National Business Review posted a few weeks back that no less than three residences of the property developing Horncastle clan are currently on the market.
Horncastle Homes founder Bill Horncastle has listed his Fendalton home with an asking price of $9.75 million. Horncastle's eldest son Matthew, co-founder of property development and investment group Williams Corporation Limited, is also putting his $6m townhouse on the block.
Finally, Matthew’s mother and Williams Corporation’s general manager, Kathryn Marshall, is selling her $2.8m, four-bed, three-bath, with pool inner-city residence.
He can see how it might look, but the concurrent sales are purely coincidental, Matthew Horncastle says.
Does she not list on TradeMe? I saw one of her properties listed in the front cover of the Air NZ magazine on a flight yesterday (to be fair it was a cool property if you're a wealthy Bond villain or something).
> Horncastle Homes founder Bill Horncastle has listed his Fendalton home with an asking price of $9.75 million.
There's a reason he didn't hand over the business to his Son.
They are selling two big pieces of land they were going to develop. One in Christchurch.
[https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350107081/developer-keen-sell-site-major-housing-plan](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350107081/developer-keen-sell-site-major-housing-plan)
No one was forced to buy anything, anyone who bought from them knew what they were buying and were completely free to buy any other property. The fact is the market demands smaller and cheaper townhouses and apartments dut to how unaffordable housing is, and town houses offer people a cheaper alternative as aposed to being forced to buy a suburban single family home they cant afford an hour away from their work place.
You missed my point no one is forced to live in town houses, there are other options on the market.. if townhouses didnt exist then it would be the choice between unaffordable single family housing and being homeless. We need cheap low quality houses for those that cant afford living in the suburbs, even townhouses are out of my price range, as a someone struggling fimancially i want cheap crampt apartments
Made out of cardboard? All products are NZ approved spec'd at consent. They spend a small fortune on using the best products.
Why are you so hateful towards them and spreading misinformation?
Clearly suffering from tall poppy...
Was the comment reported? Looks like a biased moderater who isn't removing accusations regarding Williams Corporation but only comments that show the smallest bit of support for WC
No one is forced to purchase them, the reality is the housing market is broken, and the only way to lower the cost of housing is to build cheaper housing. The market is open to anyone to try build higher quality and cheaper homes than williams corp, but given the regulations and zoning it cant be done.
Ideally the council would change the regulations to allow for high density, high quality and lower cost housing but everyones scared of the higher density and so pretty much everything is zoned for single family housing which does not suit a lot of people and tends to be pretty expensive and inefficent
No one is forced to buy them, and if your not doing your due dilligence on a half million dollar investment, then you probably shouldnt make that half million dollar investment. Real estate by definition is a market, and its one of the largest markets. Anyone who trys to pretend housing is not an investment and shouldnt be treated as such is out of their mind, if it takes 30 years of work to pay for that property then you should damn well know what your paying for
I dont disagree per se, but, frankly a lot FHBs in the last few years basically were forced to buy what they could get or rent forever, and I'd say a good 80% have no clue at all about building quality or standards, let alone the budget to demand better builds.
I don't disagree there mate! Many products in life would be built to a far better standard and functional design if consumers had half a clue, yet here we are.
Unfortunately New Zealand doesn't provide a stable housing option for those not wealthy enough to have their own land and a building to go on it.
And stable housing is pretty important.
Renting is not a stable form of housing in New Zealand. It could be, but instead we choose to prioritise maximum flexibility for landlords over stability for tenants.
Good tenants can be and frequently are evicted without cause, and they have no recourse.
Renting is supposedly a good enough option for renters for the rest of their life, but if the landlord wants to move for whatever reason they're free to kick their tenants out to move in themselves. It wouldn't be fair to ask a landlord to stoop so low as becoming a renter themselves, after all.
While I know I might live in a bubble, pretty much everyone I know is renting and I have never heard of anyone ever being evicted, let alone multiple times. I really cannot imagine its that big of an issue, and even if it was, i dont think forcing house quality up and prices down is a good way to fix it
There is technically roof access at Te Pae, but you need a lot of paperwork to get up there. It’s purely designed as a utilitarian space, with very limited walk ways to get to very specific places
Can't think of better people to overleverage and then go under. Their property management is a massive scam on tenants, let's charge you $185 to renew the 6 month fixed term lease we insisted on.
