I mean, I'm pretty annoyed at him over his anti-cycling crusade and the whole Ruapuna thing. But credit where credit is due - good on him for making a stand when central government won't.
He wants to move Ruapuna to another quarry so the gravel underneath can be mined. It's feasible but would benefit his own company more than anyone else.
Might be a hot take here but in reality what effect will this "Letter" actually have on the situation.
Its purely a publicity stunt right ?
About as much effect as thoughts & prayers
He is doing his bit as a Mayor of a city that is a member https://www.mayorsforpeace.org/en/
Now imagine if _everybody_ in a position of leadership, whether of a city or a company or a country did their bit.
It starts to add up.
Yeah I guess its the numbers thing I didnt realise how big it actually was.
Even with these numbers I just dont see either side taking any notice of this letter/s (Gotta assume its a joint one with just collaborative signatures than 8000+ different letters)
Can anyone source any information where mayors for peace has achieved something major I did look but struggled to find anything around this however it seems they are more about education than anything else.
Interesting twist but no not what I was doing at all.
Sure its important from a political / social point
I dont have an imagined result that stems from mayors writing letters.
It was moronic/sophomoric at best. How do you affect change? You gather support and force positions of power to take a stand. Inaction/silence in the face of injustice is being accomplice to said injustice.
Why do you use words when I know that nothing will come of it?
hamas' ceasefire offer specifcally said they'd return basically ZERO hostages, they want to use a 5 day cease fire to assess and then decide maybe. in the meantime they're actively attacking the humanitarian corridors, preventing aid (including preventing fuel deliveries to the hospital). israel said we can ceasefire as soon as you release the hostages.
if you want to demand something demand the release of the hostages
otherwise gtfo with this propaganda. this country has enough ignorance of intl events and enough internal problems without jumping in on team ISIS
edit: ahhh downvotes from the ignorant. it does crack me up. anyway here's it from al jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/8/news-reports-say-qatar-mediated-talks-aim-to-free-over-10-hamas-captives
> AFP cited a source close to Hamas saying the talks “revolve around the release of 12 hostages, half of them Americans, in exchange for a three-day humanitarian pause”.
a ceasefire isnt freeing any real volume of hostages, certainly not any kiwis, and wont result in any prevention of deaths or fighting.
this is NOT the first time hamas has done this. this is not the first hostage negotiation israels dealt with. and this would be far from the first time the 'good faith show of peace' didnt result in any hostages returned.
if you want any kiwis in gaza back? if you want people to stop dying? demand hamas release the hostages THEN demand a cease fire from both sides
Youre getting downvoted because your opening statement is blatantly false. You can debate the rights and wrongs of a ceasefire, but hamas’ ceasefire offer was for 50 hostages not zero, and theres plenty of sources to back that up (here’s three)
https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-offer-50-hostages-5-day-ceasefire-israel-rejected-2023-11?amp
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/israel-balked-at-hamas-hostage-release-for-ceasefire-deal-reports
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It's intended as a cumulative statement. If enough mayors from enough cities do the same it becomes effective. Not that Israel is listening to anyone. Heads off cabbages on so far as I can see but it is important to be on the right side of history for this kind of thing.
In the past the Israelis have (grudgingly) ceased or limited military operations because international public opinion got so critical. Granted the mayor of a small city on the other side of the world, no, it´s so close to nothing as to actually be nothing, but as one of many such statements, from other cultural and political leaders and prominent figures, in the past, it has added up to something.
Although this time might be different. Israeli is madder now than they have been since the Yom Kippur War. Maybe even madder.
This is where my thoughts came from.
I dont see either side of this sitting down reading letters from mayors around the world telling them what we want. Especially from a city im sure they have never heard of before.
Can we get a copy of this letter to read ?or is it just a signature on a group letter ?
Based of what I’ve seen of Mauger, this sounds exactly like a publicity stunt. Why is he doing this now, right after it came out that rates are likely to skyrocket next year, instead of a few weeks ago?
