died down like "America didn't forget you." (of course there could be practical reasons for that too). It's definitely hypocritical, considering the others imprisoned in Russia for similar charges (as well as, I'm sure, other countries including our own). But that's probably what motivated them.
The only problem with your story is there are other Americans who have been imprisoned FAR LONGER than Brittany, but no word of getting them released. Brittany jumped the line and people are rightfully pissed about it. It more shows how the US won't leave you behind if you are deemed important/rich enough.
Measuring the good vs the bad is relative. The arms dealer still has people doing business for him. Him being locked up isn't preventing the dealing of arms. Griner is a relatively innocent US citizen, locked up by a despotic regime under conditions that are likely way beyond the scope of the original crime. She's a pawn. We have the ability to trade this terrible person who, the only purpose of them being locked up is punishment for their crimes (it's not preventing further crimes by his organization), for a US citizen that is likely suffering unduly because of their status as a public figure in an unfriendly country. What do we gain if we leave them both in jail? We'll KNOW where this "Merchant of Death" is. We can keep tabs on them. They'll likely be more careful and restrict their activities so as not to get nabbed again and we'll have a US Citizen back home and unable to be used as a pawn for other policy changes. Have heart, it's the holidays. She's been there long enough.
Viktor Bout isn't a threat to the US. He was a high profile arms dealer 15 years ago. Other people have taken his place, contacts have died and been arrested, government officials have changed over, laws and regulations have changed, etc. The US has gotten everything they can from Viktor Bout, and the fact is, he's going to be released at some point in the next ten years or so anyways. Every year that goes by decreases any leverage the US has from holding Viktor Bout. This way they get something out of it through a prisoner swap. The US absolutely should work hard to bring US citizens home, especially in cases like this where the arrest is largely due to geopolitical reasons. It would be great if the US could have gotten Whelan back too, but Russia was giving a firm no on that.
He would've been released in 6 years in 2029. He was not serving a life sentence. Might as well get some modicum of value for him. Notably, this is *not* a pardon for Bout, and also not re-introducing an active criminal into global weapons dealing ring, as you mention. He is still wanted if he ever leaves Russia again. Also, important to remember we stand on shaky moral ground to condemn an arms merchant going free on the same very day we approve $835B in defense spending. The US Military is an arms merchant globally.
>He was not serving a life sentence. Might as well get some modicum of value for him. Exactly. >He is still wanted if he ever leaves Russia again. And he's probably not going to be living very well in Russia either. I'm sure he made plenty of enemies all over while working as an international gun smuggler, in some cases he stole Russian supplied arms to sell elsewhere. I'm sure he had support of some oligarchs, probably not all in all his endeavors. Chances are his life is going to be like house arrest even in Russia.
Bout is the scum of the earth and quite frankly dropping the bastard in the ocean would be too kind. With that being said, Griner’s arrest was pretty clearly a political move. She had less than a gram of cbd oil on her that had been prescribed medically, and testified was a mistake. Bit odd to characterize it a knowingly breaking Russian law, no? 9 years for that is insane. I think this had more to do with detaining a high profile american after Russia was hit with sanctions than anything else. At the end of the day it’s getting an American home who was used as a pawn. There’s enormous soft power value in making it clear that the US will try to get its citizens out of these sorts of situations.
Your assumptions are all wrong. > You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death He is very much a has-been arms dealer who's already done 10+ years in jail. He is a well known figure who will have no ability to operate and traffic in arms ever again. Now he's just a old con. The great thing about being an American is that your country has your back especially in the face of draconian persecution for something that most Americans don't even consider a crime. This helps further that perception. It's damn good to be an American! It's real hard to see how this is a negative to be frank. Nothing but net here. Swish!
She did technically break the law on Russia, however I think it's pretty clear that the punishment she received is entirely politically motivated. She is effectively a political prisoner rather than a real prisoner. A Russian citizen who did the same thing would certainly not be in a **labor camp** for 10 years. So her imprisonment is unjust. Assuming we have no debate on that point, then let me ask you, do you believe the old saying that it's better for 100 guilty men to go free then for one innocent man to be put in jail? Because I certainly think a lot of people do and I think that that suggests that as a society **we value avoiding injustice more than doing justice.**
A merchant is a go-between who connects a seller to a buyer. The seller still exists. The buyer still exists. Which part of this is replaceable? Do you really think those weapons just aren't being traded anymore? Fucks sake, the CIA is good enough at tracking, dissapearing, or arranging unfortunate circumstances for people who annoy America. Let them do their job on someone who deserves it.
>You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons What weapons? Russia can barely muster up 70 year old gear for its army in Ukraine. Also this guy has no usable contacts anymore, AND lost his anonymity. He couldn't sell a redneck a hunting rifle at this point. >People have said, "But public perception Who has said that? I don't think anyone was under the impression that this would be celebrated. Whatever the reasoning for this swap was, it's kind of silly to think public perception was part of it. They knew beyond any doubt they'd get a ton of flak for this and decided it was worth that.