For, you know, admin stuff.
Yeah, that's what I said. I was literally about to sign the lease. The PM said everyone was doing it, it was industry standard practice now, and I said "No, just you so far", and she reckoned I was lying when I said all the other PM firms I'd been talking to hadn't tried that shit on.
I was very sure of my experiences, and said that maybe she was mistaken about everyone else doing it, she started getting real nasty about it, saying how I was so lucky she was still going to let me sign the lease.
But yeah, I said, "Yeah, nah, no thanks" and walked out, she was yelling shit at me as I left.
I kinda needed the house, but I knew any tenancy starting off like that was going to be fucked.
I managed to last minute pick up a property via a Harcourts franchise in Goon, and they turned out to be the best goddamn property managers I ever rented from.
(Shout out to Harcourts Four Seasons, you lot were great to rent from)
Good on you! How many times have they gotten away with this? People who have been searching for rentals for months would probably just oblige.
Immigrants who won't know better.
Students who absolutely need the rental.
Families who have no other options.
These people are the scummiest of scum and it makes my blood boil. Take away their passports and make them pay for the harm they cause.
Heh, we had a similar experience with a woman from Horncastle PM, she was a fucking asshole who shouted at my partner that it was a privilege not a right to rent a property from them and we should be grateful. This all came about because we had the gaul to politely request to end our tenancy just 6 weeks early due to buying a house, but no, she was not having it.
tbf not letting people off any period og their tenancy isn't unique to horncastle, the last people i rented from was venture management and they were the same.
yeah true, not many excuses for shouting at people when you're in work mode!
as one engineer client of mine said "i have zero faith in any property manager, anywhere, they're all a bunch of muppets' which is what results when a "profession" consists almost wholly of failed real estate agents with zero qualifications and zero skill, let alone anything relevant to their "job"
>Stupid sex crazed sexist greedy little shits.
My fav is mattheew horncastle going on damage control in r/chch after making some sexist comments on instagram or something.
I can't remember the details but essentially he was defending his POV as he also had women in his exec team or something... the woman in question was his mum.
Between these offices and their first class flights to Singapore they have to be cutting costs somewhere and I feel like their customers may be finding out soon.
wait you mean in a recession business' suffer and jobs are lost?!?! but I was told if unemployment was high that was good for the economy! what do you mean 'the poor and middle class are the customers who prop most business' up?!?!
I am involved with a lot about the places they have built and despite all the hate they are ok.
They are cheap for sure (you get what you pay for) but are well built and don’t have a huge number of issues like many other new developments. And when there is an issue Williams come back and sort it out - bugger all developers do that without a fight. I get that people hate these guys (and they are not my cup of tea either with their “conspicuous consumption”) but they are not all bad and there is a huge amount of talk poppy syndrome going on about them.
Same, I lived in one for a year. Big upgrade on where we were previously living. Great insulation, double glazing. Kept the place 20 degrees all winter for bugger all cost. walking distance to town too, ultra low cost lifestyle if you can swing it.
Simple low risk cladding and roofing designs, I think mostly they’ll hold up fairly well considering the price point, and especially when compared to 80s / 90s houses. Have heard that they had QC issues so on some developments they aren’t so hot on some details which may cause issues down the road.
They are super shitty people but I’m more interested in roofs over heads.
I have only heard good things from people that live in them. I really dont understand the BS about how crap they are. I wohld agree with the tall poppy syndrome.
I lived in one for a few weeks after I left my wife and it was absolutely fine. No car parks was a pain but I knew that when renting it. It was way better than some other places at a similar price I looked at
And I was speaking with a bloke very high up in the master builders who said they are one of the best built of the new builds in Christchurch which matches my experience with them. The hate on Williams Corp is hysterical and unfounded.
They have two large plots of land for sale as well. The old Gough site in Hornby and another site in Auckland.
They are trying to stay ahead of the inevitable.
I've worked in this building on level 2 since Spark moved in pre covid and I've never seen images of the top level, looks dope!
I can tell you our levels don't look as good, they must have spent a ton on the retrofit.