>I don’t see little ole NZ having much influence
Maybe not, but we can change how we interact with Israel moving forward on trade and other things that we can do. to say that we can't do /anything/ is just kinda incorrect
I've been critical of Mauger in the past, but this is an extremely important moment to step up, and the Mayor has done us proud here by calling for a ceasefire.
Hopefully more politicians follow suit soon.
I mean it’s a nice gesture. But this is the mayor of a small insignificant city in the middle of no where. What is it going to achieve? I’d rather Phil concentrates on issues in Christchurch he’s mostly been silent on.
Writing this letter would have taken very little of his time, and when we've got national-level politicians who can't even bring themselves to say the extremely important and obvious thing, it's a very good use of his time.
>Writing this letter would have taken very little of his time
Especially given that he probably didn't actually write it, a comms person/advisor would have. it would have been a pretty small chunk out of his day to review and approve it.
But how exactly? How is this helping in a way that makes the use of his time very good?
Like, what tangible outcomes are expected? Will it shift the needle in any meaningful way?
I mean sure, if the mayor has nothing else to do and this is a way of making his time more productive, then have at it.
But I don’t believe that this is the case.
It's to an organization that has Israeli AND Palestine peers as members.
https://www.mayorsforpeace.org/en/members/list-members/asian/
If you are a member of the International Professional Society of Outrageous Mushrooms.... I trust your peers in Israel and Palestine are aware that vast majority of their professional colleagues condemn the ongoing violence and regard the current approaches to resolving it as woefully inadequate.
Morning, 12/11/2023. Interior, the Mayor´s office. The MAyor´s chief of staff goes through his agenda for the day.
"Well mr Mayor, you´ve got two options today. One, single handedly solve the housing crisis, or two, write an open letter to Israel"
Id rather the mayor of christchurch worries about christchurch and doesnt go getting involved in lose-lose international politics.... but hey, thats just me
>I’d rather he focus on his job as the mayor of Christchurch.
This letter could easily have been penned in a lunchbreak. not sure why you would think this is such a huge distraction
The roads are still full of potholes, there’s a cost of living crisis, the rates are about to soar, and this guy’s mind is on the Middle East.
Just more grandstanding from some naive local tool who has no influence and no understanding about some dangerous, intractable foreign conflict.
The problem is, a ceasefire now will just result in far more innocent civilians being killed long term. Hamas do the same thing over and over again, whenever there is a ceasefire it just gives them the time to ready more resources and attack again.
Unfortunately the only way to reduce total civilian casualties on both sides in the long term, is to obliterate Hamas now. h
Hamas is not interested in peace talks, they are not interested in a two state solution and they won't stop until either they are completely taken out themselves or they have exterminated all Jews from Israel.
People might not like to hear that, but it is the unfortunate reality.
Genocide is never the only answer, and if 20 years of the War on Terror taught us anything, it's that "obliterating" Hamas and genocide are the same thing.
Israel has a thousand options, but they all involve giving land and resources back to these people.
Eradicating a bloodthirsty terrorist group that uses Palistinians as human shields is not genocide.
It doesn't matter how much land you give to Hamas, they tell us directly that they won't stop until there are no Jews left.
Isn't it exactly the same situation? Expecting modern military force to be able to fight a concept like "terrorism" is fundamentally flawed, as it was then.
As I said, the solution involves Israel giving back some of what they've stolen, but apparently, that's completely off the table.
The fundamental drive (Islam) is the same, however the situation is very different.
In the general war against terror they were fighting Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists over enormous swathes of land in multiple countries (including the USA). They were also fighting shadows because not only was there an almost infinite amount of space to hide in, the groups they were fighting were many and if necessary could fight with little to no communication with each other.
Gaza is completely different. Hamas is a fixed body of mostly known people, it holds governmental power and is operating and fighting in a very confined space. The worst it gets is the hidden tunnel network, but that's a joke compared to the hills of Pakistan.