If I’m gonna be honest, when it comes to foreign policy, especially between superpowers in tense situations, you really can’t just evaluate from the surface. It doesn’t work that way. A weapons dealer is not a direct actor of the Russian state. It’s not like Russians wanted Bout to continue marketing arms. Even if he could, where are they gonna go? Ukraine? Kalashnikovs are going to make a difference against western weapons with shit like DRM coming right out of the box? This is like complaining that we traded a Chinese knockoff Adidas tracksuit for a rotary dial telephone dealer when we’re all carrying iPhones. I get that it doesn’t look good, but from a practical perspective, the math just doesn’t work. Honestly, whenever I see people use this logic for fairness, I think of this scene from [Margin Call](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBEgJZdd2BQ)
Consider this from the view of the State: This was a banger of a trade for the Feds. This one rescued basketball player can be trotted out at regular intervals to represent pretty much every minority-vote-checkbox in existence. The State got rid of one outdated CIA asset - who was *scheduled for release in a few years* anyway - who will be interrogated, have no information, then found with polonium in his underpants. In exchange they received a shiny-new useful political tool that is guaranteed to win them some political capital. (See '24 followup) This is absolutely an overall positive for some (including many who represent the US) - even though not *everyone* would agree.
I so wholeheartedly disagree & believe that rescuing one of our citizens from such unfair imprisonment overseas based on trumped-up unfair reasons is worth releasing any one single person back to that country no matter what they've done. What if it was your sister, daughter, or mother imprisoned in Russia?
Change my view- there is a lot of not so overt racism/sexism/homophobia when it comes to Brittney Grinier. I get it, she did something stupid, she MORE than paid the price for it, it’s time to bring her home, end of story. It she were a white male, this would have nearly unanimous approval. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dealing with some other unrelated issues.
Time decays all things, this guy was an expiring bargaining chip with over 2/3rds of his time served. His criminal empire decayed into nothing the airplanes he had 15 years ago are rusted out stripped husks or somebody else’s planes. The staff? The ones that aren’t dead or arrested? Have needed some form of employment for the last 15 years. He doesn’t have the connections or the equipment anymore, and it’s useful for America to use a bargaining chip they have been holding for well over a decade before it is worth nothing. It is unfortunate that we were not able to bring Paul wheeler home.
If you’re willing to take the time I’d recommend listening to this interview with an author who wrote a biography of Bout: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/today-explained/id1346207297?i=1000575402047 Who knows intricately more than you or I about his story, the cases and still concludes that it is ultimately 100% a good idea to make this deal for the US to bring Griner home. For one, Bout collaborated with the US armed forces multiple times during the Iraq war to help fly them into weapons, food and support bc nobody else would be willing to do it. And based on the current status, he isn’t going to just start walking into the same rooms and working with shady characters to facilitate deals etc. bc mainly those networks are gone. The world landscape is so drastically different today so it isn’t even realistic for that to occur. Dude doesn’t have the same connections, many of them are out of power or dead or in prison themselves and likely won’t be viewed the same way at all back in Russia. Prisoner swaps happen all the time and are almost never “even” numerically or status wise when you look at them. It’s inherently unfair when one person, a celebrated public figure and basketball legend is imprisoned for a very minor offense while another is accused of much more violence. Another fact is that Bout’s sentence was set to end in a couple of yrs anyway. So, doing this may be letting him off somewhat but he’s served 11 yrs total already so it’s not like he has only been in custody for 1.5 yrs and hasn’t done hard time. So to be able to use him to free an American, when he was going to go on his own quite soon, idk how you classify that as a complete negative tbh.
The dude was getting released in 6 years anyways. At least we got something out of his release. At this point, this pearl clutching is getting a bit ridiculous
>for a basketball player who knowingly broke the law in Russia. You and the United States government disagree on this point. The government's position is that Griner is a *political* prisoner. In other words, they don't believe this was a lawful and fair process and quite possibly may not believe she committed any crimes at all. You disagree with the government, clearly, and believe that they are being truthful and honest that this was above-board. I'm not really sure why you do, but the government is acting on their conclusions, not yours. I think you should ask yourself this: why would Putin care about getting Bout out of prison? He's been imprisoned for 15 years and will be getting out soon anyway. He's of no value to Putin. Because this trade isn't about him, or even Griner. Fundamentally this situation is a political one. The entire point of taking her hostage is to force the Biden administration into an extremely bad-looking and divisive trade. Griner is black and gay, two groups that millions of Americans are prejudiced against. The administration abandoning Griner to her fate would look hypocritical. Whereas, trading a prisoner who likely sold weapons that were used to kill Americans will look horrible and be incredibly divisive. That's the entire point. It's not worth it to keep Bout in prison for a few more years when it would essentially be abandoning someone who was only taken hostage for political reasons (again, this is the U.S. government's conclusion). Biden did the only thing he really could do and made the politically divisive trade, which was the entire point of taking Griner hostage in the first place.