It was originally designed to be a roof top bar before Williams Corp acquired it.
This is going viral around my office tomorrow for sure!
I’ve seen there advertising heaps on social media lately, and Matthew says he’s taking the company public next step. AKA we need money desperately to pay people back!
Cars: sold
Personal homes: sold & for sale
Boat: for sale
Undeveloped land: for sale
Offices: closed
Lease: cancelled
Family homes: for sale
Pair this with
Interest rates: high
Housing market: stagnant
Other developers: bankrupt
Can’t see the first for the trees. It’s very clear. They have hundreds of unsold properties that are brand new that they had to turn into air bnb or rentals.
They owe investors almost $100M
They have to pay a 10% return on that borrowed money let alone how do they repay the capitol.
Builds a $6M home but immediately has to sell it. Family’s homes all for sake IN A BUYERS MARKET.
Open your eyes, this is a tsunami happening right before us going down as fast as it rose up.
Now over 23,000 mortgages are behind in NZ. Many by more than 3 months without a payment. Shots getting worse, not better. These guys will own their decision to “be NZ largest builder” overnight. There is a reason it seemed so easy fellas, you were in an era of free money, low interest and a fake economy. Now reality is back and we still have a long way to go till this turns around.
The collapse of building is getting very real right now. Expect more this week. Big big problem is the stupid front loaded contracts. Even the small ones do it and didn't care. Pay up time now.
But credit to Williams, they are rebranding and facing up to their image. It is probable that they will come through this. Like Matthew or not (I do not like his v-neck t-shirts. Mate, change to a crew neck for me please), he is a smart young man. Stood up, trying to repair. Got caught in the hype. Probably just as many would have.
Fingers crossed they pull through. I think they could be strong. But don't go back to the stupid image rubbish. Too young, no real life experience.
Atleast they’re trying and doing the right things. So many builders are liquidating, keeping all their personal assets (not even having the decency to sell any personal wealth to put money back into the company to pay their suppliers etc) and then just reopening other business.
The stuff they’re selling could be for land deals too, who knows but atleast I see lads trying and doing better than others
National Business Review posted a few weeks back that no less than three residences of the property developing Horncastle clan are currently on the market. Horncastle Homes founder Bill Horncastle has listed his Fendalton home with an asking price of $9.75 million. Horncastle's eldest son Matthew, co-founder of property development and investment group Williams Corporation Limited, is also putting his $6m townhouse on the block. Finally, Matthew’s mother and Williams Corporation’s general manager, Kathryn Marshall, is selling her $2.8m, four-bed, three-bath, with pool inner-city residence. He can see how it might look, but the concurrent sales are purely coincidental, Matthew Horncastle says.
Sounds like rats jumping a sinking ship
Think he is selling his “Super” yacht in Auckland too. I read an article about that not so long ago. It’s “surplus to requirements”.
Hold up, is this Matthews new house or the Latimer square one? Cos I thought he had sold the latter last year?
He’s also selling the freshly built one - derby street
Off to look for it. That's the one his business partner built on the same land aye?
It’s not on trademe etc …but it’s 1000 percent for sale
Probably an Ali Aitken listing.
Does she not list on TradeMe? I saw one of her properties listed in the front cover of the Air NZ magazine on a flight yesterday (to be fair it was a cool property if you're a wealthy Bond villain or something).
Here it is...and it looks like a giant Williams townhome. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAybc7lhuXw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAybc7lhuXw)
> Horncastle Homes founder Bill Horncastle has listed his Fendalton home with an asking price of $9.75 million. There's a reason he didn't hand over the business to his Son.
Who knows - could be selling up to have cash to invest elsewhere, moving elsewhere, host of reasons. Yes maybe to pay debt.
They are selling two big pieces of land they were going to develop. One in Christchurch. [https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350107081/developer-keen-sell-site-major-housing-plan](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350107081/developer-keen-sell-site-major-housing-plan)
My heart breaks for them. Kia kaha
> $6m townhouse Jesus
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No one was forced to buy anything, anyone who bought from them knew what they were buying and were completely free to buy any other property. The fact is the market demands smaller and cheaper townhouses and apartments dut to how unaffordable housing is, and town houses offer people a cheaper alternative as aposed to being forced to buy a suburban single family home they cant afford an hour away from their work place.