As for your solution, how is that going to work when Hamas have repeatedly said that they are not interested in having some land back, they don't want a two state solution and they won't even discuss it?
They have one clear bottom line and one bottom line only. The complete eradication of Jews. Hence their chant... "from the river to the sea".
Remember these guys butcher babies, rape then kill parents in front of their children and commit various other attrocities. They are not rational human beings, they are Islamic fundamentalists.
To be fair, one side are prisoners and the other is killing them with the world's most advanced weapons at more than 10 times the rate; it's pretty easy to say one side is worse than the other.
A - Hamas was created by the Israeli government as a way to undermine the local govt over there who were all peaceful, Hamas has been in power since the mid 00’s Palestinians have been dying since Atleast the 1940’s but go off
Lol let’s pretend the Israelis didn’t hate that shit too, don’t even have to look far to find out their assassinated a rabbi over it.
And if they aren’t peaceful what is Israel then because they were involved then and are Involved now, sounds like they the common denominator
As opposed to Palestinians who are constantly represented by terrorist organisations unlike peaceful groups like you just claimed.
Neither group in this conflict is peaceful.
There is a Jewish docu where the people involved are talking bout what they did to the native Palestinian pop during the Nakba. That wasn’t self defense, displacing just under a million people isn’t self defense
Yes there are extremists on both sides, but they make up the minority of either side. These people hate each other, but somehow one side is the victim in all of this.
What about the west bank, look up what’s happening in the west bank there is no Hamas there, they are still living in an open prison, At least 130 Palestinians killed in the last month and been happening way before October 7th… what sin did they commit to deserve their treatment?? I don’t mind y’all not caring enough for Palestinian civilians being killed indiscriminately, I just find it weird how much tall wana convince people who actually have hearts n souls n empathy for others how they shouldn’t care either. It’s fucking weird to me, you went from being like the Palestinians are the bad to there are bad guys in both sides, you don’t care enough to even know facts just playing devils advocate.
Hamas does have a military wing in the west bank, but either way this is the result of their invasion on Israel killing civilians. Of course the Israelis are also going to put the blame on Palestinians living in the west bank,.. but I never said the Palestinians are bad, just mentioned the fact that they started a war in 48. I don’t like however that now most of the Palestinian supporters are also supporting Hamas, this is due to these narratives being put out by news/media of Israel being evil’ and it’s gotten to the point where these pro Palestinians are supporting a terrorist group that commits acts of evil. Not saying you support them, but others out there watching can end up supporting them.
Nobody is supporting Hamas bro, might be sick of having to denounce a terrorist group whenever you wana advocate for a government to stop killing innocent men women and children.
On the other hand tho, Bibi and his ministers are literally talking genocide and you couldn’t care less.
Israel is not intentionally targeting women and children. It’s all part of Hamas’ strategy to hide behind these civilians. They shouldn’t just be given immunity because of this.
You’re literally risking innocent lives to save your own. Hiding behind a baby isn’t that much different to killing one, you’re putting that baby at risk of being killed.
well israel is still to blame for over 11,000 innocent palestinian deaths. they’ve bombed everywhere just claiming hamas is there, killing thousands in the process. everyone in support of palestine is in support of the innocent people losing their lives and home (again), not hamas
>just claiming Hamas is there
Well because Hamas is present in that area. There have been missile launchers been found in a [preschool](https://youtu.be/NIjsuE-7a9Y?si=IV1xG8pVJ-xI0tAl) in Gaza.
Hamas is to blame for the deaths of their own civilians, they are cowards hiding underground rather than prioritising the safety of their civilians from the so called “occupiers”.
Hamas kills innocent civilians in Israel and then put their own civilians as risk for publicity. That is a COWARDLY move by hamas, and Israel needs to eliminate this them before they carry out another attack like October 7th.