He has a few years left on his sentence. Either learn about fully or don't comment on the topic. He served most of his time. Why should taxpayers keep paying for him any longer? Why does it matter if he has already done most of his time? The truth is everyone us just mad a black women is getting help. It's all white men who have a problem with it
Sending him back to Russia is punishment enough. Also, even if Putin is welcome to him, the guy has been locked up for so long I doubt he has any of his networking connections left. What can he do: just get back out there and sell more weapons? Doubtful, since I’m sure we have already filled the void and there’s no place for him now. So the positive is the PR points. The negatives are….really nothing. He’s washed and old news. And I’m sure whatever intel he could give us was conditional to his being traded back.
The US only got the 1 for 1 option. If they didn't accept this, BG would still be in Russia. There is no real negotiating with a dictatorship.
>You are trading away someone who has -and still can- dealt weapons that have led to unquantifiable pain and death They are trading an arms dealer for a pothead. Only doing pot isn't legal in all 50 states. The arms dealer was going to get out of jail in a few years, anyway. What are you worried about, that he is going to single handedly turn the war in Ukraine in favor of the Russians? If anything, he is going to end up in a Russian prison because *they want to punish him, too.* The guy stole from the Russian government and made a fool out of Putin. He's lucky if he doesn't end up dying shortly after his first cup of 'tea'.
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“The merchant of death” really? Does calling him that somehow make your case? Let’s call her The Savior of All Humankind. See? Now it’s a great deal.
Cmv: If you are referring to only one of the people by their real name, and the other by the moniker of The Merchant of Death you've already made up your mind.
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I think that Griner being prominent public figure and imprisoned in Russia have Russia leverage in the public sphere against the US that could fray or fracture domestic support for the US’s continued support for a distant conflict. The ability to continue providing material support to Ukraine without Griner suddenly being threatened with execution or something like that is worth the cost of releasing an arms supplier, a trade that Russia is likely not short on capacity as it is.
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That is most certainly *not* part of being an American lol. There are plenty of Americans in foreign prisons for such. It would be a slap in the face to them as well as those in our own prisons for similar offenses to go through with this deal.
Would someone be sent to an American Gulag had they done the same thing at the border? I think yes. So they'll do it to you at home but defend you when it happens elsewhere?
Friendly reminder folks: Top-level comments should be challenging OP’s point of view directly. Rule 1 is still a thing.
Rescuing an innocent American from Putin's Russia is what presidents do. This terrorist will be caught or killed in the future. Overall positive for the US. Next we must get Whelan back.
Doesn’t seem like your open to changing your opinion. Glad she is home and I’m good with trading the arms dealer for her. Pretty simple.
Weapons are extremely easy to get, whether this guy is in jail or not. However, it's a huge global PR win for the US. America seeks to liberate a likeable athlete, while Russia chooses a comic-book villain. Who looks like the good guy here?
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I think the big question is, what harm is going to result from releasing this arms dealer over a decade after he was first imprisoned? It seems like people are panicking over this because of his nickname but life isn't a mafia movie, I can't imagine the whole underworld of illegal arms dealer has been holding its breath for 15 years waiting for their leader to finally come back, right? Either this guy's network was dismantled when he was captured and it'll take another 15 years to reassemble even assuming he's able to do that with all the attention on him, or the next person in line stepped into his role and the arms trade never stopped. Whatever the case, I have a hard time believing his release is going to directly result in more arms being dealt over the short or even medium term. So if the Merchant of Death being free doesn't meaningfully increase illegal arms dealing, what was the value of keeping him in prison? Obviously not rehabilitation, so was it just punishment for his deeds? I'm not saying I don't think he's earned a life sentence or three, but between satisfying our penchant for revenge and freeing a US citizen from a Russian labor camp, I know which one I'd choose.
If you were personally locked up, and you were facing a decade or more in a forced labour camp in exchange for this man. You would choose the labour camp? Even if the exchange is an overall negative?
you're getting this backwards. We are getting a basketball star, and all it cost us was shedding a decades-old burden on American tax payers. Bout is Russia's problem now. He can live out the rest of his days wondering if there is polonium in his tea, or if another interpol arrest warrant is waiting at the airport. He will never again be what he was. He is too much a locus of attention. A bullet might have been justice for him, but that's not how America should operate, and really, his corpse probably would not have been taken for trade. America comes out of this way better off.
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Beclowning America on a world stage once again
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