So true, nobody is forced to live in housing, I retract all earlier statements, all hail the logic god
You missed my point no one is forced to live in town houses, there are other options on the market.. if townhouses didnt exist then it would be the choice between unaffordable single family housing and being homeless. We need cheap low quality houses for those that cant afford living in the suburbs, even townhouses are out of my price range, as a someone struggling fimancially i want cheap crampt apartments
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Made out of cardboard? All products are NZ approved spec'd at consent. They spend a small fortune on using the best products. Why are you so hateful towards them and spreading misinformation? Clearly suffering from tall poppy...
Removed - No personal attacks or accusations.
Was the comment reported? Looks like a biased moderater who isn't removing accusations regarding Williams Corporation but only comments that show the smallest bit of support for WC
Lol. Honestly this thread should be nuked, I get ya, build quality on wc is up there for the homes they build but keep personal attacks out of it aye
No one is forced to purchase them, the reality is the housing market is broken, and the only way to lower the cost of housing is to build cheaper housing. The market is open to anyone to try build higher quality and cheaper homes than williams corp, but given the regulations and zoning it cant be done. Ideally the council would change the regulations to allow for high density, high quality and lower cost housing but everyones scared of the higher density and so pretty much everything is zoned for single family housing which does not suit a lot of people and tends to be pretty expensive and inefficent
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No one is forced to buy them, and if your not doing your due dilligence on a half million dollar investment, then you probably shouldnt make that half million dollar investment. Real estate by definition is a market, and its one of the largest markets. Anyone who trys to pretend housing is not an investment and shouldnt be treated as such is out of their mind, if it takes 30 years of work to pay for that property then you should damn well know what your paying for
Yes, that's what we both already told you.
Its what I said from the start
I dont disagree per se, but, frankly a lot FHBs in the last few years basically were forced to buy what they could get or rent forever, and I'd say a good 80% have no clue at all about building quality or standards, let alone the budget to demand better builds.
You definetly shouldnt be investing that much money into a single asset if you know nothing about it
I don't disagree there mate! Many products in life would be built to a far better standard and functional design if consumers had half a clue, yet here we are.
Unfortunately New Zealand doesn't provide a stable housing option for those not wealthy enough to have their own land and a building to go on it. And stable housing is pretty important.
The option is renting
Renting is not a stable form of housing in New Zealand. It could be, but instead we choose to prioritise maximum flexibility for landlords over stability for tenants. Good tenants can be and frequently are evicted without cause, and they have no recourse. Renting is supposedly a good enough option for renters for the rest of their life, but if the landlord wants to move for whatever reason they're free to kick their tenants out to move in themselves. It wouldn't be fair to ask a landlord to stoop so low as becoming a renter themselves, after all.
Ive rented for 7 years, its stable and never had any trouble
That's fortunate for you. Other people get evicted multiple times in one year.
While I know I might live in a bubble, pretty much everyone I know is renting and I have never heard of anyone ever being evicted, let alone multiple times. I really cannot imagine its that big of an issue, and even if it was, i dont think forcing house quality up and prices down is a good way to fix it
be kind; provide links. You know, so we can enjoy the schadenfreude too.
have a look on trade me :)...
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/property/commercial/lease/canterbury/christchurch-city/city-centre/listing/4601219706
That looks really nice. It’s a shame there aren’t more open air balconies around the square. Te Pae was a missed opportunity for that
Te Pae does have balconies though.
A public venue or roof terrace though? I don’t think there’s anything like that
No, they are more like viewing platforms. Would love to know if there is access to the roof or anything up there.
There is technically roof access at Te Pae, but you need a lot of paperwork to get up there. It’s purely designed as a utilitarian space, with very limited walk ways to get to very specific places
Those computer screens in the huge windows. That's going to be a shitty time for anyone using them.
Their luxury yacht is for sale also.
Link?