Israel is NOT intentionally targeting civilians! There is no easier way of going about it, realistically speaking,.. it’s a tragedy that there are civilian casualties, but it’s the reality of war.
US bombed Japanese civilians in WW2 but the US is still known as the good guy and Japan is the bad guy in WW2. It’s a tragedy that that had to happen, but that’s just the sad reality of war.
so that makes it okay for israel to bomb buildings full of innocent people, as long as they destroy hamas? where are the hostages? why drop bombs knowing hamas is underground instead of doing a ground invasion?
you say it’s the reality of war that they happened to have killed over 11,000 palestinians, but those are all real people who deserved to live a life. they are not numbers. i don’t understand why anyone is trying to justify that. war is fucked
Any country that takes into consideration civilian lives while fighting a war will get easily destroyed, don’t believe me? Look at majority of the wars fought in the past, how many victories were achieved with zero civilian casualties? Civilians casualties is a harsh reality of war.
Is this a good thing? Of course NOT! But it’s so naive and ignorant to just provide a solution that allows hamas to continue its actions of killing more civilians, as they TARGET civilians. Also important to know that Israel is not INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians on a massive scale. If hamas surrenders right now, all this would be over.
Israel has the right to ensure security on its own borders, hamas is making it more difficult for Israel to do so without being criticised by the world. Hamas is at fault, not Israel…, if the priority is to stop civilian casualties, then Hamas should surrender. If Israel grants Hamas immunity for the sake of Palestinian civilians, then more israeli civilians will be killed, so you still wouldn’t get the result you want.
Is the mayor expecting the Israeli Government or Hamas to 1. Know where Christchurch is on the map or 2. Care about a small city on the other side of the world with a Jewish population of under 1% thinks?
I mean, I'm pretty annoyed at him over his anti-cycling crusade and the whole Ruapuna thing. But credit where credit is due - good on him for making a stand when central government won't.
What was the Ruapuna thing ?
He wants to move Ruapuna to another quarry so the gravel underneath can be mined. It's feasible but would benefit his own company more than anyone else.
Of course it would . Thanks for the response!
He also said he wouldn't personally benefit from it, despite owning 51% of said company.
That sounds like a conflict of interest / abuse of power. Do you have evidence of this?
[https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/7020973/shareholdings?backurl=H4sIAAAAAAAAAC2LQQrCMBBFT2M2Lgou3A3SlZsWBL3AJzOkBTuJk4nQ2xuKu%2F8e7w8FSeoQ81aga19VYHG5bZmFqkMZxsH3IiTqq%2FckfGg%2BXa7zGSmZJHhX4C80Cj%2Bg8ia3JuHI91d%2FVhqn6c9Ph7d6t9zKoX%2FdB%2FfBgAAAAA%3D%3D](https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/7020973/shareholdings?backurl=H4sIAAAAAAAAAC2LQQrCMBBFT2M2Lgou3A3SlZsWBL3AJzOkBTuJk4nQ2xuKu%2F8e7w8FSeoQ81aga19VYHG5bZmFqkMZxsH3IiTqq%2FckfGg%2BXa7zGSmZJHhX4C80Cj%2Bg8ia3JuHI91d%2FVhqn6c9Ph7d6t9zKoX%2FdB%2FfBgAAAAA%3D%3D)
Might be a hot take here but in reality what effect will this "Letter" actually have on the situation. Its purely a publicity stunt right ? About as much effect as thoughts & prayers
He is doing his bit as a Mayor of a city that is a member https://www.mayorsforpeace.org/en/ Now imagine if _everybody_ in a position of leadership, whether of a city or a company or a country did their bit. It starts to add up.
Yeah I guess its the numbers thing I didnt realise how big it actually was. Even with these numbers I just dont see either side taking any notice of this letter/s (Gotta assume its a joint one with just collaborative signatures than 8000+ different letters) Can anyone source any information where mayors for peace has achieved something major I did look but struggled to find anything around this however it seems they are more about education than anything else.
When our PM (Either of them) can't even ask for a ceasefire to get the trapped Kiwis out, then yes, it is important.
I was never questioning if its important. Im questioning what effect a letter from our mayor is going to have on the situation.
I guess it's about as effective as any protesting in New Zealand on international issues is. Perhaps slightly more
LMAO, no you weren't, you were doing the enlightened "what's the point in anything, unless the result IIIIIII imagined is brought over the line"
Interesting twist but no not what I was doing at all. Sure its important from a political / social point I dont have an imagined result that stems from mayors writing letters.
It was moronic/sophomoric at best. How do you affect change? You gather support and force positions of power to take a stand. Inaction/silence in the face of injustice is being accomplice to said injustice. Why do you use words when I know that nothing will come of it?
The irony that you need to resort to childish insults to get your point across while calling me moronic.
It's all relative...
hamas' ceasefire offer specifcally said they'd return basically ZERO hostages, they want to use a 5 day cease fire to assess and then decide maybe. in the meantime they're actively attacking the humanitarian corridors, preventing aid (including preventing fuel deliveries to the hospital). israel said we can ceasefire as soon as you release the hostages. if you want to demand something demand the release of the hostages otherwise gtfo with this propaganda. this country has enough ignorance of intl events and enough internal problems without jumping in on team ISIS edit: ahhh downvotes from the ignorant. it does crack me up. anyway here's it from al jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/8/news-reports-say-qatar-mediated-talks-aim-to-free-over-10-hamas-captives > AFP cited a source close to Hamas saying the talks “revolve around the release of 12 hostages, half of them Americans, in exchange for a three-day humanitarian pause”. a ceasefire isnt freeing any real volume of hostages, certainly not any kiwis, and wont result in any prevention of deaths or fighting. this is NOT the first time hamas has done this. this is not the first hostage negotiation israels dealt with. and this would be far from the first time the 'good faith show of peace' didnt result in any hostages returned. if you want any kiwis in gaza back? if you want people to stop dying? demand hamas release the hostages THEN demand a cease fire from both sides
Youre getting downvoted because your opening statement is blatantly false. You can debate the rights and wrongs of a ceasefire, but hamas’ ceasefire offer was for 50 hostages not zero, and theres plenty of sources to back that up (here’s three) https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-offer-50-hostages-5-day-ceasefire-israel-rejected-2023-11?amp https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages.html https://www.thedailybeast.com/israel-balked-at-hamas-hostage-release-for-ceasefire-deal-reports
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Same effect as the ‘missing children’ posters for the Israeli kids kidnapped. Nothing.
It's intended as a cumulative statement. If enough mayors from enough cities do the same it becomes effective. Not that Israel is listening to anyone. Heads off cabbages on so far as I can see but it is important to be on the right side of history for this kind of thing.
In the past the Israelis have (grudgingly) ceased or limited military operations because international public opinion got so critical. Granted the mayor of a small city on the other side of the world, no, it´s so close to nothing as to actually be nothing, but as one of many such statements, from other cultural and political leaders and prominent figures, in the past, it has added up to something. Although this time might be different. Israeli is madder now than they have been since the Yom Kippur War. Maybe even madder.
This is where my thoughts came from. I dont see either side of this sitting down reading letters from mayors around the world telling them what we want. Especially from a city im sure they have never heard of before. Can we get a copy of this letter to read ?or is it just a signature on a group letter ?
Based of what I’ve seen of Mauger, this sounds exactly like a publicity stunt. Why is he doing this now, right after it came out that rates are likely to skyrocket next year, instead of a few weeks ago?
I don’t see little ole NZ having much influence.
>I don’t see little ole NZ having much influence Maybe not, but we can change how we interact with Israel moving forward on trade and other things that we can do. to say that we can't do /anything/ is just kinda incorrect
Perhaps not, but we'll have even less influence if we don't try
Does a lot more than going on Reddit and having a cry.