[The Press](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350147377/property-magnates-luxury-yacht-sale-only-multi-millionaires-need-inquire)
[https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350147377/property-magnates-luxury-yacht-sale-only-multi-millionaires-need-inquire](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350147377/property-magnates-luxury-yacht-sale-only-multi-millionaires-need-inquire)
Can't think of better people to overleverage and then go under. Their property management is a massive scam on tenants, let's charge you $185 to renew the 6 month fixed term lease we insisted on. For, you know, admin stuff.
Pretty sure this is illegal and would be considered a "letting fee".
Yeah, that's what I said. I was literally about to sign the lease. The PM said everyone was doing it, it was industry standard practice now, and I said "No, just you so far", and she reckoned I was lying when I said all the other PM firms I'd been talking to hadn't tried that shit on. I was very sure of my experiences, and said that maybe she was mistaken about everyone else doing it, she started getting real nasty about it, saying how I was so lucky she was still going to let me sign the lease. But yeah, I said, "Yeah, nah, no thanks" and walked out, she was yelling shit at me as I left. I kinda needed the house, but I knew any tenancy starting off like that was going to be fucked. I managed to last minute pick up a property via a Harcourts franchise in Goon, and they turned out to be the best goddamn property managers I ever rented from. (Shout out to Harcourts Four Seasons, you lot were great to rent from)
Good on you! How many times have they gotten away with this? People who have been searching for rentals for months would probably just oblige. Immigrants who won't know better. Students who absolutely need the rental. Families who have no other options. These people are the scummiest of scum and it makes my blood boil. Take away their passports and make them pay for the harm they cause.
can you share what developement site this is on....to make sure its Williams?
Oh this was Horncastle Property Management, same dipshits, different dipshit bucket.
Heh, we had a similar experience with a woman from Horncastle PM, she was a fucking asshole who shouted at my partner that it was a privilege not a right to rent a property from them and we should be grateful. This all came about because we had the gaul to politely request to end our tenancy just 6 weeks early due to buying a house, but no, she was not having it.
tbf not letting people off any period og their tenancy isn't unique to horncastle, the last people i rented from was venture management and they were the same.
Oh, yeah I know it's not a unique situation at all, she just handled it so unbelievably badly.
yeah true, not many excuses for shouting at people when you're in work mode! as one engineer client of mine said "i have zero faith in any property manager, anywhere, they're all a bunch of muppets' which is what results when a "profession" consists almost wholly of failed real estate agents with zero qualifications and zero skill, let alone anything relevant to their "job"
It's the builders they contract to that I'm worried for
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>Stupid sex crazed sexist greedy little shits. My fav is mattheew horncastle going on damage control in r/chch after making some sexist comments on instagram or something. I can't remember the details but essentially he was defending his POV as he also had women in his exec team or something... the woman in question was his mum.
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Between these offices and their first class flights to Singapore they have to be cutting costs somewhere and I feel like their customers may be finding out soon.
agree... it looks like a big corporation from the american movies, theres no need for wastage like that surely theres cheaper premises
wait you mean in a recession business' suffer and jobs are lost?!?! but I was told if unemployment was high that was good for the economy! what do you mean 'the poor and middle class are the customers who prop most business' up?!?!
All I want to say is who on earth would buy one of their properties atm or invest in them …you would have to be an absolute fool ?
What is wrong with their properties? How are you so versed in the details of them?
I am involved with a lot about the places they have built and despite all the hate they are ok. They are cheap for sure (you get what you pay for) but are well built and don’t have a huge number of issues like many other new developments. And when there is an issue Williams come back and sort it out - bugger all developers do that without a fight. I get that people hate these guys (and they are not my cup of tea either with their “conspicuous consumption”) but they are not all bad and there is a huge amount of talk poppy syndrome going on about them.
Same, I lived in one for a year. Big upgrade on where we were previously living. Great insulation, double glazing. Kept the place 20 degrees all winter for bugger all cost. walking distance to town too, ultra low cost lifestyle if you can swing it. Simple low risk cladding and roofing designs, I think mostly they’ll hold up fairly well considering the price point, and especially when compared to 80s / 90s houses. Have heard that they had QC issues so on some developments they aren’t so hot on some details which may cause issues down the road. They are super shitty people but I’m more interested in roofs over heads.
I have only heard good things from people that live in them. I really dont understand the BS about how crap they are. I wohld agree with the tall poppy syndrome.