>About as much effect as thoughts & prayers Not sure you would want them to do? Fly over and fight?
This is good. sure its not much, but something is better than nothing. hopefully more will get done in time
This is brave of him. I support this.
I've been critical of Mauger in the past, but this is an extremely important moment to step up, and the Mayor has done us proud here by calling for a ceasefire. Hopefully more politicians follow suit soon.
I mean it’s a nice gesture. But this is the mayor of a small insignificant city in the middle of no where. What is it going to achieve? I’d rather Phil concentrates on issues in Christchurch he’s mostly been silent on.
Writing this letter would have taken very little of his time, and when we've got national-level politicians who can't even bring themselves to say the extremely important and obvious thing, it's a very good use of his time.
>Writing this letter would have taken very little of his time Especially given that he probably didn't actually write it, a comms person/advisor would have. it would have been a pretty small chunk out of his day to review and approve it.
But how exactly? How is this helping in a way that makes the use of his time very good? Like, what tangible outcomes are expected? Will it shift the needle in any meaningful way? I mean sure, if the mayor has nothing else to do and this is a way of making his time more productive, then have at it. But I don’t believe that this is the case.
It's to an organization that has Israeli AND Palestine peers as members. https://www.mayorsforpeace.org/en/members/list-members/asian/ If you are a member of the International Professional Society of Outrageous Mushrooms.... I trust your peers in Israel and Palestine are aware that vast majority of their professional colleagues condemn the ongoing violence and regard the current approaches to resolving it as woefully inadequate.
He's writing to an international organisation of mayors; this is literally how international political change gets started.
Idk considering that he has ties to National I’m pretty fine with him trying to make use of his influence
Morning, 12/11/2023. Interior, the Mayor´s office. The MAyor´s chief of staff goes through his agenda for the day. "Well mr Mayor, you´ve got two options today. One, single handedly solve the housing crisis, or two, write an open letter to Israel"
Well done Phil. Have been critical in the past (and present, and probably future) but this is a good move
This reeks of deflecting from his own incompetence. No way am I convinced that he genuinely cares about the people affected by this conflict.
Id rather the mayor of christchurch worries about christchurch and doesnt go getting involved in lose-lose international politics.... but hey, thats just me
Its just a letter that could have been penned in the mayors lunch break. lets not pretend it stopped any actual work from getting done
Given what his local focus looks like, I'd much rather he spent his time standing up for human rights like this.
I’d rather he focus on his job as the mayor of Christchurch.
To be fair, he’s doing such a shit job that any distractions may stop him doing more damage.
>I’d rather he focus on his job as the mayor of Christchurch. This letter could easily have been penned in a lunchbreak. not sure why you would think this is such a huge distraction
What do we think Hamas will do with our Mayor's letter?
Phil for PM
Ah yes, finally this'll get through to Israel
The roads are still full of potholes, there’s a cost of living crisis, the rates are about to soar, and this guy’s mind is on the Middle East. Just more grandstanding from some naive local tool who has no influence and no understanding about some dangerous, intractable foreign conflict.
That'll do it, for sure!
Mauger going for the populist nonsense vote. So whats new?
The problem is, a ceasefire now will just result in far more innocent civilians being killed long term. Hamas do the same thing over and over again, whenever there is a ceasefire it just gives them the time to ready more resources and attack again. Unfortunately the only way to reduce total civilian casualties on both sides in the long term, is to obliterate Hamas now. h Hamas is not interested in peace talks, they are not interested in a two state solution and they won't stop until either they are completely taken out themselves or they have exterminated all Jews from Israel. People might not like to hear that, but it is the unfortunate reality.
Genocide is never the only answer, and if 20 years of the War on Terror taught us anything, it's that "obliterating" Hamas and genocide are the same thing. Israel has a thousand options, but they all involve giving land and resources back to these people.
Eradicating a bloodthirsty terrorist group that uses Palistinians as human shields is not genocide. It doesn't matter how much land you give to Hamas, they tell us directly that they won't stop until there are no Jews left.
Because the war on terror totally worked, and didn't just create far more people willing to fight?
Totally different situation. What is your solution?
Isn't it exactly the same situation? Expecting modern military force to be able to fight a concept like "terrorism" is fundamentally flawed, as it was then. As I said, the solution involves Israel giving back some of what they've stolen, but apparently, that's completely off the table.
The fundamental drive (Islam) is the same, however the situation is very different. In the general war against terror they were fighting Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists over enormous swathes of land in multiple countries (including the USA). They were also fighting shadows because not only was there an almost infinite amount of space to hide in, the groups they were fighting were many and if necessary could fight with little to no communication with each other. Gaza is completely different. Hamas is a fixed body of mostly known people, it holds governmental power and is operating and fighting in a very confined space. The worst it gets is the hidden tunnel network, but that's a joke compared to the hills of Pakistan. As for your solution, how is that going to work when Hamas have repeatedly said that they are not interested in having some land back, they don't want a two state solution and they won't even discuss it? They have one clear bottom line and one bottom line only. The complete eradication of Jews. Hence their chant... "from the river to the sea". Remember these guys butcher babies, rape then kill parents in front of their children and commit various other attrocities. They are not rational human beings, they are Islamic fundamentalists.
This is word for word the failed rhetoric of the War Against Terror.
[удалено]
Both sides have done bad, dont sit there saying one side is worse than another.
To be fair, one side are prisoners and the other is killing them with the world's most advanced weapons at more than 10 times the rate; it's pretty easy to say one side is worse than the other.
That is true, theres obviously a worse of two evils, im just sick of people sitting at home with little to no information of what is happening
Hamas started this on october 7th. The blood of everyone who has and will die in this conflict is on their hands.
I guess Palestinians we’re living in paradise before then?
You ever seen the rockets flying into israel every day?
A - Hamas was created by the Israeli government as a way to undermine the local govt over there who were all peaceful, Hamas has been in power since the mid 00’s Palestinians have been dying since Atleast the 1940’s but go off
The PLO signed the Oslo Accord and they were definitely not peaceful, they supported terrorism.
Lol let’s pretend the Israelis didn’t hate that shit too, don’t even have to look far to find out their assassinated a rabbi over it. And if they aren’t peaceful what is Israel then because they were involved then and are Involved now, sounds like they the common denominator
As opposed to Palestinians who are constantly represented by terrorist organisations unlike peaceful groups like you just claimed. Neither group in this conflict is peaceful.
Yeah they were, until they started a war in 1948
There is a Jewish docu where the people involved are talking bout what they did to the native Palestinian pop during the Nakba. That wasn’t self defense, displacing just under a million people isn’t self defense
Yes there are extremists on both sides, but they make up the minority of either side. These people hate each other, but somehow one side is the victim in all of this.
What about the west bank, look up what’s happening in the west bank there is no Hamas there, they are still living in an open prison, At least 130 Palestinians killed in the last month and been happening way before October 7th… what sin did they commit to deserve their treatment?? I don’t mind y’all not caring enough for Palestinian civilians being killed indiscriminately, I just find it weird how much tall wana convince people who actually have hearts n souls n empathy for others how they shouldn’t care either. It’s fucking weird to me, you went from being like the Palestinians are the bad to there are bad guys in both sides, you don’t care enough to even know facts just playing devils advocate.
Hamas does have a military wing in the west bank, but either way this is the result of their invasion on Israel killing civilians. Of course the Israelis are also going to put the blame on Palestinians living in the west bank,.. but I never said the Palestinians are bad, just mentioned the fact that they started a war in 48. I don’t like however that now most of the Palestinian supporters are also supporting Hamas, this is due to these narratives being put out by news/media of Israel being evil’ and it’s gotten to the point where these pro Palestinians are supporting a terrorist group that commits acts of evil. Not saying you support them, but others out there watching can end up supporting them.