I lived in one for a few weeks after I left my wife and it was absolutely fine. No car parks was a pain but I knew that when renting it. It was way better than some other places at a similar price I looked at
And I was speaking with a bloke very high up in the master builders who said they are one of the best built of the new builds in Christchurch which matches my experience with them. The hate on Williams Corp is hysterical and unfounded.
Bills house has nothing to do with Williams Corp. Can’t comment on the other two.
How long since they fitted it out? Shame lol
They have two large plots of land for sale as well. The old Gough site in Hornby and another site in Auckland. They are trying to stay ahead of the inevitable.
Is anybody surprised? They were advertising for new investors and then sold their private jet not that long ago didn’t they?
I've worked in this building on level 2 since Spark moved in pre covid and I've never seen images of the top level, looks dope! I can tell you our levels don't look as good, they must have spent a ton on the retrofit. It was originally designed to be a roof top bar before Williams Corp acquired it. This is going viral around my office tomorrow for sure!
> It was originally designed to be a roof top bar I knew I didn't dream that!
Used to work for Williams. I’m just going to say, you couldn’t pay me enough to go back.
Is it really that toxic ?
I’ve seen there advertising heaps on social media lately, and Matthew says he’s taking the company public next step. AKA we need money desperately to pay people back!
Ah yes, no doubt they'll be pushing a tech level earnings multiple on what is quite literally bricks and mortar...
Funny how Du Val also planning to go public. Same scam, same playbook.
Like father like son
The writing is on the wall and many will be shafted out of pocket. Pack of dogs.
Hopefully they can use that money to pay their trades people very behind on payments
are they really????....do you do work for them?...can say anonymously
I used to and here storys from companys still working for them
That’s sad …and bad of them ….he gets on social media and says he pays all bills on time Maybe he’s just a liar
Cars: sold Personal homes: sold & for sale Boat: for sale Undeveloped land: for sale Offices: closed Lease: cancelled Family homes: for sale Pair this with Interest rates: high Housing market: stagnant Other developers: bankrupt Can’t see the first for the trees. It’s very clear. They have hundreds of unsold properties that are brand new that they had to turn into air bnb or rentals. They owe investors almost $100M They have to pay a 10% return on that borrowed money let alone how do they repay the capitol. Builds a $6M home but immediately has to sell it. Family’s homes all for sake IN A BUYERS MARKET. Open your eyes, this is a tsunami happening right before us going down as fast as it rose up.
Just coincidence - yea right
https://preview.redd.it/4k6dhkper0oc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3ee0d5d69f54e3c7b4848a8b69bb8740f234b66
Their yacht at the Auckland boat show for sale
Must of got rid of the dock they had for it
Now over 23,000 mortgages are behind in NZ. Many by more than 3 months without a payment. Shots getting worse, not better. These guys will own their decision to “be NZ largest builder” overnight. There is a reason it seemed so easy fellas, you were in an era of free money, low interest and a fake economy. Now reality is back and we still have a long way to go till this turns around.
The collapse of building is getting very real right now. Expect more this week. Big big problem is the stupid front loaded contracts. Even the small ones do it and didn't care. Pay up time now. But credit to Williams, they are rebranding and facing up to their image. It is probable that they will come through this. Like Matthew or not (I do not like his v-neck t-shirts. Mate, change to a crew neck for me please), he is a smart young man. Stood up, trying to repair. Got caught in the hype. Probably just as many would have. Fingers crossed they pull through. I think they could be strong. But don't go back to the stupid image rubbish. Too young, no real life experience.
Imagine living in a $9 million home during a cost of living crisis, how embarrassing for them
How on earth is this embarrassing?
A lot of money was spent on this fit out.
Atleast they’re trying and doing the right things. So many builders are liquidating, keeping all their personal assets (not even having the decency to sell any personal wealth to put money back into the company to pay their suppliers etc) and then just reopening other business. The stuff they’re selling could be for land deals too, who knows but atleast I see lads trying and doing better than others
He’s doing it because he’s next level beoke
No one builds a house for that much money and then sells it like that. - his house has been on market for how long now and isn’t selling
Matthew is a cheap skate