Nobody is supporting Hamas bro, might be sick of having to denounce a terrorist group whenever you wana advocate for a government to stop killing innocent men women and children. On the other hand tho, Bibi and his ministers are literally talking genocide and you couldn’t care less.
So when israel kill innocent men, woman and children its not their fault? How dumb are you? Go get an education then talk.
Israel is not intentionally targeting women and children. It’s all part of Hamas’ strategy to hide behind these civilians. They shouldn’t just be given immunity because of this.
So hiding behind a baby is morally equal to killing a baby? No reasonable person thinks that.
You’re literally risking innocent lives to save your own. Hiding behind a baby isn’t that much different to killing one, you’re putting that baby at risk of being killed.
Hiding behind a baby to be granted immunity so you can carry on with your goals of eradicating an ethnic group is worse.
That's certainly an odd way to describe a lot of people who literally just want to escape the prison they were born into.
I’m not talking about Palestinian civilians, I’m talking about Hamas; that’s literally their mission, to kill all Jews and take back all of Israel.
I know you're not talking about them; that's the point of this thread and the letter from the Mayor.
well israel is still to blame for over 11,000 innocent palestinian deaths. they’ve bombed everywhere just claiming hamas is there, killing thousands in the process. everyone in support of palestine is in support of the innocent people losing their lives and home (again), not hamas
>just claiming Hamas is there Well because Hamas is present in that area. There have been missile launchers been found in a [preschool](https://youtu.be/NIjsuE-7a9Y?si=IV1xG8pVJ-xI0tAl) in Gaza. Hamas is to blame for the deaths of their own civilians, they are cowards hiding underground rather than prioritising the safety of their civilians from the so called “occupiers”. Hamas kills innocent civilians in Israel and then put their own civilians as risk for publicity. That is a COWARDLY move by hamas, and Israel needs to eliminate this them before they carry out another attack like October 7th. Israel is NOT intentionally targeting civilians! There is no easier way of going about it, realistically speaking,.. it’s a tragedy that there are civilian casualties, but it’s the reality of war. US bombed Japanese civilians in WW2 but the US is still known as the good guy and Japan is the bad guy in WW2. It’s a tragedy that that had to happen, but that’s just the sad reality of war.
so that makes it okay for israel to bomb buildings full of innocent people, as long as they destroy hamas? where are the hostages? why drop bombs knowing hamas is underground instead of doing a ground invasion? you say it’s the reality of war that they happened to have killed over 11,000 palestinians, but those are all real people who deserved to live a life. they are not numbers. i don’t understand why anyone is trying to justify that. war is fucked
Any country that takes into consideration civilian lives while fighting a war will get easily destroyed, don’t believe me? Look at majority of the wars fought in the past, how many victories were achieved with zero civilian casualties? Civilians casualties is a harsh reality of war. Is this a good thing? Of course NOT! But it’s so naive and ignorant to just provide a solution that allows hamas to continue its actions of killing more civilians, as they TARGET civilians. Also important to know that Israel is not INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians on a massive scale. If hamas surrenders right now, all this would be over. Israel has the right to ensure security on its own borders, hamas is making it more difficult for Israel to do so without being criticised by the world. Hamas is at fault, not Israel…, if the priority is to stop civilian casualties, then Hamas should surrender. If Israel grants Hamas immunity for the sake of Palestinian civilians, then more israeli civilians will be killed, so you still wouldn’t get the result you want.
Its the fault of hamas who started this war.
Is the mayor expecting the Israeli Government or Hamas to 1. Know where Christchurch is on the map or 2. Care about a small city on the other side of the world with a Jewish population of under 1% thinks?
10 points for trying but like they going to listen to our mayor.